Those Angry Days by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online

[BarbStAubrey]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

August Book Club Online

THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson
Roosevelt, Lindbergh, and America’s Fight Over World War II, 1939-1941  

".............the definitive account of the debate over American intervention in World War II—a bitter, sometimes violent clash of personalities and ideas that divided the nation and ultimately determined the fate of the free world.   - The New York Times “In Those Angry Days, journalist-turned-historian Lynne Olson captures [the] period in a fast-moving, highly readable narrative punctuated by high drama. It’s . . . popular history at its most riveting, detailing what the author rightfully characterizes as ‘a brutal, no-holds-barred battle for the soul of the nation.’ It is sure to captivate readers seeking a deeper understanding of how public opinion gradually shifted as America moved from bystander to combatant in the war to preserve democracy.”—Associated Press

DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:
August 1-7	Chapters 1-7
August 8-14	Chapters 8-14
August 15-21	Chapters 15-21
August 22-28	Chapters 22-28

Discussion Leaders:   Ella  & Harold

[BarbStAubrey]

I do not hear these stories now but when I was a kid in a German household we heard these stories as the example of who we are as a people - and so where the world my look at Napoleon as the example of why you do not invade Russia by land I bet Hitler was coming from his ancient Teutonic roots that he put on display during those large theatrical gatherings that were a performance to bring German pride to the forefront reminding Germans of their ancient history.

The story goes - during Roman times Rome thought Germans were the bravest people in the world and yet, in one battle the Roman Marius destroyed his German enemy. The battlefield ran with human blood and the deluge of slain Germans became the fertilizer that feeds the best wines of Italy. 

The Germans drew up into several solid squares measuring over 5 kilometers each and fastened themselves together with chains so the enemy could not break through. Even the dogs used to guard ammunition attacked ferociously. When all was about lost the remaining Germans killed their women and children rather than see them fall to the Romans. This courage was the tale that caused terror and foreboding through European history and is the story that sustains German tradition that goes with a saying - 'Germans are born free under their ancient oaks, never will we be slaves though the whole world is against us. Death rather than the loss of our liberty.'

Through out German history is the belief that to kill the roots of the ancient oak and chop off its limbs Germany becomes a geographical designation until, someone else comes along and waters the roots, often with blood with the idea the Fatherland should, under God be free and united sustained by the ancient Teutonic brotherhood.  Nothing in the myth about making Jews the scapegoat - that horror appears to be a phenomenon that hopefully had its day. Although, visiting parts of Europe you have to wonder.

In the book it was interesting to read how some realized the real culprit who wanted world domination in his hip pocket was Stalin. Where as using this old cultural myth I can see Hitler wanted his sold squares and to include in his squares the lands where Germans lived. I think once he went to war with America that forced him into a different goal - which makes me think that was his hesitation to declare War - that to me would be interesting to learn - more about those days just before he declared war that made him believe it was his move to make.

[JoanK]

PUTNEY: WELCOME BACK! Do tell us about the early years of Seniornet.

I was a teenager in Washington DC when peace was declared. Do you still live there?

[bellamarie]

CallieinOK,  "He was an egotistical, self-serving man who used his fame to say what he thought when he wanted to say it and do what he wanted when he wanted to do it - and cared not a fig for the effect his statements or actions had on those around him."

This just about describes every politician who holds, has held, or aspires to hold any office, including the Presidency.  This book sure did open my eyes to how this type of character in politicians, famous people, celebrities etc. is seeming the norm.   

Jonathon, I have been told I live in a bubble due to me being so naive, hopeful to see the best in people, and being a hopeless romantic.  I must say.......I like my bubble.  LOLOL    But I do set myself up for disappointment and sadness when reality sets in.  

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, Bellemaria that is why I question how we raise our children - we teach them and measure ourselves by our better nature so that when kids hit the real world they are as shocked as we are that many, long ago left their better nature on some doorstep -

The problem, we are not equipped to read the signs and often do not know how to protect ourselves when we do realize what is happening, just as we do not know how to measure the integrity of others. We assume they are coming from the same place we are - lots of damage that I see as unnecessary if we were taught early on that evil exists and it is not in the form of a pitch fork holding miniature man dressed in red whispering in our ear but rather, someone who bullies, mis-using authority, status and panache.

As to differences in viewpoint I can buy that  - it is the petty behavior that grown people adapt and inflict on those with whom they disagree therefore, they make them into an enemy. Then god forbid one wins the match-up and we must suffer through their interpretation of not only what happened but their description of those holding another viewpoint. Reminds me of being a kid and taking sides in the schoolyard based on what the winner says about the loser. You do not dare line up with the loser or you may be the next victim and if you simply stay out of it no one likes you and you are picked on from both sides.

[bellamarie]

BarbStAubrey,  Your post is so very true, and said so eloquently.  I am of Italian descent, so our passion sometimes can be misinterpreted by those who are not familiar to our over zealous personalities.  Being a teacher for over 30 yrs I welcome and enjoy many viewpoints.  Your analogy of the bully is so true.  Not only when we hit the real world are we shocked, I am shocked within my own family.  We have fire alarms, tornado sirens and storm watch alerts to protect us....too bad we don't come equipped with a warning signal to help us to as you say, "measure the integrity of others."  I teach religion classes, I attend Bible studies, I go to Mass, read spiritual books, and participate in my Christian community and still......BAM that little red man with the pitchfork still shows up.  LOLOL  I know its a part of human nature, and so I go on about my day and do the best I can.  Ciao for now my Pizan!

[HaroldArnold]

This morning  it sees that I have lost my Book.  Yes my digital copy of "Those Angry Days" has disappeared from my Nook, I-Pad and other devices.  I'll have to call B&N, but I"ll go ahead and post on a point that strikes me as strange goings on in the War Dept. at the Highest command levels in the fall of 1941. 


General Marshal in the fall of 1942 seeing the likelihood  that the US would soon be in the War with Germany, had assigned the task of preparation of a comprehensive War Plan for joint operations with Britain for defeating Nazi Germany.  I don't now have the Major's name, but I think I recognized it as a WWII General who by the end of the war held a high command in Asia.  It was indeed a very comprehensive plan that envisioned a joint US/UK return to continental Europe in 1943.  Amazingly a copy of this top secret plan showed up in the hands of a leading Isolationist Senator.   Though I don’t remember this event, the existence of such a plan certainly caught the attention of the Isolationist Press and the highest levels of the Government including the President, the Secretary of war and General Marshal.


A comprehensive War department investigation was order to determine how and who leaked the document to the Senator.  Before the investigation was complete the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor and Hitler’s responded with the declaration of war on the US had reduced the impact of the results, but as I remember the result was that it was General H.H. Arnold the commanding general of the Air Force who had leaked the document.   Arnold had been in the 1930’s one of the officers more friendly with German Contacts.  At that point any guilt reflecting on Arnold was forgotten, and so far as I know has never been recorded before it was published in this book.


Also I am no relation to the General.  He descends from English Arnolds, I from an 1850’s German immigrant to Indiana.  Yet during the war when I was in the Navy at every station, my section officer, usually an Ensign or Ltjg would ask, "er—er,  Are you related to General Arnold.”   I was tempted but never actually said what I was thinking,  OH, yes-You mean Uncle Hap” 

[Jonathan]

The report...'if accurate, also showed the president of the United States to be a liar.' p 412

Harold, the book says it was Major Albert Wedemeyer, 'one of the most isolationist officers in the Army', who directed the military plan study. Strange consequences followed from this leak to the press. Some think it was the deciding factor which led Hitler to declare war on the U.S. But Japan preempted him at Pearl Harbor.

[Jonathan]

Thanks, Barb, for the link to a bit of German history. It was a time of nation-building in Europe. That's usually accompanied by a lot of violence. And when Wilhelm II had his realm, he got dreams of empire, like his cousin on the British throne.

Here's a curious quote from our book, on page 436:

'The news of the Holocaust exposed, once and for all, the speciousness of Lindbergh's argument that the war was a clash of rival imperialistic states, with both sides undeserving of U.S. support.'

We've been told Lindbergh was a fascist, but this argument of his makes him out as a marxist. One thing that impresses me about this book is how sucessfylly the author has surfed the quicksands of anti-Semitism. All the rest of the isolationists went on with their lives. Lindbergh's isolationism killed him. I can understand why the Brits and the Jews wanted him discredited, they were fighting for their lives, but the president seemed only afraid of facing him in an election, or at least was warned about it.

[Ella Gibbons]

Hello Uncle Hap.   Hope you get your book back.  We have the week to finish our discussion of the book

JONATHAN, thanks for the invitation to Canada, I've been there several times.   How difficult is it to cross the border these days?  LYears ago, I don't believe we needed a passport; the first time we went to Niagara Falls and around there, we crossed the border somewhere and showed no papers at all -  not a border patrol anywhere. 

Chapter 23 certainly knocks Lindbergh off any pedestal he once had.  What in the world made the  man continue those speeches - the newspapers were all castigating him for his views, his anti-semistism.  He paid no attention!!  If I had been Anne I would have taken the children to Mother's house and stayed until the guy apologized. 

I don't know- what was the author's purpose of including Lindbergh in the title of this book?

[HaroldArnold]

Well, I've got my book back.  It seems that I accidentally deleted in last night.  I had been reading it in bed with the lights out..  I shut it down in the dark about 11:30.  I have no idea how the delete happened.  The B&N technician told me they could restore the Book, but it would be without my notes and highlights.  But by golly those notes and highlights are back too.


Lindbergh had Immediately after the Pearl Harbor attack asked Roosevelt to reinstate him for active Air Force duty.  Despite a favorable recommendation by Hap Arnold, Roosevelt turned him down.  At that point it looked like Lindbergh was destined to spend the war as a civilian, but it was not to stand. Again  though he remained a persona non grata with the Roosevelt Administration his Air Force friends hired him as a civilian to test pilot Fighter Planes in the South Pacific. Because of the apparent independence of the war Department Generals, Lindbergh was transported by the Air Force to a South Pacific base where he  participated in uniform as a fighter pilot  in combat.  Lynne Olson says he even shot down one Japanese Zero, and on another occasion he almost got shot down himself.  Lynne OLson also notes that one change Lindbergh suggested in the P.-38 Fighter resulted in a 500 mile increase in its operational range.  In any case Lindbergh did serve in active combat duty in the Pacific.


 


   

[Ella Gibbons]

THE YANKS ARE COMING, EVEN JOE PALOOKA

[Ella Gibbons]

Fun, to see those old comics isn't it?  Newspapers around the country were backing the Roosevelt administration, blackouts were practiced, wardens being appointed (I vaguely remember this).  I think there are still a few places where the metal yellow/black sign - Shelter - can be seen.  Have you seen any?

It was very interesting to me that there was a base in Portland, Maine, a key base for the U.S. Atlantic Fleet.  My sister married a veteran and they moved there shortly after the war, I visited there several times; I must look up where the base was situated.   I know a bit about Portland's history but I would like to know more.

"During the Atlantic Conference, Roosevelt had told Churchill he planned to 'look for an incident which would justify him in opening hostilities.'"

In a way you can understand this statement, FDR believeed strongly that we needed to get in the war; still it is difficult to read that a president wanted this, isn't it?  A death, an explosion, something!

What incidents have we encountered to justify the wars in Vietnam, Korea, the Gulf, Afghanistan?

[BarbStAubrey]

I'm seeing this Syria thing bringing us to a similar place as in the late 30s when most folks wanted war like a hole in the head and many thought the ocean was our safe guard and barrier - I think we now see two sides of the ancient Islamic war being played out and we do not want to get pulled in now that we understand as compared to our being pulled into Iraq without our understanding. It will be interesting to see if we have another major conflict or if it becomes a UN action like Bosnia.

[JoanP]

Glad you got your book back...and your notes too, Harold! I thought it was going to be a happy ending for Lindbergh at the end of the war securing his place in history .  I'm wondering if the revelations concerning his personal life have changed anyone's assessment of the man and his character, his achievements?
 

[JoanP]

The media showed strong support for sending the "boys" into WWII after Pearl Harbor!  Even the comic books the little kids were reading, like Joe Palooka.  I recognized all of the movie stars Lynne O. mentioned. I watched Jimmy Stewart in Frank Capra's "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" the other night. The film came out in 1939, portraying the Isolationist, Burton Wheeler as an admirable, independent, highly principled Senator from Montana.  The film industry quickly reversed its stand in 1941...Pearl Harbor changed everything.
 
I have a hard time reading about " the Pearl Harbor incident" as if it was just a bunch of ships that went down, a military maneuver we should have been prepared for.  I would imagine that it was the loss of life, over a thousand sailors trapped forever in their watery grave, that sent our young men in droves to enlist- some even lied about their ages to get in.  I missed the real passion, the emotional impact of the "incident" in Lynne Olson's account.

What incidents have we encountered to justify the wars in Vietnam, Korea, the Gulf, Afghanistan?

A good question, Ella.  Of course, Afghanistan was a response to the horrible 9-11 attack on the World Trade Center.  No question about going over the perps!  

Was there a specific incident that brought the US into Vietnam?  Or was it the gradual increase of our involvement there.

I think you're right, Barb - the mood of the country - and the administration is Not inclined to enter into direct conflict with Syria...unless of course, and God forbid, there is an "incident" such as Pearl Harbor...

[BarbStAubrey]

Afghanistan was a response to the horrible 9-11 attack

??!!??

Looks like I will be cutting my participation short - this has been one of the best discussions - learned a lot and explored much which is always fun - last night I fell asleep reading on the sofa and woke up with a start to get to bed - Groggy, my foot hit the table leg and broke two toes - hanging onto furniture and walls to get in here and not even able to easily get my laptop up and running so I am taking an aspirin and back to that sofa for the next few days.  I'll try to make it back and post the end of the week but just in case as Bellamarie says - Ciao

[JoanP]

Really?  You broke two of your ten toes?  That's awful, Barbara.  I hope you've seen a doctor?  I'm so sorry!  We will miss you.

ps  

Afghanistan was a response to the horrible 9-11 attack

"??!!??"

 I'm puzzled at your question/exclamation marks.  Didn't we respond to the terrorist attack on 9-11 and go in there after Osama?  I know you can't answer for a few days, but maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong...

[Ella Gibbons]

Barbara, I hope you are right!

"I think we now see two sides of the ancient Islamic war being played out "

But I doubt it.  We could have seen all of this before we started - do you remember Schwarzkopt from the Iraq War?   I read about him at the time as he wrote me a letter (no doubt, his secretary, but it has his signature on it)  -  he and his family had lived in the MIddle East, perhaps it was Iraq and he knew the ancient strife there.  And there were others who could have testified regarding the Middle East, their culture, their religion, their Koran, their beliefs, etc.

We don't listen too well. 

Imagine my surprise when I read this headline in our paper this morning.

BLAME FDR; HE MADE BIG GOVERNMENT LOOK EASY.

"As his best and generally admiring biographer Conrad Black notes, he was devious, largely ignorant of economics, cruel to subordinates, vacillating on many issues.  But he had a great gift for picking the right person for the right job- if he thought the job was important.  For the unimportant jobs-well, anyone politically useful would do...........Roosevelt's knack for picking the right man or right woman is the central theme of Eric Larrabee's wonderful 1987 book COMMANDER IN CHIEF.    Larrabee shows how FDR selected the unflappable George Marshall to organize a vastly expanded Army, ...Ernest King to lead an aggressive Navy, the grandiloquent Doublas MacArthur to dramatize the side conflict in the South Pacific and Dwight Eisenhower to hold it all together.  No other president has made such excellent military appointments right off the bat.

The article goes on to laud Harry Hopkins.  Mentions Harold Ickes, Joseph Kennedy to set  up the Securisties and Exchange Commission, Mariner Eccles to run the Federal REservice

"FDR's knack for choosing the right person for important jobs resulted from some unknowable combination of knowledge and intuition.  It also showed an overriding concern for getting results."

I like that - I've always admired FDR.   He was human with all his faults, but he came through for America time and time again.

Thanks, JOANP, for the post.  I am going to re-read the last few chapters in the book to get an opinion as to Olson'a views; I would certainly hope she would place the Pearl Harbor incident as a horrible Japanese maneuver and the worst ever attack on US soil.  It was a terrible loss of lives.

[Jonathan]

Two broken toes!! Ouch. I can feel the pain, Barbara.

Interesting, Ella, that you should be reading about Conrad Black's biography of FDR. Black was a very successful financial tycoon, with a lot of business smarts, and a publisher of a string of newspapers, but his avocation seems to be history. His wealth allowed him to acquire a huge amount of Roosevelt papers which he studied and put to use in writing the book on Roosevelt. His most recent biography is on Richard Nixon, whom he also admires.

Sure,  a good leader picks good subordinates to carry out his policies. And that makes the first paragraph in the book so interesting:

'On a soft April morning in 1939, Charles Lindenbergh was summoned to the White House to meet President Franklin D. Roosevelt, arguably the only person in America who equaled him in fame....During his thirty-minute chat with Lindbergh, he gave no sign of the many grave problems weighing on his mind....He was, in fact, in the midst of one of the greatest crises of his presidency.'

Can we doubt that the president was looking him over to see if he could make use of Lindbergh? To make these two the big contestants of her book was a stroke of genius on Olson's part.

[Jonathan]

I'm mistaken. Black's most recent book is about his wrangle with U.S. law courts. I believe the title is A Matter of Principle.

[Jonathan]

For anyone interestd in Charles Lindbergh's Des Moines speech, in September, 1941:

http://www.charleslindbergh.com/americanfirst/speech.asp

These may have been the only truthful words spoken during that  campaign to get the U.S. into the war. He gave it his honest best.

[bellamarie]

Interesting how we are finishing up this book, which I feel has been not much different than today in politics and here we are hearing of entering Syria.  Should Obama have drawn that red line?  Should he have moved the line a few times?  Now that he has information Syria has used chemicals on their own people has it backed Obama into a corner?  They hope to go in quickly and bomb their airfields and get out quickly.  Is that even sensible when you have Russia and China threatening to get involved if we take action?  Again, here we go with polls showing a large per cent against our getting involved, and reports the polls are not accurate.  Is this our present day Those Angry Days?  

I just heard on the news, "The only fear we have to fear, is fear itself."  FDR quote on the day Obama is deciding "when" NOT "if" we strike Syria.  Now that is pretty unbelievable!  I saw a headline "Could this be WW111?"  I pray not!

Here are a few links/articles covering it today:

RUSSIA, CHINA WARN AGAINST STRIKE...
OBAMA'S WAR...
BUCHANAN: Congress should veto...
Strike within days...
Warplanes begin arriving in Cyprus...
Armed forces 'making contingency plans' for military action...
CAMERON RECALLS PARLIAMENT...
HOLLANDE: France ready to 'punish' Syria...
NKOREA caught trying to send gas masks, weapons to Syria...
STOCKS JOLTED...
Russia evacuates 90 people ...
Says West Acting Like 'Monkey With Hand Grenade'...
Top Syrian Official: Obama 'Completely Wrong'; 'Produce The Evidence'...
These headlines and more, right now at Drudge online: http://drudgereport.com/
**Keep up to the minute, join us at: Conservative Patriots of America -- on facebook @: https://www.facebook.com/ConservativePatriotsofAmerica
and also at: Patriots of America -- on Twitter @:
https://twitter.com/1776Patriot007

BarbStAubrey,  I am so very sorry to hear about your broken toes.  I pray they heal quickly, and you are not in too much discomfort.  I hope you make it back in with your laptop.  I always look forward to your posts and insight.  

Ciao for now~

[HaroldArnold]

Barbara I was sorry to hear of your at home accident side tracking you with two broken toes.  Broken toes sure  do hurt but they do have a way of healing.  I 'll bet you'll be back here discussing another book in no time.

Regarding the Roosevelt's administration's responsibility for our current staggering National dept crisis; I think the last year of the Hoover Administration began an increasing annual deficit that accelerated during the New Deal years of the 1st and 2nd administrations followed by much larger deficits during the the WWII years.  Unfortunately with the exception of a few years large annual deficits have continued.   I suspect that the great splurge from 1960 to the present is more the responsibility of the Congress, particularly the House of Representatives who during the next 50 years spiraled the national budget with the federal financing of local and State infrastructure improvement projects.  Also of course there was the cold war that intensified in the 1960's and the crisis resulting from the 9-11-2001 attack that has required  a continuing wartime status until the present time.  

The above are just a few comments on how this now apparently staggering national dept came into existence. It certainly says nothing about what we can do about it, or what further economic result miight follow.    

[bellamarie]

Was watching Bill O'Reiley tonight and he was talking about Obama's indecisiveness about what to do with Syria and how if he has definite proof chemicals were used, we must do something for the humanitarian purpose.  He just compared today with 1940 and FDR's indecisiveness before entering WW11.  We here at Seniorlearn.org are a fortunate group to have just read this book and are up to snuff on 1939 - 1941, considering what is happening today.  I wouldn't be understanding much of what he said if it weren't for reading "Those Angry Days"...... Kudos for us!!!

[Ella Gibbons]

There is still so much to learn in the last chapters of the book - HAVE YOU ALL FINISHED IT???  NOTHING MORE TO SAY???

Bell - thanks for your posts, but I don't think we want to get into present day politics, as much as we would like to, the book still holds our interest.

New facts for me: -

Japan was determined to expand their empire.   I knew they had been fighting China but was too young at the time to pay much attention, but after this, one wonders at their ability to attack the USA:

"The so-called "Rape of Nanking" has gone into the annals of history as one of the most shocking incidents in modern history. Its senior officers allowed the Japanese army to ransack Nanking murdering tens of thousands as they went. The final death toll for Nanjing has been put as high as 250,000. The Guomintang leader, Chiang, had to establish a new capital in Chongqing.
 
The onslaught of the Japanese was relentless. Within 5 months, 1 million Chinese people were under Japanese control. All of the major cities in China were captured by the Japanese by the end of 1937 – so were the major communication systems of the nation.

And I learned more about our embargo and our lendlease program to help China.

"War with Japan......(by the USA) was seen as a tidier conflict, likely to be confined to the seas, and one that the U.S.Navy would easily win."    Really???

 But then further, I read about the Victory Program - "one of the most remarkable documents of American history, for it set down the basic strategy of the global war before this country was involved in it.

The secret document was leaked - the public had a right to know -   punishment was considered

How many "leakages" of secret documents do you remember, ones that made headlines?

[Ella Gibbons]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoW2WYdOsvg&list=PL8ED432F849E116A4

History of the rape of Nanking.   I watched one of the films, did not continue.

Japanese children were taught to hate the Chinese, to die for the Emporer was an honor, Japan had plan to rule the world -----

What did you learn from the film you did not know??

I do remember the names of Hirohita and Chiang Kai Shek though, from the war and articles I have read. How about you?

[bellamarie]

I need to return my library book, welcome my new day care kids, and return to teaching CCD, as my grandkids return back to school.  So ending this book/discussion has come at a perfect time.  

I really enjoyed the book after Olsen got past the few chapters of name dropping, and got into more of the interesting facts leading up to the war.  Not sure Lindbergh played an important enough role in the book to credit his name in the title.  For me, it seems the group, First America was more the reason for FDR's anger, not one person alone.  I did enjoy learning about Lindbergh and Ann.  After reading this book, I come away with an image of FDR as an indecisive president, who needed confirmation from the polls before he could act on anything.  He seemed to have the people behind him more than he realized, unless the polls the author quoted were indeed altered to appease FDR.  We will never know the truth of this one way or the other.  One of the one lines that sticks with me is, "How did we get caught with our pants down?" Japan surprised everyone, while Russia and Germany were distracting and drawing FDR's attention.

Thank you to all of you who participated in this discussion, your posts, knowledge, insight, memories and opinions were very enlightening to me.  I found myself thinking about things you posted as I went about my day.  One thing I will take away from this book is that we must always remember the information the author used, was relied upon those who left diaries, notes, or one on one interviews, which are very helpful, but coming from one person's viewpoint. Another person present at the time, could have an entirely different view of the events and personalities of the people involved, depending on their own personal agendas and party allegiances. With all that being said, I did enjoy the book very much! Thank you Ella and Harold, once again the two of you led a great discussion!

Let us all pray for peace in the world today.

Until the next discussion......Ciao for now~

[JoanP]

What did you learn from the film you did not know??

Oh Ella!  I had to turn it off - watched up to Part 2 - when the Japanese soldiers poured gasoline on the Chinese civilians, children too and then fired on them - the bullets catching fire.  As these soldiers watched the bodies quivver and burn - they laughed hysterically.

I learned that human beings are not really what I think of as "human"....  Why was I so surprised - and  heartsick watching this?  Would you say the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were more merciful?  The pilots of the plane saw only smoke - didn't  have to watch people die.  I'm certainly conflicted about all of this.

Why were the Japanese set on conquering and murdering their nearest neighbor?  THe narrator of the film makes it clear that this was part of a systematic plan - China was the first stop, they planned to continue after China -  until they conquered the world.  Europe was on the list of targets.   I wonder if Hitler was aware of the plan.  These two Axis countries each have the same plan - to rule world.  Mind- boggling to think what might have happened!  I also wonder how much reporting reached the West - about the slaughter going on in China?  Did the administration know?  Do you think our parents knew?

[JoanP]

Before returning to the "Aftermath" chapters, I'd like to put in a plug for the next Book Club Online discussion - Pearl Buck's The Good Earth (this is a link to the discussion.) - beginning on Sept.2  I hope to see you - and everyone here in that discussion, Bellamarie.

  I was interested to see the relationship between Nanking and Shanghai in the film Ella posted.  Pearl Buck spent her young years in the capital city of Nanking and then was sent to boarding school in Shanghai in 1907.  She had written The Good Earth in 1930 in Nanking.  I worried about her - and her family, when the Japanese began  bombing Nanking in 1937...and China was recruiting the young boys 12-13 years old into the army to defend the city from the Japanese.

But she and her family had returned to America in 1934  - to escape the threatening atmosphere for foreigners in China, a result of the struggle between the Nationalists and the Communists.  She would never return to China.

[HaroldArnold]

Regarding our book, what is your concluding opinion of it as a discussion topic?  During its reading there were times when I seemed all but over whelmed by the mass of detail included.  There were times when I wondered if all of it was really necessary.  I have never before digitally  highlighted and noted so many pages from the beginning to the end.   

By the way this is not the first time this group has been exposed to a Lynne Olson book.  Some of you may remember our discussion of the "Angry Young Men" four or five years ago?  The subject there centered on 1940 and the group of angry young men who bough Winston Churchill to power. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Strategically placed chairs and I am able to get in here to get online again - Today I can actually stand without crumbling - it is just the walking that is accompanied by my lips saying ow ow ow -

Hope Bellamarie peeks in again because she needs to know how much her posts added to my enjoyment of this conversation. It is for me one of our best.

Yes Harold, during this read I did get on my kindle her other two books - almost finished with both of them - interesting they are all about the same period.

As I kid I remember being traumatized by a poster showing the Japanese attacking the Chinese - remember no TV to immunize horror - had not seen a movie yet although it was later that summer I did see my first movie - it was the summer of '38 and I stood in front of that poster shocked, bewildered and frozen to the spot so that even my mother calling me to catch up I could not move - she had to come and get me and putting her hand on my shoulder said something about it being far away.  

I can still see that poster in my minds eye - soldiers with those wrappings around their legs using what I later learned were bayonets into people - huge flashes of explosions with Chinese people fleeing with a look of drop dead fear - some carrying their babies - the poster was located on a pole at the entry where the Boy Scouts were staying in what to me was a city of tents - my older cousin and my uncle were among them and we came to visit and watch their performance. I remember not being able to function like I was in a dense fog - not afraid but going to bed that night I was wide eyed not able to leave the image. It was so beyond anything I could ever imagine and these were real people.

Last week I was talking to my next door neighbor about the book and he reminded me of the death toll inflicted by the Japanese in much of Asia so that we forget their atrocities matched Hitler's with Stalin commanding even greater numbers during his reign. He did a great amount of reading last winter for their family trip through Russia, Latvia, Estonia, Poland, Czech Republic on and on down to Turkey finishing it off with a few days rest on a Greek Island - The older boy High School and the younger last year of Jr. High. - Two years ago they did all of South America and last year they hit the high spots across the US. All to say during our conversation he was saying how in places the vistied it was as if WWII ended yesterday - in some areas, palatable is the anger at Russia and in other areas exuberant elation shown because they were American with all sorts of stories again about WWII - they stay in hostels and so had a better mix of conversation than staying in hotels.

Has anyone every looked into the history of why the Japanese went on their rampage starting in the early 30s - what was going on that made them believe conquering Asia was in their cards.

[Jonathan]

From Barb: 'Has anyone every looked into the history of why the Japanese went on their rampage starting in the early 30s - what was going on that made them believe conquering Asia was in their cards.'

Good to hear from you again. There must be many more recent books on the subject, but I found John Toland's The Rising Sun, The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire, published in 1970, very interesting.

My computer isn't up to serving up the link that Ella provided for the Nanking atrocities. But I do have the book on it by Iris Chang, The Rape of Nanking. In it she has a reference to an American surgeon, Robert Wilson, who stayed on in Nanking when others were leaving. He was born there, and as a boy was taught geometry by Pearl Buck.

It must have been a nightmare to research and write and left her debilitated by depression. She took her own life in 2004, at the age of 36.

[JoanP]

Good to see you hobble back to the discussion, Barb.  owowowowie...  

From the link that Ella provided this morning, it seems that China was the first step towards Japan's rule of the world.  The Emperor was considered a god.  Japanese children were taught from a young age to be soldiers in the Emperor's army.  To rule the world, the first, and most important step - to conquer China.  Then a systematic war on every other country, including Europe.  Once accomplished, Japan would rule the world.  That was the ultimate goal.  Every Japanese boy would fight to the death to accomplish this.  I think more research is needed to learn what caused the Emperor to want to rule the world.

[JoanP]

Started looking at some of the propaganda art after reading your post, - some are mighty graphic, as you described.  Not sure about their purpose?  To frighten American citizens to continue the war with Japan?  It sure frightened you!  I remember seeing newsreels - Japanese pilots gunning down American planes - with big toothy smiles as they did.  They frightened me more than any German soldier did. They seemed to delight in killing.  Here's one I think would have stayed with me...

[HaroldArnold]

Regarding the 1939-40 Japanese treatment of Chinese prisoners I recall a Life Magazine picture of what appeared to be a barbed-wired Japanese prison yard with a prostrate Chinese prisoner on the ground and a Japanese guard armed with a bayonet tipped Rifle aimed at the Chinese.  The caption indicated that he was being being prick to get him into a better position for execution.  At that time I did not have a Life subscription but regularly read a neighbor's copy.          

[Ella Gibbons]

BARBARA, crutches - would they help?  Glad to see you here!

STEPHANIE, we hope to see you in a discussion also.  THE GOOD EARTH?   

"The war was the result of a decades-long Japanese imperialist policy aiming to dominate China politically and militarily and to secure its vast raw material reserves and other economic resources, particularly food and labour. " - Gosh now I forget where on the web I read that, but it was stated in our book also.

Oil particularly as I remember.  Resources.  And, as our book stated, we had established an embargo on strategic resources to Japan.

JOANP - I couldn't get past that first part of the Youtube video either - it was terrible.  I know the navy - the sailors - who fought the Japanese on islands in the Pacific- the marines - all talked of their cruelty, their yells as they fought.  They called them "Japs" but today that is a derogatory name for the Japanese.  War is hellish.

JONATHAN - I looked up the book, THE RAPE OF NANKING - a summary, from my library:

"Iris Chang's best-selling book The Rape of Nanking forever changed the way we view the Second World War in Asia. It all began with a photo of a river choked with the bodies of hundreds of Chinese civilians that shook Iris to her core. Who were these people? Why had this happened and how could their story have been lost to history? She could not shake that image from her head. She could not forget what she had seen. A few short years later, Chang revealed this 'second Holocaust' to the world. But who was this woman that single-handedly swept away years of silence, secrecy and shame? Her mother, Ying-Ying, provides an enlightened and nuanced look at her daughter, from Iris' home-made childhood newspaper, to her early years as a journalist and later, as a promising young historian, her struggles with her son's autism and her tragic suicide"--Dust jacket

How very sad.    Have you read the book?

[Ella Gibbons]

We are getting into the Labor Day weekend and I propose that we finalize our posts and the discussion by tomorrow.

IS THAT ALL RIGHT WITH EVERYONE?

The last chapter is rather a sweeping up of odds and ends of people mentioned in the book.  We leave the germans fighting on two fronts and the Allies also fighting on two fronts.  IT WAS A GREAT WAR - air, sea and land.

HOPEFULLY, WE WILL NEVER SEE ANOTHER ONE LIKE IT, and I would hope we can discontinue all wars, have peace throughout the world.  Why cause each other, all mankind, such heartache!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 I have one question though, maybe someone can answer it - what does this statement mean, how does one interpret it:

"THE ARCHITECTS OF AMERICA"S OVERARCHING ROLE IN THE POSTWAR WORLD..............WERE DETERMINED TO CREATE A PAX AMERICANA, A VISION OF THEIR COUNTRY'S FUTURE............THAT DEMANDED THE 'RESHAPING OF AMERICA'S TRADITIONAL ROLE.......AND A RESTRUCTURING OF THE GLOBAL BALANCE OF POWER.  

IT WAS A RESHAPING THAT WOULD LEAD TO THE VIETNAM AND IRAQ WARS, AMONG OTHER FUTURE CONFLICTS."

A restructure of the global balance of power???

[JoanP]

Before saying another word, Ella, I'd like to join the others in thanking you and Harold for keeping the discussion  moving at a steady pace throughout this long and fact-packed book.   Not just covering Lynne Olson's book, but providing plenty to think about as we read.  I'd like to thank Lynne Olson, if she can hear me, for the chapter notes and references at the back of the book.  She left nothing undocumented.  Just the facts, maam.

I've been giving some thought to what some have said about too much on the relationship between C. Lindbergh and Roosevelt during those angry days.  If you consider that the struggle really was whether or not America should enter another war, the struggle was between those who believed we needed to intervene, that is was the moral thing to do to save Britain - and the isolationists.  The Pres. believed we needed to go, but needed public support first.  The obstacle was the vocal Isolationists, successful in swaying the opinion of the American public who really wanted to avoid another war.  Charles Lindbergh was the voice of America First.  The struggle was between these two groups.  You really can't play down Lindbergh's role.

Do you consider yourself an isolationist as far as Syria is concerned?  There are many here in Washington who are. Afraid if we get involved, we won't get out.  Ella, I'm with you - hoping against hope  for world peace.   I think the book ended on that note, hopeful, though dubious.

Pax Americana is primarily used in its modern connotations concerning the peace established after the end of World War II in 1945. In this modern sense, the term has come to indicate the military and economic position of the United States in relation to other nations.

But our military might and economic strength did not keep us from entering Vietnam, from  Iraq.  I read this sobering article in the LA Times ....(before the recent upheaval in Syria.)  I think that this is what is meant by "the restructuring of the balance of power.:

The international order that emerged after World War II has rightly been termed the Pax Americana; it's a Washington-led arrangement that has maintained political stability and promoted an open global economic system. Today, however, the Pax Americana is withering, thanks to what the National Intelligence Council in a recent report described as a "global shift in relative wealth and economic power without precedent in modern history" -- a shift that has accelerated enormously as a result of the economic crisis of 2007-2009.

At the heart of this geopolitical sea change is China's robust economic growth. Not because Beijing will necessarily threaten American interests but because a newly powerful China by necessity means a relative decline in American power, the very foundation of the postwar international order. These developments remind us that changes in the global balance of power can be sudden and discontinuous rather than gradual and evolutionary.

[Ella Gibbons]

Thanks, JOAN, for your remarks!  But the last paragraph of your explanation of pax americana necessitates that our group here must discuss a book on present-day China.   We  owe to ourselves, our children, etc.

This phrase alone - a newly powerful China by necessity means a relative decline in American power" is rather frightening.  We all have lived in a time where our country has been very powerful and stable in the world, regardless of errors we have made.  What does our country's  future hold?

Can we find one that is not too technical?