Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

April/May Book Club Online ~ Starting April 15

Alice in Wonderland
by Lewis Carroll

Alice's Adventures in Wonderland (commonly called Alice in Wonderland) was written in 1865 by English author Charles Lutwidge Dodgson under the pseudonym Lewis Carroll. We can enjoy the novel as a fantasy as well look for the amusing examples of logic contained throughout. Whether or not you've read the story as a child or adult, we welcome you to share our adventures in wonderland.

Discussion Schedule:    April 15-20 Opening Poem; Chapters 1 and 2    April 21-27  Chapters 3 - 6 April 28 - May 5  Chapters 7 - 9 May 6 - May 11 Chapters 10 - 12

Some Questions to Consider
Let's share information, as it becomes relevant throughout the book, from any introductions, footnotes or other sources we find.
Let's keep a list of characters we meet, as well as animals that are mentioned in the poems and ballads.

April 28 - May 5 Chapter 7 - 9

Chapter 7:  
 1. Why would madness be characteristic of hatters?
 2. What is a dormouse?
 3. Carroll originally didn't have an answer to the riddle of the raven and the writing desk, but many have been suggested since,  Do you have one?
 4. What do you think of the surreal version of time pictured here?
 5. Who are Elsie, Lacie, and Tillie?
 6. This chapter is full of puns; do you have any favorites?
 7. The hare and the hatter are supposed to be mad.  Do they seem any crazier than anyone else?
 8. How does Alice finally get into the garden?

Chapter 8:
 1. How do the suits and values of the cards fit their occupations and stations in life?
 2. “Off with their head” is the Queen of Hearts’ reaction to everything.  How come any of them are left alive?
 3. What do you think of the croquet game?  Could it actually be possible to play it?
 4. Could one behead a bodiless creature?

Chapter 9:
  1. Does everything have a moral?
  2. How does the King undo the Queen’s harshness?
  3. What is a mock turtle?  A gryphon?
  4. The mock turtle’s story is full of puns.  Can you identify them?
  5. What could logically happen on the twelfth day?

Chapter 10:
  1. What are your impressions of the Lobster-Quadrelle?
  2. What lines stand out for you in the parody of "The Sluggard" in this chapter or any of the alternative versions you may have read?

Chapter 11:
  1. What are some details in this "court" chapter that you find especially amusing/interesting?

Chapter 12:
  1. What do you think of the "evidence" in this chapter?
  2. What are your thoughts about the end of the story?

Have you seen any film adaptations of the story?

You can read the novel online

Discussion Leaders:  PatH and Marcie

marcie,  I don't think the average person could or would understand the math, so just imagine the complexity all this must have seemed to the children of the Liddells ages.  I read this story was not intended for small children their age.  I can see why.

I have to share with you all, today my grand daughter Kenzie came to pick up her two younger sisters who I daycare after school.  She just completed her last Freshman exam in college and now is excited to start her Sophmore year living with her sorority sisters in the house on campus at the end of summer.  She and I share the love of reading and have written a children's book together.....or rather I wrote the book and she illustrated it for me.  Anyways, she saw my Alice In Wonderland Annotated Definitive copy sitting by my laptop and asked what that was, she said she has never seen an Alice In Wonderland book like that before.  Mind you Alice is her favorite childhood movie.  I was telling her about the annotations and our online discussion.  She was amazed at the knowledge we have turned up about the characters, math riddles, etc.  She and I share books all the time back and forth since her years in high school, so of course she asked if she could borrow it once I was done with it.  She said she loves learning all about the authors and the mindset of their writing.  I told her, well get ready because this one is going to blow your mind!  So now I have my three yr. old grand daughter Zoey wanting me to read her, "Nonnie's Wonderland book", and my eighteen yr. old grand daughter wanting to borrow it.  What have we started?

[marcie]

Bellamarie, kudos to you and your husband for your involvement in dancing. It sounds like you have a lot of fun.

Yes, Alice refrains from saying "dinner." She does seem to be learning the rules of this not usually logical world.

Bluebird, thanks for the site with Lewis Carroll's biography and bibliography. I opened his SYMBOLIC LOGIC text just to see what it would be like and he seems to start it (in the Introduction) in a similar humorous vein as ALICE:

"Begin at the beginning, and do not allow yourself to gratify a mere idle curiosity by dipping into the book, here and there. This would very likely lead to your throwing it aside, with the remark “This is much too hard for me!”, and thus losing the chance of adding a very large item to your stock of mental delights. This Rule (of not dipping) is very desirable with other kinds of books——such as novels, for instance, where you may easily spoil much of the enjoyment you would otherwise get from the story, by dipping into it further on, so that what the author meant to be a pleasant surprise comes to you as a matter of course. Some people, I know, make a practice of looking into Vol. III first, just to see how the story ends: and perhaps it is as well just to know that all ends happily——that the much-persecuted lovers do marry after all, that he is proved to be quite innocent of the murder, that the wicked cousin is completely foiled in his plot and gets the punishment he deserves, and that the rich uncle in India (Qu. Why in India? Ans. Because, somehow, uncles never can get rich anywhere else) dies at exactly the right moment——before taking the trouble to read Vol. I. pg_xiiThis, I say, is just permissible with a novel, where Vol. III has a meaning, even for those who have not read the earlier part of the story; but, with a scientific book, it is sheer insanity: you will find the latter part hopelessly unintelligible, if you read it before reaching it in regular course....."

[JoanP]

Bringing up the rear...  There are so many distractions in this tale.  I was fascinated by the Queen of Hearts...who did she represent in the deck of playing cards?

I found this-

"There are theories about who the court cards represent. For example, the Queen of Hearts is believed by some to be a representation of Elizabeth of York — the Queen consort of King Henry VII of England."

But I find nothing of violence in the life of Elizabeth of York...no beheadings.  You have to wonder what was in Carroll's head with this character.

I've a footnote, quoting Carroll referring to the violent, murderous Queen of Hearts answering the question, "Should children's literature be free of violence?"

"A normal child finds violence amusing and is not damaged in the least...but Alice 's Adventures in Wonderland should not be allowed to circulate indiscriminately among adults who are undergoing analysis."

We can't take this man seriously!

The Queen was furious with Alice - "Off with her head!"  But the King stands up for her..."She's only a child."  Alice seems totally unperturbed by now ...I would be surprised to find her sobbing again in Wonderland.

[bellamarie]

JoanP.,  

The Queen was furious with Alice - "Off with her head!"  But the King stands up for her..."She's only a child."  Alice seems totally unperturbed by now ...I would be surprised to find her sobbing again in Wonderland.

In the animated Disney movie I just watched yesterday, Alice is terribly frightened and does sob once again in the story.

marcie,  

"Begin at the beginning, and do not allow yourself to gratify a mere idle curiosity by dipping into the book, here and there. This would very likely lead to your throwing it aside, with the remark “This is much too hard for me!”, and thus losing the chance of adding a very large item to your stock of mental delights.

I love this quote!  I am someone who can never read ahead, to find out the ending.  I find it much too fascinating to read in the order of the story, it keeps me guessing, and feeling more a part of being in the actual story.  Once you know the ending, what is the purpose of even bothering to go back and read the in between?   I am curious by nature, but never could even so much as shake my Christmas presents to try to guess what was in the box.  It's all about the lead up to it, the anticipation, the excitement as you unwrap, hoping for it to be just what you want, and then the euphoria you feel at that very moment you discover it is just what you wanted it to be......although at the end of some stories and yes presents, it can be a let down, due to finding it is NOT what you wanted it to be.  

I remember the Christmas my son was going to propose to his girlfriend.  He had me and my hubby go purchase the ring he had already chosen to give to her, and had us keep it at our house so there would be no way she would ever know, he was going to pop the question on Christmas morning at our house.  We kept everything under wraps, and Christmas morning he slipped away in the bathroom to let me know they were on their way to get the wrapped ring ready to pass to him when they got here.  Our family was so excited we could barely wait for this big event.  When they walked in the door, I gave her a hug, and she whispered, "I know what's going on."  I looked shocked, and said nothing.  When my son thought he was surprising her with the gift/ring I remember thinking....oh how could she already know?.  The proposal went off without a hitch, and everyone was so happy, and then she said, "I knew you were going to propose today."  He said, "How could you know it."  She said, "The bill for the ring came in the mail a few weeks ago and I opened it."  To this day she will read the ending of books first, she will go online to know which one the Bachelor/Bachelorette chooses before the show even airs. She prides herself on not waiting and always asks me if I want to know.  I always say, "NO!" I call her Snoop dog-dog, because she refuses to wait and be surprised.  It can be a bit exhausting and inflating at times because we want so much to share in the excitement of the surprise with her.  Over the years she has surprised us many times. I must say my newly daughter in law did pull off a surprise birthday party for her last year, we all enjoyed seeing her shocked!  We had to have it days ahead of her actual birthday to accomplish it.

Now getting back to Joan's statement:  

"A normal child finds violence amusing and is not damaged in the least..

I'm not so sure I agree with this.  I have watched many children's movies with my children, and grandchildren through their years of growing up, and the small amount of violence such as just in Star Wars with Darth Vader, affected my son's sleep.  The witch in the Wizard of Oz when she melts scared my poor little daughter so much so, that for weeks she would awaken in the night and say she was dreaming of the bad witch.  She refused to ever watch it again.  

I do agree, Alice in Wonderland the story is not for small children.  I feel Carroll was able to tell this story to the young Liddell girls because he had their trust, and he personalized it, giving them a sense of security.  I also feel the animation and tone of his voice probably was whimsical and funny telling it to them.  Much different than a child reading a story like this by them self.  I watched the look on my little ones faces today when the Queen of hearts was yelling..."OFF WITH HER HEAD!" and sensed she was a bit scary to them, and I talked to them about how funny she looked to distract her anger.

Okay off to bed I go....

Ciao for now~

[PatH]

I've often thought a person was asking for trouble staging an elaborate surprise proposal.  What if the answer is no?  Pretty embarrassing.

Alice is learning.  She manages  not to say she eats whiting, though she describes them the way they look to her cooked--crumbs on them, and their tails in their mouths.  Here's the recipe:

http://www.erecipe.com/recipe/merlan-frit-en-colere-deep-fried-whiting-1459

[bellamarie]

PatH.,  We were all certain her answer was going to be YES, since she had Bridal catalogues galore, and had circled the ring she wanted and given the page to him months ahead.  She left nothing to chance, not to mention they were living together and had my sweet little granddaughter. 

Oh my heaves, we got hit with horrible storms last night and my dog was so scared, he kept me up all night long.  I feel punch drunk today.  Between being woken up I would fall back to sleep and believe it or not was living in Alice's Wonderland, everything was nonsense and the play on words kept running in my dream......I remember parts of it and one that stands out is "believe" being "Bee leave."  I just knew this crazy story was going to get to me sooner or later.   

Ciao for now~

   

[bookad]

such a rich discussion; have been following along, philosophy, articles am so glad I am reading along with this group
just to let you know I am still here
Deb

[PatH]

Thanks for letting us know, Deb.  I'm glad you're enjoying it.

I like that bit about the ring, bellamarie.  My feeling is that if something is important to you, you drop really obvious hints, and don't depend on anyone to read your mind.

[PatH]

There's another example of Alice's feelings that the size changes have changed who she is:

I could tell you my adventures--beginning from this morning, but it's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.

[JoanP]

Oh, I really enjoyed reading that, Pat...I'm running a bit behind the rest of you right now, but will certainly be watching for that change in Alice.  Actually, I am noticing a subtle change in her already ....instead of blurting out her thoughts, she seems to be "thinking" more, and keeping her opinions to herself.

Bella, the quote was Carroll's - in which he observed that children are not affected by violence.  I imagine the age of the children must be considered.  Your three year old granddaughter would be far more horrified than 10 year old Alice at the Queen's call for beheadings.  In the context of the silly croquet game, older children would be laughing too hard to take  the Queen too seriously.  Especially when the Queen called for everyone's
 head!

I wasn't sure why the decision of whether or  not to execute everyone was left to Alice.  Does this indicate a new respect for Alice do you think?  And why did Alice choose to leave it up to the Duchess - who greets Alice with affection, calling her a "dear old thing"?
I thought Alice was horrified at the way the Duchess treated the poor baby the last time we saw her.  Am I forgetting something?

[bluebird24]

http://www.ciffciaff.org/sites/default/files/MockTurtleSmall.png

[marcie]

JoanP, wasn't it the decision about whether to cut off the head of the Cheshire cat that was left to Alice? I think it's because everyone else was arguing about whether or not you could cut off his head if only the head was visible and Alice had an acquaintance with the cat. The story says:

" The Queen's argument was, that if something wasn't done about it in less than no time she'd have everybody executed, all round. (It was this last remark that had made the whole party look so grave and anxious.)

Alice could think of nothing else to say but 'It belongs to the Duchess: you'd better ask HER about it.' "

The Queen doe seem to defer somewhat to Alice from the beginning and she doesn't threaten her with a head chop. Maybe it's because of Alice's size and the fact that she is a stranger?

Deb, I'm glad you're still around and enjoying the discussion.

Bluebird, I love that illustration of Alice, the mock turtle and gryphon. The colors are so vibrant.

[bellamarie]

JoanP., 

Bella, the quote was Carroll's - in which he observed that children are not affected by violence.

 

With all due respect, I have very little faith in Carroll's judgement for little children, considering his background, with hating little boys, being fixated on innocent little girls, and photographing them naked without their parents.  I still question so much about him. 

When the Queen shows up while Alice is telling the Cheshire Cat she does not like the Queen, Alice is intimidated by her so much so she stops and pretends she was talking about how good the Queen is in croquet, that it is very likely she will win.  The Queen wants everyone to be afraid of her, she is like the schoolyard bully, yelling "Off with their heads!"  But she actually does not have the power, since the King actually over rides her, and no one really does ever get beheaded. 

Bluebird, The pic of the Gryphon and Mock turtle is a really nice one.  I look at it and see the sadness in the Mock turtle, and the concern Alice has for him.

[bellamarie]

I found this interesting:   http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/alice/section10.rhtml

Analysis

Though the Mock Turtle and the Gryphon initially seem to sympathize with Alice, she soon learns that they do not understand her plight at all. When she first begins talking to them, they seem to be the only creatures in Wonderland that show interest in her bizarre adventures. By using words such as “curious,” “nonsense,” “confusing,” and even “dreadful,” they align themselves with Alice’s attitudes about the strange situations and creatures she has encountered. They seem to see things the way that Alice does and sympathize with her frustration at Wonderland’s backward logic. Alice soon discovers that their feelings are inauthentic. The Gryphon is too detached to identify with Alice, while the Mock Turtle is so sentimental that Alice cannot believe that his feelings are genuine.

Though the Gryphon and the Mock Turtle are unable to relate to Alice, they break the pattern of antagonism that she has experienced thus far in her interactions with the residents of Wonderland. Up to this point, Alice has met creatures that behave contemptuously toward her. Regardless of whether or not their behavior is genuine or insincere, the Mock Turtle and the Gryphon deviate from the rude belligerence that Alice has come to expect from her encounters. They do not argue with each other or with Alice and make the effort to sympathize and connect with Alice. Their behavior breaks a pattern that Alice has become accustomed to, revealing that Wonderland will frustrate every expectation.



Does the fact the Gryphon and the Mock Turtle do not seem as chaotic, and argumentative show Alice is close to the end of her dream?  So many times when I have had dreams that make no sense, right before I wake up I find myself trying to put the dream in some type of normal, sense.  So, again it makes me wonder, if "we" are actually in control of our dreams or at least in control of some parts of our own dreams.

[bellamarie]

I just finished the story and I can't help but see Wonderland, much like Oz.  Dorothy wakes up and tells her Aunt and Uncles all about her dream, Alice wakes and tells her sister all about her dream.  Like the Wizard and the Fairy Godmother told Dorothy, you could have gone home at anytime, so too, Alice had the power to wake herself up at anytime and return to her reality. So many things in the two stories are so much alike.  When I watched the Disney animated movie of Alice in Wonderland that is when I started feeling the sameness as, The Wizard of Oz.  

Gotta run be back later... Ciao for now~

[PatH]

The last two chapters, the court scene, are a little different in style--fewer puns and songs, more narrative, though still fantastic.  Maybe Carroll was getting tired.

Interesting comparison, bellamarie.  You're right, there are lots of similarities.

[bellamarie]

PatH.,  I agree, I was looking for a really great ending, but it seemed to fizzle out in the last chapters. Do you suppose Carroll got tired?  I have to say I like the Disney movie's ending much better than this book's ending.

In the animated movie version, this is what happens:.

The Queen and Alice are playing croquet. The cards keep following the Queen's ball so she is able to score. The Cheshire Cat appears and asks Alice how she is getting on. The Queen can not see the Cheshire Cat because it keeps vanishing. The Cheshire Cat says to Alice, "You know we could make her really angry."  Alice says,"NO!" The Cheshire Cat trips the Queen, she gets caught up in her pantaloons, and rolls into the deck of cards, she gets out and says, "Someone's head is going to roll for this."  She looks at Alice and says, "YOU!  Off with__" and the Kings says, "Couldn't she have a trial?"  The White Rabbit reads, Alice is charged with enticing Her Majesty the Queen of Hearts into a game of croquet and teasing, tormenting, and otherwise annoying, and thereby causing the Queen to lose her temper." The trial begins and the March Hare, Dormouse and Mad Hatter are called to testify.  The Mad Hatter says, he was home celebrating his unbirthday.  The Cheshire Cat lands on the Queen's head, the Dormouse runs out of the teapot, and there is total chaos.  Alice hurriedly eats the mushroom in her pocket, she grows large and tells the cards she is not afraid of them.  Then she begins to call the Queen a"fat, pompous,  bad tempered old tyrant," as she is shrinking smaller and smaller. She realizes she is too small to continue her braveness, and the Cheshire Cat repeats calling the Queen everything Alice did, and the deck of cards and the Queen swarm Alice.

Alice begins to run away, with the Queen and all the deck of cards chasing after her.  She runs back through the maze that got her there, reversing her path through her adventure, falls into a cup of tea at the tea party table, swims in the tea, back to the hole in the tree, and says to the doorknob, "I must get out,"  the doorknob says, "But you are outside, see for yourself."  She looks through the keyhole and sees herself sleeping in the grass, the Queen and the cards are running toward her and swarm her and she says, "Alice wake up!"  Her sister says, "Alice will you kindly pay attention and recite your lesson." Alice wakes up and recites, "How doth the little crocodile improve his shining tail, and pour the waters...."    her sister says, "Alice what are you talking about?", Alice says, Oh, I'm sorry but you see the caterpillar said___, her sister says,  "Caterpillar, oh for goodness sake, Alice__come along, it's time for tea."

I liked this ending much better because it has an exciting climax to it.  I loved the reversal of her running through her adventure and ending up where she began.  I also liked how the Cheshire Cat played a role in antagonizing the Queen, ultimately causing Alice to run for her life, which brings her out of her dream.

I saw a crescent moon in the dark sky that looked exactly like the grin of the Cheshire Cat, I think from now on everytime I see it I will think of the Cheshire Cat.

[bluebird24]

Where are chapter 10-12 questions?

[marcie]

They are up in the heading now, bluebird.

[PatH]

At the start of this discussion, JoanP put in a link to someone who had made a globe with Alice figures for constellations.

http://globemakers.com/facsimile/globe_alice.html

Among other things, the author suggests a zodiac theme to the book.  (There are 12 chapters in each of Wonderland and Looking Glass.)

Here are the characters he assigned to each sign:

Aquarious:  Mad Hatter
Pisces: fish footman
Aries:  sheep from shop
Taurus:  Mock Turtle
Gemini:  Tweedledum and Tweedledee
Cancer:  Crab from Caucus race
Leo:  the Lion from the Lion and the Unicorn
Virgo:  Alice
Libra:  the King of Hearts
Scorpio:  the Lobster
Sagittarius:  the white knight
Capricorn:   the goat in the railway carriage


Now that we've finished Alice in Wonderland, I think he's mistaken.  We've met seven of the signs, not six or twelve, and they aren't in order.  Of course, he may have mis-assigned the signs; his reasoning is often tenuous.  What do you think?

[bellamarie]

PatH., Now that is interesting.  We would not have met all twelve in Alice in Wonderland, because some of them are in Through the Looking Glass.  Although....in the Disney animated movie I watched, all twelve are in it, because there is a blend of both stories in the movie.

While you say, "his reasoning is often tenuous." one thing I can say for certain where Carroll is concerned in writing this nonsensical story is....he left NOTHING to chance.  He was a brilliant mathematician, with a mind that seems to have not missed a beat in remembering and using all things possible to create this story, astronomy, theology, poetry, fantasy, mythology, analogy, psychology, etc., etc., etc.  

[PatH]

Absolutely right.  Carroll left nothing to chance.  The man whose reasoning is tenuous is the one who made the Alice globe, and assigned the characters to zodiac figures.  Even If Carroll meant there to be a zodiac connection, the globe-maker could have gotten his assignments wrong.

[bluebird24]

http://web.archive.org/web/20110116202839/http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/images/modeng/public/CarAlic/CarAli40.jpg

[bluebird24]

I like the Lobster Quadrille.

[bellamarie]

"before she had this fit___"

Does that not suggest it was the Queen who stole the tarts, considering all she ever does is throw fits?

I didn't care for this chapter much.  It seemed to be hurried along and ended abruptly. Much like our book discussion, as if everyone tired of the story and just fell off.  I guess one can get tiring of nothing ever making much sense, when our mind is searching for normal and logic.

I liked the ending in the Disney animated movie much better.

[marcie]

I too felt that the ending was abrupt and that (after two years working on writing the story), Lewis Carroll just stopped. I guess that Alice had to wake up sometime.

I thought that some of the details in the "court" chapter were fun, such as Alice growing and her skirt upending the jurors and poor little Bill losing his pen and having to write with his finger (which produced nothing) and then getting hit with the inkwell and using the ink on his face to write with his finger.

[PatH]

I like the Lobster Quadrille.

I like it too.  The quadrille is a very complicated dance.  It's not surprising that the porpoise stepped on the whiting's tail.

"Will you, won't you, will you won't you, will you join the dance."

[PatH]

Yes, there are lots of amusing details in the trial scene, but I agree that as a whole, it's kind of a let-down.

[bellamarie]

PatH., and Marcie, I want to thank you both for doing a great job as administrators for this discussion.  Since it was my first time ever reading the book and watching any adaption movie of this story, I really enjoyed delving deep into the background of Lewis Carroll, and the depth of our discussion.

While I would never allow my young daughter be with someone like Carroll, I realize things were different in the 1800's, making their relationship more acceptable.  Not that it makes a difference where I am concerned.  I would love to have been able to know what caused the rift between Carroll, and the Liddell family that broke all contact with them.  I would also love to know what he wrote in the letters to Alice, that caused her mother to destroy them.  And of course, I can't help but wonder why all the paintings, other than a few of the young naked innocent girls were destroyed, once he died.  If it was "art" then why destroy them?  I guess these are things I will always think about when I hear the name Lewis Carroll, or someone mention the movie/story of Alice In Wonderland.  

[PatH]

Yes, bellamarie, these questions always lurk in the background when analyzing Carroll, and it's a balancing act sorting out this stuff when trying to think about the work.  It's good on its own merits, and lots of bits of it are part of our cultural background.  I want to thank you for all the hard work you put into analyzing things.  You added so much to the discussion.

[PatH]

I want to thank everyone for joining us.  All of us together have analyzed this book in a surprising way.  I never realized how many references there were to poems, fads, current books, etc, that are lost on us.  And I hadn't noticed all the mathematical logic.  Thanks also to all who watched on the sidelines.  It's nice to know you're there.

We aren't going to discuss Through the Looking Glass, but i suspect most of us will read it.  If you want, we can keep the discussion open a while for any comments you choose to make.

[bluebird24]

I will read Through The Looking Glass.

[PatH]

So will I.

[marcie]

Thanks to everyone who participated in the discussion, even if just to read with us. I always learn more than if I read alone.

I'm going to read LOOKING GLASS too!

[JoanP]

I'll be reading Looking Glass too - so better prepared than I was for starting Alice - so many insightful posts here!  I have to admit, I haven't been able to finish Alice yet...am still tangled up withe the lobsters in that quadrille.  

After dealing with surprising medical news shortly after beginning Alice, I am happy to share that everything is under control now and am looking forward to the our next discussion - and finishing Alice, while following your comments in this archived discussion.

Many thanks to Marcie and Pat for leading loyal readers through the sometimes puzzling and disturbing aspects of this tale!  Thank you all!

[bellamarie]

JoanP., Glad all is under control.

I have begun reading Through the Looking Glass.  Have to admit I will take my time since we won't be discussing it.

Again, thank you for all the insights in all the posts.  Jonathan, if you are lurking, hope you made it out of the rabbit hole........  until our next discussion.

Ciao for now~

[Jonathan]

What an experience! I'm sorry it's over. A lot of crazy circumstances kept me sidelined for most of the discussion, but it has been fascinating to follow it from that viewpoint. And what a surprise to hear what has been made of the book over the years. How did 'Alice' think about it later in life? She looks very thoughtful in the picture of her, in the photo gallery posted by Bluebird early on. On the left, eight rows down, if I remember correctly. Was HRH Victoria annoyed by the poor image of the queen? How many contemporaries recognized themselves in one or another of the animals? Does the modern reader recognize a friend or two?

The book has certainly awakened an interest in dreams, and I think I've found a book that might supply some answers. The History of Last Night's Dream: Discovering the Hidden Path to the Soul, by Rodger Kamenetz. Lately my dreams have been over the edge. Speaking as an old man, I must say they are radically different than the visions of my youth. Do we acquire more soul as we get older?

God bless you all.

[bluebird24]

PatH and Marcie thank you for book club Alice in wonderland.
Jonathan, thank you for the book The history of last night's dream. I will read that one day.

[bookad]

have been up in Sudbury, Ontario for the past week  ... about a three hour trip from our home seeing a friend who is not doing very well in hospital....glad you left the the posting open for me to thank you for an interesting discussion, am going to look into the groups that seem to be very keen on Alice and other books by the author....love his sense of humour and out of the ordinary quirks in the book....thank you Marcie and PatH ...knowing the story would not have picked up the book otherwise am sure.

all the best everyone

Deb

[bellamarie]

Jonathan,  I had to go to Amazon to check out the book you recommended.  I always read the reviews of others who have read a book I am interested in and I found this review interesting:


9 of 20 people found the following review helpful
1.0 out of 5 stars Beware, July 18, 2009
By Captain Caution (Burlington, Vt.) - See all my reviews
This review is from: The History of Last Night's Dream: Discovering the Hidden Path to the Soul (Hardcover)
Beware, The books by this group are not simply a discussion about dream therapy. I've had the opportunity to observe this group for some time. Over the past couple years they have worked to create a doctrine, form a false religion around it, and even refer to it as a "church". This group operates in every manner as a cult with a leader who is unquestioned and unaccountable to anyone and claims that "Christ" entered him while climbing a mountain high on LSD. Believe me it doesn't end there as almost everything they put forth is bizarre and beyond ridiculous. Furthermore, almost all of the positive comments put forth in these reviews are from members of this group, which is easily confirmed by visiting their website. If you are someone looking for a book on dreamwork or interpretation I would recommend finding something else. If you are someone seeking spiritual growth I would recommend finding a real church that follows the true word of God.

Rodger Kamenetz is a gifted writer. This is the only thing that even makes this book readable when compared to the rest of the stuff this group puts out. I also don't believe that Rodger is connected to the core of this group but it's a shame he got caught up with them at all. He may not even be aware of the details concerning the formation of this group and their doctine, which has reached new levels in the last couple years. Still, when you align yourself with a group essentially you have endorsed all of their beliefs. I doubt Rodger reads too much of the stuff they put out but he may want to and rethink his position.
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Comment Comment (1)

http://www.amazon.com/The-History-Last-Nights-Dream/product-reviews/0061237949/ref=cm_cr_dp_synop/190-0301732-2931756?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending#R1JC4H553R6QB3

Of course there are many who gave it better reviews. 

I have been having very confusing dreams lately, so I suppose it would be fun to examine them.

Ciao for now~

 

Ciao for now~