Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online

[bellamarie]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

October Book Club Online

Persuasion by Jane Austen

“My idea of good company...is the company of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation; that is what I call good company.' 'You are mistaken,' said he gently, 'that is not good company, that is the best.” ― Jane Austen, Persuasion Come join us for the best company as we read this classic. Here, Austen abandons the young heroines of her earlier works and presents us with a fully mature woman who fears that her chance of happiness has already passed. Austen finished Persuasion just before her death at age 41. It is her last book, and some feel her best.      Discussion schedule:        Oct 1-7--Chapters 1-6        Oct 8-12--Chapters 7-12        Oct 13-18--Chapters 13-18 (Book 2, 1-6)        Oct 19-?--Chapters 19-24 (Book 2, 7-12)

Some things to think about: Chapters 19-24 (Book 2, 7-12)

1. How does Austen maintain suspense in this last section? Did you feel it as you read? What did you feel?

2. Anne doesn't take action herself, but waits for others.  Why?

3. When Wentworth talks to Anne, she feels "agitation, pain, pleasure, a something between delight and misery." Have you ever felt like that? Under what circumstances?

4. Wentworth says "Bentwick is something more [than amiable, sweet-tempered and understanding]. He is a clever man, a reading man." But Charles says "His reading has done him no harm, for he has fought as well as read."Are we "something more" because we are reading people? Does it do us harm?

5. Why doesn't Mrs. Smith tell Anne what she knows at once?  Is this realistic?

6. [Women] "certainly do not forget you [men] as easily as you forget us. It is, perhaps, our fate rather than our merit." Do you agree?

7. In none of Austen's books does she write dialog declaring love. Why do you think this is? What did you think of the device Austen uses instead?

8. Is Anne too good to be true?
 

DLs:   PatH & JoanK  

PatH., What wonderful knowledge you provide about the war. "After this, there will be no major wars for some time, so Wentworth will be able to settle down.  JA couldn't predict this; England had been at war most of the time for her whole life.  But she implies a long happy life for her heroine."

It's nice to know, Anne and Captain Wentworth would not have to deal with long separations, after being apart for 8 yrs.

JoanK., How incredible, you would find the info on Jane Austen ordering her lid from Anning.  I watched the video of TC, today and enjoyed watching her find the animal vertebrae on the beach.  Can't wait to begin Remarkable Creatures.

Barb, the link I posted above shows many of the characters in their fashions.  You may find satisfaction, in jogging your memory looking at them.  

I loved this section of Anne and Mr. Harville's discussion about Mr. Benwick moving on. pg. 704 About whether men do not forget women sooner, than women forget men. Mr. Harville says, "as I was saying , we shall never agree, I suppose, upon this point.  No man and woman would, probably.  But let me observe that all histories are against you-all stories, prose and verse.  If I had such a memory as Benwick, I could bring you fifty quotations in a moment on my side of the argument, and I do not think I ever opened a book in my life which had not something to say upon woman's inconstancy.  Songs and proverbs all talk of woman's fickleness.  But, perhaps, you will say, they were all written by men."  

Anne:"Perhaps I shall.  Yes, yes, if you please, no references to examples in books.  Men have had every advantage of us in telling their own story.  Education has been theirs so much higher a degree; the pen has been in their hands.  I will not allow books to prove anything."

Captain Harville:"But how shall we prove anything?"

Anne:"We never shall.  We never can expect to prove anything upon such a point.  It is a difference of opinion which does not admit of proof.  We each begin, probably, with a little bias towards our own sex, and upon that bias build every circumstance in favor of it which has occurred within our own circle; many of which circumstances perhaps those very cases which strike us the most or may be precisely such as cannot be brought forward without betraying a confidence or in some respect, saying, what should not be said."

I felt Anne was referring to herself, arguing she has not forgotten, or stopped loving Captain Wentworth all these years, yet at this time, she is not aware of the fact, Mr. Wentworth has not forgotten, nor stopped loving her either.  With Captain Wentworth overhearing this conversation, I am certain he realized, it is time for him to step up, and let Anne know how he feels, thus hurries and writes the letter.  I love how JA went about this entire conversation between Anne and Captain Harville.  It allowed her to voice her feelings, and Captain Wentworth hearing it without her knowing he was listening in.

So what do you all think of Anne pointing out.........."Men have had every advantage of us in telling their own story.  Education has been theirs so much higher a degree; the pen has been in their hands.  I will not allow books to prove anything."

Is this JA's voice, telling us her personal feelings, about the fact men have had the rights to higher education, and she is feeling more of a modernized woman, wanting and believing women should be allowed to have the same advantages?  She did a great job allowing Anne to stop Captain Harville at that point, and letting him know he would be using unfair tactics, in using books for his argument, when women have not had the opportunity to write or publish books, on this subject.  When I read this I smiled and said, way to go JA!

I am having a little JA withdrawals, and am thinking about beginning Emma, since I own the book.  Went to the library today with my sweet 2 yr old granddaughter, and 4 yr old day care child, and was tempted to pick up The House Divided by Pearl S. Buck, since I finished Sons.  Maybe I'll just give myself a little break and wait for Remarkable Creatures discussion to begin on Nov. 1

Ciao for now~

[BarbStAubrey]

aha - found the link - interesting they show Captain Wentworth in both long pants and another illustration shows him in the older what I call the Benjamin Franklin look.

I forgot that Anne had a brother who was stillborn - many deaths in the story, the Musgroves had a son die at sea then we have the death of Anne's mother and the young wife of Captain Benwick - Cannot find anything about Lady Russell if she was married and if so what happened to her husband - does anyone know?

[JoanP]

JA doesn't dwell on illness and death, its cause or the emotional toll, does she?...except to announce the fact that death has occurred:

- Lady Russell, "the widow of only a knight."  

- Sir Elliot inserted into his favorite book, the Baronetage, "still born son, November 5, 1789."

-Of  Mr. Elliot's first marriage, she writes only of Elizabeth "wearing black ribbons for his wife."

- Of the death of Lady Elliot, she writes only "of the day of the month" Sir Walter inscribed  in the Baronetage and "the awful legacy (the three girls) for a mother  to confide to the guidance of a conceited, silly father."

Was this avoidance intentional?  Because of her illness while writing this novel?  Can you remember earlier novels and how she portrayed the death of her characters?

[bellamarie]

Barb ,you got me to thinking about all the deaths in the story, and along with those you, and JoanP. mentioned, I remembered these facts, and others who were deceased.

pg. 686 Anne-"My dear Mrs. Smith, Mr. Elliot's wife has not been dead much above half a year.  He ought not be supposed to be paying his addresses to anyone." 
pg. 688 Mrs. Smith-" I did not know his wife previously, her inferior situation in society, or at least till within the last two years of her life, and can answer any question you wish to put."

pg. 598 (Speaking of Lady Russell and Sir Walter's friendship)  "Thirteen years had passed away since Lady Elliot's death, and they were still near neighbours and intimate friends, and one remained a  widower, the other a widow. This friend and Sir Walter did not marry, whatever might have been anticipated, on that head by their acquaintance." 

This was interesting how JA points out: "The Lady Russell, of steady age and character, and extremely well provided for, should have no thought of a second marriage, needs no apology to the public, which is rather apt to be unreasonably discontented when a woman does marry again, than when she does not; but Sir Walter's continuing in singleness requires explanation.  Be it known, then, that Sir Walter, like a good father (having met with one or two private disappointments in very unreasonable applications), prided himself on remaining single for his dear daughter's sake."

Am I to understand, JA is telling us Sir Walter attempted to propose once or twice and it did not work out?  She did not elaborate why it did not work out, just that he was happy with having his eldest daughter, Elizabeth as his escort.  So it was acceptable Lady Russell need not remarry, since she was of a certain age and was well provided for.  Now for Sir Walter, why do you think JA did not marry him off, since it was expected of him?

Mr. Smith was also deceased.

Did we know what happened to Lady Dalrymples, or Mrs. Clay's husband?  Are there others we have overlooked, or not mentioned?

Goodness, I never gave much thought to the many deceased characters in the story until Barb, mentioned it. 

I seriously think, had JA not been in dire health while writing Persuasion, I think she would have gone back through and given us some more information and tied up many loose ends to her characters.

Ciao for now~

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, and another wasn't the clergyman that one of the Musgrove daughter's married also a widower.

Mrs. Clay confused me - either another version of this story must explain things or something - I read in a time chart that she came home to her father, Mr. Shepherd the attorney that urged Sir Walter Elliot to lease, because either a divorce or from a bad marriage and she had a couple of children, forgot the number, I think 3, that she brought with her and get this, she was supposed to be having an affair with William Elliot while he was pursuing Anne. Mrs. Clay and William later marry. So how did they pull that off - was divorce a possibility in 1814 or was it 1820.

I am not going back to the story to verify all this but I just do not remember these details. It sure would explain the tat a tat she and William Elliot were having in Bath that Mary saw from the window and called Anne to witness who was surprised since he was supposed to have left Bath 3 hours earlier.

Back in the 70s I was big into needlework - used to teach and traveled to a series of museums in England and Wales with appointments to view some of their holdings that were in the basements and attics of museums, then spent time in Paris studying with a needlework artist. Always, wanted to study lacemaking in Ireland and some of the older needlework in Bavaria but that is another story - anyhow there was a huge fad both in the US and in England during the nineteenth century to stitch funeral samplers that often was stitched with the hair of the deceased.

The history behind it was that it was only in the nineteenth century with enough collective wealth that average folks could take time to grieve and carry out funeral rites. Earlier it was all a lickity split event with folks returning to their work that day. Some had community and family support to bury their dead the next day so, there was a wake to watch the body that became a cause of drinking and storytelling as well as, hiring mourners called singers. However, children and infants were not waked, they were quickly buried. Those that did receive a ceremonial funeral often including a dirge and other symbolic ceremony were heroic warriors and community leaders.

The various funeral ceremonies we knew came from the mid nineteenth century - flowers, wreaths, wearing black, women wearing veils, funeral lunches to accommodate the travelers, not receiving or calling on others for 6 months, which during this time is when the funeral samplers were traditionally stitched.

The way Jane Austen brushes over the dead in her story I am wondering, as fashion was going through a big change, if the attitude toward burying the dead was changing into the era of ceremonial funerals - certainly the Musgrove's son was buried at sea but the wives and husbands that had died may have not been given the ceremony and emotional mourning that was typical later by only 20 or so years but rather, for those without a title and accompanying wealth they had to get on with life. I get the impression few could manage a single life - with the labor intensive chores it would take two to make a go of maintaining a household. Especially nineteenth century stories they are filled with sisters or other female family member managing the household for single men.

[PatH]

So many loose ends.  Mrs. Clay is described as having had "an unprosperous marriage".  I'm not sure what that is, but she wasn't divorced.  Divorce was almost impossible.  A footnote says she is later describes as a widow, but I don't know where.  She didn't marry William Elliot when she went off with him, but she's working on it, and may succeed.  It was a big step for her to go off with him.  Once she had done that, she would not be accepted in polite society.

I don't think Charles Hayter, the clergyman who will marry Henrietta, had been married before.

Anne's mother is described as having enough interests in life to make her reluctant to leave it.

Something I find surprising is the callousness with which Dick Musgrove's loss is treated.  That's not like JA, and I bet she would have softened that part if she had had time.

[PatH]

 

Be it known, then, that Sir Walter, like a good father (having met with one or two private disappointments in very unreasonable applications), prided himself on remaining single for his dear daughter's sake.

You're right, Bellamarie.  That means that he asked one or two women who it was unreasonable to think might say yes (probably too rich or too noble or women who hardly knew him) and they turned him down.

JoanP, I can't find it now, but I'm pretty sure JA visited Lyme Regis in 1804, probably not with any particular literary thing in mind.  Although she used all her experiences in books, I don't think she traveled proactively to find material.

[Jonathan]

'The way Jane Austen brushes over the dead in her story I am wondering, as fashion was going through a big change....' Good point, Barb. Nothing more impressive than a British state funeral.

Just getting to know Jane Austen, I get the impression she was having to much fun among the living, was too full of the life around her, had her hands too full with the antics of the living, to bother about gloomy death except as a plot device.

I watched a movie version of Pride and Predjudice last night. My, oh my, was that ever lively. The girls are so full of life. Whatever possessed P.D.James to write something like Death Comes To Pemberley. Which should I read first?

Earlier in the day, yesterday, I was best man at my kid brother's wedding. What a happy couple. They're both 82. For a wedding gift I'll get them a deluxe boxed set of Jane Austen. That will keeep them young.

I was intrigued by Lady Russell's part in the story. From beginning to end she remains the 'friend' of Anne. Did she ever make a decision in Anne's best interest? Imagine coupling her with Mr Elliot.

[BarbStAubrey]

  Lady Russell and Sir Elliot - mother and son...

[PatH]

Jonathan, don't read Death Comes to Pemberly before you have read Pride and Prejudice.  You'll miss too much.  I don't know what made James write it, but it's only partly a success.  The mystery part is fine; it's a reasonable puzzle.  But she hasn't succeeded in getting the tone right, and her characters sometimes do things JA's characters wouldn't.  And she has Elizabeth and Darcy having a number of conversations about their marriage and their feelings for each that they either would have had sooner (they've been married 4 years) or never would have had at all, or, in a surprising number of cases, had already worked through in Pride and Prejudice.  So a lot of people don't like it.

There aren't examples of Lady Russell making good decisions for Anne, but Lady R took the role of a mother figure for the grieving 14 year old Anne, and presumably gave her moral support and advice.  Since Anne seems grateful, Lady R. probably did a good job.

Congratulations to your brother and his bride!  It's nice to see people happy.

[JoanK]

Bellemarie is having JA withdrawals, and Jonathan is giving JA presents! this discussion has been a success!!!! She gets under your skin, doesn't she?

JONATHAN: definitely read all of JA before you read her pale reflections. There are a lot of the later, fuel for those of us like PatH and I who are well and truly hooked. But that's for later, after you've read each of JAs books three times.

We forget how common early death was in those days. By necessity, attitudes toward it were different. Pat and I have copies of a letter written by our great-great grandfather, on passing the cemetery where eight of his ten children were buried.

Young widows and widowers must have been common. It's interesting that it is assumed that a man couldn't get along without a wife, but a woman didn't need a husband. Of course it was assumed that men had sexual needs and woman didn't. In addition, the man of that class needed a wife to raise his children, if he had any, to provide him with an heir if he didn't. Widowed women often either lived in poverty, like Mrs. Smith, or were taken into other families to live as the "poor relation" found in many books.

Notice the little dig at Sir Walter: having failed to find a woman who would marry him, he announces that he is staying unmarried in memory of his wife (and maybe even believes it).

[bellamarie]

JoanK.,  "Notice the little dig at Sir Walter: having failed to find a woman who would marry him, he announces that he is staying unmarried in memory of his wife (and maybe even believes it)."

Good minds think alike, I have felt throughout the entire book, JA did not especially like Sir Walter's character, and took digs at him.  After searching and reading many different analysis, of Persuasion, every person gave the same opinion of Sir Walter.  He was full of himself, pompous, careless, and uncaring.  Even our Captain Wentworth feels this way in the last pages of the book, once he and Anne are finally together:

pg.  711 "Who can be in doubt of what followed?   When any two young people take it into their heads to marry, they are pretty sure by perseverance to carry their point, be they ever so poor or ever so imprudent, or ever so little likely to be necessary to each other's ultimate comfort.  This may be bad morality to conclude with, but I believe it to be truth; and if such parties succeed, how should a Captain Wentworth and an Anne Elliot, with the advantage of maturity of mind, consciousness of right, and one independent fortune between them, fail of bearing down every opposition?  They might, in fact, have borne down a great deal more than they met with, for there was little to distress them beyond the want of graciousness and warmth.  Sir Walter made no objection, and Elizabeth did nothing worse than look cold and unconcerned.  Captain Wentworth, with five-and-twenty thousand pounds, and as high in his profession as merit and activity could place him, was no longer nobody.  He was now esteemed quite worthy to address the daughter of a foolish, spendthrift baronet, who had not had principle or sense enough to maintain himself in the situation in which Providence had placed him, and who could give his daughter at present but a small part of the share of ten thousand pounds which must be hers hereafter.  

Sir Walter, indeed, though he had no affection for Anne, had not vanity flattered, to make him really happy on the occasion, was very far from thinking it a bad match for her.  On the contrary, when he saw more of Captain Wentworth, saw him repeatedly by daylight, and eyed him well, he was very much struck by his personal claims, and felt that his superiority of appearance might not be unfairly balanced against her superiority of rank; and all of this, assisted by his well-sounding name, enabled Sir Walter, at last to prepare his pen, with a very good grace, for the insertion of the marriage in the volume of honour."

pg. 712  "It cannot be doubted that Sir Walter and Elizabeth were shocked and mortified by the loss of their companion, (Mrs. Clay) and the discovery of their deception in her.  They had their great cousins, to be sure, to resort to for comfort; but they must long feel that to flatter and follow others, without being flattered and followed in turn, is but a state of half enjoyment."

JA, really wanted to end this story with the readers not especially liking Sir Walter, or Elizabeth for that matter, showing how neither could care less, about Anne, or of her marrying Captain Wentworth, except for how they may benefit personally from it.  With all due respect...... I feel he was a pompous ass!

Jonathan, What a very thoughtful and perfect gift to give to the newlyweds!  

Yes, JoanK., JA, does get under your skin.  After reading Pride and Prejudice, I would not ever want to read Death Comes to Pemberly if it would mar my great feelings, Pride and Prejudice left me with.  Sometimes, it's better to leave perfection alone.  Jonathan, I truly loved the humor and feistiness of Elizabeth.  I may have to find the movie, and watch it, now that you have voiced you enjoyed it.

Barb, " Lady Russell and Sir Elliot - mother and son..."

NO!!!!  I just don't think JA would have intended that scenario, without giving us a hint, or some basis for it.

PatH.,  I agree, I see Lady Russell as Anne's mother figure, and because of that, I can see her being friends and forgiving.  Afterall,  Anne did tell Captain Wentworth, pg. 710  "I have been thinking over the past, and trying impartially to judge of the right and wrong, I mean with regard to myself; and I must believe that I was right, much as I suffered from it, that I was perfectly right in being guided by the friend whom you will love better than you do now.  To me, she was in the place of a parent.   Do not mistake me, however.  I am not saying that she did not err in her advice.  It was, perhaps, one of those cases in which advice is good or bad only as the event decides; and for myself, I certainly never should, in any circumstance of tolerable similarity, give such advice.  But I mean I was right in submitting to her, and that if I had none otherwise, I should have suffered in more in continuing the engagement than I did even in giving it up, because I should have suffered in my conscience.  I have now, as far as such a sentiment is allowable in human nature, nothing to reproach myself with; and if I mistake not, a strong sense of duty is no bad part of a woman's portion."

Is this not what any mother/daughter relationship goes through?  I know for myself, there were times my mother guided me away from my own feelings and judgement, and I listened to her out of respect and duty.  Now that she is no longer with me, I have an enormous contented conscience, as I am certain Anne does.

Ciao for now~

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh dear Bellamarie I hoped my selection of smiley faces helped to show it is tongue in cheek fun based on the characteristics of their personalities not a possible reality - it was intended as a wink   showing how Lady Russell acted the mother figure with very proper and responsible ways through out the story as compared to Sir Walter with whom a match would have been Lady Russell taking care of his accesses and being the responsible one so he could continue to focus on being the fashionable one. This was not a serious comment on any more than those character traits not as a comment about the suitability of a sick married relationship. In that respect Jane Austen wrote these characters with Lady Russell being mother like as well as a substitude mother for Anne and Sir Walter focused on only the aspect of his life being in sinc with the latest fashion.

[bellamarie]

Barb, I didn't think you meant it seriously, I thought it was a passing thought, in jest, as was my response..  I just couldn't even imagine it.  lolol      

[bellamarie]

Is Anne too good to be true?

No, I don't think Anne, is too good to be true, in the setting of life back in the 1800's.  Her attitude, behavior, and feelings were in step with the times.  I see a lot of women like Anne today in modern day society, only not quite as persuasive where their love is concerned.  Women today can, and do, speak out. and do not feel the obligation to allow someone like Lady Russell, persuade them against what they feel, is not in their best interest. But then money and status quo, are not the driving forces, for marriage today, as strongly as they were back then.  Women are as educated, and financially capable as any man today, so the necessity for women to marry for having men provide for their life, is no longer the requirement, which allows today's woman, to choose their perspective husband for love. 

I just want to take the time to thank PatH., and JoanK., for a wonderful discussion.  Persuasion was not an easy book to carry on a dialogue with at times, yet you both managed to pose questions that kept us going.  I would probably never have finished this book, had I picked it up to read by myself, without the discussion group. I'm certain I would have laid it down, hoping to get back to it one day.  I am so glad I DID finish it, because as I have said before, JA left the very best for last.  The letter Captain Wentworth wrote to Anne, left me hoping my grand daughters will be blessed to find them a Captain Wentworth to live happily ever after with one day.  I plan to type this letter up and frame it.  It deserves to come outside the novel, into life, to be a constant reminder, love can prevail, and to never give up on love...... 

Ciao for now`

[PatH]

Bellamarie, one of the best things about leading this discussion has been sharing something I love with people who are just discovering it.  I'm glad you enjoyed it.

[JoanP]

Many thanks to JoanK and PatH and your steady leadership of this discussion. It is clear that you both know and love Jane Austen's work...Janites to the core.

You have stated your opinion of "Pemberly" - I wonder if either ofnyou are familiar with the recent surge of interest in Miss Austen's novels by modern writers as described in this recent article of the Washington Post -

Sense and Sensibility by Joanna Trollope

[PatH]

Yesterday's Washington Post had a review of the first book of the Austen Project, which is re-writing JA's novels, setting them in modern times.  This one is Sense and Sensibility, done by Joanna Trollope.

The reviewer says it is unequivocally worth reading, and though it follows the original closely, the characters manage to take things into their own hands.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/books/review-sense-and-sensibility-by-joanna-trollope/2013/10/25/aea70a5a-3693-11e3-8a0e-4e2cf80831fc_story.html

[PatH]

JoanP, we were posting at the same time.

[JoanP]

Ha!  What do you think of this particular project, Pat?  Too soon to say?

"Joanna Trollope, the author of many wonderfully readable novels focusing on the ups and downs of British middle-class lives, drew the “Sense and Sensibility” card, and has produced the debut volume in this new series. (Curtis Sittenfeld will bring “Pride & Prejudice” into the present in fall 2014, and Alexander McCall Smith is at work on “Emma.”)"

[PatH]

There are a lot of re-workings of JA's novels, and one of the oddest is Helen Fielding's Bridget Jones' Diary and The Edge of Reason.  The first roughly has the plot of Pride and Prejudice, and the second of Persuasion.  In Edge of Reason, Fielding throws in some bits which are not needed for the plot, but just there as in jokes.  Someone comments on the Admiral Croft figure's poor driving.  The Wentworth figure takes away an unruly child who is bothering the heroine.

Another odd re-working is the movie Clueless, which is Emma set in a Los Angeles high school.

[PatH]

Ha!  What do you think of this particular project, Pat?  Too soon to say?

I'll have to read the first one and see.  It sounds like fun.

[bellamarie]

PatH.,  Now this is exciting to learn from the link you posted:

Trollope sticks closely to the “Sense and Sensibility” plot: Austen’s horse-drawn coaches become Aston Martins, uncle Sir John Middleton runs an outdoor clothing company that sounds a lot like L.L. Bean, and Marianne sends passionate notes to her heartless lover via e-mail. Like Austen’s Elinor (“sense”), this modern Elinor is still a responsible older sister, who carefully hides her love for the do-good Edward Ferrars. Meanwhile, Marianne (“sensibility”) falls for a caddish John Willoughby — just like the originals.

But there comes a moment, hard to pin down, when Trollope’s characters leave their predecessors behind and become players in their own lives. Even though you may know Austen’s novels well enough to predict exactly what will happen next, you’ll care about finding your way to the happy ending of Trollope’s version.

 

Aston Martins, L.L. Bean, e-mail, oh my!!!   Sounds like one of my favorite movies, I watch faithfully every October..."You've Got Mail"
I always get melancholy when the Little Shop Around the Corner, has to close, because the big "Fox" bookstore (Barnes & Noble) is coming in around the corner.  Meg Ryan's character runs to her computer daily to email Tom Hanks character, the two of them falling in love over emails, yet they meet in real life, not knowing they are the people behind the emails.  OH I just LOVE this movie! When they finally reveal themselves in the park, I cry every time. Now, it could truly be a JA love story redone.

I don't have a problem with modern day authors, bringing back Austen's books, I would have an issue IF they changed the characters beyond recognition.  Then, they would NOT be Austen's, it would just be a cheap trick, to make money off of JA's accomplishments.

PatH., "Another odd re-working is the movie Clueless, which is Emma set in a Los Angeles high school."

Oh my heavens, I have seen Clueless, but never read Emma.... now this is interesting!  You just keep surprising me!

Ciao for now~

[BarbStAubrey]

The more I dwell on this story and the writing the more themes I conjure that I see as messages to guide living today. I only read recently how many people after reading an effective story or seeing a movie that stirred them emotionally often continue a version of the story in their heads - forgot now but there was a name for this phenomenon.  Sounds like many are affected by this story who bring the themes and character types into another time and place and do not keep it solely in their heads but commit their imagined extension of Jane Austen's story on paper.

I am still bawled over by her writing - she can say so much indirectly using beautiful words and sentence structure. Just amazing. Wonder if it was a gift or the way many spoke who just did not put on paper their views on life.

Yes, JoanK and PatH this was a great experience - so glad we had someone lighting the path for us - thanks...

[JoanK]

"Now, it [You've Got mail] could truly be a JA love story redone."

If I remember correctly, when Ryan and Hanks were supposed to meet the first time, she was to carry a copy of "Pride and Prejudice" so he would recognize her.

[bellamarie]

JoanK., Alas!!!  YOU are so smart!!!  YES indeed, Ryan sat at the little table, waiting for Hanks to show up, and she has Pride and Prejudice and the rose, with her.  He comes in, does NOT reveal to her his true identity as the email friend, but instead mentions the book she is reading. I totally forgot that until your post.  NOT, a coincidence, I dare say, for the producers decision to use the book in the script.  Now I have a wonderful connection, of my two favorites, Pride and Prejudice and You've Got Mail.  Thank you so much for remembering that little, but very important tidbit.  And like Mr. Darcey and Elizbeth, Ryan and Hanks spar throughout the entire movie, and you just can't help but root for them to end up together.  Oh gosh I just have to go watch the movie now.  I have it on VHS and DVD.  I was afraid my VHS tape would not hold up through the years.   

Ciao for now~


 

[bellamarie]

My curiosity got the best of me.  I had to Google for info:


You've Got Mail is a 1998 American romantic comedy film directed by Nora Ephron, starring Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan. It was written by Nora and Delia Ephron based on the play Parfumerie by Miklós László. The film is about two e-mailing lovers who are completely unaware that their sweetheart is, in fact, a person with whom they share a degree of animosity. An adaptation of Parfumerie was previously made as The Shop Around the Corner, a 1940 film by Ernst Lubitsch and also a 1949 musical remake, In the Good Old Summertime by Robert Z. Leonard starring Judy Garland. You've Got Mail updates that concept with the use of e-mail. Influences from Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice can also be seen in the relationship between Joe Fox and Kathleen Kelly — a reference pointed out by these characters actually discussing Mr. Darcy and Miss Bennet in the film. Ephron insists that You've Got Mail was as much about the Upper West Side itself as the characters, highlighting the "small town community" feel that pervades the Upper West Side.[citation needed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You've_Got_Mail

As I remember, Kathleen Kelly is actually making a dig at Joe Fox, by inferring he is nothing like someone as gallant as Mr. Darcey, because she has found out he is indeed "FOX" books, who is causing her Little Shop Around the Corner to close.  I love their banter. 

Ciao for now~

[PatH]

While we're talking about movies: if anyone wants to seal off their experience by watching one of the many versions, I strongly recommend the 1995 BBC production with Ciaran Hinds and Amanda Root.  So much of the book is inward--people's thoughts--and they manage to bring this out.  It's superbly cast.  Almost all of the characters look and act just right.  Of course they had to cut things to fit the movie length, but they did it well.

The more recent production shown on PBS when they were doing all of JA's works isn't nearly as good.  The characters are kind of smoothed out.  William Elliot and Captain Wentworth don't seem all that different, and you don't get any notion of what a salty character Admiral Croft is.

There are other movies.  If anyone has seen any, I'd like to know what they are like.

[salan]

I just watched the movie on Ovation channel.  I am with Direct tv and somehow have overlooked this channel.  Surprise, surprise this channel shows a lot of "classic" movies.  They will be showing The Odyssey in the next week.  That is one of the books my ftf book club will be reading; so I have programmed it in.  The movie Persuasion was well done and followed the book closely.
Sally

[Jonathan]

Pat, I just read your post in The Library. It reminded me of something I had seen in a link provided by Winchesterlady some time ago. Checking back, I find it in post 131, Oct 6. What do you say to this:

'Joanna Trollope, whose contemporary version of Sense and Sensibility will be published later this year, is struck by the original novel’s similarities with E L James’s sexually explicit Fifty Shades of Grey.'

I can't begin to tell you how enjoyable I've found this discussion. Thanks to everyone for all the advice on how to read Jane Austen. And I'm well into Pride and Predjuice. I love it. It's hilarious.

About Anne Elliot, Jane Austen is on record as saying to a friend: 'You may perhaps like the heroine, as she is almost too good for me.'

Clearly, there's more to Jane Austen than would seem.

[bellamarie]

Jonathan, 'Joanna Trollope, whose contemporary version of Sense and Sensibility will be published later this year, is struck by the original novel’s similarities with E L James’s sexually explicit Fifty Shades of Grey.'

Say it ain't so.  It would be a shame if someone used JA's beautiful love story and trashed it, and deduced it down to explicit sex. E. L. James has made millions off those books, and in my honest opinion, 50 Shades of Grey is not about love whatsoever, it is about dominance, physical, mental, emotional, and sexual abuse, brought upon an innocent young virgin.  When those books came out, I made my then 16 yr old granddaughter promise me to not read them.  I was horrified at how women found these books romantic, and Christian Grey, someone they would want as a boyfriend.  Christian Grey  vs.  Captain Wentworth....hands down, gallantry over a controlling sexual pervert.  I said I felt these books should have come with an adult maturity warning.  Music, videos, x-box games, magazines with explicit sex and violence has ratings on them, this book should be sold with the same warning.  I felt so sorry for the woman character, I kept screaming while reading, someone save her from this horrible man, and herself.  I did not read book 3, after I realized this story is not about anything more than abuse, and there was no way the author could justify to me, Grey's behavior, nor could she convince me. any amount of therapy could change the evil, abusive man he is.  I kept thinking about professionals telling us all these years that "control and abuse" is not an illness that can be cured, it is about dominating.  This is why sex offenders, must now be registered. My daughter in law is a case worker for an unwed mother's program, and sees women being abused like this, and she could not finish reading the books.  She said, sadly, women accept this in hopes of happily ever afters, and some end up dead instead, from not knowing to get out of relationships like this. Christian Grey should have been put in prison for his actions, rather than romanticized. The abuse in these books, reminded me of the movie Julia Roberts played in years ago, "Sleeping With the Enemy."  It's interesting how they could not get any well known actor to play the part of Christian Grey in the soon to be made movie, because they did not want to be associated with the disgusting character, for fear it would ruin their acting career.  So two unknowns, will be playing the main character parts.

Sorry for the rant, these books really do offend, and insult me as a woman.

Jonathan, I knew you would enjoy Pride and Prejudice!

Ciao for now~

[JoanK]

You're excused. I haven't read the book, but am well aware that for centuries, control and abuse of women has been accepted, even glorified.

[Jonathan]

'It would be a shame....'

That's my reaction too, Bellamarie. I had no idea 50 SHADES is that offensive. I've read other opinions much like yours, and so I wondered if someone seeing a similarity between it and Jane Austen's Sense And Sensibility, is the right person to rework S&S into a modern version.

Jane Austen must be turning over in her grave. And I'm sorry about posting the quote.

[PatH]

About Anne Elliot, Jane Austen is on record as saying to a friend: 'You may perhaps like the heroine, as she is almost too good for me.'

You've found me out, Jonathan.  That's what led me to put in question #8.  IMHO, she just manages to avoid being too good.  She is awfully good, but her passionate nature, her inner frustration at the restrictions imposed on her, and her anguish at how things seem to be going to turn out keep her totally sympathetic.

Her goodness represents one of JA's themes--the importance of living your life according to strict principles.  Anne manages to do this and still seem human.

[bellamarie]

No apology necessary, Jonathan, it's good to know, so I will stay away from, Joanna Trollope, whose contemporary version of Sense and Sensibility.

Just began reading Remarkable Creatures, I love that the book is taking place in Lyme Regis, since I feel familiar with it from Persuasion.  I don't know much about fossils, but I think TC is about to give us a whole lot of knowledge, with Mary Anning and Elizabeth hunting on the beaches daily.  Come on over and join the discussion, we can all walk the cliffs as JA's characters did, and we just might find a jewel in the sand!

Ciao for now~

[Jonathan]

Have yourself a fine time in Lyme Regis, Bellamarie. I don't have the book, but I'll be following along anyways. You'll be taking many associations with you after reading Jane Austen. She practically made a shrine out of Lyme Regis, with many readers going there to walk where Anne Elliot felt so at home.

I'm sure fossils can be made exciting, but while you're down there, look for the story. Things are always happening on the English coast. My favorite spot is Tintagel in Cornwall, with its magnificent cliffs. King Arthur was born there in the castle, while Merlin was practicing his magic in his cave at the foot of the cliff. Awesome.

You may just see Anne and Franklin walking along the sea wall, or perhaps a lonely figure dreaming up a plot. Whoops!! Watch your step.

[JoanK]

I've really enjoyed walking with you all along that seawall and in Bath. I always say it, but its always true: you are the best fellow-discussants ever. Keep us up on your further adventures with Jane Austen.

I can't believe the month is over already. I'm off to trick or treat with my grandkids tonight (I wonder what JA would have made of that custom? Is there anything like it in England?) And then tomorrow, back to Lyme with fossils and the beach.

See you there!

[BarbStAubrey]

The tradition of going from door to door receiving food already existed in Great Britain and Ireland in the form of "souling", where children and poor people would sing and say prayers for the dead in return for cakes. Guising—children disguised in costumes going from door to door for food and coins—also predates American trick or treat that started in Minnesota with the first time costumed children knocked doors in 1940 , where as guising is recorded in Scotland at Halloween in 1895, where masqueraders in disguise carrying lanterns made out of scooped out turnips, visit homes to be rewarded with cakes, fruit and money. While going from door to door in disguise has remained popular among Scots and Irish, the North American custom of saying "trick or treat" has recently become common

[JoanK]

Only since 1940? I must have been one of the earliest trick-or-treaters! I was 7 then, And I must have started a few years after that.

[BarbStAubrey]

I am remembering more pranks with front gates on roofs and outhouses tumped over but no treats - the treats were on Thanksgiving morning when dressed as raggamuffins we did not get candy but apples with coins stuck in or loose change that we could use to buy one small chocolate turkey and the rest towards Christmas.