Author Topic: Moonstone, The by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online  (Read 55921 times)

Scottieluvr

  • Posts: 127
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #120 on: April 15, 2013, 02:55:12 PM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

The Moonstone
Wilkie Collins


 In T.S. Eliot called The Moonstone "the first and greatest English detective novel." Told from the standpoint of several, very different, very British characters, it is the funny, irreverent, dramatic, romantic, very British story of the theft of an Indian jewel taken from the eye of an idol and then stolen again from a very British country house by mysterious Indians. Come and join us: I'll bet you can't guess "whodunit" and what they did!
  
 Discussion Schedule:
April 15-21: Through section XI in Gabriel Betteredge's narrative, ending with: "A day or two after, however, the darkness lifted a little.  How, and with what result, you shall presently see."
April 21-?:   The rest of Betteredge's narrative, up to THE END OF THE FIRST PERIOD, stopping when you come to Miss Clack's narrative.


Related Links::Gutenberg electronic text

For Your Consideration
April 15-21: Through section XI  

1. What function does Betteredge's long introduction serve? How would you describe the mood that he sets?  What point is Collins making with his use of Robinson Crusoe?

2. What recent event of that time would have made the three Indians particularly sinister to Collins' readers?

3. Is "the Shivering Sands" a real place? Do you know any such place?

4. What would you say is the main characteristic of each of the characters?

5. Do you find Betteredge racist? Sexist? Why, or why not?

6. Do you have any theories as to how the jewels were stolen? (No fair telling, if you've read the book!)

7. Why do you think Rachel is acting so strangely after the robbery?

8. What ground did Franklin and Godfrey have for their opposite opinions of the police's competence? What does this tell us about their character?

9. What kind of police organization existed at the time?


DISCUSSION LEADERS: JoanK &  PatH

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I remember my one experience with morphine, too. ZULEMA. I went off into la-la land and gave a long speech to my roommate on the earthshaking beauty of the hospital wallpaper! I'm impressed that the authors of the time were able to write anything coherant.

Reminds me of the time my husband underwent surgery, and they gave him Vicodine.  He swore we had a shark in the pond that was inside the barn, and that children were pouring corn flakes to feed the sharks.  He worried they would fall in and get eaten. THEN! He accused me of throwing away a piece of foam that belonged to his cousin Rick, who stopped by earlier asking for it. THEN! He called into work and told them he would be in to run labs for them.

The real story:  We don't have a barn or pond, and sharks don't live in southwest Michigan. His cousin Rick lives in Lewellen Nebraska. It took me getting snippy with his business manager before they believed my husband was in no shape to work, much less drive a car.

 ;D
Scottieluvr aka Pamela

"Above all, be the heroine of your life, not the victim." - Nora Ephron

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #121 on: April 15, 2013, 02:57:09 PM »
That's hilarious (Now. It probably wasn't at the time!)

Scottieluvr

  • Posts: 127
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #122 on: April 15, 2013, 03:01:14 PM »
[…] I am amazed at how modern his writing seems to me. Delightful.

I couldn’t help noticing his use of “to-night”, “to-day”, “to-morrow”.  And then the word “metal” for the word “meddle”. I love period literature and discovering how writing evolved over the years, decades, centuries.
Scottieluvr aka Pamela

"Above all, be the heroine of your life, not the victim." - Nora Ephron

Scottieluvr

  • Posts: 127
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #123 on: April 15, 2013, 03:06:07 PM »
That's hilarious (Now. It probably wasn't at the time!)

No it was a bit unnerving at the time, but its so hilarious now.  The really funny part was, as he regaled me with all these happenings as mentioned, hubby just finished drinking water for taking his next Victoine dose. OH GREAT! Another 8 hours of hallucinations.  :D
Scottieluvr aka Pamela

"Above all, be the heroine of your life, not the victim." - Nora Ephron

Scottieluvr

  • Posts: 127
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #124 on: April 15, 2013, 03:19:46 PM »
[…] "To Wilkie Collins, the Moonstone is the signifier of all things that humanity strives for, material and spiritual."

Wow. Does that give the whole story another level of meaning?


Perceiving this statement in relationship to wealth and then reading the first 60 plus pages of this book, I agree with the statement; riches, power, worship, etc are the foundation of every person’s pursuit in life. Of course there are varying degrees of such holdings too. For some having a home and loved ones leaves them feeling rich, powerful and respected. On the extreme opposite are those who deem extreme wealth and power not enough, craving more and more. Within the story there varying degrees of wealth: from the cook, to the Head Inspector, to the Lady of the House.

Then Betteredge’s version of spiritualism is odd but thought-provoking; his using Robinson Crusoe as a guideline to life’s solutions for personal enrichment and decision making.
Scottieluvr aka Pamela

"Above all, be the heroine of your life, not the victim." - Nora Ephron

Frybabe

  • Posts: 9951
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #125 on: April 15, 2013, 03:25:40 PM »
The link has spoilers? Really, that sucks! I assume you mean the one about The Moonstone and India. The article looks interesting, but I just skimmed it to see which of the many, many wars and mutinies fit the time line, also skimming I saw reference to the Koh-i-Noor diamond which must have created quite a sensation when it arrived in England. Oscar had a vet appointment this afternoon, which is why the rush before I forgot it all. I certainly don't want to know who done it yet either.

The references to Robinson Caruso make me want to reread it. It was sooo long ago, that I remember the basic story, but not the philosophical aspects which our man Betteredge seems to have gotten from it.

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10921
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #126 on: April 15, 2013, 03:31:56 PM »
Yes, that's the one; it's too bad, because the link has some excellent points.  I suggest we post it again at the end of the discussion, when we can appreciate it safely.

I read Robinson Crusoe as a teenager, and have almost completely forgotten it.  I suspect Betteredge is reading a lot into the book.


JudeS

  • Posts: 1162
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #127 on: April 15, 2013, 07:17:16 PM »
Oh Pat, I feel like a bull who has just seen a red cape before it's eyes.
Betteridge is not just reading something into Robinson Crusoe but reading into it what is there already.
The book, one of the most popularly read in the world till today (it was written in 1719) is considered to have marked the beginning of realistic fiction.
James Joyce noted that Crusoe is the symbol of the British Conquests;" manly,independent,unconcious cruelty, persistence,slow but efficient intelligence,sexual apathy,tacturnity."

WE are not discussing that book or Defoe but it's seeming simplicity covers many fascinating thoughts. I'm sure Collins knew that when he chose this particular book to be the guide to the seemingly simple Betteridge.

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #128 on: April 15, 2013, 09:40:43 PM »
I must admit when I first read The Moonstone (decades ago) it led me to read Robinson Crusoe. I was sorely disappointed! Where were the pearls of wisdom? I couldn't find them.

What do you all think?

Jonathan

  • Posts: 1697
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #129 on: April 15, 2013, 10:53:47 PM »
Reading Robinson Crusoe. 'Where were the pearls of wisdom?' Good question, JoanK. Well, Crusoe's comment that 'what is loved today will be despised tomorrow' helps Betteredge to accept the promotion that Lady Julia offers him. RB is his favorite reading. No doubt he admires Crusoe's resourceful nature and his ability of self-preservation. I believe that Betteredge saw many other English virtues in the adventurer. Of course the adventures must have appealed to a man who had spent a lifetime in 'service'. More than fifty years he has served the family! Probably never even got to London.

I enjoyed reading Frybabe's link to the victorianweb. No spoilers in it for me. I was impressef by the critique with all its background information. Perhaps even a bit more than I cared to know. But it's all summed up beautifylly.

'The Moonstone may be viewed not as a response to a national insurgency and or European determination to keep the native in his place, but rather as a love story between two people who only come to see each other for what they are after misjudgments, misunderstandings, accidental and intended deceptions, and considerable self-sacrifice.'

That's the part we might miss if we're too preoccupied with 'whodunnit'.

Zulema

  • Posts: 75
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #130 on: April 15, 2013, 11:06:52 PM »
First, I have to give thanks to Jane, the tech expert, whom I sent my picture and she put it up.  I didn't want to be the only faceless one here.

Jude, the style I find more 18th century than 19th, though the concerns are modern.  Human nature does not really change, our circumstances and surroundings do.  Some of Collins's writing reminds me of Sterne, like the going back in time, pretending to need to explain things from the very beginning to a fault, apologizing for getting lost along the way, etc.  I am just into the Second Period, and he is certainly having his fun with Miss Clack's pieties.  Reminds me a bit of Trollope. My mind makes connections.

I had never read The Moonstone and I am so happy to have been given this opportunity to do so in this collective way. 

marcie

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 7802
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #131 on: April 15, 2013, 11:59:16 PM »
My edition of the book has an introduction by PD James in which she states:
"Collins was meticulous in his research; it was a matter of pride in him to get the historical, forensic, and medical details right. He seems to have read several standard books on India, where the opening section of the novel is set, and corresponded with a member of the Indian Civil Service. He obtained information about the Koh-i-Noor diamond from a book on precious stones published in 1865, and he claims that he verified 'the physiological experiment which occupied a prominent place in the closing scenes of The Moonstone... not only from books but from living authorities as well.' He himself was one of those authorities. He took large doses of laudanum to assuage the agonies of gout, and the portrait of Ezra Jennings, the opium user, is partly autobiographical."

It's interesting to me that Collins tried to make his book as realistic as possible. He's known as a "sensationalist" writer. Anthony Trollope, who was a friend of Collins, wrote in 1883 that "All this [Collins being sensational] is, I think, a mistake, which arises from the inability of the imperfect artist to be at the same time realistic and sensational. A good novel should be both, and both in the highest degree.... Let an author so tell his tale as to touch his reader's heart and draw his tears, and he has, so far, sone his work well. Truth let there be -- truth of description, truth of character, human truth as to men and women. If there be such truth, I do not know that a novel can be too sensational."

These thoughts provide for me a helpful foundation for reading the book.

Frybabe

  • Posts: 9951
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #132 on: April 16, 2013, 07:15:46 AM »
In the book there is mention of the Magdalene asylum from which the new maid was released. It piqued my interest because I had just read another book which mentioned it. They generally have a nasty reputation.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_asylum




JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #133 on: April 16, 2013, 08:20:48 AM »
Quote
"Asylums for such girls and women and others believed to be of poor moral character, such as prostitutes, operated throughout Europe and North America for much of the nineteenth and well into the twentieth century..."

Until I read the link to the Magdalene asylum, Fry, I hadn't associated Rosanna with prostitution at all.  I thought her offense had been theft - and that this would be one reason to associate her with the missing moonstone - in the minds of some.  In the back of my mind, I can't forget how she blushes and brightens when Franklin Blake appears on the scene.  The reason for this has yet to be disclosed.

Wasn't it unusual for Wilkie to choose Betteredge for a narrator?  Servants at this time were simply not heard from.  Wilkie portrays him as a man of principle, of strong opinions, (some sexist, some racist, though willing to make exceptions)...He will not be the one to give away Rosanna's past life.  It seems that everyone - from Lady Julia, to Franklin -  to Rosanna trust him and confide in him.  What better choice for a narrator - an omnicient narrator at that.
But he seems to have no confidante no close friend...no one to turn to for advice -

Quote
- "No doubt he admires Crusoe's resourceful nature and his ability of self-preservation."
 Jonathan, both men seem to be in the same boat - or the same island. :D  I can see where Mr. Betteredge takes comfort in reading how Crusoe deals with his isolation and manages to survive - remarkably well.  Crusoe's experience have become Betteredge's bible, words to live by.

ps Jude - Yes, you did see through the remark - ..."Wilkie plants these seeds ...without our even being aware of them."  He tosses out so many seeds that we are easily distracted from the obvious...    My main quibble with so many mysteries - so many of the solutions come about from clues that have not been introduced at any time in the story - I find Poe guilty of this quite often.  I get the feeling that Wilkie will not disappoint in this way...  

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10921
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #134 on: April 16, 2013, 08:49:37 AM »
I urge anyone who hasn't read the book before not to read ahead.  There are lots of plot twists and turns and it will be more fun to discover what's going on with the others.

You only get one chance to be surprised and puzzled by a mystery, and it's fun to have company.

If everyone is finding this too hard, we can speed up the schedule.  Nothing is cast in stone here.

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10921
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #135 on: April 16, 2013, 08:59:52 AM »
The place Roseanna came from is described as a reformatory where women who have come from prison are given a chance to get back to honest ways.  Roseanna had been a thief, and had served her prison sentence.  I don't think she had been a prostitute, though later we learn that her mother had been.  I suspect Lady Verinder would not have taken an ex-prostitute into the house.

In that article about the Magdalene asylums, I was amused by the remark that what made them die out was the washing machine--there was no longer a market for laundresses.

Frybabe

  • Posts: 9951
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #136 on: April 16, 2013, 09:36:58 AM »
JoanP, the Magdalene asylums originally started out to reform prostitutes, but they soon expanded into other areas such as theft as well as unwed mothers (the babies were often taken away from them and given up for adoption), and children of parents who thought their little darling was just too pretty for her own good or potentially promiscuous or children who became orphaned. Some poor parents, often encouraged by parish priests, to see the asylums as a means to improve their lot as well as the child's.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21345995
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/woman/real_life/4812617/For-three-years-I-was-a-child-slave-in-the-Magdalene-Laundries.html

The brunt of the articles about the Magdalene asylums are about the Irish institutions. There were many more in England and probably elsewhere. There were some in Australia that were operated somewhat differently; I haven't looked into the differences. I did see an article somewhere (can't find it now) that said that a number of the girls went on to be nuns themselves. I assume that the abusive practices not a part of all the homes. There are those who reported not seeing any abuse during some of the recent investigations, but plenty of reports as those above indicate that there was mental as well as physical abuse.

I think some of what we call abuse today was common practice years ago and thought of as disciplinary measures and character building rather than abuse. Along those lines, I remember some of my Catholic playmates when I was young talking about knuckle rappings at Catholic school, and don't forget the paddle was a common disciplinary measure at one time. Today, a teacher may not touch a child or stand him/her in a corner for a schoolroom infraction.
 

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #137 on: April 16, 2013, 09:38:54 AM »
But it is strongly suggested that Rosanna has met Franklin Blake before - in some capacity. If not as a prostitute, then what?  Such a relationship puts his character in question, doesn't it?
Yet, I didn't notice any sign of recognition on his part, did you?

PatH, I wonder at Lady Julia bringing a convicted thief into her household.  I suspect  there were mitigating circumstances that we are not told about, don't you?

Fry.. - not the misbehaving girls, but I recall the 8th grade boys getting ear-boings on a regular basis...

Frybabe

  • Posts: 9951
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #138 on: April 16, 2013, 09:50:23 AM »
Sorry, I was modifying my last post and missed you last.

Yes, it puzzles me greatly what the relationship is between Blake and Rosanna. I suppose we must bide our time and expect an answer later in the book.

The other thing that is puzzling so far, is how the Indians seemed to know where the diamond was and when it would be there. What a spy network they must have. Does anyone believe the little British child is truly clairvoyant? What on earth is that "black ink" that is poured into his hand?

Scottieluvr

  • Posts: 127
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #139 on: April 16, 2013, 12:03:28 PM »
In the book there is mention of the Magdalene asylum from which the new maid was released. It piqued my interest because I had just read another book which mentioned it. They generally have a nasty reputation.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_asylum

I suspected Rosanna had endured harsh treatment while in prison, and this link only confirm those suspicions. Its awful how humane intentions become nonfiction horror stories.  :(
Scottieluvr aka Pamela

"Above all, be the heroine of your life, not the victim." - Nora Ephron

Scottieluvr

  • Posts: 127
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #140 on: April 16, 2013, 12:10:05 PM »
[...] In that article about the Magdalene asylums, I was amused by the remark that what made them die out was the washing machine--there was no longer a market for laundresses.

I noted that as well.  Oh no, this form of a sweat shop couldn't die out due to humane reason, instead by a machine invention.  :o  ;)

Also, I can't help but think the proprietors of these places were more interested in lording over those less fortunate and not progressing a business.  :-\
Scottieluvr aka Pamela

"Above all, be the heroine of your life, not the victim." - Nora Ephron

Scottieluvr

  • Posts: 127
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #141 on: April 16, 2013, 12:27:07 PM »
[...]I think some of what we call abuse today was common practice years ago and thought of as disciplinary measures and character building rather than abuse. Along those lines, I remember some of my Catholic playmates when I was young talking about knuckle rappings at Catholic school, and don't forget the paddle was a common disciplinary measure at one time. Today, a teacher may not touch a child or stand him/her in a corner for a schoolroom infraction.

I had (have) cousins who were devoted Catholics and spoke of ruler rapping across the knuckles, kneeling while saying the "Hail Mary" numerous time in repentance for some childhood infraction, etc... When I was in elementary school I remember "The Board" used on children who continuously broke the rules. Heck!  My parents used a board on my sister and I growing up...until we broke it rough housing one afternoon.  ;)
Scottieluvr aka Pamela

"Above all, be the heroine of your life, not the victim." - Nora Ephron

Scottieluvr

  • Posts: 127
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #142 on: April 16, 2013, 12:28:16 PM »
[...]Some poor parents, often encouraged by parish priests, to see the asylums as a means to improve their lot as well as the child's.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21345995
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/woman/real_life/4812617/For-three-years-I-was-a-child-slave-in-the-Magdalene-Laundries.html

This article breaks my heart... :'(
Scottieluvr aka Pamela

"Above all, be the heroine of your life, not the victim." - Nora Ephron

Scottieluvr

  • Posts: 127
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #143 on: April 16, 2013, 12:33:26 PM »
But it is strongly suggested that Rosanna has met Franklin Blake before - in some capacity. If not as a prostitute, then what?  Such a relationship puts his character in question, doesn't it?
Yet, I didn't notice any sign of recognition on his part, did you?

I noted that as well, that Blake didn't seem to recognize Rosanna any time they were in each others company. And yes, I questioned his character due to Rosanna's behavior when I first read about them together; at the Shimmering Sands. Since someone mentioned Rosanna's mother was a prostitute, I wonder if maybe he visited her mother why Rosanna may remember him so fondly.
Scottieluvr aka Pamela

"Above all, be the heroine of your life, not the victim." - Nora Ephron

Scottieluvr

  • Posts: 127
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #144 on: April 16, 2013, 12:50:11 PM »
The other thing that is puzzling so far, is how the Indians seemed to know where the diamond was and when it would be there. What a spy network they must have. Does anyone believe the little British child is truly clairvoyant? What on earth is that "black ink" that is poured into his hand?

Glad you brought those points up, because I too wondered about it too. I believe the Indians followed Blake from London, taking up the detail of following the diamond around since the previous ones were murdered. I may regret it in the end, but the Indians don't concern me as much as the nagging question of, "What is the true purpose of the little boy?"

Clairvoyant or not, his usefulness is bizarre to me.

I agree again, what in the world could black ink offer in aid to prophesying? In my youth I dabbled in the occult and black ink was never a suggested medium. Curiouser, curiouser…
Scottieluvr aka Pamela

"Above all, be the heroine of your life, not the victim." - Nora Ephron

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #145 on: April 16, 2013, 06:23:33 PM »
Is anyone finding the pace too slow? too fast? We can always adjust it, but we need to know.

The black ink: it looks like Collins wants to introduce a slight element of the supernatural here. We'll have to wait and see if he develops it.

I have a dim memory of reading about a Magdelene Society scandal in Canada, but I didn't see any mention of that in the first article. I suspect the conditions were worse in some facilities than others, and probably got worse over time. Do youu think Collins is seeing Rosanna's self-loathing as due to her treatment at the Society, or as natural, given her past?

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10921
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #146 on: April 16, 2013, 06:57:58 PM »
I had assumed the black ink was a variation of scrying, in which you put a drop of oil on a liquid, and see things in the swirling pattern.

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #147 on: April 16, 2013, 07:07:01 PM »
Scrying:

http://www.crystalinks.com/scrying.html

Appantly, a crystal ball or water are more usually used, but any reflective mediem bthat the person can stare into and "see" things.

Scottieluvr

  • Posts: 127
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #148 on: April 16, 2013, 09:59:03 PM »
Is anyone finding the pace too slow? too fast? We can always adjust it, but we need to know.

The pace is fine to me, but if its sped up I can hold my own.  :)
Scottieluvr aka Pamela

"Above all, be the heroine of your life, not the victim." - Nora Ephron

Scottieluvr

  • Posts: 127
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #149 on: April 16, 2013, 10:02:25 PM »
[...] Do youu think Collins is seeing Rosanna's self-loathing as due to her treatment at the Society, or as natural, given her past?

I feel he puts blame for Rosanna's self-loathing squarely on the society.
Scottieluvr aka Pamela

"Above all, be the heroine of your life, not the victim." - Nora Ephron

Scottieluvr

  • Posts: 127
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #150 on: April 16, 2013, 10:04:13 PM »
I had assumed the black ink was a variation of scrying, in which you put a drop of oil on a liquid, and see things in the swirling pattern.

Scrying: http://www.crystalinks.com/scrying.html
Appantly, a crystal ball or water are more usually used, but any reflective mediem bthat the person can stare into and "see" things.

YES!  Scrying... I never thought of that.  ;)
Scottieluvr aka Pamela

"Above all, be the heroine of your life, not the victim." - Nora Ephron

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #151 on: April 17, 2013, 09:47:11 AM »
Quote
"In my youth I dabbled in the occult and black ink was never a suggested medium."

Oh Pamela, tell more!  I remember one scarey night "playing with a Ouja board with friends... could have sworn something was going on that night.  Never again!

Can someone tell me about this little blond British boy "scrying" with the Indians?   His supernatural power would be one answer to Fry's question about how the Indians can know where the diamond is.   But who is this little boy?  Did I miss that explanation somewhere?  Do you get the feeling he's been kidnapped?  Or? 


JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #152 on: April 17, 2013, 10:12:36 AM »
When thinking of this little boy - possibly kidnapped by the Indians, I remembered a question someone asked here earlier - about whether Wilkie C had ever visited India.  I don't have the answer to that question, but do remember this about Dickens, who was working closely with Wilkie when he wrote The Moonstone in 1867-68.

Dickens had two sons who volunteered to serve in the British Army in India.  His son Walter disappeared, never to return home.  Dickens always blamed his son's inept British commanders.  On New Year's Eve in 1863 he received word that his 22 year old son had died in India.  

Surely DIckens and Collins had talked of Walter's recent death - , as Collins was writing the installments for Dickens' paper.
Collins writes in disparaging terms of the British officers in command in India during the Siege of Seringapatam when the diamond was stolen.

I will be very interested in hearing more about this little British boy with the Indians - and where he came from...





Frybabe

  • Posts: 9951
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #153 on: April 17, 2013, 10:14:28 AM »
I don't consider myself superstitious, but I never thought the Ouji board was something to play with like a game. My ex and some neighbors had a really strange encounter (over several nights) with one. Who ever heard of a Ouji asking questions? This one did. The one I remember the best is the question it asked about what visual light spectrum we see in. The two at the board were in something of a trance, feeling quite drained afterwords. We brought in two of our other neighbors to witness the encounter one night. The board hesitated to respond as if checking out the newcomers. The whole thing stopped when one of the board operators asked a question we had all agreed not to get into (religion) and I got upset. We could never get it back afterwards. There had been definitely a feeling of a presence there. This was about the tim the Comet Kahoteck  (not sure I spelled that right) was passing by. Lots of psychic activity was reported about then from others.

JoanP, I got the impression that the boy was one of those numerous children on the streets, orphaned or otherwise left to fend for themselves. I didn't get the impression he was kidnapped. I suspected on reading the bit where he didn't want to cooperate that when they threatened to take him back to the situation he had been in before, he much preferred being with the Indians. They probably provided him with a regular meal and tolerable sleeping accommodations, whereas previously he would have had to catch as catch can so to speak. That was my take, anyway.

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #154 on: April 17, 2013, 10:18:14 AM »
Hmm...Dickens did write often of those poor children fending for themselves in the streets of London at this time.  You could be right.  I'm wondering how the Indians knew the boy had this power when they picked him up.  Was it necessary that their boy be a British boy?

A powerful experience, with "the board" Fry.   You sound as if you accepted the "presence" at that time. Do you think that WilkieC's readers were able to accept the supernatural scrying explanation at that time...even though we are skeptical?

Frybabe

  • Posts: 9951
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #155 on: April 17, 2013, 10:46:13 AM »
I've no doubt that seances or otherwise communicating with the departed were very popular in the 19th century. The first book about it, Communitation With the Other Side was written by George, First Baron Lyttelton, and published in England in 1760. I don't know if Collins or Dickens partook of the spiritualist movement, but they certainly would have been aware of it. Some famous authors who either believed or were curious about it included Mark Twain, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, and Dostoevsky. Dostoevsky was aware of its popularity and so included it in some of his writings; he himself apparently believed in premonitions rather than actually talking to the dead.

Jonathan

  • Posts: 1697
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #156 on: April 17, 2013, 10:53:03 AM »
'curious hocus-pocus', Mr Franklin calls it, according to Betteredge. (ch 8 ) Indian magic. No doubt the British were learning a lot of curious things about their exotic subjects in far away India. The clairvoyant boy was found useful for their purpose, and was no doubt rewarded in some fashion. I don't think he was kidnapped.

I remember being warned about ouija boards when I was young. Raising spirits was a dangerous thing. I never made an effort to find out. Reading something like The Moonstone was thrilling enough as a young teenager. The book has lost none of it's magic I'm pleased to see. Betteredge is more my age now and I can appreciate his thinking and his memory recall efforts and his problems sitting down and getting up. How pleased he is about his abilities and his smarts. Very clever the way he looks at Franklin's foreign education, seeing all the French, German and Italian influences. And by the way telling us several times that Franklin was always in need of money. That's such an obvious clue. And how proud he is of his ability to get the cooperation of women, young and old. Except for his departed wife, with whom he always disputed the right of way on the stairs in the house.

And now for a spoiler. In my researches I've discovered that Charles Dickens, the very good friend of Wilkie Collins, foundThe Moonstone 'wearisome beyond endurance'. While the circulation of his journal containing the story was increasing. The public lapped it up. Robinson Crusoe, too was on everyone's mind.

Jonathan

  • Posts: 1697
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #157 on: April 17, 2013, 11:05:44 AM »
 And also Mary Lincoln, who had spiritualists conducting seances in the White House a number of times, trying to get into touch with her two boys. The president attended once. It must have been too trying for him.

Scottieluvr

  • Posts: 127
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #158 on: April 17, 2013, 12:22:44 PM »
Oh Pamela, tell more!  I remember one scarey night "playing with a Ouja board with friends... could have sworn something was going on that night.  Never again!

My bestest girlfriend in the whole world (yes, there’s no such word as ‘bestest’  ;)) and I use to dip into tarot, Ouija, and astrology, mostly for future telling. I’ve never considered myself possessing any 6th sense or 3rd eye, but while I operated the the Ouija, my girlfriend's grandfather’s death popped up. I blew it off. However… 3-4 weeks later he passed from a heart attack. I’ve never done any divination, predicting, tarot reading, etc., again. Though I still enjoy [reading] astrology in spite of my religious practices.  ;)
Scottieluvr aka Pamela

"Above all, be the heroine of your life, not the victim." - Nora Ephron

Scottieluvr

  • Posts: 127
Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #159 on: April 17, 2013, 12:29:43 PM »
Can someone tell me about this little blond British boy "scrying" with the Indians?   His supernatural power would be one answer to Fry's question about how the Indians can know where the diamond is.   But who is this little boy?  Did I miss that explanation somewhere?  Do you get the feeling he's been kidnapped?  Or?

I believe its Chapter 3 we first learn of the boy and the three Indians. But in the chapters we’ve read so far the boy’s identity is obscure.

The two girls had seen the Indians pass out, after I had warned them off, followed by their little boy. Taking it into their heads that the boy was ill-used by the foreigners—for no reason that I could discover, except that he was pretty and delicate-looking—the two girls had stolen along the inner side of the hedge between us and the road, and had watched the proceedings of the foreigners on the outer side. Those proceedings resulted in the performance of the following extraordinary tricks.

In the excerpt above Collins reveals the group is hidden, secretly practicing their “curious hocus-pocus” as Jonathan called it.  :D However I wonder if they are not using the boy as a conduit for their magic as presented by this passage:

[…] The Indian—first touching the boy's head, and making signs over it in the air—then said, "Look." The boy became quite stiff, and stood like a statue, looking into the ink in the hollow of his hand.

So I’m assuming the boy is in some kind of trance when this dialog begins:

The Indians looked up the road and down the road once more—and then the chief Indian said these words to the boy; "See the English gentleman from foreign parts."
The boy said, "I see him."
The Indian said, "Is it on the road to this house, and on no other, that the English gentleman will travel to-day?"
The boy said, "It is on the road to this house, and on no other, that the English gentleman will travel to-day." The Indian put a second question—after waiting a little first.
He said: "Has the English gentleman got It about him?"
The boy answered—also, after waiting a little first—"Yes."
The Indian put a third and last question: "Will the English gentleman come here, as he has promised to come, at the close of day?"
The boy said, "I can't tell."
The Indian asked why.
The boy said, "I am tired. The mist rises in my head, and puzzles me. I can see no more to-day."

The Chief Indian then performs as if “closing a portal to another dimension” as presented here:
He then, after making more signs on the boy's head, blew on his forehead, and so woke him up with a start. After that, they all went on their way towards the town, and the girls saw them no more.


Quotes taken from: Project Gutenberg EBook of The Moonstone, by Wilkie Collins.

From these paragraphs I’m quick to assume the boy is an orphan or street urchin, given the period we are reading in. He doesn’t appear fearful of the Indians collectively, instead fears the “magic” they believe in. He is their spiritual instrument for sure. Then within our assigned chapters the boy is never presented in a bad light; no bruises, disheveled, or seeming to be hungry. Finally, given the boy’s “pretty” appearance the females in the audience are compelled to kiss and fawn over him after the performance. So he seems well cared for and in no immediate danger. As for why a British boy?  Convenience I think...  :)
Scottieluvr aka Pamela

"Above all, be the heroine of your life, not the victim." - Nora Ephron