Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

Our First Group Discussion of the New Year!
  Do join us here on January 2, 2014!

Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell

Elizabeth Gaskell’s last novel, a tender story of parents, children and step-children, mistakes, and secrets, is considered her masterpiece.  Far more than a nostalgic evocation of village life, this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society The serialisation of her last novel, Wives and Daughters, began in August 1864. She died of a heart attack in 1865 at the age of 55.  Wives and Daughters was published in book form in early 1866, first in the United States and then, ten days later, in Britain. The best-known of her remaining novels are Cranford (1853), North and South (1854), and Wives and Daughters (1865). She became popular for her writing, especially her ghost stories, aided by Charles Dickens, who published her work in his magazine Household Words. Her ghost stories are in the "Gothic" vein.

You can read the novel online at Project Gutenberg

Discussion Schedule: Chapters I - V ~ January 2-5 Chapters VI - X  ~  January 6-12

Some Things to Think About

Chapters VI-X ~ January 6-12

Let's bring up any words or phrases throughout the book with which we are unfamiliar.

CHAPTER VI. A Visit to the Hamleys
 Does Molly appear to accept Mrs. Hamley's assessment of her two sons?
What is your first impression of these two boys? Would it have been the same if their birth order had been reversed?
Are you guided by your first impressions as Mrs. Hamley claims to be?

CHAPTER VII. Foreshadows of Love Perils
Scarlet Fever! Does it appear that Molly will remain at the Hamleys for some time, until the Hamley boys return? Why does this concern the parents?
Osborne's grandfather was "plucked" at Oxford? 

CHAPTER VIII. Drifting into Danger
What is the " danger" the author implies in the title of this chapter?
Molly's indignation at Roger's unfeeling remarks about Osborne's poor showing at Cambridge?
Mr. Hamley's anger at his son's performance on his tests?
Or perhaps, Molly's father..."drifting into matrimony?"  Do you consider Clare a "danger"? Is this a bit of humor?   How is the author portraying Clare and her motives?

CHAPTER IX. The Widow and the Widower
Do you feel any sympathy for Clare, a single working mother, who had to work to support herself and her daughter?  Did you wonder why Cynthia is in France?
What do you learn of her background before Clare's marriage to the churchman? Do you think that was a happy marriage?
Who planted the idea of a second marriage between the widow and the widower?

CHAPTER X.  A Crisis
Can you think of a reason for the emphasis on the name, Hyacinth. Why is it important for Clare to be called Hyacinth now?  Do you remember why she has been called Clare?
Considering the proposal and acceptance, do you see this a love match on either side? Was this unusual for this time?
Why does Molly take the news so hard?  What do you think of Roger Hamley now?


 

DLs: Marcie,  Joanp,  Barb,  Pedln

[marcie]

Jonathan, I think that the humor of this book suits you. I like your droll take on the event at the Towers. You say, "At the party a lot of nervous energy left many uncertain about what to say. Very tiring." That made me laugh.

You ask "I find the school for girls interesting. Was it philanthropy that got them going, or was it a matter of training girls for a life of service to the higher classes?"

I think it's likely both, do you? Also, I'm thinking that some "showing off" of their good works is at play. They seem to have frequent visitors to the school.

In the book we find out: "She [Lady Cumnor] and the ladies, her daughters, had set up a school; not a school after the manner of schools now-a-days, where far better intellectual teaching is given to the boys and girls of labourers and work-people than often falls to the lot of their betters in worldly estate; but a school of the kind we should call "industrial," where girls are taught to sew beautifully, to be capital housemaids, and pretty fair cooks, and, above all, to dress neatly in a kind of charity uniform devised by the ladies of Cumnor Towers;—white caps, white tippets, check aprons, blue gowns, and ready curtseys, and "please, ma'ams," being de rigueur."

As I reread sections in response to everyone's comments and questions, I find myself noticing more of the humor in Gaskell's descriptions. I'd be interested in hearing what you all are finding humorous.

[marcie]

Joan, I admit that I usually just take at face value the assertion that this or that characteristic is valued by a particular society and time. I now am wondering if Mrs. Gaskell is toying with the notion a bit. When I read your summation it strikes me that Gaskell may be pointing out the silliness of placing value on these specific characteristics:  "Not only was he thin...but with his coloring, his black hair, he looked French. This was considered a plus among this crowd...I'm not exactly sure why.  Young Molly inherited these same characteristics from her father, so she has this going for her."

When she goes to the event at the Towers, Molly wears a "black mode cloak" that had been her mother's. "it was trimmed round with rich lace, and looked quaint and old-fashioned on the child." I don't know what the expression means: black mode cloak. Anyone help?

What do you think of Clare? She forgets to wake up Molly and then makes it appear that it was Molly's fault. Is her character supposed to appear "scatterbrained"?

[JoanP]

Clare...it's becoming obvious that she will play a role in the story.  But there's something that causes me to question her character.  I wouldn't call her " scatterbrained," Marcie.  She seems to be more pre- occupied with her own comforts, for someone who is supposed to be so good with children.  Can't deny she took some care of Molly - even offering the girl to share her bed for the night.  But then she became noticeably irritated with Molly...not happy she had to care for a sick child after having had to "traipse about the gardens,"...and miss her lunch.  Maybe she's just hungry and tired and we should excuse her sense of entitlement.  How did Molly take her, that's the important question, I guess.  I

[pedln]

Marcie, I've had no luck finding Black Mode Coat.  The closest I came was an article in the 1851 Janesville GAzette, but when I tried to access, the message was that I'd already looked at one newspaper and did I want to register and pay $1.95 for a three-day trial.  No, thank you.

The way it is used in the description makes one wonder if mode was a type of fabric.

[CallieOK]

Yesterday afternoon, I picked up the Penguin Classics version of "Wives and Daughters" at the library.
It's like a text book!   Very small print but lots of notes, comments, suggestions for further reading  - and a section on "Textual Variants" that explains some terms in modern English.

This is going to be like taking a college Lit course...and those were never my favorites. However, I'll try to keep up and will enjoy reading your comments.

[PatH]

That's the edition I have, Callie.  Don't read the introduction yet.  It's full of plot spoilers.

The book starts slowly, as Mrs. Gaskell sets her scene and introduces her characters and places.  But after a bit it picks up, and you get hooked.  I read most of it yesterday, not really meaning to, but picking it up whenever I had a chance.

[CallieOK]

Pat,  yes, I saw the "spoiler alert" that began the introduction, so I skipped it.   

I just got the book yesterday afternoon - on a break from putting away Christmas decorations - so didn't have time to do much more than a "get acquainted" read. 

Today, our wind chill - and remembering bronchitis attacks from breathing in cold air - are keeping me inside.  So I hope to catch up a bit before the new season of "Downton Abbey" and the new episodes of "Revenge" and "The Good Wife" come on tonight.

I do like reading the comments here before I've read the pages mentioned.  That helps me pay attention to details I'd probably read right over.

[marcie]

Callie, I'm glad that you and Pat have an annotated version of the book. You don't have to read the notes but some might come in handy if some of us have questions about a particular passage.

Thanks, Pedln, for trying to find "black mode coat." Not worth a subscription fee!!

JoanP, you're right. "How does Molly feel about Clare" is the important question. What do we all think? Even though Molly is not developed socially (she hasn't had much interaction with people beyond her  home) and she is inclined to feel guilty for her accidental overstay at the Towers, she does sense that Clare isn't taking responsibility for her part in the situation. I don't think she has completely positive feelings towards Clare, even though Clare did show her some kindness.

From Chapter 2: Claire says: "Poor darling! I saw you come into the dining-room, looking so shy; and I wanted you to come near me, but I could not make a sign to you, because Lord Cuxhaven was speaking to me at the time, telling me about his travels. Ah, here is a nice book—Lodge's Portraits; now I'll sit by you and tell you who they all are, and all about them. Don't trouble yourself any more, dear Lady Cuxhaven; I'll take charge of her; pray leave her to me!"

Molly grew hotter and hotter as these last words met her ear. If they would only leave her alone, and not labour at being kind to her; would "not trouble themselves" about her! These words of Mrs. Kirkpatrick's seemed to quench the gratitude she was feeling to Lady Cuxhaven for looking for something to amuse her. But, of course, it was a trouble, and she ought never to have been there."

Earlier, Clare doesn't speak up to say that she had eaten Molly's lunch, which Molly felt too poorly to eat:

"Lady Cuxhaven must have seen their approach, for she met them in this hall as soon as they came in.

"How is she now?" she asked; then glancing at the plates and glasses, she added, "Come, I think there can't be much amiss! You're a good old Clare, but you should have let one of the men fetch that tray in; life in such weather as this is trouble enough of itself."

Molly could not help wishing that her pretty companion would have told Lady Cuxhaven that she herself had helped to finish up the ample luncheon; but no such idea seemed to come into her mind. She only said,—"Poor dear! she is not quite the thing yet; has got a headache, she says. I am going to put her down on my bed, to see if she can get a little sleep."

Molly saw Lady Cuxhaven say something in a half-laughing manner to "Clare," as she passed her; and the child could not keep from tormenting herself by fancying that the words spoken sounded wonderfully like "Over-eaten herself, I suspect." "

[JoanK]

Good question, Jonathan. I believe it is another case of "doing well by doing good" i.e. philanthropy which also serves the interests of the donor.

The scene of the poor shy little girl stuck in that drawing room where she doesn't belong and doesn't want to be is painful in it's realism. Didn't you find yourself squirming?

[Jonathan]

'But after a bit it picks up, and you get hooked.  I read most of it yesterday...'

Most of the book, Pat? That's extraordinary, but I can well believe it. The rigmarole has caught my imagination and Mrs Gaskell's realism and sense of humor makes it a delightful read.

My book has a few explanatory notes, including one for 'black mode cloak': 'a thin, glossy silk, used for hoods, scarfs, etc'. The impotance of it lies in the rest of your question, Marcie, in pointing out that it had belonged to her mother. Molly has grown up without a mother. Is that about to be changed? Is Mrs Kirkpatrick going to come into Molly's life in that role. It seems strange that the author makes a big thing out of Clare (Mrs K) eating Molly's lunch. Half a dozen references to it in the chapter. With each reference suggesting something about Clare's character. Or Molly's feelings. This is going to get interesting.

[PatH]

The scene of the poor shy little girl stuck in that drawing room where she doesn't belong and doesn't want to be is painful in it's realism. Didn't you find yourself squirming?

The whole chapter is rather painful.  The young girl is so excited about this fantastic treat she is going to have, and it turns into a day of discomfort, humiliation and terror.  I started hoping this wasn't going to be a foreshadowing of her life to come.

[JoanP]

It was painful for Molly. To feel for the first time that she is the center of attention...being judged on her appearance - and coming up short. Mrs. Gaskell seems to be telling us that Molly is in fact, a very pretty girl, but oblivious to the fact.  She's never thought about it...

Wasn't it a bit strange that Dr. Gibson keeps the two young medical apprentices under his roof, especially since he is away from home so often?  Surely he must be aware of his daughter's increasing beauty.

The fact that the 19 year old Mr. Coxe developed "calf love"  (puppy love?) on the girl was quite normal and should not have surprised her father.  Is this one of the doctor's traits -  a lack of awareness, until something happens to jar him from his complacency?

What did you think of his reaction - and his "insulting prescription?  (Maybe some of you Latin students - or those of you with foot-noted copies - can translate the prescription so we can understand why young Mr. Coxe felt an insult.)
I still don't understand why the housemaid who delivered his note was dismissed - and not the young man, do you?  How long will Molly have to stay with the Hemleys?  She'll be coming home sooner or later and Mr. Coxe will still be residing in the house, won't he?

[JoanP]

Today we're scheduled to move on to Chapters VI-X...some of you have moved on to this section already,  others are still considering the opening chapters, following a busy week.  Let's not move too quickly through the next chapters for another day.

 It did strike me funny that the doctor sent hIs young daughter to another family with two teen-age boys, though they are away at school during Molly's visit to the Hamleys. Mrs. Hamley tells Molly all about her sons, though I don't think she's trying to get Molly interested in them.

CHAPTER VI. A Visit to the Hamleys
 Does Molly appear to accept Mrs. Hamley's assessment of her two sons?
What is your first impression of these two boys? Would it have been the same if their birth order had been reversed?
Are you guided by your first impressions as Mrs. Hamley claims to be?

[PatH]

My notes do translate the prescription:

R = Recipe (i. e., take)
Of Modesty                1 ounce
Of Domestic Fidelity   1 ounce
Of Deference              3 grains

Mix.  Take this dose three times a day in pure water.

                   R. GIBSON, Surgeon

[PatH]

Wasn't it a bit strange that Dr. Gibson keeps the two young medical apprentices under his roof, especially since he is away from home so often?  Surely he must be aware of his daughter's increasing beauty.

This has been a difficult situation for the doctor for some time.  Even before Molly was old enough to be in danger of romance, he realized the awkwardness of it, at which point he brought in Miss Eyre as a governess/companion.  Miss Eyre is still in the house as a companion, to preserve respectability as well as to give Molly company.

Gibson would be reluctant to dismiss his student for several reasons.  The apprenticeship is a contractual arrangement, with legal obligations on both sides.  Gibson would have to break his contract, though it seems he could do this by refunding the fees.  Also, Coxe's father is a personal friend, and is currently stationed in the Punjab (he's an army major) so Coxe doesn't have a home in England to go to.  So he settles for making the boy promise not to express his love in any way.

Gibson is certainly clueless about some things.  Imagine giving a girl just a few hours notice to prepare for a two week visit to another house, and not seeing that there might be some practical problems.

[marcie]

Jonathan, thank you very much for finding the meaning of "black mode coat." As you say, it's more important that it belonged to her mother. Molly seems to receive all emotional support from her father who dotes on her and she on him. Their housekeeper doesn't seem the warm, motherly type: We encounter her in the first paragraph of the book when Molly is "wide awake and longing to get up, but not daring to do so for fear of the unseen power in the next room—a certain Betty, whose slumbers must not be disturbed until six o'clock struck, when she wakened of herself "as sure as clockwork," and left the household very little peace afterwards."

Many of us are remarking on the realistic way that Gaskell portrays scenes and characters. We feel Molly's distress and humilation during her day at the Towers and understand Coxe's feelings of insult at the way Molly's father tries to disuade him from declaring his feelings for Molly.

JoanP and PatH, you  bring up good points about Molly's father and how he handles this situation. I'm seeing him as someone who still sees Molly as his "litte girl." He doesn't seem to concern himself in the details of her life. He would have left that to her mother, had she lived. I think that the intercepted letter from Coxe is sort of a wake up call for him and he's taking action without being able to think it through. Pat, thanks for the translation of the prescription.

[bellamarie]

I just purchased the book for my nookcolor.  I was hoping to get the book from the library immediately after Christmas, but our weather has made it impossible to get out for the past few days.  We are at -45 degrees wind chill factor with over a foot of snow.  I completely forgot I had my nook until tonight.     I paid 3.99 which to me is not so bad for a 880+ page book.

I am on chapter 2 and will try to catch up with you all tomorrow.  Can someone tell me the age of Molly in the first couple of chapters?   

This makes me think she is not as young as I was imagining her to be.

Marcie,

" We feel Molly's distress and humilation during her day at the Towers and understand Coxe's feelings of insult at the way Molly's father tries to disuade him from declaring his feelings for Molly."

Okay very tired, going to turn in for the night.

Ciao for now~

[PatH]

In chapters 1 and 2, Molly is 12.  In 3 and 4, which describe the village, fill in her childhood, and introduce a lot of characters, she is varying ages.  In 5, where Mr. Coxe tries to tell her of his love, she is 17.  She seems immature for her age, but maybe that's normal for a girl growing up in a small English village almost 200 years ago.

The first chapters seem scrappy and confusing, and it's hard to keep all the characters straight, but then the story takes off, and it gets much more interesting.

[JoanP]

One reason for the confusion about Molly's age is her father's determination to keep her young.  In the opening chapter when we are told of the "rigmarole" of childhood, you'd have to conclude that Molly is a lot younger than 12.  How many times does the author use the word "little" when describing her...the "little girl" got up the morning of the gala from her "little dimity bed" - crosses the floor in her "bare little feet"...to admire the "little blue bow" on her bonnet - "the first bit of finery she ever had."

It is difficult to believe this description of a 12 year old girl.  When the doctor hired Miss Eyre to educate his daughter - his instructions were "NOT to teach her too much."  He tells her not to teach Molly too much...he "wants to keep her a child."
He's "not sure that reading or writing is necessary, but feels he must yield to the prejudices of society."  What is going on with him?  It's a wonder Molly is as well-adjusted as she seems to be.

Hope this helps, Bellamarie - knowing that you aren't the only one confused about Molly's age.  You'll catch up in no time, especially with all the good information in the posts here.

[JoanP]

Thanks for the translation of the prescription, PatH.  I confess I don't find the prescription itself as "insulting" as Mr. Coxe did. If anything, I thought it was rather playful - a gentle reminder that the boy was a guest in the house and owed the doctor his loyalty and restraint in this matter.   I suppose the fact that the doctor had read his message to Molly was enough for him to feel he'd been insulted.  He regards Molly as a young woman of nearly 17, while her father thinks of her as "a mere child."  Again he refers to her as "little Molly."

I was really interest in the doctor's comment when the young Mr. Coxe asked him if he forgets he was young once..."Poor Jeanie" he says...more than once.  Who was this Jeanie?  Not Molly's mother, right? 

Molly is to go to the Hamley's for only two weeks, do I have that right?   Mr. Coxe has three more years of study at the doctor's house...  I can't help but think that Mrs. Hamley is good for Molly.  As long as her sons are away from home.  Molly seems to regard those two boys as fairy-tale princes...at least Osborne.  What did you think of their mother's description of her two sons.  I felt badly for young Roger.  I guess I feel badly for all the second-born sons at this time.
 

[pedln]

Good question about "Jeanie."  As I tend to forget a lot of details, my first thought was that this was his late wife. But not so, as Molly's mother's name was Mary, and it was also Molly's real given name. But Dr. Gibson prefers to call her MOlly, no doubt to keep her young.  So was "Jeanie" a lost love?.

"Plucked at Oxford" (A quick Google search, although not providing a definition, brings up several others who suffered this demise.)  It seems it was the Squire's father who suffered that discrace, and he in turn sent the Squire to a less pretentious, more provincial school. And that seems to have affected his lifestyle and his marriage.  In today's terms we would probably say he has an inferiority complex about his lack of education. But not about his background and the arrival of the first Hamleys.

[PatH]

My book's footnotes can help.  Plucked is university slang for failing an exam.  Since these were mostly big important exams, this was serious.  You might be kicked out.

Another footnote: Fellowships, which provided college rooms and dining, were awarded to those gaining a high place in the Mathematical Tripos; the honours list was divided into Wranglers, Senior Optimes, and Junior Optimes, with Wranglers being the highest division.  Two Chancellor's medals were awarded for classics and one for English poetry.

[marcie]

Thanks for all of the good information here. I agree that Molly has been kept socially young/immature by her father. He sees her as  his little girl and she's not going to grow up in his eyes.... not yet, anyway. Jeanie seems like a lost first love. Maybe we'll find out about her later.

I think that Gaskell might be showing us an injustice in the education system for women. It seems, from Gaskell's as well as Jane Austen's works, that women were not to be taught the "difficult" subjects as men were.

[PatH]

JoanP, Gibson's ideas of education for his daughter seem designed to keep her a child.  He's holding on tight to her, not wanting to give up her sympathetic, loving companionship, fearing to think of her as grown up.  But there's more to his notions; in part they reflect the ideas of the time.  When he debates whether reading is necessary, he says "it's rather a diluting of mother-wit, to my fancy".  Women were regarded as different creatures than men, inferior in intelligence, and their sphere was supposed to be feelings, emotions.  Much education would be unnecessary.

Mrs. Gaskell was a wife and mother as well as a successful writer, and I'm going to watch carefully to try to see what her own attitude was.

[PatH]

Marcie, we were posting at the same time.

[BarbStAubrey]

Cannot believe I am so behind but I will catch up - between coming home and clients from years ago contacting me and then the deep freeze that we are climbing out of today - just trying to stay warm is a trick and a half.

I must say that I was balled over with the starting chapter - she really nailed it letting us know that this is all about station in life and that each station depended on the other so that we start with " In the country there was a shire, and in that shire there was a town, and in that town there was a house, and in that house there was a room, and in that room there was a bed, and in that bed there lay a little girl; wide awake and longing to get up"..."as sure as clockwork"

Everyone in their place ticking away like clockwork however, lo there is a young girl who wants to break free from the imposed authority, the regulator clockworks society. And even more, she is at the bottom of the heap from country to bed. Looks like Gaskell lays it out for us in her first paragraph.

[Jonathan]

I'm finding this book hilarious. But I'm also touched by the heart-breaking situations in which in which many characters find themselves. The poor motherless girl. The bewildered, widowed father. The underachiever at Oxford. What a disappointment for his parents. On my street we all watched for many years as our neighbor struggled with his growing daughter after she lost her mother when she was ten. He never remarried and she had a difficult time. Another acquaintance made a life for himself and his daughter after his wife died when the child was about six. A dozen years later it created serious problems when he remarried. But we could all tell of such situations. Many heartbraking. Many with wonderful results.

Still, I find it hilarious to read Clare's take on her prospects. On page 100.

'I wonder if I am to go on all my life toiling and moiling for money? It's not natural. Marriage is the natural  thing; then the husband has all that kind of dirty work to do, and his wife sits in the drawing-room like a lady. I did, when poor Kirkpatrick was alive. Heigho! it's a sad thing to be a widow.'

Perhaps the doctor overreacted after the intercepted love letter. Dismissing the messenger (poor girl), getting Molly out of the house, repremanding Coxe. And of course looking for help with his daughter.

[marcie]

Pat, GMTA :-)  Your response was more expanded and included helpful details.

Barbara, that's an excellent interpretation of the opening paragraph. Thanks!

Jonathan, I appreciate your pointing out that humorous passage. I am laughing re-reading it in your post. I think that Gaskell can be very witty. I also agree that she can portray a range of emotions through the situations in which she places the characters. She's very skillful in providing details that make us understand their feelings.

[bellamarie]

BarbStA, 

"Everyone in their place ticking away like clockwork however, lo there is a young girl who wants to break free from the imposed authority, the regulator clockworks society. And even more, she is at the bottom of the heap from country to bed. Looks like Gaskell lays it out for us in her first paragraph."

I've read up to chapter 5, and I am not so sure Molly does want to break free.  When she had the opportunity to share some time at the Towers she seemed petrified.  When her father came for her she ran to him as if her life depended on him.  As they were riding back to the home she expressed she would want to be tied to him as a donkey, as he has to leave and go away and she can't bear time away from him.  Does this seem natural? 

I do love Mr. Gibson's dry humor, especially twisting the vicar in knots, and the young medical student, who takes his every word so seriously. 

I am finally up to chapter 5, so now to just get caught up to this weeks reading.  I really am liking the the book, so far.
JoanP.  Thank you so much for the clarification of Molly's age.  I didn't imagine her to be 12 yrs old in the first chapters.  Gaskell is wasting no time in moving along with her aging.  I am a bit stifled at how many characters are introduced in the first 4 chapters, but I assume it will all fall into place soon.

We are still experiencing polar vortex temperatures -35 degrees wind chill factor, and covered in a foot of snow here in Toledo, Ohio.  Our city has been on a Level 3 snow emergency since Sunday afternoon, meaning NO ONE but emergency and hospital employees allowed on our streets.  So being cooped up, with NO daycare kids has actually been fun for me.  i can actually see myself retiring and enjoying it.  Okay, on to the next chapters.

Ciao for now~

[JoanP]

Well, we are getting a clearer picture of Clare in these chapters, aren't we, Jonathan?  Mrs. Gaskell painted her with such sympathetic strokes at the start...but left a little room to question her real feelings and . I too, appreciate Gaskell's "dry humor," Bellamarie - a good way to describe it.

 "Marriage is the natural  thing; then the husband has all that kind of dirty work to do, and his wife sits in the drawing-room like a lady. I did, when poor Kirkpatrick was alive."
This makes you wonder what sort of a mother she was to her daughter, Cynthia, doesn't it?  Do you think Cynthia will take after her mother?  Interesting that Cynthia is away at school, perfecting her French, don't you think?  

Barbara!  There you are!  An interesting observation on class in the opening chapter - though I have to agree with Bella about  Molly desiring to break free of the restraints put on her.  In her own sweet way, she seems able to convince her father to expand her educational choices, but his desire to keep her a child seems to have worked to a point.  She seems quite naive for a 17 year old, with very little interest in the opposite sex, doesn't she?



 

[JoanP]

For the first time in her life, Molly is away from home - with the educated, literate Mrs. Hamley.  I thought this would be a wonderful experience and exposure  to the fine arts for Molly.  Miss Eyre seemed rather limited - maybe just because of Dr. Gibson's restrictions.

But Mrs. Hamley seems to need company - to discuss her absent boys - especially her number #1 son.  This must be the first time Molly is exposed to the rights of the first-borne.  
What is your first impression of these two boys? Would it have been the same if their birth order had been reversed and Roger was the elder?  

PatH, Pedln - thank you for the definition of "plucked at Oxford" -  Osborne's grandfather was "plucked" - the same might be said of Osborne?  Is this why his father is angry?  Is he angry with Osborne?  Or the fact that he sent him to school?  Not too clear about this.  He is drinking the last of Osborne's favorite burgundy...
Need some help from Latin students, or from your footnotes on the meaning of "Voe Victus." -  
Her use of Latin makes me question  Mrs. Gaskell's education - seems unlike her description of Molly's, doesn't it?  Found this:

"With no more education than any other nice girl born in 1810; with marriage at twenty-one, and seven pregnancies thereafter; with all the domestic and social duties of the wife of a Unitarian minister, and the care and upbringing of her children; not to mention a taste for travel - prison visiting and humanitarian work among the poor - a social life as exuberant as that of Dickens and a circle of friends as large - with all this, still, at the age of thirty-six she became an enormously successful and respected writer in a hugely competitive and brilliant field." From  a biography of Eliz. Gaskell

[marcie]

The initial descriptions of Osborne and Roger are interesting. Osborne is the sensitive poet, interested in the arts. Roger is portrayed as interested in the outdoors, and not a scholar, but he reads the more difficult, to my mind, natural history and scientific books.

Their father tells Molly: ""So you don't know my boys, even by sight. I should have thought you would have done, for they're fond enough of riding into Hollingford; and I know Roger has often enough been to borrow books from your father. Roger is a scientific sort of a fellow. Osborne is clever, like his mother. I shouldn't wonder if he published a book some day."

Practical, scientific knowledge about nature and how the world works seems not to have been valued in the family as  "education." Was the emphasis at school at that time on the arts? Reading and writing in Latin? Reading literature?

What an interesting excerpt, JoanP, from the biography of Gaskell. She seems extraordinary for her time.

[PatH]

Practical, scientific knowledge about nature and how the world works seems not to have been valued in the family as  "education." Was the emphasis at school at that time on the arts? Reading and writing in Latin? Reading literature?

Yes, science had not yet come into its own at most universities.  Hamly remarks "It's a pity they don't take honours in Natural History at Cambridge.  Roger would be safe enough if they did."  And a footnote says that the Natural Sciences Tripos (final honors examination for a BA degree at Cambridge) was established in 1848, later than this story takes place.

[bellamarie]

I loved how Mr. Gibson handled the calf-love situation.  Coxe should have gone to Gibson and let his feelings be known.  Using Bethia and being secretive was wrong and could have put Molly, a young, naive, innocent girl in jeopardy of not only not knowing how to deal with such a letter expressing his undying love for her, but as Gibson mentions, it puts Molly's reputation at risk, considering how Coxe handled the entire letter, and letting others know of his affections for Molly.  I did not see Gibson's actions over protective of Molly, if anything I think it was the proper way to handle it.

Gibson’s response to Coxe’s love letter:

Master Coxe
R. Verecundiae 3j. 
Fidelitatis Domesticae 3j. 
Reticentiae gr. Iij.
M. Capiat hanc dosim ter die in aqua pura
“He’ll not like Master Coxe outside; no need to put him to unnecessary shame.”  So the direction on the envelope was__

PatH.  Thank you for the translation....yet more of Gaskell's humor.

So, now Molly is to get a proper education, from Mrs. Hamley. (Is this suppose to be like finishing school for young ladies, coming into their womanhood?) I can not imagine how boring it would be living in their home, two elderly people who seem to be fixated on their two sons. Not to mention poor Molly in a tizzy, with worry over her father possibly marrying again, after Mr. Hamley drops the idea.  I sense Mrs. Hamley is already got in her mind to match make Molly with one of her sons, even though Mr. Hamley has made it clear, neither could marry below their income.  This ought to be interesting!

Ciao for now~

[marcie]

Thanks very much, Pat, for that information about science education and the Natural Sciences Tripos. At this point in the story, neither of the boys seem to have been educated for a vocation -- the typical military, legal or religious.

Bellamarie, yes the thinking of both fathers seems aligned regarding not making a match with Molly to either of the sons (or any man, according to the father!)

[JoanP]

Marcie - that was an interesting point - that Molly never ran into Roger when he came to her home to see the Doctor.  We're to understand she'd never noticed him?


I didn't think that Molly was staying with Mrs. Hamley for an education, but rather for a week or so to get her out of the house while Miss Eyre , her governess, was away. The doctor felt she needed protection from the amourous  Mr. Coxe.   It didn't occur to me that Mrs. Hamley was considering a match...certainly not with her beloved Osborne, but a match with Roger?  Is that what you're seeing, Bella Whether or not she was, it is Roger who returns home for the winter break, Roger the one Molly is getting to know.  You're right, it will be interesting to see what develops here as Molly's visit is extended.

PatH...I wonder whether Roger will rise in his mother's estimation if her Osborne is "plucked" from Cambridge.  (What WILL become of  Osborne if that does happen?) From what you've quoted, his father already recognizes Rober's  intelligence, though in a field not yet valued a this time. 

The title of the next chapter "Drifting into Danger"got  my attention.  Who is in danger?  Molly"  Dr. Gibson?  Mrs. Glaskell has a knack of setting the stage, a chapter or two before she reveals the plot.

[PatH]

At this point in the story, neither of the boys seem to have been educated for a vocation -- the typical military, legal or religious.

Osborne has his work cut out for him.  He will succeed his father, and spend his time running the estate, taking care of the farm and the tenants, doing all the things his father does now.  We haven't met him yet, but so far he doesn't sound very suited to it.  I wonder what sort of job he can make of it.

Roger, on the other hand, will have to find some way to increase his income, since he won't get very much, and so far we don't see what he could do.

I agree with JoanP--Gibson sent Molly to the Hamley's to get her out of danger while he tries to find a permanent solution to his problem.  It's a purely social visit.

[JoanK]

I think the "Danger" in "Drifting into danger" is definitely that of marrying Clare. Her situation is pitiful: that of any "gentlewoman" unfortunate enough not to have a husband was pitiful. Her only options were to work as a governess, or live with wealthy relatives as a poor relation. Either way, she was in a limbo halfway between the status of a servant, and that of a family member.

But Gaskell makes it hard to feel sorry for Claire. She is like people we all have met: all loving and considerate on the outside, but completely selfish on the inside. Imagine seeing marriage in terms of her husband doing everything while she sits on the sofa!

[JoanP]

Reading your post, Joan, I thought of the daughter in France, who grew up with a mother like Clare, who admits sitting around, while her husband worked.  Have we been told why he died at such a young age?  I guess it isn't fair to blame her, but Clare is lethal! Don't you feel sorry for the unsuspecting Dr. Gibson, who believes she'll be a loving mother to his daughter.  She's 17 now.  He came so close to raising her himself, just the two of them.

What do you think of the daughter, studying in France? I can't wait for her appearance - expecting anything from Mrs. Gaskell's imagination...