Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online

[PatH]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

October Book Club Online

Persuasion by Jane Austen

“My idea of good company...is the company of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation; that is what I call good company.' 'You are mistaken,' said he gently, 'that is not good company, that is the best.” ― Jane Austen, Persuasion Come join us for the best company as we read this classic. Here, Austen abandons the young heroines of her earlier works and presents us with a fully mature woman who fears that her chance of happiness has already passed. Austen finished Persuasion just before her death at age 41. It is her last book, and some feel her best.      Discussion schedule:        Oct 1-7--Chapters 1-6        Oct 8-12--Chapters 7-12        Oct 13-18--Chapters 13-18 (Book 2, 1-6)        Oct 19-?--Chapters 19-24 (Book 2, 7-12)

Some things to think about: Chapters 19-24 (Book 2, 7-12)

1. How does Austen maintain suspense in this last section? Did you feel it as you read? What did you feel?

2. Anne doesn't take action herself, but waits for others.  Why?

3. When Wentworth talks to Anne, she feels "agitation, pain, pleasure, a something between delight and misery." Have you ever felt like that? Under what circumstances?

4. Wentworth says "Bentwick is something more [than amiable, sweet-tempered and understanding]. He is a clever man, a reading man." But Charles says "His reading has done him no harm, for he has fought as well as read."Are we "something more" because we are reading people? Does it do us harm?

5. Why doesn't Mrs. Smith tell Anne what she knows at once?  Is this realistic?

6. [Women] "certainly do not forget you [men] as easily as you forget us. It is, perhaps, our fate rather than our merit." Do you agree?

7. In none of Austen's books does she write dialog declaring love. Why do you think this is? What did you think of the device Austen uses instead?

8. Is Anne too good to be true?
 

DLs:   PatH & JoanK  

[PatH]

I never knew of a second ending until this discussion.  One of my new books has it.  After Austen wrote it, she decided the ending was weak, and rewrote it, and it is the rewrite that was published, and has been the published ending ever since.  After we are all through the book, we can talk about which one we like best and why.

[PatH]

Pat, where did you acquire this knowlege?  Please tell!  I'll bet there's a story there.

It's a pretty simple story.  I'm a sailing nut anyway, and I've read all 20 of Patrick O'Brian's Master and Commander series.  They make a perfect tutorial for the naval background of Persuasion.  You can watch Jack Aubrey and his friends (and enemies) going through all the manipulations to get ships and the other struggles involved in trying to get somewhere in the navy.  Aubrey is both lucky and a remarkably skillful sailor, manager of crew, and planner of battle strategy, but he has very little influence or patronage, and his people skills with superiors and officials aren't the best.

Aubrey is roughly based on a real person, Thomas Cochrane (also the model for Horatio Hornblower) and Aubrey's most wildly improbable battles are lifted straight from Cochrane's battles, even toned down a bit from the real thing.

An Austen side note: when I was reading the series, a number of times I noticed the appearance of ships that I knew Jane Austen's brothers had sailed in (ships are sort of people, so if you care you tend to remember their names) and Aubrey even sails on one, the Leopard.  It turns out this was deliberate.  O'Brian was a great admirer of Austen, and was putting them in whenever it made sense, as a tribute.

[bellamarie]

I absolutely hated the original ending, and am so glad there was a rewrite.  Here is a link that will give good argument as to why the rewritten, published version, was the best.  Decide for yourselves.  I personally LOVED the ending in my book and felt it was perfect in every way!!!

Don't click this link if you have NOT finished the book.  I do NOT want to spoil, the much awaited ending for anyone.

http://voices.yahoo.com/the-better-ending-persuasion-jane-austen-4175161.html

I was quite busy today with my grand daughter's tournament volleyball games, shopping, and then out to a movie and dinner with good friends, and my hubby for Sweetest Day!  Just got home and in my pjs.  I have yet another busy day tomorrow, church and the apple orchard with all my children and grandchildren, so won't be able to discuss much.  I was at the movie theater waiting for our friends to arrive, when I checked in and saw the post about two endings.  I thought I was seeing things, so I had to Google, and find out what on earth it was all about. 

Can't wait to begin discussing the last chapters. 

Ciao for now~

[PatH]

There's a possibility for confusion in the term "original ending".  It could mean either originally written, or originally published.  Shall we call them the ending with the Musgraves and the ending with the Crofts?

[JoanK]

The article about the "better ending" is very interesting (but read the two endings first). I certainly like the published ending better! But what a luxury to have the second as well! Since I feel that I understand Anne and Frederick's emotions so well from the published ending, I can't relate to the article's criticism that the unpublished one does not allow you to feel Anne's emotions.

[JoanK]

Even if you haven't read the ending yet, you can respond to one point the critical article makes. He says that throughout the book, Wentworth avoids dealing with his feelings. Do you think this is true? 

[bellamarie]

Yes, JoanK., I do think Wentworth avoided dealing with his feelings, and I believe it was because he was so fearful of Anne's power to hurt him again, so he avoided her, especially after Lyme.  Only in the end, did he finally decide to risk it all, and let her know his true feelings.  I think he came to the conclusion, he will never know if there could be another chance at love with her, unless he puts his feelings on the line, and risks rejection once again.  

PatH.,  The original ending was Anne and Admiral Croft. (which I did not like at all)  The rewritten ending, that is published was with Captain Harville. (which touched me beyond imagination) I seriously was so touched with the conversation Anne had with Captain Harville, while  Mr. Wentworth was busy writing the  letter to Anne, overhearing the entire conversation.  These words from Captain Harville just melted me:

"Ah! cried Captain Harville, in a tone of strong feeling, "if I could but make you comprehend what a man suffers when he takes a last look at his wife and children, and watches the boat that he has sent them off in, as long as it is in sight, and then turns away and says, "God knows whether we ever meet again!"  And then, coming back from a twelvemonth's absence, perhaps, and obliged to put into another port, he calculates how soon it be possible to get them there, pretending to deceive himself, and saying, "They cannot be here till such a day,"  but all the while hoping for them twelve hours sooner, and seeing them arrive at last, as if Heaven had given them wings, by many hours sooner still! If I could explain to you all this, and all that a man can bear and do, and glories to do, for the sake of these treasures of his existence!  I speak, you know, only of such men as have hearts!" pressing his own with emotion.

Anne's response was so touching and vulnerable.

"Oh!" cried Anne, eagerly, "I hope to do justice to all that is felt by you, and by those who resemble you.  God forbid that I should under-value the warm and faithful feelings of any of my fellow creatures!  I should deserve utter contempt if I dared to suppose that true attachment and constancy were known only by women.  No, I believe you capable of everything great and good in your married lives.   I believe you equal to every exertion, and to every domestic forbearance, so long as-if I may be allowed the expression, so long as you have an object.  I mean while the woman you love lives, and lives for you.  All the privilege I claim for my own sex (it is not enviable one: you need not covet it), is that of loving longest, when existence or when hope is gone!"
She could not immediately have uttered another sentence; her heart was too full, her breath too much oppressed'

Captain Harville's response: "You are a good soul," cried Captain Harville, putting his hand on her arm, quite affectionately.  "There is no quarrelling with you."

After reading this, knowing Frederick had heard the entire conversation, I suspect, that is what made him decide to write the letter to Anne, right then and there.  He not only could see what a "treasure she is", but he could see even Captain Harville could see it too. Captain Harville is truly a man in love with his wife, and wants Anne and Frederick to experience this same type of love.

I hope I did not jump too far ahead of the chapters for discussion, but I have to say, this stuck with me more than anything else in the final chapters.  It's like the famous line in Jerry Maguire.....  "You had me at hello."  My heart was "too full."

Ciao for now~  

[PatH]

That and the letter which follows are about the most powerful and emotional parts of the book.

[PatH]

But let's backtrack now to the start of this section.  We left Anne at the end of chapter 18 feeling "senseless joy" at the thought that Wentworth is free from Louisa.  But now, what can she do?  It's hard to imagine fully the constraints on a single woman's behavior back then.  She cannot write a letter to a single man who isn't a relative.  She can't invite him to anything at her house.  (Her sister Elizabeth, as mistress of the household, can.)  Under many situations, she can't even speak to him in public unless he speaks to her first.  They don't attend many of the same social functions.

She's left with a frustrating waiting game.

[Jonathan]

Thanks, Bellamarie, for the 'Better ending of Persuasion' link. Most interesting argument. I agree with you. The published ending is the better one.

I can't agree with everything Neil Thakore says in the link, but he is certainly on to a problem that I have with the book. Captain Wentworth is never given a chance to reveal his feelings the way Anne is, whether it's direct of indirect discourse. And I think the author was aware of that and was unhappy about it. I wonder if there might have been a third ending if Jane Austen had lived a little longer.

Thakore concludes his argument with: 'In the end, the published ending makes the two lovers more persuasive.' Ironic?

Or this, earlier: 'The original ending, however...fails to articulate the character of Wentworth that is consistent with the novel, thus not truly capturing a justified picture of the two lover's relationship.

Overhearing Anne's talk of the eternal constancy of her love overwhelms Captain Wentworth and gets an immediate, emphatic response from him. But I'm still left with the problem whether it was that or his jealousy of Mr Elliot that revived the love in his heart? Another rewrite might have given Captain Wentworth his Chapter 18. As it is, this is Anne's story. And a very good one.

[bellamarie]

Jonathan, I think the conversation Mr. Wentworth overheard, the jealousy, and the fact he was coming to terms with his feelings never being able to get beyond Anne was a culmination of his reaction. 

PatH., Yes, here we are, Anne has been told all these deplorable things about Mr. Elliot, by Mrs. Smith, she needs to speak to Lady Russell about the truths of Mr. E, yet now Mr. Wentworth is in Bath before she even expected, and before Mrs. Croft could even write a letter sending for him, as Mr. Croft as suggested to Anne.

Oh my, what's a girl to do.  So many things in her head, so many people to contend with and so many feelings to sort out.  Anne may not be in the position to approach Mr. Wentworth herself, but she sure does seem to have plenty of cupids, all set and ready to point their arrows at him!  Luckily the situation presents itself, with Mr. Wentworth already in Bath.

Does anyone even suspect Anne, realized just being in the same room with Mr. Elliot was having such an effect on Mr. Wentworth.  The entire scene at the concert was so frustrating.  Just when Anne and Frederick are making some headway, in pops Mr. Elliot separating them.  And Frederick being the gentleman he is, decides to retreat and leave rather than stay and fight for Anne's attention.  So, even though I feel Frederick came to Bath to finally confront Anne with his true feelings for her, he is finding Mr. Elliot to be a bit of a challenge.

Ciao for now~

[PatH]

Bellamarie--the concert scene--it's been a long time since I first read this book, but I haven't forgotten my reaction from then.  This whole last section is a masterpiece of suspense.  You know how it must come out, but you're holding your breath with Anne each time something goes wrong, each time she can't do anything but has to wait for others to make a move, each time she hopes a glance has the desired effect.

[JoanK]

JONATHAN: "Captain Wentworth is never given a chance to reveal his feelings the way Anne is, whether it's direct of indirect discourse. And I think the author was aware of that and was unhappy about it."

Don't you feel that the letter reveals his feelings? I always did. and I would hate to do away with it. But I admit, it is lovely to have the unpublished ending as well, and hear him stammering out words. Especially for those of us who thought we had read every word (of fiction) that Austen had written, to have a totally new (to me)scene.

I have always felt frustrated that in all her books, except this, Austen has never allowed the men to express their love in their own words. Why do you think this is?

[bellamarie]

JoanK., Absolutely, Frederick's letter reveals his feelings.   Is it a coincidence that JA had Mr. Darcy, and Mr. Wentworth declare their love in a letter?  I find it even more romantic, because they can have the suitor's undivided attention, while expressing their undying love for them.  Also, it's a safe way for the men to declare their love, without the direct rejection face to face.  A bit of a safety net for them.  It also gives Anne time to digest what he says.  Although, once she has read it she can barely wait to see him to respond.

[Jonathan]

I must say this book has taken me back to a time when the world was young. Like in young and looking for signals from someone of the opposite sex. Missing nothing in a glance or a word.

I'm right there with you Pat. It becomes  a high drama of suspense. One can feel the tension. And, of course, the letter is the release. I find it interesting that Austen uses the same resolution with Mr Darcy's feelings. When it came to the crunch, Austen felt more comfortable with the written word than spoken dialogue. I am looking forward to reading Pride and Prejudice. And after that, her other novels. I have all seven of them now, including the wicked Lady Susan. Told entirely with letters. To help me on my way, I've also acquired Jane Austen for Dummies.

Did you know that reading Austen was found to be therapeutic for those suffering shellshock in World War I? And for those still in the trenches something worth fighting for.

[bellamarie]

Jonathan, you will love Pride and Prejudice, Elizabeth is an entirely different character than Anne.  She is spunky, and humorous. I have Emma left in my book of four stories, so I plan to read that.  I am anxious to see what Emma's character is like after knowing Anne and Elizabeth.  I love epistolary style novels, so I may be interested in reading Lady Susan.   

#5.  Why doesn't Mrs. Smith tell Anne what she knows at once?  Is this realistic?

I had a problem wondering why Mrs. Smith did not tell Anne about Mr. E., immediately.  When she thought Anne and he were  going to marry, she asked if Anne would speak to Mr. E., on her behalf to help her get her estate in the West Indies.  This really bothered me, because it did make me feel as though Mrs. Smith was watching out for her own self interests, rather than Anne's.

I was shocked at all the things Mrs. Smith reveals about Mr. Elliot.  First off that he and her husband were close friends.  How he had influence over her husband, and how Mr. Elliot and his wife had such an awful marriage.  Anne's instincts early on left her to not trust Mr. E., but who would have imagined him to be downright deplorable.  And to think he and Mrs. Clay were sneaking around, plotting.  Lady Russell, sure was off on her judgement, not only with Mr. E. being suitable for Anne, but on Mr. Wentworth NOT being a suitable match for Anne eight years ago. 

Ciao for now~

[PatH]

Bellamarie, Emma is rather different than either Elizabeth or Anne.  JA said of her "nobody will much like her but myself".  This isn't true, but she does have some annoying faults.  The plot is complex, and it's hard to catch everything that's going on the first time you read it.  It's got some good comic characters too.  We discussed Mansfield Park, on the old site, but it got lost in the move.  People usually like MP the least of the books, but I saw a lot more in it after the discussion.

Jonathan, you will really like Pride and Prejudice.  And Mr. Darcy has his say both in a letter and in person, though, as always, you don't hear his tenderest thoughts.  I didn't know there was a Jane Austen for Dummies.  You must tell us what it's like.  If you can manage it, I advise spacing out the reading of the books to make them last longer and have greater impact, but that's hard to do.

[JoanK]

JA thought that Emma was the character who was most like herself. I think she was criticizing herself when she said that: Emma is rather sharp in discussing other people's faults, and so is JA in her letters. Somehow, in the books, although she shows peoples warts and pimples mercilessly, it comes over as much more good natured.

Do you agree?

[PatH]

I had a problem wondering why Mrs. Smith did not tell Anne about Mr. E., immediately.  When she thought Anne and he were  going to marry, she asked if Anne would speak to Mr. E., on her behalf to help her get her estate in the West Indies.  This really bothered me, because it did make me feel as though Mrs. Smith was watching out for her own self interests, rather than Anne's.

I have that problem with the book too.  After seeing what JA achieved by re-working the ending, I wish she had had the time to re-work this scene.  When Anne asks Mrs S. why did you speak so favorably of Mr. E. just now, the answer is that Anne and Mr. E. were as good as engaged, and you can't bad-mouth someone's fiancé.  True, but why didn't Mrs. S. say something earlier?  There was no thought of engagement until Anne had been in Bath a while, and saw so much of Mr. E.  It's certainly true that Mrs. Smith is more worldly than Anne, without such strict standards.

Given time, JA could have re-worked that to make it better.

[BarbStAubrey]

Whew weekend that never stopped - now I have get caught up and with my reading - I stopped after chapter 18 - sounds like this is Anne's story and there was curiosity as to the motives of Captain Wentworth - without reading these next chapters it seems to me this has always been Anne's story since we did not have clues to his real feelings at Lyme or any other time, only the deductions that others in the story made from his actions and conversations with his sister, how much time he did or did not spend at his brothers and the infamous letter.

Had a thought pop into my head this weekend while driving from one part of town to the other - I would have to go back and trace Anne's comments about her father but I wondered if she is more annoyed at his taking on the modern world - seems to me she praises what was and those who keep to what was in favor of the new - I remember looking up and finding the full length mirror came into being during the Regency and the Colonnade in Bath was only built 40 and 50 years before this story as compared to these country houses that were a couple of hundred years old.

Well onward to read before I imagine to much meaning from this book without the full impact of the story.

[JoanP]

I couldn't warm up to Mrs. Smith...didn't feel she was much of a friend to Anne- though Anne had fond memories of her from their school days. Maybe because she kept referring to this old girlhood friend as "Mrs. Smith.  Didn't you think that odd? What had she called her when they were in school?

Jonathan, since your post I've been thinking about Jane Austen's novels as therapy for WWI shellshock - trying to understand how they would be.
A distraction from the horrors of war? An escape to a well- ordered world after the chaos of war?  Or how about this - wouldn't it be a comfort to the soldier to know a girl like Anne would still be waiting for him- even after 8 years?

[JoanK]

We've been comparing Sir Walter to beau Brummell. He was the foremost arbiter of dress in the Regency period. He was born in 1778, so in 1814, I assume he was at the height of his "dandyism".

he is credited with introducing the modern men's fashion of trousers (rather than breeches) and neckties. If I were a man, I's give him a "thank you" for the trousers and a raspberry for the neckties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beau_Brummell

[PatH]

Thanks for the article, JoanK.  For one thing, it solves the mystery of why my shoes don't look a gleaming as I would like.  I haven't been polishing them with champagne.

Men's fashions were indeed shifting from knee breeches and stockings to trousers at this time, and I have trouble deciding which to imagine JA's characters wearing.  Mostly I go for the trousers.

[bellamarie]

PatH.,  "True, but why didn't Mrs. S. say something earlier?  There was no thought of engagement until Anne had been in Bath a while, and saw so much of Mr. E."

I never got the impression that Mrs. Smith was as good a friend, to Anne, as Anne was to her.  I felt the entire Mrs. Smith section just was not believable for me.  On one hand, JA has you feeling sympathy for Mrs. Smith's handicap and loss of her husband, yet she turns out to be complex, while she tells Anne of all these horrible character flaws of Mr. E., she reveals he was her husband's best friend, and they did everything together with Mr. E. and his wife, giving her the insight of the awful marriage.  I felt JA was trying to work in a way for Anne to find out the truths first hand about Mr. E., so she brings in Mrs. Smith, an old school friend, yet I never felt the friendship to be true.  JA needed a character to reveal Mr. E., for who he was, yet she has Mrs. Smith to actually use Anne's possible marriage to him as a means for her self to get her estate back into her own hands.  When I read that part it totally threw me.  I immediately thought.....Wow you are willing to throw Anne under the bus, to get what you want.  With friends like that, who needs enemies.  And I also thought, who could spend so much time in the company of such a cad like Mr. E., as close as Mrs. Smith says they did, knowing the kind of person Mr. E. was?  While reading the revealing truths of Mr. E., I kept thinking Mrs. Smith was being vengeful, for feeling Mr. E., caused her husband to be careless in their finances, and monopolized his time.  A rewrite may have made this a little more believable, and not so cold and selfish on Mrs. Smith's end.

Yet, JA decides to show the kindheartedness and generosity of Captain Wentworth, by telling us he managed to take care of Mrs. Smith's estate in the West Indies.  I expected to read that, because Anne and Captain Wentworth would  want to help her, because that is the kind of people they are.  I loved the entire dialogue between Captain Wentworth and Anne, in the last pages.  I hung on to every word they were finally getting to express to each other.  When he says he has never found anyone to even compare to Anne, all these years, it was so heartwarming.  I could visualize these last pages as if watching a movie, and the love finally being unleashed, that the two of them have kept inside them for all these years.  All their doubts, regrets, fears, jealousy, hurt, or others persuasion, is not going to keep them apart.  No one needs to persuade them of anything, because they are both convinced, they are meant to be together.

Barb,  There is no doubt this was Anne's love story.  I didn't get any particular impression, of Anne's feelings for her father, other than she was not his closest daughter.  He favored Elizabeth, because she was the most like him.  The last chapters of the book are by far the best!  

Ciao for now~

[PatH]

Bellamarie, that is just the sort of objection I have to the section about Mrs. Smith.  But Austen means her to turn out to be a good character.  At the end, she is listed as one of the only two worthwhile friends Anne brings to their married social circle (the other is Lady Russell).  In her favor, she was good to Anne at school when Anne was miserable after her mother's death, and her illness and misfortune seem to have changed her.  She is bearing her illness and poverty patiently, keeping up good spirits.  And poor though she is, she is still helping poorer people by getting Nurse Rooke to sell her handwork to patients and using the money for them.  Charitable works were part of a gentlewoman's duties, but you could imagine skimping on that under Mrs. Smith's circumstances.

Eventually, JA might have figured out a way to make this more believable.

JoanP, a note in my book says that "Mrs. Smith" would be the only proper way for Anne to refer to her, even though they were friends.

[bellamarie]

I found this article which I thought interesting, because it touches on what PatH., and I have been discussing about how we feel JA may have needed more time to rewrite some parts of the ending, especially the Mrs. Smith dialogue.  Seems others agree:

"Virginia Woolf said that “the stiffness and bareness of the first chapters” suggest that “she was one of those writers who lay their facts out rather baldly in the first version and then go back and back and back and cover them with flesh and atmosphere.” Woolf might have been speaking of Persuasion. Published posthumously, it has an almost skeletal feel, like an outline in which only the most salient points about each character are noted, as if Austen didn’t have time to “cover them with flesh.”

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/the_completist/2013/04/jane_austen_books_ranked_and_reconsidered_from_emma_to_persuasion.html

I also like this in the article:

Admirers make much of Austen’s deadpan tone, her wit, and her irony, and rightly so. But hers isn’t irony for irony’s sake: Austen’s portraits of people and their milieus are animated not by satirical malice or mere eagerness to entertain but by a sense of moral urgency. With a philosophical eye, she sees through fuss and finery and self-justification. She gives us a cast of characters and then zeroes in, showing us who and what is admirable, who is flawed but forgivable, who is risible and who is truly vile. Delivered economically, her judgments are not only clever but perspicacious, humane, and, for the most part, convincing. Her real subject is not the love lives of barely post-adolescent girls, but human nature and society. Austen wrote stories that show us how we think.

After seeing, "who is flawed but forgivable"  I could easily see why Anne and Captain Wentworth, would keep Mrs. Smith and Lady Russell on as close friends.  PatH., you made an excellent reference to Mrs. S. being there for Anne when her mother died.  Even though now she does seem a bit bitter, because of her losses in life, ultimately she does come through for Anne.  NOT that Anne would ever have had any intentions of marrying Mr. E., but revealing his, and Mrs. Clay's deviousness, was good for Anne to know.

One last link I found fun to look at was, Portraits of Persuasion.  We discussed the fashion, and how it was changing, these pics give us a good look at their fashions.

Portraits of Persuasion
https://www.google.com/search?q=persuasion+jane+austen&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=8LFmUqDzH5KCyAHFuYCIDg&ved=0CDQQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=643


Ciao for now~

[JoanK]

"Her real subject is ... human nature and society. Austen wrote stories that show us how we think."

I always thought of it as her writing stories to show us the different ways people live their lives, and the choices we have in how to live ours. That the important choices, (in addition to the choice of whom we will spend the rest of our lives with) are the "little" ones-- the things we choose to put importance on, how we act and react to the people around us, and to the thousands of everyday events.

[Jonathan]

There, that's done. I've rewritten half a dozen of my posts, after reading all your stimulating views and arguments. Somewhere I read of a reviewer suggesting, don't just read, get involved with the characters, go after the author if you feel it would be helpful.

One of us, I believe it was JoanK, has posted: 'Wentworth avoids dealing with his feelings. Do you think this is true?

Yes and no. He isn't given the opportunities that Anne takes for herself. But he does, several times before the famous letter. They do meet on the street. And at the concert. Conversation follows. Early in Chapter 20, talking about Captain Benwick's and Louisa's surprising engagement, Captain Wentworth let's his feeling show by remarking:

'I wish them happy, and rejoice over every circumstance in favour of it. They have no difficulties to contend with at home, no opposition, no caprice (he hasn't forgiven Anne for breaking their engagement) No Delays (Waiting for him to make something of himself.)

And then, at the bottom of the page (Captain Benwick) 'surprises me. A man like him, in his situation! With a heart pierced, wounded, almost broken! Fanny Harville was a superior creature: and his attachment to her was indeed attachment. A man does not recover from such devotion of the heart to such a woman! He ought not - he does not.'

Wentworth shows a lot of feelings here and wants to apply them to their own relationship.

Then at the end of the chapter comes the realization that Captain Wentworth is jealous of Mr Elliot. For Anne, 'the gratification was exquisite.'

What I'm coming to follows the anguish and anxieties that have followed Anne through Chapters 19 and 20

Chapter 21 begins with Anne on her way to see her friend Mrs Smith. What fun to accompany her:

'Prettier musings of high-wrought love and eternal constancy, could never have passed along the streets of Bath, than Anne was sporting  with from Camden-den  to Westgate-buildings. It was almost enough to spread purification and perfume all the way.'

he loves...he loves me not...he loves me...

[BarbStAubrey]

Well for heavens sake - I did read this years and years ago - It had to be in high School - reading Mrs. Smiths story is when it all came back - it was learning all about a story within a story. We had only read Shakespeare where there was a play within a play - I forgot now which of his plays - it had to be either Macbeth or Hamlet when the visiting players tell the tale that implicated the king and here Jane uses the same literary devise.

We learned how the shields of Knights used this devise of featuring a miniature version of the shield on the shield as part of the design and that the Arabian Nights 1000 and 1 tales were all stories nested within the story.

Jane sure did not disappoint with two of the most romantic chapters I have ever read as they declare there love and affection and insecurities to each other - what a women to give Captain Wentworth a flaw of fainthearted timidity that matched in scale Anne's dependence and sway to persuasion.

Mrs. Smith sure is a great example of just how vulnerable to coercive victimization is the experience of a women alone - talk about having to use the good ole boy system to get what is rightfully yours - scary - unmarried Elizabeth at least has the protection of her father, their illustrious name and noble status where as the others are like the old saying, caged birds singing.

I wish the story of Mrs. Clay and her real connection with Wm. Elliot was flushed out while she was still hopefully pursuing Walter Elliot - I would have loved to know what the tat a tat between them viewed by Mary in Bath was all about.

Is there any male author that has put into words two chapters of love exchanged or for that matter another female author as romantic and believable as Jane writes in this story - those are chapters for not only tucking under the pillow of young girls but to reread over and over by women of every age - I am already dissecting the letter and those chapters to see how I could write similar sentiments with an appropriate twist of words to carry my position as a mother and grandmother to my children and grands.

Still wracking my brains trying to remember what class I was in when we read this - I can barely see a nun in a dark habit so it had to be high school since 8th grade when it could be possible to read this the nuns were Dominicans and they wore a creamy white. It will pop in when I am the least bit engaged in trying to remember. ah so...

[JoanP]

"I always thought of it as her writing stories to show us the different ways people live their lives, and the choices we have in how to live ours....That the important choices...are the "little" ones-- the things we choose to put importance on, how we act and react to the people around us, and to the thousands of everyday events."

Well put, JoanK!  I think that you have summed up exactly what JA was portraying in Anne's steadfast character throughout!  Thank you for putting it so simply before us.

And Jonathan....you've expressed so well Wentworth's conflicted feelings...and JA's attempts to understand the male point of view.  Does she succeed?  Did she ever really explain Captain Benwick's attraction to Louisa Musgrove except for the fact there was no opposition from her family?

Good morning, Barbara - we're posting at the same time, though considering the time zones, you are up and at it much earlier than I am.  Yes, I agree, the Mrs. Smith/Mr. Elliot story might have been more "fleshed" out- do you get the feeling that she was rushing to finish as she wrote this, intending to go back and develop the story when she finished?  I must say I'm happy that she was able to finish as she did, before her health failed.

[bellamarie]

Barb,

Is there any male author that has put into words two chapters of love exchanged or for that matter another female author as romantic and believable as Jane writes in this story - those are chapters for not only tucking under the pillow of young girls but to reread over and over by women of every age - I am already dissecting the letter and those chapters to see how I could write similar sentiments with an appropriate twist of words to carry my position as a mother and grandmother to my children and grands.

I had this same feeling.  I thought, oh how I wish I could bottle this, and give it to my grand daughter, who has just turned 18 yrs. old, and has yet to have a romantic relationship.  She has had a couple crushes on high school friends, but now that she is in college, I sense she will be ready for something a little more mature, in the coming years.  I am like Lady Russell, I want to protect her heart, but I fear she may experience a heart break or two, as Anne has, but I pray she will know, and feel a love, as Anne and Captain Wentworth have.  JA indeed left the best for last!

Jonathan, I agree, Captain Wentworth did try, from time to time, to express his feelings, although the timing just wasn't right, until the letter, and their conversation after Anne read it. 

Anne and Captain Wentworth's love is a love that sustained time and troubles.  It's the kind of love that has been tried and tested, and survived, in spite of all the odds against them.  I am blessed with knowing this kind of love, being married to my Mr. Darcey/Captain Wentworth and all the rest of the gallant men, who are brave enough to profess their love, even with the possibility of being rejected.  Forty-one years of marriage bliss, for me and my hubby, and I pray we are blessed with many more.  We experienced our very own "Love Story" before we managed to finally wed, and I dare say, our children and grandchildren say, you need to write a book, it's the perfect love story!  It's our treasure, we look back on, and share with others, to laugh at and show, nothing about love and life are easy, no matter how perfect it may seem.

Barb, You ask, "Is there any male author that has put into words two chapters of love exchanged or for that matter another female author as romantic and believable as Jane writes in this story?"

I can tell you emphatically, yes, and many movies have been made of them.  One that comes to mind is my favorite quote from Gone With the Wind......Rhett Butler, "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn." (When in fact he did!) And the most passionate scene when they are fleeing Atlanta, and Rhett stops the carriage and says, "Scarlett! Kiss me! Kiss me, once." (where she is still upset and rejects him) and Scarlet's famous quote, "After all, tomorrow is another day." (Nothing ever looks so bad, once you have the chance to sleep on it.)

I remember the first time reading Gone With the Wind, and crying, thinking how can love get so mixed up and hurt so much.  Kind of like, "Love Story", when Ali Magraw says to Ryan O'Neal,"Love means, never having to say you're sorry."  She was in so much pain at the time.  Yes, we have many wonderful novels and movies, to see the levels of love, pain, and how they overcome them, and end up together.  JA, just seems to have cornered the market, on getting her readers to root for the couple, from the very beginning, and shout HOORAY! at the end, with a few tears of joy for the union/reunion.

After finishing this book, my hubby asked, "So how did it turn out?"  I could not even discuss it with him at the time, because I wanted to just sit and engulf the beauty of the last chapters.  It is a book that will remain with me, for a very long time.  When I am ready, I will read the last chapters to him.  He loves happily ever afters. 

Ciao for now~

[BarbStAubrey]

I thought the story within the story told by Mrs. Smith about their relationship with Mr Wm Elliot was more an exposé of the character of Mr. Elliot that no other character in the story was privileged with either experience of knowledge to share. It was the connection between Mrs. Clay and Wm Elliot that I was curious about - we know she had eyes for Walter Elliot and she is the daughter of Mr. Shepherd, the family lawyer - where they (Wm Elliot and Mrs. Clay) secretly in cahoots with each other or did he think he had one up on her - but then if so what did he have against her - what was that conversation all about where they were spotted from a window by Mary in Bath -

In Lady Russell is the clash melded when she has to undergo an entire mental makeover, realizing that she loves and must accept Anne and Captain Wentworth. That social rank and personal feelings are not exclusive but can be melded into one relationship.

Much of Anne's inner dialogue seems to be about just those differences - her family makes choices based on social protocol where as Anne values the warmth of personal feelings leading the head and heart. Lady Russell was upholding the Elliot view of social protocol but she still had the ability to see and accept that human emotions are allowed and her feelings of love for Anne stepped over her concern for threading the needle of social protocol when a lifetime marriage is at stake.

Anne to me epitomizes a Taoist thought, that the most important thing we can do is to make lunch. In other words make each of the simplest tasks each day the most important, giving our best to every email, every post here, cleaning up after ourselves, all our actions as a focus of our full attention and best effort. That is how I see Anne in this story.    

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh I didn't realize this discussion ended - nice chat - great Pat and Joan thanks for the opportunity... onward to more nineteenth century with Remarkable Creatures.

[PatH]

It hasn't ended, unless no one has anything more to say.

...the dread of a future war [was] all that could dim her sunshine.

Will Anne get the long happy married life she deserves?  Probably.  The book ends in February 1915.  At any moment, Napoleon will escape from Elba and make his last bid to take over the world.  But this final bit of the war will only last 100 days, and be fought mostly on land.  After this, there will be no major wars for some time, so Wentworth will be able to settle down.  JA couldn't predict this; England had been at war most of the time for her whole life.  But she implies a long happy life for her heroine.

[JoanK]

Over on "Remarkable Creatures", we are trying to see how the two books connect in time. If Anne was in Lyme in 1814, Mary Anning, the (real life) fossil hunter fictionalized in the book would have been 21, in the midst of her fossil hunting.

I wonder if JA ever met her on the beach? Or knew of her activities?

[JoanK]

Here is the only contact I have been able to find. Mary Anning's father was a cabinet maker. Jane Austen wrote:

"I have written to Mr Pyne on the subject of the broken Lid: it was valued by Anning here we were told at five shillings and as that appeared to us beyond he value of all the furniture in the room together We have referred ourselves to the Owner"

It is a shame that social class differences would have kept these two remarkable women from knowing each other.

[JoanP]

Do you think that JA visited Lyme Regis as part of her preparation for writing Persuasion?  Or before that...before she became ill?

[BarbStAubrey]

I wonder if Jane Austen would like most tourists to the area have purchased a fossil thereby meeting Mary Anning not knowing who she was - I have a feeling their findings were not public knowledge with write ups in the newspaper.

I am trying to figure out why I have so many pictures in my head of the scenes in this story - granted I saw a couple of movie versions - I do not remember any of them including Anne and her Captain walking on the gravel path while declaring the history of their love, yearning and pain during their 8 year separation and yet, I could picture it as they slowly walked. The description Jane Austen uses to describe what had to be the kiss of the century without calling it was amazing.

Been trying to picture in my head which of the men wore the new long pants and which of them kept the Benjamin Franklin look.  

For sure I think Mr. Charles Musgrove, his father, whose name I do not think is included in the book, his wife's name yes, but I do not find Mr. Musgrove, the others wearing knickers I think is Admiral Croft and Charles Hayter, as a clergyman I do not see him in the latest fashion - realizing the long pants are not anything like the long pants of the mid nineteenth century it would be startling to see an older or rotund gentleman in what almost looks like what we would call tights or leggings.

From the story going forward after Christmas described at the MUsgrove's with the roaring fire it sounds like the highlight of Anne and her Captain's declaration of love takes place the end of winter - apropos after their long 8 year winter of loss.  

[BarbStAubrey]

Read someplace recently that preceding Persuasion Jane Austen wrote Emma - I may tackle it but for now I am excited about going a bit further in this time period with our October selection that sounds like it is not focused on manners but the doings of some curious women.