Author Topic: Greater Journey, The by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online  (Read 68155 times)

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2014, 11:41:45 AM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

July Book Club Online
The Greater Journey: Americans in Paris
by David McCullough
 
"Magnifique! I should have known--McCullough is one of my favorite history writers, and he's writing about nineteenth-century Paris, one of my favorite places to read/think/dream about.  When I was young I always wanted to go to Paris--but not Francois Mitterand's Paris. No, I wanted Degas' Paris, Balzac's Paris, Toulouse-Lautrec's Paris. Well, this was an extended visit to that same Paris but through fresh eyes."  Goodreads review

"In The Greater Journey, David McCullough tells the enthralling, inspiring—and until now, untold—story of the adventurous American artists, writers, doctors, politicians, and others who set off for Paris in the years between 1830 and 1900, hungry to learn and to excel in their work. What they achieved would profoundly alter American history." Amazon review    
                                 Discussion Schedule:
Week 1 - July 14 - 20 ~ Part I/ Chapters 1 & 2
Week 2 - July 21 - 27 ~ Part I/ Chapters 3 & 4 
Week 3 - July 28 - Aug. 3 ~ Part II/ Chapters 5 & 6
Week 4 - Aug. 4 - 10 ~ Part II/ Chapters 7 & 8
Week 5 - Aug. 11 - 17 ~ Part III/ Chapters 9, 10, 11
Week 6-  Aug. 18 - 24 ~ Part III/ Chapters 12,13,14


Relevant Links
David McCullough-Brian Lamb  Intervew (Books TV)  ; David McCullough-Charlie Rose;   Biography - David McCullough


Some Topics for Discussion
July 14-20
Part I Chapter 1 ~ The Way Over

 1.  Why were so many of America's young people heading off to Paris in the 1830's?  Would you have gone?  Could you have gone?

2.  How familiar are you with the many names McCullough mentions in the opening chapter?  Which ones?  How do you think he selected them for his focus?

3.  Are you beginning to understand McCullough's choice for the book's title?  How would you have survived the sea journey described here?

4.  First stop - Rouen!  Have you ever entered Paris  from Le Havre - through Rouen?  Can you imagine the impression the ancient cathedral made on the visitors from the New World?

Chapter 2.   Voilà Paris!

1.  Americans were struck by how little Parisians knew about America.    How much did they know about Paris when they sailed?

2.  Do you remember how many Americans were in Paris in 1830?  Will they have an impact on the city?  What was the political climate in Paris when they arrived? Was it safe for the newly-arrived Americans?

3.  Do you sense that McCullough has narrowed his cast of characters at the end  of this chapter?  Were you familiar with these names?  John Sanderson, Emma Willard, Charles Sumner?   Where does Nathaniel Willis fit in? Do you anything about this man David McCullough is quoting so frequently?

4.  Have you read any of the works of James Fenimore Cooper, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Henry W. Longfellow?  How long ago?  How about Victor Hugo's Hunchback of Notre Dame?

5.  The conviction of the French: "the Arts are indispensable to the enjoyment and meaning of life."  In what ways  did the Americans find their own country deficient?


Discussion Leaders:  JoanPPatH  BarbJoanK,   Marci




BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2014, 11:54:30 AM »
I'm thinking right on Marcie when you said - "I'm sure it was the shock of expectations versus reality that got to most of the visitors to Paris." the other thought is in the cities of America during this time in history the poor were mostly immigrants bringing what then knew to a part of the world without the same resources and like most first generation immigrants the were not completely Americanized probably speaking mostly in their native language and so I can see how few moneyed folks would have any reason to be in those areas for any reason - they probably had help who took the horses to be shod and the laundress came to you for pickup and delivery and so the basic needs that would be the work of the poor was out of sight. But more as you say I agree I think their perception of Paris was fantasy just as immigrants were expecting an easier time of it in this country that was described as having 'streets paved with gold'. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2014, 11:57:44 AM »
Following up on what Marcie said about the populations of Paris and Boston..."Perhaps most places in the 1830s in America were more spread out and less populated than Paris."

 a quick internet check -
Paris is and has been one of the most densely populated cities in the world -

 Population of Paris in 1831 (city proper)             785,862
 Population of Boston in 1830                            61,392

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2014, 12:10:17 PM »
Holy Hannah that is not double or triple but almost 13 times more folks - that is like a house built for 2 is holding 25 people - I wonder now what the density was - the land size - but regardless that is a huge number of people and so I can imagine just going to the market would have been an overwhelming experience dealing with crowds versus a few shoppers.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2014, 01:58:57 PM »
JoanP., 
Quote
 Ella suggested early on that McCullough chose these characters because they left written records - diaries, journals, news articles, etc. 


I recall McCullough saying in his interview, he chose these particular people because of their different careers in life.  He wanted to show the diversity of people who went to Paris to learn in their fields, and how they brought what they learned back to America and used it to better America.  He mentions everyone of them returned to America, except Mary Cassatt.

I am a bit younger than some in this book club, and because of my upbringing, being rural, small town and poor, I did not have the opportunity to access books to read while growing up.  The only books in my home were the Bible and any school text books we were allowed to keep at the end of our school year.  We had no transportation to visit our one library in my small town, so I think this is why I became a writer as a young girl, I created stories, plays and poems to share with my siblings and then we acted them out.  So I have to say I have never heard of any of these people McCullough mentions in the first chapter, other than of course Morse and Edison so far.  McCullough also said even though he mentions quite a few people, he does zero in on just a few as the chapters progress.  He seems to favor Augustus Saint-Gaudens, he mentions because of his great sculptures, and our very own Mary Cassatt.  So yes, I think the field of people will thin out soon.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
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Ella Gibbons

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2014, 01:58:59 PM »
The  Americans were so surprised and vexed to arrive and have their passports, luggage and personal effects pored over and fined, even letters.  I was surprised at that also.  And they had to pick up their passports at a police office later.   What a nuisance.

When one mentioned that in America no one carried passports, the frenchman wondered about personal security of the people.

A drivers license, with picture, seems sufficient today as identification for most of us, is that correct, or could that just be in Ohio?  I'm not sure if that is federal law that one must carry a picture I.D.

If a person does not drive you can get a picture I.D. somewhere, I haven't reached that age yet, but soon, soon............

nlhome

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2014, 02:05:20 PM »
I'm reading this book now, won't really have time to contribute to the discussion much. I am finding it very interesting. I am familiar with several of the people mentioned in the first two chapters.


bellamarie

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2014, 02:07:19 PM »
Ella, that is interesting you should mention how a picture i.d. is sufficient here in Ohio, and how the frenchman wondered about personal security of the American people, because they carried no passports.

I was just hearing on the news yesterday how the illegals who are crossing our borders are coming with no proof of identification whatsoever, and are being put on commercial airlines and flown to cities all over the U.S.  I was thinking when I heard this how unsafe it is for our country to not really know who these people actually are, and what their purpose in coming here is.  Not all are children, and there is concern for terrorists, drug cartel and human traffickers coming in.  Does seem a bit scarey, when there is no identification and proof of it.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2014, 02:27:01 PM »
There's no law that says you have to carry a picture ID, but it's getting very hard to do without one, you have to show it so many places now.  I don't know anything you need a passport for unless you are traveling.

I hadn't heard of Sanderson, Sumner, Willard, or Willis.  It's pretty clear why Nathaniel Willis and John Sanderson are in--amount of material.  They both wrote regular letters back to the New York Mirror, and Sanderson wrote a book, Sketches of Paris: In Familiar Letters to His Friends; by an American Gentleman in Paris, which was widely read on both sides of the ocean.

Jonathan

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2014, 04:52:23 PM »
Pick up your passport at the police station.

Paris police have always been very keen on knowing who's in town and keeping track of their whereabouts. They obviously had their own homeland security problem. Life in the big city.

I remember my first visit to New York City many years ago and being struck by the contrast of rich and poor. The Bowery and Fifth Avenue. The Lower East Side and Park Avenue. Watch this, said my companion, my cigarette butt will never reach the ground. And gave it a flick. Sure enough, several hands came out of nowwhere and fought over it. Try London. Mumbai. Rio. It's the same the whole world over.

McCullough has found a most interesting group of people to get to know. I'm finally going to read a book I have had on my shelf for many years.Saint-Gaudens and the Gilded Era, by Louise Hall Thamp. Interesting to read about his 'practical problems.'

I had never heard of Emma Willard and her school for women in Troy, NY. I am trying to imagine the new student introducing herself to her new friends: My name is Helen.

Emma Willard described for her students back in Troy the giant equestrian bronze of Henry IV of Navarre, "that most chivalrous, best-headed, and kindest-hearted of all the French kings" which commanded the Pont Neuf's midway point."

Henry IV was assassinated about 1604, soon after beginning his reign. He arrived with a new spirit. I feel certain that today Emma Willard would have made a comparison with Jack Kennedy. I believe there was something of the Camelot image about Henri Quatre.

'Like McCullough said in his interview, (paraphrasing) we would be surprised how much of America is what it is, because of these and other Americans going to Paris.  Not just our art, music, medicine, but also our culture.'

That's worth following up. There was considerable cultural and political exchange between France and America in those years, wasn't there? Each was captivated by the other.


JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2014, 08:31:42 PM »
This  talk of passports reminds me of our first trip to France - to Paris.  Brand new passports...lots of warnings about keeping it close to the body, that there were people who wanted to steal it.  So we bought special pouches to carry it around our necks and off we went.  Americans in Paris.  At least I had some French - unlike those we are reading about in McCullough's book.
  
We found our hotel with some difficulty - and too much luggage (It was our first trip.  You have to learn to pack, don't you?)  As we checked in, the clerk at the desk requested our passports.  Told us they had to register every tourist from out of the country with the police.  He assured us we'd have our passports back in the morning.  Which we did.  But it was an uneasy night until the day clerk came back in the morning.


JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #51 on: July 18, 2014, 01:09:23 PM »
PatH- I'm going to classify John Sandwrson and Nathaniel Willis in my mind as writers, though I' m not sure to what extent their articles and books were contributing to  financing  their adventure in Paris.  Do you get the impression that either one  of these two were independently wealthy young men - or financed by their families?

What are we told of Charles Sumner?

pedln

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #52 on: July 18, 2014, 01:22:53 PM »
You’re right, PatH, about it being harder to get around without some sanctioned I.D.  I find using a credit card physically easier than digging in the purse for cash.  Here at home, no problem, but while shopping with my granddaughter, on a recent trip to Seattle, I had to bring out my driver’s license every time I charged something.

I just finished watching the Brian Lamb/McC interview – finally found that it offered captions.  If you have not yet seen it, don’t miss it.

JoanP asked us why McCullough picked the people to follow that he did.  Ella said she thought because they had left writings.  I’m sure that’s no doubt a partial reason, but I also think he picked some of these people because they were closest to his heart.  They were the writers, the artists, the teachers, the soon-to-be doctors, the people who made history come alive for him.  Some were people with fascinating stories, that we might not know about – people like Charles Sumner and Elihu Washburn.  The latter’s story (he was one of ten children, all of whom distinguished themselves) reminds me of my grandparents, whose families had immigrated to a small Wisconsin town.  They had no higher education, but they saw that all of their seven children received it.  My mother had never seen a library until she went to state teachers college.

I like the idea of focusing on a few people at a time.  I had heard the name Emma Willard (probably thinking about the Willard Hotel in DC) and Charles Sumner (probably thinking about one of his relatives –FDR era government official Sumner Welles).
When did Samuel Morse’s painting of the Louvre come to Washington?

What are we told of Charles Sumner?   He had a strong sense of duty.  And, he came to LEARN.


JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #53 on: July 18, 2014, 01:25:00 PM »
Pedlin, we've been posting at the same time!  Both trying to learn more about these names.  I really want to know more about Charles Sumner himself.

Some of you have mentioned Augustus Saint-Gaudens.  I confess I don't remember McCullough describing this person, but the name is very familiar to me.  I did remember the comprehensive index at the back of the book and turned there to see what I missed.  
SURPRISE! There are many references to Saint-Gaudens...not sure if they are all the same family: Andrew,  Augustus, Bernard, Francois, Homer, Louis and Mary Saint-Gaudens.  McCullough devotes many pages to these Saint-Gaudens in later chapters of the book.

Can anyone tell me where the name of Augustus Saint-Gaudens has come up?  In the book?  In one of the interviews?

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #54 on: July 18, 2014, 01:36:38 PM »
I just found a wonderful resource in the back of the book in which McCullough breaks down the book by chapters with the Sources to which he refers in each.  If you have the hardcover, Sources Notes can be found starting page 461.

Jonathan

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #55 on: July 18, 2014, 02:39:13 PM »
'I just found a wonderful resource in the back of the book...'

You're so right, JoanP. It's just a marvellous book, with its source notes, vast bibliography and three sections of photos and reproductions. Here's a lovely portrait with it's caption:

"Author Harriet Beecher Stowe, in Paris in 1853 to escape the fanfare over her novel Uncle Tom's Cabin, felt at once the "dreamland" charm of the city, its people, its architecture and art. At the Louvre, Gericault's vast, dramatic The Raft of the Medusa seemed to "seize and control" her whole being." On the following page opposite to the portrait is The Raft of Medusa painting, showing the victims of an 1816 disaster at sea.

Weren't we lucky to make it across safely!

Where could one find this? In an introductory paragraph to the source notes of Chapter 13, is this:

Americans in Paris, 1860-1900, the illustrated catalogue for a memorable 2006 exhibition...is a superb survey of the works of Cassatt, Sargent, and thirty-five other American artists who studied in Paris.

pedln

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #56 on: July 18, 2014, 04:38:36 PM »
Quote
I just found a wonderful resource in the back of the book in which McCullough breaks down the book by chapters with the Sources to which he refers in each.  If you have the hardcover, Sources Notes can be found starting page 461.
 JoanP

Also on the KIndle -- just go to the page number.

JoanP,  McC quotes A. Saint-Gaudens on the page just before the table of contents.  Also, picture on p. 208.  I'm not sure when he first arrived, but he left when Paris was invaded.

The PC is great for locating info in an indexed Kindle book.  Just search on the name and every appearance comes up in chronological order.  Just click away.

mrssherlock

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #57 on: July 18, 2014, 04:46:42 PM »
speaking of IDs a passport is accepted everywhere.
Jackie
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

salan

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #58 on: July 18, 2014, 06:21:02 PM »
In 1970 my husband (who was a treasury agent) was assigned to sky marshall detail.  He flew all over the world as a sky marshall.  One of the most memorable flights was to Paris.  The pilot called him up to the cockpit to see Paris as they were flying in.  It was night and my husband said it was one of the most beautiful sights he had ever seen.  Oh, how I envied him those trips!!
Sally

PatH

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #59 on: July 18, 2014, 07:31:57 PM »
Wow!  I can't imagine how beautiful that must have been.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #60 on: July 18, 2014, 10:36:30 PM »
SALLY, a sky marshall?  Did he ever arrest anyone?  Who hired him and how did they choose which airlines for him to fly?   Are there still sky marshalls flying around on airplanes?

I am going to follow Charles Sumner through the book if McC continues with his itinerary in Paris.   I like Sumner's observation about black people and he continues to fight for liberty of slaves in  America.  Here is his career at home:

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=charles+sumner


salan

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #61 on: July 19, 2014, 02:58:47 AM »
At that time the government was just organizing the sky marshall program.  They chose a number of federal law enforcement agent to fill in until they could set up the program & train agents.  He flew for 6 weeks and flew on planes heading for Germany, England, France and Israel.  He really had some experiences!  He and I were both glad when he was finally back home.
Sally

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #62 on: July 19, 2014, 01:00:55 PM »
That was a dream job, wasn't it Sally?  I can imagine your envy as your husband tried to describe what he saw each time he returned "from work." ;)  I've never flown into Paris at night...but even by day it is breathtaking.  Flew into (out of?) Nice once - in sunlight.  Just beautiful - those terra cotta roof tiles, the blue sky!

Our 19th c. Americans in Paris never had that opportunity either - but they did experience the sunlight.  In Chapter Two we hear how the changing light in Paris impressed them...how different the buildings looked at different times of the day - in the rain, in the sunlight.  McCullough writes how "in the full sunshine, even in winter  the bridges and palaces would glow with such golden warmth, it was as if they were lit from within."

pedln

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #63 on: July 19, 2014, 01:11:06 PM »
Jonathan, there apparently is a catalog for the book you want -- Americans in Paris 1860 -1900.  I guess we're a little late to see the Met's exhibit although the catalog is available -- for a price.

Americans in Paris


From today’s newspaper sampling – a WSJ book review of The Other Americans in Paris by Nancy Green. When the name Thomas Evans appeared I had to rush to McCullough’s index.  He’s there. There's only a slight overlap between the two books, as Green's reads 1880 - 1941.

Other Americans in Paris

Quote
Ms. Green informs us that the American who achieved the most fame in 19th-century Paris was not an author or an artist but Napoleon III's dentist, Thomas W. Evans, formerly of Philadelphia. Evans's influence over the emperor was so great that he reportedly dissuaded him from intervening in the American Civil War—on the side of the South. When Napoleon III was captured during the Franco-Prussian war, bringing an end to the Second Empire in 1870, it was Evans who spirited the Empress Eugénie out of the country to England.

Last night while reading about John Sanderson extolling Paris night life and entertainment and bemoaning America’s deficiencies in that area I began to wonder who were our culture stars then? Who was “flourishing” in entertainment and culture in the US during the 1830’s 1840’s?

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #64 on: July 19, 2014, 01:17:36 PM »
That would be worth investigating, Pedln - who were Amreica's culture stars in the 1830's and 40's.  Do you think there were many?   Those in the link you have provided...Hemingway, Fitzgerald etc..came much later - in the 1920's.  

In Chapter 2 in McCullough's book, we read how "squeamish" the French considered the Americans.  The whole idea of nude statues, nude models...they found offensive.  I'm seeing how their appreciation of French artists, and entertainers must have changed things back home as the Americans' eyes were open to what was going on overseas.

The conviction of the French:
Quote
"the Arts are indispensable to the enjoyment and meaning of life."  
 It really was a whole different approach to life, to art, cuisine, etc. - wasn't it?  The whole idea of enjoyment and entertainment was not the American way.

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #65 on: July 19, 2014, 01:30:05 PM »
I like the idea of following Charles Sumner, Ella!  Shall we each choose one of these characters to follow?  (Even if McCullough doesn't include them in later chapters?  Charles Sumner strikes me as a serious young man so far.  More so than some of the others we've met so far.  Already we see forming a circle of friends with similar background and education. 

Do you remember about how many Americans there are in Paris at this time?

I'm interested in Oliver Wendell - Holmes.  Mainly because I'm confusing him with his son, Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.  I confuse the two.  I think I'll tail hims to see if that helps.

Jonathan

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #66 on: July 19, 2014, 01:56:05 PM »
What a thrill to be back in Paris, and seeing it through the eyes of these distinguised artists, writers and scholars. I have no doubt that nighttime Paris from the sky must be spectacular. But the city looks grand from anywhere and in every light:

'From Montmartre one could see the whole broad sweep of the city.' McC

Isn't Paris known as the city of light? James Fenimore Cooper loved Paris in gloomy weather: 'I love to study a place teeming with historical recollections, under this light, leaving the sights of memorable scenes to issue , one by one, out of the gray mass of gloom, as time gives up its facts from the obscurity of ages....

From Montmarte...ah

'The domes sprung up through the mist, like starting balloons; and here and there the meandering stream threw back a gleam of silvery light. Enormous roofs denoted the sites of the palaces, churches, or theaters. The summits of columns, the crosses of the minor churches, and the pyramid of the pavilion-tops, seemed struggling to rear their heads from out of the plain edifices. A better idea of the vastness of the principal structures was obtained here in one hour than could be got from the streets in a twelve-month.'

But did you notice? Parisians could now (1830) also see their city from the air. Ballooning had arrived.

Abigail Adams is mentioned (p56) in connection with the Hospital for Foundlings, of such huge concern for Emma Willard. What I did want to tell you about is the fantastic mansion the Adams lived in during their stay in Paris, actually the village of Auteuil on the edge of the Bois de Bologne. McC wrote about John Adams. Diane Jacobs has written a great book about Abigail and her sisters, just out. The mansion can be seen on page 184.

Jonathan

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #67 on: July 19, 2014, 01:58:34 PM »
Thanks for the info on the catalogue. I'm going to find it.

Jonathan

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #68 on: July 19, 2014, 02:21:23 PM »
Looking for entertainment in 1830's America!! Did you notice? 'Home Sweet Home' was composed in Paris, by an American. Wasn't America  still stuck in its Puritan shell, when it's cultural heroes would have been the preachers and the travelling evangelists?

I'm still laughing. I have a cousin in Germany who came to visit a few years ago. She talked about the serious need for missionay work to be done in France!!

JoanK

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #69 on: July 19, 2014, 02:46:42 PM »
I like the description of Sumner's later life. I especially liked this:

"In 1856, a South Carolina Congressman, Preston Brooks, nearly killed Sumner on the Senate floor two days after Sumner delivered an intensely anti-slavery speech called "The Crime against Kansas". In the speech, Sumner characterized the attacker's cousin, South Carolina Senator Andrew Butler, as a pimp for slavery." Wikipedia.

I had heard that there was such an incident, but didn't connect it to our Sumner.

Jonathan: are you going to volunteer to be a missionary in France? Your occupation might curtail your activities a bit.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #70 on: July 19, 2014, 07:52:06 PM »
I've read the next two chapters and, therefore, I wonder if it is a mistake to attempt to follow one particular person in the book.  McC writes about occupations rather than personages; fascinting chapters, we'll enjoying discussing them.

Off the subject, but lately I have heard the term "exceptionalism" bandied about in regards to America.  I dislike that attitude immensely; it's arrogance.  Is  that attitude responsible for our interference in other nation's problems believing we can solve them, believing that democracy is the only way to govern.

These young educated Americans who went to the old world to study had the right idea at the time; perhaps we need a bit of that today.   

bellamarie

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #71 on: July 19, 2014, 09:29:42 PM »
JoanP
Quote
Some of you have mentioned Augustus Saint-Gaudens.  I confess I don't remember McCullough describing this person, but the name is very familiar to me.

In the interview from the link provided, go back and listen to how much McCullough likes Augustus Saint-Gaudens.  If I remember correctly he said if he would choose one or two of the people in The Greater Journey to write a book about one would be, Augustus Saint-Gaudens.   
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

mabel1015j

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #72 on: July 19, 2014, 10:01:37 PM »
Joan, I laughed when you asked who were the cultural stars of the 1830s in America. Think ELMER GANTRY! We were in the middle of the Second Great Awakening. Americans were not only being politically independent, but religiously independent also. Many new denominations were sweeping the country - those singing Methodists, and those dunking Baptists, etc and revival meetings were the entertainment of the night and day! Evangelicals rained down wherever preachers could set up a tent! And hundreds of people showed up - no tv, no radio, few books, no movies, no internet, what the heck would you do in the evening to add some excitement to your life!?!

And if you were teenagers or young adults what a great place to meet others of your age who you might never have otherwise met? You know with no electrical audio system, most people couldn't hear what the preachers were saying if there were more then 50 people there, so you might as well converse with someone in the crowd! :D

http://www.ushistory.org/us/22c.asp

Have any of you ever been to an outside revival meeting? Fun! Lots of fun!

PatH

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #73 on: July 19, 2014, 10:05:04 PM »
We haven't met Saint-Gaudens yet in the book, but if you've looked at all the pictures you've met his statues.

mabel1015j

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #74 on: July 19, 2014, 10:19:29 PM »
The connection between the democracy movement and the evangelical movement is why you may have way back in the recesses of your brain a remembrance of the term The Second Grt Awakening from your high school U.S. History course.

This is long, but if you are interested, it is a very good essay of Evangelicalism as a great social movement in American history.

http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/nineteen/nkeyinfo/nevansoc.htm

I am descended from a long line of Calvinist Presbyterians, but was raised in the Methodist Church - my mother just left the fold and married one of those dastardly Methodists who also smoked and drank a bit and played cards!!! That explains why i am an agnostic today!  ;D ;D

Notice what is listed as "Arts and Culture" in this index from the 1830s......mass media and the railroad!


http://www.artandpopularculture.com/1830s

This is a more comprehensive site and more of what Joan had in mind with her question, i'm sure. From a historian's point of view, of course, this is the Jacksonian Period.

http://kclibrary.lonestar.edu/19thcentury1830.htm

Jean

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #75 on: July 20, 2014, 12:40:47 PM »
Jean, I am really struck by the difference between American and French taste  in entertainment  - it seems to me the French "joi du vivre" is what attracted the American visitors in Paris -  this joy they will take home in time.  The Americans were much more conventional -
as your sites describe it  "eighteenth-century Americans lived their lives within hierarchically ordered institutions."  The Transcendentism allowed little room for sensory enjoyment.

Will Americans ever fully believe as the French do -  "the Arts are indispensable to the enjoyment and meaning of life"?

I'd like to read something James F Cooper wrote before he left for France - and then afterwards to see how much of an impression exposure to Paris  made on his conventional stories. McCullough describes the frequent attendance to French Theater - Moliere, Corneille, Racine...  and the Paris Opera, ballet.  The Americans knew nothing like this at home...John Sanderson wrote how deficient is our country in these elegant accomplishments..." (Can anyone help me? - I've already forgotten who John Sanderson was...

Do you think we in America are still deficient in our knowledge of  French literature and art?  McCullough mentions Victor Hugo, Balzac, George Sand, and Baudelaire - Delacroix in painting or Chopin and Liszt in music.”

Have we all read Victor Hugo's "Hunchback of Notre Dame" - in English?






pedln

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #76 on: July 20, 2014, 12:47:39 PM »
Thanks for the links, Jean.  No wonder our travellers loved Paris.  There sure wasn't much going on here in art, music, and theatre.

 
Quote
And hundreds of people showed up - no tv, no radio, few books, no movies, no internet, what the heck would you do in the evening to add some excitement to your life!?!
.  As one of the articles mentioned, if 50 people attended you could't hear the preacher anyway, but you might meet someone.

JOanP, I have the same problem with the Oliver Wendell Holmes family.  Dad -- doctor, went to Paris,  son -- law?  I think I have it straight now.

Samuel Morse is the one who was puzzling me at first, as I'd never heard of him as a painter, and kept wondering "is this the inventor of the telegraph." I'm glad to know they are one and the same, and I'm looking forward to learning more about him.  In the interview, McC raved about him and his Lourve painting.  And he spoke at length about the friendship between him and J F Cooper, could have written a book about it.




JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #77 on: July 20, 2014, 01:03:37 PM »
Pedln - which Holmes wrote Autocrat at the Breakfast Table?  Senior?  Which was the Holmes who  served as an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States?
Found this -   Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. (March 8, 1841 – March 6, 1935) was an American jurist who served as an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States from 1902 to 1932, and as Acting Chief Justice of the United States January–February 1930.  We've got that straight. 

Quote
"I've read the next two chapters and, therefore, I wonder if it is a mistake to attempt to follow one particular person in the book.  McC writes about occupations rather than personages..." Ella

Ella, you've got a point.  Since the next two chapters are a continuation of Part I in which we are learning more about the individuals who sailed for Paris at this time - and the courses they pursued - painting and medicine,  let's continue to follow our guys, the journalists, the artists, the medicals.  It will be interesting to see where McCullough takes us when we reach the Chapter in Part II.  I have a feeling he will move on in time - to introduce us to individuals who came to Paris after the first wave we are meeting now.

We're meeting familiar names and learning about their professions.  It doesn't get better than that!  We'll be starting Chapters 3 and 4 in Part I tomorrow.  You're leading us, Ella! ;)!

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #78 on: July 20, 2014, 01:23:05 PM »
Oh I wouldn't be so hard on the American taste or rather lack of for the Arts - the French had how many hundreds of years to develop their infrastructure and culture - granted not as anything we can imagine today but for the times they were an advanced society with enough security for some to take a minute and observe the beauty around them, reproduce it with patronage from at first royalty and the clergy later a wealthy and growing business class till finally all but the poor were affected by the concept of enjoying fun and beauty.

To me in America we were still trying to carve out from the wilderness communities and thank goodness, because today we have a thriving art community with both coasts a rival for any European art community. I think to applaud these early citizens of America who had arrived at a secure place to become curious and want more so they went to the area of the world where that education was available. Seems to me this is a time when the Brits were still filtering in their education to the arts - wasn't this the time when a well brought up Brit was expected to do his time in Italy for the same reason that the Americans chose Paris.

What is new information to me is that medicine was a feature of France - I had heard it was Germany and early doctors in the States had to know German to get on in medicine so this connection to France as being the hub is new and I want to learn more about it and when the switch, if there was one between France and Germany in the study of medicine.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

mabel1015j

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #79 on: July 20, 2014, 02:32:44 PM »
Sanderson was a Philadelphia school teacher and for some reason, i don't know if DMc said it, but my impression is he's about 50 yrs of age.

Added - yes on pg 10 Mc say he's "a teacher in his fifties known at home ..... For his literary bent."

Jean