Author Topic: Those Angry Days by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online  (Read 61079 times)

JoanK

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #80 on: August 01, 2013, 03:46:50 PM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.
August Book Club Online

THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson
Roosevelt, Lindbergh, and America’s Fight Over World War II, 1939-1941
 




".............the definitive account of the debate over American intervention in World War II—a bitter, sometimes violent clash of personalities and ideas that divided the nation and ultimately determined the fate of the free world.   - The New York Times


“In Those Angry Days, journalist-turned-historian Lynne Olson captures [the] period in a fast-moving, highly readable narrative punctuated by high drama. It’s . . . popular history at its most riveting, detailing what the author rightfully characterizes as ‘a brutal, no-holds-barred battle for the soul of the nation.’ It is sure to captivate readers seeking a deeper understanding of how public opinion gradually shifted as America moved from bystander to combatant in the war to preserve democracy.”—Associated Press
DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:  
        August 1-7     Chapters 1-7
        August 8-14     Chapters 8-14
        August 15-21   Chapters 15-21
        August 22-28   Chapters 22-28

Discussion Leaders:   Ella  & Harold

I saw the show last night on who kidnapped the Lindbergs baby, and also an earlier History detectives, focusing on his role in developing new planes. Wonder if he is suddenly on TV as a reaction to this book.

Finished the reading last night as well. This book is like those harsh photos that show every wart and pimple of the person and hide their good qualities. Neither Lindberg nor FDR come out looking good.

In Lindberg's case, it is our silly fault for thinking that just because someone is a wonderful flyer, he's someone whose opinion we should look to in politics. I have lots of sports stars I admire, but I wouldn't even think of asking them how I should vote!

I was intrigued by meeting the model for James Bond. Had any of you heard of him?

HaroldArnold

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #81 on: August 01, 2013, 06:32:30 PM »
Bellamarie, you make a good point connecting the deaths of Princess Diana and John Kennedy Jr with excessive press interference in their privates lives.  This is particularly true in the United States where there is express constitutional provisions guarantee the freedom of the press.  Generally the Courts have been inclined to allow this right to publish liberally.

On Where I stood during 1939  - 1941 clearly I had a pretty good idea of what was going on in Europe reading Life Magazine and other news source including radio and printed press.  After Xmas 1941 I also had shortwave radio.  I was 13 in Oct 1939, but from the beginning I admired the English and particularly Churchill.  Alternately there was nothing in Germany attractive to me.  I certainly was not an Isolationist.   

Also looking back quite likely it was probably good that The US delayed in entering the war since it gave us 2 years to build our ability to fight a war.  The two years delay gave us some creditability as a serious contender enabling a turnaround win at Midway just 7 months later and participation in the North Africa offensive less than a year later.       

Ella Gibbons

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #82 on: August 01, 2013, 08:02:30 PM »
OH, THANK YOU ALL FOR POSTING, ISN'T IT ALL INTERESTING?

Lindbergh, would anyone have known him at all if he had not made that successful fllight across the Atlantic?   

After his historic flight, the resulting publicity, the media circus surrounding the death of his son, he decided he and his family had no alternative but to leave America.

He said...‘…. a condition exists which is intolerable for us………..we Americans are a primitive people.   We do not have discipline.  Our moral standards are low.  It shows in the newspapers, the morbid curiosity over crimes and murder trials.   Americans seem to have little respect for law, or the rights of others.”

Lindberg would be appalled today with our TV and its emphasis on crime, murder trials.  The recent Zimmerman trial, for example.  Is this an indication that we are a  morbid, primitive people?

As several of you have noted, and Harold stated, our constitution provides for freedom of the press.  However, we know the press, the media, give us what we want or what we will watch.

What is your opinion of our interest in crime?  Does this bother anyone?

bellamarie

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #83 on: August 01, 2013, 11:49:21 PM »
I'm not so sure I personally have a fascination for the news coverage of crimes.  I have breakfast every morning with my husband and we watch the morning news, mostly for the weather report.  In our city we have almost at least one murder, arson, or other form of crime reported every morning.  I am disgusted, because I feel this administration and our local elected officials are not doing more to crack down on the crime by passing stronger penalties for committing crimes and repeated offenders.  I don't watch any of the CSI weekly shows or any shows that have gotten so insensitive to crime that they show anything and everything for shock value.  

Joan K,  "In Lindberg's case, it is our silly fault for thinking that just because someone is a wonderful flyer, he's someone whose opinion we should look to in politics. I have lots of sports stars I admire, but I wouldn't even think of asking them how I should vote!"

I agree with you completely, and I will go one step further,  I like a lot of actors and actresses, but I KNOW I do NOT need nor want their endorsements or public ads to try to influence my vote, or personal ideas close to my heart such as, abortion, health insurance, etc.,  just because I pay to see a movie they are acting in.  I feel the United States has gotten so enamored with Hollywood, and Hollywood has gotten so enamored with themselves, to the point of thinking because they play HUGE parts in movies, they are HUGE enough in real life to alter our thinking and votes.

Ella, Yes, I think Lindberg would have still been a name in history, and newsworthy, had he not made that flight due to his association and participation of the airplanes and airlines.

Ciao for now~  

p.s.  Oooooops my apologies, the author of The Day John Died is Christopher Andersen (not Lynn Olson) what was I thinking? ???
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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #84 on: August 02, 2013, 03:48:49 AM »
Ella...Bellamarie, I too think our news sources get over-wound up with their reports of murder and crimes; and I sometimes wonder why I am listening/watching this news program ....last night for instance on a Canadian TV station they reported Zimmerman being pulled over by the police for a driving offence and finding a gun in the car....would that have been newsworthy if it had been my American Uncle Fred for instance...there was no charge laid, nothing bad happened

JoanK-there are so many sides to a story or a person's perception of an event that portrayal of it can be severely slanted and therefore unreliable as a truth...Lindbergh's view of Germany, the Germany that the high command wished him to see, he mainly associated with the upper crust and did not get the average Joe's thoughts from the streets, his refusal to be overly concerned (pg 19) with the Gestapo pogrom November 1938 & the murder of hundreds of German Jews, not to mention vandalizing and the burning of businesses, homes & synagogues.................yet his influence was enough that many people took his word to be their fact, --scary--he didn't even speak German, everything would have needed to be translated for him
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waafer

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #85 on: August 02, 2013, 06:00:56 AM »
Have not got this book yet but I do remember the War years as I was born in 1922.  I had just started work in a Law office and gradually all the young men joined the forces. Now mine is an Australian view point. Wanted to join up in 1941 but could not get my father,s permission  but by 1942 events had happened- Pearl Harbour, Darwin (Australia) had been bombed by the Japs and a whole Australian Division of soldiers had been captured in Singapore and the future looked grim in this country.  What saved Australia??? Well General Macarthur arrived withplanes -ships-and a well equipped Army.  In the WAAAF I was drafted to Allied Headquarters and worked in different sections of Intelligence-Photographic interpretation,Central Intelligence Unit and also at ATIS which was Allied Translater and Interpreters section.  All these sections were staffed mostly by Americans.  Until the end of the war these years were bitter sweet- sometimes good news and other times the casualty lists.  My generation (and there are not many left now) KNOW that if we had not had USA come to our rescue The Japs would have invaded Australia from the North.

I do read the book discussions -have just finished reading The Bear came over the Mountain but these days I am a slow reader but must go get my kindle and get this book.  You may not see many posts from me but I will be following   .

HaroldArnold

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #86 on: August 02, 2013, 12:44:07 PM »
Thank you Waafer for your post relative to your experience in Australia in 1942.  I Know Australia was in danger of a Japanese inversion and in fact in May 1942 a U.S task  force with two U.S. carriers  encountered a similarly sized Japanese  carrier force involved in an attack on Port Moresby.   What followed was the first modern naval battle in which the opposing fleets never saw one another.  The battle was an air encounter with the opposing ships a hundred miles apart.   Though each of the opponents lost a carrier the battle was deemed an American success as the Japanese withdrew from their Port Moresby objective.   Also this battle has been judged a preliminary to the summer 1942 Battle of Midway because the damaged U.S.  Carrier was hastily repaired. and was ready for the Midway operation.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #87 on: August 02, 2013, 01:24:52 PM »
Good afternoon WAAFER!  When you get your book, you will be reading about the hostility many Americans had toward Great Britain and intervention.  Always, forever, we will be wondering what would  have happened if the Japanese had not attacked us when they did.  The country did a complete turn-around and very quickly.

However, this book is centered on the years prior to that attack and Lindbergh, a hero at the time, was giving speeches on the radio and the newspapers were quoting him constantly.  It is hard for me to believe that Lindbergh was listened to;  by what authority, what source other than his trips to Germany, made him believe he  was correct in his views.

He was young, shy, a pilot.  The New York Times criticized the “peculiar young man” for his attitude and then FDR became enraged stating among other like statements:   “What a pity that this youngster has completely abandoned his belief in our form of government and has adopted Nazi methods because apparently they are efficient.”

Other than planes, weapons, what did he know of diplomacy, as BELLEMARIE and JOANK both stated.

Do you think the author has exaggerated his influence with the public?  And used Lindbergh, possibly, to make the book more interesting?

We read about Dorothy Thompson, who was a very popular columnist and who had lived in Austria and Germany when Hitler was rising to power.  She wrote of his evil regime - "Nazism is a complete break with reason, with the Christian ethics that are at the bas of liberalism and democracy."

And then there was Eleanor..........

 

BarbStAubrey

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #88 on: August 02, 2013, 01:25:58 PM »
I feel like I am barging in here - I do not have the book however, I posted in the non-fiction some information that Jonathen suggested I bring to this discussion - I am simply going to copy and paste two of the posts that have information that may be helpful


That was a peek into my mother's youthful fantasy crush - in her photo album she had a photo of Lindbergh next to his plane the Spirit of St. Louis. Good looking - a bit fay compared to my father but he must have had a strong character to attempt crossing the ocean in that plane.

In the thirties most folks were against the war - but it was little talked about except in the German communities as we were beginning to hear stories that were not fun from about '37 on - but we still never dreamed we would be in the war.

It is amazing how we are not satisfied looking at a whole man but rather caricature someone - even Hitler who now we only see him as a monster that he was but he also did many good things like designing one of the most successful cars that we had movies featuring and for years was the first car for most college age kids. He designed the Volkswagen Beetle as the "people's car" in the early thirties when most of the west was still deep in the depression. The depression may have been officially over by about '35 or '36 but most lower income families were still struggling on the cusp of poverty and wondering hobos were still the norm till about 1940. In that depressed economy no one wanted a war. We still believed the oceans protected us.

Alex S. Perry, Jr says, "Had Hitler been the kind of man history says he was and had he captured the British army at Dunkirk, which he could easily have done and should have done, he could have written the peace ticket without invading Britain. Churchill's worried son Randolph asked Churchill a few days after he became the prime minister how could he expect to win this war. Churchill replied, "I shall drag the United States in.""

I think over the years folks have written their version of history as they try to come to grips with the holocaust. And yet, when you look at the article written in 1912 "If I Were Kaiser" the entire program for WWII was laid out and originated when Bismark united Germany in the nineteenth century including the Jewish "Question". - here is a copy - http://www.h-net.org/~german/gtext/kaiserreich/class.html

Lindbergh was not alone believing they could avoid war. As I recall the Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain attempted to negotiate for peace but it was Churchill who wanted war.

Hindsight is great and had we known the system Hitler would use to achieve the program as outlined in the 1912 published piece none of us would have avoided the inevitable - as I recall our aversion to war was so great we would not accept a ship full of Jews escaping Europe so that they were sent back to face their horrors. In affect most, if not all of us, were Lindberghs.
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BarbStAubrey

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #89 on: August 02, 2013, 01:30:40 PM »
The second post with some personal experience before we entered the war.

Yes, thank goodness for Churchill's determination - I do not think the book under discussion is about who was right or wrong but rather what happened -

Some very good people were trying to keep us out of war - The US only got in as a result of Pearl Harbor although, some young men were going to either Canada or England to fly before we as a nation entered the war -

There are books indicated that Pearl Harbor was a set up to get the US into the war because the majority in the nation did not want to be involved - War in Europe was considered far away over the ocean and had nothing to do with us. That almost immediately changed after Pearl Harbor although, quietly for a few years before Pearl Harbor there were government internment and deportation of Germans in the US.

My best friend's Uncle had only come from Germany a few years before and in '39 he was taken by plainclothes men with badges - I was young and did not know what branch of the government came for him but I do not think the CIA existed yet so it was probably the FBI that was pretty new as well. All to say the nation and many leaders may have been against entering the war but some officials must have seen Germany from a different perspective
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

HaroldArnold

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #90 on: August 02, 2013, 01:36:18 PM »
Regarding Lindbergh in 1942 I really didn't know much about hi m except he was famous as the first man to fly a plane across the Atlantic, he had a baby who had been kidnapped and murdered., and the killer had been caught and executed.  I really did not know about his political/social activities.   He is an interesting personality deserving of his many honors and awards. Yet obviously in the light of history he was wrong.  I do think however as I said yesterday the world was better off that the U.S. delayed its entry into WW II until the end of 1941 as the delay gave us 2 year for substantial upgrading of the fighting capability of the army, navy and air force.  Within just a few months after Pearl Harbor  the U.S. was able to participate in both defensive an offensive action on two fronts, Coral Sea, Midway, and North Africa.  

Back to Lindbergh I note from browsing the wickopea encyclopedia that Lindbergh had quit college midway in his sophomore year to learn flying.  For a while after that he toured the country appearing in air shows.  Also he was in my home town, San Antonio TX, for one year where he won his Wings and 2nd Lieutenant bar.  He was first in his graduating class but assigned to the reserves since the army did not need more pilots on active duty at the time.   His trans Atlantic Flight was in response to an advertised cash prize the had already taken the lives of some half dozen men.  He as it turned out was the lucky one and was immediately a World Hero        

BarbStAubrey

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #91 on: August 02, 2013, 01:54:18 PM »
My memory of Lindbergh during the years leading up to the war he was no longer shy although, not outgoing but very passionate - this was after they had their baby stolen and I wonder if that changed him to become more forceful - I remember seeing him on newsreels speaking, as he  came off a commercial plane after visiting Germany and once heard him on the radio - he was strong in his belief that war was not in our best interest - however, there were many average folks who agreed with him so he was not whistling in the wind - I remember the talk among the grown-up that it was over there and the ocean was between us and Europe.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Ella Gibbons

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #92 on: August 02, 2013, 02:09:15 PM »

HI BARBARA!  There were probably German Americans everywhere who felt the antgaonism of the public before and during the war.  We have what is now called GERMAN VILLAGE and the city is very proud of it; they have tours of all kinds through the village, with its brick streets, adorable small brick houses, festivals. etc.   From what I understand no one called it that during the early decades of the 20th century. 

And no one in the years of the thirties was singing OVER THERE, OVER THERE as they did during WWI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Village 

Read about the decline of the village in that  article.

PatH

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #93 on: August 02, 2013, 02:20:05 PM »
I don't think the author exaggerates Lindbergh's influence.  He was so very prominent, and people tended to set great store by the opinions of celebrities.  Olson makes it clear that Lindbergh was one of many saying the same thing, albeit the most visible, and also that there was plenty of very vocal opposition.

CallieOK

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #94 on: August 02, 2013, 02:44:49 PM »
As we get farther into the book, there will be more about Lindbergh's temperament and personality.   
I remember my Mother telling about sitting on the curb of Main Street in OKC watching Lindbergh go by in a parade after his famous flight.  She had just had her wisdom teeth removed - but didn't want to miss the excitement.
I don't remember ever hearing any more about him.

I only vaguely remember hearing about how wonderful Roosevelt was during the war years.  It's been enlightening to read about him during the years covered in this book.

PatH

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #95 on: August 02, 2013, 03:09:25 PM »
Books on a subject seem to appear in clusters.  Sunday's New York Times Book Review describes three.  One review covers Olson's book and 1940--FDR, Willkie, Lindbergh, Hitler--The Election Amid the Storm, by Susan Dunn.  You can't tell what Dunn's book is like; he only mentions it twice, though he uses the word "superb".  The review mostly summarizes the events of the time and relates them to Olson's book.

Another review describes Rendezvous with Destiny--How Franklin D Roosevelt and Five Extraordinary Men Took America into the War and into the World, by Michael Fullilove.  This focusses on Sumner Welles, Bill Donovan, Wendell Willkie, Harry Hopkins, and Averill Harriman, all of them in one way or another pushing Roosevelt's agenda.    Because they were interventionists, the book misses the passionate debate over isolationism vs intervention.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #96 on: August 02, 2013, 03:14:54 PM »
Yes after the war no one wanted their German Heritage to be made public - however, my memory until just before the war there were many well respected German communities and the German culture was strong in this country - from farmers/ranchers to craftsmen with most of the famous department stores owned by Germans and German Jews.

When i was little, before I was in school maybe '38 my grandmother received a letter from Hitler - probably a secretary but he signed it - asking her to come back to Germany that he re-instated the estate that was her mother's family estate. It was her mother who emmigrated just before our Civil War when Germany was going through an upheaval with promises of one type of government that was quickly changed back to what was. Do not have all the details but the estate was destroyed and as a young women alone she sailed for America. There was a big family discussion in the kitchen and grandma was pretty adiment that she was not going back however, my one Uncle thought it was a good idea - thank god for Grandma Katie's stubborn ways. And as a family that become a constant mantra It was the following year in '39 that lots happened that alerted us to how bad it was in Germany and how bad it was becoming, to be German in America.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

HaroldArnold

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #97 on: August 02, 2013, 05:00:21 PM »
Regarding discrimination against local Germans in San Antonio Texas I want to say it did not happen here in San Antonio either during WW I or WWII based on family tradition or written preserved archives
http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hharnold/

This is probably the result of strong, long lasting family ties, and a large local German population with whom they socialized and which was probably the largest of the non-Hispanic populations.   I wish I could be as positive on their record regarding other ethnic populations

Jonathan

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #98 on: August 02, 2013, 05:32:34 PM »
How challenging, trying to reply to all the interesting posts. I do believe we have a tiger by the tail with this book.

Thanks, Barbara, for posting. Your views, your experience, and your information, add a lot to the discussion. And that goes for the posts of everyone who is participating.

The prospect of war aroused such strong feelings. And they could be and were so different for everyone. Hence, as Pat points out: 'the passionate debate', which Olson captures so well in her book. Thanks, Pat, for the references to several other books on the subject. I've had a look at the Dunn book. It is great. Wendell Willkie was a registered Democrat as late as 1939! That's a good indication of the turmoil in American politics.

I've looked at some other books on the subject. They all mention Lindbergh, with at least a passing reference or two. So why does Olson put him at center stage? Ella asks some good questions on that. Why would anyone be interested in his opinions? Why would the president be alarmed by Lindbergh's particpation in the debate? Why would the British agents in New York spread mean rumors about him? The plot thickens.

I stumbled across Philip Roth's book, The Plot Against America, dealing with this same topic under discussion from a Jewish point of view. Where could he have got the idea that the Lindbergh kidnapping was a Nazi plot? Rather far out. Now I find out it was the doing of those British agents in New York, trying to discredit Lindbergh! There is always some reality behing every fiction, it seems.

PatH

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #99 on: August 02, 2013, 06:37:57 PM »
Harold, you shouldn't post those links to your family when I'm busy. ;)  Now I want to follow up every trail, look at every picture, never mind that I don't know any of them.

Jonathan, the NYT review says "Probably no historical account can match the skill with which Philip Roth evokes this isolationist witches' brew in The Plot against America."  I may have to look at that book; I didn't pay any attention to it when it came out.  

PatH

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #100 on: August 02, 2013, 07:16:39 PM »
I recently read another alternative history book relevant to this bit of history: Jo Walton's Farthing.  It starts out as a standard British country house murder mystery, but taking place in an alternative world in which Churchill was ousted in 1941, and England negotiated peace with Hitler.  Germany now controls the rest of Europe, and anti-semitism is rampant.

At first you wonder, why the alternative universe, but it soon becomes only too clear.  The mystery is solved, but the problems of some of the characters will have to be settled in the sequels.  Evidently in the sequels it's made clear that the US failure to aid Britain was crucial, and also Lindbergh has become president of the US.  The two sequels seem to be both mysteries and "try to save the world" fantasies.

PatH

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #101 on: August 02, 2013, 08:00:01 PM »
Good grief.  I finally got around to reading Barb's link If I Were Kaiser.  Just about every sentence calls for rebuttal.  This was in 1912, before WWI.

What about later? What about Mein Kampf?

A spy story I liked had one character saying Why are people surprised at what Hitler does?  Why don't they just read Mein Kampf?  He spells it all out there.

Is this true?  It was published in 1925, so that would be a clear warning.  I haven't ever tried to read it, it's apparently pretty unreadable, irrational and raving.  Does anyone know what he says in the book, whether he gives a good idea of what he intended?

JoanP

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #102 on: August 02, 2013, 09:49:36 PM »
I'd like to hear from someone who has read it too, Pat - I found it on line - don't know why that surprised me, but it did.  I guess I thought it had been banned or something.
I'm wondering if Lindbergh ever picked up a copy when visiting Germany.
You can read through the whle thing here - if so inclined:
Mein Kampf.

This really helps - hearing from those of you who have memories of the days before we went to war - before we believed we'd ever get involved in another world war in Europe again - after the first one.  I find it hard to believe that there were people who wanted us to go over, though I can understand wanting to send destroyers and arms to Britain so she could defend herself.

My heart goes out to Anne Morrow - she must have been devastated when her firstborn was murdered, yet she carried on, writing books and supporting her husband's positions.  I was somewhat reassured to hear that the baby may not have been murdered in cold blood - not that it mattered much in the long run.  On the NOVA report last week, investigators concluded that the baby's skull injuries indicated  that he was dropped by the kidnappers as he was carried down the ladder out of the house.  

I need to go back and look at recent links posted today.  The Internet is such an amazing contributor to this discussion - though not as amazing as your memories.

ps Pat.loved the alternative scenario - President Lindbergh.  What an idea!

BarbStAubrey

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #103 on: August 02, 2013, 10:02:46 PM »
Shoot I do not know where to post this but PatH asked about how folks were not more familiar with Mein Kampf or If I Were The Kaiser in the non-fiction discussion where I shared my thoughts and see a similar post from Pat here - so again  repeat -

Think what it was like in the twenties - first, in the late nineteenth century roughly half of all 5- to 19-year-olds were enrolled in school. In the first 30 years of the twentieth century the blacks attending school stayed at the same percentage but not only did birth rate fall for whites but their attending school only increased to 51% - only 5% were college educated.

At the time Germany has less literacy than the US - there was a craftsmenship program where boys from the age of as early as 8 but most at age 12 left home and spent 2 year periods living with a master craftsmen and then starting at 16 you roamed the countryside seeking employment that included board. Those from noble families were educated and there was a large Bourgeois in trade who were mostly Jewish.

People were pretty much only concerned about what was happening within their national boarders - if you saw the movie "Red" that recently was shown again on TV you can see the effort that went into a movement and the politics of the ruthless - Hitler moved in on a nation reeling and blamed for WWI experiencing incomprehensible inflation - the rest of the western literate world was in Jazz Clubs with the likes of F. Scott Fitzgerald.

And so who would be reading Mein Kampf - probably only those who were thinking as Hitler's party was thinking - and remember the Jews were the butt of all that was wrong for generations and as much a "problem" as Blacks were here during this time in history. They had been good trades people not being allowed to own land leaving no room for a rising middle class among other Germans.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #104 on: August 02, 2013, 10:07:55 PM »
and again a second post

I am thinking that like us - we are pretty much an educated curious lot - and yet, I doubt many of us read or was familiar with If I were the Kaiser - I shared it only to help us understand the plan for what happened during WWII was not new made up by Hitler - the plan included in If I were The Kaiser was the thinking among the leaders of Germany for a long time.

To them they were trying to unify Germany and to bring back to Germany all those who emigrated elsewhere. They needed more land to accommodate the returning Germans and they likened themselves to early times after Charlemagne when Europe was broken into three sections for each son and the land that is essentially Germany now was one parcel - that is one of the Reich's -

Remember the Nazis were saying they were the Third Reich - the time of Charlemagne was the first and there is a dispute which was the 2nd Reich. Some say when Otto in the 10th century gathered all and became the first Emperor and others say it was when Bismark unified Germany in the nineteenth century - all to say the 3rd Reich was to be a united Germany that included Prussia, the Slavic nations and the area along the Rhine including what is Alsace-Lorraine. Any area that did NOT have a direct relationship to Rome but to the Goths and the other tribes north of Rome that threatened Rome and that Charlemagne had included in his Holy Roman Empire.  

The rest of Europe never wanted to see a united Germany especially they were afraid of Prussia that was a powerhouse in ability, raw material and could easily overtake all of Europe

Here is a copy of Mein Kampf - a literate work not sounding like written by a crazy man but worked out in logic based in different conclusions than our own experience or view of Germany's experience - reading it in light of the holocaust looking for an explanation for that madness is really hard to find in Mein Kampf - http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Ella Gibbons

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #105 on: August 03, 2013, 08:08:26 AM »
"People were pretty much only concerned about what was happening within their national boarders "   - Barbara thank you for your posts.

But there were concerned people in America as they watched Hitler sweep across Europe.   Robert Sherwood, the playwright, for one.  He had fought in WWI and, undoubtedly, came out of that conflict with PTSD.  Wasn't his story fascinating!  Had you ever heard of his play ABE LINCOLN IN ILLINOIS?   How clever!  "the finest piece of propaganda ever to come into the theater."

Before we go further, we should discuss the NEUTRALITY ACTS passed by Congress in the mid-1930's and the problems they caused FDR and his administration. (pg. 32-34)  

Did they make a difference to what was going on in Europe?

Ella Gibbons

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #106 on: August 03, 2013, 08:14:49 AM »
Here is an interesting site explaining the Neutrality Acts.  Simply put, easy to read. 

http://history.state.gov/milestones/1921-1936/Neutrality_acts

Ella Gibbons

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #107 on: August 03, 2013, 08:37:22 AM »
And as one of you said, (was it JOANP) the Internet is a great tool in discussing history.  Here it Hitler's Threat and FDR's dilemma:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/bonus-video/presidents-policing-fdr/

(am in a dreadful hurry this morning, but I did skim all your posts, so interesting, thank you!)

HaroldArnold

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #108 on: August 03, 2013, 10:41:32 AM »
The neutrality acts had a good purpose ,ie, keeping the U.S. out of purely European wars.  The problem in 1939 and 40 was that WWII from its inception was not a purely European War.  Because of  Hitler's basic ruling Nazi philosophy, we had a definite interest in its outcome.  Granted that in 1939 and 40 this fact had not yet become clear, but we will see in the next several weeks how in 1941, we as a nation came to see the real nature of our situation.  

Jonathan

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #109 on: August 03, 2013, 02:48:34 PM »
Harold, what a marvellous set of photographs. And an interesting piece of family history. You mentioned a military engagement in the Pacific, preceding the Midway naval battle. Where could I find more information on the earlier engagement? I remember it vaguely.

JoanP asks: 'I'm wondering if Lindbergh ever picked up a copy (of Mein Kampf) when visiting Germany.'

I don't think so. FDR, in a moment of frustration and anger, was heard saying 'I am convinced Lindbergh is a Nazi.' (Quoted in Goodwin's No Ordinary Time).

Where's the evidence? Our book talks only of Lindbergh's impressions of German technology and military capabilities. His travels in Germany were mainly information missions, which he later shared with American and British military and civil leaders. Of course he may have been impressed by the German manner of controlling the press. I don't think he was ever introduced to Hitler.

Thanks, Pat, for the info about a second book (fiction of course) that features Lindbergh as President. Neither did I pay any attention to the Roth book when it came out. I came across it a few weeks ago while book shopping and saw how apropos it was.

And now for a look at the Neutrality Acts. Did Congress see a gleam in the president's eyes?


JoanP

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #110 on: August 03, 2013, 06:52:26 PM »
So what were Lindbergh's aspirations, once he accomplished his solo flight and made a name for himself in aviation? He's clearly not happy with the public's adulation.  He even left the country until the coming war forced him to return.  

He was an isolationist...wanted to avoid getting into war, I understand that.  But what did he want?  Clearly he admired Germany...though I see nothing about how he felt about the Jews and their treatment.  Did he really want Britain and Germany to negotiate some sort of peace?  What exactly would that be like?

Once home, Lindbergh doesn't really have a role, does he?  A job, a position?  He's a thorn in Roosevelt's side on the war issue, but he's not after political power - or is he?

JoanP

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #111 on: August 03, 2013, 07:06:15 PM »
Also,  I feel I'm getting to know FDR - better than I did before reading this.    He seems so weary of being President. I'm not sure why he decided to run for a third term, are you?  What is the  law on that?  I'm sure there must be one.  When was it passed?
Clearly he doesn't want to get the country involved in another war...so why does he want to run again and be in a position to have to make these decisions?  What is his interest in the Neutrality Act?

Ella Gibbons

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #112 on: August 03, 2013, 08:20:01 PM »
A gleam, JONATHAN, in FDR's eye?  Thunder and ligtening in those eyes; he tried desperately to get those Neutrality Acts repealed; they prevented him from aiding Great Britain in her fight against Hitler.  He was shrewd enough, clever enough, to find a way around them by the Lend-lease program.

JOANP asks why FDR decided to run for the third term.  I think it was because he saw what was happening in Europe and believed we ought to either help or get involved although he stated in his inaugual speech, as I remember reading, that he would never send a boy to Europe to fight.  The Republicans, for the most part, were isolationists as I think most of the country was.  However, people believed in FDR, he had done so much for the country in the depression.

And, of course, all those programs in the depression era gave enormous power to the executive branch - and Congress has been fighting the office of the presidency ever since (personal opinion).  But I do think that our founding fathers set it all up this way - checks and balances - we are doomed to hear all about it, hahaha    Particularly, it seems in the present situation.

These parties, isolationists and the interventionists, are interesting to read about.  Don't they remind you somewhat of the tea party folk?  Do you remember any other parties formed similar and for what purpose?

Tomorrow let's delve into some of these personalities described in our book. 

Ella Gibbons

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #113 on: August 03, 2013, 08:31:50 PM »
And while we are discussing interventionism, what do you think of our present day intervention into all these countries' problems, the wars of the 20th century.  Vietnam, Bosnia, Persian Gulf, the Middle East.  What are we doing?  What is our aim? 

Did our intervention in Europe in two WW wars give us a sense of power, a belief that we could solve all the problems in the world? 

BarbStAubrey

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #114 on: August 03, 2013, 09:32:23 PM »
My take is there was and is a different aim for each intervention - not wanting to take us too far afield from the book so simplistic one liners sharing my thoughts

Vietnam, We were afraid of the spread of Communism and the balance of power during the Cold War

Bosnia, I think was pure humanitarian with the UN leading the show

Persian Gulf, we want to secure the safety of the oil and American oil business in the Gulf and more recently American Business wanted to control retrieving for profit the oil and needed the troops for protection and the hoped for take over of the oil fields.

Middle East. Bottom line I think we are assuring the protection of Israel surrounded by Arab states and for a long time the only democracy in that part of the world.

Afghanistan. the movie Charlies Wilson's War explained that as we 'rescued' Afghanistan from the Russians and become caught up in their national religious war with the far right Islamist, the Taliban.  

My take on Lindbergh is, he was catapulted into fame and glory, become exceedingly wealthy and ran with the business elite when he was at home in his mansion. He is smart and most likely listened to the table talk in the US and in England and peaceful coexistence made more sense -

There were others who thought peace could be negotiated with Hitler, like Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain so, he was in good company. Could be dead wrong but I would think feeling the need to use his status and show something for himself aiding his country he set his hat on a vision that many of the best minds could not see the danger and he went for it.

We have the benefit of hindsight so it is too easy for us to pass judgement after the facts were made clear. Churchill comes out as a visionary and yet, he may have only used his temperament to go after a very old nemesis, Germany. Plus, he did not want the world to know, especially all the English territories, just how weak a nation they had become and so he stood tall and persuaded, if not manipulated the help he needed to keep Britain as 'the' vital power of the world - he was not going to pass that baton to France much less Germany and so he befriended the naive to ancient hates, the Americans.  
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

HaroldArnold

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #115 on: August 03, 2013, 10:41:48 PM »
Jonathan regarding the May 1942 naval battle that I mentioned yesterday google Battle of the Coral Sea for information.  And thank you for your comment on the family history site.  they are from an interesting set of family photos in an album taken between 1908 and 1918. 

JoanK

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #116 on: August 04, 2013, 12:03:42 AM »
JoanP "Clearly he admired Germany...though I see nothing about how he felt about the Jews and their treatment."

There is a statement that he didn't seem all perturbed by Krystalnacht: a horrible time when many Jews were killed or had their businesses destroyed,

The Nova show emphasized more than the book has L's connection to the Eugenics Movement. That was a horrible movement that, by L's time, had already, in the name of improving the race, been responsible for thousands of forced sterilizations, especially of Blacks in the South and Asian immigrants in the West. 

HaroldArnold

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #117 on: August 04, 2013, 12:35:43 PM »
Interesting we see in Chapter 5 that the famous Einstein letter to Roosevelt was sent to Lindbergh with a request that he deliver it to F.D.R.  Lindbergh, delayed forwarding the letter but finally forwarded  the letter as requested.  When Roosevelt received it he began the process that led to the development of the atom bomb.           

JoanP

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #118 on: August 04, 2013, 01:20:05 PM »
I was interested in learning more about FDR's third term - and the fact that  in the 1944 election during World War II,  he won a fourth term but suffered a cerebral hemorrhage and died in office the following year.

"Near the end of the 1944 campaign, Republican nominee Thomas E. Dewey, the governor of New York, announced support of an amendment that would limit future presidents to two terms. According to Dewey, "Four terms, or sixteen years, is the most dangerous threat to our freedom ever proposed."[2]
The Twenty-second Amendment of the United States Constitution sets a term limit for election to the office of President of the United States. Congress passed the amendment on March 21, 1947. It was ratified by the requisite number of states on February 27, 1951"


JoanP

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Re: THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online
« Reply #119 on: August 04, 2013, 02:03:20 PM »
I reread the chapter dealing with Lindbergh's return from his visit to Germany, JoanK.   "After Kristallnacht there were strong anti-German feelings  in the US."  Apparently Lindbergh's lack of empathy, lack of interest in the moral question were not lost on the American public - former great fans of his.  Whenever his face appeared on the screen in movie theaters, the audience would hiss.

Don't you wonder how Anne felt about this?  We're told that she was shaken - and believed the attacks made on her husband were unfair.
When he reported that Europe was on the verge of war, he  urged the need for neutrality - but his views weren't really necessary at this time.    How aware was the US of the plight of the Jews?  No matter what they knew - Most Americans did not want to get involved in another war.  (Who would?)
 Was this the end of Lindbergh's popularity in the US?

 Harold, what year was that?  What year was the Atomic Bomb developed?  After we decided to get into the War?  Or was it being developed to be "lent" to Britain to defend herself?