Good Man is Hard to Find, A by Flannery O'Connor ~ June 18-20 ~ Short Stories

[marcie]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

Short Stories - Some SeniorLearn Selections-  JUNE 1 throught JULY

It is said that a good short story should include: * a strong theme, * a fascinating plot, * a fitting structure, * unforgettable characters, * a well-chosen setting, * an appealing style.  Let's consider these elements as we discuss the following stories.  Is it necessary to include them all in a successful story?  
  

Notice that the titles are all links to the stories.

Discussion Schedule:
June 1 -June 9: *The Book of The Funny Smells--and Everything (1872) by Eleanor H Abbott *The Necklace or The Diamond Necklace (1880) -  by Guy de Maupassant *A Pair of Silk Stockings (1896) by Kate Chopin
June 10- 14: *Babylon Revisited (1931) by F.Scott Fitzgerald
June 15- 17: *First Confession (1939) by Frank O'Connor
June 18-20: *A Good Man Is Hard to Find (1953) by Flannery O'Connor  
June 21-23: *The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas (1973) by Ursula LeGuin

************************

A Good Man Is Hard to Find by Flannery O'Connor

Flannery O'Connor (1925-1964) is known as a Southern Gothic writer. It's said of her short story, A Good Man is Hard to Find, (written in 1953) that more than anything else she wrote, this story evokes the comedy, violence, and religious concerns that characterize her fiction.

Audio recording of O'Connor reading the story

Topics for Consideration
June 18 - June 20

Let's ease into this story with our thoughts about some of the scenes/descriptions that made us laugh. What are some of your favorite comic moments? What do you all think of the Misfit? Does he show any potential for change at the end? What happens to the grandmother right before the Misfit shoots her? What do you think it means?    DL Contact: Marcie

[marcie]

Welcome everyone.

This is another story by a "Catholic writer." It also contains comedy but I think we'll find that the wit of Flannery O'Connor is at the other end of the rainbow from that of Frank O'Connor. But there are definitely many laugh-out-loud moments.  Let's ease into the story by talking about some of the comic moments. What are some scenes/descriptions/lines that you find funny?

 I've put a link in the heading to an audio recording of Flannery O'Connor reading the whole story, in case you're interested in hearing it. It took me a little while to get used to her accent. It helped me to read the short story text in another window while listening to the audio.

Audio recording of O'Connor reading the story

[salan]

Oops, somehow I lost my post.  I guess this story must be called a "dark comedy" .  The events that I found humorous at the beginning were quickly lost as the story unfolded.  When I finished this story, I was depressed and angry.  The ending didn't match up to the beginning!  I'll not be reading any more stories by Flannery O'Conner.  In fact, I am sorry that I read this one.  It left a bad taste in my mouth.  Not my kind of story at all.
Sally

[JoanP]

It makes you wonder why the story was so very popular when it first appeared in 1953, doesn't it Sally?  You'd think O'Connor's readers would have been as turned off as you were at the time.   I wonder if it was representative of the mood of the 50's, or whether O'Connor was using the shock value to make people aware of issues of the time they'd rather not think about.  I often think that  when I read Joyce Carol Oates' novels...and her  short stories too, for that matter.  

(By the way, J.C Oates is on the short list for the Frank O'Connor International Short Story Award this year for her "Black Dahlia & White Rose" ....)

Flannery O'Connor sort of lures you in with her portrayal of grandma (another grandma like Frank O'Connor's?) and her intrusion into the family's life.  Did anything in that first part make you smile?

[PatH]

At first I both laughed and cringed at Grandma.  O'Connor certainly has a perfect ear for the family conversations and interactions.  But my reaction was like Sally's; when the story turned dark, that wiped the enjoyment away.  Now I have to figure out what O'Connor is trying to do in this story.

[pedln]

It looks like we're all raising the same questions.  I can't find the humor in it at all, and my question is that same as JoanP's -- why was this story so popular in 1953.  The descriptions of the family did not bring up any visual images for me.  They seemed exaggerated, the children, way overdone in brattiness.  The one thing that caught my attention early on was vocabulary when O'Connor wrote about mother wearing "slacks."  It struck me that we don't hear that word mentioned much any more.  Everything is "pants."

Another question mentioned by one of you -- the purpose of this story, what was it meant to tell. Hopefully we'll figure it out.  But when I finished reading it last night all I could think of was the evil it described.

[PatH]

She certainly has a sure touch, though.  Look at Grandma, with her white cotton gloves and her artificial violets with a sachet.  "In case of an accident, anyone seeing her dead on the highway would know at once that she was a lady."

[JudeS]

I found the story brutal and disturbing.
I read it after listening to O'Connor reading the story aloud. Never having read her work before I had no previous opinions.
She was setting us up by describing (very well I must admit) a typical Southern family in a sarcastic, vaguely humorous manner.
This is a horror story that left me determined to stay away from her work in the future.
I wondered if she had hated her own Grandmother since she made such a caricature of the woman.

[JoanP]

Jude...I just finished listening to the recording too.  (There's a link in the heading. You should listen to it!)  Eerie - listening to the author, reading her own story with a strong Georgian accent. You can hear the laughter from the audience - at certain places where I didn't understand as humorous.  After a few times you understand that whenever Tennessee and Georgia are mentioned, the crowd is going to respond.  
As the story got darker, the number of laughs are fewer - except for some of the Grandma's statements at the end, insisting that the Misfit is a GOOD MAN.
It sounded as if she had the audience in the palm of her hand, though - a "sure touch" as Pat calls it -  knowing she'd get laughs when describing herself as a real lady...dressed in case of an accident.

Pedln...the part I did find funny - when she and the children talked son Bailey into pulling off the highway to the dirt road in order to find the house with the secret silver treasure. -after the accident, when she suddenly rememberd that the house wasn't in Georgia, after all - but in Tennessee.  Don't know why that tickled me - maybe it was a mistake I would have made - and then regretted.

Will we together be able to figure out why this story endures, why it is still recognized as an example of an outstanding short story?
Does she use her "sarcastic, vaguely humorous manner" for social commentary?  I'm trying to figure out what her message is in the story.

[pedln]

The title of the story comes from a 1927 song popularized by Bessie Smith. I need to reread the story again to see what is the connection.

Lyrics to A Good Man Is Hard To Find :
My heart is sad and I'm all alone
my man's treating me mean
I regret the day that I was born
And the man I ever seen

My happiness is less today
My heart is broke, that's why I say
Lord, a good man is hard to find
You always get another kind

Just when you think that he's your pal
You look and find him foolin' 'round some old gal
Then you rave, you all crave
You want to see him in his grave

So if your man is nice, take my advice;
Hug him in the morning, kiss him at night
Give him plenty lovin'; treat your good man right

Oh, a good man is so hard to find
We always get that roughed old kind
Just when you think that he's your pal
You like and find him hangin' 'round some old gal

Then you rave, how you crave
You wanna see him dead layin' in his grave

So if your man is nice, take my advice
Hug him in the morning, kiss him at night
Give him plenty love madam, treat your man right
'Cause a good man nowadays sure is hard to find

[marcie]

I'm finding everyone's comments interesting. I thought we might be able to ease into talking about this work by focusing on the humorous parts but I understand that it's probably not realistic. The end of the novel is so shocking that we should talk about that first and then, if we want to, go back to some of the humor. Pat and JoanP did mention a couple of the comedic touches:

Because of the way the grandmother is dressed, "In case of an accident, anyone seeing her dead on the highway would know at once that she was a lady."

"The grandmother was curled up under the dashboard, hoping she was injured so that Bailey's wrath would not come down on her all at once. The horrible thought she had had before the accident was that the house she had remembered so vividly was not in Georgia but in Tennessee."

Thank you for posting the lyrics of the song, Pedln. I hope it will  help us try to figure out the meaning of the title. I'm still thinking about the title and would like to hear what you all think.

[marcie]

It might be helpful for us in talking about this story to know that she intended the ending to be hopeful. We don't have to accept her interpretation of her work, and some people don't. And some people who do accept her intentions, just don't like the way that she uses violence--and the grotesque--to get her point across.

I've read all of Flannery O'Connor's short stories and novels. And I've read a couple of books about her work. She also wrote quite a bit about her writing and gave talks about her work.

From what I've read by and about Flannery O'Connor, she was radically committed to her religious views. She believed everyone had a moment of "grace" when they were given the opportunity to take that leap of faith and either accept or reject the Divine in his/her life.  She thought that most of the people in contemporary life (this story was written in 1953) were “hostile” to this message and that “a writer with Christian concerns needed to take ever more violent means to get her vision across to them."  I don't think that we have to agree with her views (some of us may or we may not) in order to try to figure out what the story might mean. It's helpful for me to try to understand what she was trying to do in order for me to see possible interpretations, especially of the ending.

Here is something that Flannery said about this story:

"We hear many complaints about the prevalence of violence in modern fiction, and it is always assumed that this violence is bad thing and meant to be an end in itself.  With the serious writer, violence is never an end in itself.  It is the extreme situation that best reveals what we are essentially, and I believe these are times when writers are more interested in what we are essentially than in the tenor of our daily lives.  Violence is a force which can be used for good or evil, and among other things taken by it is the kingdom of heaven.  But regardless of what can be taken by it, the man in the violent situation reveals those qualities least dispensable in his personality, those qualities which are all he will have to take into eternity with him; and since the characters in this story are all on the verge of eternity, it is appropriate to think of what they take with them.  In any case, I hope that if you consider these points in connection with the story, you will come to see it as something more than an account of a family murdered on the way to Florida. "

[BarbStAubrey]

I remember reading this years ago as a very young mother - I think it was in a magazine and I remember my rueful nodding and smirking while reading it - since then we have had M.A.S.H and Catch 22 that helps to show how black/dark humor works.

Back in the 50s and 60s we would call this family White Trash - I think now we call folks with no manners who are rough with each other all fighting for control, Trailer Trash. The kids are crude and rude - Grandma wants to run the show which is undermining her Son and the Son/Father exploded when things get too much for him where as, the wife, typical of the status of women at the time, says nothing just trying to hold on. She probably has little control over her kids because this was the time in history when many young mothers talked with sarcasm about how either their mother or their husband's mother interfered. Many did not even want to visit because the older mother's so ruined the kids it took them weeks to get things back to how the children's mother saw proper behavior. The kids were probably running wild because they had no clear idea of their boundaries. But in the story in spite of all the rough talk and uncooperative behavior they all think they are 'good'.

Then, like Catch 22 or M.A.S.H they experience how helpless they are learning their version of 'good' has no value, no legs, it is as if another epic center makes the judgements. The Misfit to me is not a character to judge as either good or bad - he is like a loose canyon without the morals we take for granted. He is that force that others experience that prompted books soon after, often written by Ministers like, "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" - I see the story showing us that just being 'good' does not protect you from what is a force we prefer to think does not exist and if it does exist we must lock it away or kill it.

This force we see as having no rhyme or reason and we have not adapted the Chaos Theory to human behavior to see if that is how this force works. We cannot get rid of this force, we have not learned how to live with it and if we see any of its ugly head we try to put it in a narrow box like a cell or kill it outright. We fight wars by demonizing the other side thinking, like this family, we are 'good' and they are 'bad'.

I also think the story brings into question the leadership of a family which than can be extended to the leadership in a community and a nation. Is it; wants, experience, position based on earning power, the strongest, the one with the gun - how do we determine leadership and how does a Democratic system work with so many conflicting wants and values as well as, those who do not share any of the values the majority share in addition those who do 'bad' things.

[marcie]

Like all complex stories, I think that this one is open to many interpretations. Barbara, you are seeing the Misfit as standing for a force/catalyst that acts on individuals and to which we react.

You also bring up the idea of "good" and which people think they (or some others) are good and what that might mean. Does the idea of "good" change in the story? What is "good" seems to be one of the major aspects of the story.

[PatH]

Your post is really helpful, marcie, as are your comments, Barb.  When I read this story, I was torn between wanting to try to forget it completely and wanting to tease it apart and see what she is saying.  The second has won out, and I'm going to work hard at figuring my interpretation.

O'Connor's comment fits well with the only other story of hers that I've read (Greenleaf).

[BarbStAubrey]

I remember when I first read it having other dark ideas when they boy was taken into the woods - forgot the father accompanied him - and at first I was not thinking they were being killed but knew something was happening - our minds think so much faster than we can read, hear or speak and I remember thinking the grandmother and kids deserved their come-up-pence - and then I remember not being able to comprehend their death as real - it was going to be a fantasy nightmare as a result of their accident but when the Grandmother is killed there was no more fantasy nightmare -

Which said and still says to me what we do not see we make up our own minds as to what happens regardless the facts - what is seen we believe - I remember those many years ago having that thought and then trying to come to terms with my feeling I was being like Thomas in the Bible after he sees Jesus upon His resurrection he has to put his fingers in the wounds before he will believe.  

I wonder today if I still do that - I am thinking as a nation we still do it over war when we do not have the pictures of the slaughter or as recent movies are finally showing what really happens when soldiers are in a fire fight and loose one of their men - we see the outlines of war just as we see the outlines of anything uncomfortable and on those outlines that can be very deceiving we make our judgements.

[JudeS]

Barb
"When Bad Things Happen to Good People" is not by a Minister but by a Rabbi. His son was born with a horrendous disease and the book, which has helped millions, shows how the family learned to cope with the boy's debilitating illness. It also deals with the grieving process before, during and after his death. I see no relationship to this story.

In Flannery O'Connor's story their is no grief, only mindless killing.

Comparing the story to M.A.S.H. is also beyond my understanding. I thought that program was about GOOD doctors trying to save soldiers lives. Even if the war is incomprehensible , the doctors, though flawed, are doing GOOD.
This show was voted as the most popular one ever to appear  on TV.

 Flannery O'Connor's story is about incomprehensible EVIL.

If this story is about Catholicism then what is it telling us?
1)Be prepared to die at a moments notice?
2)Good people will continue their lives in Heaven?
3) If you're not a Catholic your fate is not important to God?
4)if you don't convert to Catholicism you will rot in Limbo?

This story stands in dark contrast to Frank O Connor's delightful story which puts religion in it's rightful place.  Religion as a thought process that  tries to guide you to live as good a life as possible no matter the circumstances. Now that story contains  true humor and not bitter ridicule.

[BarbStAubrey]

I do not see the story as particular to any one religion - I see it as a story where we all think we are good regardless that we are disrespectful, unkind, seeing the world through our own eyes, and expecting the world to fit our idea of good and bad. We know that good and bad is cultural and we also know that a child pummeled with abuse is more likely to be abusive - we can only imagine what life as a child a person like The Misfit must have experienced growing up - however, I do think his name The Misfit says volumes about how we see behavior that does not fit our understanding of what is good - we give much credence to being good and doing good but is that a truth or a cultural cornerstone.

Yes, Jude I knew the author and I am sorry I miss saying both rabies and ministers because where I was using the book as an example there was a lot of books and questioning about bad things happening to good people from books about the survivors of the Holocaust to those experiencing random crime as well as to those who were out of the blue handling a debilitating illness. I am remembering so many conversations about the value of being good and what we expected and if we are only good because we expect a certain return.

Jude are you seeing the questions you listed as themes the story is suggesting to you? Do you think the story is saying we should be ready to die at a moment's notice? And if so what does that mean for you.

I reread and not sure - I hope you can share how, where in the story there is a suggestion that, if you are not a Catholic your fate is not important to God? I could not find that reference.

Do you think the Grandmother looking up at the sky was symbolic of the belief that she would continua to live her life in Heaven? I wonder than if she gets passed the Pearly gates having been non-supportive of her Son in his fatherhood? She talked a good game to The Misfit didn't she. Maybe that is it, when you think you are about to die you attempt to postpone it by converting the one who holds your life in their hands.  

Jude I do not think everyone believes in Limbo even among Catholics and I had not seen Limbo referred to in the story - was there something in the story that suggested to you that these folks, if any of them were Catholic or if they are not Catholic they had Limbo on their minds?

Now that you bring it up that would be a great discussion wouldn't it - what is Evil? Wow...I would think the taking of a life but then we send boys off to fight knowing they will be taking the life of another - wow lots to sort out to determine evil - do you think it has to do with the manner that life is taken - that if there is ceremony like when we electrocute someone or when in war a firing squad is used - I really do not have answers but I think it would be a fascinating conversation.

I agree that M.A.S.H is about doctors trying to do good however, in the face of unending death and havoc to the human bodies they administer to which in context is bad, so that to cope with the unending bad, that they cannot control like they can stop the bleeding wounds, they joke about the rude the crude and ways to disenfranchise the army and anyone who attempts to live the straight and narrow. Yes, the doctors are trying to do good however, the story is about a situation that is anything but supporting the good - That unseen element comes in where we do not see the bad where as, in this story we see the bad - I think these parents were trying to support the good - I see there are degrees of bad in this story - no, the Grandmother does not kill but then, she is no angel either. And I bet if your kids talked that way, they would be chastised - I know mine would be but then, why do we insist our kids learn to be respectful - why do we expect them to be good - and how often when teaching a child to be good we are actually not giving them the attitude and tools to take care of themselves in certain situations.

I think the whole question of 'good' is fascinating and we could really delve into it for weeks on end.

[marcie]

I'm very glad that you are sticking with the discussion even though we found the story very disturbing. It's interesting to me that, although Flannery O'Connor was a Catholic, most of the characters she writes about in her stories (when she identifies their religion) are Protestant. I don't think that she is focusing on people's religious affiliation so much as whether or not, in the circumstance of some violent or grotesque situation, they are willing to accept a gift of divine inspiration/life (which she thinks of as "grace"). In her religious views, people are given a chance to participate or not in the Divine Mystery. It's a gift they are offered and not based on merit. I guess at least some of that is consistent with other Christian thought that people do not merit salvation. Their faith enables them to be one with their God who freely gives salvation to all sinners who accept his unconditional love.  I'm just trying to get into the author's head here and not saying that we need to believe as she did in order to interpret her work and find reasons to continue to tackle the story.

I think that re-reading the ending in light of what Flannery O'Connor said will help us to focus on what happens just before the grandmother's death, rather than on the killing itself: "the man in the violent situation reveals those qualities least dispensable in his personality, those qualities which are all he will have to take into eternity with him; and since the characters in this story are all on the verge of eternity, it is appropriate to think of what they take with them."

Are there changes in the grandmother in her final moments? Do we see any changes in the Misfit?

[JudeS]

After perusing four articles on Flannery O'Connor I came up with the realization that her father died of Lupus when she was 14 . She, herself, was diagnosed with this (at the time) incurable disease at age 29. She lived another ten years and died at 39.
So yes, I do think my question about death striking at any time is relevant to this author.
Also the religious idea that God has a plan for us was in her mindset.
Her devout Catholicism is mentioned over and over.

Even the death of these poor,  average people is part of a plan. The Misfit is the horrible Deux Ex Machina that brings the horror about. But the cat that causes the accident is also part of the cause of this tragedy.

I simply feel that by making fun of these so average people at the beginning we are being set up for the horror that follows: i.e. the contrast is so startling that it is mind bending.
However, what remains for me is the picture of the poor Mother, with her broken shoulder and baby in her other arm being shot with her five year old daughter being killed with her.

Did the world really need this particular image? I don't think so.

[Zulema]

Hello, good people,

I haven't taken part because I've had surgery and I am recovering and came here to visit with you today.  As for Flannery O'Connor's stories I think they are tours-de-force of what a short story should be (think of Hawthorne's Twice Told Tales) A lot of them are meant to be shockers.  I have a book of her stories, I have read some, and the truth is I don't want to read them again.  I haven't read the one we are discussing for years.  I admire people like O'Connor who can be creative in the face of pain and illness, but I don't want to read her at my point in life.  I can see that my feelings are shared by many of you here.

[BarbStAubrey]

The issue of Grace is a difficult one isn't it - right on the razor's edge of pre-detination - this unseen Grace that is or isn't for us - that we cannot control but is a Gift - it appears The Misfit does not have the Gift -

Marcie from what you are sharing about Flannery O'Connor it sounds to me like her philosophy is rooted in Meister Eckhart -

Deadly sin is a breach of nature, for every man's nature is an image and likeness and mirror of the Trinity, of Godhead and of eternity. All these together are marred by a deadly sin; therefore, it is a breach of nature. Such sin is also the death of the soul, for death is to lose life. Now God is the life of the soul, and deadly sin separates from God; therefore it is a death of the soul. Deadly sin is a disquiet of the heart...

...Deadly sin is also a weakening of the powers, for by his own power no one can throw off the load of sin nor restrain himself from committing sin. It is also a blindness of the sense, for it prevents a man recognizing how brief is the space of time that can be spent in the pleasure of voluptuousness.

Deadly sin is also a death of all grace, for whenever such a sin is committed, the soul is bereft of all grace. Similarly, it is the death of all virtue and good works, and an aberration of the spirit. It is also a fellowship with the Devil, for everything hath fellowship with its like; and sin maketh the soul and Satan resemble each other.

Meister Eckhart continues...

Now, people say when they commit sin, that they do not intend to do so always; they intend to turn away from sin. That is just
as though a man were to kill himself and suppose that he could make him self alive again by his own strength. That is, however, impossible; but to turn from sin by one's own power and come to God is still much more impossible. Therefore, whosoever is to turn from sin and come
to God in His heavenly kingdom, must be drawn by the heavenly Father with the might of His divine power...

...Now, this grace springs from the center of Godhead and the Father's heart, and flows perpetually, nor ever ceases, if the soul obeys His everlasting love. Therefore He saith in the prophets: "I have loved thee with an everlasting love, therefore with loving kindness have I drawn thee."

Given what this thirteenth century mystic says as a basis for understanding the story - and if this is the philosophy understood by Flannery O'Connor - than we have to look at the end of the story as redemption for the Misfit.  This is where philosophy stretches us as humans - whew this is a difficult one given his 'sins' but at the end of the story The Misfit says,

"Jesus was the only One that ever raised the dead," The Misfit continued, "and He shouldn't have done it. He shown everything off balance. If He did what He said, then it's nothing for you to do but thow away everything and follow Him, and if He didn't, then it's nothing for you to do but enjoy the few minutes you got left the best way you can by killing somebody or burning down his house or doing some other meanness to him. No pleasure but meanness," he said and his voice had become almost a snarl...

..."I wasn't there so I can't say He didn't," The Misfit said. "I wisht I had of been there," he said, hitting the ground with his fist. "It ain't right I wasn't there because if I had of been there I would of known. Listen lady," he said in a high voice, "if I had of been there I would of known and I wouldn't be like I am now." His voice seemed about to crack...

...Without his glasses, The Misfit's eyes were red-rimmed and pale and defenseless-looking. "Take her off and thow her where you thown the others," he said, picking up the cat that was rubbing itself against his leg.

"She would of been a good woman," The Misfit said, "if it had been somebody there to shoot her every minute of her life."

Shut up, Bobby Lee," The Misfit said. "It's no real pleasure in life."

Says to me that The Misfit would have been open to being drawn in but he had no faith or grace in what he did not know first hand - like Thomas - and therefore by his logic with proof he would have picked up and followed however, Eckhart said, "but to turn from sin by one's own power and come to God is still much more impossible. Therefore, whosoever is to turn from sin and come to God in His heavenly kingdom, must be drawn by the heavenly Father with the might of His divine power..."  The heavenly Father's divine power did not reach out to The Misfit.

And if you take all this out of the realm of religion the story suggests we are living in a chaotic system affected by butterflies in China as well as, a slight alteration to the eight second interval on a highway that can mean the difference between life and death or why a tornado will take one house and not another. Evil exists, why? - Can we ever eliminate it? - Is the world's humanity dependent on a system that must include evil? Or maybe, looking at God as running the show holds no water...

[marcie]

Jude, thanks for sharing that information about Flannery's medical condition and the fact that she knew she wasn't going to live a long life. I didn't get the feeling that she was singling out individual characters for ridicule and that there was someone in or above the story that was 'superior' to them. They all seemed to me to get similar treatment from her and much of it was addressed from her comic perspective. Of course, humor is very personal and not all types of humor works for everyone. I can understand your reaction to her humor and to her depictions of violence.

Zulema, it is good to see you here. I'm glad you are recovering and hope that you feel all right.  Thanks for posting even if you don't want to read her stories again. I hope you'll join one of our upcoming discussions.

Barbara, it's known that Flannery O'Connor had an extensive theological library.  I don't know if Eckhart was a part of it, or whether she would embrace his views, but I agree with you that some of his quotes you bring up could well relate to her views.

What do you all think of the Misfit? Does he show any potential for change at the end? Did what the grandmother say to him plant a seed for the future?

Barbara quotes him above:
"Jesus was the only One that ever raised the dead," The Misfit continued, "and He shouldn't have done it. He shown everything off balance. If He did what He said, then it's nothing for you to do but thow away everything and follow Him, and if He didn't, then it's nothing for you to do but enjoy the few minutes you got left the best way you can by killing somebody or burning down his house or doing some other meanness to him. No pleasure but meanness," he said and his voice had become almost a snarl...

Then, after he shoots the grandmother he says: "Shut up, Bobby Lee," The Misfit said. "It's no real pleasure in life."  

He didn't take pleasure in the killing as he says he usually does. Does that small change hint at a possible conversion down the road? Do you think there is any hope for that? Do you find any other possible clues in the story?

[JoanP]

Have you noticed that we're discussing these short stories in chronological order?  Some of you have already noted the growing turmoil of the 50's reflected in this story...  I don't think the upcoming stories are going to begin to take us back to Frank O'Connor's  sweet heartwarming, satisfying story.  We're going to be moving on from here to Ursula LeGuin, Annie Proulx, Alice Munro - with growing awareness of the changing times.

I understand why some of you were turned off by this story, but also admire those who are willing to delve into the meaning of O'Connor's story - to understand why it is considered an outstanding example of the short story.

Here's something I came across today while looking for more information on the annual Flannery O'Connor Short Story Award out of  the University of Georgia.  - Here's an excerpt on last  year's winners:

"Congratulations to all for creating compelling short fiction. The award-winning books selected in last year's competition, LOVE, IN THEORY by E.J. Levy ("Sad, funny, and always wise, Levy’s stories reveal truths about how we love and lose, trust and betray") and THE INVISIBLES by Hugh Sheehy ("A little violence goes a long way and the lurking fear at the heart of these stories elevates them beyond the merely promising to reveal a wicked new talent"), will release in September and October, respectively."

[JoanP]

I've been thinking about today's question - "Does the Misfit show any potential for change at the end?"  He almost has to, doesn't he?  I mean, if he doesn't, what is O'Connor's point?

To get to the answer, don't we need to consider the grandma too?  Didn't she undergo change at the end?  I remember Jude questioning whether O'Connor hated her own grandmother, she criticized this grandma so severely.  Just one example that stuck in my mind...when they were driving by the little Negro boy wearing no britches.  Grandma explained country people don't have things like we do. If I could paint, I'd paint that picture"  She saw the need, but her only reaction was to paint a picture of that child.  
I think her reaction tells a lot about the grandma - and maybe a lot about the society at the time.

When she said this, the children exchanged comic looks.  An instance where she might have taught them some compassion was turned into something laughable.

I see a parallel - The Misfit could kill without compassion.  Grandma, if she could would paint a picture of poverty, without compassion.

At the end, did Grandma become the means of actually changing the Misfit's heart? Was there a glimmer of hope - besides the fact that he no longer felt the pleasure of killing?  Will have to go back and look at him more closely.

[BarbStAubrey]

ewww yes, JoanP that maybe part of why the story feels so base - there is a lack of compassion - along with that there is not much feelings displayed by any of them - the Grandmother feels fear and guilt and a love for The Misfit as a human not for what he is doing when she instinctly reaches out seeing him as one of her babies. In fact she is the only one in the story with a range of feelings isn't she - although she shows no grief when she realizes her son and her grandson were shot - her only reaction is self-preservation.

The father shows annoyance with some anger - the mother nothing - the kids as most kids only think of themselves and what crosses their mind looking for and seeing, seeking and gobbling up as much sensation as if chipmunks nosing in a forest of leaves for food. The Misfit only recoils we can assume in fear of sentiment or kindness - he does not do the killing but could remind us of a leader of death like Hitler or Stalin. And his stooges, Bobby Lee and Hiram only try to elicit The Misfit's good opinion about them.

Thanks JoanP for bringing up the time in history this story was written - sounds like the children of the 50s were raised in a way to assure the 'me' generation. And seeing the lack of compassion was almost a signature of the era wasn't it. And silent mothers, that was the way with Grandmother's only job being housekeeping and child rearing so they were replaced with no future by the younger crop of women. Many went kicking and screaming into the good night of redundancy. In addition we were still in shock having learned as the war was coming to a close of the concentration/death camps and then the Gulags and massive deaths ordered by Stalin.  

[marcie]

Joan and Barbara, I appreciate your bringing up the era in which this story is written. Literature changed radically.

I've been thinking about today's question - "Does the Misfit show any potential for change at the end?"  He almost has to, doesn't he?  I mean, if he doesn't, what is O'Connor's point?To get to the answer, don't we need to consider the grandma too?  Didn't she undergo change at the end? 

Joan, I think you're right that we need to look at the grandmother and what change occured in her at the end. I think from the author's point of view, it's the key to the story.

[JoanP]

I can't stop thinking about the grandma...insisting the Misfit is a good man...even while it is clear her family is being slaughtered in the woods.  Don't you think she knows what is happening? Is it only when her own life is threatened that she becomes aware of the danger she herself is in  and tries to convince him that he wouldn't shoot a lady?

She considers herself a lady, she's dressed like one.  Does that make her a lady? Morally superior?  A good person?
 What does she mean when she calls the Misfit "a good man?"  Well brought up?  A gentleman?  From a good family?  honest, decent, kind?  

I can see the hypocrisy in this woman...from the first.  But I need help connecting the dots to find out what's going on with the Misfit...what O"Connor is telling us about his character.  Is he a good man?  How has his encounter with this woman changed him?
 

[salan]

No, I don't think the Misfit is a good man.  After all, A Good Man is Hard to Find!  I think the grandma is trying to convince herself and him that he is a good man.  Why didn't she react more when she realized her family was being killed???  I didn't like this story and didn't find my life enriched by having read it.  Grrrrr.
Sally

[BarbStAubrey]

I think she was trapped in a no win situation and that is how I think many of us see the story as if the Misfit is a force like a Tornado with no rhyme or reason and no way to control him, stop him so that we can feel the helpless situation the other characters are in. Regardless if they are 'good' or not our idea of human dignity says this is out of control - A piece of us knows what it feels like to have no power to alter events and it is beyond scary.

When this kind of event happens in real life, we are safe in our home reading or hearing it on the news and we can have our opinion and we can also turn off the news. Where as this story puts in our face the concept of situations in life being out of control bringing death in its wake - It is one thing to die or even be killed but to be toyed with like a mouse caught in the claws of a cat is very unsettling.

Somehow we would like to place blame on someone to make the scenario seem more tolerable and logical - if this had happened or if someone acted differently this would not be taking place but the story suggests nothing the victims could do would affect this illogical out-of-control tornado that is The Misfit. No one would be spared and you even get the sense that Bobby Lee and Hiram are tiptoeing concerned they can hold onto their lives.

I think reading this we feel the kind of terror that we've felt watching the illogical out-of-control horrible deaths and destruction witnessed on TV during 9/11 - yes in our lifetime there has been many more horrors but we were not a witness so there is not the same impact - that is why I think this story is now so hard to read.

[marcie]

Joan, there's a lot of description of clothing in the story. I agree with you that the grandmother is all about outward appearances up until the end of the story. As PatH pointed out, near the beginning of the story, the grandmother knew that because of the way she dressed, "In case of an accident, anyone seeing her dead on the highway would know at once that she was a lady." She doesn't go beyond the surface.

Joan, it seems that the idea of "good" changes in the story. Regarding the Misfit, I agree with you, salan, that the grandmother "is trying to convince herself and him that he is a good man." As her family is killed one by one, she becomes more desperate. She seems to be in shock, understandably.  After she brings up Jesus raising the dead, the Misfit says:

"I wasn't there so I can't say He didn't," The Misfit said. "I wisht I had of been there," he said, hitting the ground with his fist. "It ain't right I wasn't there because if I had of been there I would of known. Listen lady," he said in a high voice, "if I had of been there I would of known and I wouldn't be like I am now." His voice seemed about to crack and the grandmother's head cleared for an instant. She saw the man's face twisted close to her own as if he were going to cry and she murmured, "Why you're one of my babies. You're one of my own children !"

I think this must be the key point of the story.

I found some remarks that Flannery gave at a reading at Hollins College, Virginia in  1963.  In introducing her "A Good Man Is Hard to Find," O'Connor touches upon the function of violence and the grotesque in her fiction, especially in relation to the characters of the Grandmother and the Misfit in the story at http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/lewiss/Oconnor.htm

Flannery says about that point in the story:
"I often ask myself what makes a story work, and what makes it hold up as a story, and I have decided that it is probably some action, some gesture of a character that is unlike any other in the story, one which indicates where the real heart of the story lies.  This would have to be an action or a gesture which was both totally right and totally unexpected; it would have to be one that was both in character and beyond character; it would have to suggest both the world and eternity.  The action or gesture I'm talking about would have to be on the anagogical level, that is, the level which has to do with the Divine life and our participation in it.  It would be a gesture that transcended any neat allegory that might have been intended or any pat moral categories a reader could make.  It would be a gesture which somehow made contact with mystery.
     There is a point in this story where such a gesture occurs.  The Grandmother is at last alone, facing the Misfit.  Her head clears for an instant and she realizes. even in her limited way, that she is responsible for the man before her and joined to him by ties of kinship which have their roots deep in the mystery she has been merely prattling about so far.  And at this point, she does the right thing, she makes the right gesture. "

After he shoots her the Misfit says: "She would of been a good woman," The Misfit said, "if it had been somebody there to shoot her every minute of her life." Even though he jumped away from her when the grandmother said he was one of her own children (which Flannery says is to be taken on a spiritual level), the Misfit seems to recognize that she showed the capacity to be "good" at the moment before her death. She drops her superior attitude and perceives her and the Misfit’s common humanity (on a spiritual level, according to Flannery's faith and beliefs). The Misfit seems to be saying that if the grandmother could have lived her life at "gunpoint," she could have seen the world from a deeper, radical perspective.

So, to get back to your question, JoanP, about whether the Misfit is "good" at any point in the story, I don't know. He now seems to be able to recognize "good" in the grandmother's final words. Does that, coupled with his last words in the story, "It's no real pleasure in life" lead us to think he's going to change? We're told he's someone who, even as a little boy, was always thinking about things and wouldn't let them go.

[marcie]

 Barbara, I think you're right that the story sets us in the acts of violence and doesn't suggest a way out of them. To quote from the link I gave in the post above, Flannery says why she uses violence in her work. In her stories, she wants us to look at what is most basic/most essential in the individuals she writes about. She thinks that they will best reveal this if she places them in a violent, sometimes deathly, situation.

"We hear many complaints about the prevalence of violence in modern fiction, and it is always assumed that this violence is bad thing and meant to be an end in itself.  With the serious writer, violence is never an end in itself.  It is the extreme situation that best reveals what we are essentially, and I believe these are times when writers are more interested in what we are essentially than in the tenor of our daily lives.  Violence is a force which can be used for good or evil, and among other things taken by it is the kingdom of heaven.  But regardless of what can be taken by it, the man in the violent situation reveals those qualities least dispensable in his personality, those qualities which are all he will have to take into eternity with him; and since the characters in this story are all on the verge of eternity, it is appropriate to think of what they take with them.  In any case, I hope that if you consider these points in connection with the story, you will come to see it as something more than an account of a family murdered on the way to Florida.

[JoanP]

Sally, your reaction is understood - the violence was so unexpected, and so...violent, wasn't it?  You have to wonder WHY? What was O'Connor's point?   You have to wonder how those who read O'Connor's story reacted when it was published too.  Did they understand - better than we did, what she was saying - did they need "translation"?

Marcie, thank you so much for delving into O'Connor's reason for the violence...I'll repeat it, because it is so helpful...

"I often ask myself what makes a story work, and what makes it hold up as a story, and I have decided that it is probably some action, some gesture of a character that is unlike any other in the story, one which indicates where the real heart of the story lies.  This would have to be an action or a gesture which was both totally right and totally unexpected" Flannery O'Connor

And you've drawn our attention to the two out-of-character statements, that now explains the significance of the violence - and the meaning of the two sentences that most puzzled me...

"Why you're one of my babies. You're one of my own children !"

.  What a statement from a judgemental woman who felt herself morally superiour from everyone - to recognize that she was no better than this Misfit!

"She would of been a good woman," The Misfit said, "if it had been somebody there to shoot her every minute of her life."

.  The misfit understands the grandma's last gesture - and sees the good in her, and in what she has said..only at the end of your life...when confronted with death.

Whew!  How much of this was apparent to her readers back in the 50's?  How was the story received?

[marcie]

Joan, that's a great question. We know she won several awards but I don't know how the regular reader received her work.  I found an article about her -- really about the town where she grew up -- at http://travel.nytimes.com/2007/02/04/travel/04Flannery.html?ref=flanneryoconnor. It has some interesting information.

[JudeS]

I read the two articles suggested i.e. the one of her lecture before reading aloud our story and the other about her town.

I am left with some questions which I would be happy to receive an answer to. She spoke as if her words were intelligible to all. However please explain , if you understand.
1)"It is true that the old lady is a hypercritical old soul, her wits are no match for the Misfits, NOR IS HER CAPACITY FOR GRACE EQUAL TO HIS".
What is this Grace she talks about so much?  She also says that the Misfit is meant to be a prophet.
I know what a prophet is. Does his statement about the Grandmother would have been a good woman if someone had held a gun to her all her life, make him a prophet??
2)The other statement which is incomprehensible to me is: "Violence is a force which can be used for good or evil, and among other things, TAKEN BY IT IS THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN."

I realize her allusions all relate to the teachings of the Catholic Church. Is anyone steeped in that theology enough to explain these statements?

[BarbStAubrey]

It was in the mid to maybe late 1950s when I did read this story - when my toddlers took their afternoon nap I read - it was during the time when I was reading things Like God's Little Acre and Grapes of Wrath - I shared earlier my reaction at the time was related to how the Misfit wanted proof about Jesus and I also remember thinking what it must have been like to live in the space described that was his cell and to be there knowing you did not commit the crime that was the reason you were in jail.

Only reading this story and JoanP bringing to our attention the time in history that I could see the analogies and symbolism to both Hitler and Stalin I am seeing there was a huge change that happened to us as a society after WWII - I think the nation had PTSD - it was like something went out of us after learning about the concentration camps - there was a shift in trying to grapple with inhumanity on a scale we could not fathom - there was enough movie reels showing the victims and the burying and when they marched the German folks from the surrounding villages in to see - we were numb trying to comprehend - It was as if many of us lived in a fog during that decade - trying to do the 'right' thing - men trying to forget and become educated with the GI Bill that paid their way and then buying their first house - no radical opinions - women were non-entities and men were the grey flannel suit type climbing the corporate ladder with their wives expected to be trophy wives in the kitchen.

Before WWII there was the depression and regardless the official declaration it was over in the mid 30s for most folks it was not over till the war started. So the idea of a road trip was new as well as, this was the first time companies were arranging for families to relocate therefore, there were more road trips back to where ever was home. TV was in its infancy and most read the newspaper. I do not remember a regular news program on the radio. In the 50s there were still road gangs and prisoners working in some of the fields always with a guard or two on horseback rifle in hand.

Escaped or released prisoners that were on a rampage were taken for granted I think - I also think folks like Bonnie and Clyde were recent enough so their myth was alive and well - we knew they killed indiscriminately and left alone those they liked or who helped them or were simply poor old ladies. Part of the Grandmother character would be reminiscent of the kind of folks that those on the run left alone or who those on the run turned to for a kindness. I am remembering radio bulletins announcing a prison break and asking us not to assist or feed them or later in the decade to lock our doors.

[BarbStAubrey]

Jude interesting questions - Look I cannot talk for all Catholics - just as the Jewish faith has several movements and branches so do Catholics - this was written before Vatican II when some changes were made - remember the issues debated and voted on in a conclave like Vatican II are not pulled out of the blue but are issues that have been rumbling for a long time with various working theologians within the church writing and preaching with a different outlook than the official one that we can read about coming from Rome. Rome being both the Pope and the Curia which is like the government of the church.

My background is not with the diocesan priests and bishops who follow a liturgy (customs, way mass is said, music, holy days celebrated etc.) outlined in Rome - I grew up in churches and schools run by either the Benedictines, the Carmelites or the Dominicans that before Vatican II had their own liturgy that influenced our understanding of the church. Before Vatican II (in the 1960s) there were 54 rites in the church - that is 54 different traditions, ways of saying mass, theologies etc. Vatican II reduced it to 26 rites. Order priests are like belonging to a corporation - they get their charter to operate and must follow the laws of the state and nation but they are independent and no state or national representative is telling them how to daily operate as long as they obey the laws of the land. I say all that because I may not be matching another's memory of the meaning of your questions.

Grace we are taught is a gift from God - some in the church believe it is bestowed only as a gift where others believe you can earn Grace by acts of good works and prayers. That was the big money earner during the middle ages - priests would sell indulgences (prayers)which was supposed to reduce your time in purgatory which is different than limbo but similar. You can get further into Grace since there are two kinds but for the story lets keep it simple. It appears from what has been said about the author she is talking about Grace as a gift - but she could be saying with good works - not good thoughts - but good works - Grace can be added to the life of the soul.

Basic to all Catholics, regardless of differing theologies and their prayer life is the belief that Jesus is the son of God - now there are differences that prompted in the past all sorts of inquisitions and reprisals because some groups believed Jesus was just the son of God and not man and other groups believed he was man who became after his death part of the God head. It took the church over 1000 years of arguing that point before it finally made it into Canon Law. The early church eliminated the gospels of anyone, like the Gnostics, who did not fall in line with the majority thinking that Jesus was both God and Man.

All that to say that the death and crucifixion followed by his ascension into heaven was for the purpose of opening the gates of heaven that were shut after Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden of paradise. As kids I remember we used to have a class day of imagining all the millions of souls waiting all those centuries outside the gates of heaven and all rushing forward to get in - now the entire idea of heaven - where it is - souls after death - is adjusted because we know more about the universe so this so called heaven is in question. There are now books written that explain the history of the idea of hell and heaven used as a way to control behavior and not as something to hang our hat on. However the belief in the soul and in grace as a gift holds firm. But back in the 1950s and O'Connor probably is suggesting that without the violence of the crucifixion the gates of heaven would still be closed.

There is also the whole thing in the church about a just war and the definition of what makes a war just, that many of us are questioning along with some serious theologians questioning - the history is too long for these posts. As I learned in school there are many active theologies within the church - the variety of rites being an example - but only one that represents the official church. Only now with technology are many of us even aware of the official theology just as I am thinking and do not know but I would think a Reform Jew would not know all the aspects of thinking and religious practices of conservative Judaism. All Jews have the Torah in common however, different groups appear to interpret what is said in their own way.

I think the author is using the word prophet not in the holy sense similar to prophets in the bible but a take off on the concept that learned wisdom and foreseeing are characteristics of a prophet and with a gun to her head - I think his only way to relate - but with fear instilled in her she would have acted on her better nature.

[PatH]

Jude asks some very hard questions.  One crucial point is, what does O'Connor mean by grace?  Here's a dictionary definition that sort of fits my notion of her meaning:

 (in Christian belief) the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings.

I think of it as a chance to see God's truth.

O'Connor says that everyone has a moment in which they have a chance to accept God's grace, and this occurs for the grandmother when she sees that the Misfit is part of her--we are all part of each other, responsible for each other, God's creation--and touches him on the shoulder.  He is horrified, shies like a startled horse, and shoots her.  He must see a bit of what she is seeing, and can't accept it.

My beliefs are not O'Connor's, and I have little experience with Catholic theology, so I could be getting it all wrong.

[BarbStAubrey]

PatH I believe many Christian Protestant groups have a belief in Grace as a gift - as I understand it though most see it as a gift, not something you can accept it is simply bestowed and you realize its impact or not but it is not bestowed on everyone - that sounds too much like ancient thinking to me like the whole selection concept that even placed your worth because of health, gender and lineage placing you in essentially different castes although in the west we call it class systems. But then that is me questioning with knowledge not available in the 1950s.

My thinking and I have not read any book on it but if someone is not given the gift I wonder if that is how folks can blame the horrors that some perpetrate on others - culturally today we look at their childhood but I wonder if the religious attempt to trace the badness to not having received the gift of Grace. Anything not understood is often tied then into religion and we are still trying to fathom why some commit the horrors that seem beyond humanities capabilities.

PatH I read in your earlier post you too really struggled to read this story to analyze it because of the content - did you have any feelings for those he killed and did you see him only as a monster or what did you feel was most horrific about the story - I am curious - it is a difficult story and where my only way was to get under the story and almost take the humanity out of the characters. How did you handle it?

[PatH]

The Misfit seems like a convincing picture of a sociopathic killer, with his emotionally blunted account of his past, not even sure what he has done.  He's clear on how bad it is in prison, though.

But prophet?  With great capacity for grace?  I can't see his path to that.  The start is there; he says of Jesus "If He did what He said, then it's nothing for you to do but throw away everything and follow Him, and if He didn't, then it's nothing for you to do but enjoy the few minutes you got left the best way you can..."  A seed has been planted, but could it grow in such barren soil?