Girls of Atomic City by Denise Kiernan Mid-September/October Book Club Online

[marcie]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in!

Everyone is welcome!

 

The Girls of Atomic City                            
by Denise Kiernan

Based on first-person interviews with women who served at Oak Ridge, several of them now now in their eighties and nineties, Denise Kiernan  tells the  true story of young women during World War II who worked in a secret city dedicated to making fuel for the first atomic bomb—only they didn’t know that. At the dawn of the atomic age, the community of Oak Ridge, Tenn., rose up around the secret work taking place there in support of the war effort.  At the heart of those efforts were thousands of women from across the country who did their part to help secure the United States while maintaining a public silence.  They all knew something big was happening at Oak Ridge, but few could piece together the true nature of their work until the bomb was dropped over Hiroshima, Japan, and the secret was out. The shocking revelation: the residents Chicken Oak Ridge were enriching uranium for the atomic bomb.  They had NO idea!

DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:

September 15-21~ Introduction & Revelation, August 1945;
   Chapters 1, 2, 3  (62 pages)
September 22-28 ~ TUBEALLOY, 1938
   Chapters 4,5
Sept. 29- Oct. 5 ~ TUBEALLOY, The Quest for Product
   Chapters 6, TUBEALLOY, The Couriers, Chapter 7
Oct 6-12 ~ TUBEALLOY, (p 151) Security, Censorship, The Press
   Chapters 8, TUBEALLOY, Pumkins, Spies, and Chicken Soup; Chapter 9,
   TUBEALLOY, Combining Efforts in the New Year; Chapter 10 (to pg. 204)


 RELEVANT LINKS:
An Interview with Denise Kiernan  about Atomic City girls; Part 2 Interview with Denise Kiernan;
2013 Interview with Celia Klemski; Interview with Kattie Strickland, resident of Oak Ridge in 2005

For Your Consideration
October 6-12

TUBEALLOY (p151) ~ Security, Censorship, The Press

1. Do you think it is a bit odd that scientists were already battling over the use of atomic energy  once the war is over?  Are they that confident in the power and the success of the Gadget?
2. The General believes in compartmentalization for security.  "Each man should know everything he needs to know to do his job - and nothing else."  Can you understand this? How did President Roosevelt assist the General in his belief?

Chapter 8 ~ The One about the Fireflies

1. Do the whimsical replies to questions about what went on in Oak Ridge sound as if the girls were taking the secrecy and censorship in stride?
2. How did Oak Ridge inspire secrecy among the thousands of workers?

TUBEALLOY ~ Pumkins, Spies, and Chicken Soup

1. A clogged alloy tube in the Philadelphia Navy yard led to the death of two men- a third survived. How did the General silence the coroner's office on the cause of death?
2. Was security a bigger problem than anticipated?  If spies had infiltrated CEW and the Project's scientists, had they also known of Lt. Col Paul Tibbits' involvement?  Is his name familiar to you?  

Chapter 9 ~ The Unspoken

1.  What were some of the serious problems D. Clark encountered among the women in his 10 page report?  Do you see the single girls DK interviewed having these same problems?
2. What did Dr.Clark mean when he said attitude and a sense of humor made a difference in how people managed? Is there any indication of how many suffered severe problems? Why did they remain?

TUBEALLOY ~ Combining Efforts in the New Year

1.  What effect did the 1944 election have on the productijon of the Gadget?
2. How did they decide the Gadget would be ready in August, 1945?  Maybe even 2 of them?

Chapter 10 ~ Curiosity and Silence (to pg.204)

1.  Was the army colonel in Manhattan giving Celia Szapka a lie detector test? What were they looking for?  Did she seem unhappy as a married woman in Oak Ridge? Did you listen to her interview in the heading yet?
2. What did you think happened to the young Navy man who required electroshock treatment?
What did he want to warn the Japanese emperor about?

DLs:  JoanP, Marcie, PatH,
 

[marcie]

Pat, that's such great first-hand information. I was wondering what the leg makup reference was about. Now I get it that it was to make the women look like they had on the darker stockings. Didn't it rub off on clothes?

My mother was married at the end of the War to an American soldier stationed in Germany. Her "honeymoon" skirt and jacket was made out of Army uniform material.

[marcie]

I want to comment on the fact that the "PRODUCT" was carried in a briefcase locked onto the arm of a courier. We got descriptions of the football-length facilities and photos of the tons of material that Enrico Fermi blew up. I was very surprised that the final Product was so small.

I found some images of wedding dresses made from parachute material at https://www.google.com/search?q=parachute+wedding+dress&client=firefox-a&hs=ZwD&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=tC4vVOTjN4a6yQTXz4Eo&ved=0CDAQ7Ak&biw=1426&bih=833#imgdii=_

I can imagine that it was difficult to sew because of its "slipperyness" but there must have been a technique that worked in order to sew the original parachute.

[bellamarie]

These dresses are amazing!  Thank you for the link Marcie.

PatH., I had to giggle when I read drawing the line up the back of the leg so it appeared to be a seam.  Imagine if someone did that today.  And skin coloring, or selfless tanner as I think it's called.  I remember my first time ever using it in 1970,  I looked like a pumpkin.   

[JoanP]

I read in these last chapters that Dr.Clark notes homesickness, morale and depression growing as time goes on.  Something  more is needed to counter this "drab existence." So "more" is added- game nights, dances, clubs, jazz...sports leagues. Oak Ridge is slowly turning into a town, a community.

When reading of the liberation of Italy in June, 1944...and the storming of the beaches in Normandy, I wondered what those "inside" thought the Gadget was going to be used for?  Has all their work to win the war with this Gadget been for nothing? Have any concluded the new weapon is planned for use in Japan, rather than in France or Germany?

Marcie - I wondered how many couriers made the trip to Los Alamos with those little briefcases of Product handcuffed to their wrists before there was enough sufficient for the Gadget?   Must have been a site!  Didn't anyone think it odd?  Did spies take note?

[marcie]

Joan, I would think that those who actually knew what the GADGET was, would have thought, at least initially, that it was intended for Germany. I'm watching the TV  series MANHATTAN that's about the scientists at the New Mexico site. It is fictional - not a documentary but based on history. Most of the scientists think in terms of a race against Germany to build an atomic bomb. In the series, it's not so much a race to actually bomb an enemy but to prevent the Enemy from creating the bomb first. I don't know if that was the actual motivation.

LOL, yes, Joan. I was wondering the same thing. How many people boarded trains with briefcases handcuffed to their arms? It would have seemed that it would attract a lot of notice to do that.

[PatH]

. Most of the scientists think in terms of a race against Germany to build an atomic bomb. In the series, it's not so much a race to actually bomb an enemy but to prevent the Enemy from creating the bomb first. I don't know if that was the actual motivation.

My impression is that was definitely the thinking--to beat the enemy in this race, not to be at a weapons disadvantage.  Of course they realized that meant a possibility it would actually be used.

Handcuffing a briefcase to a courier's wrist was a standard procedure for important dispatches, so the "product" carriers wouldn't be unique.

[marcie]

Thanks, Pat, for that confirmation about the likely motivation of the U.S. in trying to be first in building the bomb.

 I know I've seen movies with briefcases handcuffed to couriers. It seems to me, if the information was important enough, that the courier would be at risk for losing his hand to an adversary, if not his life.

[marcie]

If there is anything more anyone wants to bring up on these chapters or any that we've already discussed, we can do that today and then move on to the next Tubealloy section and Chapter 8 starting tomorrow.

[bellamarie]

PatH., 

My impression is that was definitely the thinking--to beat the enemy in this race, not to be at a weapons disadvantage.  Of course they realized that meant a possibility it would actually be used.

I have to agree, I feel it was about the United States getting the first atomic bomb.  Once they created it, and had it why did Truman decide to use it on Japan, when it was clear that Japan was ready to surrender.  I have read many articles that have proof Japan wanted to surrender with only one condition, the U.S. allow them to keep their Emperor.  After the two bombs were dropped killing thousands of civilians, Truman agrees to the surrender, and allows Japan to keep their Emperor.  So why?  Surely not to end the war or save American soldiers from being killed.  Japan was no longer a threat, we had decimated them before the bombs. 

This is one article of many that states the United States was well aware Japan was beaten and ready to surrender.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html

This article shows,  General MAcArthur and Eisenhower disagreed with dropping the bombs, along with, Brig. General Bonnie Fellers, Admiral Leahy, Chief of Staff to presidents Roosevelt and Truman, Admiral Ernest King, US Chief of Naval Operations, Leo Szilard, a Hungarian-born scientist who played a major role in the development of the atomic bomb, argued against its use, General Curtis LeMay, along with Joseph Kennedy.

After studying this matter in great detail, the United States Strategic Bombing Survey rejected the notion that Japan gave up because of the atomic bombings. In its authoritative 1946 report, the Survey concluded:   Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945 and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945 [the date of the planned American invasion], Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.



 

[marcie]

The actual bombings continue to be a controversial issue with various arguments about the reasons and timing for dropping the bombs and the moral implications. As far as I've gotten in the book, the speculation about the strategic value of actually using the bombs doesn't seem to be part of the scope of this book so it doesn't seem that we'll find answers or even theories in our reading.

[PatH]

I remember reading a much later interview with Truman in which he said that was the most difficult decision he had to make during his presidency.  He didn't say what his reasoning was--it wouldn't have fitted the scope of the interview.  I do remember reading that when he took over as president in the spring he hadn't yet been briefed on the bomb, didn't even know of its existence.  It would be good to know what information he had when he had to make the decision.

No doubt history buffs know the answers to these questions, but I sure don't.

[PatH]

Marcie, you were posting while I was writing.  I agree, that's outside the area this book is going to cover.

[marcie]

:-)

[JoanP]

Last stop on the trip home.  Third motel - this one has a great breakfast - and then we're off...

I can't say enough how much I appreciate the stories of the "girls" - and the details that make the period come alive.  You feel so badly for the blacks - I remember my uncles and aunts referring to them as the "Colored" -we read here of the "Colored Camp Council" created for a change in the living conditions at CEW... there was segregation everywhere, pools, movie theaters.  
Things were slow to change, but World War II marked the beginning...in the military.

Today we move on to the TUBEALLOY chapter beginning on page 151 in the hard cover - right before Chapter 8.
 August, 1944 - the Allies are in Paris - the scientists are already battling on how to use atomic energy in the future.  Didn't you think it odd that they would be planning for the future - and the Gadget hasn't even been tested yet?  Are they that certain it will be a success - that there will not be unexpected results?

In 1943, the project needed its own security staff to take over the War Department's Counterintelligence.  This project is top secret - as someone pointed out here - even the vice presidential candidate was not informed.  Of all the things I read about President Roosevelt, this "secret" kept from HTS him until Roosevelt's death was the hardest to comprehend.  What was he thinking?

[marcie]

Joan, I was wondering why some of the group was focusing on the future. Of course, they couldn't know how long it might take them to develop the Product and Project. Some of the group were probably quite optimistic. I looked up a bio of Zay Jeffries who wrote the initial memo about future uses of the technology. I noted in the book that he was a consultant with General Electric. The online bio says "His skills were not limited to those of a scientist; he had more than adequate administrative skills and was exceptionally perceptive in recognizing business opportunities." See http://home.frognet.net/~ejcov/jeffries10.html

 He was likely using his "business hat" with General Electric to think about ways to make money for the corporation.

Something else that struck me in this Tubealloy section was that the new Office of Censorship sent a memo in 1943 to 20,000 news outlets. It outlined the topics that they couldn't write about, including "radioactive materials ...cyclotrons.... and Polonium (tubealloy) ....
I would think that memo could have been discovered by the "enemy" who would then know alot about the science that the U.S. was working on.

[ursamajor]

BellaMarie's article regarding the use of the atomic weapons is at variance with most historical accounts.  The fact remains that if Japan had surrendered after Hiroshima Nagasaki would not have been destroyed.

The Institute for Historical Review"s main interest is denial of the Holocaust, which brings its credibility into question as far as I am concerned.


Institute for Historical Review
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not to be confused with Institute of Historical Research.
Institute of Historical Review

Logo banner
Abbreviation   IHR
Formation   1978
Location   
Newport Beach, California[1]
Key people   
David McCalden, founder
Willis Carto, co-founder
Mark Weber, director
Website   ihr.org
The Institute for Historical Review (IHR), founded in 1978, is an organization primarily devoted to publishing and promoting books and essays that deny established facts concerning the Nazi genocide of Jews.[2][3][4][5][6] It is considered by many scholars as the world's leading Holocaust denial organization.[2][7][8] Critics have accused the Institute of antisemitism and having links to neo-Nazi organizations. The Institute published the non-peer-reviewed Journal of Historical Review until 2002, but now disseminates its materials through its website and via email. The Institute is affiliated with the Legion for the Survival of Freedom and Noontide Press.[9]

[JoanP]

Let's  stick to DK's book - there are many differing viewpoints on justifying the use of the Gadget. There have been many books written on the subject -  after the bomb was detonated.  Let's stay with this book - the creation of the bomb and the money and magnitude that went into it..

Denise Kiernan doesn't make it easy by skipping around in the years '44-'45.  Or maybe it's me.
All I can see right now - the bomb has not yet been tested - no one is exactly sure how powerful this Gadget will be.  It does seem premature for the scientists to be arguing how to use the technology after the war is over, doesn't it?

  We know the Gadget must be getting BIGGER, more powerful -  as more and more of the Product is being sent on to the New Mexican desert.  And the bigger the project, the more people are involved - and I would imagine SECRECY is becoming more and more difficult and patrolled.

I do like the way DK interspersed the whimsical girls' stories with the sobering TUBEALLOY chapters.  Which of the responses in the Fireflies chapter,Chapter 8,  amused you?  Besides being amusing, there is much in this chapter that reveals the conditions within as the work continues, did you notice?

[bellamarie]

While these chapters were redundant on how important it was to keep this top secret, we can now see that "the product" is indeed progressing along to satisfaction/completion.

pg.  204  Virginia continued analyzing the material that came in the lab door__from where, she did not know.  Dr. Larson oversaw her lab's activities, and Virgina quite liked him...........he would occasionally stop by the lab to say hello and to check on progress and the all-important percentages.  

Dr. Larson was waiting until he had a group of bigwigs in his office to make that call.  Saying it out loud must have had more impact than passing around a number on a scrap of paper.    Whoever he was trying to impress and whatever those percentages meant to them, one thing was becoming clear to people like Dr. Larson:  The percentages were, compared to a year earlier, much better.

This was very interesting and an eye opener....

pg. 199  Even if the patient were to be transferred to another medical facility, even a military hospital, elsewhere in the country, it would present too much of a security risk,  too much of a potential leak of secure information.  Clarke knew that releasing the young Navy man from Y-12 to another facility was never going to be an option, not while the war was going on, and not while this man was spouting information about what he was doing at work.   Not only was he talking out of turn, he also wanted to travel to Japan and warn the emperor about what was going on here at CEW.

I felt so bad for this young Navy man.  He sounds like he has had a complete, mental breakdown, from working and learning about what they were creating, and how the government planned on using it.  D.K. has given us our first insight, of how participating in this project and learning what it is affected someone.  Imagine the thousands that worked here, and later found out the truth.  Living under these conditions, and secrecy was not bad enough, but to learn about what they took part in. I can only reiterate as I have in earlier posts, the mental stress these workers faced, later/after the war, had to be incredibly devastating for some.  These people were used by our government, enticing them with good wages, to create something their moral fiber may have been completely against.  They were not given the knowledge to choose if they would be okay with participating in such a project, that would go against the grain of who they are.  I didn't expect the government to inform them of "the product", but they could have asked them in the interviews for the job, if they would be uncomfortable with working on something that could potentially go against any moral or Christian beliefs, regardless of their patriotism.  I just wonder how many would have been so anxious to take these jobs given that information/choice.  Money can't always buy a person's soul.  Soldiers weren't even given a choice to choose to take these jobs, they were redirected with no choice.  

War is ugly, sacrifices must be made, freedom comes at a cost, we all have to look the other way at times when we don't agree with the policies or methods our government uses to keep us safe.  I understand all of this, but, these people were treated like lab rats.  I know I am younger than most here, and I have the luxury of not even being born during this time, so I can't relate to the attitudes of those who lived through this time, but I can say, it does not negate me having an opinion.  We can say, oh at least they were given activities, dances, movie theaters and bowling alleys, etc.,(under surveillance by the "creepers"), but from a mental standpoint, this is just horrible, in my opinion. These chapters only expressed more and more of how this affected these people.  More mental health facilities were needed, more mental health workers, more psychiatrists were brought in, and more wings needed to be built in the hospital.  

Whatever fun these women were allowed to have was interrupted with "the creepers" approaching them, reminding them they are being watched at all times. I seriously was creeped out reading how "the creeper" showed up on Dot's date, knowing her name, and interrupting them on a quiet country road inside their car.  It was disheartening when Rosemary and her roommate had gotten their apartment, had it all fixed up and were happy, only to be told it was being taken from them. Intrusion was everywhere,  Helen playing basketball, only to see the two men watching.  Celia being given a lie detector test without her knowledge, and being scared her letters back home was revealing something because they were being blacked out.  Kattie being happy to clean the tanks and floors for privacy.  

These chapters left me with a heavy, hurting heart.    

[mabel1015j]

I think it is a miracle that labor and, especially, African Americans have not precipitated a major revolution in this country. The stories in this book are just a hyper example of how badly most have been treated. Excuses about profitting or winning a war are used to take away the majority of rights of INNOCENT people. How many spies did they catch watching people whispering in a movie theater??? Ridiculous! What was the reasoning for keeping married African-Americam couples separated and women curfued? Insane!

The people in power so often use power just because they can and exaggerate dangers just so they can takemore control - just as now people talk of "shutting down our borders" to protect us from ebola, when all of ONE ebola patient has "breeched" our shores.

Scare mongers are disgusting, making statements about how Isis is going to come here and kill EVERYONE. the British learned in 1780 that tha's an impossible task. Sometimes the powers-that-be loose all rationale. But then it benefits their hold over us.

Obviously i wouldn't be one of the people working at CEW!   I might not be able to even finish the book it makes me so angry and depressed. I have studied enough history to know these things happened, but i'm not sure i want to read any more of such disgusting behavior of human beings to each other. Maybe i've had too much of it at once having just read Fall of Giants.

Jean

[bellamarie]

The titles to these chapters have me just shaking my head:

SECURITY, CENSORSHIP, AND THE PRESS  (More like...The Gestapo)

The One about the Fireflies... (Where in this chapter is there anything remotely in touch with a Firefly, it should have been labeled THE CREEPERS)

PUMPKINS, SPIES, AND CHICKEN SOUP, FALL 1944  (More like... project compromised)

The Unspoken Sweethearts and Secrets  (More like, "Don't Ask and Sexism")

Curiosity and Silence  " A three-year concentration of curiosity should be quite a potent brew for the average woman."       __Vi Warren, Oak Ridge Journal
(This is more like, a three year concentration camp for the average woman.)

I am trying to understand how D.K was able to write this book, and use such titles as if there were a light hearted attitude among the living conditions while working at CEW, .  This was no less or more, than a Gestapo mentality. The titles are as if D.K. is not in reality of what she is writing.  These conditions were physically, mentally and emotionally abusive, not to mention unconstitutional.  How does one equate these titles, to what is really happening in these chapters?      

Jean,  I am feeling your anger and disgust.  

All the fear mongering, brainwashing, subliminal messages everywhere, in letters, posters, ads "creepers", etc., and constantly being told to keep quiet, are ways of just controlling these people, so the government can use them to accomplish their goal.  It is a difficult book to read.  I'm just not sure the author even understands the material she has been given.  I get the feel the author sees this story as giving the reader the inside knowledge of women seen as heroes, helping to end the war.  Maybe I am ahead of myself, maybe D.K. will surprise me in the last chapters, so far, I see her writing these chapters so sterile, so matter of fact.  I am finding them incredibly upsetting.  Whether you agree or disagree to the use of the atomic bomb, I don't think anyone would argue this was a social experiment gone bad.

[JoanP]

"I have studied enough history to know these things happened."

I know what you are saying, Jean - I just wish we knew where to turn for more explanation of WHY they happened.  The segregated housing for blacks - I understand, sort of.  Segregation was the way it was in the US back then.  But separating the husbands from the wives?  Whose idea was that?  Why?  I'm wondering if the black children were kept out of Oak Ridge because there would have to be separate schools for them - and teachers too.
Oak Ridge is in Eastern Tenn....hilly, no fields, no plantations - so probably no blacks or facilities for them either.  Except those who came seeking the high paying jobs at Oak Ridge.
I'll bet they didn't stay on once the war was over...their families were elsewhere, not here.
Ursa - when you arrived in 1953, were there any black families staying on?

[JoanP]

Oh my - I was wrong!  Kattie Strickland stayed in Oak Ridge after the war.  I found this interview with her - in which she said she lives now in Oak Ridge, Tenn.  (the interview took place in 2005)  It's quite an interview...right now she's describing the huts in which they lived. 

I thought sure she'd have gone back to Alabama once the war was over - I'm looking forward to hearing the rest of the story...
Here's the Interview if you'd like to listen to it yourself.  A great sense of humor.

Interview with Kattie Strickland, resident of Oak Ridge in 2005

[marcie]

It seems that American society was more authoritarian before WWII. People seemed less likely to question the authority of the government and more willing to sacrifice personal "freedoms" for the sake of their country. It's so different reading about all of the secrecy and the "creeps" from our point of view now.

[bellamarie]

Thank you JoanP., for the link to the interview with Kattie Strickland.  It is nice to see when this interview was done she looked fairly healthy and nicely dressed, so it appears her life was good after the war. 

Listening to the interview I hear times where Kattie contradicts things that are in the book.  She states she knew what the Manhattan project was, that they talked about it in the plant.  She said they knew what they were working on. She also denies they were told NOT to talk about it, but mentions the signs that says not to talk about it outside the plant.  She says she wanted to be out cleaning with the others because she likes being with people, but she cleaned the bathrooms because no one else wanted to.  In the book it says she liked cleaning them because she wanted her privacy.  She also talks about how she and her husband would  sneak and buy cigarettes and beer and then sell them for a dollar a piece to  people every Saturday night, they made $75.00 each week, which was a lot of money considering her paycheck was only $12.00 per week.  She states that after the war many of the blacks returned to Miss., and the place thinned out because so many people left Oak Ridge.  It was interesting how when the interviewer asks how she felt after knowing the atomic bomb was dropped on Japan, her response was, "I was sick, the bomb killed so many people", you can see the anguish in her face,  then she goes on to say, "it wasn't any worse than what Japan did to them." ("Them" referring to those who dropped the bomb.) 

When listening to the interviewer, it is clear they had a pre interview, and he coaxes her for answers, and reminds her of them talking before.  I suspect she has some memory loss, and she also says she was hard of hearing before she worked in the plant, and then the loud running of the machines caused her to go deaf.  I was a bit surprised to hear the interviewer give his opinion early on in the interview, how he thought the bomb was a good thing.

Overall, it is a good interview, and it was good to put a face to the name in the book.

[JoanP]

I couldn't tell from what Kattie said in that interview if she had just forgotten the secrecy requirements - or if, as she said, she "just didn't pay it no mind."
Reading Chapter 8, she certainly didn't seem to fear the guards - did seem to be enjoying herself getting away with so much.
Here's the poster she spoke of - the first thing she'd see when she entered the gates.  Did she think it didn't apply to her? She says she saw it.

http://www.flickriver.com/photos/amse/2965051856/

Kattie seemed to be taking a lot of chances - while others seemed afraid of being watched.
DK writes that soldiers who were rumored to be immediately drafted to the South Pacific.  What would have happened to one of the girls - like Kattie for example?

[bellamarie]

Yes, it does seem to me, in Kattie's interview she did not pay any mind to the guards, rules, restrictions, or other things D.K. mentions about how strict living in Oak Ridge and working at CEW was, and how others were afraid.  Kattie being black, and a woman sure does not seem the least bit concerned about much, which surprises me.

In Kattie's interview she said, they talked about what they were working on inside the plant, outside the signs reminded them not to talk about it.  The fact she mentions they talked about what they were working on in the plant, gives better understanding as to how the young Navy man knew what was going on.  I was a bit surprised to hear her talk about her husband sneaking in beer and cigarettes, and how much money the two of them would make each Saturday night.  Back then $75 was a huge amount of money, that is six times more than their weekly paycheck, and back then that paycheck was considered good money.  Today cigarettes cost around $5.50 a pack with 20 cigarettes in a pack.  That averages out to be about twenty seven cents a cigarette, and they were selling one cigarette for a dollar.  That is one hefty income back then, it's no wonder she says she missed her kids, but she stayed because she couldn't make this kind of money back in Alabama, and she would send their money back home to her parents, to help take care of her kids.  

She also says she was allowed to go back home and visit her kids a lot.  She would leave on a Friday, and stay Saturday and Sunday, and sometimes call and say she won't be in to work on Monday, to stay an extra day.  This sure does NOT sound like there was a lot of strict rules to me. That is lenient to be able to call off back then, and not get fired.  Today, I wouldn't even consider calling off an extra day.  

I don't see that Kattie was taking a lot of chances back then, just listening to her and watching her, she was relaxed and comfortable, she was matter of fact.  She never once mentions fear of anything.  Isn't this odd, considering how much time and effort D.K. has taken in the book to emphasize how strict and guarded things were?    

I wonder what was going on in the bathrooms, she said she would let two people in, and they stayed in there for so long, then she would have them come out, and let two more in.  She said the bathrooms inside the plant were not segregated. 

This interview seems so contradictory, to the picture D.K. has given us in the book.  I am a bit puzzled.   

[marcie]

Thanks for that link to Kattie's interview, Joan. I read the transcribed text version of it. It does seem that she's somewhat forgetful. It was so long ago. I don't think that I'd correctly remember all the details of my experiences.

 It is interesting to hear of her ingenuity in making money... selling sugar packets from the cafeteria and also the items (beer, whiskey, soda, cigarettes) she bought off site.

[ursamajor]

There was a good sized black community in Oak Ridge in 1953.  I have no idea how many people left after the war, but many of the low level jobs disappeared and both white and black workers with them.  It was in a section of the city known as Gamble valley, because the original people who lived there were named Gamble.  The city was still completely segregated, but soon after the Brown vs. Board of Education decision the schools were integrated, long before the rest of the state.  The black kids were parceled out among the schools to lessen the impact on any one school.  The swimming pool was integrated the summer before.  The school psychologist told me that was done purposefully so if there was trouble it would be dealth with outside the school system.  If there were any major incidents they were not publicized and I don't know of them.

I believe there is still a fair sized black community in Gamble Valley, but blacks live all over the city now.  There was some grumbling when a black family moved into our neighborhood at the time, which was moderately upscale, but it never went past grumbling.

[JoanP]

Thanks, Ursa. an interesting post - to see that the city of Oak Ridge was still completely segregated in 1953 - though the schools were integrated long before the rest of the state.. ..and the swimming pools before that.  Would you say that the city of Oak Ridge had an easier time with integration than other cities in the south?

Marcie, I wouldn't remember the details from over 50 years ago either...except the events and circumstances that affected me - and my family directly.  Kattie seems to tell her memories of those days with relish - more animated when she tells those stories.

[JoanP]

"I am trying to understand how D.K was able to write this book, and use such titles as if there were a light hearted attitude among the living conditions while working at CEW... The titles are as if D.K. is not in reality of what she is writing.  These conditions were physically, mentally and emotionally abusive, not to mention unconstitutional.  How does one equate these titles, to what is really happening in these chapters?" Bellamarie

Bella - the only answer I can think of - you may have read more into "the reality of what DK is writing than what she has intended.  Of course there were missteps, there were those who cracked under the need for secrecy - but DK is writing of the experience for many (the majority) of those who voluntarily came to Oak Ridge - agreeing to abide by the requirements which were spelled out for them.  They were free to leave if the conditions got to be too difficult.

In the firefly chapter - I think it was Chapter 8, she writes -  
"These disparate residents (Oak Ridgers) had come together to work, to love, to get married, and plant Victory Gardens...they fought to smile through the lines, the mud and the long hours, dancing under the stars and under the watchful eyes of their government - an Orwellian backdrop for a Rockwellian world."

Do you think these titles were intended to represent their attempt to make the best of a difficult situation?  From the number of those interviewed who decided to stay on in Oak Ridge after the war, they succeeded.  Did you notice Dr. Clark's comments in his report - that attitude and a sense of humor had a lot to do with managing the mud, the secrecy?  From Chapter 8, our girls indicated that they had the sense of humor - no?

[bellamarie]

JoanP.,  Thank you for reminding me they could leave if they wanted to.  Indeed they could.  Yes, maybe the titles were to try to show they attempted to take a very bad situation, and do the best they could with it.....even under the surveillance of the "creepers."  These people wanted to make LOTS of money.  Some did have the choice, others did NOT.  This book has troubled me on many different levels, so it's hard for me to see the fireflies, but just maybe these people were able to. 

After watching Kattie's interview, for some reason I just am not seeing the doom and gloom that D.K. has written so much into this book.  Kattie had much humor in her interview when she spoke of things they did.  Her memory seemed more lacking, when she was asked dates, and ages.  I am early 60's and have a heck of a hard time when it comes to those as well.  She had great recollection of her events though.  Marcie, I agree, I like how Kattie and her husband took their ingenuity, and turned it into ways of making more income. She would have made a great business woman.  She talked about how she joked around with the guards, and how they had such fun.  I wish D.K. could have shared some of this personal, lightheartedness with us.  It would make things a bit more humanistic, rather than so sterile and restrictive. 

[ursamajor]

Just a note about fireflies - The children of Oak Ridge collected lightning bugs (fireflies) every summer for many years for some kind of scientific research (probably cold light).  They were paid a little bit for a hundred.  We never did know of any results.

[mabel1015j]

I've been thinking through these last few chapters about the effect of the secrecy and the surveillance would have on all of a person's relationships and how that would impact on your own psyche. D.K. has mentioned some, but i think having to be careful about what you say 24/7 must be enormously anxiety producing. How could you have any mental intimacy with anybody. You can't talk to your family about your work, that must create terrible frustation which could lead to other negative behavior. Having to skirt questions from family and strangers; worrying about the creepers, where are they? who are they? Who is this person popping up in the dark who knows my name? Who can you trust? How do you have any peace of mind, ever.

Kattie's breaking the rules must have felt like she and her husband were taking some control of their lives. I wonder if that was a coping mechanism for many others. ......... We need Robbie here to give us the psychologist's perspective.

I have to return my book to the library, there's a hold on it. So i'll just follow along and respond to your comments.

Jean

[PatH]

Just a note about fireflies - The children of Oak Ridge collected lightning bugs (fireflies) every summer for many years for some kind of scientific research (probably cold light).  They were paid a little bit for a hundred.  We never did know of any results.

That's interesting, ursamajor, when were they doing the collection?  Indeed, the fireflies were probably used in the efforts to get the chemical that causes the firefly light, firefly luciferin.  Scientists at Johns Hopkins figured out what it was, I think mostly in the 1950s, and they needed 15,000 fireflies to get enough to start figuring out what it was.  Now it's made artificially, and used in biological assays.

I assume the title of the chapter refers to one of the amusing smart-alec answers scattered through the chapter:

Q: What are you all doing over there?
A: Pinning diapers onto fireflies.

[bellamarie]

Jean,  I feel the same as you about the people not being able to live their lives in a normalcy, due to the "creepers" being everywhere.  I have no doubt this had to cause an effect on their psychic. But I am questioning if it really was as bad as the book is saying, considering Kattie is very matter of fact with how not just she didn't follow the rules, but others as well.  I don't know what to make of the contradictions between the book and Kattie's interview.  According to the book, anyone getting caught talking in or outside the plants could lose their jobs.  

I am reading a book called "Things That Matter" by Charles Krauthammer, and lo and behold, he mentions the Manhattan Project, and I found this interesting.  He writes:  

Herman Lisco, a gifted scientist and legendary teacher, German-born, he received his medical degree from the University of Berlin in 1936, came to the United States to teach pathology at John Hopkins University and was recruited to the Manhattan Project.  In secret, he worked with a team of scientists at the University of Chicago studying the biological effects of a strange new human creation: plutonium.  Later, he was flown to Los Alamos to study the first person to be killed by acute radiation poisoning.  Lisco performed the autopsy and, later, those of eight other victims of accidents at Los Alamos.  His findings were a scientific milestone, the first published account of the effects of acute radiation, exposure on the human organism.  A decade later, he was instrumental in producing a landmark United Nations report on the effects of radiation on humans and on the environment.

Regardless, if Kattie's account is less restrictive than D.K.'s accounts in the book, one conclusion I can make through the book, reviews of relatives of the people who lived and worked in Oak Ridge, and the plants, and many documented articles.....the government had no regard for the lives of the people they hired, or recruited to live and work in Oak Ridge.  The mere fact they were exposing thousands with radiation/plutonium, not to mention the mental effects the situations living and working there had on these people, shows me our government will do and say anything for the sake of their political goals.  

It really is NO different today.  Everyday we hear yet one more scandal where things were done, and hidden for the sake of elections/politics.   Charles Krauthammer deduces:  

"The uniqueness of the 20th century lies not in its science but in its politics.  the 20th century was no more scientifically gifted than the 19th, with its Gauss, Darwin, Pasteur, Maxwell and Mendell__all plowing, by the way, less-broken scientific ground than the 20th.  No.  The originality of the 20th surely lay in its politics.  It invented the police state and command economy, mass mobilization and mass propaganda mechanized murder and routinized terror__a breathtaking catalog of political creativity.

I heard last night in the most recent poll, 84% of Americans believe this president lies to us on major issues.  I can honestly say, I don't think  this government today would find enough people to fill one hutment, to work on a Manhattan project today.  The trust in the government, and the knowledge of their disregard for safety to the American people is no longer there.  These people flocked to Oak Ridge for money, no questions asked, and they remained for money, even in the worst of conditions.  You could say today we are better off as far as the economy, so of course people wouldn't flock to a secret place, to work on a secret project.  The difference today for me is the level of trust.  NOT patriotism, I believe Americans have as much patriotism today as those in the 40's, they just have far less blind trust, and with good cause.

PatH.,  That is so interesting about the fireflies.  I remember as a kid catching them and putting them in a mason jar just to watch it illuminate.  Today, me and my grandchildren still enjoy catching them and making their light into a diamond ring on our finger.  Some things never change.  Fireflies, what fun!!! 

[marcie]

In the section, TUBEALLOY ~ Pumkins, Spies, and Chicken Soup, I was astounded that the third of three men trying to unclog a tube that exploded had survived the leak of radioactive materials. Maybe because it was in the form of steam (though Kramish credits his mother's chicken soup which she gave him in the hospital)? I looked up Arnold Kramish and he didn't die until 2010. I can understand the General stepping in and keeping the cause of death of the other two men from the coroner's office. I think those would be public records and, if everything about the Project was secret, he couldn't let that information out.

I didn't recognize the name, Paul Tibbits, but I've seen the film, Twelve O'Clock High, a 1949 American war film starring Gregory Peck about aircrews in the United States Army's Eighth Air Force who flew daylight bombing missions against Nazi Germany and occupied France during the early days of American involvement in World War II. The film is loosely based on Tibbits.  

Wikipedia says that the Enola Gay was named for Tibbit's mother. Throughout his life, Tibbits seemed to think that the bombings were necessary to defeat Japan which. In a 1975 interview he said: "I'm proud that I was able to start with nothing, plan it and have it work as perfectly as it did ... I sleep clearly every night." "I knew when I got the assignment," he told a reporter in 2005, "it was going to be an emotional thing. We had feelings, but we had to put them in the background. We knew it was going to kill people right and left. But my one driving interest was to do the best job I could so that we could end the killing as quickly as possible."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Tibbets#War_against_Japan

[PatH]

Yes, I still like to catch them too.

[marcie]

I've never seen an actual firefly :-(

There is some info about the lack of fireflies in California at http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2872/why-arent-there-any-fireflies-in-california

[maryz]

Marcie, I'd never heard that there were  no lightning bugs in CA, until this summer.  Our grandson-in-law has just moved to MD, after growing up and living his life in San Diego.  He was fascinated by them when he got a chance to see them.   

On topic, this article was in our paper this morning - about demolishing one of the old buildings at the Oak Ridge site.

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2014/oct/10/giant-uranium-processing-building-will-be/?local