Those Angry Days by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online

[Jonathan]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

August Book Club Online
PLEASE POST below if you can join us starting August 1  

THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson
Roosevelt, Lindbergh, and America’s Fight Over World War II, 1939-1941  

".............the definitive account of the debate over American intervention in World War II—a bitter, sometimes violent clash of personalities and ideas that divided the nation and ultimately determined the fate of the free world.   - The New York Times “In Those Angry Days, journalist-turned-historian Lynne Olson captures [the] period in a fast-moving, highly readable narrative punctuated by high drama. It’s . . . popular history at its most riveting, detailing what the author rightfully characterizes as ‘a brutal, no-holds-barred battle for the soul of the nation.’ It is sure to captivate readers seeking a deeper understanding of how public opinion gradually shifted as America moved from bystander to combatant in the war to preserve democracy.”—Associated Press

DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:
August 1-7	Chapters 1-7
August 8-14	Chapters 8-14
August 15-21	Chapters 15-21
August 22-28	Chapters 22-28

Discussion Leaders:   Ella  & Harold

'It will be interesting to know more about the United States President and Lindbergh.'

You won't be disappointed, Deb. I find the book giving me a whole new perspective on the events leading up the U.S. entry into the war in 1941. Add one more to your impressive reading list. You're right about the training camp set up here Ontario, to help Intrepid with the vast intelligence operation he set up in the U.S.

I've just started reading a most interesting takeoff on those events. Philip Roth's The Plot Against America. Roth imagines Lindbergh as the Republican choice in the presidential race in 1940. With Lindbergh winning by a landslide, and promptly making deals with the Germans and the Japanese. Unbelievable.

[bookad]

Jonathan:  wow, another book to read and giving fresh perspective of what might have been, good thing that book is fiction....scary some of the 'what could have been the outcome situations', , but looks like an interesting read....just checked and the Orillia L. has a copy in house...you know the German man who was one of Hilter's elite till he changed his thoughts (among the books I listed a couple of replies ago) of what was right and what was wrong, had me sympathizing with him....upbringings and one's schooling play so much influence over mindset....gives a lot of food for thought
Deb

[HaroldArnold]

Hello everyone of the many who have posted here in the past almost two weeks that I have been away.  Welcome to all of you who posted during the period that you will participate in the discussion.  We now seem assured of having an active group of participants.   It will be a fun event.

[JoanK]

What a great group of people here for the discussion -- I wouldn't miss it!

Had to laugh at the books on the top shelf. I always go to the bookstore with my son (6 feet 5 inches) and he gets books for me, and a lot of other people.

[Ella Gibbons]

HELLO JOANK - so happy to have you with us!   We are going to have a grand time talking about the book - really, FDR and Lindbergh together in one book, of course we are.

We all need sons as tall as you have, I've have shrunk I know.  It seems to come with age, why?   Is it gravity forcing us down or our bones just getting weaker, what is it?

[PatH]

I've shrunk too.  I think it's mostly the padding between the vertebrae squishing thinner.

[Ella Gibbons]

Oh, our padding is gone - well, from one place between our back bones  into the middle where there are no bones. 

[JoanK]

Never knew I had THAT much padding back there.

[Jonathan]

And JoanK makes twelve. With the tip-off on where to look for the humor.

I'm almost old enough to remember the Lindbergh kidnapping. Sometimes I think I do. So, I was very pleased the other day to find that I am still growing.  I can no longer touch my toes. I've always done that very easily. I suppose I should get some verification, so I'm off to the library to check my visual comfort level in the stacks.

Perhaps it will be harder to put my foot in my mouth. I need help with that one.

[JoanK]

JONATHAN: "Perhaps it will be harder to put my foot in my mouth."

unfortunately not, as I can tell you from personal experience.  

[HaroldArnold]

JoanK, Glad to have you with us.

Also, last night I watched a television movie relating  to our pending discussion.   This was a post war English movie entitled, "The Battle Of Britain."  I recall seeing it many years ago.  It is the story of the German air blitz against England in the late summer and fall of 1940 and the determined defense the the RAF.   The version I saw yesterday was interesting, but it seemed to me that some of the detail  in my memory had been cut.

[Jonathan]

Harold, I went looking for 'The Battle of Britain', and ended up watching another documentary film 'Finest Hour'. It was absolutely engrossing, with stunning battle footage, heartbreaking personal accounts, and historical commentary, and many allusions to the need for help to save Britain from the Nazi onslaught. Which of course leads directly into the subject of our book. In fact, the film includes a clip of Lindbergh addressing a crowd at Madison Square Gardens, arguing against America getting into the war.

What an amazing man, that Winston Churchill, taking over, with his country in such dire straits. And with his defiance giving his countrymen the strength to carry on. Looking back after many years, one of the secretaries at 10 Downing St, says, in the film, 'It was impossible to feel fear in Churchill's presence.' With bombs falling all around them. Of course, Churchill knew what needed to be done. Few options.

President Roosevelt on the other hand was confronted by too many, inflicted on him by the democratic process.

[HaroldArnold]

Jonathan, thank you for your comment  particularly on "Finest Hour."  I'll check to see if I can find it. Our discussion will begin next Week on Thursday. 

[Ella Gibbons]

Perhaps, this is what Jonathan was referring to?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1B3JGEjzFo

That is Part l, I'm not sure where Part II is.

One thing I have never understood is why Hitler did not invade England when he had just defeated France and had all those troops and weapons on the other shore of the English Channel.  I know that just about that same time he foolishly opened the front into Russia (or am I correct in that?) and then, of course, the Engllish Channel is not, was not, very easily negotiated.

II am so looking forward to our discussion.  Those angry days, all those arguments for/against, all those great historical figures.  Two, of course, will stand forever in history, Churchill and Roosevelt.  Lindbergh, of course, but not in the same context, do you agree?

[HaroldArnold]

Yes Ella, the link you posted appears to be the one Jonathan  is referring to.  In any case it is a really an interesting 1 Hour, 50  minute video account of the German invasion or Belgium, Holland, and France beginning May 10, and ending in mid June with the French surrender and the barely successful British evacuation of over 300,000 of their Army from Dunkirk.  Also Churchill had replaced Chamberlain determined to carry on the war.   Interestingly it also brings in the conflicting attitudes of the United States toward the War during this period.

Click the following URL for Part II,
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W1B3JGEjzFo&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DW1B3JGEjzFo  

This Part II, also about 1 hour 40 minutes picks up the History where Part I ended particularly with the German Air blitz on on England beginning in mid August 1940.   Hitler intended this to either force England to surrender like France or to destroy the RAF  making a sea invasion possible.  During this period Hitler made a peace proposal on considerably better terms than those offered France.  Still Churchill refused  and by the end of 1940 the German air operations over Britain were reduced,  though the RAF while wounded was yet not destroyed  as Germany prepared for other operations to its east in the Baltic states and Russia.  Again we hear details of the U.S. reaction at the news of the apparent overwhelm military strength of the Germans .

I hope all of you will have the chance to watch both  of these film documentaries before our discussion begins next Thursday.  It sure enhances ones understanding of the rather detailed story presented in the book.

Incidentally,  I showed these films to several of the residents here an Chandler,  These people were generally some 10 years younger than my 87 years and they were much impressed with the depth of the involvement of civilian populations particularly in England situated as they were on the front lines or the War.
 
  

[JoanK]

The English are very proud of the participation of the home forces during those dark days.

[Ella Gibbons]

I watched a bit of the films, Harold.  I'm not good at sitting in front of computer screen for that long a time (I probably should get a Kindle or Nook, shouldn't I). 

Okay, now we need a show of hands - or in lieu of that, hahaha, how about a post if you were an adult or teenager from about 1939 to the end of the war?

I'll be first.  I was born in 1928 and a teenager during those wartime years.  I was writing to two soldiers, but if I had been older I would have had a map on the wall and would have been following the progress of the war more closely.  I married a WWII veteran but didn't meet him until 1948. 

How about a post now about your own age at this time?

[CallieOK]

I was born in December, 1935 - an only child - and no immediate family members were in the military.   I have vague memories of a few "home-front" events but nothing that interrupted my life. 

[JoanP]

Funny you should ask, Ella.  I was just thinking while reading these pages, how sorry I was not ever once to have a conversation with my father about the war years.  I was born in 1938...no memories at all except the day my grandmother was hanging out the clothes in the backyard and a neighbor lady called to her that FDR had died.  The only time I ever remember that grandmother crying.
Will really depend on you and others to share memories...and of course we do have the Olson book we are reading.

I don't even remember how my parents felt about the war - sending arms and aid to Britain.  They never talked to me about it.  That was a good question - glad you asked it.  Can't wait to hear others respond.

[JoanK]

I was born in 1933, so was eight when Pearl Harbor was bombed. I remember it vividly: sitting on the floor, watching the green radio dial while Roosevelt announced it, and asking my parents "What is war"? I didn't understand what was going on, but I could see my parents were scared, so I was too.

[bookad]

I guess I was about minus ten, I had an uncle in the war who was shot down over the English channel, he was a pilot, he survived to become a lieutenant-colonel in the Canadian armed forces.  My mother was probably about 20 having finished her bachelor degree in Saskatchewan  and was in Montreal doing something with checking guns (quality control) and my father worked in Calgary as he was colour blind and wasn't eligible to be in the armed forces as he wanted to be.  My parents met on a train heading west he heading to Calgary from his home in Toronto, she from her position in Montreal to her parent's home in Saskatchewan.

And me I wasn't even a blimp on the radar.
Deb

[PatH]

Obviously I was born in 1933 too.  While JoanK was listening with our parents, I was upstairs in bed with a bad cold, listening on a radio.  I remember hoping Congress would vote not to go to war, not realizing how unlikely that was.

I have almost no historical memories of the time covered by the book, but plenty of later wartime memories.  We did have maps on the wall, and marked the fighting with colored pins.  My father didn't fight (too old plus 4F) but I had cousins who did.  Luckily, none of them got killed.  And I, too, married a veteran.

[bellamarie]

I guess I am a babe in the woods here, I was born in 1952.  As far as interest in history, war, politics or even who was president I must say I didn't enter the scene until JFK was running for president.  I did not know much at all until the day he was shot.  I remember the news showing how devastated people were, then when Bobby Kennedy was shot I really started paying attention.  I didn't really follow the Viet Nam war, and to be honest I didn't understand much about the aspects of war and how it effects the world until Bush's presidency.  I watched Colin Powell on t.v. showing where WMDs were supposedly hidden and trying to support the reason why we needed to go into Iraq.  Since then you can call me a political junkie.  lol  I have learned more from joining Senior Learn's discussion on history than I ever did in my High School years.  But....NOTHING seems to stick in my brain or memory.  Why is that?

I just got my book from the library and will begin reading tomorrow.  Looking forward to learning more about this war.

Ciao for now~

[Jonathan]

Hasn't it been extraordinary, what we have all lived through? I came in with the crash of '29, and it's just been one thing after another ever since. Exciting times. And that was the reflection of one elderly narrator in the film Finest Hour. For a twelve-year-old the dogfight in the air above his head in the British skies was an exciting thing. In Canada, at the same age, my chums and I played our wargames with our model Spitfires and Hurricanes. And we too licked the Luftwaffe and got Hitler to try his luck in the East. Before the war was over I had a summer job at the Yale Lock Company which had switched to making hand grenade casings. I snitched one as a souvenir. It just occurred to me after all these years. Did I save some soldier's life by keeping the grenade as a souvenir? As the war dragged on I remember the mixed feelings of soon finding myelf in uniform and going into battle. And then, almost suddenly it seemed, it was over, and the excitements of peace outdid any we had felt during the war.

[JoanK]

We memorized the shapes of planes, so if a plane flew over we could tell whether it was a US or German plane. Of course in the US, German planes never did fly over. I found out later, though, that some good did come of that. One plane spotter decided that if you could recognize a plane by its shape, you could do the same with birds. He published a book about it, and the sport of birdwatching was born. His name was Roger Tory Peterson.

[bookad]

hi
just wanted to say watching the film you mentioned Jonathan, was the most visual experience about the war that I've seen;....especially seeing the men marching and people's thoughts being presented....then watching the narrator walk the paths today (I imagine)...realizing from having read the book about the Chamberlain/Churchill change in Prime Minister, and how unprepared the British were before Churchill came to power.....am interested in some of the other films listed alongside this, on other aspects of the war.

thank you for mentioning this.....one of the most memorable sights I watched on another program was the funeral boat with Churchill's body travelling down the Thames R. and along both sides of the river many tall industrial cranes all standing at attention....and as the boat passed by they all lowered one by one; I feel goosebumps just in the memory of having watched this.....

[Ella Gibbons]

TOMORROW IS THE DAY!

Thank all of you for posting!  We have such an array of participants; a variety in age and personal memories. 

But we are all interested in American history - the period that produced, according to Tom Brokaw, the greatest generation. 

Okay, here's a few thoughts we might begin with tomorrow: 

[Ella Gibbons]

In the Introduction there is a short summary of the pro-con argument of America going to war in 1940.  What side would you have been on?  (We will debate international responsibilities later in the book).

Both FDR and Lindbergh were strong-willed, stubborn men who believed deeply in their own superiority and had a sense of being endowed with a special purpose.   They were determined to do things their own way, were slow to acknowledge mistakes, and did not take well to criticism.”

Are you dismayed by this description of the two giants in America’s history?  Does this description remind you of anyone you know?  Would it describe many politicians?  Is it important that our heroes have these same personalities in order to succeed?  Does it help?

[Jonathan]

Another movie I enjoy, I can't remember how many times, is PATTON, with George C. Scott. With its rousing start, as the general addresses the troops:

"Men, this stuff that some sources sling around about America wanting out of this war, not wanting to fight, is a crock of bullshit. Americans love to fight, traditionally. All real Americans love the sting and clash of battle."

General Patton, obviously, never read this book.

[bellamarie]

One day til D - Day.....  Ella, it is interesting to see you ask these questions:   Does this description remind you of anyone you know?  Would it describe many politicians?  Is it important that our heroes have these same personalities in order to succeed?  Does it help?

As I was reading the first chapter I was amazed at how striking the similarities are to today's media, president, and attitude of the people.  I have a Facebook page, and had posted earlier at how I was beginning this book with my on-line book club and how history seems to be repeating itself with this book and today.  And....yes throughout all of the years before, after and in between I suspect.  Not to get too political or biblical,  I did analogize it to the time Moses went to receive the Commandments, and while gone the people ran a muck, no morals no faith, no leadership.  I feel today that is how I see our country....running a muck.  We seem to have no heroes stepping up, no honesty, integrity or leadership.  Egos are clashing every where, polarization between the parties, people, inside the parties, the White House, congress, countries, races, religions, media, unions, etc., etc.  

I can't wait to read more of this book and begin the discussion. 

Ciao for now~

[Jonathan]

I can remember reading somewhere that Churchill was very pleased to be perceived as a modern Moses, and rightly so, but I can't believe that Roosevelt's ego was as large as that. And, of course, his people weren't in the wilderness.

[Jonathan]

I've found the reference. It's in the Bruce Feiler book we discussed some time ago. It tells about Cecil B. DeMille travelling to England after the making of his THE TEN COMMANDMENTS. Quote:

"He visited  Churchill in 1957. Churchill was his hero. He called him 'the greatest man of the twentieth century.' Churchill received hin in bed, and De Mille told him the story of Moses as if Churchill was Moses - Churchill led his people to freedom, Churchill fought back the Nazis. And the old man burst into tears." Page 239, in AMERICA'S PROPHET.

[Ella Gibbons]

MOSES!!  Well, I wouldn't go that far.

HELLO JONATHAN and BELLAMARIE.

Both of you off on your own little journey back in time - way back in time.  Great to see you both here.

Churchill and FDR stepped up to the plate when their countries needed them - weren't we fortunate to have had them!

Which one of those two would you rather sit at the dinner table with?

Tomorrow we'll begin our discussion - hope to see many of you here.

[kidsal]

Book hasn't arrived as yet -- so hope to catch up.  I was born in 1932.  Remember listening to the radio the day of the Pearl Harbor bombing -- problem is I wasn't living in that house at the time.  Don't know why I have this memory.   Our way of live was so changed by this war.

[Ella Gibbons]

“A loner all his life.”“In school, he had virtually no friends, took part in no sports or extracurricular activities, was silent in class, and did not date.  After his flight to Paris, his high school classmates…..had few if any memories of him.”

Knowing nothing of this boy turned adult, what would you imagine his future to be?

KIDSAL -  While waiting for your book, you can post as the questions are fairly easy aren't they?  You don't need a book to discuss Lindbergh.  When did you become aware of him? 

[Ella Gibbons]

If you have the time you might want to watch/listen to this video:

http://www.biography.com/people/charles-lindbergh-9382609

[Jonathan]

Good Morning to you all. It's our D-Day as Bellamarie has suggested. I like that. And the author informs us that a terrific battle will be fought in her book.

Ella sees a dinner table and distinguished guests. How about the Round Table? The makings are there. Already in Chapter 1 we meet 'a modern Galahad' in Charles Lindbergh. And, of course, FDR will be our King Arthur. The 'Quest'? Peace or War? Quest suggests noble purpose, dream, or such, doesn't it? One thing is certain. Both men wanted the best for their country.

What does 'D' stand for? Democracy? That's what this book is all about. The winner in the end, in its fight with the ideologies of the twentieth century. What a fight before the fight!

[JoanP]

We're off to a "flying"start -so many thought-provoking questions raised!  Hopefully we will come up with some answers as we read and discuss these issues together.

In the Introduction there is a short summary of the pro-con argument of America going to war in 1940.  What side would you have been on?

 A good question, Ella!  As a mother of four sons, I'm sure their safety would have been my first concern.  I would have been an isolationist, at least until France fell to the Nazis.
As I read these pages, I have so much regret that I never had a conversation with my father, or my grandparents after the war when I was old enough - about where they stood.

The two things that struck me from the outset - the absolute power of the press to form public opinion (why did that surprise me ) - and then the de-myth-ifying ( is there such a word?) of those two giants...FDR and Charles Lindbergh.

Did anyone see the PBS production last night - the recent findings on who killed the Lindbergh baby?  Hauptmann, yes, but others implicated - some eye-openers  that make you reconsider Charles Lindbergh as the Modern Galahad, Jonathan.  PBS:NOVA Who Killed the Lindbergh Baby

[HaroldArnold]

I Know that in 1934 through 1941period  most all of the  adults around the 13 year old me were isolationists.  I know of no one who was ready for war even as France fell and the Battle of Britain began.  I think the  first signs of change began to show was in the summer of 1941when England yet survived and Hitler centered his war in Eastern Europe by invading Russia.  Also by this time England had shown some offensive ability by freeing Ethiopia, and showing some offensive strength with the first of several desert offenses  from Egypt West  through Italian Libya.  This caused Hitler to pull German army units from Europe to French North Africa to stop the British advance. Also the absolute evils of Hitler and Naziism was becoming clear.  After that it was only a matter of time as we progress through the book.

[bellamarie]

Well, let the discussion begin.....and indeed it has.  Jonathon: 

"He visited  Churchill in 1957. Churchill was his hero. He called him 'the greatest man of the twentieth century.' Churchill received hin in bed, and De Mille told him the story of Moses as if Churchill was Moses - Churchill led his people to freedom, Churchill fought back the Nazis. And the old man burst into tears." Page 239, in AMERICA'S PROPHET.

Oh how excited I was to see your post.  I knew instantly when you asked about a reference what you were thinking, I loved reading America's Prophet.  Not sure if I would see FDR as a Moses, but Churchill, maybe.   

I am a bit saddened with the first chapter on Lindberg, how the media could be in part responsible for the baby's kidnapping and death.  I never realized the media has been such a nuisance,  I will go one step further, in seeing them as criminal in their actions, for so many centuries. Didn't the media play a part also in Princess Diana's death?  I know when great things happen it is necessary to publish it for all the world to see, but at some point a person should be allowed some privacy, and their children/wives and families should be off limits.  I just finished reading the book, The Day John Died by Lynn Olson, it takes you from the time JFK Jr. is born, and goes throughout John Jr.'s life.  Up til, and the day he died in that fatal plane crash, he was hounded by the media.  The media has stretched beyond the rights of "the freedom of the press."  I have only been interested in politics for the past 20 yrs., so reading this media frenzy was as bad back then as it is now, I am disappointed there have not been laws passed to prevent the harassment, and dangerous actions of the press.

Ella, I'm not really sure where I would have stood back then, if I had been alive and old enough to be aware of war and politics.  I know being a strong patriot, I would have wanted our country to help our allies, but deciding how to aide them, and at what point sending troops, I would have to know a lot more, before deciding my feelings.

Ciao for now~