Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online

[bluebird24]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

January Book Club Online:

The  Boys in the Boat
by Daniel James Brown

The #1 New York Times–bestselling story about American Olympic triumph in Nazi Germany.  "Out of the depths of the Depression comes an irresistible story about beating the odds and finding hope in the most desperate of times—the improbable, intimate account of how nine working-class boys from the American West showed the world at the 1936 Olympics in Berlin what true grit really meant...  The emotional heart of the tale lies with Joe Rantz, a teenager without family or prospects, who rows not only to regain his shattered self-regard but also to find a real place for himself in the world. Drawing on the boys’ own journals and vivid memories of a once-in-a-lifetime shared dream, Brown has created an unforgettable portrait of an era, a celebration of a remarkable achievement, and a chronicle of one extraordinary young man’s personal quest." - Amazon.com

DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:


PROLOGUE, PART ONE..............................JANUARY  l -  7          
PART TWO...............................................JANUARY  8 - 14
PART THREE............................................JANUARY 15 - 21
PART FOUR Ch. 13-15...............................JANUARY 22 - 28
PART FOUR Ch. 16-end.............................JANUARY  29 - FEBRUARY 4~



QUESTIONS PART II

1. We learn a lot about rowing and boat building technique in this section. What did you find most interesting or strange?

2. If you have competed in a different sport, what do you relate to in the rowers' experiences.

3. Joe suffers from the "elitism" of some other boys. What other forms of elitism do we see in this section? Do you see any similar problems in your own life?

4. Why do you think rowing events were so popular as spectator sports then ("as important as the World Series", larger crowds than football games), and not now?

5. Do you find the description of the races exciting? How does the author maintain suspense, when we know the outcome?

6. Does learning about Joe's stepmother's family change your opinion of her?

7. We've now met two different craftspeople/innovators: the English boat builder and the German filmmaker. Do you see any similarities? 

RELEVANT LINKS:

1936 Film of Olympic Rowing

Daniel James Brown Website and Information

Interview With the Author, Daniel James Brown.

Discussion Leaders: Ella & JoanK

http://www.huskycrew.com/1936.htm

I did not read the historylink webpage.
I read this page.

[Jonathan]

'But not just about me. It has to be about the boat.'

What an exciting achievment Joe can look back to. So why the tears? I find all your explanations for the tears very interesting. And what an opener for a story about winning a gold medal at the Olympics. Joe, it seems, is very pleased to have his story told. The author, in the interview, wishes another 'Joe' will come along with another book. And what an amazing, supporting cast. A boat builder whose musings suggest a Strativarius creating a violin. After what George Pocock put into it, can there be any doubt that his boat would give the crew a competitive edge? A megalomaniac dictator trying to whip his country into shape and having to compete with sport coaches all over the world. What a foil Hitler becomes.

Fred, I believe, deserves much of the credit. You're all to hard on him. Fred brought his kid brother back from Pennsylvania, and took him in for a short while. Fred got Joe back to high school, and then on to U Dub...and glory.

Thanks for all the glorious links. I've enjoyed them all, but especially the one on Bob Moch, the coxswain. Getting 40 strokes per minute out of those superb athletes! WOW!

[hysteria2]

I'm a bit late to the discussion - life happens. The book so far is amazing. I am so impressed by the resiliency of the characters. Hard times make for resourceful people. Joe certainly was dealt not one but many blows in his young life, but each time he made the best of a very bad situation. As I was reading, all I could think of was how today's youth would fare in Joe's shoes. Have we as a nation become "soft?" Could we make lemonade from the lemons we have been given? I don't know. I'm sure I will continue to be awed as the characters develop and the story unfolds. I am looking forward also to the links you all have provided. (I am just now catching up.)

Just to get in the spirit of the book, I bought a rowing machine! OK, it's a "starter" machine, but let's just say I now have a profound respect for Joe and his teammates.

[Ella Gibbons]

HYSTERIA BOUGHT A ROWING MACHINE!

Wow, what motivation!  Pocock talks about the value of rowing, oldest chronicled sport in the world. Really!  I skimmed the internet for the oldest sports and that wasn't mentioned but I'll believe Pocock knows whereof he speaks.  

You must let us know about the "pain" involved, HYSTERIA, and what values you are receiving!

HI JONATHAN!  Yes, I remember FRED, Joe's older brother, a chemistry teacher I think he was and he was so good to Joe - 3 meals a day and a sense of family.   How wonderful that must of seemed to Joe.

All these people, the pictures in the book - they are all so good looking, in such good shape for all the "hard times" as Hysteria said.

Thanks, BELLE, for the quotes, are you reading from the book or a device?  I would love to refer to pages but that is difficult with such technology.

Love the pictures - http://www.historylink.org/index.cfm?DisplayPage=output.cfm&file_id=9404

My husband loved wooden boats, we fished Lake Erie for years, but eventually went to the fiberglass.  I think it was a Thompson boat, the first we had and we each took an end and loaded on the trailer and off we went to go catch walleye.

[bellamarie]

I think Fred, the older brother has helped Joe, but as for "much of the credit", I am not sure I can agree with you Jonathan.  I just don't understand why Fred allowed Joe to remain in the schoolhouse at the age of 10 yrs. old, working endless hours, and then at the age of 14, Fred did not ask Joe to come live with him knowing he was living in the half built house with no income or food.  I feel Joe deserves much of the credit for his achievements, because he stayed in school, worked hard, and struggled through the pain and loneliness of being abandoned and living by himself.  Why is Fred and his wife keeping the whereabouts of their father from Joe?  I have so many unanswered questions in these chapters where this family is concerned.

Ella, I am reading the book on my iPad so I just copy from whatever page it shows.  Since we are reading in sections and I don't read ahead, I hope it makes it easier to find my quotes with whatever device, you all are using.

[JoanK]

HYSTERIA IS ROWING! Have you rowed before? What's it like? (Where does it hurt the most?) How many strokes a minute do you do?

And ELLA, you have rowed too. How different is rowing out to catch walleye from the racing rowing the book talks about?

I love the pictures of Pocock, too. He looks like I imagined -- like someone who's lived a good life. we need more craftsmen like him.

According to the article, wooden boats were replaced by fiberglass in the 1968 Olympics, and that was the beginning of the end for American dominance in rowing. Does that mean that it was Pocock's better boats that gave the US the edge?

[PatH]

Joe's father has disappeared from the scene before when things got too much for him.  He fled to Canada when his first wife died--couldn't bear thinking of what he'd seen in the final illness--was probably having some sort of breakdown.  His stepmother seems to have been at the end of her tether, and any problem with Joe, even minor, pushes her over the edge.  She's probably given her husband some sort of ultimatum about Joe.  Anyway, I think the father agreed to leave Joe behind because the extra stress would push him over the edge.  Why didn't he get in touch later?  Maybe he felt too guilty to face Joe after what he'd done, and maybe his wife still didn't want to have anything to do with him.

I hope we find out later in the book just what was going on.

[PatH]

Hysteria, I hope it turns out that you like the rowing machine.  It's wonderful exercise, uses so many muscles.  I guess that now you know exactly which ones.  My neighbors across the street, the parents, do some sort of online rowing contest.  Everyone turns in their data.  The machines seem to calculate how "far" you've rowed, but I don't know if speed is also calculated.  The children are both on teams, the boy in high school, the girl in college.  It seems to be a wonderful positive part of their lives.

[hysteria2]

Let's just say that while I can do a 10K (walking, not running) on the treadmill, fifteen minutes of rowing makes me question my will to live! It's tough! And I am doing it at my own speed in the comfort of my living room (no cold water, awful weather, etc.). As I said, my respect for these rowers increased exponentially after my first session. But I will keep it up because it strengthens the body, mind and spirit.

[pedln]

As I was reading, all I could think of was how today's youth would fare in Joe's shoes.

Hysteria, I wouldn't give up on today's youth just yet  --  the little girl who survived that small plane crash is a good example of inate resourcefulness, and I think, some good parenting done there too.

One would probably not call Harry Rantz a good parent, but could part of Joe's resourcefulness have come from him?  Harry was not afraid of work, was not afraid to try new things, and passed on some of these skills to Joe.  (Too bad he was afraid to try saying "NO" to his wife.)

I'm going to check at my gym.  Surely they have rowing machines.

[Ella Gibbons]

PEDLIN, yes, what that little girl did is almost unbelievable, is it innate resourcefulness or a learned response or whatever psychologists call it?  Wasn't she just 7 years old?

And as you said, Harry, Joe's father, did pass on some good characteristics to Joe.

HYSTERIA, mind, body and spirit!   We all need that, gosh, what we have going here is a good thing isn't it, everyone getting in shape at home or in the gymn.

I think it was in the 80's that gyms first became popular, don't you think?   We called them "spas."  I belonged to one for a few years back then and loved the water exercises and then my dry skin stopped that as the chemicals in the water produced a rash.

[Ella Gibbons]

No, no, JOANK, we didn't row a boat on Lake Erie, Oh, goodness, no.  It's too rough, waves, storms coming up quickly.   We had a motor on that boat, an outboard to start with and in our little wooden boat we didn't go out very far from shore.  What energy we had, after working all week, we would pack up and go to the Lake for the weekend. 

Does anyone live in a lilttle town like Sequim?   Do they still exist?  And living through the "crash," how difficult it was for so many families, particularly farm families, do you think?   I never wanted to depend upon good weather for my livelihood, and to make the mortgage payments, I am sure it was really tough.

"Dozens of families had simply walked away from their home and farms in Sequim that fall."

And the dreams they must have had.

Did your parents talk about the '29 crash and how it affected them?

[FlaJean]

Joe learned a lot from his dad and Harry did spend time with Joe in the early years.  But introspection was certainly not part of Harry's makeup.  What was he thinking when putting that young, perhaps immature, wife into those situations.  He made a lot of bad choices, but I believe he did give Joe a lot of love in his earliest years.

I agree with Jonathan that Fred was a good brother to Joe.  Joe could have had a nice home life with Fred if his dad hadn't come back from Canada and taken him from that life IMO.

[PatH]

Does anyone live in a lilttle town like Sequim?   Do they still exist? 

Nowdays people retire to Sequim, and sit looking at the water and wishing it wasn't such a hassle to get to Seattle.  I had a friend who did this.  It's pronunciation is odd: skwim.

[JoanK]

Tomorrow, we go to Part II and see the boys actually starting their rowing careers. Did you notice, the discussion is five weeks, not four, and goes over slightly into  February. This fits with th "Lady of Shalott discussion, which doesn't start the first.

How is the pace for everyone? too slow? too fast? Let us know.

[Jonathan]

The pace is just fine, Joan, as we take stock of the author's style and Joe's memory. Joe certainly seems to have been a resourceful, talented, clever and courageous boy.  All in all, an amazing childhood. Two pictures in my book illustrate that very dramatically. On page 24, Joe at age three, is shown with father, mother and brother, all adults. On page 33, Joe, about 12?, with his new mother, and dad, and his two half-brothers, whom he saved from the fire. Life was tough for all ot them.

It's interesting to hear that rowing strenghtens body, mind and spirit. That may explain why it became a favorite college sport, popular with the social elite in England. Before we get to Berlin the boys will take on the guys from Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Oxford and Cambridge. Does that make our boys look smarter than all of them?

And isn't it all a great irony. Rowing started out as the occupation of galley slaves, working the oars as punishment for crime or forcefully impressed into service. Those triremes must have been a glorious sight flying across the wine-dark seas. I wonder did they ever race for the sport of it. Did the rowers feel their minds improved?

[bluebird24]

http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2013/07/04/berlin-olympics-rowing

[Jonathan]

A trivia question. Which state has or had the most lighthouses? Michigan. Were you ever caught in stormy seas, Ella? Even Lake Erie can get mean.

[Jonathan]

Thanks, Bluebird, for another splendid link. That it is the most dramatic finish photo.

[JoanK]

Thank you, BLUEBIRD. We'll definitely be talking about that video.

The questions for Part II are now in the heading.

[bellamarie]

Although, I moved to Ohio when I married my hubby, I was born and will always remain in my heart a Michigander, so this was an easy one for me Jonathan.  Let's Go Blue is my chant......Michigan has the most lights of any state with over 150 past and present lights.  Even though we boast the Great Lakes state, you would think Minnesota with it being, the "Land of 10,000 Lakes."

[Ella Gibbons]

PATH:  People retire to Sqim now?   We must have a map of the place somewhere, is it in the book?

JONATHAN, no, never caught in a storm, although it's tricky.   We started, when we were young, night fishing and didn't go out far, but then later, we parked a permanent trailer up there and spent weekends and made a lot of friends.  Some of them had radios and they alerted us, but then we got all the "gadgets" eventually in a much bigger boat and were soon going to the border with Canada and that's scary.   There is no border and I kept yelling at my husband, the captain, that we would get fined fishing there, how did he know we were in still in USA waters?   I think he liked the challenge and he loved fishing, we trolled in the lake in later years, fun, and swam from the back of the boat.

So we were a team of "family in the boat."

[Ella Gibbons]

We were a family of girls and none of us were athletes, I couldn't even keep roller skates on when I was young.   Remember you  had a key to tighten them?  So am not even pretending that I know anything about sports except a few observations from the book and listening to people now and then.

Rowing as a sport, DB tells us, depends upon every member of the crew pulling together, they must be synchonized.  Doesn't that differ from  most sports? 

And it seems to me that the coxswain is irreplaceable - he calls out the strokes - M I B - MIND IN BOAT.

Yes, of course, I know about "elitism."  We experienced it as a family, doesn't everyone?  hahhahaaa   We wore each other's hand-me-downs and tried to "up" them a bit.  And I think everyone in my little town  knew when the first million dollar home was built and longed to see the inside of it.  Actually, I did, I dated briefly one of the boys in the house.

Joe's experience with the elitism of the university students probably made him stronger, purposefull - as Coach Bolles said the character of those rugged kids who had worked hard made it - made a good crew; they "smiled easily and openly........ They looked you in the eye...... they joshed you, they looked at impediments sand saw opportunities."

Doesn't the author write well?  I like the way he puts sentences together, that last one about "impediments and opportunities"  is a good one.

[JoanK]

I agree. I think he's an excellent writer.

That sounds like a great experience, ELLA, even if you didn't row. So you don't count fishing as a sport? Some might disagree, although you're competing against fish, not people.

"We experienced it [elitism] as a family, doesn't everyone?  hahhahaaa"

I wonder. I wonder if the family that looked down on us was being looked down on by someone else.

I remember a strong lesson from my childhood. The girl next door, about our age, was an expert at looking down on us. Everything we had or did was somehow inferior to what SHE had or did. Her dining room windows overlooked ours, and she would even look through and later criticize our table manners.

One day, I was feeling sorry for myself. I remember pacing the living room, wishing I was her, with all the beautiful things she had that we couldn't afford. The next day, I learned that at the very time I was doing that, she was learning that her father had died.

I never forgot that. I can't say I've never felt envious of someone else, but when I do, I remember that day.

[bellamarie]

Elitism.....this word is so ugly, powerful, and prejudice when it comes to how those who are elite, can make others feel.  Yet, if we all felt happy and content within ourselves, elitism would not be possible to have that empowering effect on others.   I grew up on a rural road, in a small town, and wore hand me downs, but the ironic thing is I did not ever feel elitism around me.  Yes, I know other kids at school had nicer clothes, but none of these kids ever made fun of, or treated me differently.  The first time I ever can say I realized a name brand clothing, was in high school when a very pretty girl in my class had a Bobby Brooks outfit, sweater and skirt.  It was just so beautiful and sharp looking, I could not help but notice.  She was a very nice girl, and did not act stuck up or snobby, so elitism was not even a factor.

Now when my daughter went to a Catholic grade school in a suburban city, she dealt with girls who treated her cruelly because she did not wear the name brand styles of clothes.  I bought her the name brands, Forenza, Swatch, Gap, Limited, etc., and she refused to wear them.  She said she did not want to be associated with those type of girls.  Now this is the first time I experienced elitism, and I was very proud of my daughter for not wanting to play into, or empowering these girls.  One day the girls tripped my daughter on her way to the bus and caused her to skin her knee badly.  The principal, Sr. Myra, saw it happen and since I taught in the school she informed me of who it was.  When the girls came to my computer class, I asked them why they were treating my daughter so cruelly.   The one girl's response was, "Julie makes us feel like we are stuck up and snobby, because she said she doesn't like to wear name brand clothes."  Talk about reverse psychology!  Most of the girls ended up liking my daughter Julie, and became friends with her. 

It is so cruel when others who have more, treat others with less, inferior.   

[pedln]

Looking at the Google Map, Ella, Sequim is a bit NW of Seattle.  It's actually on the northern part of the Olympic Peninsula, directly west of Port Townsend.  My daughter took me to Port T years ago, but I don't remember if there was a bridge or not.  Otherwise by ferry.  Or a long trip by car.   I can't find that Dungeness River where the boys catch their salmon.  Judy Laird, this is your territory.  Come help us.

I went to the gym yesterday and tried the rowing machine for five minutes.  Will try it again and need to learn about all its buttons.

This is not a criticsim of Joe, but I wonder if some of the teasing he experienced was good-natured comeraderie on the part of fellow team members.  Much like what one gets from siblings.  Someone used to sibling teasing might just laugh it off or toss it right back.  As far as background goes, these boys weren't too different from him.  I'm a bit puzzled by the scene Brown paints of Joe with the guitar when on the train to Poughkeepsie.  Was it mean teasing or good-natured?

[JoanK]

Pocock is making the boats out of redwood. In case you've forgotten, here are the trees he used:

[JoanK]

Yes, boys do tease each other endlessly. I guess the difference between good-natured back and forth and mean teasing is the response and what happens after the response.

[Jonathan]

So that's what he used for his boat.

'My ambition has always been to be the greatest shell builder in the world....I believe I have attained that goal. (ch 6)

How interesting that we're asked to compare Pocock with another artistic craftsperson, the German film maker Leni Riefenstahl.

'Triumph of the Will was everything Riefenstahl hoped it would be, and it still is considered by many to be the most successful propaganda film of all time.' (p95   'From her earliest years, she displayed an indomitable will to succeed.'

But didn't these two live in two different worlds.

But poor, homeless Joe is still the hero of the story.

'The shell house had become more of a home than the grim confines of his cubicle in the basement of the YMCA....Joe retreated into the life of the shell house. The boys might razz him about his low taste in clothes and music...but at least  he felt he had a purpose at the shell house.' (134)

When he does locate his family, he is turned away by his stepmother: 'Make your own life, Joe. Stay out of ours.'  Closes the door on him and goes back to playing her violin.

In his own way Joe was just as successful as Pocock or Riefenstahl, wasn't he? His daughter Judy thought so.

[marjifay]

I've just started the book, have gotten to page 11, doubt I'll finish it as I don't feel like reading about the depressing Great Depression.

Marj

[Halcyon]

I think Pedin makes an interesting point about the teasing. I've noticed in my own family how differently family members respond to teasing. Some brush it off and tease back while others take it personally and retreat to brood.

The question was asked to compare Pocock and Leni.  They were both very driven from an early age, they liked to work alone, were very hands on,  innovative and passionate.  I get the feeling that Leni could just as well have been making a propaganda film for the British, that the production of the fim was the most important part no matter the message.

[PatH]

There's a lot of craftsmanship in this section.  We also have Charlie McDonald, teaching Joe how to make shakes from imperfect pieces of wood.  He knows how to let the wood talk to him, by feel and sound and look, to know if it's good, and how to use the feel of the tools to make them work right.  I love these descriptions.  This kind of sympathetic understanding and respect for materials and processes is the basis for real craftsmanship.

Pocock works this way too, even more so.

[pedln]

There's a lot of craftsmanship in this section.

  And a lot of examples of resourcefulness.  Making the roof shingles is an excellent example of how people through the ages have "made-do" with the resources available.  Successfully.  Creatively.

Marjifay, stay with us.  There is much in this book that is uplifting.

[PatH]

Yes.  Marj, it starts out gloomy, but in a little while, as you get into Joe's story, you really get caught up in it, and it's a really enjoyable read.

[JoanK]

Yes, MARJ, don't leave. You'll see, that is background to understand how admirable people like Joe were.

JONATHAN: what a good summary of this section! And you've certainly captured the indomitable ambition of Pocock and LR. And HALCYON " They were both very driven from an early age, they liked to work alone, were very hands on,  innovative and passionate."

And HALCYON, doesn't your comment that Lena could have been working for the British: the film was the thing, not the message, remind you of Pocock, building shells for both Washington and it's competitors? The boat was the thing.
  

 
 
 

[JoanK]

Too many good comments for one post. Thanks for remembering the roof shingles, PAT.

And you're so right about responses to teasing, MARJ. Imagine me as a girl, taking the snobbery of the girl next door to heart in the story  I posted above, instead of seeing it as HER problem.

The ironic end to the story: her father's dying brought about a big financial change in the family; they had to sell the house she had so bragged about, as they could no longer afford it, and move. I barely saw her in the period before she moved, and never afterward. She cut herself off from contact with the neighborhood children.

I don't know if she would have wanted her former "friends" around her at this period, but she had cut herself off from that possibility with her earlier elitism. I imagine, she was afraid of being pitied or even laughed at.

[JoanK]

I'm becoming a ditz: or maybe a Californian. Marj clearly said the tree above was a cottonwood, but when  I saw a big tree, I automatically thought redwood.

Worse: Pocock's canoes were neither redwood nor cottonwood. The book clearly states they were cedar.

Oh, well: it's a nice picture of a cottonwood, from which canoes were NOT built.

[bellamarie]

This section has lost my interest a bit, but I will trudge through it.

[Ella Gibbons]

What do you think?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0kwnLzFMls

[hysteria2]

In Part Two we see how of the "boat" begins to give meaning to Joe's life. The incredible amount of hard work he had to put in, the experience and significance of the freshman victory, the daily fear of not having enough money to finish school (and then not being able to find work when school was over), and Thula's rejection of him (again) all made the "boat" his raison d'être. I'm sure it will become even more solidified as the book continues. (I wanted to strangle Thula BTW. I certainly identified with Joyce when she was so upset over the way Thula treated him and the way his father abandoned him.) I was gratified to see he was really human after all when he felt the pangs of jealousy because of the many students who just had money for school handed to them. He had to earn every penny by intense physical labor. I suspect, however, that he will have learned more than the students who coasted through school with financial assistance. As Joe bonds more and more with the "boat" and everything that makes the boat so important to him, we will be transported to the inner workings of his mind (at least I hope so). I want to see how he and his teammates were able to achieve what they did, how the coaches kept them going, and how Joe's background of poverty and rejection continued to contribute to his resolve to compete and win. (I have not read ahead, but I am so tempted to do so because I want to see how everything unfolds. Now! But I will read it according to the schedule.) How does everything come together to make the 1936 team victorious? Do we find out what happens to Joe and his teammates after the 1936 Olympics? Again I hope so. I also find it interesting we are privy to what is happening in Germany as the story continues. (Thanks for the post containing the propaganda film. I will watch it tomorrow.)