Those Angry Days by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online

[Ella Gibbons]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

August Book Club Online

THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson
Roosevelt, Lindbergh, and America’s Fight Over World War II, 1939-1941   

".............the definitive account of the debate over American intervention in World War II—a bitter, sometimes violent clash of personalities and ideas that divided the nation and ultimately determined the fate of the free world.   - The New York Times “In Those Angry Days, journalist-turned-historian Lynne Olson captures [the] period in a fast-moving, highly readable narrative punctuated by high drama. It’s . . . popular history at its most riveting, detailing what the author rightfully characterizes as ‘a brutal, no-holds-barred battle for the soul of the nation.’ It is sure to captivate readers seeking a deeper understanding of how public opinion gradually shifted as America moved from bystander to combatant in the war to preserve democracy.”—Associated Press

DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:
August 1-7	Chapters 1-7
August 8-14	Chapters 8-14
August 15-21	Chapters 15-21
August 22-28	Chapters 22-28

Discussion Leaders:  Ella  & Harold

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BARBARA, you are angry that the media lies to the public, influences the public.  How do we know what influences the public?  Polls?  

The vast PUBLIC -  we do know, from reading books such as these, how our president made the decisions he did, how influences came to bear, but actually, in my opinion, is was Pearl Harbor that made FDR move and move quickly.  Actions speak louder than words or print or TV.

HOW DO WE KNOW WHAT INFLUENCES THE PUBLIC TODAY?

[Ella Gibbons]

JONATHAN, I hope your computer is working now, we have missed you We've read pages on this Lord Lothian, British Ambassador -  "Americans lliked Lothian, and he returned the favor.  Are you familiar with him?

There is a very strong attachment between America and England, difficult to understand considering we fought a war and won.  I've often thought they must heave a great sigh to  have lost this great land of ours!

But they had an empire - to what extent did their vast resources in the empire come to their aid at this time?

[PatH]

Ella, thanks for reminding me of Alice Roosevelt Longworth.  She was a longtime prominent figure on the social scene here, regarded as by far the most amusing person around.

This Wikipedia article has some examples of her wit, mostly at the end of the last section, "Later Life".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Roosevelt_Longworth

[PatH]

Bellamarie, I do read your opinions, and though I'm not sure I've answered you directly, some of my posts have addressed issues you have raised.

[HaroldArnold]

Regarding the draft during the first year after its approval a lot of numbers must have been drawn considering the size increase of the army by Dec 1941 when War was declared.  As I remember there was an increase of some 1,250,000 during this period..  Of course some of these were volunteers who joined both before and after the passage of the Draft Law.  In 1944 my mother encouraged me to join the navy before my 18th birthday.  I needed no persuasion. as most of my friends were in the Navy and I much preferred the idea of the armored hull of a navy ship to an Army fox hole,my billet had I waited until I was 18.  As It was I arrived at  the Pacific front at just the right time to avoid assignment to a ship involved in the invasion of Japan.  So my navy assignment was back in the other direction on Ulithie and Guam.

Regarding the Willkie 1940 election campaign. I remember it from my reading as a continuing serious campaign for the office.  I may have missed some comment to the contrary in our book  I do not have a print copy of book marked  with margin notes.  I certainly have many highlighted notes on my Nook digital book, but  it looks like I may have missed some key points in my post yesterday.

[JoanP]

So much information in the book - generating so many ideas from our posters here.  It's nearly impossible to respond to everyone's response to the book.  We are all piecing together the story - what we remember from the past, or what we've heard about - and so much new information we're learning about for the first time.  Our reactions are going to be different - depending on where we're coming from.

PatH - I sit stunned before my computer screen, listening to Wendell Wilkie.  Isn't technology amazing?  I got goosebumps, realizing that my parents were listening to this man, perhaps seeing the same newsreel in the movie theater.  I can understand his appeal.  He's a relief from the politicians...he's believable.  Harold mentioned yesterday that he had been  the CEO of a large eastern utility corporation that been absorbed by the  New Deal in the TVA project.  The people saw him as "a little average everyday man who stood up for his rights."  That's what's important, isn't it - how the people saw him?   They were the voters.  I  think he would have won - but for Hitler.  There wasn't time to fill him in on all that FDR knew.

So that what it comes down to?  Who do you like?  Who can you trust? But how do you decide who you like and trust?  We've seemed to conclude that you can't trust the media.
 
Ella asked an important question -

WHAT INFLUENCES THE PUBLIC TODAY?

I hate to say this...but it's the media, isn't it?  Where do you get your news?  Fox?  MSNBC?  That's what forms your opinion, is it not?

[PatH]

For most of us, it's got to be the media in one form or another, since we don't have access to much first-hand information.  I get mine from The Washington Post and The New York Times, both of them less than pure in this book.  But I try to be suspicious, and to read what people I don't agree with are saying too, and to draw my own conclusions as best I can.

[HaroldArnold]

Today most of my News exposure comes from the two major Business Channels, Fox Business and CNBC.   I rarely watch local news programs.  I think that much of my news exposure (particularly local news) comes from daily dinner conversation with other Residents here at this senior's Independent Living Apartment.  Also their is an excellent weekly Texas State news program on Saturday mornings that I general hear no local NPR radio.

Compared to many of you I might appear under informed but I think I do get a pretty good cross section of emerging National and International news from a nearly every day exposure to the two business Channels.

Question to all:  do you think I put too much emphasis on my personal experience or memory in my posts on this discussion board???  
  

[BarbStAubrey]

Doing great Harold - your experiences make this story - otherwise it reminds me of a Hollywood expose with as Bellamarie calls it 'name dropping'.

Must run downtown before the late afternoon traffic makes that trip impossible and when I return I have bunches and bunches - my reaction to Churchill had me by the tail where as similar tactics used by folks in the US to me were not as offensive.

What makes this so difficult as an RE Broker everyother year we take an oath preceeded by classes that "teach integrity because a person with integrity will behave in an ethical manner.

According to Webster's Dictionary, ethics is "the doctrines of morality or social manners; the science of moral philosophy which teaches men their duty and the reasons for it.  It is a system of moral principles, a system of rules for regulating the actions and manners of men in society."  Integrity is who you are; it comprehends the whole moral character and is the entire unimpaired state of anything"

To realize that many folks see RE agents as scum and here we have more controls to assure the public of our moral integrity where as we vote in leaders who seem to have the integrity of a killer whale for the ends they see as the solution.

I do agree with you Harold that Roosevelt learned his lesson - I think when he was first in office we needed the leadership of an Imperial President since the nation was in the pits - but his miscalculation of fixing the Supreme Court gave him his comeuppance and since he seems to want more than 80% of the public and the Congress behind him - in fact he is willing to hold out for 100% - drives those in a hurry crazy but in the long run we are united behind whatever the effort.

OK gotta run - back later.
{PS} I get most news from the NewsHour on PBS and from the Charlie Rose show with his indepth interviews.

[bellamarie]

PatH.....I think we all post drawing from our personal experiences, and memory.  That's why it's so very interesting and exciting to read the posts.  You all just amaze me, I truly enjoy our discussions.

To answer where do I get my news, on a daily basis I wake up to my local radio station and catch a few minutes before getting out of bed, then  I begin my breakfast watching our local news channel CBS 11, and some of ABC, Good morning America. Throughout the day I browse the internet and click many different sites that provides breaking news, and updates.  At 5:00 I turn on The Five on Fox, and at 8:00 p.m.  I tape Bill O Reiley, because he is an Independent like me, and is not afraid to call out either party, politician or go after public influential people who are not doing their job.  At 11:00 p.m it's my local CBS, ABC or NBC, which ever does not matter.  On Sunday morning I generally like to catch ABC George Stephanopolis on The Round Table, I think it's called that.  I do NOT watch any MSNBC because they are too liberal and one sided for me.  I want news stations that are willing to cover the news, rather shove their personal opinions at me.

Journalism 101 taught the basic....Who, What, When, Where, How and Why.  Not sure that is being taught any more by the way many of these reporters are reporting.   

I am a political junkie, so I rely on as many sources possible to try to help me form an informed opinion. I don't have any newspapers delivered to my home, I go on line to read them.  I also have a Facebook and Twitter account which my friends from all over the country post newsworthy links.

Ciao for now~

[PatH]

Harold, if anything you don't put enough emphasis on your personal experience.  It adds a lot to this discussion.

[Jonathan]

Keep it up. What a moving experience, reading the many posts since my computer let me down a few days ago. It would be strange if this book did not bring out strong reactions, including some anger. Nevertheless, I find the book inspiring. The way Olson has pieced the story together (as JoanP expressed it) it's a great display of democracy in action, with so many citizens involving themselves in the process. Individuals, committees, clubs, letter writing, and on and on.

I'm happy to see Charles Lindbergh being rehabilitated. I don't see him as a loner. After he achieved celebrity status he was associating with the movers and shakers of the world.

Could the president have been conniving with the people running the 'propaganda machine'? Did I read that he was kept informed of the effort to influence public opinion? Hoover knew what was going on. We do know the story has a happy ending.

Ella, of course England was sorry to see her Empire shrink as the Colonies broke away. For a few more years she worried them on the northern border, but eventually established friendly relations. In the meantime she created a new Empire, even bigger, in India and Africa. Those amazing Brits.

And what an amazing president. Isn't he difficult to follow? Historians still aren't agreed on what he was up to.

[BarbStAubrey]

OK I have dipped into several books to try and make heads and tails of this tale - Where to start...

Amazon samples for your kindle are often very very generous. The sample includes several chapters - a couple of hours of reading - That was my start - been fascinated with the work of Julius Evola and curious about the work of Francis Parker Yockey

Starting with Yockey - a political thinker imprisoned in 1960 where he was found dead - hints of murder - His first big book was Imperium: The Philosophy of History and Politics - To clarify and further this thesis he wrote - The Enemy Of Europe/The Enemy of Our Enemies - The book was lost and a German copy was recently translated - He talks about the economic and cultural winners and losers after the World Wars.

He says the Americans were the winners after WWI but we did not know what to do with the power and let it slip - then he says, using his first hand experience having lived for several decades in American - since what he calls the revolution of 1933 - (I guess he means Roosevelt's initiatives) - we have lost our idealism etc as we adapted an attitude of  brotherhood, tolerating all, that is alien to a superior position dominated by stock from Cultural European soil keeping America a European Colony. The game plan is the heroic ethic 'is' the delivery of Europe to its mighty destiny. He suggests ways that American can become a part of this heroic ethic since we adopted toleration for all.

This is the attitude of Cultural European - an elitism, that I read into the NY based inner clubs for wealthy easterners. Their brotherhood is attending the 'right' schools. However, regardless their superior attitudes, rife through is their initiatives, which makes sense in light of how Yockey opens the first chapter - A great sentence that for me was enlightening - "All wars in some way are related to Politics, and the aim of Politics is to obtain power."

This book is like political theater with bit players creating 'bring-the-house-down' parts - and more, Olson brings out how folks with their agenda will attach themselves to who ever has the limelight, not staying on message but using their 5 minutes of light to alter an organization and make public their agenda.  

So if the aim of Politics is to obtain power then jockeying for power among the powerful is part of the pre-war game.

[BarbStAubrey]

Next I had a series of questions about Churchill - did he realize we squandered our power after WWI and therefore, we were naive making us an easy target to get what he could not influence his own people to do?

I know around the edges about Churchill but really did not know how he ticked - I forgot he was half American and wrote books about America - the one about the West receiving acclaim - I knew his mother, the American, slept with the King and his childhood was troubled but how did he come to think he could willy nilly get Roosevelt to fight his war and where was Britain before the war during the late 30s when Hitler was changing before our eyes from the opportunist with a talent for propaganda and speech, pushing German pride and making Germans capable of defending themselves against a French-imposed punitive peace into, a Messiah, marching on German historical territory, purifying the population to a fantasy race he called Aryan and focusing on eliminating the Jews as the historical cause of all European misery.

We know Chamberlain was attempting peaceful co-existence but what was Churchill doing - were his hands tied until he was Prime Minster - was that his only bully pulpit - what was going on in the shipyards and in factories regardless of the government - why was Churchill, the great orator not pumping up preparation among those in business. What was going on in Britain during the 1930s.

Started with Meacham's book Franklin and Winston - not much help - he showed them joined at the hip and shows the differences in their personalities but no mention of Roosevelt even aware of the BSC - I cannot imagine, except to keep a good face knowing this so called friend was hiding a group in your attic and basement to sway the household to your ends.

But I hit pay-dirt with The Last Lion: Winston Spencer Churchill, Alone 1932-1940 Churchill was rendered powerless during and after WWI having (as First Lord of the Admiralty) War Cabinet backing to go after a weak Turkey taking the Dardanelles giving Russia a supply route and a plan to break the stalemate with Germany. The captain of the ship froze and the campaign was a disastrous loss. Churchill was blamed - he went off to fight in France and came home to write books as his means of income. He had no influence in Parliament - no one would listen to him.

He did have a good friend in Frederick Lindemann who calculated the raw material on hand in Britain and the number of ships, tanks etc.

I've ordered The Last Lion: but only this volume - it is a three or four volume set. The book is a joy to read. Probably as many important figures of the time mentioned but not in the rat tat tat over the top writing style used by Olson. The chapters offered as a sample on the Kindle, stop before Churchill sets his cap on America - I am anxious to pick up the story when the book is delivered. (Got a used copy covered by Prime)

Then my second peg fits my questions about what in the world was freezing Britain into non-action.  

[BarbStAubrey]

Lo and Behold Lynne Olson wrote other books about this period and downloaded the sample to Troublesome Young Men - Its more about how Parliament works - how everyone knows everyone since childhood having attended the same Public (we call them private) schools ending up in either Oxford or Cambridge - That like school days, loyalty to the leader is sacricent. One member seems to act the whip not too unlike politics in Congress - the difference, members of Parliament have over their head if they rebel no Knighthood or other titles that can mean the end of their career.

So what Chamberlain wants Chamberlain gets except in 1940 with Dunkirk happening he wanted to take off for the usual summer recess and go fishing in Scotland. A young man from the district adjacent to his, Cartland - yes, the son of Barbara Cartland the bodice ripping novelist - passionately disagrees which leads to Churchill becoming Prime Minister. However, I did not buy the book to learn much more than Cartland rocked the boat and how they all play being loyal to the leader.

I am assuming the business elite similar to the Century Club group in the US must also have attended these same schools and they too would be loyal to Chamberlain

OK Jonathan help - I know you are Canadian but I bet there are folks you can quiz - why did the Ship Builders, Bankers and Arms Factory owners not start to stock pile - why were they leaving the Brits so vulnerable - why did they not band together to influence their reps in the House of Commons?

One other affect in the stew - evidently a revolution of country folks suffering in 1932 from poverty, more severe sounding than the US, were stopped on their rampage descending on London and their influence comes into play again before Britain is officially at war.

Now this book is beginning to make sense to me - I could buy the propaganda from the two sides of the argument among those in the US but a foreign nation influencing and so secretly - and the pomposity of someone saying they would get this nation in was rankling - had to find out what this was all about - I see now Lynne Olson likes to drop bombs without sharing the background that might make her bomb into a lesser explosion.

[bellamarie]

BarbStAubrey," Lo and Behold Lynne Olson wrote other books about this period and downloaded the sample to Troublesome Young Men - Its more about how Parliament works - how everyone knows everyone since childhood having attended the same Public (we call them private) schools ending up in either Oxford or Cambridge - That like school days, loyalty to the leader is sacricent. One member seems to act the whip not too unlike politics in Congress - the difference, members of Parliament have over their head if they rebel no Knighthood or other titles that can mean the end of their career. "

Nothing changes....no matter what country we are speaking of, these leaders, presidents and kings are groomed at birth.  The families would get no where if they did not know all the "right" people, "right" schools ( almost always private), and the "right" ways to disregard the law, manipulate their people and have the media behind them.

I have always felt this to be true:
BarbStAubrey, "All wars in some way are related to Politics, and the aim of Politics is to obtain power."

Now this book is beginning to make sense to me - I could buy the propaganda from the two sides of the argument among those in the US but a foreign nation influencing and so secretly - and the pomposity of someone saying they would get this nation in was rankling - had to find out what this was all about - I see now Lynne Olson likes to drop bombs without sharing the background that might make her bomb into a lesser explosion."

Indeed she has been revealing and dropping bombs!!!  

I found this link today and thought it interesting since we are talking about presidents/power and dropping bombs....  

http://watchdogwire.com/florida/2013/08/13/black-american-citizens-file-articles-of-impeachment-against-obama/

When do presidents/leaders go too far, causing harm to their own people and relationships around the world?  

Off to read this week's chapters.
Ciao for now~

[PatH]

We discussed Troublesome Young Men here.  It's a very good book, though, as in this one, there's a large cast to keep straight.

I'll be traveling for the next six days, but have my book and my iPad with me, and will often be able to connect (I'm in an airport now) so will be able to keep up.

[Ella Gibbons]

Wonderful, BARBARA, this book seems to have inspired, or troubled, you to read on about this period of Britain/USA relationships.

We are now halfway through out book.  Have we learned or has our memories been jolted!  Mine has, so many names, I remember most of them, I was young, the possibility of war was in the news, we watched news films at the movies, talked among our friends and families, listened to the radio.

Before we go on, I want to take a moment to highlight the ears, eyes and legs of FDR, who as you all know was an invalid and could not travel.  Besides Eleanor, FDR sent this man on many missions to gather information for him, he was a trusted "behind the scenes" loyal aide to the man who ran it all through those troublesome times.

HARRY HOPKINS:



We all know that FDR was an invalid and I am forever amazed at his courage, determination to continue his political life after polio when his wealth, his mother, friends urged to stay at home in Hyde Park.  Unable to walk he was carried everywhere, and here at 84 years of age, I see my walker beckoning and find it somewhat humiliating, slowing me down.

[JoanP]

And what an amazing president. Isn't he difficult to follow? Historians still aren't agreed on what he was up to.  Jonathan

Oh yes, exactly my feeling, Jonathan!  I've spent the morning rereading Chapter 14 and  pouring over Barbara's posts (always amazed at your inquisitive mind, Barb) - We are the beneficiaries of your research.  One thing really made an impression as I was attempting to follow Roosevelt's motivations -

"All wars in some way are related to Politics, and the aim of Politics is to obtain power."

Does anyone here really think that the US went into war to gain power?  I would think that it was to defend our country, our borders.
Does anyone think that Roosevelt ran for a third term to obtain power?  As the election drew near, he named two strong Interventionists (and Republicans) - Stimson, Secretary of War and Knox, Secretary of Navy...as well as the supported the unpopular conscription bill.   That brought the mothers in huge numbers  (in their black dresses, white high heels  and gloves) to protest in DC.  These unpopular measures were quite daring right before an election, weren't they?  Does this sound like a man thirsting for power?

[JoanP]

Posting together this morning, Ella!  I'm trying to guess the name of the man on whom FDR relied - Grenville Clark? ...not sure.

You reminded me of FDR and his aversion to having his photograph taken in that wheelchair.  

 Some of his descendents at first objected to the plans to depict the president in a way that made it obvious he was sitting in a wheelchair, but most have since come to agree with the groups that support people with disabilities, who see Roosevelt as an inspiration.
 The original statue at the 3 ½-year-old memorial shows him covered with a cape in a straight chair with two tiny wheels behind, but the new statue vividly illustrates how the four-term president privately dealt with his disability.

[Ella Gibbons]

Hi JOANP, we were posting together.

And both thinking of FDR, one can't escape him in reading WWII books, he is the center of it all.  Why is it?  Well, all our presidents are at the center, but this man - 4 terms for one thing, death in office another, an invalid, but it is more than that.

What is it?

JOAN, WWII was certainly related to power - Hitler wanted power so that he could grab land for Germany, and he didn't want to stop once he started did he?  Was his goal to become Emperor of the world, where would he have stopped if not in England/USA?

FDR/America, was forced into war by Japan, of course, but before that the necessisty to stop Hitler in England before he set his sights on America was certainly an incentive to aid in any way the forces that were fighting the Axis power.

[Ella Gibbons]

I'm trying to remember, JOAN, if that was the statue we saw on the bus trip when we all were in Washington?   I think we saw the one with the cape, not this one.

In one of the books I have read about FDR - he gave all his inherited wealth to buy Warm Springs, GA and remodel it with cottages, etc. for children of polio.  Eleanor was supporting herself after his death with her writings - I believe the Hyde Park home was left to the National Trust, but am not sure when that happened.  Eleanor owned the cottage she had built on the grounds, but I have read that she had financial problems later in life.

[Ella Gibbons]

I'm looking over Chapter 15 - Chicago, the second city (is it still?) and New York's difference of opinion about the anti-Nazi film, Pastor Hall.   German Americans in Chicago were able to ban the film there and seven other similar films.

ONe has to smile at some of the antics, the quotes.  McCormick, owner of the Chicago Tribune (wasn't it recently sold?) stated that when easterners looked beyond Ohio they think they are Buffalo Bill.

But it wasn't too long ago in my life - around 1960-70 - that some friends decided to pick up and go west where the "future" was - California.  And that was true - Silicon Valley was just beginning.

HAROLD - you see, all of us have related our memories, our stories.  We can relate to each other better that way, get to know each other.

JONATHAN, happy to see you return to us.  What of these years in your life?  Were you in England, Canada, the USA?

At that time to Middle Easterners, New York City was a "Sodom and Gomorrah of sin" - is it still viewed that way by the middle east states of America?  It was in my youth in Ohio.

[JoanP]

Off to read the Chapter 15 and the next section, but first, before I forget...Ella, yes, you did see FDR in his wheelchair covered by a cape.  This was the original part of the memorial...and it is still there.  By the time President Clinton formally dedicated the site in 1997, the second statue showing the wheelchair was added to the entrance to the site.  You'll have to remind me when we were there.  Was it 2000?   If so, you would have seen both.

As I'm reading these pages, I don't think of  Roosevelt leading the country - from his wheelchair. And that was just how he wanted it.

[BarbStAubrey]

PatH have a good trip and hope the sun shines where you are going.

Yes, I was thinking of the group in Chicago when I remarked how folks like to take the limelight when it shines to advocate for their agenda. Once they moved the office to Chicago all sorts of agendas vied for attention.

JoanP I do think Roosevelt wanted to keep his power - when push came to shove he manipulated to obtain the nomination that lead to his third term. I do not think he saw himself as representing the most powerful nation in the world - I only think we all became conscious of that after WWII. I think power is as hard to walk away from as any addiction - in their minds no one can do it better than they can.

Oh yes, another book I downloaded for all of ninety nine cents is a book about the miss-translations of Mein Kamph - the only accurate translation evidently is the Ford translation - all the early translations, parts were omitted and words selected that made the book more offensive and disjointed than it was written - the author of this ebook explains the book and does agree there are times he sounds like he is going off the deep end however, he points out he had to write it that way as representing - oh I forgot the word he used - but essentially a very rabid group trying to do what it took to bring pride back to Germany after the Vienna Peace agreement through their platform - the word platform was not used but that is the best I can remember how it was phrased.

We have made this man the epitome of all that is evil, and yes, he became so, however i feel we are obscuring from ourselves who this man was and when he stepped deep into evil personified. I want to look at his motives before he obtained the power to be a demagogue - make him into flesh and blood that then he becomes a help in identifying aspects of leadership that point to the handwriting on the wall - I cannot believe he was an anomaly and to discover when a passion for good intentions becomes irrational.  And so another on my list - with all the books about Hitler Hitler: Beyond Evil and Tyranny by Stolfi seems like it may give me more of what I want to discover.  

[Jonathan]

Bewildering isn't it? Trying to make sense of human affairs. History is a maelstrom. And some get caught up in it, in curious ways. Hitler was trying to build a nation, and wouldn't/couldn't let anyone stand in his way. Naturally his career is a fascinating thing to study. He was a hero to some. But from the beginning there were those who wanted him out of the way, and many attempts on his life were either planned or carried out, unsuccessfully. The last picture of him shows a haggard, old man viewing the ruins of his Chancellory. He had such grand plans. To build monuments more impressive than the pyramids.

And yet, once his life was saved by a Jew. Hitler was at the peak of his power. He was parading himelf on the street, on horseback. He lost control of the horse which galloped careening down the avenue, with Hilter in extreme danger. A passing Jew threw himself in harm's way and brought the horse under control. A grateful Hitler asked, do you know who I am, I am the Fuehrer. Ask me for any favor, and it shall be yours. His bewildered rescuer finally muttered: don't tell anyone.

[JoanK]

JOAN: we were there in 2006.

ELLA " I see my walker beckoning and find it somewhat humiliating, slowing me down".

If that depresses you, here is an antidote. Watch this:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10102527792694996

[PatH]

JOAN: we were there in 2006

And I remember that statue.  It was nice to see the dog Falla again.

Roosevelt was right to hide his disability.  It's hard to remember how very different the attitude toward disabilities was back then.  They weren't accepted; people looked away, didn't talk abut them.  To be unable to walk would have been a tremendous disadvantage to a politician.  He would have been perceived as weak, maybe not quite a man.

[HaroldArnold]

Hitler's suicide must have been easy for Hitler that night in the bunker.  He must have been in a terrible depressed state of mind as the Russians stormed into Berlin.  The mutual suicide of Eva Braun is harder to understand.  Their relationship from the begining never seemed very intense.  Had she lived I doubt that she would heen subject to any serious war crimes charge.


Of the numerous Nurenburg defendents, Alfred Speer's 20 year sentenence seemed to many as letting him off eazy.  In the 1970's, I read all Alfred Speer's books and other  book on the trial.  The Russian and French judges wanted to hang him.   The Russians made sure that Speer served every day of his sentence, but Speer's survival gave him the chance after his 1967 release to write several books detail ing the day to day history of the third Reich. The history of WWII is completer because of these books.


Regarding FDR's disability, in the 1940's he fooled me.  It was post war when I realize how disabiling they were.  I am thinking of buying a walker.  True, one Alieve a daywill usually  get me throug the day without any real pain.   But I think I would walk more, if I had one, maybe even without the Alieve,  Also I would certainly welcome the chance to sit down when ever I wanted to at a museum or elsewhere.

[Ella Gibbons]

JOANK, I needed that, what a guy that Richie is, what a cute baby, and what wonderful parents he had.  I feel humbled!   I

Harold, I have a walker sitting in a corner, I use it occasionally.

What kind of treaties do we have for other nations that might be attacked by an enemy?   I know we have one with Israel; what others do we have?

Britain had a treaty with Poland, I believe, and that is why she declared war when it was invaded.  Didn't Hitler have any idea of the possibility of defeat?   All of Europe?  And then Britain, and then the USA? 

[HaroldArnold]

Ella true England had a treaty with England obligating them to go to Poland's aid if Invaded, but so did Checksolovica  the year earlier.  In 1939 even Chamberland felt they had to honor their commitment.

[BarbStAubrey]

Interesting - another new book about the secrets of Britain prior to WWII - no release date yet, although publication in September - Wealth of an Empire: The Treasure Shipments that Saved Britain and the World Looks like if not Chamberlain someone was making preparations.

The description...

Wealth of an Empire tells the dramatic true story of a top-secret mission that changed the course of World War II: Great Britain’s shipment of virtually its entire treasury across the treacherous waters of the North Atlantic to safety in the United States and Canada. Had the Germans captured or sunk the treasure-laden ships, the war could have been lost more than eighteen months before the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

The British government authorized this immensely risky and long-running operation not only because of the obvious danger that Germany’s rising militancy posed but also because of the isolationist sentiment that permeated both American society and Congress. America’s refusal to sell arms and other goods without payment up front left Britain little choice but to mount this daring operation.

Only a few banking, political, and military leaders were responsible for the complicated logistical and security procedures that were designed to safeguard the transfer of both gold and financial securities to North America. Although the special shipments were initially of relatively modest value, the strategic imperative changed dramatically when Germany threatened to invade Britain in the summer of 1940. Fearing that Britain’s wealth might fall into German hands, in an audacious yet visionary decision newly installed prime minister Winston Churchill authorized the evacuation of nearly all of Britain’s liquid assets.

Wealth of an Empire uses previously unused and unavailable original documents—including those from the British National Archives, the Bank of England’s archives, the Imperial War Museum, and the Bank of Canada’s archives—to shed new light on this underexplored aspect of Britain’s wartime history.

[PatH]

Bellamarie:
Journalism 101 taught the basic....Who, What, When, Where, How and Why.  Not sure that is being taught any more by the way many of these reporters are reporting.

They certainly don't practice it.  I bet you were also taught that at least a bit of each basic had to be in the first paragraph, and they NEVER do that now.  You have to work through three paragraphs of a human interest example before you know where the article is going.

Of course it's often the examples that drive the point home and make you remember it, but I still don't like it.

[Ella Gibbons]

Thanks, BARBARA, I remember reading in our book, I think, that FDR wanted to send aid to England but Congress insisted on the payment of such aid upfront;  until he got Congress to approve the lend lease act.  I don't think Olson related the facts of  any shipment carrying England's treasury here for safekeeping.  With Hitler surrounding her island  and bombing every night,  it would be sensible to ship it over in the probability of losing them  in an invasion.

Let us know what you learn from the various sources you are reading about Hitler.  I have never read a book about the man, know that he was from Austria, was a paper hanger, wanted to be an artist, loved his niece and brought her to Germany with him and he slowly started to form the black shirts was it?

[PatH]

Let us know what you learn from the various sources you are reading about Hitler.  I have never read a book about the man, know that he was from Austria, was a paper hanger, wanted to be an artist, loved his niece and brought her to Germany with him and he slowly started to form the black shirts was it?

Hitler did produce a number of paintings.  I've seen some.  In 1937 the nazis started a campaign against "degenerate art", and when they removed the paintings from museums, they mounted an exhibit of entartete kunst--degenerate art, along with one of approved art.

About 25 years ago someone recreated the exhibit, and I saw it when it came to DC.  They also had some of the approved stuff, including some of Hitler's.  I'm not an art expert, but they looked wishy-washy and conventional to me, but fitting Hitler's notion of morally uplifting.

[PatH]

http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/arts/artdegen.htm

Here's an interesting article about it, including who the artists were, and how many of them escaped.

[Ella Gibbons]

Thanks, PATH, for that.   I couldn't get to any of his art from there but hre are six of his paintings:  Although I don't why we should be interested in this fanatic.  How the German people could listen to his outbursts - his yelling - which were called speeches - is astounding to me.

http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AjIGgiVYSVByPGRPoPOxzLibvZx4?fr=yfp-t-302-1-s&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&p=hitler's%20artwork

I read an article about the silence of the German people after the war when they were asked (or knew) about the holocaust and the author of the article compared that  to the American people's silence when they heard about the thousands of people killed and injured in just two atomic bombs dropped on Japan.

JONATHAN, is that a true story about a Jew saving Hitler's life?  That's a good one, paraticularly the last line.

[Ella Gibbons]

When to be frank with the public?  Lord Lothian returned to the USA in late November, 1940 and told reporters at the airport - "Boys, Britain's broke.   It's your money we want."

How often does an ambassador speak that frankly to the public?  When criticized he said they might as well know it, but it sparked an "intense national debate."  Rightly so.

Let the public decide.

If the American public had been told about the atomic bomb, what do you think might have been the consequence?   Would we have dropped the atomic bombs on Japan?

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, first of all we had no idea the damage - remember how various tests for years later were carried out with soldiers placed 5 and 7 miles away, behind earth hills constructed like digging a foxhole and during the bombing they wore only goggles for protection and dignitaries in hastily constructed cement block bunkers again wearing only goggles - there was a documentary recently on the dropping of the first nuclear bomb on an Atoll and 16 scientists and soldiers with great difficulty had to be extracted from the island covered by cotton sheets.??!!??

And second the fear of fighting street to street in Japan loosing so many more of our young men was not palatable - anything to stop the deaths - the Kamikaze pilots proved to us the Japanese would fight to the death.

[JoanP]

I can't think  anything more horrible in history of the human race -  than the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagaski. It takes your breath away, contemplating the misery of those human beings...and the repercussions that went on for so many years afterwards.

Do you have any memories of that event?  How did you react?  I was 7 at the time.. with my grandmother.  My grandfather had recently died.  Gram lived with her young unmarried daughter.  Her other daughter, my mother, was not with us - she died that July, leaving the five of us.  My grandmother's youngest son, my uncle George was on his way to Japan. I remember his posing for pictures in his uniform.
I don't remember much about the bombs...but I do remember my grandmother in tears..., tears of joy - so HAPPY that the war was going to be over and my uncle was coming home.

Is that how most people reacted?  I've read and heard so much about how the bombs saved so many lives that would have been lost - because the Japanese were prepared to fight to the end.

An interesting queston Ella -

If the American public had been told about the atomic bomb, what do you think might have been the consequence?

 I think I'll have to agree with Barb.  Since no one really knew the magnitude of the destruction of these bombs...I'd say the public would have been all for bringing the war to an end, bringing the boys home -  no matter what the cost.  Am I wrong?  Ella, do we show the people the Hiroshima, 1945 documentary photographs before they answer the questions?

On another note, here's a link to Hiroshima today...