Author Topic: Those Angry Days by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online  (Read 61085 times)

JoanP

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #320 on: August 18, 2013, 11:49:32 AM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.
August Book Club Online

THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson
Roosevelt, Lindbergh, and America’s Fight Over World War II, 1939-1941
   




".............the definitive account of the debate over American intervention in World War II—a bitter, sometimes violent clash of personalities and ideas that divided the nation and ultimately determined the fate of the free world.   - The New York Times


“In Those Angry Days, journalist-turned-historian Lynne Olson captures [the] period in a fast-moving, highly readable narrative punctuated by high drama. It’s . . . popular history at its most riveting, detailing what the author rightfully characterizes as ‘a brutal, no-holds-barred battle for the soul of the nation.’ It is sure to captivate readers seeking a deeper understanding of how public opinion gradually shifted as America moved from bystander to combatant in the war to preserve democracy.”—Associated Press
DISCUSSION SCHEDULE
         August 1-7     Chapters 1-7
         August 8-14     Chapters 8-14
         August 15-21   Chapters 15-21
         August 22-28    Chapters 22-28

Discussion Leaders:  Ella  & Harold



BarbStAubrey

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #321 on: August 18, 2013, 11:50:47 AM »
I got thinking last night and remembering incidents - how we kids tossed off the thoughts of the day - looks on my mother's face when I said some of these things at home or when we were walking here or there. My Grandmother was firm - Roosevelt could do not wrong - my Father was a hail all energetic sharing the latest news - my Mother did not say much at this time -

I knew from how she shared the photo album that had a whole page with a large, probably store bought, photo of young Lindbergh next to the Spirit of St. Louis and how she followed and talked about the kidnapping of their baby that she had a crush on the man - probably a movie star type crush. And during these years when Lindbergh's name came up she had a pained look in her eyes but thinking on it, I do not think it was completely because of what he was saying.

I remember seeing his photo in a newspaper and a couple of times on the newsreels - I kept thinking - and this is Lindbergh??!!?? - - for me the newsreel that showed him getting off the plane returning from Germany my immediate shock was why was he on a large commercial plane, thinking he only flew his small personal plane for the rest of his life - then looked and he was older but still had a spring in his step - later, the years '39 and '40 he aged into a nondescript middle aged man, usually wearing a dark overcoat - tubby in all the wrong place without the charisma of FDR or even the others speaking pro and con at the time - Middle aged Lindbergh was a rather dull looking man who looked more like a back room accountant.

I think for some there was an underlying disappointment that their hero did not look like their knight riding in on a horse - he spoke softly with no banners waving and so they turned their disappointment into either brushing him off, or like my mother not saying anything and some sounding angry. I bet the anger was mixed with their disappointment he did not look anything like the hero they built him up to be. Those in the know may have seen other dangers but for the average voter I think their disappointment that he no longer looked like their hero was a factor.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bookad

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #322 on: August 18, 2013, 01:56:04 PM »
Ella Gibbonsas I write you am listening to Murray Klein talking about the book he wrote "A Call to Arms" lucky for me its at the library near here, and as the book is so long found a copy of it at the Lee County library system so can continue it when we travel south.  Interesting man, and ironically couldn't see himself writing this book...but 10 years later a change of mind and voila....
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

Jonathan

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #323 on: August 18, 2013, 03:37:00 PM »
Deb, can you put a reserve on the Lee County book from here and have it waiting for you?.   But it's only August. Yes, I do remember that many Canadians enlisted willingly in both wars. But I also remember that many waited until they were called up. I was growing up in a very pacifist community, which included many refugees from revolutionary Russia. That made for very ambivalent feelings for some regarding Hitler's war-making. Some wanted him victorious in the east, but defeated in the west.

But our book reveals the many conflicted feelings of everybody. How can it be otherwise when the issues are war and peace.

Yes, Harold. I was struck by the politcal conflicts described in Chapter 17. In fact, for me it reeks of dirty tricks. FDR felt it was the sorriest of all his campaigns. Imagine, knowing that he can't speak the truth! Never have I read such a good account of what it means to occupy the Oval Office, at such a desperate time. A great man trying to plot a course for a great country that still had options.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #324 on: August 18, 2013, 04:09:24 PM »
"Imagine, knowing that he can't speak the truth! Never have I read such a good account of what it means to occupy the Oval Office, at such a desperate time. A great man trying to plot a course for a great country that still had options." - Jonathan

I agree, JONATHAN, but it's so easy with hindsight.  Let us know what you think about the CALL TO ARMS book, DEB.  Is it readable?

What would you think if you were in the audience listening to Lindberg in Sept. 1941?  Here he is?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBooiuDDlv0

bookad

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #325 on: August 18, 2013, 07:37:26 PM »
this book is really playing with my mind.....I feel for Anne Lindberg...caught between her husband, and family yet loved by both it seems and supported by both as well...the book she wrote being a best seller but reviews and readers alike generally not very impressed with her writing

unbelievable the way that both men in the 1940 Presidential race felt obliged to change their story to the public about what their beliefs were as far as American support and sending men to the European war effort in aid of Britain----the British felt they had about 6 months left survival time with the surrounding German navy not to mention the continual bombing and destruction going on around them & lack of supplies reaching their shores

I don't think I've had this horrible picture of what it must have been like for the people living in Britain thru this....and everything seemed to be closing in hour by hour

Jonathan--yes I can reserve books before I leave for Florida....but I have a feeling that there won't be a lot of reserves on that book if any....I can check if there are online....what a wonderful thing the internet is...especially to do with libraries






To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #326 on: August 18, 2013, 07:58:16 PM »
this is interesting - some can say it is revisionist history however, I am remembering some of it about Germans in Poland being burned out - if only half of this is true it is probably what made Lindbergh see the war that was coming as a conflict between old European clans and nations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g0XyosEza8
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

mabel1015j

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #327 on: August 18, 2013, 08:06:45 PM »
Our PBS is showing a wonderful show about Churchill, right now 8-9. It looks like it's a series. God bless the BBC! Lol

Ella Gibbons

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #328 on: August 19, 2013, 09:10:47 AM »
Chapter 20 is somewhat hard to bellieve, I suppose, because we are not living in that era, we cannot walk in their shoes, and I have no idea which side I would be on - and I do think there are "sides" to this issue of whether we should be engaged in European affairs.

HAVE ANY OF YOU DECIDED WHICH COMMITTEE, WHICH VIEWPOINT, YOU MIGHT HAVE MADE DURING THOSE ANGRY DAYS?

bellamarie

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #329 on: August 19, 2013, 09:49:59 AM »
So in these chapters the Lindbergh's return to the scene.....Ann is so very unhappy because their friends have all turned away from them.  

pg.  247 "Her pain was compounded when she discovered that the French aviator and writer Antoine d Saint-Exupery was in New York and that because he was "on the other side," she would not be able to see him.  The year before she had become emotionally involved with Saint Exupery after he wrote a highly laudatory preface to the French edition of her book Listen! The Wind."

Ella, you ask which side or committee we would chose if we lived in that era.  

Well, I suppose we are indeed living pretty much the same today as then, just different president, different wars, and different names of the groups.  I am a conservative, but also find myself somewhat leaning on certain issues such as staying out of the wars about religion in countries that continue to fight amongst themselves endlessly, although we also have to be there for our allies because we do not want to see tyrants and terrorists take over territories and governments.  I suppose that is why I personally am comfortable being an Independent, who can sympathize with both parties/sides.

Much like the Lingberghs, I have seen in the past century, families and friendships end relationships, or turn on each other because of their political views and party allegiance.  It's an extremely hurtful thing to happen and I have experienced it within my own family.  I was shocked at the nastiness that has been displayed and so I can definitely relate to Ann's feelings of hurt and disappointment.

Gotta run for now, but be back later.

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #330 on: August 19, 2013, 11:19:51 AM »
Quote
HAS ANY OF YOU DECIDED WHICH COMMITTEE, WHICH VIEWPOINT, YOU MIGHT HAVE MADE DURING THOSE ANGRY DAYS?

Difficult question, Ella.  Hard to know whm to believe!  Like bookad I didn't have an understanding of what it must have been like for the people living in Britain at this time.  I'm going to admit that the suffering going on in Britain slipped from my radar screen, thinking there was time to decide what to do when/if the Germans turned their attention from Russia.  I see how wrong I was - the Germans somehow make the time for steady bombing raids.  When they do turn from Russia, it will be as easy to overcome the weakened British army and people - just as they did France.  They need help now!  But how do I know that for sure?  How much true information am I getting from politicians. from the press, controlled by the politicians, as we've seen?

I was amazed that you were able to find Lindbergh's 1941 speech in Des Moines! (As stunned as I was when Pat brought us Wendell Wilkie's!)  I thought it was a good speech, though his delivery seemed robotic, without passion.  I could see why Anne advised him not to include the "Jewish group" - warning him that was all the people would remember. (But I felt his speech did provide questions to think about -   I kept wondering at Lindbergh's motivation.  He didn't want a political position...why does he put himself through this?  Is it the principle involved?  Hard to fault him for standing up for what he believes.)  There seemed to be nothing for him to gain - but how do I know that?  Maybe big business controls him?  Maybe Hitler does)

Anne  was right.  They blew him out of the water - saying the only ones who were applauding his speech were Hitler, Mussolini, etc., that hey were the only ones who stood to gain if we did not enter the war.   I dug up Jay Darling's political cartoon that appeared in Des Moines the next day -  It says it all...


JoanP

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #331 on: August 19, 2013, 11:36:39 AM »
Quote
I feel for Anne Lindberg...caught between her husband, and family yet loved by both it seems and supported by both as well...bookad -

They say Charles was tone-deaf to the things he was saying when at the microphone.  But what  should he have done? He said what he believed - and did not hesitate from saying it.  Should he have edited his speech to suit his audience - as everyone else was doing?

Anne was naive enough to believe that her book, Wave for the Future, would provide a basis for people to decide the answer to Ella's question above -  recording her thoughts for both sides. It was odd, wasn't it?  Her book became a best seller, sold out, and yet was  highly criticized.  It occurs to me that the gentle book I remember reading so long ago, Anne Morrow Lindbergh's  A GIFT FROM THE SEA was also hers...published after the world.  It too, a sellout. 

BarbStAubrey

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #332 on: August 19, 2013, 11:54:38 AM »
Yes, the journalists had a field day with Lindbergh - I think they did as much to ridicule him that folks who believed we should have stayed out just dug their heels in deeper and simply became less public. From bits I am reading in several books it appears those who supported Lindbergh and where his associates urged him to make the speeches with conservative newscasters making radio time for him.

Interesting how we no longer hear how Russia was with Hitler for awhile - not sure when Stalin made the switch - and then Stalin only declared war on Japan days before they surrendered.

As to committee - not taking the question as a fantasy I would have stayed clear as we did then - we (our family) knew things were not right in Germany in 1938 and had become bad for professional Germans by 1939  - Although my great grandparents on both my mother and father's side were the ones who settled here we spoke German at home till the summer of 1939. During the war we joined in the war effort as every American however, before the war we kept a low profile. Interesting one of Churchill's advisers was Frederick Lindemann - the same name as my father's father.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #333 on: August 19, 2013, 12:55:34 PM »
aha - yes, Stalin and Hitler where on the same page - even together dividing up Poland till Hitler invades Russia in June of 1941.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_in_World_War_II#Implementing_the_division_of_Eastern_Europe_and_other_invasions
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Ella Gibbons

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #334 on: August 19, 2013, 01:38:51 PM »
Yes, BARBARA, that non-aggression pact was such a fraud wan't it?  Hitler ignored it when he invaded Russia, it was a big mistake on his part,  dividing his forces into two fronts.  But great for the allies.  

I believe - I don't know what page it is on - but it is in the book that we began to supply Russia with armaments.  I know in Maury Klein's speech he indicated that to be true.  

If I am remember correctly in listening to Klein Saturday, Edsel Ford was invited to Washington to inquire if Ford would make a diesel engine and Edsel said of course.   But when he got home, Henry said No Way, we don't make parts for foreign companies.  Wasn't Henry very anti-semitic?  One would think he would have helped the Germans, knowing what Hitler was doing to the Jews.

It wasn't Ford, but someone in the War Production Office asked a manufactuer to start making tanks and the fellow said of course we will make them and then he said - What is a tank?   So they found just one in the USA and mechanics took it apart piece by piece, labelled them and proceded back at the plant to tool them.   It took a long time!!!

Ella Gibbons

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #335 on: August 19, 2013, 01:47:42 PM »
I would have found it very difficult - impossible almost - to make a decision if I were living then.  I admired FDR for all the programs he had begun to put people to work.  Everywhere we traveled some years ago there was a WPA or CCC project; I remember the most beautiful swimming pool I ever saw was done by tshe WPA.  They did things very well, built to last.

Was Hoover Dam built in that period?  I can't remember, don't have time to look it up.

But at the same time, I would lhave leaned toward the isolationists, hating the prospect of war, but supplying allies such as Britain?   I think I would have understood.

And that is the secret, making Americans understand what their government is attempting to do.   If commentators would stay out of the news, we would all be better off - talking with each other, making our decisions alone.

In the days we are reading about the public just had the radio.

Would it be better if just HEARD THE NEWS?   Off to the dentist.............


Jonathan

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #336 on: August 19, 2013, 01:55:41 PM »
'Chapter 20 is somewhat hard to believe.' Which committee? Which viewpoint?

Hobson's choice:

'Once the U.S. accepts the fact that we are at war, we shall at last  find peace within ourselves.'

Henry Hobson, the Episcopal bishop of Cincinnati has joined the fray, the fierce debate involving the isolationists and the interventionists. And Dr. Seuss also, with his cartoon of a parade sign in New York reading, LINDBERGH FOR PRESIDENT IN 1944. That must have been a wake-up call for FDR. The opening words of the chapter are: 'The president's lethargy....'

Lindbergh's Des Moines speech is reprinted in full as a postscript in Roth's novel.

It is difficult getting the true measure of Charles Lindbergh. FDR saw him as an American Vallandigham. Others as an English Chamberlain. How about an American Gandhi?

Ella Gibbons

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #337 on: August 19, 2013, 01:57:43 PM »
My book is open to one paragraph in Chapter 20:

What the president battled....was not disloyalty but the doubts of a minority of Americans concerning the origins and purposes of the war.   Instead of tackling those misgivings head on, admittedly a difficult task of education, FDR chose to discredit and dismiss them." (Richard Steele, pg. 310)  Roosevelts' strategim-to question his critics' patriotism and accuse them of giving aid and comfort to the enemy-----would be used by a number of later presidents, including Lyndon Johnson, Ronald Reagan, and George W. Bush, when faced with opposition to their own foreign policy"[/color]

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THEIR STRATEGIES?  It must be a winning one if presidents continued to use it?

bellamarie

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #338 on: August 19, 2013, 03:02:02 PM »
I found these chapters a bit frustrating, because even though we know the outcome today, back then FDR seemed so weak and driven by the polls.  I can't imagine passing bills and then just sitting on them and doing nothing.  Imagine his administration's frustration with him.  If it weren't for Stintman, Knox and the others would anything have gotten done?  FDR may have passed bills in the New Deal to help America, but then again, Francis Perkins was the woman pushing him back then.  Interesting how FDR gets all the credit for the accomplishments, when in reality he appears to me to be a "sitting" president letting everyone else do the real work.  Our military would never have been built up, our airplanes, ships and arms would never have been produced had it not been for the foresight of those around him.

FDR is not a president I could see myself admiring, now that I know how truly inactive he was and how he had to be pushed into so many decisions.  I like to see strength and strong decision making in my president.  I think Wilkie would have not been a strong president either because he seemed to shoot himself in the foot a few times, just when he had the people/polls behind him.  These two men frustrated me.  Lindbergh at least KNEW what he felt, and was willing to stand up and take a lynching for it.  Poor indecisive Ann, thinking she could write a book taking NO stand and try to speak for both views.  Ughhh.....that was a disaster in the making.  People can criticize you for taking a side but respect you for it, but to be wishy washy, there is no respect in that.

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #339 on: August 19, 2013, 04:57:35 PM »
I see FDR using what appeared to be inactivity as time to allow the public to get behind an issue - his early days as president he simply, with little pushing required, got things done but we were in such a weakened condition as a nation that kind of leadership was a God send - Once he realized he had a Congress again that actually weakened his efforts so that there was a second "Roosevelt depression" he found he had to work with Congress and he realized because of the debacle over his attempt to change the Supreme Court he chose to act the Sphinx as he was depicted, allowing things to take their course while behind the scenes manipulating efforts, working with individuals and groups that would make a difference in the public arena.

I looked up and shared the flip flop on the part of Russia for two reasons - this is when Unions were being labeled "Red" and therefore, their support of the isolationists was being labeled akin to supporting Hitler. And then for the average person at the time to have any trust in Stalin was a problem - not just because of the communist fears but Russia was as much a part of taking Poland as Hitler with both nations carving up the territory. Russia more for its own hubris where Hitler was trying to re-connect the Germans, isolated within Poland after WWI, back to Germany. So I can see Lindbergh's analysis suggesting yet again, another conflict among the leaders of Old Europe.

After seeing the first part of the special on Churchill last night on PBS, - except that no one knew the devastation to the Jews as well as the population that did not fit Hitler's concept of a strong Aryan  race or those who were independent thinkers, I would have seen Churchill as a man who itched for war and his life was about righting the wrongs of his early life and early political life by getting others to help him win. I do not think he or FDR had an inkling till we were all deep into the war what Hitler was doing however, the more I read, too bad Hitler was so twisted since he accomplished more to turn a nation around in 5 years than any other western nation including Roosevelt.

Reading this book and the various other books about the lead world characters at this time shows me how all folks act from good intentions and after a brutal war all the propaganda to urge on the troops and the people then become cemented as the cause and downfall of the losing side. Makes me want to review history because I think we are working with a one sided view - it is too easy to dismiss aberrant behavior as deranged and complex behavior as inexplicable therefore, the author puts their spin on these distortions. From the PBS special on Churchill he was as complex with distorted patterns of behavior as any however, his views won the day.

Aghast we can ask what good intentions from Hitler and yet, like Kaiser Wilhelm II, they both admired and wanted to capture for the German people the history left by Frederick the Great of the second Reich, and Friedrich Wilhelm I who founded the Prussian army and the rigid efficient bureaucracy while pushing 'a ramrod up the back of my people' - Kaiser Wilhelm I outlined in his army regulation 'When one takes the oath to the flag one renounces oneself and surrenders entirely even one's life and everything to the monarch...Through this blind obedience one receives the grace and confirmation of the title of soldier' - (sounds familiar, the explanation we had a difficult time swallowing after WWII)  He also made Prussia economically self-sufficient in time of war - and his son, Frederick the Great, a musician whose compositions are still played, a poet and a military strategist famous for winning the Seven Years War, outnumbered and with his back against the wall.

Hitler followed in these footsteps carrying with him a portrait of Frederick the Great as a talisman. Robert Waite in his book on the Kaiser and Führer tells us how, "In April 1945, with allied armies closing in from all sides, he (Hitler) eagerly reread pages in the German translation of Carlyle's biography in search of a miraculous sign that he, like the beleaguered Friedrich of 1762, would suddenly be rescued by the death of an arch-enemy." Hitler believed the sudden death of Roosevelt was his sign.

Again, reading this months choice by Ella and Harold is allowing us to see all sides of these world leaders and I'm realizing just because they win or lose they are not perfect or, the deranged, personification of evil.  
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #340 on: August 19, 2013, 05:27:33 PM »
BarbStAubrey,   " I'm realizing just because they win or lose they are not perfect or, the deranged, personification of evil."

I agree with you on this point.  I don't judge a president on his wins and loses, because how they get to them could alter my views as to whether they rightly deserve the credit for either, although history will put it in their column regardless.  As for deranged or personification of evil, their is no doubt in my mind Hitler was just that, in my opinion.

I didn't get a chance to view the PBS special.  Thank you for all your research and sharing it with us.  It sure helps see different sides to complicated issues.

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Ella Gibbons

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #341 on: August 20, 2013, 09:01:31 AM »

FDR's leadership qualities:

" keep your ends certain but your means flexible. In the period 1939-1941, Roosevelt transformed America from a divided and hesitant middle power into a global leader. He pushed isolationism to the margins of national life. He carried the country with him – and into the war.

Making this journey required great care and subtlety.  FDR’s tactical shifts were ceaseless, yet behind them all a clear and inexorable direction can be discerned. To adapt his own metaphor, he steered his government like one of his beloved sailboats, tacking this way and that for advantage, sometimes drifting, but finally bringing her into his chosen port."

http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2013/07/04/five-lessons-on-leadership-from-fdr/


Back later - 

JoanP

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #342 on: August 20, 2013, 09:34:19 AM »
Quote
"Making this journey required great care and subtlety."

Just how "subtle" was FDR during the Presidential election that preceded our entry into the war?  You asked, what we thought of the politican strategies..."It must be a winning one if presidents continued to use it?"

Again, not an easy question, Ella!  Didn't you see that election as more between FDR and Charles Lindbergh? Between intervention and isolation?   FDR seems to be treating Wendell Wilkie as if he doesn't exist, doesn't count -  and turns his attention to Lindbergh who seems to be attracting the American public to the isolationist approach.  Does FDR really believe that Lindbergh is a "Nazi"  - a "Fascist" as his adminstration, with FDR's approval,  is labelling him?  If so, he was right to alert the public to this and to question Lindbergh's motivation in urging isolationism.  But if this is an election strategy to frighten Americans, then FDR's integrity was diminished in my opinion.

"It is difficult getting the true measure of Charles Lindbergh. FDR saw him as an American Vallandigham." Jonathan.  I'm going to have to google Vallandigham, - but I agree that Charles Lindbergh was (and remains) an enigma.

Quote
Vallandigham: Clement Laird Vallandigham  was an Ohio politician, and leader of the Copperhead faction of anti-war Democrats during the American Civil War. - delivered a speech titled "The Great American Revolution" to the House of Representatives. He accused the Republican Party of being "belligerent" and advocated "choice of peaceable disunion upon the one hand, or Union through adjustment and conciliation upon the other
The specifications of the charge against Vallandigham were:
Declaring the present war "a wicked, cruel, and unnecessary war"; "a war not being waged for the preservation of the Union"; "a war for the purpose of crushing out liberty and erecting a despotism"...

While in the Googling mode, I decided to look up the other label attributed to C. Lindbergh during this election -

Fascist: -
Philosophy of government that stresses the primacy and glory of the state, unquestioning obedience to its leader, subordination of the individual will to the state's authority, and harsh suppression of dissent. Martial virtues are celebrated, while liberal and democratic values are disparaged.
"The word fascist is sometimes used to denigrate people, institutions, or groups that would not describe themselves as ideologically fascist, and that may not fall within the formal definition of the word"


bellamarie

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #343 on: August 20, 2013, 11:33:37 AM »
JoanP. "You asked, what we thought of the politician strategies..."It must be a winning one if presidents continued to use it?"

Indeed they do continue to use it and win with it.  This past election I was appalled how a decent, caring, intelligent, experienced person like Romney was trashed by the media and the president.  If we were back in FDR's election I am sure he would have been called a Nazi/fascist.  Anything goes in elections and now I realize its gone on forever, not just since I have become politically aware in the 70's.  Clinton and Bush both had people trying to make them out to be draft dodgers.  Obama had the birthers trying to prove he was not even an American citizen.  You would like to think we are better than this and that we could respect those running our country would have a bit more decency.  It's the lay of the land and I don't ever see it changing.

JoanP,  " Does FDR really believe that Lindbergh is a "Nazi"  - a "Fascist" as his administration, with FDR's approval,  is labelling him?

I did not get the impression FDR believed it, but that didn't matter because he knew it would be something to discredit anything Lindbergh would say to the American people.  Lindbergh did indeed have an affect on the American people when he spoke, a real threat to FDR.

Do you think any of these presidents, reporters, politicians, etc., ever have regrets of their tactics/behavior after elections?  I like to think they are good people ignoring their morals and values, because the end justifies the means when it comes to winning elections.

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

HaroldArnold

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #344 on: August 20, 2013, 01:01:39 PM »
I think that in all of these these chapters from the beginning FDR has show himself above all else a politician.  I think also that he recognized the pure evil of the Nazi government in Germany and realized that without Britain the US would stand alone against an enemy in control of the whole of Europe and much of Asia. From the beginning he wanted to do what he could to keep Britain in the war.   To this end he won changes in US law to permit sale of war supplies to Britain but Cash and Carry,  also he enabled transfer of 50 WWI destroyers and began a significant US rearmament program and a military conscription law.  But by the middle of 1941 Britain was broke.

Our book details how the British Ambassador, Lord Lothian  engineered the passage of new legislation called the Lend-Lease act through the US Congress over the bitter opposition of the Isolationist.  Lothian first had to get Churchill to write a letter to FDR detailing how broke Britain really was.  FDR gingerly presented a plan  called lend-Lease under which Britain would be loaned or leased war maters.  The Isolationists screamed, "No Way."  Lothian turned on a campaign that included his speaking to American Interventionist groups explaining how necessary the act was for England to remain in the war. Little by little progress was made  mainly by the inclusion of provision including provision inserted by Isolationists including one that it would not become effective until 2 months after the act was signed.  Thus it did become law  early in 1942 but its use was delayed he 2 months.  It was the Backbone of the flow of US war equipment went to Britain during the rest of the war.  After this law became effective in the summer of 1940 It became a significant source of modern arms, munitions and and other War essentials.  It assured the presence of a strong and effective trained allied army through the remainder of the War.



  










HaroldArnold

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #345 on: August 20, 2013, 05:43:56 PM »
When I returned from lunch as I passed my open message slot, I saw someone, as yet unidentified, had placed 7 pages torn from Newsweek magazines.  Each page was from a different Newsweek dated between Feb 27, 1939 and March 4, 1940.  Each of these pages were centered on the National political news breaking that week.  Most of these pages related to the latest news on the coming, but yet distant 1940, Presidential election.  The second earliest page dated Dec 11, 1939 has a political cartoon featuring possible interested candidates as Vandenberg, McNut, Garner, Taft, and Dewey.  McNut (I think) and Garner were Democrats, the rest republicans.  There is no mention of Wendel Willkie in ane of these Magazines.  FDR is mentioned in a cartoon in a later page as a magician sawing “lady Democratic Party" in two.  The caption reads, “No fooling Boss! You did saw her in two!”

Of course all of these pages were published before the German blitzkrieg swept across France and the Low Countries to leave England alone so I guess it’s not surprising to find no mention of the war at those early dates.  I suspect that by Election day in Nov 1940 it was getting quite a bit of notice.
  
An aside article in the Dec 18, 1939 issue also caught my attention.  It was about the conclusion  of a criminal trial in a Texas court of our former Mayor and 20th district Congressman.  This was Maury Maverick who had been charged of the crime of paying the Poll tax of several voters.  Maury was the grandson of the first Maury Maverick who had fought in the Texas Revolution, and as a 19th Century Texas Rancher had put the word,”Maverick”  in the English  dictionary.  Do look it up!.

Jonathan

  • Posts: 1697
Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #346 on: August 20, 2013, 05:44:56 PM »
It's all very interesting. It's an extraordinary book. The politics of it all boggle the mind. I'm convinced Machiavelli would have read it with great interest. 

  Bellamarie finds disturbing evidence  that for the characters in the book, including the president 'the end justifies the means when it comes to winning elections.'

Harold observes that 'from the beginning FDR shows himself above all else a politician.'

On the other hand, Barbara makes a case for the statesman Hitler, without condoning his evil actions.  I've just come home with a copy of Ian Kershaw's HITLER 1936 - 1945. I've been meaning to read it for years.

And also I couldn't resist buying Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, beautifully illustrated. I was born too soon to enjoy it as a child. I'll look at it now and then pass it along to my 5-year-old neighbor, a very friendly little guy.
The author, of  course, is Roald Dahl, mentioned in our book as one of those British agents in New York doing intelligence work.

Thanks, Ella, for the link to 'Five lessons on leadership from FDR. Very interesting. Especially for the choice of men that FDR used to implement his policies: Welles, Donovan, Hopkins, Willkie, and Harriman.

Willkie is certainly the odd man in the list. He worked so closely with FDR after the election. Harry Hopkins was in WW's campaign manager's NY apartment soon after the polls closed and spent the night in discussion. One has to wonder if WW and FDR were close before the election. There  are a lot of suspicious aspects about the Republican nomination convention. Perhaps it was the ultimate political machination of all from the old pro FDR.

JoanP, FDR looked back to Lincoln and his experience with a house divided.  There he came across the problem Lincoln had with Vallandigham, the Charles Lindbergh of that era.


Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #347 on: August 21, 2013, 08:55:49 AM »
The politics of it all boggle the mind- Jonathan

And I am lost in it.  I must try to get a grip on these chapters before we forge into the last ones of the book. 

I have a question that some of you can answer:

Why did Lindbergh make these speeches?   

He knew certainly that he was a poor speaker, his wife and MIL were not in favor of them, I don't understand why he subjected himself to this criticism.  He should have just flown around the country where all would have applauded a hero and basked in their adulation.

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #348 on: August 21, 2013, 09:01:51 AM »
Democracy, Lindbergh told an America First rally - "doesn't exist today, even in our own country." 

This coming from someone who admired the Germans, their efficiency, their goverment.

Further, he says we have in this country - "government by suberfuge ."

HE charged that FDR had denied Americans "freedom of information - the right of a free people to know where they are being led by their government." (pg.316)

Is this a TRAITOROUS POINT OF VIEW?  (think Snowden)

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #349 on: August 21, 2013, 09:12:53 AM »
Theodor Geisel (Dr. Seuss, whom my children loved) - his political cartoons:

http://theodorgeisel.weebly.com/political-cartoons.html

JoanP

  • BooksDL
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  • Arlington, VA
Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #350 on: August 21, 2013, 09:16:41 AM »
Harold, I'm interested in learning the identity of the party who put those articles in your message box...someone who is quite aware of the period we are discussing here...someone who felt it was worth tearing pages from those quite valuable magazines, I would imagine!

Just finished chapter 21- the espionage described here!  Was the American public aware of it, did our parents feel concerned about their privacy?  Or was it confined to Members of Congress, embassies...big cities, like Manhattan.  Why, the FBI is even spying on the organization that will become the CIA!  ( do you suppose this is going on today?) Hoover believes the OSS is in violation of existing espionage acts.  
Can't help thinking about the far more sophisticated spying methods going on today...the invasion of privacy of not only government officials, political campaigns, but private industry and millions of Americans - like us.  Think NSA investigations!  Will our grandchildren ask how we felt about this invasion of our privacy?  How do you feel?
 
With the relentless spying, I thought it interesting to read that the FBI never found any clear-cut evidence linking America First with Germany.

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #351 on: August 21, 2013, 09:39:48 AM »
Was posting responses to some posts I read last night before turning in (" turning in" - an interesting expression, isn't it - what does it mean?) - Not ignoring your questions, Ella.  They are important ones. Will be back this afternoon.

Jonathan - such a sweet gesture, passing the Chocolate Factory book on to the little guy...he'll love it - it is timeless.

I did a quick search, looking for a specific connection between master spy, Roald Dahl, and his delightful children's story...found this:

"The story was originally inspired by Roald Dahl's experience of chocolate companies during his schooldays. Cadbury would often send test packages to the schoolchildren in exchange for their opinions on the new products. At that time (around the 1920s), Cadbury and Rowntree's were England's two largest chocolate makers and they each often tried to steal trade secrets by sending spies, posing as employees, into the other's factory. Because of this, both companies became highly protective of their chocolate making processes. It was a combination of this secrecy and the elaborate, often gigantic, machines in the factory that inspired Dahl to write the story.

Back later, Ella!

HaroldArnold

  • Posts: 715
Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #352 on: August 21, 2013, 01:25:57 PM »
> Harold, I'm interested in learning the identity of the party who put those articles in your message box...someone who is quite aware of the period we are discussing here...someone who felt it was worth tearing pages from those quite valuable magazines, I would imagine!

The old Newsweek pages as I suspected came from another resident here at Chandler who is a 47 year tenured history Professor at San Antonio College.  It seems he was culling out old Magazines.  Don"t be too shocked,  I did the same thing with my old Life magazines in 2006 when I sold my house.  Magazines of this type are well archived at libraries across the country and they have no value and at used book stores.  I had previously discussed with him this discussion and he thought correctly that I might find discussion  material in them.  And they certainly did, as I noted yesterday the articles pictured an American mindset completely innocent of any idea of war or the possibility of War.  None of the possible candidates , Democrat or Republican, made it to either tickets that finely evolved.'       


Regarding the privacy issue;  in the 1940's right to privacy was assumed a common law right (a man's home is his castle where even the King cannot enter).   There is no reference to it in the US constitution.  Also in the 1940 Governments did not have the means to probe into individual activities as they do today.  Historically the Courts have shied away from cases involving involving privacy, Though the 1973 Roe V Wade abortion decision was based in part on a right to privacy, and I understand a few later cases have strengthen privacy rights, and that the new term that begins in October may provide the court with the opportunity to rule further on the issue.

Jonathan

  • Posts: 1697
Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #353 on: August 21, 2013, 02:53:32 PM »
< why did Lindbergh make those speeches >

Good question, Ella. There were many others, associated with Americal First, who were making speeches. But Lindbergh was the one to be vilified by those who thought he was too influential in advocacy of isolation. Without evidence to the contrary, I will go on thinking of him as concerned citizen wanting to keep his country out of war.

I'm convinced Lindbergh was very well informed. He had friends in he military, connections in the business world, and sources in the diplomatic corps. He seems to have read the public mood as well as the president.

HaroldArnold

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #354 on: August 21, 2013, 07:48:55 PM »
The real problem with Lindbergh's speech particularly the one in Oct 1941 to the America first group  was that it was obviously anti-semantic.  He had previewed it with his wife who advised to rewrite it without the obviously jewish slurs.  This was his last speach until after the War was over.


HaroldArnold

  • Posts: 715
Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #355 on: August 21, 2013, 07:52:33 PM »
Today represents the completion of our 3rd week’s discussion.  Tomorrow we will move on the fourth and last discussion week.  The subject will include the concluding last 7 chapters.  I found this material the most interesting part of the book including a number of surprises relative to negotiations during the remaining days of peace, the surprising way in which our official War began,  Army training, command structure, and the management of the war.  In addition Chapter 28 is a final conclusion centering on of the wartime and after careers of some of the principals including Lindbergh and Hap Arnold.. 

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #356 on: August 21, 2013, 08:19:27 PM »
Remembering:

Fiorella La Guardia, mayor of New York City during this period, a colorful personality, a man who got things done

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiorello_La_Guardia

Edward L. Murrow, how can we forget this radio personality, very brave reporter stationed in England during the blitzkreig:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/episodes/edward-r-murrow/this-reporter/513/



bookad

  • Posts: 284
Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #357 on: August 21, 2013, 09:26:24 PM »
hi there

I am just finishing up chapter 21....when I was reading chapter 19 though I was thoroughly mesmerized and was locked into the reading as if not knowing what the ending was going to be like and waiting with baited breath for what was going to happen next (as if it was a fiction work)....couldn't believe how  I was getting caught up in the fight going on between the two groups pro-war and stay-away from war

seems people get caught up in their own little lives and forget the bigger picture like what if Hitler had managed to subdue Britain like he was very close to doing....scary

so many people at this time period seem to have diaries ready to be explored later by histories descendants (us at this point in time)....do we have as many people with diaries today for tomorrows people to delve into so they may have explanations of what we are up to today!!!!!
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #358 on: August 22, 2013, 12:22:51 AM »
I think Lindbergh gave the speech because he truly does not want to see the U.S. enter the war.  He was the one member of the group, America First. who the people would listen to.  Sometimes when you have a conviction, you need to stand up and be heard, even if it is not always popular or received positively.

Okay, been trying to finish up the last chapters.  Lo and behold Hollywood has entered the building.  Or was that Elvis has left the building.  Oh well....what ever, why does it not surprise me how much influence the producers and actor/actresses would attempt to have on whether we should enter the war through movie making.  What a novel idea.....NOT!

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #359 on: August 22, 2013, 07:55:49 AM »
BOOKAD - Deb - I  wondered too at the men in the book keeping diaries.  I never knew a man who kept a diary, women, yes.   However, these men, perhaps, realized the seriousness of events and wanted to write them down.  

I hope men and women in politics or industry today  are keeping diaries or journals so that future generations can understand motives for actions.  Historians of the future need something; we don't write letters anymore, so diaries or journals will be very important.

You're right, BELLEMARIE, Lindbergh did have a good reason for his speeches.  I must delve into the last chapters of the book today.