Author Topic: Those Angry Days by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online (Read 61077 times)

JoanP · « **on:** June 28, 2013, 06:27:18 PM »

The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.

August Book Club Online
PLEASE POST below if you can join us starting August 1

THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson
Roosevelt, Lindbergh, and America’s Fight Over World War II, 1939-1941

".............the definitive account of the debate over American intervention in World War II—a bitter, sometimes violent clash of personalities and ideas that divided the nation and ultimately determined the fate of the free world. - The New York Times

“In Those Angry Days, journalist-turned-historian Lynne Olson captures [the] period in a fast-moving, highly readable narrative punctuated by high drama. It’s . . . popular history at its most riveting, detailing what the author rightfully characterizes as ‘a brutal, no-holds-barred battle for the soul of the nation.’ It is sure to captivate readers seeking a deeper understanding of how public opinion gradually shifted as America moved from bystander to combatant in the war to preserve democracy.”—Associated Press

Discussion Leaders: Ella & Harold

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #1 on:** June 29, 2013, 10:28:54 PM »

WELCOME TO EVERYONE

WE HOPE YOU JOIN IN THIS FASCINATING BOOK -

SO MUCH TO DISCUSS

You may know some of the events, some of the people in the book, but there is so much more to learn and, surprisingly, we can apply it all to what is happening today.

We will converse with some of the finest minds of the 20th century, our century, so post a note Our conversation does not start until August, but we would like to know how many will be with us.

JoanP · « **Reply #2 on:** June 30, 2013, 02:33:17 PM »

Here's my funny Lynne Olson story, Ella. I checked in my local library catalog online for Those Angry Days- was surprised and stunned to find that this library right across the Potomac River from the White House - had not a single copy!

Asked around and was surprised to learn that libraries across the country were already carrying the book! This morning I checked again - still, no Angry Days! A few minutes later I noticed a discrepancy on our main SeniorLearn Index page. Olson, in one place, Olsen in another.
I checked the spelling and learned Olson is correct and then checked the Library Catalog again...and sure enough, there was Lynne Olson's new book - with nine holds on it already!

This is a roundabout way of saying, yes, Ella and Harold, I will be happy to learn more about FDR - and why these days were considered "angry."

And remember - spelling does still count - especially at the library!

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #3 on:** June 30, 2013, 04:13:54 PM »

It was a just this spring that Lynn Olson’s new book, “Those Angry Days” became the topic of a burst of discussion on our Nonfiction board. The book is a review of the history of the 27 months between September 1939 and December 1941 during which American public opinion was transformed from intense determination not to become involved in any way in the European War that had just broken out between England/France and Germany. At the War’s outbreak America seemed determined to maintain strict neutrality. There was a general feeling of intense distrust of France and particularly of England. How this extreme isolation mindset was transformed during the period and the roles of the U.S. President Roosevelt and the English Prime Minister Winston Churchill in the engineering of this policy transformation is the subject of this book. I am sure that you too will find these events not only interesting but also some of you now in your mid 80’s will recall many of the events discussed in ]the book as thy develop as news.

This book can make a great discussion and all are invited. The Book is widely available in both print and digital editions. Also it should be available in most libraries and at used book stores. In order for this discussion to begin August 1, we will need at least five or six interested people who will read the book and take an active part in the discussion. Those of you who are interested in being a part of this discussion, just make a post here to that effect. Let us see if this discussion can be had.

PatH · « **Reply #4 on:** June 30, 2013, 06:28:16 PM »

I'm definitely with you. It's a bit of history I've been meaning to read more about, and I know from Troublesome Young Men that she's very readable and makes for a good discussion.

My library has enough holds that I'll probably buy a copy so I won't have to worry about timing.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #5 on:** July 01, 2013, 07:58:44 AM »

JOANP and PAT - happy to see you will be with us. It is interesting how the public's mindset was changed from an isolationist viewpoint to an European activist one. I recently asked a similar question in our Current Events discussion - how did the American opinion change to an acceptable view of homosexuality in the last 15-20 years.. Our parents and grandparents would never have approved.

How does public opinion change so radically?

Jonathan · « **Reply #6 on:** July 01, 2013, 03:03:29 PM »

Count me in. It's a fascinating book. Olson at her very best. And very even-handed in exploring the reasons for the anger. Once I started reading I couldn't put the book down. See you in August.

What a wonderful comparison, Ella. Have we let our parents and grandparents down? Did they let us down, in 1939-41? Will the consequences be as momentous and far-reaching?

I've been reading around about Gettysburg. It is after all the 150th anniversary of the famous battle. I can't help thinking how much effort was made to keep Europe out of America's Civil War. Or look for help, depending on which side one was on. All the world was sucked into Europe's civil wars!

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #7 on:** July 01, 2013, 05:12:08 PM »

Oh, great, JONATHAN, it's been awhile since we have discussed a nonfiction book. I can't answer your questions at all, I know that on one page of this book it mentioned the first World War (in which my father fought in France) and the second World War (in which my husband fought in the Pacific). A bit much for just two generations. All on one page.

And then the next generation fought in Vietnam. Just too much war, too many young lives engaged, dying!

Are you reading a book about European countries and America's Civil War? I don't recall any of them involved in helping, is that correct?

But isn't it interesting that we all date something by wars? And what would historians write about without them?

serenesheila · « **Reply #8 on:** July 01, 2013, 06:21:37 PM »

Hi, Ella and Harold. I will take part in this discussion. This book is waiting in my Kindle. I love Lynn Olson. She draws pictures with words.

Sheila

.

bellamarie · « **Reply #9 on:** July 02, 2013, 11:33:17 AM »

I'm becoming a bit of a history buff since joining SL and think I would learn a lot from reading this book, so count me in. My life should be settling down a bit by August, with grand kids going back to school, and having less day care children in my in-home day care. Looking forward to an adult discussion.

bellaMarie~

horselover · « **Reply #10 on:** July 02, 2013, 02:03:04 PM »

I'm looking forward to what should be a great discussion!

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #11 on:** July 02, 2013, 06:53:16 PM »

Thank you PatH, Jonathan, Shelia, bellamarie, and horselover for your prompt response. Its looking good a great start August 1st.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #12 on:** July 03, 2013, 09:27:45 AM »

THANK YOU ALL FOR POSTING.

THIS IS PROMISING TO BE A VERY GOOD DISCUSSION AND HISTORY LESSON FOR ALL OF US!

Now if we could only get some high school students or university students engaged in our conversation. Did you hear David McCullough talking on 60 Minutes last Sunday about the woeful lack of history that our young people have? Several didn't know that there 13 colonies originally and that they were all on the EAST COAST! Sad isn't it? I wonder if they have ever heard of Thomas Jefferson and John Adams and who they were?

Those of you who have grandchildren ask them and let us know! Sadly, I have none.

A couple of sites to explore; one Lynn Olson speaking at Hunter College, Roosevelt Institute

http://www.roosevelthouse.hunter.cuny.edu/events/lynne-olson/

Olson spoke on C-Span but after numerous tries, I could not copy it. Try it youself if you want to hear her.

PatH · « **Reply #13 on:** July 03, 2013, 11:40:22 AM »

That lack of knowledge is pretty shocking. My oldest grandchild is 4 1/2. I'll ask him when I see him, but somehow I don't think he'll know.

Hi, horselover, it will be good to be in a discussion with you.

Bellamarie, I haven't seen you for a while. I'm glad you're back.

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #14 on:** July 03, 2013, 12:14:53 PM »

Horselover during this pre discussion period, if you are inclined you might comment on your horse activities. One of my nephews is a Dallas area Veterinarian with a specialized Horse practice. He and his wife keep and raise horses on a 50 acre Horse farm where he Practices Horse medicine. Their current horse interest seems to be cutting horses. During this last year their 13 year daughter won significant money prizes at various cutting shows.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #15 on:** July 04, 2013, 10:43:08 AM »

HELLO HAROLD!

As you, and probably most of you know, JOHN ADAMS AND THOMAS JEFFERSON died on this day in 1826, which was also (if I am not mistaken) the 50th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. We should remember these two founding fathers and ex-presidents.

Talk about divisiveness! These two men didn't speak to each other for years. They were divided over many issues - Adams wanted a strong federal government, while Jefferson believed the government should defer to states rights.

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #16 on:** July 04, 2013, 03:30:58 PM »

Regarding the John Adams, Thomas Jefferson relationship, they were on competing tickets in the presidential election in 1804. This election turned out to be the closest Presidential race in history. After a tie in the electoral college the issue went to the House of Representatives. After many Ballots the House finally chose Jefferson by a small majority a decision that denied Adams a second term. After this there were many years during which Adams and Jefferson were ignoring each other. However as I remember the history after about 1815 the two thawed, and during their last decade they conducted a regular and now historically significant correspondance. Both died at their homes in Virgina and Massachusetts on the 4th of July 1826

During the last week of June 1826 after some 6 weeks at sea on a sailing ship bound for Liverpool John James Audubon was quite drunk after an afternoon drinking Porter (A strong Beer) when he sudden had a strange vision in which he saw his beloved country, the United States, about to experience some great catastrophe. For him it was a puzzling and alarming experience. A month later after landing at Liverpool, he read in an English Newspaper about the death of the two ex-Presidents at their respective homes on July4th within hours of each other. Audubon was satisfied his experience on the Ship had been a reference to the deaths of the two ex-Presidents.

JoanP · « **Reply #17 on:** July 04, 2013, 03:47:23 PM »

Oh Harold, you remind me of the irony...both men dying on the same day. Adams last words, "Jefferson lives - thinking that Jefferson "won" - outlived him, but the truth was, Jefferson had died hours before ...Adams died not knowing that he had won the wager he had made with Jefferson!

Jonathan · « **Reply #18 on:** July 05, 2013, 01:51:17 PM »

What an unusual event, these two exceptional men dying on the same day. And strange enough to make waves in supernatural realms, strong enough to be felt by people like Audubon a thousand miles away!

My newspaper yesterday featured the event in its daily 'A Moment in Time' corner. With these words by Patrick White, under fine portrais of Adams and Jefferson?

'They love, they loathe, they reconcile, they die on the same day - the story of Jefferson and Adams has the makings of a historical buddy flick. It starts with two young men uniting in the common cause of freedom: Thomas Jefferson, a genteel libertarian, and John Adams, a conservative from farming stock. In the summer of 1776, they forge a friendship and, eventually, a country, with the drafting of the Declaration of Independence. When the Revolutionary War ends in 1783, the friendship does too. The low point comes during the presedential election of 1800. Adams accuses his opponent, Jefferson, of atheism; Jefferson claims Adams wants to be a king. They make peace a decade later, starting a 15-year correspondence that ends the day they both die - the 50th anniversary of the document that brought them together.'

That's a bit of history that captures the imagination. At any age'

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #19 on:** July 07, 2013, 08:59:59 AM »

Hi JONATHAN - It's the stuff of movies, isn't it! Has it been? There was one of John Adams, was it on HBO or PBS? I would like to see it again, I'll look it up.

Whenever we do a history discussion I am reminded of Faulkner's comment -

The past is not dead, it isn't it past.

How does one interpret that?

CallieOK · « **Reply #20 on:** July 08, 2013, 09:32:50 AM »

Marking my place. I have the book TBR and will look forward to the discussion.

My "search" story is looking for "These Angry Days" instead of "Those...".

Small gripe is wondering why almost every book I'm looking for is on the bottom shelf at the library?

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #21 on:** July 09, 2013, 09:53:03 AM »

Hi Callie, laughing at your small gripe; but I understand it!

Big griipe this morning is that I read in my newspaper that the landline phone service will not be with us much longer. AT&T expects all landlines to be gone by 2020 and is not replacing storm driven outages, etc. I have a cellphone but much prefer my landline, sounds better; perhaps I am not adjusting to change as well as I thought.

Think of the jobs that technology has replaced. (And I'm off the subject, I know)

PatH · « **Reply #22 on:** July 09, 2013, 10:11:55 AM »

Copper phone lines--that's a real hot button topic with me, Ella. Last summer that big storm (the derecho) knocked out power in my area for a whole week. Everyone with the fancy new systems quickly ran through their backup batteries, most of the cell phone services weren't working, but I could still use my good old-fashioned phone. It sort of saved my life, since temperatures were around 100 degrees, and after the first couple of days I needed to track down a friend with power and an extra bed in order to avoid cooking to death. Given the number of power outages we have here, a non-electrical phone system seems like an essential backup.

Callie, in my library the good books aren't all on the bottom shelf; some of them are on the top shelf, where short people like me can't reach them, or even read the titles.

CallieOK · « **Reply #23 on:** July 09, 2013, 05:22:29 PM »

Pat, I have that problem, too - as well as at the grocery store. I am forever going around looking for a "tall person" to get a can or box that's way at the back of the shelf.

Jonathan · « **Reply #24 on:** July 09, 2013, 05:23:30 PM »

Bottom shelves/ top shelves...these are good, honest gripes. Perhaps they're sent to try us. Perhaps I've missed a lot by staying at eye level. Not that there is any lack of good reading on those middle shelves.

Gripes may not be off-topic at all, Ella, going into a book like Those Angry Days. In fact, they may be mood-setting.

I can find a gripe in 'The past is not dead.' I was brought up being told a Recording Angel was making an entry in his ledger of everything I said and did. And I would be held accountable! I never lost much sleep over it, leaving it all to that other angel we all have keeping watch over us.

In fact, isn't the past enjoyable, when it's brought back to life by authors like Lynne Olson?

Jonathan · « **Reply #25 on:** July 09, 2013, 05:26:45 PM »

Callie, I always had a pleasure helping someone out in that situation.

Jonathan · « **Reply #26 on:** July 09, 2013, 05:33:43 PM »

Can you imagine the hot disputes among the angels who are keeping their eye on human affairs. What a history that must be, seen through their eyes!

Jonathan · « **Reply #27 on:** July 09, 2013, 05:36:13 PM »

Would there be good guys and bad guys for them.?

Jonathan · « **Reply #28 on:** July 09, 2013, 05:44:06 PM »

Would there be a gender difference between Recording Angel and Guardian Angel? This could make a difference in seeing justice done. I must see my lawyer about that. She would know.

Jonathan · « **Reply #29 on:** July 09, 2013, 05:48:55 PM »

There was great weeping in Heaven yesterday. We got five inches of tears in two hours. Here in Toronto. A tragedy up there? It was a calamity down here. We're drying out today.

kidsal · « **Reply #30 on:** July 10, 2013, 03:08:27 AM »

Yes will join you. Just finished reading In the Garden of Beasts about Ambassador Dodd the scholar sent to Germany in the late 1930s because Roosevelt couldn't find anyone else to take the job. Dr Dodd had studied in Germany and was slow to realize what was happening but Roosevelt relied on him to keep him privately informed. State Department thought he was a light-weight.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #31 on:** July 10, 2013, 10:04:10 AM »

OH, good, KISAL. Welcome, welcome!

There are many such stories about individuals in this book. Perhaps it's because I admire FDR's administration, but he seems to dominate the book. As an author, it would difficult to stray from such a personality as Roosevelet, but our author does a good job with other individuals of the period; however I must admit that most were connected in some manner to the great one.

Lincoln is the president that more books are written about -

"Some 15,000 books have been written about Lincoln — more books, says Tetreault, than have been written about any other person in world history, with the exception of Jesus Christ."

http://www.npr.org/2012/02/20/147062501/forget-lincoln-logs-a-tower-of-books-to-honor-abe

However, when speaking of our most popular, important presidents these come to mind often or do you agree? Washington, Lincoln, FDR - is that the big 3 or are there more?

http://www.npr.org/2012/02/20/147062501/forget-lincoln-logs-a-tower-of-books-to-honor-abe

JONATHAN, there is weeping on earth also - two weeks of rain, no flooding though in our area of central Ohio that I know of.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #32 on:** July 10, 2013, 10:11:06 AM »

JONATHAN, I was taught the same. But when my little girl was about 5-6 i caught her in a whopper of a lie and to impress upon her the importance of truth I told her that the lie would be a very black mark on her book in heaven. Very innocently, she said - Why didn't you tell me that before? All children try to get away with a little lie to test authority, but I have never forgotten that incident, because

I'm not sure I believed in those angels and I was just as guilty of telling a lie. What contradictions we humans must deal with.

Jonathan · « **Reply #33 on:** July 10, 2013, 05:32:44 PM »

In the Garden of Beasts sounds like a good book to read for some background to our upcoming discussion. Thanks, kidsal. I wonder what the president was hearing from his accidental ambassador. It must have helped him in his decisions regarding the German problem. Might it have turned out differently if he had sent Lindbergh to Berlin as ambassador? Or Joe Kennedy?

'Why didn't you tell me that before?' Ella, what a surprising thing to hear from a child of 5! Doesn't every culture have it's rules about eventually weighing of individual lives and the consequences? I've often wondered about suffering through a purgatory or taking my chances with reincarnation, for a second chance to get it right.

bookad · « **Reply #34 on:** July 10, 2013, 09:24:21 PM »

hello there

I too would like to join the August discussion about 'Those Angry Days', went out yesterday after I found the Barrie library near us had one copy in....and its with me now. Looking forward to this discussion.

My grandfather came to Canada from England when he was 16 or so, settling in Saskatchewan; when the first world war started he joined the Canadian army and went overseas with them.

Kidsal I too recently read 'The the Garden of the Beasts' about Ambassador Dodd and his family; hobnobbing with the nazis...interesting read.

My intention was to read Lynne Olson's book about WW! in sequence and began last year so this fits right in.

take care
Deb

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #35 on:** July 11, 2013, 07:22:10 PM »

Good to have you with us, DEB! Thanks for posting.

PatH · « **Reply #36 on:** July 11, 2013, 09:09:33 PM »

Just got my copy--haven't had time to peek at it yet.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #37 on:** July 13, 2013, 04:14:40 PM »

Well, then wait and read along with the rest of us. We will do the FIRST 7 chapters the first week.

Will be posting a schedule later.

bookad · « **Reply #38 on:** July 13, 2013, 05:21:36 PM »

hi there

have been working out my confusion...guess I thought Lynn Olson mainly wrote about the first world war and I have been reading her books about that war, trying to do so in the order of their history.

I was with the book club though when we read about how Winston Churchill came to be the Prime Minister during the second world war. I have also read quite a number of books about the second world war, mainly about how the war came to influence people's lives in various countries....was trying to map them on googlemaps as to their geography but am not talented enough....but have itemized them according to their location in the world on a map I have

some of the books I have read have been about:

*a couple who ran a polish zoo & how the animals were handled, how they hid friends & relatives
*a market gardener in Holland, his wife and life during this time
*a German man who became one of Hitler's inner circle but later tried with a small group of men to murder Hitler--what was interesting was his relating his childhood and how parents took much pride in their children dressed up like little soldiers marching to military music
*an English woman who married a German just prior to the war and spending the war in Germany
*of course Corrie ten Boon (not sure if that is the correct spelling
*2 children at school trying to make their way home in Germany
* a few men who were aided by local tribes people and hidden when their plane went down in an isolated area in Asia (forgot where)
and ended up spending 3 months living like nomadic tribesmen

*fiction books by Nevil Shute and war time in Australia

and quite a few others, mainly people relating their war experiences

my uncle was a pilot with the Canadian air-force stationed in England; his plane was shot down over the English channel I am told, but he survived and
my aunt, a nurse went over to England to be with him thru his recovery....that is my world war 2 story;

anyway enough mumbling; just some thoughts about the war and my interest in it....it will be interesting to know more about the United States President and Lindbergh
as have read an interesting book called "Intrepid" by William Stevenson.....he was very prominent in the war with undercover work there was quite an area a bit southeast of us in Ontario where he had a large area to help train people going for undercover in Europe during the war....and ...there is a picture in the Orillia Canadian Legion with him, Winston Churchill and President Roosevelt sitting side by side by side

anyway enough said
have a good day
Deb

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #39 on:** July 14, 2013, 03:46:53 PM »

Hi DEB! Wow, you do have an interest in that period - you're the perfect person for this discussion. I looked up William Stephenson on Google, quite a guy. He is mentioned in our book in several places:

"He was an extremely private man, an enigma all around........he moved like a panther, a black panther......he had that quality of blending into a crowd. You wouldn't see him....He was so swift and so silent." Gave great cocktail parties, though, where you would meet anybody." Quotes from the book.

See you in August............

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Author Topic: Those Angry Days by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online (Read 61077 times)