Author Topic: Moonstone, The by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online (Read 60731 times)

JoanP · « **Reply #80 on:** April 07, 2013, 10:57:09 PM »

The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.

The Moonstone
Wilkie Collins

In T.S. Eliot called The Moonstone "the first and greatest English detective novel." Told from the standpoint of several, very different, very British characters, it is the funny, irreverent, dramatic, romantic, very British story of the theft of an Indian jewel taken from the eye of an idol and then stolen again from a very British country house by mysterious Indians. Come and join us: I'll bet you can't guess "whodunit" and what they did!

Discussion Schedule:
April 15-21: Through section XI in Gabriel Betteredge's narrative, ending with: "A day or two after, however, the darkness lifted a little. How, and with what result, you shall presently see."
April 21-?: The rest of Betteredge's narrative, up to THE END OF THE FIRST PERIOD, stopping when you come to Miss Clack's narrative.

Related Links::Gutenberg electronic text

For Your Consideration
April 15-21: Through section XI

1. What function does Betteredge's long introduction serve? How would you describe the mood that he sets? What point is Collins making with his use of Robinson Crusoe?

2. What recent event of that time would have made the three Indians particularly sinister to Collins' readers?

3. Is "the Shivering Sands" a real place? Do you know any such place?

4. What would you say is the main characteristic of each of the characters?

5. Do you find Betteredge racist? Sexist? Why, or why not?

6. Do you have any theories as to how the jewels were stolen? (No fair telling, if you've read the book!)

7. Why do you think Rachel is acting so strangely after the robbery?

8. What ground did Franklin and Godfrey have for their opposite opinions of the police's competence? What does this tell us about their character?

9. What kind of police organization existed at the time?

DISCUSSION LEADERS: JoanK & PatH

marcie · « **Reply #81 on:** April 07, 2013, 11:46:57 PM »

Welcome, Donnie. I'm glad you'll be with us to talk about The Moonstone.

Donnie · « **Reply #82 on:** April 08, 2013, 11:36:44 AM »

Thank You all for the warm welcome. One time I heard a person say she (me) would rather read than eat. Not true as I did both at the same time. I ended up overfed and I like to think well read. Now I just grab a cup of coffe & read until I have sipped to the bottom of the cup at which time my reading session is over. Now that I am eating and drinking to maintain my health (recovering from the after effects of bilateral mastectomy and radiation), I have at least a daily cup of green tea which I have read many times is good for you. I have the Kindle version of Moonstone and just started reading it. Whoever said you can't help getting drawn in is right. I am reading more than was suggested but I am going to stick to my way of reading which is read from beginning to end. I like to read a good book more than once knowing that I always miss something the first time around. I am a slow reader and if I just stuck to the schedule, I wouldn't be able to get through it twice.

Scottieluvr · « **Reply #83 on:** April 08, 2013, 02:38:37 PM »

Quote from: Donnie on April 08, 2013, 11:36:44 AM

Thank You all for the warm welcome. One time I heard a person say she (me) would rather read than eat. Not true as I did both at the same time. I ended up overfed and I like to think well read. Now I just grab a cup of coffe & read until I have sipped to the bottom of the cup at which time my reading session is over. Now that I am eating and drinking to maintain my health (recovering from the after effects of bilateral mastectomy and radiation), I have at least a daily cup of green tea which I have read many times is good for you. I have the Kindle version of Moonstone and just started reading it. Whoever said you can't help getting drawn in is right. I am reading more than was suggested but I am going to stick to my way of reading which is read from beginning to end. I like to read a good book more than once knowing that I always miss something the first time around. I am a slow reader and if I just stuck to the schedule, I wouldn't be able to get through it twice.

I too enjoy eating, drinking and reading simultaneously. I have to be carefully what I eat because mindless nibbling, because I’m absorbed by the book, leads to overindulgence.

So carrots, celery, premade peanut butter and saltines work well in keeping me from expanding.

JoanP · « **Reply #84 on:** April 09, 2013, 04:27:48 PM »

We've been away for the last four days celebrating spring, a birthday, and many many soccer games with four grandchildren. I missed your posts, Donnie! So glad you can join us.

I'm caught up - to Chapter XII, but am heeding Pat's warning about reading ahead. When reading a mystery, it's too too hard to remember how far everyone else has read and not let slip something crucial to the plot. Don't want to be a spoiler - and if you're like me, it's hard to keep quiet for the rest of the discussion if you know what's happened in later chapters...
One more week and we'll get started! Can't wait!

JoanK · « **Reply #85 on:** April 09, 2013, 04:42:47 PM »

I can't wait either. Did everyone notice we put the first two weeks schedule in the heading. As always, we can adjust it later if it proves too fast or too slow.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #86 on:** April 09, 2013, 06:45:32 PM »

I have become so busy reading up on Collins - he sure had an interesting if not messy love and subsequent family life with two essentially mistresses not marrying either.

The other interest has been to find out what was happening on the international front - when we read the last Dickens novel we really got into the domestic concerns and problems with the law - this novel brings us into the East - there was that huge uprising in India about 10 years before this book was published - and I found an article he wrote for the Dickens published magazine - about India and he is most favorable in his descriptions of the Indian culture and population which was not common after the uprising was so savage and killed so many of the Brits both in the army and their families as well as those stationed in India.

The other biggie going on at the time was the unification of Italy along with both the French and the Austrian's visceral taking down of the Vatican which was a part of the Unification of Italy since at that time the Vatican was an area about a third of what is Italy today. I am anxious to see if any of those attitudes or the power struggle in the Italian conflict creep into his book - I just wonder if the religious connection with the jewel from the statue of a god is taking from both these conflicts although different cultures.

JoanP · « **Reply #87 on:** April 09, 2013, 06:56:19 PM »

Thanks for the historical background, Barb. There are so many instances of Dickens and Collins' characters spending time in the east - in India especially. I'd be surprised if the Italian struggle "crept into the book" - although Franklin Blake was educated in Italy for a while, wasn't he? Maybe...

Here's something weird I came across - regarding the moonstone itself:

"The Moonstone of the title is a diamond (not to be confused with the semi-precious moonstone gem). It gained its name from its association with the Hindu god of the moon. Originally set in the forehead of a sacred statue of the god at Somnath, and later at Benares, it was said to be protected by hereditary guardians on the orders of Vishnu, and to wax and wane in brilliance along with the light of the moon."

Don't you find that a bit confusing? I found this on the semi-precious stone - http://www.gemstoneindex.net/gemstones/moonstone.html

And this is the precious Moonstone - the Indian diamond...http://moonstone-lifelinetheatre.blogspot.com/2011/01/moonstone-diamonds-with-less-than.html

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #88 on:** April 09, 2013, 07:18:36 PM »

So it was a diamond - I also thought it was a moonstone that I thought was another name for an Opal - I wonder what symbolism a Diamond has in the Hindu religion - this will be a perfect time to learn more about the Hindu religion - didn't we brush into some Hinduism when we read Travels with Herodotus?

Scottieluvr · « **Reply #89 on:** April 10, 2013, 02:57:08 PM »

Quote from: JoanP on April 09, 2013, 06:56:19 PM

[...] Here's something weird I came across - regarding the moonstone itself:

"The Moonstone of the title is a diamond (not to be confused with the semi-precious moonstone gem). It gained its name from its association with the Hindu god of the moon. Originally set in the forehead of a sacred statue of the god at Somnath, and later at Benares, it was said to be protected by hereditary guardians on the orders of Vishnu, and to wax and wane in brilliance along with the light of the moon."

Don't you find that a bit confusing? I found this on the semi-precious stone - http://www.gemstoneindex.net/gemstones/moonstone.html

And this is the precious Moonstone - the Indian diamond...http://moonstone-lifelinetheatre.blogspot.com/2011/01/moonstone-diamonds-with-less-than.html

Interesting links about the moonstone, cursed diamonds and "The Moonstone" diamond.

JoanK · « **Reply #90 on:** April 10, 2013, 08:24:16 PM »

"I just wonder if the religious connection with the jewel from the statue of a god is taking from both these conflicts although different cultures."

Certainly the conflict in India is important to the story. If the conflict in Italy does, it's more subtle.

Given that conflict in India, it's interesting to see different views on India and Indians as expressed by the characters in the Moonstone. I don't know whether Collins had ever been to India?

The moonstone being a diamond is confusing. I like the (real) moonstones almost better than diamonds, (see Barb's link above) but the world doesn't agree with me.

kidsal · « **Reply #91 on:** April 11, 2013, 03:37:16 AM »

Was cataloging my films today and found that I own a copy of the 1934 film "Moonstone." Watched the first few minutes to learn that Beddridge is portrayed as a woman and Rachel is named Ann.

JoanP · « **Reply #92 on:** April 11, 2013, 08:02:00 AM »

Kidsal - you own the1934 version? That 's amazing! And Betteredge is played by a woman? Even more amazing? I read your post on my iPad, typed in "moonstone 1934" and to my amazement, I found a free streaming video of the film -46 minutes of this 1934 adaptation!- l Like you, I watched only the first minute or so, though I don't intend to watch it until after I've read the book as Wilkie wrote it.
Thanks for mentioning the film. I suppose the film makers make such radical changes to signal that the film is an "adaptation" and they won't be staying with the original story. I predict the mystery is solved a la Collins though... Don't want to spoil the suspense by seeing the ending before reading it!

http://archive.org/details/TheMoonstone

kidsal · « **Reply #93 on:** April 11, 2013, 12:16:51 PM »

Found on Amazon -- they have many movie collections -- mine is Mystery Classics - 50 each 1930-1945 mysteries. Got to looking at them and ordered collection of old musicals.

Jonathan · « **Reply #94 on:** April 13, 2013, 02:32:00 PM »

While we're waiting for the curtain to go up, here's something from another book about diamonds:

'...a party was held in the Hall of Mirrors, at Versailles, on Wednesday evening, December 11, 1697, described as "the largest and most magnificent ball that had ever been seen at court....All diamonds look their best in candlelight because each flicker of flame calls forth new brilliance and amazing scintillation. Four thousand candles conspired that night to give the Diamond full, glorious life in its most beautiful setting ever. With seventeen huge arched windows on one marbe eighty-foot-long wall, and seventeen arched mirrors on the other; with sixteen massive chandaliers, twenty-four crystal candelabra, plus two great silver ones with eight branches each; with sixty-four silver tubs on silver bases holding orange trees; with alabaster and blue lapis vases on silver tables; with gleaming silver benches and chairs lined up against the wall; with dancers of both sexes ablaze in diamonds, there was, on that fairy night, a festival of light and fire beyond imagining. The entire Hall of Mirrors became one enormous diamond suspended on the black velvet night beyond.' Taken from HOPE: Adventures of a diamond, by Marian Fowler.

The Diamond was the one hanging from the neck of 'the stooped, stiff-limbed, inflexible Louis XIV, the Sun King. His last years were miserable. 'He sank into a depression, had frequent crying fits, his gout got so bad that he directed his daily council meetings of ministers from his bed'. Once he was overheard sighing: 'God seems to have forgotten all I have done for him.'

Was it the diamond? Collins suffered a similiar fate. He tells us in the preface about the severest attack of gout while writing about the cursed diamond. I can't get myself to believe that his mother's fatal illness was inflicted on her for the same reason.

JoanK · « **Reply #95 on:** April 13, 2013, 05:26:25 PM »

WOW! that sounds like quite a party! I can't promise anything of the kind in The moonstone, we'll have to make due with the one diamond on Rachel's breast. It probably looked better on her than the one on Louis XIV.

KIDSAL: I wish you hadn't told me that. I love both old myssteries and old musicals. Don't think I'll watch "The Moonstone", though.

marcie · « **Reply #96 on:** April 13, 2013, 11:01:16 PM »

Kidsal, that's great that you have the 1934 film. I looked and a 46 minute version of it is available online at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpDPFI8qwp8

Information about the original seems to state it's 60 minutes.

I saw the 1997 TV version. I think I taped it. I have a favorable memory of it but it's hazy. I'll have to look for it.

kidsal · « **Reply #97 on:** April 14, 2013, 12:16:15 AM »

My version is 60 minutes. Looked up on Amazon -- quite a few films made. Think I'll skip the one for sale for $134.

JoanK · « **Reply #98 on:** April 14, 2013, 03:48:43 PM »

Tomorrow is the day. The questions will go up sometime today.

NEW POSTERS: these questions are only for fun. Don't feel you have to answer all (or any) of them. Many of us never even look at them. They're there because sometimes they spur our thinking (and sometimes not). We try to think of things that will get us thinking in different ways about the book, but it's hard to do.

(I have a "thing" about High School English classes. I think their purpose is to make us feel we're too dumb to read classics by asking us question we don't know the answers to. On Seniornet, the purpose of the questions is just to give us something to discus if we can't think of anything).

Zulema · « **Reply #99 on:** April 14, 2013, 04:08:40 PM »

Hello, people,

I just signed up for the discussion. I have had colleagues who did their dissertations on Wilkie Collins but somehow have never read The Moonstone. I did read The Woman in White maybe 35 years ago, but can't remember much except the sense of dread I got reading some parts of it, and I saw a film of it, but I rather think it was a PBS feature. So I started reading The Moonstone last night, the paperback reprinted in 2009, with a new Intro by Alev Lytle Croutier. I read that, and I got to page 11 in the text.

I don't expect to comment much, but I will be reading it. I am happy to be back here after almost a year of not coming by.

Good to see a lot names here I knew.

JoanK · « **Reply #100 on:** April 14, 2013, 04:12:06 PM »

WELCOME WELCOME ZULEMA! Great to have you back.

And anything your friends shared with you about collins would be welcome. I'm wondering if we will be able to detect any effect in the text from his use of opium.

Scottieluvr · « **Reply #101 on:** April 14, 2013, 05:24:49 PM »

Quote from: JoanK on April 14, 2013, 03:48:43 PM

[...] (I have a "thing" about High School English classes. I think their purpose is to make us feel we're too dumb to read classics by asking us question we don't know the answers to. On Seniornet, the purpose of the questions is just to give us something to discus if we can't think of anything).

I remember my high school English years well...and yes, I felt infinitely too stupid to even open a classic much less possess one. However, I've matured since then...

I'll definitely use the questions to spurn discussion ideas. This is my very first book discussion so can use all available help with the creation of stimulating conversation.

Scottieluvr · « **Reply #102 on:** April 14, 2013, 05:25:47 PM »

Quote from: Zulema on April 14, 2013, 04:08:40 PM

Hello, people, [...]

Hello Zulema, nice to meet you.

Zulema · « **Reply #103 on:** April 14, 2013, 05:42:18 PM »

If there are any personal comments in the forewords and such in this volume, I'll pass them on. He probably could not have written the books without the opium help, but it's not going to show except in his imagination, I assume. I never knew much about him. Didn't discuss him at all.

OT - Joan, how do I get my picture up. I've tried but failed.

JoanK · « **Reply #104 on:** April 14, 2013, 08:54:27 PM »

I'm not good at that. Ask in the "questions and Problems" discussion, and someone will help you.

http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=29.240

Don't be put off by earlier "tech" discussions. Just add your questions to the end.

Zulema · « **Reply #105 on:** April 14, 2013, 11:01:11 PM »

Joan, thank you. Meantime I have found out that Collins was very ill and bedridden when he dictated The Moonstone and he was likely to have been helped out by opium. Still, plenty of people under the influence of opium do not create anything. I remember when I got morphine some years ago in the hospital, I was just happy to doze and doze.

kidsal · « **Reply #106 on:** April 15, 2013, 03:20:14 AM »

Many places called shimmering sands -- Thames River (Army Fort), Wisconsin, sand dune areas; pictures of them -- golden sands. Cosmetics named shimmering sands -- golden.

JoanP · « **Reply #107 on:** April 15, 2013, 08:46:31 AM »

Shimmering sands...and weren't they also called "shivvering sands"? I had to smile at the idea of cosmetics named "shimmering sands" - do you think the idea of quicksand occurred to the makers, kidsal ? Puffy cheeks, bags under the eyes, all collapsing under the shimmering sands.

I was reminded of my serious childhood fear of quicksand when reading of Rosanna's fascination for the shimmering, shivvering sand. Must have seen a movie and watched people struggle to save themselves - to no avail. Was really frightened when at the New Jersey shore with family - the lower stretch of soft sand between the beach step-down into the water, before it rose again under the water. I was certain it was quicksand. Worried how I was ever going to save younger siblings in my charge.

The sands brought up two questions...what drew Rosanna to such a place? - and then, wouldn't that be a good final resting place for the cursed diamond if one wanted to dispose of it once and for all?

All that will be revealed in due time of course...but Wilkie C. plants these seeds...without our even being aware of them, doesn't he?

PatH · « **Reply #108 on:** April 15, 2013, 09:10:07 AM »

I had a childhood fear of quicksand too. It was in a lot of scary books. When I grew up, I learned that it wasn't quite as straightforward. Usually, you would not sink far enough to drown, and there are ways of getting out. Here's some information:

Quicksand

WARNING! The first link in post 111 contains serious spoilers!

JoanP · « **Reply #109 on:** April 15, 2013, 09:12:25 AM »

Thanks for that link, PatH - I will keep this in mind - "With quicksand, the more you struggle in it the faster you will sink. If you just relax, your body will float in it because your body is less dense than the quicksand." I'm sure that I'd have been a struggler....

Jonathan · « **Reply #110 on:** April 15, 2013, 10:28:01 AM »

Hi, all. How lucky we are to have The Twins leading this discussion, both experts at sifting the evidence.

Shivering Sands makes for shivering readers. How many readers of The Moonstone have been left with a permanent fear of the ground beneath their feet! It was a stroke of genius to make it part of the plot. There goes the evidence, lost in a quicksand of greed, dread and holy dedication. Conjecture, predjudice and passion. Rationalization and emotional supposition. And an ooze of other pitfalls. Let's get it all on record, Mr Bruff, the family lawyer suggests. And Gabriel Betteredge is first on the witness stand. Here's what happened. We may never know. Except for growing a certain kind of rose.

Great questions. I'm baffled by all of them. There certainly was a lot of loot in those lavish palaces. Why all the violence to get at it. Diamonds are so easy to come by. Dip your fingers in water. Hold them against a light and watch the glitter flow off their tips. Catch a dewey spiderweb in the early sun. Or a drop of rain after a shower hanging from a leaf, caught by sunlight. A dazzling diamond at 300 feet.

Frybabe · « **Reply #111 on:** April 15, 2013, 12:30:58 PM »

Here is an interesting article about The Moonstone and India.
http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/collins/pva30.html

I knew there were a bunch of wars and mutinies, but wasn't sure which was closest to publication. This article points to the Sepoy Mutiny of 1857. During the time period in which the story unfolds the British saw action in the second Sikh War (the first Sikh War was during 1845-1846). "the Storming of Seringapatam" referred to in the Prologue was during the Fourth Anglo-Mysore War of 1789-99.

BTW, I think the Koh-i-Noor diamond was brought to England a few years before the publication of The Moonstone.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/20/koh-i-noor-diamond-british-crown-jewel-will-not-be-returned_n_2730168.html

JudeS · « **Reply #112 on:** April 15, 2013, 01:48:51 PM »

I am inaugarating the Nook my daughter got me for my birthday with "The Moonstone". It is a fitting inaugaration since it is British and includes a magnificent diamond.

Joan P: Iquote you here only to disagree. Sorry!But perhaps you were sneakingly hoping someone would disagree so we could start a dialogue?
"Wilkie plants these seeds ...without our even being aware of them, doesn't he?'

Wilkie is a seasoned writer. He, like Dickens, understands the nature of "foreshadowing" i.e. little hints that appeared innocuous at the time will later be our entrance to important facts and happenings in future pages.
This is the reason he is the "Father" of the mystery novel.
I felt that the cleverest move so far is the telling of the same story by three different people. We see this plot type in a famous Japanese film (Rashomon) in which four wheels of a cart , each tell the same story, from their own perspective. As we know now, after seeing inumerable felms and TV shows, this is the basis for thousands of plots in which the same story is seen from a different angle.

I am amazed at how modern his writing seems to me. Delightful.

PatH · « **Reply #113 on:** April 15, 2013, 01:59:42 PM »

WARNING about Frybabe's interesting link about The Moonstone and India: It contains spoilers, including who the criminal is.

PatH · « **Reply #114 on:** April 15, 2013, 02:14:15 PM »

Frybabe, you're right about the Sepoy Mutiny of 1857. It was extremely bloody, with many casualties, including massacres of women and children, and left the British public with a very uneasy attitude toward India.

PatH · « **Reply #115 on:** April 15, 2013, 02:16:44 PM »

Zulema, I see you figured out how to get your picture up. It's always nice to put a face to friends here.

JoanK · « **Reply #116 on:** April 15, 2013, 02:30:26 PM »

Too bad about the link, PAT. We'll have to postpone reading it: it looks very interesting.

I did read the first sentance, which says:

"To Wilkie Collins, the Moonstone is the signifier of all things that humanity strives for, material and spiritual."

Wow. Does that give the whole story another level of meaning?

JoanK · « **Reply #117 on:** April 15, 2013, 02:39:24 PM »

JUDE: perfect way to start your nook off. Let us know how you find it. I LOVE having instant access to over a million books, but my bank account has suffered a bit!

Thanks for the complement, JONATHAN. But I don't think I'd like to shift the shivvering sands. I love the movie of Bear Grylls struggling out of quicksand, Pat. (It looked like he cheated and got a little help from his crew, off camera. But at least now we all know to monkey crawl and not wait as long as he did!)

JoanK · « **Reply #118 on:** April 15, 2013, 02:45:29 PM »

I remember my one experience with morphine, too. ZULEMA. I went off into la-la land and gave a long speech to my roommate on the earthshaking beauty of the hospital wallpaper! I'm impressed that the authors of the time were able to write anything coherant.

Scottieluvr · « **Reply #119 on:** April 15, 2013, 02:48:52 PM »

Quote from: JoanP on April 15, 2013, 08:46:31 AM

[…] I was reminded of my serious childhood fear of quicksand when reading of Rosanna's fascination for the shimmering, shivvering sand. Must have seen a movie and watched people struggle to save themselves - to no avail. Was really frightened when at the New Jersey shore with family - the lower stretch of soft sand between the beach step-down into the water, before it rose again under the water. I was certain it was quicksand. Worried how I was ever going to save younger siblings in my charge.

Me too! I’ve feared quicksand since my childhood, spent watching those late-night horror classics with Vincent Price, Boris Karloff, Lon Chaney (Sr/Jr), etc. When at Ocean City, Myrtle Beach or even camping along the Severn River or Conowingo Dam the loose sand made me think of quicksand and my unwillingly surrender into its grainy clutches. *ROFLOL*

Quote from: JoanP on April 15, 2013, 08:46:31 AM

The sands brought up two questions...what drew Rosanna to such a place? - and then, wouldn't that be a good final resting place for the cursed diamond if one wanted to dispose of it once and for all?

Given Rosanna’s prior life its no wonder, to me, she is attracted to the peaceful serenity of the Shimmering Sands. I like to believe their hypnotic shifting gives her peace from the constant reminiscing of past indiscretions. From the start I felt her heavy guilty-ridden weight upon her back; for being a thief and then serving prison time. I can only imagine what she endured in prison too…

However, while she and Betteredge chatted at the Sands, I thought it a good place to hide the diamond should it be stolen. Imagine placing the diamond in a bag, attach a sturdy rope to it and gently lower it into the shifting sand. When all was clear, retrieve the prize and make haste for the border.

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Author Topic: Moonstone, The by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online (Read 60731 times)