Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

November Book Club Online

Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier

In Remarkable Creatures, Tracy Chevalier brings to our attention, two historical figures, telling their tale in two distinct voices. Mary Anning is the young one, the uneducated girl with the uncanny gift of finding fossils.  It is the older woman whose voice dominates the novel, another historical character, a middle-class spinster sent away by a married brother to live more cheaply in England's coastal village of Lyme Regis.  To Jane Austen's readers, she will sound familiar.  Both women played a key role in understanding the earth with their discoveries, though not without controversy, at a time when there was no place for women in science. This  is  the story of their friendship which allowed them to stand together and prevail as they challenged the thinking of the day.

DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:

November 1-8    Chapters 1-3 November 9-15   Chapters 4-5 November 16-22  Chapters 6-7 November 23-30 Chapters 8-10

SOME TOPICS FOR DISCUSSION

 Chapters 6-7

Chapter 6 begins with Elizabeth's reflection that digging her out of the sand and rocks to save Mary's life didn't bring them closer together but drove them apart. What/who are the catalysts that drive Elizabeth and Mary apart?

What do Elizabeth and Mary each think of the men who come into their lives, Mr. Buckland and Lt. Colonel Birch? How do each of them react to each of the men and to each other?

What is your opinion of Lt. Col. Birch? Do any of his actions cause your view of him to change during the chapter?

What happens at the end of Chapter 6 to cause Elizabeth to weep, not for Mary but for herself?

What do you think of the confrontation between Elizabeth and Mary in Chapter 7? What seems to be happening to their relationship?

How does Mary change and what causes her to do so? Does Mary learn anything, or come to terms with anything, about her life?

Related Links:
Comments from the Prediscussion of this novel ;   Video ~ Tracy Chevalier on Writing Remarkable Creatures; The Annings' House and Shop;

DLs: AdoAnnie,   BarbStAubrey,   Marcie,  JoanP

[bookad]

sorry am playing catch up with re-reading to keep current and not give the later chapters into our talk

but BarbStAubrey--how on earth do you cross reference to  be able to get a ``Bleak House `reference to coincide with our current book...amazing! r142

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[bookad]

I am posting this in the race to catch up but the reference to Buckland urinating and not paying mind to the ladies I was wondering showed his not being concerned with them as they were of a lesser linage, inferior class, and not to be concerned with; so he just used the facilities at hand

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[marcie]

You could be right, bookad. Buckland doesn't seem to be very concerned with the niceties or emotional life of people, of whatever class. He seems very focused on what he cares about and that seems to be fossils.

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh yes, that is the best yet isn't it since we learn in this chapter he does not even think to pay for the doctor care for Fanny much less Mary since he did have the money and he had to be blind to everything not to realize these two girls were living in poverty - Molly sure keeps coming up showing us her strong sense of integrity - I am impressed.

[JoanP]

Here's what puzzles me.  We know Mary Anning, Elizabeth Philpot and William Buckland  were all real people, not Chevalier's fiction.  Is she taking liberties creating a triangle here for Buckland's affection...or is there documented evidence somewhere, letters or something...that confirm both had feelings for the same man?  Are you reading this as fiction?

[marcie]

Chevalier might be surmising that the two women, one a spinster and one a young woman who also probably doesn't see much of a future for herself with any man around Lyme, would size up almost any man who takes an interest in what they are doing as a potential suitor. I don't think it's a "triangle" since Buckland doesn't seem interested in either of them in that way.

[salan]

My opinion of the col. changed somewhat when, after learning of Mary's plight, he held the auction to raise money for the family and to give Mary credit.  I am glad he did that.
Sally 

[JoanP]

"I don't think it's a "triangle" since Buckland doesn't seem interested in either of them in that way."

Well, okay - it wouldn't strain credibility to surmise that both of these women would consider this unattached  young man who obviously shows such interest in their pursuits a "potential suitor" - but did the author go beyond ...Do you feel she went too far in explicitly describing  Mary's relationship with Col. Birch?  She must have been basing this on more than village gossip- (..referring to the last meeting between Mary and the colonel, which Mary initiated.)  Do you think that this too is something Ms. Chevalier "surmised" occurred - for the sake of her story?

Sally, my opinion of him changed too.  I was more surprised than anything else. The second man who took what was Mary's and claimed as his own.  Why do you think he reacted to E. Philpot's words in this extremely generous way?  Was he just now realizing how he had left Mary?  Maybe I'm cynical.  I think this really occurred, that the Colonel actually sold off his collection and paid Mary Anning from the proceeds - but for reasons other than stated here.

[Steph]

I guess I am maybe the only one who thinks of Mary as Elizabeths surrogate daughter.. It just strikes me that Elizabeth needs someone to teach and love..

[bookad]

I too feel both women were vying for a life with someone interested in their interest of 'fossils' and better yet of a class move 'up the ladder' .....sadly for them he wasn't interested in either Mary or Elizabeth; but if he had married one of them what would their future look like, perhaps he would have insisted they remain in their home and not doing unlady like pursuits as walking by themselves thru all types of weather along shorelines

it was so nice to read that the colonel could have some compassion and do something so uncharacteristic for the men of his class who had been taking advantage of Mary's help and knowledge in searching for fossils.
....was that fiction or fact !!!!!!!!!

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[marcie]

Lt. Colonel Birch is markedly different from Mr. Buckland. He definitely means to make an impression. He drops the Lt. and wears his uniform everywhere even though he is retired.  He is gregarious and does pay attention to women. I picture him as an older Willoughby (from Jane Austen's Sense and Sensibility). I don't think he meant to hurt Mary. He, like Willoughby, is attractive, very attracted to women, spontaneous, thinks mostly about his own situation .... and is without funds.

My opinion of  him changed for the better when he held the auction. He seemed to genuinely care for (maybe even be in love with) Mary. However he needs to marry a woman of means since he has no money of his own.


Here is a different view of Birch at http://fossilsandotherlivingthings.blogspot.com/2010/01/paleontologist-mary-anning-deserved.html. He interprets Chevalier's portrayal of Birch as being a cad. He cites a couple of biographies of Mary and how they portray Lt. Col Birch.

What do you think of Colonel Birch?

[bellamarie]

Steph, I totally agree with you.  I do see Eliz as a surrogate mother to Mary.  Maybe, Mary's mother Molly does too, and that would explain the jealousy. Since Molly is taking more control with Mary's fossils, I can see less of Eliz in the story. 

Ciao for now~

[JoanP]

I see Elizabeth wanting to protect Mary from those who take advantage of her...much as a mother would do.  But more, I see her as a friend to Mary...and a mentor.

Gosh, Marcie. The Amazon review you posted completely debunks Chevalier's portrayal of the the colonel!

[marcie]

 Joan, I too think that Elizabeth is acting as a friend and mentor for Mary.

Steph and Bellamarie, I do see some motherly instincts... and I see some jealousy too.

Joan, yes, that review does portray Birch as unfeeling.

[JoanP]

Elizabeth considers herself a spinster, yet finds herself hoping for more...first when Mr.  Buckland comes on the scene and shows interest in her fossil fish...and then Col. Birch.  She found him attractive, though he treats her fish fossils with sarcasm.  Elizabeth didn't forget the fact that he showed no interest in her - or in her fish.

She didn't trust him...or any man "who leads with his hair."  I think I understand what she means by that. I've always been turned off by men who are preoccupied with their hair.

Chevalier has portrayed Elizabeth as a judge of character, even though her judgement is clouded by her personal disappointment in the colonel's lack of romantic interest in her.  Was she fair in her accessment?

The man is a  "collector."  The question seems to be...is he in Lyme Regis to collect Mary's specimens, or is he also looking for a little romance?  I thought it might have been wishful thinking on Mary's part, until she confesses that he's kissing her.

Was Elizabeth right not to trust him?  Is he taking advantage of Mary's infatuation - for the world to see?  Poor Elizabeth!  What would you have done in her position? What COULD you have done?

[Steph]

I think Elizabeth went from being a confirmed spinster to a woman who saw a man that appealed to her.  He was after someone with money, so she didnt suit.. I was holding my breath about Mary because I honestly thought he was trying to have his way with her for no reason other than  he could.

[marcie]

As you say, Joan, Elizabeth does seem interested in Buckland, though he seems insensitive to anyone's attention to him, and she gives up on  him. I do think that, as you said, Steph,  she is attracted to Birch, who is very attractive to women. She doesn't perceive him as bad enough to turn her off completely.

And I do think that she is jealous of Mary so that her warnings to her don't seem to Mary to be solely in her best interest. She detects Elizabeth's jealousy. I don't see what Elizabeth can do, given that her own feelings keep getting in the way when she tries to talk to Mary.

Mary seems to be completely infatuated. I still am seeing Chevalier's interpretation of Birch as a "Willoughby" character -- and seeing him as caring for Mary but not enough to marry her in his financial circumstances.

[BarbStAubrey]

Finally finished the chapter last night - I am not seeing Elizabeth as falling for any of these guys - I think she is coming to terms with what it means to be a single women at this time in history and because of her class, she feels bound by social mores that she sees are not expected of Mary.

I do not think she is so much jealous of Mary as jealous of the freedom she sees Mary take and how Mary can freely fantasize that a man will give her serious attention so that Mary is willing to be a doormat for the Colonial where as, Elizabeth is not willing to sell her soul as it appears she sees it, just to have a man and yet, she knows that is what is required.

The difference I think is the women who do marry are willing to do what it takes which is somewhat softened by their  romantic inner feelings attracting them to certain men that we read about in Persuasion - none of these men show the care for either woman that we saw shown by Captain Wentworth. I see no romantic attraction between Elizabeth and any of the male characters. I see her balancing her freedom to hunt versus being tied to a man and his home that will allow her to feel she is successful as a woman.

I see the entire chapter a litany of acceptable social behaviors for a young married woman that Elizabeth feels acutely in London. I also see the experience sneaking off with her brother as a way to slip in her unheralded contribution to science.  

The Colonial may have sold his collection at auction and he may have announced to the world the value Mary has to collectors however, the idea that the Colonial had a fit of conscious to me is pure fiction -

I have yet to hear of or see a man who takes a woman for granted in his aim for success and have any inkling how that behavior is hurtful - I think it is fantasy for anyone to imagine they are going to be acknowledged with apology like behavior that comes from a true recognition by the perpetrator of the injury they caused. That would be like denying their own core that includes doing whatever it takes for their personal success.

Once they make it and are at the top of their game they may give homage to all the folks who helped them get there but they do not question their own behavior that got them there. As to the Colonial - he wanted his collection to be seen and so rather than donate it to a museum knowing no museum could pay him what he could gain by an auction - he also looked at the brinksmanship of all these scientific collectors coming to him to further their own collections.

I see this auction accomplishing much for the Colonial and by recognizing Mary again, he adds to his own luster - if this was only about compensating Mary, the Annings would have been pleased with far less than the proceeds of this auction - as the head of a charity for the Annings this was a coup that may have been the basis of the money Mary used to buy her house on Broad Street. But as written, as a mea culpa to his treatment of Mary I believe is poetic license by Tracy Chevalier.

[marcie]

I appreciate your interpretation, Barbara. Chevalier is certainly able to create a very detailed world ... that we can agree with or dissent from.

I found the ending of Chapter 6 very interesting. What happens at the end of this chapter to cause Elizabeth to weep, not for Mary but for herself?

[Steph]

Elizabeth seems to have realized that Mary will become famous, but that
Elizabeth and her fish never will to that extent, at least that is how I thought of her tears..

[bookad]

I think I got carried away when reading the chapter; thinking like a harlequin romance that 'happily eve-after ' would follow.....but when I think of it, even with 'pygmalion' Eliza did not get her professor...he was so involved in his inner world of friends and pursuits , he only used Eliza to prove a point .....these men in the novel were using Mary to follow and further their education of their interests, and better themselves in the eyes of their peers; that would never involve marrying a lower class woman.

I do wish somewhere the author had followed up on her 'leading with their eyes, nose etc' and curious as to where that came from for her

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[bellamarie]

So these chapters are dealing with the possible love stories in Mary and Eliz's life.  I liked the time Birch and Mary had, while he was in Lyme.  It was nice to see Mary happy, hopeful and in love.  I think Birch was a bit smitten with Mary, even though he had other motives for befriending her.  Eliz showed a side of herself that I did not care for.  She was begrudging Mary a chance for attention and happiness.  Why?  I realize she wanted Birch to show her his attention, considering she was more age and social appropriate, but she really got mean spirited.

Marcie, "I found the ending of Chapter 6 very interesting. What happens at the end of this chapter to cause Elizabeth to weep, not for Mary but for herself?"

I think Eliz's tears were for many reasons, I think she was grateful Birch proved to do the right and decent thing, by holding the auction for Mary and her family.  I also saw her tears of relief, from all the worry, and disappointment that she had been feeling, thinking Birch was such a horrible man, who used Mary for his own gain.  She also was elated to know Mary would not only get a financial windfall from the auction, but she also gets the recognition so well deserved.  I'm not sure Mary's tears had anything to do with her own self, unless she has come to terms of being a spinster, which she would be sad about, realizing there is no hope for her to experience the kiss of a man, the love of a spouse, or the joy of having a child of her very own.  She may see her sister as a hopeless romantic, reading Jane Austin's love stories, that end happily ever after, but in all reality Eliz showed in these two chapters it is something she was hoping for herself, with either Buckland or Birch.  Her jealousy of the attention Birch gave to Mary was so sad to read.  Can they maintain their friendship, even after Eliz being indirectly a part of Mary getting her just due from Birch? 

Ciao for now~

[JoanP]

I am having the same difficulty Steph wrote of earlier - separating fact from fiction - especially when I reached the scene where Mary and Colonel Birch "coupled"  in the orchard. At first I was somewhat outraged - these were two real people, not able to defend themselves from what was simply gossip about them when they lived.  But Ms. Chevalier is writing fiction, isn't she?  That means that she has a license to write her story as she sees it.  I'm trying to read the story as fiction.  

I'm with Elizabeth.  I think Birch took advantage of our Mary.  Although she is of age - she's 21. At least he told her he can not marry her. Have to give him that...    Elizabeth feels that he is not an honorable man -

She told Margaret, referring directly to Jane Austen's Persuasion-

"Life itself is far messier and didn't end so tidily with the heroine making the right match.  We Philpot sisters were the very embodiement of that frayed life.  I did not need novels to remind me of what I missed."

I think that's why Elizabeth wept - for the life she knows she missed - and the life she feels Mary will miss.

[Steph]

That whole little episode has caused me great trouble. It simply did not fit into the rest of the book for me.. Maybe the requisite romance.. hmm. I am deciding to ignore it completely.

[bellamarie]

Steph, I have to admit there are a few things I have had to choose to ignore, because I see it just not making sense to the storyline.  It's almost like our author is a bit clumsy with trying to create romance for the story.  Eliz thinks these men are not honorable for Mary, yet Chavelier allows Eliz to hope she could have them for herself.  Why on earth would anyone want a man who she sees not honorable for her friend.  When may I ask did Birch manage to kiss Mary, without her chaperon Eliz seeing?  I felt like when that was revealed it was going to prove Mary made this up, because this just doesn't fit.  Also, Birch holding the auction, AFTER Eliz speaks with him did not ring true for me.  He goes to Lyme for selfish reasons to add to his personal collection, he befriends Mary, takes the finds and claims them as his own (full well knowing Mary found them and allowed him to think he did), then a talk with Eliz he just decides to hold the auction and get rid of his collection.  That is just too drastic for me.  I seriously could not believe this. 

I have been reading the entire book as fiction, only acknowledging the truth of the fossils, museums, and the actual names of these people we know lived.  As for their feelings and interactions, I just find too many inconsistencies.  I can't even relate to this story taking place in the 1800's, because for some reason I keep feeling the author has modernized it.  I have read many of Jane Austin's books and other books that take place in this era, and felt as if I was actually there in that time frame.  I am not feeling it in this book.  Eliz, sneaking out, walking alone in Bath, entering the museum, approaching Col. Birch, catching a cab, none of this fits for me.  Her entire reactions to Mary and Birch turns Eliz's character into an entirely different person, yet the author is trying to convince the reader she still has Mary's best interest at heart.

Chavelier is losing me, or maybe I lost my interest after knowing too much about the factual characters and their real lives.  I like where you can fill in the gaps, (as Chavelier stated), but I don't like Rubik's cube, where characters are being twisted and turned to fit scenes that don't seem to fit in the storyline.  IMO

Ciao for now~

   

[marcie]

I appreciate everyone's perspectives. I agree that in a historical novel it IS difficult to know what is fiction and what is based strictly on facts -- unless one has studied a lot about the life of the person. Since we don't know of any diaries, it seems that Chevalier is filling in many gaps with her own interpretations. It did seem a little out of character for Mary to initiate a "love" scene with Birch, though she is an outsider from her society and thinks this will be her only chance to be with a man.

[bellamarie]

I was curious about what the Rules of Etiquette were back in England in the 1800's, because after reading Mary and Birch had kissed, it seemed by right he would have had to marry her.  This site also addresses how women were not allowed to walk alone in public, streets and sidewalks as Eliz was doing, nor could they attend functions without a chaperon, such as the auction she went to by herself, or ride in a cab alone.  So it seems our author has gone outside the rules of England's societal etiquette in many areas where Mary and Eliz are concerned. 

I found this site interesting because it deals with authors, and how they MUST stay within the confines of these rules, when writing a love story or love interests, in this time era, in England.

http://www.auroraregency.com/2011/03/etiquette-and-customs-courtship-in.html

Women had to wait for men to make the first move. They couldn't express interest in a young man openly, and had to resort to the time-honored methods of using go-betweens (a friend or her brother) to drop a hint to the fellow in question. They couldn't even dance with the same man more than twice in the same night--I'll get into the etiquette of the ballroom in a later post. If I go into that now, there won't be another post on the front page of the blog this one will be so long. And until the man made his intentions known--i.e. proposed to the young lady and was accepted--the girl had to behave as if she had no clue he was interested at all. She definitely couldn't confess to him that she loved him. She couldn't indicate by sign, expression or behavior that she was aware of any interest on his part in her person. (Which, if you think about it, goes a long way to explain Jane Bennet's behavior toward Mr. Bingley in the beginning.)

So when you're writing a traditional Regency romance, these rules and customs must play a big part in the establishment of your story. On one hand, working with and around these things is a pain. As I said earlier--it's really hard to write a love scene between two people who can't be alone together, touch each other, or use each other's first name.

The most intricate and complex rules of Regency etiquette had to do with courtship and the behavior of young women--and woe betide the Society miss who broke any of this rules! Getting drummed out of Society was the least heinous penalty involved; the worst would be getting forced into marriage with some man she loathed because she was silly enough to appear overly affectionate.

So, in all reality, Mary's mother could have demanded Birch marry her daughter.  This is possibly why Louisa wrote the letter to Birch.  She knew of the kiss and rightfully so, Birch could have been forced to marry Mary. Who was really looking out for Mary's best interest?  Imagine how her life would have changed had they married, she was obviously in love with him.  I did not see Mary, the initiator, if anything I saw both she and Birch having equal flirtatiousness, and he being older, should have kept her reputation from being in question. Regardless of their difference in age or social status, he should have done right by her and married her, since he went far beyond what was allowed in being with her.  I didn't like how Chavelier threw in the kiss, and yet there is no mention of where, when and how often it happened, especially since Eliz was suppose to be the chaperon. 


Ciao for now~

[marcie]

Thanks for looking up those rules, bellamarie. The Mary in the book was definitely outside of society. All her young life she didn't adhere to their rules. Just walking the beaches all day by herself and digging in the sand with her grubby fingers and nails would be unacceptable "in society."

I agree that they were both flirtatious. I think in their final meeting Chevalier shows Mary as the one who waits for Birch and initiates the horseback ride and sexual encounter. It's what she wanted for her 21st birthday. That's not to say that Birch couldn't have said no.

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes I too was getting itchy and could not figure it out - the whole bit about arranging the auction for the benefit of Mary got under my skin - even today as you say, Bellamarie no one much less  a women in one conversation could convince a man, who is on his way to making a name for himself that he should stop and acknowledge all those who he took advantage of in order to get where he is...

I do see how the auction could benefit him and I can even see how bringing the audiences attention to Mary could benefit him - but the love life as written would not even fit my generation over a hundred years later - it is definitely the stuff of after the 1960s. And here we worry about reading a novel if we can put ourselves in the shoes of the times while we have an author who does not seem to be able to do that. Great research Bellamarie - we can all breath now and realize the itch we felt while reading was a clue.

Now I am not sure how to approach this story trying to figure out her point - if it is to show the differences in being a women scientist during the early nineteenth century we almost have to use our research about the real Mary and Elizabeth - the story certainly does a great job of bringing the scientific community of the time to our attention.  

It has been fun finding the tidbits about Lyme and fossils - if we are to realize they were two women destined to stay unmarried and are considered different by the village we do get the message - is she also trying to let us know that men at the time were cads. Either dying and leaving families penniless or marrying and sending unmarried sisters off to a less expensive rural lifestyle or taking advantage of a woman's skill and interest when they show it in more than women's work or giving them stock answers to serious questions unfolding before their eyes. Is there one admirable guy among these characters??!!??

[bookad]

I am going to play devil's advocate.   I am hoping, believing, wanting to believe there were women back then who even with the 'rules' of society  about how women should behave etc, surely there were those who were outside these rules and moved to 'their own drummer', especially Mary, who as a lower class woman....who was taken out searching for fossils, must have many times done this by herself, becoming very unkempt and with sand in her clothes, hands dirty, nails broken, clothes in disarray from scratching at the surface areas before she had her hammer her dad made.....well all this was outside how women of this era generally behaved, .....doing things differently could lead to ideas outside the general code leading to further ideas outside of 'ok' behaviour and to her laying in the grass and consequently the lovemaking.

what do you think?

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[JoanP]

I think you're on to something, Deb. The women who were writing during this time,  Jane Austin, let's say, were very careful to stay within the boundaries, the expectations of ladylike behavior in the upper class women in particular.  Tracy Chevalier can allow
Elizabeth Philpot more freedom  while living in Lyme, with no supervision.  Eliz is freer to make her own choices...though she takes care not to be noticed.  This tells us that she is aware that she goes beyond accepted behavior when stepping out alone without a chaperone.

Mary Anning is something else.  Pretty much running wild on the beach from morning til night. only sometimes with a chaperone, arranged by her mother - when she heard people talking about Mary's behavior.  Women like Mary had very little hope that any guy would marry her, her reputation is shot.  I'm not sure Col. Birch knows he's her first.

Who asked about the men in the story? Barb? I thought William Buckward was a good man - An honorable man to be relied on.

[marcie]

Those are good points, bookad. I think everyone is making good points to back up their interpretations of the story and Mary's behavior.

[bellamarie]

JoanP., " Tracy Chevalier can allow Elizabeth Philpot more freedom  while living in Lyme, with no supervision."

As you can see Chevalier has allowed Eliz to return to Bath and act as careless, and out of societal acceptance here in a bigger city, as she has in Lyme.

"Eliz is freer to make her own choices...though she takes care not to be noticed.  This tells us that she is aware that she goes beyond accepted behavior when stepping out alone without a chaperon."

She is being overly noticed going into a museum of many socialites, confronting Birch, drawing much attention to herself to the point others are staring at her.  It can be misinterpreted as a lover's quarrel to some, as it is stated.  She is being gawked at walking down the streets, with everyone noticing she is alone without a chaperon.  Not to mention going into the auction sitting in a room of men.

I could almost accept Chevalier making Eliz a bit of a rebel with more freedom, in a small town like Lyme Regis, but now that she is doing far more absurd/unacceptable things in a larger city where she could embarrass her brother, her family name, not to mention mar her own reputation, this I just can't see happening back in the 1800's, when women were so careful not to bring shame to herself or family. Too many inconsistencies for me.  Other than the fossils being the story, I feel our author has gotten very clumsy in creating the interaction of her characters.  I realize Chevalier can take all the liberties she wishes as the author to her story, but as an author, I feel you have the responsibility to maintain a certain amount of truths regarding behaviors, etiquette etc,. when writing about certain eras, in order to make the readers believe the author is familiar and knowledgeable of such.  I feel these last few chapters are all over the place, possibly the story got away from Chevalier.  I feel Chevalier went from telling a story about fossils, to trying to turn it into a Jane Austin, love story/destined spinster story, with the hopes and possibilities of finding love and happiness.  It might have worked for me, if I had not just came off of reading Jane Austin's Persuasion, making Chevalier's inconsistencies more obvious.  Jane Austin stayed within the boundaries when writing I feel because she is writing in, and living in the 1800's.  It is evident Chevalier has only lived in England a few years in the 21st Century.  Austin allowed some of her women characters some leeway in being feisty, and a bit rebellious, if and when Austin's characters did act out of societal behavior, it ended in marriage or shame, as I recall.  So far, in Remarkable Creatures, none of the accountability expected has taken place.  Chevalier's men and women characters are running ramshod. 

Ciao for now~

[Steph]

Yes, yes,,, the encounter for Mary struck me as contemporary.. Even though Mary was lower class. They still obeyed certain rules.. A kiss would be permitted, but the sex.. makes no sense. Oh well. Sex sells novels.

[JoanP]

Perhaps a movie is in the works, Steph!  That would explain the inclusion of  that scene in the orchard.

The rift between Mary and Elizabeth seems permanent, doesn't it?  Such hurtful things said.  Can a simple apology repair this friendship?  Elizabeth realizes that Mary has something she will never have. Someone loves her.  Mary seems convinced of this.  THere is no one in Elizabeth's life who feels this way about her.  And it seems that beneath it all, Mary understands that a man like Colonel Birch will never marry a girl like her...which is why she hurls those insults at Elizabeth - her life, her sisters...and her silly fish fossils!

[marcie]

Maybe the inclusion of the risk-taking behavior on the part of Mary and Elizabeth makes a more emphatic emphasis on the "rules" and how remarkable their work --and what it took to pursue it -- actually was. Neither of them was content to just sit by and stop their pursuit of their passions for the sake of fitting in.

JoanP, yes the rift between Mary and Elizabeth seems insurmountable. What will it take to get them back on the same team?

[bellamarie]

I can't imagine the relationship of Mary and Eliz ever being anything more than mere passing on the street, and idle politeness if possible.  They already were estranged, with Mary falling for Birch and spending so much time with him.  Eliz was jealous and some of her actions may have seemed to be out of concern for Mary, but I sense behind them were her attempt to chastise Birch for so much as showing Mary any attention at all, since she herself wanted him. 

The entire apple orchard scene was so out of nowhere, it was awkward reading it. It was like I was reading a Harlequin romance novel.

pg. 222 " An orchard at the bottom of the field waited for us.  When I lay down with Colonel Birch it was on a sheet of apple blossom petals covering the ground like snow.  There I found out that lightning can come from deep inside the body.  I have no regret discovering that."
 

pg. 224 "Everything is so big and old and far away,"  I said sitting up with the force of it.  "God help me, for it does scare me."  Colonel Birch put his hand on my head and stroked my hair, which was all matted from my lying on the ground.  "There is no need for fear." he said, "for you are here with me."

So the readers are left to believe Mary decided to have one chance at sex, since she knew there is no way any man would marry her.  And seeing Fanny with a husband was to show what, that even she with her gimp leg was able to get married?  Chevalier can't make up her mind if she wants Birch to be a cad, or a hero.  First he comes to Lyme to befriend Mary to take advantage of her fossil finding skills, he runs off to showcase them as his own in the museum, then a talk with Eliz, he auctions them off and gives money and recognition to Mary, yet he comes back to Lyme and tells Mary he will never marry her, yet has sex with her in an orchard.  Then tells her, "you are here with me"....REALLY?  Is this a dream Mary is having and will wake up to see she imagined the entire scene?  I am serious, I did think she was daydreaming this entire scene from the time he arrives at her home, til the end of the chapter.  Leaves me wondering and shaking my head      

Ciao for now~

[JoanP]

I thought that exact same thing, Bellamaria!  That Mary had dreamed the whole thing...or that it was wishful thinking - daydreaming as you put it.  Maybe it was? Maybe this is what Chevalier meant with this scene? 

[BarbStAubrey]

Or an extension of her fantasy conversations with Margaret. That is what crossed my mind. Then Elizabeth would have been privy to the ridiculous. This is like watching something surreal - a Dali painting -

Had this been taking place in the US I could imagine since we hear lots of these kind of tales in nineteenth century rural America - what was that one about the husband stealing off to go sleigh riding with the maid or maybe it was a sister because his wife was a cranky unwilling companion and they have an accident so this new love has to be taken care of by the cranky wife and the love interest becomes as cranky if not more so than the wife - the story is not as explicit but there is more than mere flirtation. There are others that take place mostly in the west and then we have the Scarlet Letter that although shunned by the community there was still love between the sheets.  

Hmmm maybe we are making too close a comparison to some of the Jane Austin stories because there is one - forget which - is it Pride and Prejudice, where the younger sister or maybe it was a friend has an inappropriate affair with a soldier.