Author Topic: Greater Journey, The by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online  (Read 68156 times)

JoanP

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The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

July Book Club Online
The Greater Journey: Americans in Paris
by David McCullough
 
"Magnifique! I should have known--McCullough is one of my favorite history writers, and he's writing about nineteenth-century Paris, one of my favorite places to read/think/dream about.  When I was young I always wanted to go to Paris--but not Francois Mitterand's Paris. No, I wanted Degas' Paris, Balzac's Paris, Toulouse-Lautrec's Paris. Well, this was an extended visit to that same Paris but through fresh eyes."  Goodreads review

"In The Greater Journey, David McCullough tells the enthralling, inspiring—and until now, untold—story of the adventurous American artists, writers, doctors, politicians, and others who set off for Paris in the years between 1830 and 1900, hungry to learn and to excel in their work. What they achieved would profoundly alter American history." Amazon review  
                                 Discussion Schedule:
Week 1 - July 14 - 20 ~ Part I/ Chapters 1 & 2
Week 2 - July 21 - 27 ~ Part I/ Chapters 3 & 4  
Week 3 - July 28 - Aug. 3 ~ Part II/ Chapters 5 & 6
Week 4 - Aug. 4 - 10 ~ Part II/ Chapters 7 & 8
Week 5 - Aug. 11 - 17 ~ Part III/ Chapters 9, 10, 11
Week 6-  Aug. 18 - 24 ~ Part III/ Chapters 12,13,14


Relevant Links
David McCullough-Brian Lamb  Intervew (Books TV)  ; David McCullough-Charlie Rose;  Biography - David McCullough


Some Topics for Discussion
July 14-20
Part I Chapter 1 ~ The Way Over

 1.  Why were so many of America's young people heading off to Paris in the 1830's?  Would you have gone?  Could you have gone?

2.  How familiar are you with the many names McCullough mentions in the opening chapter?  Which ones?  How do you think he selected them for his focus?

3.  Are you beginning to understand McCullough's choice for the book's title?  How would you have survived the sea journey described here?

4.  First stop - Rouen!  Have you ever entered Paris  from Le Havre - through Rouen?  Can you imagine the impression the ancient cathedral made on the visitors from the New World?

Chapter 2.   Voilà Paris!

1.  Americans were struck by how little Parisians knew about America.    How much did they know about Paris when they sailed?

2.  Do you remember how many Americans were in Paris in 1830?  Will they have an impact on the city?  What was the political climate in Paris when they arrived? Was it safe for the newly-arrived Americans?

3.  Do you sense that McCullough has narrowed his cast of characters at the end  of this chapter?  Were you familiar with these names?  John Sanderson, Emma Willard, Charles Sumner?   Where does Nathaniel Willis fit in? Do you anything about this man David McCullough is quoting so frequently?

4.  Have you read any of the works of James Fenimore Cooper, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Henry W. Longfellow?  How long ago?  How about Victor Hugo's Hunchback of Notre Dame?

5.  The conviction of the French: "the Arts are indispensable to the enjoyment and meaning of life."  In what ways  did the Americans find their own country deficient?


Discussion Leaders:   JoanP,  PatH  Barb,  JoanK,   Marci




JoanP

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Welcome, everyone!

Bastille Day! July 14, 1789
-    


I've a question maybe you can answer - We read that so many of America's young people were heading off to Paris - in the early 1800's, not so long after the storming of the Bastille, overthrowing the monarchy in 1789.  -   Then there was the July Revolution of 1830, in which 3000 people were killed in Paris.  
  Would you have gone to Paris?  Could you have gone? Would your parents have financed your passage?  

I asked my husband - he suggested that it was possible the conditions in Paris weren't known in America - as there was no telegraph at the time.  It does strike me reading these chapters that the Americans in Paris seem to be unaware or unfazed by what was happening outside of their own circles...although I can't see them not noticing the bloodshed in 1830 or the lingering conditions in the years following.



BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2014, 03:05:03 AM »
Since it was another 8 years before the first of my great grandparents arrived in the US for me it is a moot question - sailing here was a brave enough venture - starting a new life, leaving behind generations of family and tradition in Germany, one from Alsace and two from Ireland in the 1840s - they were not among those families who were traveling for experience, education and curiosity.

As a young teen James Fenimore Cooper was my favorite author - I believe I read all the Leatherstocking tales - I still find copies of his books that include the art work of N.C. Wyeth or Thomas Cole and save them for gifts to children and even to new Babies, adding a few other books as a start to their library.  

 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Jonathan

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2014, 11:41:39 AM »
Perhaps it's the wrong time to go. If I'm going to lose my pants like the poor devil in Delacroix's painting...that's an education I wasn't counting on. But I've bookmarked the link to 'Paris and the July Revolution of 1830. It promises more information about the turbulent city. The text ends with: 'Thus ended, finally, the Bourban reign that started with Henry IV in 1590.'

That's Henry IV on the cover. On his horse at the Pont Neuf. That, no doubt, was the Paris Americans thought they were travelling to. Glorious, isn't it? Now, can we judge the book by its cover. I've never seen a better one. And the endpapers with the rue de Rivoli (the one Mark Twain had read about) and the avenue de l'Opera at the back promise a glorious adventure. But the Paris commune haunts French history. They're all Jeffersonians in Paris. Every generation should have its revolution.

I'm not surprised that McCullough leads of with a bridge. He had such a great success with The Great One. And now I'm comparing Pont Neuf  with the Pont Brooklyn. This will never do. With that tremendous goal still thundering in my head!

Jonathan

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2014, 11:58:40 AM »
I had such a glorious time at the beach on Asbridges Bay the other day, with the girls in short shorts practicing their volleyball on the sand. And now I realize I left my book on the beach. Oh well. It was just one of those light reads. Nothing substantial like The Greatest Journey.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2014, 12:10:05 PM »
Pont Neuf the oldest bridge in Paris wrapped by Christo in 1985


“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2014, 12:19:39 PM »
The French Revolution of 1830 was as if Mary Poppins came to town and said spit spot so that in 3 days they got rid of the king and his government - see if Occupy had just read French History they too may have been able to take their cause into fruition -  ;)
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

mrssherlock

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2014, 12:44:50 PM »
First impressions:  Six weeks on a ship with no cabins; how did they stock provisions for the trip?  No bathrooms!  Seemingly the Americans who chose to undertake such an adventure were of inquisitive minds and were well educated for their time.  Plus three distinguished American statesmen had spent time in Paris and would not have been shy about their experiences, much less their opinions, so while the experience of Paris was lacking there surely would have been information. Lastly, McCullough is lie being there.  I can feel their wonder and joie de vivre.  America must have been cheerless, we never have outgrown our Puritan heritage. Standing by and observing carefree Parisians' pursuit of pleasure-talk about culture shock!  Since McCullough chose relative unknowns to speak we can accept their views objectively.
 
Jackie
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

mabel1015j

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2014, 01:35:44 PM »
No way! I'm a coward! Although on my maternal side of the family 4 brothers came to the colonies in the 1730's, and my father made the sea voyage to and fro to France in 1917 as a draftee into WWI, i can't imagine getting on a sailing ship, or a steamship to cross the North Atlantic. The adventurer gene obviously diminished as it descended to me.

Why were they going? Well, France had been the center of education and culture on and off for centuries. I guess people looked at France the way they look at the U.S. today. It was the place to go.

Mccullough states his title on the last page of chapter one: "great as their journey had been by sea, a greater journey had begun, as they already sensed, and from it they were to learn more, and bring back more, of infinite value to themselves and to their country than they yet knew. So he's expressing more then just movement, physically, from one place to another when he mentions "the greater journey." And as for "infinite value to themselves and to their country", i guess that cues Susan Fenimore Cooper..........

Musil's book says "if mostly forgotten now, SFC was as influential in her time as Rachael Carson in ours"..."America's first popular nature writer was....hailed by critics and common folks alike. SFC , the devoted dgt of JFC, published Rural Hours in 1850. It was an immediate success and preceded Walden Pond by 4 yrs........it went through 4 decades of popular publication and revision, in the U.S. and overseas....Cooper drew on her knowledge of languages along with her early sophisticated education and residence in Paris and London."

In Morse's "The Gallery of the Louvre" ....."in the corner, along with JFC......we see 20 yr old Susan busily painting copies of the assembled gems. The widower Morse had been giving painting lessons to S and there was always speculation about their relationship."

A sample of Rural Hours from U of Penn's digital library

http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/cooper/hours/hours.html

And a picture of Susan they she might have regretted having taken......such a sad persona

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Susan_Fenimore_Cooper.jpg

Jean

pedln

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2014, 01:46:17 PM »
Good picture of Pont Neuf, Barb.

Like Barb, I don’t think my family had yet arrived in this country from Norway.  So this discussion is prompting me to make some inquiries from other family members. The grandparents were from a split generation – some born here, some not.

Yes, I think I would have wanted to go,  but only if with someone else, another family member or friend.  I was a music nerd as a kid and would have wanted to go to the theatres and concerts that Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote home about.

Several years ago, at the National Book Festival, McCullough told us that the 18th Century was his favorite.  But that was before the Greater Journey.  I wonder if he still feels that way, after seeing these very creative and learned Americans in Europe and then following their exploits at home.


From The Reader’s Book of Days for July 14:  (only because it’s about Parisians.)

1831:  The governor of New York, hosting the French visitors Alexis de Tocqueville and Gustave de Beaumont, ran into his house for a gun after sighting a squirrel, but “the big man” in Beaumont’s words, “had the clumsiness to miss him four times in succession.”

Ella Gibbons

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2014, 02:42:27 PM »
No, I would never have gone; have always been afraid of deep water and seeing huge masses of the sea breaking over the deck and the ship rising and falling in the water would have put me in such a terrifying stupor I might never have recovered. 

Once when I was young and single I went to Maine by train and slept in the top bunk of a Pullman.  That cured me of tight places, getting undressed and dressed in an ungodly position.  For a while upon waking I could not find my clothes and I got rather frantic until with great relief I discovered them in a net bag hanging behind my head.

I would imagine McC chose these particular people because he could find appropriate material from which he could write, don't you?   Or perhaps because he wanted a diverse group.  It might become more clear as we read on.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2014, 02:46:27 PM »
Charles Sumner wrote the following in his journal which expresses what so many felt, McC states:

".......I go for purposes of education and to gratify longings that prey upon my mind and time....The temptations of Europe I have been warned against.....I can only pray that I may be able to pass through them in safety."

salan

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2014, 03:44:02 PM »
Yes, I would have gone and my parents would have paid for me to go.  My mother never got to travel much; but she always wanted to & would have come up with the money somehow to send me.  She paid for me to spend 6 weeks in summer school (college) in Pueblo, Mexico.  That was really an experience!

I only managed to get to Paris once and then only for a week.  I always wanted to go back.
Sally

JoanK

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2014, 04:24:48 PM »
I probably wouldn't have gone. I crossed the Atlantic on an ocean liner (the Queen Mary) in the sixties, and found the eight days on board ship hard.

And I wasn't even seasick -- almost the only passenger on board who wasn't. McCullough plays down seasickness, but for those afflicted, months at sea must have been terrible. I remember the story of Cicero (I think it was). He knew the emperor has ordered him killed, and was escaping by boat. he would have gotten away, but he ordered his men to land, saying that he would rather die than have one more day of seasickness. 

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2014, 10:44:28 PM »
Although McCullough includes so many plates in his book these are just too wonderful...Paris 1830



Wide-eyed young Americans were dazzled by the Place de L'Etoile in 1830.


View of the Market at Les Halles, c. 1828 by Guiseppe Canella


Procesión de Corpus Christi en Paris 1830


Lithography by Victor Adam, from the series "Fêtes des environs de Paris". 1830
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2014, 11:02:02 PM »
This is what they are coming from

New York Brooklyn Heights 1830


Philadelphia soon after the arrival of the Philadelphia & Columbia Railroad in 1830,
this picture of Lancaster shows the Globe Hotel with its advertisement for the Pioneer Line

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

mabel1015j

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2014, 11:51:19 PM »
Love the pictures Barb. Thank you

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2014, 10:10:04 AM »
Yes, thanks for the photos, Barb.  I'm not sure if those reading on e-readers get to see the many photographs included in the hardback copy of this book. (do you?)  I'm wondering if it is now in paperback, since it was published in 2011.  And if in paperback, are those photos included?

I was particularly interested in the photographs of Paris in 1830 - like this one -

McCullough writes of the disappointment felt by the Americans - the conditions they encountered were not what they had expected.  (Although they found things were not the same in all of the "arrondisements."  (Do you understand how Paris is/was laid out?)

 How familiar are you with the many names McCullough mentions in the opening chapter?  Not too many women coming aboard, Sally.  I can't understand how women manuevered around those streets with their long skirts and pretty boots as described in 1830.  Would your mother have let you come alone, Sally - had she known more about where you were going?   A few women  made the trip -though. Emma Willard for one.  Had you heard of her before?  The school for young ladies that she founded is still flourishing in upstate New York.  She wasn't a young woman herself when she braved the ocean to get to Paris.  I think she was nearly fifty - an outlier.  Most of the people we are meeting are young men, sons of those who were wealthy enough to finance their sons in Paris.

Jean, I enjoyed reading Susan Fenimore Cooper's descriptive essays; journal entries  and her biographical link you provided yesterday.  James Fenimore Cooper's situation was unusual too...bringing his whole family to Paris!  How did he manage to write,  "do Paris" and have a family life all at the same time?  I'm reading his Last of the Mohicans online - it's been so many years since I saw the film on TV.  Never read the Leatherstocking Tales as Barbara did - what have you NOT read, Barb? :D  I vaguely remember seeing the film version in 15 minute segments in seriel form back in the fifties.  Does anyone remember that?  I can still hear Cora and Alice screaming as they were carried off by the Indians.

ps - so many good points posted here yesterday - hopefully we'll get back to them - in a roundabout way.  McCullough was all over the map of Paris in the opening chapters - which explains why we are too! :D


 

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2014, 02:13:32 PM »
Never wanted to talk about ol' James since there is/was a member who absolutely hated James Fenimore Cooper - not sure if it was just the Leatherstocking tales or everything the man wrote - so I thought the better part of valor was to not referred to him - but yes in around the 7th grade I thought those tales were wonderful, full of adventure and excitement almost as good as the sea stories that I loved to read. Remember dong a book report and spent so much time on sketching as a cover Chingachgook that I was so proud of and it did not count towards my grade, in fact it was subtracted because the assignment did not ask me to put my essay in a cover - feeling wounded I just retreated into my books more than ever - ah so...

McCullough is sure helping us round out the nineteenth century - the only things I remember knowing about was  - the Texas War for Independence - Dolly Madison saving paintings from the White House during the War of 1812  - the Civil War - the land/Indian wars - gold rush - and laying track connecting the nation by rail  - oh yes, and Mark Twain - all US events - if we read about the clashes in Europe they were in passing and not drilled into our frame of reference.

Many of these folks McCullough includes I had heard of but did not learn of them in History class - many because of new inventions remembered more from the jokes when something did not go as planned we blamed so and so who invented the item or system. Silly stretches of the imagination like not getting the message to an aunt or grandmother on the next street quickly because we stopped to play and so the tease about are tardy delivery was we should have sent it with Samuel Morse

What I found fascinating looking at the street art from Paris versus the US is the Paris scenes feature people, usually lots of them where as the US scenes seem to be more about long distance transportation.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Jonathan

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2014, 05:58:32 PM »
Judging by your posts, this promises to be a very interesting journey. Yes, like JoanP says, we're all over the map on this one...but then, so is the author. Is he feeling his way around? We should enjoy finding out what this book is all about. Perhaps it will be something different for all of us.

My attention was caught by something in Pedln's post:

'Several years ago, at the National Book Festival, McCullough told us that the 18th Century was his favorite.  But that was before the Greater Journey.'

That excited the brain cells in my head and I started to make my own case for that view. Until I was brought up short by the question: whose century? French or American? Is this book about Paris? Or what? Is it history? Or just story? Is it about art? Science? Biography?

There's just a great little book I would like to recommend. I read it years ago. By the de Goncourt brothers, Edmond and Jules, cited off and on in this book.

French XVIII Century Painters

The book soon has one falling in love with that century.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2014, 09:42:32 PM »
Thanks for those lovely pictures, JOANP AND BARB.  One can understand the wonder the Americans felt on seeing the cathedral at Rouen when you remember how young America was at the time and as seen in the photograph above.  "The inexpressible magic, the "sublimity" of it as Emma Willard wrote in her journal.

McCullough must have had access to that journal, I'll have to read his notes to find out how he got it and how pleased he must have been.

But they were so disappointed when they first arriveed in Paris, dirty, noisy, ugly.  But that breakfast that Nathaniel Willis had in his hotel sounds delightful, 30 dishes from which to choose! (pg.27)

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2014, 11:16:30 PM »
Never wanted to talk about ol' James since there is/was a member who absolutely hated James Fenimore Cooper - not sure if it was just the Leatherstocking tales or everything the man wrote - so I thought the better part of valor was to not refer to him - but yes in around the 7th grade I thought those tales were wonderful, full of adventure and excitement almost as good as the sea stories that I loved to read. Remember dong a book report and spent so much time on sketching as a cover Chingachgook that I was so proud of and it did not count towards my grade, in fact it was subtracted because the assignment did not ask me to put my essay in a cover - feeling wounded I just retreated into my books more than ever - ah so...

McCullough is sure helping us round out the nineteenth century - the only things I remember knowing about was  - the Texas War for Independence - Dolly Madison saving paintings from the White House during the War of 1812  - the Civil War - the land/Indian wars - gold rush - and laying track connecting the nation by rail  - oh yes, and Mark Twain - all US events - if we read about the clashes in Europe they were in passing and not drilled into our frame of reference.

Many of these folks McCullough includes I had heard of but did not learn of them in History class - many because of new inventions remembered more from the jokes when something did not go as planned we blamed so and so who invented the item or system. Silly stretches of the imagination like not getting the message to an aunt or grandmother on the next street quickly because we stopped to play and so the tease about our tardy delivery was we should have sent it with Samuel Morse

What I found fascinating looking at the street art from Paris versus the US is the Paris scenes feature people, usually lots of them where as the US scenes seem to be more about long distance transportation.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2014, 09:26:30 AM »
Quote
"Is this book about Paris? Or what? Is it history? Or just story?"
Isn't that a super question, Jonathan!... Has a similar question occurred to the rest of you?
 I'd say it's more than a story...in other words, it's more than FICTION, right?   It all really happened - it is a History then.  BUT it's more than a book about Paris.  We hardly hear of the the political upheavals at the time - the Americans in Paris did not take part or even take sides, it appears.  They are too busy enjoying the marvels of Paris, and learning.  

Quote
"The French Revolution of 1830 was as if Mary Poppins came to town and said spit spot so that in 3 days they got rid of the king and his government."
 This may be as it appeared to the Americans, Barb - but for the thousands of Parisians who lost their lives during those three days...

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2014, 09:48:37 AM »
It must have been confusing for the Americans' arrival in Paris  - they found a "medieval city" as Ella described, filthy, noisy and foul-smelling.  These were wealthy Americans - it didn't take them long to discover the palaces, glorious  parks and the accomodations Nathaniel Willis described.  These extremes within the same city demonstrates the disparity between the rich and the poor in the years following the Revolution.  
I'm going back to reread the breakfast menu at the Hotel des Etrangers,  Ella -  before deciding where to stay - there or the Hotel de l'Europe where Emma Willard  took up lodging - right across from Galignani's English bookstore.



Willis'  Hotel des Etrangers still stands today.  I'm not sure if Galignani's is still there.  

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2014, 11:56:39 AM »
Yes hundreds died I think the number is about 800 and 3000 actually participated - according to accounts the militia was 20,000 strong and then the army was added during the night of the first day of battle which was another 40,000 - the one song from Les Mis about Empty Tables is searing in the film - I did not come away with as strong an emotional reaction having seen the play several times but the movie brought out things in that musical version that the stage is not as intimate and therefore did not get to the depth of feelings.

Then two years later Cholera that had been ravaging Europe hits Paris - eventually the epidemic makes it to the US - I wonder if there is a grave location for the dead of the 1830 revolution or a mass grave for the Cholera deaths.  
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Ella Gibbons

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2014, 12:38:41 PM »
I've only read the first two chapters, but McC does title his book AMERICANS IN PARIS and certainly he did not intend to tell the history of the revolution taking place; undoubtedly that would require another book.

The pictures are so lovely, the gardens at the Palais Royal - are all the surrounding buildings part of the palace?

Perhaps it is my poor perspective of buildings but when I saw Parliament in London and buildings such as this Palace Royal and compare those to our own Congressional Building and the White House where sits those who govern one of the largest countries in the world I think we are still a very new country.

SMILE - "Good Americans when they die go to Paris."

Anyone?

mabel1015j

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2014, 01:16:25 PM »
Had we known of these people before reading?........

I knew of almost all of them except Sanderson, Appleton and Willis, and, oh yes, the two N Eng medical students, Jackson and Warren. Sanderson is my favorite at this point. I love his sense of humor....."If any lady of your village has a disobedient husband, or a son who has beaten his mother, bid her send him to sea" lol.

"....watching the parade of fashionable women on the wide path of the Garden (S) said, ' i never venture in here without saying that part of the Lord's Prayer about temptation....'"

OMG, bodies caught in the net in the Seine laid out in the morgue, Sanderson noted "You can stop in on your way (just to see the bodies) as you go to the flower market, which is just opposite." I think DMc enjoyed reading S's letters too. I think i would have liked to have been in S's classroom.

"The French dine to gratify, we appease the appetite....We demolish dinner, they eat it."

I have been envious of the scenes of Europeans leisurely walking, eating, drinking. We seem to be in a much bigger hurry here, why di you think that is?

I have heard so often about the "light" in Paris and in Provence, can any of you describe it?

I have always had ambiguous feelings about the building of these magnificent cathedrals and palaces in Europe. I think of their grandeur and their beauty, and then i think of the money that was spent, sometimes for decades and centuries, taken from the citizens, that could have been put to more "practical" purposes. I guess that is forever the Liberal's dilemma.

Jean

mrssherlock

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2014, 01:45:06 PM »
For the Americans encountering Paris can be likened to Science Fiction stories of discovery and anthropological journals' descriptions of alternate  societies.  Paris was an entirely different world.  Interesting how many were young with little personal experience except that of growing up.   Back home, Frontierland, there were itinerant painters traveling from town to town painting portraits.  No galleries, museums, ateliers. Much that I know about this period is of the common men/women.  Did they have music beyond informal gatherings for dancing?  Was art limited to the samplers and quilts created by necessity and not for aesthetics? Were there the hours available to simply create?  Wasn't America a largely rural society?  Effete city life had little in common with the sturdy practicality needed for survival on the frontier. 

McC might be writing a travel book for armchair explorers.
Jackie
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

bellamarie

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2014, 02:35:55 PM »
Oh my Heavens!  I have some catching up to do.  How did July 14th slip up and away on me?  I just ended my week vacation on Monday, and just try to imagine Monday morning 5:45 a.m. my alarm wakes me to be ready for the first day care child, then from that time until 5:45 p.m. I dealt with the heating and air conditioning guy fixing a clog in my unit causing water in my laundry room, the plumber here to demolish my upstairs bathroom using a sledgehammer to destroy my 30+ yr old cast iron tub, 8 daycare children keeping them in the family room in the basement or outside in the play area so the sound would not hurt their ears, and then lunch, naps and pick up.  Phew....guess I know why I totally forgot the day of our book had arrived.  So, while I have been the last one to depart the ship, I am finally ready to begin our Paris tour of this book with all of you.  Hopefully it will be less hectic for me. 

I'll begin reading the first chapters and try to catch up ASAP.

mrssherlock, You asked how I liked reading books on my iPad.  I love it!  I was just talking to my granddaughter who is a sophomore in college, this morning (she and I share our books and discuss new ones) about how nothing is as good as holding a real hard bound book in your hand, but for the online book club I find the iPad is great for highlighting, notations, finding my bookmarks quickly for something I wanted to comment on, and I especially love being able to copy, cut and paste for our discussion posts.  I have a nookcolor tablet also, but the iPad is so much better as far as I am concerned.  If you get one you will not regret it.  My six grandkids keep me up to speed on the newest technology.  Imagine that after I taught technology/computer classes in a K-8 Catholic school for 15 yrs., before owning my in home daycare. 

Okay off I go to explore Paris.........  Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Jonathan

  • Posts: 1697
Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2014, 03:51:50 PM »
'Oh my heavens!.'

Thank heavens you're on the way, Bellamarie. Here's the travelling you have always wanted to do. Why wait for the next life, in Paris, that good Americans are counting on. Who, by the way, said:

Good Americans, when they die, go to Paris.

LOL. Good for you, Jackie. How wonderful to leave that Puritan heritage behind.

'I can feel their wonder and joie de vivre.  America must have been cheerless, we never have outgrown our Puritan heritage.'

Except for the sorely tempted Sanderson from Philadelphia.

Don't miss Rouen cathedral on your way to Paris. It's true. Unbelievable sums of money and years of effort went into the building of all those magnificent structeres. I can understand your ambiguous feelings, Jean, But when you compare it with the trillions spent on armaments in the last century...with nothing to show for it. So there they are. Where we can still go to worship, make confession, or admire the glorious art.

JoanK

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2014, 04:42:03 PM »
Jonathan: I tried to get the book you mentioned on kindle, but they don't have it.

Surely there was the same difference between the rich and poor areas of the city in Boston as in Paris. But the rich are good at arranging their lives so they never see the poor. So being brought through those areas may have been new to the young well-to-do Americans.

I'm thinking this period may have been a restless one in America, with many leaving for the frontier. Perhaps this restlessness affected these young men too, but given their education, they went for intellectual frontiers. In an age where we all have available to us art, music, great architecture, etc. through books and electronically at least, I was surprised (although I shouldn't have been) at how little access these men had had in America.

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2014, 05:05:42 PM »
Did you get the impression that the young Americans came to Paris, not with the intention of becoming a better artist, scientist, doctor - but rather to learn - to see the world, to fill in the gaps in their own education - if they discovered any?

I've been trying to find the words to answer Jean's question about the light in Paris we hear so much about.  Can you describe it?  It's difficult, isn't it?  Not the night lights of Paris - that's easy.  But how to describe the daytime light that sends artists scurrying outside with easels and paints?

My vocabulary fails me.  Soft? ....Sweet, reflective from the sparkling river?  It's something that almost brings you to tears because you know you'll miss it when you leave.  Can someone do a better job describing this light to Jean?


JoanK

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2014, 05:10:24 PM »
I didn't see that in Paris, since it was raining, but I still remember it from Florence! I can't describe it, but I'll never forget it.

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2014, 05:21:43 PM »
I've been thinking of your question about poverty in Boston in the 1830's, JoanK. While there was poverty in Boston, there were workhouses, for example, I wonder if there was such a striking contrast between the haves and have-nots as in Paris following the overthrow of the Monarchy?

bellamarie

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2014, 07:55:30 PM »
What a great interview link provided to us   Thank you so much for it.  I watched part 1 & 2 and I really like David McCullough, he seems like a man I would enjoy sitting down with and listening to all his knowledge he could share from all his researching for his nine books.  He seemed to favor this quote opening his book:

"For we constantly deal with practical problems, with moulders, contractors, derricks, stonemen, trucks, rubbish, plasterers, and what-not-else, all the while trying to soar into the blue."
                                                                                                            __Augustus Saint-Gaudens


I also found this interesting,  "They came from Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Ohio, North Carolina, Louisiana, nearly all of the twenty-four states that then constituted their country.  With few expectations, they were well educated and reasonably well off, or their parents were."[/b]

In McCullough's interview, (paraphrasing) he said, the foreigners were allowed to study for free, all they had to do was provide their own room and board. 

It seems these were an elite class of people who were able to take advantage of a free education in Paris.  America benefited from this because they came back and shared their knowledge, talents, professions, etc. with Americans.  Like McCullough said in his interview, (paraphrasing) we would be surprised how much of America is what it is, because of these and other Americans going to Paris.  Not just our art, music, medicine, but also our culture.

JoanP.  I have no knowledge of the lights you speak of since I have never had the privilege to visit Paris, but I do remember in our last book, I Always Loved You, it spoke of how the artists flocked to paint in that light during the day. 

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

mabel1015j

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2014, 09:38:11 PM »
Good thought Jonathan, cathedrals and palaces are mch better than armaments and destruction.

mrssherlock

  • Posts: 2007
Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2014, 11:59:41 PM »
Recalling the Cassatt/Degas Paris, what a contrast. Fifty years of Americans experiencing Paris and we find women artists whose talent was openly displayed, not maiden aunts who played with brushes and water colors.
Jackie
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

kidsal

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2014, 03:45:02 AM »
Book on the way from Amazon!  Have to get busy reading -- trying to read about five books at the same time.

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2014, 10:32:41 AM »
Kidsal, Bellamarie - WELCOME to the discussion!  You should have no trouble catching up.  As you can see, we have many enthusiastic observations on McCullough's two opening chapters.  Others have mentioned that he seems "all over the map" - some are overwhelmed by the number of names, some familiar, some not. DON'T Be!  The advice from those who have read both chapters - and into the next.  RELAX!  McCullough knows what he's about and the cast of characters will narrow down as we go forward.

We have been considering two of the questions from those in the heading:

Quote
Which of the many names are you familiar with in these opening chapters?   How do you think he selected them for his focus?
 Were you familiar with these names?  John Sanderson, Emma Willard, Charles Sumner?   Where does Nathaniel Willis fit in? Do you anything about this man David McCullough is quoting so frequently?

Jean knew all of them, except for Charles Sumner.  What I like is the fact that NONE of these characters are fictional!  They all lived and wrote at this time.  Ella suggested early on that McCullough chose these characters because they left written records - diaries, journals, news articles, etc.  I'll bet that's right - we are getting to know them through the sources DM has unearthed.

Let's focus on these four characters before moving on.  Surely we will hear from them or about them in upcoming chapters.   What do we know about each of them so far:  John Sanderson, Emma Willard, Charles Sumner, Mathaniel Willis.

marcie

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2014, 11:26:40 AM »
JoanK  you say:
"Surely there was the same difference between the rich and poor areas of the city in Boston as in Paris. But the rich are good at arranging their lives so they never see the poor. So being brought through those areas may have been new to the young well-to-do Americans."

And then JoanP says: "I've been thinking of your question about poverty in Boston in the 1830's, JoanK. While there was poverty in Boston, there were workhouses, for example, I wonder if there was such a striking contrast between the haves and have-nots as in Paris following the overthrow of the Monarchy?"

So far I was most struck by the American's surprise/disgust at seeing/smelling the squalid conditions in Paris and hearing the clamour of the city. I am guessing, as JoanK says, that the more wealthy, educated Americans who went to Paris had not spent much time in the poorer areas of American cities. I've watched past seasons of a BBC America series called "Copper" which is set in the 5-Points district of New York City in the 1860s. Also Martin Scorsese's film "Gangs of New York" is set there. "Over the decades the neighborhood changed.  It was extremely bad in the 1830’s and ‘40’s until Protestant religious sects made inroads to clean up the area in the 1850’s.  By 1860 Five Points was a little less violent, but still a slum. Abraham Lincoln visited the area in 1860 and reluctantly gave a speech to some school children. He as well as Charles Dickens, who visited the area in 1842, were appalled at the abject poverty and terrible living conditions. Conditions improved only to crumble again in the 1880’s with the influx of Italian and Chinese immigrants.  By 1897 the area houses had been demolished and the district took on a whole new look." See some illustrations at http://www.urbanography.com/5_points/

Perhaps most places in the 1830s in America were more spread out and less populated than Paris. Also, I'm sure it was the shock of expectations versus reality that got to most of the visitors to Paris.