Author Topic: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online  (Read 44743 times)

RLO

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #200 on: June 25, 2014, 08:57:56 PM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.
June Book Club Online

I ALWAYS LOVED YOU: A NOVEL
by Robin Oliveira



 
This should be FUN!  With the Internet at our fingertips, we'll be able to examine each of the artworks described here  by  the new talent, Robin Oliveira!

This is from a recent Seattle Times review:
"Degas is tempestuous, sardonic and witty.  But the focus is squarely on Mary, working on unfinished paintings, washing her brushes, reeking of turpentine, collaborating with Degas on a journal of etchings, thinking about “the essential talent of seeing.” Mary Cassatt comes alive as disciplined, socially acute, outspoken and stoic in facing down her self-doubt."

Related links:
Vocabulary Help
National Gallery of Art Exhibition of Degas/Cassatt paintings
Portrait of Mary Ellison ~ Mary Cassatt
Mary Cassatt's many paintings
Links to Impressionist Art discussed in this book
Interview with Robin Oliveira concerning those letters

Discussion Schedule:

June 1-2    1926                Prologue
June 3-6      1877              Chapters One - Nine  
June 7-13    1877 cont.     Chapters Ten - Nineteen  
June 14-16  1878              Chapters Twenty - Twenty Six                
June 17-22 1879               Chapters Twenty Seven - Thirty Five
June 23-27 1880               Chapters Thirty Six - Forty Four
June 28-30  1881-3           Chapters Forty Five - Fifty Three
 

June 28-  Chapters Forty Five - Fifty Three  1881-83
  
1.  Sixth Impressionist Exhibition: "Mary Cassatt's work exceeded anything she ever did."  What did she enter into the 1881 exhibition?  Do you have any favorite Cassatt paintings from the later years?

2.  Everything had changed with Edgar, though  they saw one another on a regular basis. Is the sexual tension completely gone?

3.  "She did not think about Edgar, though of course she did."   What is the meaning  of this observation?   That she isn't over him?

4.  Do you think Ms. Oliveira used Berthe Morisot and Eduard Manet's affair as an example of what Mary Cassatt and Edgar Degas were  trying to avoid?

5.  "Had she given in and allowed herself to become hopelessly entangled..."  Isn't that what we all do when we marry? Is it the state of matrimony  that they both fear?

6.  What do you know of the Dreyfus Affair?  Was this the real reason leading to the estrangement between Mary Cassatt and Degas?

7.  What did you think of Degas' response to Julie Manet's question why he didn't marry Mary - Was their problem simply one of communication? Or something more than that? "Why didn't he know if Mary loved him?  Why doesn't Mary know if he loves her?

8.  In a way, did the little dancer represent  their broken, neglected relationship?  What became of her?  Did anyone rescue her?


Discussion Leader:   Joan P


RLO:

I read all the letters of Degas, those of Cassatt and her family (which she did not burn), the letters of Manet and Morisot and Morisot's family, recollections of Degas's friends, Renoir's letters, Caillebotte's, among others, etc. Degas's letters to his friends are very warm, which gave me the impression that his reputation did not live up to his reality. Yes, he was difficult, but he was also generous and witty. You see that in the book: He brings Mary scraping tools, he helps her find a model for Little Girl in teh Blue Armchair, he sought her out, etc.

And when he was with the young model for the little dancer he was studying her anatomy for his sculpture, oblivious to the sexual implications that we might read into them.

bellamarie

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #201 on: June 25, 2014, 09:53:00 PM »
How exciting to learn you actually read letters of Degas, Mary, her family, and all the others letters which were not destroyed, and still exist. I love how people thought to keep pieces of history, for future references and so generations to come can learn from them.  It's nice hearing Degas's letters to his friends were warm.  It gives me a new light to him.  He did show some thoughtful times in the book as you mention, making me want to like him, although I must say the hurt he inflicts on Mary overshadows those thoughtful moments for me.  Not that Mary was not warned by others who knew him.  Do you believe in destiny, and do you feel Mary and Edgar were destined to meet?

When I read the part of Degas using the fourteen yr. old model, and having her pose in positions I felt were "invasive" I never saw him as intimate or sexual with this model, just the positions he had her stay in, and how he touched her body seemed invasive to me.  You did help me see it differently with this comment:

"And when he was with the young model for the little dancer he was studying her anatomy for his sculpture, oblivious to the sexual implications that we might read into them."

I posted a link early on I had found that said Mary destroyed the letters Edgar wrote to her, and that Edgar destroyed the letters Mary wrote to him.  You say that Mary destroyed all letters, his and hers.  Not questioning the validity of your source, but do you have any idea why one source would contradict yours?

Any websites, or books you can recommend for us to learn more information you used in your research for your book?   Can you tell I am an amatuer writer with all my questions?   lololol  Sorry, I am inquisitive and curious by nature.   :)

I hope you will stick around, and poke in every now and then before we finish the book at the end of the month.  It would be great to get more insight from you.  Can you tell us a little about the book you are currently writing?

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #202 on: June 25, 2014, 10:14:52 PM »
Whoops 2 posts since I started this - oh well not going to re-write - wonderful - agree with Bellamarie to learn you had letters in hand - Wow - were you so into it that there was no trembling moment or were you in awe for just a minute - well here goes with my questions and thoughts...

Interesting information - Like everyone here I am so glad you are able to take the time to give us this insight and answer our questions - I wondered if it was to keep the book from sprawling that you chose to limit the artists in the story - I was surprised when I looked up the individual artists who participated in several of the exhibitions that Degas arranged, some whose work or name I was not familiar and in their online bio they speak of the friendship between themselves and Degas - example Charles Tillot as well as others -

I got the picture after the bit of online look-see that Degas was a professional friend with all who were included in these Impressionistic Exhibitions - do you know - was he friends with all who contributed their work -  did he know them separably rather than as if they were a band of fellow artists - were there too many artist friends to include in the story - was there no evidence of large gatherings with all of them in attendance -  My secret wish is that you will say you had to stay within the bounds of a story-focus but I still find it fascinating that so many bios of artists include a tidbit about being friends with Degas.  

And the other question has to do with Mary - she does come across with strength of purpose even when she wavers - was that strength of purpose built into what you learned about her, or did you highlight that aspect of her character - or were you attempting to show Mary as a modern women, who seemed to be merging with the time.  Did you find you had to research woman authors and magazines from that  time to better understand Mary or to give her the independence and strength of purpose that is in the story. Were her insecurities in the story, not in life but in the story, shown in order to set her strengths as if a spotlight were turned on or to balance her so she does not come across as Lady Liberty.

As to Degas - we all have our viewpoints as we read his behavior - I see him as a driven man who has no truck for emotional doubts to be displayed among professional artists. They can slump, rile and even thunder but gender is not given sugar, carrots or apples - I do not think he would have given Mary the time and attention unless he saw she was a serious professional artist and as a good friend climbing the steep crevasse together they both poured all they had into the climb. As most driven men he is competitive, not beyond ridiculing others during a heated exchange using any weak spot and this is where Mary's gender was pulled in.  He does not seem to cat around. To me, Degas sees females as having a role - a professional role - objectifying them as a model, artist, friend, wife, sister etc. He reminds me of a guy in a pen with a cow - you and your horse cannot give that cow an inch if you want it to go where you want it. That is how I see Degas living his life - a guy doing his life's work.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #203 on: June 26, 2014, 09:00:06 AM »
Robin I was wondering.....Berthe and Edouard had a very complicated relationship.  The forbidden love, were they in real life as the book shows or did you create their hidden, but not so hidden love affair?

I truly loved Abigail's character in the book, a warm friend to Mary, yet strong enough to make decisions for her own happiness.  Again, did you have information for her character leading up to her death, or was this fictitious?  It was such a sad part to read when she died.

Even though Degas and Edouard seemed to be thoughtless cads, sleeping with prostitutes or many other women they barely knew, I did like the fact that the two men had a friendship.  They knew each other's flaws and accepted each other in spite of them.  All the other artists that were in the story seemed less important, yet necessary to show the circle of people that were in the group, and in the Salon.  It was interesting for me to get to know these artists since I am someone with so little artistic knowledge.  
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #204 on: June 26, 2014, 12:55:05 PM »
I do believe RLO has answered our question #4 -  'Do you get the impression that Oliveira is making excuses for Degas's behavior?  That he is really helpless, and cannot finish his work?"

It's difficult for him to work with another person on anything - this time Mary and Pissarro were putting in time and energy on the journal - at Degas' invitation.  It's one thing to cancel presentation of your own work if  unfinished, if short on "perfection," but what of the work of others?

Did you blame Degas for cancelling the publication of Le Jour et La Nuit?  From all we've seen, he's a perfectionist.  If it isn't perfect, then he won't make a deadline.  (Even Mary agreed when she saw the prints hanging on the Exhibition wall - they weren't very good.)  Should he have gone ahead with the publication in recognition of Mary's hard work?  Even if it wasn't perfect?
 
I guess where I fault him - not telling her sooner.  He just lost interest in the printmaking process - spent his time elsewhere, leaving her to pull it off - and when she did that, met the deadline, he decided that it wasn't good enough to print.



mabel1015j

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #205 on: June 26, 2014, 01:01:58 PM »
Just read the last few days of your discussion.

You don't want to marry, do you?  All that complication and commitment?  That obligation and boredom?

That sounds to me like Degas projecting his own attitudes onto Mary and i then thought that he may be doing that a lot. When he is critical of her work or her decisions or her behavior, is he actually stating his feelings about his own?

Hoe lovely to have RLO with us. Welcome!

Jean

BarbStAubrey

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #206 on: June 26, 2014, 01:27:29 PM »
Oh dear - to make excuses for behavior - ouch - feels like we have the right to do that - seems to me, like all of us, he is what he is - probably it comes from hearing my Mom when we grew up calling us 'Queen for the day' or for my brother, 'King for the day' if we judged another - on Sunday it was always, 'God will take care of that, you just mind your own Ps and Qs young lady' or again, for my brother 'young man '.

I laugh now with the memory but it was one of my lessons and in that light I've seen many guys like Degas who are more about pushing their dream and projecting their dream on those who are in their arena - They simply take it for granted that you have the same desire, dream and outlook as they and frankly, I see we all do that to a degree when we would like others to agree with our conclusions about a set of circumstances.

From what I have read I see him as strong and independent as Mary, both going after what is best for themselves - he does not play partner very well but then his dream is not as a team player - In another profession, I would hire him in a NY minute - he is all about pushing the envelope to his next level and bringing anyone along who matches his drive. Not making it easy for them just expecting they are also going to respect only the best.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #207 on: June 26, 2014, 01:34:10 PM »
Love it Jean --- "You don't want to marry, do you?  All that complication and commitment?  That obligation and boredom?" That really sums it up doesn't it - I get the impression they both feel the same and now, how does this fit into the theme of this story I wonder.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #208 on: June 26, 2014, 01:38:58 PM »
Yes, JoanP I do see that - he is just not a good team player is he - he seems typical of the owners of a business before the idea of giving those working in the business a voice in its ongoing practices. I giggle with the realization he would make a great ranch foreman.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #209 on: June 26, 2014, 02:57:50 PM »
Jean,
Quote
That sounds to me like Degas projecting his own attitudes onto Mary and i then thought that he may be doing that a lot. When he is critical of her work or her decisions or her behavior, is he actually stating his feelings about his own?

Indeed Degas projected his own attitudes onto Mary and others.  For me it is infuriating, and this is why in the story he lost friendships.  For some reason Mary kept allowing him to do this to her.  After giving herself to him, and he goes and does not come around for weeks and then to show up on her doorstep with that statement, I would have slapped him in the face, and I am not a violent person.

I have given a lot of thought as to how I feel about Degas, and how he works, or does not work, well with others.  He is driven by what he wants, and does not give much thought about others.  Yes, he is willing to give advice and offer some help when he decides to, but ultimately, he is a very selfish, self centered person.  He made it clear to Mary, not to whine to him about things, her work is hers, he is not responsible for her work.  Indeed this is so, but she was upset about the fact he saw she put an entire year into helping with the journal, and without so much as a warning he decided it would not be shown.  It's ALL about him!  He is not at all a team player, he can't even be a partner player. I would not want him in charge of my business or anything else.  For me job performance is not ONLY about how well you do something, it is also about dependability, loyalty, leadership, and trust.  He proved to Mary, and his artist friends, he can not be any of these.  He calls the shots, and it really does not matter to him how much work and time others have applied for the exhibitions, if he decides it's a no go....too bad so sad for them.

Am I being tough on Degas?  Indeed I am, because he cuts no one any slack!  I don't see him as a horrible person, I just would never put my trust in him with a working or personal relationship.  Hearing he wrote warm letters to his friends is nice to know, because in this story I haven't found warmth in him.  His selfishness, and cruelty overshadows any attempts he makes by being warm.  Mary has been on the receiving end and I am hoping this last round of hurt and insults have taught her to back off....as my mother would say, "How many times do you need to touch that hot stove and get burnt, before to learn to not touch it again?"

I am ready to go on to the next chapters to see just where all this goes.  PLEASE let Mary get a backbone and self respect, and stop this vicious cycle of allowing him to control her work, and life.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #210 on: June 26, 2014, 03:22:00 PM »
I think we are seeing   Degas' fears...of entanglement -  something  he has never wanted or invited, Jean.  But  don't we see Mary's fear of marital "entanglement" too? Is she certain marriage is what she wants?   She sees Berthe Marisot and all those complications.  I think Mary wants freedom to paint, as much as Degas does.

She  gets no signal from Degas that he wants marriage, or even that he loves her. He is tongue tied - cannot express what he is feeling.  He doesn't seem to know what he feels.  Does he know what Mary feels?
 So why did Mary give in?  (We don't know for sure if she did, do we, Robin? ;)
 I wouldn't be surprised if they are finished, once the sexual tension has gone out of the equation...

Bella - please wait to comment until Saturday, once you've read the closing chapters, okay? We all need to finish up these chapters first.

RLO

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #211 on: June 26, 2014, 04:42:07 PM »
Bella:

The level of complexity within the Manet household was extraordinary: Suzanne, Manet's wife, may or may not have been mistress to both father and son. Manet's mother arranged to have Suzanne leave Paris for her confinement and return with her "brother." Berthe Morisot, in her letters with her mother and sister betrays an enormous level of disillusionment and sadness around love and courting that is astonishing. It is clear that Something happened between Edouard Manet and Berthe--but, like most romantic trysts, little was recorded for posterity. Inference was involved.

As far as Abigail Alcott Neiriker: She wrote a book, and letters of hers survived. I gleaned as much as possible from those documents as I could to portray her as acurately as I could. I even wrote the Harvard library (or was in Yale? I'll have to look it up--I think it was Harvard) to have them scan the copy of a letter written by an attendee at her funeral.

RLO

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #212 on: June 26, 2014, 04:49:21 PM »
Bella:

Bella:
Regarding destiny: no, I don't believe in destiny. I believe in happenstance and choice.

I doubt very much that Degas burned the letters. He was an inveterate pack rat. He kept everything. And, at the end of his life, he was functionally blind, and alone. He was not well enough to hunt down hidden letters to burn them. Sources often conflict. History is not set in stone. It is a story, and is vulnerable to memory, time, error, and point of view.

I have no record of the web sites I explored. I used books as much as possible.

And, sadly, no, I can't share what I've been writing about. Talking about it tends to kill the story. And, sometimes, novels don't work out. Then you've gone blabbing about them all over the internet and you have to explain why you didn't write the book you said you were writing.  :) So, mum's the word.

And, JoanP? I'm not sure I understand your question? Why Mary gave in? To what?

JoanP

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #213 on: June 26, 2014, 06:03:41 PM »
An interesting question...did Mary give in...and to what? When reading of the "encounter" between Mary and Edgar, you wrote:
"Mary felt herself yielding, or wanting to yield."

But rereading their encounter" I see Degas the vulnerable one, "stripped of his defenses". "Here was his soul, asking for her."

"She did not resist, though she thought she ought to because she was not a woman to let herself be seduced."

And then finally - the reference to willing surrender...and "the fear that she had been enticed forever into the tangle of him."

So then, is it fair to say that Mary did not give in, was not seduced, but there was a night of mutual surrender?  One night?  I find it difficult to believe it was only that once.  Did they mutually agree to that?

bellamarie

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #214 on: June 26, 2014, 06:18:02 PM »
Robin,  Thank you so much for all the answers to my questions.  It truly helps me understand, and see things so much more clearer, knowing the facts and the fiction in the book, which makes up this wonderful story.

I just finished the book and will not comment until Saturday.  I will say to Robin, as far as this novel is concerned, if I may use Mary's words to Degas referring to his "little dancer" masterpiece, "She is standing there in all her glory." 

I respect you are not able to tell us anything about the book you are working on. I will wait til, if and when it is in print.  ;)
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #215 on: June 26, 2014, 11:28:30 PM »
JoanP., 
Quote
I think we are seeing   Degas' fears...of entanglement -  something  he has never wanted or invited, Jean.  But  don't we see Mary's fear of marital "entanglement" too? Is she certain marriage is what she wants?   She sees Berthe Marisot and all those complications.  I think Mary wants freedom to paint, as much as Degas does.

I agree, as much as they may have loved each other, I don't think either wanted to give up their freedom to paint.  Mary may have just wanted Degas to say the words, "I love you."  Mary deserved to be treated with respect after the love making.  Degas was probably very scared of what happened between them.  I don't think he was capable of dealing with it any other way than avoiding her.  With how he dealt with it, it did without a doubt show Mary that if even remotely somewhere deep down inside she hoped for more, she saw it was not going to come from him.

Imagine what Degas would have said if Mary replied, "Yes, I do want marriage."  He asked her in that way, knowing her response before asking.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #216 on: June 27, 2014, 12:38:02 AM »
Finally finished chapter thirty-nine - breathtaking - glorious - a stand alone chapter - the soul of Degas - I want to send it to my one grandson who is in art but 21st century art where he lives and breathes using, instead of tubes of paint, computer language - he just submitted this weekend a project started in January that may give him an opportunity to perfect his work in Seattle with a two year grant that only 10% of his creation needs to be paid to the investors. He lives and breathes his work also with a girl, a sought after artist who he adores but does not own his loving her, just as this chapter describes Degas.

Chapter Thirty-nine is like a homily invoking the nobility of single minded effort to achieve a utopian dream worthy of the gods. This chapter truly moved me and saying it sounds trite, like a suck up since Robin is obviously reading - however, I am in awe at the insight and beauty of describing the soul of this man.

Chapter Forty is just as strong describing Mary and what I call her 'neediness' - her striving to be free rather than, as Degas, striving to create wonders.

Chapter Forty-Two is far sweeter than I expected after the bits that had been shared of their passion - a true metaphor as he unbound her and freed her from the corsets that were holding in her ability to be free.

In chapter Forty-Three the question is so pure Degas,"You love to be loved, even more than you love art. Why do you chase glory?"

Oh and a great zinger - love it - "The two things that didn't exist in their world: syphilis in Edouard's, and love in Degas's."

Wow that last sentence in chapter Forty-Four - at first I was taken back with. "as if she had never known him." How sad a reaction but then, I re-read and it is the entire sentence that says it  -- Mary does not seem to realize yet what she has finally achieved she is so busy nursing her 'what could have been' fantasy - "She squeezed paint from the tubes and took up her brush and began, as if she had never known him." which, when read as one thought suggests she begins painting having dropped her neediness - she paints from her belief in her own ability to discover, improve, say something in art not dependent on Degas for what he offered as if he was not a factor in her expressing her art. She is finally free...!
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #217 on: June 27, 2014, 01:15:29 AM »
Had to go back and read Thirty-Nine again - it is perfect for anyone who devotes their life to a single minded project - I realize not even in the field of art - it made me think of my daughter-in-law's brother who devoted over 20 years to improving the wild deer on his south Texas ranch. He found a small herd of blind deer and created a pasture near the ranch house to follow and learn the cause of their blindness - he made the big sacrifice of reducing his cow numbers to devote his resources to building up the health of the deer and the size of the antlers on the bucks - and then 3 years ago the drought became so bad he lost most of the deer herd and 2 years ago all the cows and deer - it all ended without his achieving his dream - he was able to send some reports that are useful for other ranchers to A&M but his dream was dashed.

We do not see Degas's dream dashed but we know, attempting an ordinary life would have been the end of him and this man was the  à cause de signifie of Mary Cassatt's freedom from her own insecurity to be what she was afraid to see in herself, a great painter...she did not need the crutch of his approval and never realized, that was not what she needed nor, was she ever going to get it in a way that she wanted.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #218 on: June 27, 2014, 07:32:31 AM »
Barb, I agree, I felt that last sentence showed Mary finally freed herself of the dependency on Degas.  Since they run in the same circles together, they will never be free from bumping into each other and maintain a civil, social relationship, but at this point she has finally decided to paint "her" way, no longer needing him or his approval.  Degas could never be happy married, he is married to his art, just as Mary is.  They both know this.

Such a sad story of your daughter in law's brother striving to achieve his dream/goal only for it to be out of his reach.  Isn't that what life is all about?  We set out with a dream/mission in life.  We spend years, maybe a lifetime working towards that dream, purpose, and sometimes some accomplish exactly what they were seeing the end would be.  Others, well, they enjoy life as they work toward their dreams, yet come to some point in life that prevents them to feel the feat of success.  The fact some of his data is useful for other ranchers should give him a sense of accomplishment. 

I saw Mary from the very beginning of this story as an exceptional painter.  I felt Degas side tracked her, yes, I believe they were meant to meet for more than the purpose of helping each other with art, but without him, she would have sooner or later realized how exceptional she was all along.  IMO   
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
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JoanP

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #219 on: June 27, 2014, 11:42:28 AM »
Without going back and quoting specific lines from your posts, I'd like to thank you for zeroing in on the key elements in these chapters that led to the  encounter - which seems to be both the beginning and end of their  "affair".  I can understand the attention RLO gave to this moment...
It is fiction yes, but to me, the high point of the novel...the only explanation of what actually happened between these two.   But where to go from this point?  What do you make of the title, I Always Loved You.  ALWAYS.  It will be interesting to follow them into the future.

I'm reminded of the current exhibition some of us recently attended at the National Gallery of Art in DC - which emphasized the close working relationship between the two artists during these Impressionist exhibitions of the late 1880's.  The entire NBA exhibit was made up of the work of Mary Cassatt and Edgar Degas.  Nowhere is there a suggestion of a romance, but the closeness of their collaboration is evident.

I wondered at the time if you had attended this exhibit, Robin?  If so, you would have noticed the space in the bookshops devoted to your book.  Some of us wondered where the idea for this exhibit came from -  your book?  When did you learn that the exhibit was planned?




bellamarie

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #220 on: June 27, 2014, 01:23:31 PM »
JoanP.
Quote
But where to go from this point?  What do you make of the title, I Always Loved You.  ALWAYS.  It will be interesting to follow them into the future.

Where do you see the two of them going from here?  Personally, after her asking Degas to leave, and she picks up her brush to paint as though she never knew him, (paraphrasing)  I feel Mary will paint with love, as she always has.  Degas will continue to paint as long as his eyes allow him. 

My eleven yr. old granddaughter posed a question to me yesterday out of the blue.  She said, "Nonnie, if you had to lose one thing, either your eyesight or your hearing which would you want it to be?"  I have always thought about macular degenerate, since Glen Beck mentioned a few years back he may go blind one day.  I said to my sweet granddaughter, "I would prefer to lose my hearing if I have to chose one.  I can always learn braille to help me communicate with people, but if I lost my eyesight I would be devastated, because I personally always want to be able to see all the beauty in the world."  She agreed, she said that's what she would choose.  I thought about this when learning in my research on Google, how Degas and Mary lost their eyesight, and I felt so sad knowing that art being their life, so much to the point they past love by, I can't begin to imagine how they must felt the day their eyes could no longer allow them to paint, nor see the beauty of their art and others.  I felt life was just a little bit cruel for both Mary and Degas in them losing their eyesight in their final years of living.

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #221 on: June 28, 2014, 02:03:16 AM »
 ??? Hellooow...anyone there - maybe a long nap day...  :-*  
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanP

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #222 on: June 28, 2014, 09:29:35 AM »
Barb, I've just got to ask - when did you post this?  Friday pm, Saturday am?

Until we read some posts this morning, it is difficult to say who is napping, who is reading, who has finished the book. :D

Before moving on to the concluding chapters, there's a lingering question on my mind.

RLO writes that neither Mary C nor Edgar D.  believes that he/she is talented or gifted. Degas positively bristled at the idea.  No talent...just hard work.   Do you think  most artists - writers too, for that matter, feel this way, have the same   fear that the next idea or theme will not come?  Is inspiration a talent - or is it pulling off the inspiration through the hard work that accounts for  a work of art?  Have you ever felt this way?



JoanP

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #223 on: June 28, 2014, 09:35:10 AM »
The 1881 chapters begin with Sixth Impressionist Exhibition in 1881: RLO writes:  "Mary Cassatt's work exceeded anything she ever did."  What did she enter into the 1881 exhibition?  I'm really interested to see what she was working that year following her...'encounter' with Degas...

bellamarie

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #224 on: June 28, 2014, 11:15:37 AM »
JoanP.,
Quote
Is inspiration a talent - or is it pulling off the inspiration through the hard work that accounts for  a work of art?  Have you ever felt this way?

I gave this some thought and for me inspiration is something that comes from inside you, after one of your fives senses have been triggered and touches your heart and soul, that then creates an idea inside your mind.  I am a writer, and many things have inspired me to write poems, children stories, articles, and novels.  Art in any form be it painting, writing, singing, dancing, etc., etc, comes from inspiration.  A feeling that allows your mind to create, and your body to develop that inspired idea, in physical or even spiritual form.

in·spi·ra·tion noun \ˌin(t)-spə-ˈrā-shən, -(ˌ)spi-\
: something that makes someone want to do something or that gives someone an idea about what to do or create : a force or influence that inspires someone

: a person, place, experience, etc., that makes someone want to do or create something

: a good idea
 
Full Definition of INSPIRATION

1
a :  a divine influence or action on a person believed to qualify him or her to receive and communicate sacred revelation
b :  the action or power of moving the intellect or emotions
c :  the act of influencing or suggesting opinions
2
:  the act of drawing in; specifically :  the drawing of air into the lungs
3
a :  the quality or state of being inspired
b :  something that is inspired <a scheme that was pure inspiration>
4
:  an inspiring agent or influence
— in·spi·ra·tion·al  adjective
— in·spi·ra·tion·al·ly adverb
 See inspiration defined for English-language learners »
See inspiration defined for kids »
Examples of INSPIRATION

Where does the inspiration for your art come from?
His paintings take their inspiration from nature.
She had a sudden inspiration. They would have the party outdoors!
Deciding to have the party outdoors was sheer inspiration.

First Known Use of INSPIRATION
14th century

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inspiration

Onto the final chapters of the story..... the final Exhibition, and Mary is now an accomplished, recognized, acclaimed artist according to the critics, her colleagues, and public alike.  She has made it by all definitions she held herself to for success.  She has done it in spite of the hurt, ridicule, bad reviews, lost love, and no longer  having the tutelage of Degas beside her.  She has finally come into her own, and has the admiration of her father!  

Chapter Fifty ( First paragraph)

The struggle that had seemed so essential, the yearning for transcendence, the doubt that had plagued her, fell away in the face of success.  Mary had become the artist she had wanted to be by dint of hard work and perseverance.  And what was left was work, the work she had chosen:  the pleasure of the puzzle, the technical questions of execution, the choice of composition and color, nothing different than before except that now she understood that pain was the foundation of art__not always its subject, but always its process.  To be in pain was to be in the work.  But no longer did she fear it meant failure.  She knew she would succeed eventually with a canvas.  She knew that if she stayed with it long enough, through the blindness, she would finally see what it was meant to be.  She knew that she would find its soul.  Pain was the essential ingredient.  

As much as she can attribute some of her success to Degas teaching her "gesture,"  she also learned he held her back from succeeding sooner.

"(Louisine Edler)  She asked Mary, from time to time, how it was with Edgar, and Mary made brave answers of independence and indifference, but Edgar's cutting tongue set loose on one of her paintings or proffered opinions could set her back so much that she wouldn't be able to paint for day, sometimes weeks."

Then Mary ponders the what ifs of her and Degas's life......

Mary often wondered whether, had she given in, had she allowed herself to become irretrievably entangled, had she been willing to submit to a lifetime of uncertainty, they might have found a way to be at intimate peace with one another.  

Fleeting, but unsettling, the question rebounded throughout the years to bedevil her.  Why was so little in life ever truly settled?  Not the happenstance of things, but the why of things?"


After Degas is no longer in her day to day life, she seems to be able to paint at will, with the gift he had given her.

The work came to her in an endless profusion of possibilities.  There were a thousand ways to paint a mother and child, for in each familial bond there was a unique tie that found its expression in a particular gesture.  It was what he had taught her, so long ago.  Gesture.  Made, not spontaneous.  Studied, not accidental.  The signifier of a unique truth about a life, or two lives.  The gift of Degas.

I finished the book and I will take the time to discuss each chapter, so we may cherish these last pages, but I can not hold in my feelings so I will say this much.... Oliveira, in these last chapters captivated me, she captured the qualities of Degas, his vulnerabilities that I could not see throughout the story.  Maybe it's because I could see the exceptionalism in Mary from the beginning, and how he stunted her work, that I just personally saw how extremely selfish and full of himself he was.  In the last chapters/pages my heart went out to Degas.  My eyes filled with tears, and streamed down my face, trying to see through them, to continue reading the words on the pages.  The final pages in my opinion make this novel a true masterpiece in every sense of the word, as in comparison to Mary's success with her art.

For me this ranks up on my favorite books of all times with Pride and Prejudice and Wives and Daughters.  It may not say much for someone who has not yet read a ton of classics, but you don't have to see every pebble on the beach, to recognize a lucky stone, when you see it shining through.

Ciao for now~


“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #225 on: June 28, 2014, 11:57:51 AM »
I stayed off the site yesterday while I finished the book, because I didn't want to risk getting any hints of where it would go.  I won't talk about the last section until I find out where everyone else is, but I'll say it was very satisfying.

In the meantime, I can fill in some bits.

pedln

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #226 on: June 28, 2014, 12:04:57 PM »
The library book is still on my computer. I did not know because it was erased from the Kindle and iPad on last Monday's due date, and I assumed it was gone here too.  I'm almost afraid to touch it.

JoanP, I don't know if this was what she entered in the 6th Exhibition, but after her "encounter" with Degas, and with LYdia's improving health, she painted many scenes that focused on Lydia.  And with the arrival of her brother and his family she took advantage of ready-made models showing the love between mother and children.

It seems logical to think that someone at the National Gallery might have picked up on the idea for the exhibit after reading I Always Loved You. Or among art historians has there always been the idea of a mentoring bond?  Robin, I hope you can shed some light on that for us.  At any rate, I'm so glad I had a chance to see the exhibit and to read the book.  I had never really paid much attention to Cassatt, never knew anything about her focus.  And as for Degas, just a fleeting knowledge of his ballet dancers.

I'm flying to Seattle on Monday, but will try to return here again before I go.

Bellamarie, I like the way you express yourself, and have really learned much from your posts.  Re: your granddaughter's question, I'm reminded of someone wiser who  once told me --  If we put our troubles in a pot, and then passed the pot around, we'd pull out what we had put in.  DIL's mother has had vision problems for several years, can't drive anymore. She told her daughter she would rather have my rotten knees and mobility problems instead.  My eyes are now my ears, and I don't  know how I would be if that was reversed.

PatH

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #227 on: June 28, 2014, 12:05:30 PM »
Degas didn't like the idea of talent; he thought good art was all hard work, nothing else.

I think that's wrong.  Yes, art is hard work, sometimes overwhelming, but the hard work alone isn't enough.  If you don't have the talent, all you will get is very thoroughly produced second-rate work.

JoanP

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #228 on: June 28, 2014, 12:07:51 PM »
Please fill in bits, Pat.  I agree with you - Degas was wrong!  But I'll bet he became irritated, as Mary C did when people asked him where his ideas came from.  



Bella -  thanks for the inspiration definitions - examples.  I remember when Mary C. first met Degas, she was looking for inspiration, concerned that nothing came.  It was Degas who brought little Eloise to her flat - which was the inspiration she needed.  I often find myself trying to meet deadlines...waiting for inspiration.  There's no way to rush it, is there?  It just has to come on its own.

Pedln - I've been searching to see what Mary C. exhibited in the 1881 exhibit...wondering what could have surpassed her1879 exhibit when she filled an entire room with such outstanding work.  I think you're on to something...her brother's visit - with his family - provided the models and inspiration she needed for the 1881 exhibit.


BarbStAubrey

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #229 on: June 28, 2014, 12:11:47 PM »
 :D  :D  ;) About midnight so either - nothing all day and I thought it would be fun to treat the discussion like coming to visit and finding the house is empty with everyone probably out back or taking a walk since the dog is gone as well.  ;)

Back later...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #230 on: June 28, 2014, 01:51:45 PM »
Chapters 39 and 40: what he does not tell her, what she does not tell him.  That's the crux of their interaction.  Both are full of anguish and insecurity, want comfort without having to share.  Both want to know the other's feelings without revealing too much of their own.  Neither is able to share fully.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #231 on: June 28, 2014, 03:29:49 PM »
To me reading a good book is seldom to re-enforce our own values but rather to discover a new viewpoint and new to me values described and used by others. The relationship between Degas and Mary Cassatt reminds me of the young today who have things to do and places to go - but more, it prompts us to look at and dig into what the behavior in this story of these two characters is suggesting.

I'm thinking aloud here - We cannot change and say, "if only" because then we are changing the story, real or fictitious - what I am seeing is most of the story has Degas helping, expecting, demanding Mary to be free - to find her personal freedom - once she did that she painted as she imagined she could - not perfectly because the story is not about achieving perfection but to strive to be more attuned to the life of the painting while exploring and pushing the known boundaries of the elements of art - color, space, line, shape/form, texture.

I can find many quotes extorting the benefits of putting breaks on freedom in order to accomplish anything from being closer to God to being a success in a job to a relationship. One aspect of this story is to loosen what binds and be free. Commitment to marriage binds us to, not just a person but, to creating a team with that person - a tight, intimate, secure, give and take team. Built into creating this team are expectations, obligations, duty, fewer boundaries, granted freely given but the emphasis is on this relationship, with love as the glue. Love does not keep going by itself - nor can love continue based on biological urges or emotional need - it takes some attention to maintain a loving commitment.

So with that in mind here are a few quotes about commitment and its affect on freedom.

“Love consists of a commitment which limits one's freedom - it is a giving of the self, and to give oneself means just that: to limit one's freedom on behalf of another.”
― John Paul II

"To the degree that we are creative, growing persons, our love is full of surprises rather than governed by expectations.
If we find ourselves in the rut of customary activities, then we know that freedom and flexibility have disappeared... Permanence, however, looks forward and makes promises, which might prevent us from growing and evolving as we otherwise would."
― James Park, Philosopher

"the three components of love, according to the triangular theory, are an intimacy component, a passion component, and a decision/commitment component. The amount of love one experiences depends on the absolute strength of these three components, and the type of love one experiences depends on their strengths relative to each other."
― Robert Sternberg, Psychologist

Robert Sternberg talks about passionate love and companionate love and this explanation rang true to me describing the ongoing love between Degas and Cassatt. -

"Passionate love is associated with strong feelings of love and desire for a specific person. This love is full of excitement and newness. Passionate love is important in the beginning of the relationship and typically lasts for about a year. There is a chemical component to passionate love. Those experiencing passionate love are also experiencing increased neurotransmitters, specifically phenylethylamine.

Companionate love follows passionate love. Companionate love is also known as affectionate love. When a couple reaches this level of love, they feel mutual understanding and care for each other. This love is important for the survival of the relationship."

I think the relationship is used to tell the story which gives us the opportunity to dwell on the value of companionate love and also to recognize freedom does not take commitment-to-security lightly and is therefore, a dichotomy to a committed relationship.

The story shows us several kinds of love which suggests that for a reader, love could be narrowly understood based on their own knowledge and experiences however, the Andrew Lloyd Webber play and song suggest the many - Aspects of Love - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXUptP_9Rik

From the musical our romantic vision of love in Love Changes Everything - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QieVYC8uqJs
Can you really see either Degas or Cassatt acting as Michael Ball in this clip. It would be our fantasy and not in keeping with their desire to continue their love affair with making their art.

Their commitment to their art limits their freedom to focus on each other which is needed to keep married love vibrant and alive.

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

RLO

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #232 on: June 28, 2014, 06:42:25 PM »
Bella and BarbSteAubrey: I want to thank you for your kind words about the book. I appreciate them more that you can ever know. Once I write a book and send it out into the world, it becomes the reader's book, the reader's experience, and I am very glad that you had an experience of it that touched your heart. It does a writer good to know that a reader connected in an extremely emotional way. For you to tell me is very kind. Authors are frequently met with silence after the book goes into the world. It is lovely to have the kind of feedback you have given me. Thank you.

JoanP: Yes, I've been to the Degas Cassatt exhibition in DC. I had a niece's graduation festivities to attend in NYC, then I hopped on a train to DC, just to see the exhibition.  Happily, I was able to combine that with visits with old friends, some of whom attended the exhibit with me. I thought it was fantastic. To see Degas's portrait of Mary Cassatt was wonderful; and some of the prints of Le Jour et La Nuit from Yale were ones I hadn't yet seen. And Little Girl in the Blue Armchair really shone, I thought.

The curators at the National Gallery were already planning the exhibit. The publication of I Always Loved You and the exhibit is entirely coincidental. You can imagine how happy I am that they are selling the book. It was thrilling to see it in all the stores. The exhibit goes to the middle of October. I highly recommend going!

JoanP

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #233 on: June 28, 2014, 07:05:24 PM »
Wow...we just missed seeing you at the exhibit in DC, Robin!  We were there shortly after it opened in May.  It was wonderful, wasn't  it?  You should have seen us flitting around from painting to painting with your book open - as our guide.  Must say again how surprsed and pleased we are to have you join us now.  So the planned exhibit and the publication of your book were entirely coincidental!  I can't tell you how many times we spoke of that when in the National Gallery.


JoanP

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #234 on: June 28, 2014, 07:08:16 PM »
Quote
"...what he does not tell her, what she does not tell him.  That's the crux of their interaction.  Neither is able to share fully."

Pat - I was about to add to your observation that this lack of communication would always be a problem with these two - if they married.  They can't even express their feelings before they get that far.

Then I read Barbara's thoughtful post...and am now thinking that yes, there was attraction, admiration and respect- but also the understanding that neither  was able to commit.  How does one put that in words?  Degas seems to understand that more than Mary does. He fights his feelings towards her...hoping she can understand what a mistake it would be to marry.   Maybe because he has had more time to realize there is no room for the demands of married life if he is to concentrate on his art. Maybe because she's younger -  she hasn't come to terms of a life without marriage - and children.  I'm thinking now of all those mother/babies  she will paint after this - as she "paints love."
I can't think but that she is putting her maternal yearnings into her art.  I wonder if anyone ever did a study of this?

I think I've located the paintings Mary submitted into the 1881 Exhibition...will be right back.

JoanP

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #235 on: June 28, 2014, 07:26:49 PM »
"Whatever the reason, the 1881 exhibition was decidedly Degas' show. It reflected Degas' taste in terms of the artists involved (Cassatt and the Raffaëlli were invited into the group by Degas; Gauguin had become his protégé) and catholicity of vision - that is, an openness to various interpretations of this new Realism in art.

Above all, the 1881 exhibition should be remembered for the debut of Degas' Little Fourteen-Year Dancer (ca. 1881, National Gallery, Washington, DC), a radical departure from conventional sculpture. It was made of wax (not unusual at the time) with a real silk ribbon tied around real hair, a silk faille bodice, and a muslim tutu. This combination of traditional and non-traditional materials shocked the public.
 Most critics panned the entire show, including our beloved "little ballerina."

"Cassatt loved to uses children as subjects. Some of the hallmarks of Cassatt's portrayal of children in her works during the 1880s and 1890s were her use of naturalism and the element of a pure, nonsexual sensuality. A subject that compelled Cassatt even more than children was the involvement of adults in the emotional and physical care for children. In the 1880s her compositions often depicted children being dressed, bathed, read to, or held.

An example of such a composition is her oil on canvas painting entitled Reading that she painted in 1880 and is an image of Cassatt's mother reading to her grandchildren
.  Joris Karl H

Another example of this kind of composition is a pastel on paper she did in 1880 entitled Mother and Child.
Joris Karl Huysmans called these two works "impeccable pearls" when he viewed them at the sixth Impressionist exhibition in 1881.


Mother and Child 1880


Mary Cassatt's Mother reading to her Grandchildren

BarbStAubrey

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #236 on: June 28, 2014, 09:16:11 PM »
Looks like everyone is back home today and sharing the wonders of your thoughts.  

Robin thanks for your words and it never occurred to me that authors do not know how a book affects the reader - I guess not - all you have is what the critics say and if it is considered for an award but still, that is not the same as realizing the affect a book has on the reader. There are many spots where you are telling the story and bringing us along but every so often there is a passage that I have to 'put-down-the-book-and-dwell-for-a-minute-on-the-thought and the-way-it-is-written'.

The wisdom shared in these last pages that describe the feelings of these characters in their elder years is so lyrical and filled with truth it is difficult for me to believe you are a young women - fabulous! The second paragraph in Chapter Forty-Nine summed up life so elegantly as it continues to the next page - "but he could not help the ways of the universe." Another bit of writing that will be copied into my Gwen Fostic notebook where I save bits of verbiage from stories told by writers like, Kurt Vonnegut, Joy Harjo, Haruki Murakami  

JoanP the painting of Mary's mother reading to the grandchildren reminds me of my childhood when there was no TV and for us, no radio so that having Mama read was enchanting - we would be glued to her arm while our imagination reeled full of color and action as we pictured in our heads what the characters looked like and what was happening - wonderful painting and wonderful memory.

And yes, earlier I thought Mary's choice of subject was to catch a sale during the economic ups and downs of this period but now we understand she was full with her family around her and that was what she painted. As life goes on, as JoanP you brought up she questions if she should have made other choices that included having her own children.

It appears Mary never was completely free - she dithered about her life choices on through her senior years. Have any of you spoken with women who decide to remain childless or never marry as my one sister never married - the childless women that I have spoken with most often share thoughtful rational, from career to the 'awful' conditions of society and some to avoid inflicting on a child the memories from their own childhood that they see affecting how they would instinctively raise a child. Those who never marry probably each have their stories -

Interesting to ponder - Mary is followed to her end and she passes at the beginning of a war much as her adult story started soon  after a war - what has changed - the bricks and plaster - the new inventions - the commonplace of her life is all memory - people come and go in our lives - interesting to consider what is it all about...is it the pain that accompanies any creative process?

On my TBR pile I have Degas in New Orleans It will be interesting to learn how that association and time was incorporated into his art and lifestyle.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #237 on: June 29, 2014, 12:20:45 AM »
Robin, you are most welcome, but I feel it is I who should be thanking you, for moving such strong emotions in me with this story.  I am a hard critic which the members of this book club can attest to, but I also give high praise when I see a book worthy of it.  You touched the raw human emotions of Degas and Mary in these last chapters, the tenderness of aging, regret, loneliness, lost love, loss of eyesight, and time coming to an end, and the inevitable, death.

From the point Mary goes to Degas's studio for the visit I felt myself being overwhelmed with emotions:

A wraith answered the door:  an old man with unkempt white hair, and a snowy, bushy beard.  He wore ill-fitting threadbare woven coat, baggy pants, and slippers on his unsocked feet.  His skin had grown translucent, creped and spotted here and there under his eyes, which were glassed behind thick lenses smoked black.  Through the opaque glass it was impossible to tell if he betrayed shock at her unheralded arrival or if perhaps he just needed a moment, as she needed one, to accommodate the mark of time.  She had not written him to tell him she was coming to visit, not when he could not see to read her note.  She stepped forward, took his hands in hers.

"Is it you?" he said.

"It is."

He felt his way into a cluttered parlor, a pathway it seemed he had traversed a hundred times, expertly dodging dusty tables and chairs piled with dishes crusted with dried food.  Here and there stale half-eaten loaves of bread hibernated i in their paper wrappers. ______

No one had told her that it was this bad. _____

Degas's myopic gaze searched for hers and he said, "I never loved you, did I?"

Then he pulled off his glasses and kissed her.  Her lips softened and opened to his.  His hand rose to her cheek and still the kiss went on.  He was forgetting, she thought, that they could have spent a lifetime doing this.

After a time, he pulled away slowly, his brown eyes cloudy with blindness.  Then he sank into the armchair and closed his eyes.  In his sudden sleep, age veiled any vestige of his former self:  his savage vitality, his mirthful savoir faire, his ruthless devotion to principles on one else believed in and which had made his art as masterful as Velasquez's or Titan's.  

She covered him with a blanket and went back upstairs,

When Mary found the little dancer hidden upstairs, all broken, and then the mask of Edgar, I was so sad, feeling these represented their past youth, and their inevitable deaths.  

A life mask, rendered in gray plaster, stared up at her from the clutter.  It was Degas when she had fallen in love with him: heavy lidded, long nosed, his once piercing gaze rendered blindly benevolent by the opaque clay.  It must have been done when his bust was sculpted in the early eighties.  She stared at the face frozen in time, all of who he had been to her preserved now in plaster.  She stroked the contours of his cheeks, the lilting wave of his hair, his half-closed eyes. Edgar.

She turned away.

My heart broke for the two of them at this point.  To think of them now, after all the years they could have shared with each other.  How, why did they deny themselves of a love they had for each other, for the love of their art?  In the end they are alone.  The life lesson I take away from this is don't miss your chance at love.  Grab on to it, treasure it, don't let anything stand in the way at a life of being loved, and giving love to another human being.  Ultimately all the fame and fortune can not comfort you in the end.  Degas said, "Paint with love."  My advice to him, and Mary had I been there would have been, "Live with love."

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #238 on: June 29, 2014, 12:37:32 AM »
Robin, So I have to ask you, was the little dancer really broken in pieces, or was this a part you created to show how time had escaped them, and even though she was Degas's obsession, in the end she became hidden away all broken, representing his life now?

If in fact the little dancer was broken, was she repaired, and is she on display somewhere at the present time?
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10954
Re: I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #239 on: June 29, 2014, 07:47:36 AM »
The statue really was broken.  It was repaired and cast after his death, as were a number of other statues, many of them small experimental pieces.

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/dgsb/hd_dgsb.htm