PBS Masterpiece 2015 ~ Downton Abbey and Other PBS Programs

[MaryPage]

 

See the 2015 MASTERPIECE schedule.  

NOW DISCUSSING

Let's talk about PBS programs that we enjoy.


Mr. Selfridge, Season 3

Watch the current season March 29 - May 17, 2015.

All sales are final as Harry Selfridge gambles his store, his fortune, and his personal happiness on an audacious retail strategy in Mr. Selfridge, Season 3.


Wolf Hall

Wolf Hall, a six-hour miniseries adapted from Hilary Mantel’s best-selling Booker Prize-winning novels: Wolf Hall and its sequel, Bring Up the Bodies, airs on Sundays, April 5 to May 10, 2015 at 10pm. Wolf Hall stars Emmy and Golden Globe Award-winner Damian Lewis (Homeland) and Tony Award-winner Mark Rylance (Twelfth Night) and shines a spotlight on Thomas Cromwell's involvement in King Henry VIII's marriage to and divorce from Anne Boleyn. See http://www.pbs.org/wolfhall and http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/programs/wolf-hall/

Discussion Leaders:  JoanP and marcie

I watched the first episode of WOLF HALL again tonight on ON DEMAND.  It was a pleasure, because I picked up so many little things not noticed the first time through.  Remember Mark, the young musician who left Cardinal Wolsey's service and Cromwell notices him in York House in the service of Anne Boleyn?  I am pretty sure that will turn out to be Mark Smeaton who dies accused of adultery with Queen Anne Boleyn.

[Steph]

Barb, now that's interesting. I too wonder how did you become a lawyer..The church seemed to have a lock on education at that time and private tutors for the rich.

[MaryPage]

Remember, Oxford had been around for nearly FOUR HUNDRED YEARS and Cambridge for over three hundred when the 8th Henry reigned as an absolute despot.

And most of you will have read the series of books featuring Matthew Shardlake in the time of the Tudors.  These are by C.J. Sansom and take place mainly in London, where Matthew is a LAWYER.

I suggest you scroll down to HISTORY at this website to get the answers to your questions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray%27s_Inn

Most lawyers during the time of this Henry would have gone to university, then become law clerks and then lawyers.

[BarbStAubrey]

Ok this is what I found about Cromwell - little formal eduction at all...

"Thomas received little formal education. About 1504 he traveled to Flanders and Italy, where he served as a mercenary soldier. While abroad he had an opportunity to learn French and Italian and to observe something of the diplomatic maneuvers of the European powers. When he returned to England about 1513, he married Elizabeth Wykes, whose father was also a shearer. Their only son, Gregory, proved dull and despite an elaborate education never achieved prominence.

In 1514 Cromwell entered the service of Thomas Wolsey, the great cardinal who dominated both Church and state. Cromwell's administrative abilities were soon recognized, and he became involved in all of Wolsey's business, especially the suppression of certain small monasteries and the application of their revenues to new colleges founded in Ipswich and Oxford. During this period Cromwell evidently studied law; in 1524 he was admitted to Gray's Inn, one of the Inns of Court. He also entered Parliament and in 1523 may have delivered a famous speech denouncing Henry VIII's war in France and its accompanying taxation.

When Wolsey fell from power, Cromwell attached himself directly to the court."

Thanks MaryPage for brining up Oxford - set me on my path to learn this about how you studied Law in this period - evidently there were big changes to the system with Elizabeth - This is what I found about studying at Gray's Inn versus attending Oxford or Cambridge where after 3 years of study you practiced law. Did not find any history that says Cromwell attended either Oxford or Cambridge - It appears Cromwell must have been a quick learner and learned enough in a shorter time than the traditional 12 to 14 years to keep him in Parliament and to successfully use the law to benefit Henry.

"Central to Gray's was the system shared across the Inns of Court of progress towards a call to the Bar, which lasted approximately 12 to 14 years. A student would first study at either Oxford or Cambridge University, or at one of the Inns of Chancery, which were dedicated legal training institutions. If he studied at Oxford or Cambridge he would spend three years working towards a degree, and be admitted to one of the Inns of Court after graduation. If he studied at one of the Inns of Chancery he would do so for one year before seeking admission to the Inn of Court to which his Inn of Chancery was tied—in the case of Gray's Inn, the attached Inns of Chancery were Staple Inn and Barnard's Inn.

The student was then considered an "inner barrister", and would study in private, take part in the moots and listen to the readings and other lectures. After serving from six to nine years as an "inner barrister," the student was called to the Bar, assuming he had fulfilled the requirements of having argued twice at moots in one of the Inns of Chancery, twice in the Hall of his Inn of Court and twice in the Inn Library.

 The new "utter barrister" was then expected to supervise bolts ("arguments" over a single point of law between students and barristers) and moots at his Inn of Court, attend lectures at the Inns of Court and Chancery and teach students. After five years as an "utter" barrister he was allowed to practice in court—after 10 years he was made an Ancient."

[MaryPage]

I find it interesting that C.J. Sansom seems to look upon Thomas Cromwell somewhat favorably, as well, and he has a PhD. in history!  AND he is English.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._J._Sansom

[Steph]

I still have Cromwell problems. But then I am an Anne supporter..Its funny, last year when we were in the tower chapel, the talk was given as always by one of the residents. He took questions at the end. A very full chapel and most of the questions was about Anne , her brother, etc. The party line is that they are not sure were Anne was buried, although it was definitely in the tower area.

[MaryPage]

I feel negative towards Anne herself as a personality, but I also feel a huge pity towards her, as I am sure as sure can be that she was railroaded to her swift death, as were the innocent men (well, at least innocent of adultery with this queen!) who died, as well.

And that was so wrong and wicked.

I also tip my hat to her for the speech she made on site just before they cut off her head.  I agree with the historians that it sure sounds as though she truly expected Henry to send word to spare her right up until the very last moment.  They also say that speech saved her daughter.

The absolute wickedness of that king seems to stretch the acceptance of facts we all possess beyond our ability to process those facts, and said acceptance quickly snaps back to not thinking about it.

But DO think about it for a moment.  Everything was done according to what would please this monarch and fulfill his demands upon his retainers as to what he craved on such and such a day.  So the fate of SIX queens was Two Divorced, Two beheaded, One died and one finally outlived him.  Wow!  Any normal human being with such a record would be reviled as a devil! And people wrote whole books in praise of him and blamed everything on CROMWELL?  I do have trouble with that.  I think Cromwell was the Great Enabler, and I despise him for that;  yet it would appear that whomever took that job could not have stayed in it unless they fulfilled the king's whims and appeased his every craving.  Given you had a choice between filling his demands or having your head chopped off;  well!

And I do get a strong sense that all during his service to the king Cromwell was very conscientiously attempting to do the best and wisest things for the country on the one hand, while keeping his job by satisfying the king on the other.  I think Cromwell felt the executed young women were sacrifices to the benefits he was bringing about to better the lives of all English peoples.  In short, I think Cromwell chose to live in a perilous position in order to do a greater service to his country because he feared no other man he knew of would take on attempting to do that while juggling with the daily demands of keeping the king happy.  He always knew there would be enemies who would poison the king against him at some point in time, but I doubt very much he believed they would dare murder him so swiftly and without a trial.  He probably thought he had time to muster up a very strong defense against whatever accusations they concocted, and it is extremely likely he had written documentation that would save him.  That is why they surprised him and whisked him off to the Tower and his death without time to fetch anything or see anyone.  And a year later or so the king said he was sorry and he wished he had him back!  But death is a very final thing, and too late for reconsideration of the right or wrong snap decision.

[Steph]

The only good thing about Henry VIII was his daughter., Elizabeth and she had so many emotional problems, it was sad. If only she had given in and had a child, I think the child could have been glorious as well..

[MaryPage]

Personally, I think she was spooked by the chancey thing giving birth was in those days.  Didn't matter, queen or scullery maid, women died like flies.  She herself experienced Jane Seymour's death, and all Henry did to try to save her.  I think Elizabeth I wanted to stay Queen and, while fretting about the succession, worried even more about dying and leaving an infant in charge to be manipulated by who knows whom.  Also, she was wily and experienced enough to never really fully trust any of the men who courted her.

Well, that's my take.  But when all is said, and said, and said, I was not THERE.

[Steph]

Neither was I, but way way back, I read an alternative history ( cannot remember the name), it postulated that
Elizabeth refused to marry or tell the father, but that she had a daughter,, who lived to reign.. It was an interesting twist.s

[MaryPage]

I remember rather vaguely reading a book about an actual legitimate heir with a name beginning with A;  a female who was a ward of Bess of Hardwick and a daughter of or niece of or some such to James VI of Scotland, I think that was the thing.  And a Prostestant.  But apparently Elizabeth I favored her a little bit for a while and then dropped her from all consideration.  Wish I could remember more about that.

Ah, I just googled it, and ARBELLA was her name.  I do not recall whether that was the  name of the book or not, but she IS listed as one of the chief possible heirs to the throne when you search for "heirs to Elizabeth I!"

[ginny]

I don't think Hilary Mantel was there either.  

I've just finished watching the entire first episode of Wolf Hall and enjoyed it tremendously, I am very impressed with the film production itself. I loved the introductory music, which repeats again about 3/4ths through the film.  It was actually driving me crazy until I remembered the title: I  first thought was by Henry VIII himself, and looked up the  title which I finally remembered (it's very repetitive) and it's actually  by William Cornysh instead, called Ah Robin, Gentle Robin. You can see it sung here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6YMmIEOqao

Wonder why they didn't use one of Henry's, he wrote quite a few, perhaps in coming episodes. Or maybe he's going to be the villain in the piece.

They have it on on one of  the CD's they sell at Hampton Court.

I always thought Norfolk was the epitome of evil. It will be interesting to see Mantel's "perceptions," or at least how the film makers develop them.

Really good television production, I thought.  One thing it's done so far is made me more interested in Wolsey, I must look up something more about him.

And Sir Thomas More!  How interesting to see how they are treating his character! That was a surprise to me, too.

Not sure what's wrong with Anne Boleyn's speech, is she affecting French or mockery or a lisp or what? Seems to come and go. It really makes me want to dig out the old Henry VIII and his Six Wives, with Keith Michell, remember that? I've got it here somewhere, it was really good. I thought the actor who played Cranmer was outstanding. I'd like to compare them.

[Steph]

Anne loved the French, so the speech may be affected, but I also read somewhere that she had a lisp.

[BarbStAubrey]

Well Hilary Mantel certainly made Cromwell not only likable but sexy and lovable rather than the stiff diplomatic who knows how to obtain and use power which was my historical view of the man and also Wolsey is comes across human as an old man rather than the ruthless church leader and out of favor advisor to the court that history shows him to be. And my oh my Ann plays her cards well behind the guise of a victim.

[MaryPage]

What stuns me is how likable they are showing Henry VIII, whom I despise so thoroughly.  Ick.

I am admiring Cromwell's agility in dodging the pitfalls of that terrible age, but do not care for his liason with his deceased wife's married sister.  Was that in the books?  Must have been.

The actor playing Cromwell wins my full admiration.  He is superb.  Beyond superb.  Amazing.  His own dead sister's boy, the one named Richard who has been his ward and is now his assistant in his household and who came to him and asked to take the surname Cromwell, is to become the great grandfather of OLIVER Cromwell!  Pity Thomas allowed him the name.

In Call The Midwife, I have a hard time believing the woman's shelter was so dreadful as short a time ago as NINETEEN SIXTY!  Well, they must know what they are passing to us as history, but it sure was, as they described it, Dickensonian.

[Steph]

Yes, the 1960 date amazed me. I had my first child in 1961 and cannot believe what they were showing. But the thing that broke my heart was the couple.. gay is gay.. and he was going to try, but you know how that sort of thing works.. Actually in 1954 where I grew up, the police raised what they thought was a brothel and it was, but for men only and they got some high flying locals.. Wow.. was that hushed up in a hurry. Since we had an air base, there was also a full col. and several other high ranks.. Amazing. But no one went to jail or even to court.

[BarbStAubrey]

I had not looked to see who it is and even if I had looked I doubt I would know anything about the camera people or who ever it is that sets up the scene to shoot with lighting - did you notice in Wolf Hall the various shots in the dark look like paintings by artists during the fifteenth century - the candle light and the moving lanterns and candles light as they walk - the glow on the faces and how the light picks up all the peaks and valleys in a face - amazing work.

Looks like Midwife is picking up the issue that Alan Turing experienced that we learned of in the recent movie where he kills himself because of the treatment. as I recall it took Britain a long time - over 10 years to recover after WWII and like even today the poor areas are always the last to see substantial change.

Strange to see our own early history or if not our own for sure our parents that we heard so much about growing up now being the grits for historical fiction - Selfridge's is depicting the stories we read written by Virginia Woolf, who we thought of as a modern writer compared to the likes of Edith Wharton - looks like veterans after every war are not treated with the same support we had for them when they entered the war. That many coming back to enter the work force is still not worked out - but again, the costume and lighting is so seamless it takes a minute away from the story to appreciate the treat to our eyes.

[MaryPage]

Barbara, I agree that the filming of Wolf Hall is gorgeous in every frame.

And it turns out that the "Mark" IS Mark Smeaton;  Cromwell said so in this episode.

Have you SEEN the movie The Imitation Game?  Breaks my heart to realize that the intense secrecy the British government (and ours and no doubt many others) insisted should extend in full for FIFTY YEARS after the war brought about the death of one of the greatest geniuses this world has ever known.  If only the King could have recognized his contribution with a ceremony soon after that war, how different his life might have been.  Instead, the present Queen gave him an award long after his death.  Surely if the whole world knew Turing had invented the computer, he would never have been prosecuted for homosexuality!

I do hope the attitude of this current generation, that is to say, that the vast majority of them could care less whether someone is Gay or not, will prevail for the remainder of our species existence.

[BarbStAubrey]

Mary Page from what I understand it had nothing to do with the secrecy but everything to do with his homosexuality the the drugs that by law were administered.

[MaryPage]

You are correct, Barbara, but you miss my point, which is that had he been honored with the fame he deserved, they would never have dared arrest him and force upon him the choice of taking women's hormones (horrors!) or going to jail!  They did it to an unknown college professor, but I just can't see them doing it to a world famous brain such as his or Albert Einstein's.  Can you, really?  And my point is precisely that it WAS the taking of hormones that caused him to take his own life, and if he had NOT been made to take them, he would have lived, and heaven only knows what more wonders he might have come up with.  He may well have made the difference in our winning that war!

[BarbStAubrey]

Could be MaryPage - I just look at the McCarthy era and saw no one was immune in the US and I have a feeling that attitude of intemperance was the thinking of the time so that I have to wonder if being better known would have protected him or more than ever being in the British national spotlight they would have wanted him to meet their idea of purity. We will never know will we... all sorts of horrors in history that we can look back on and say for the grace of god I was born... and not only know better but see the world accepting a changed attitude.

[Steph]

The oddest thing of all.. I grew up outside of a small town. In our school ( all 12 grades in two buildings), the school bookkeeper and one of the secretaries in the office were a known couple, invited to parties as a couple, played bridge, etc etc. female, one was known however as Jack , her whole life. Noone even blinked.. I would guess it was the small town, they are our friends, not a stranger?? Who knows.

[MaryPage]

Steph, I do think small town has a lot to do with it.  I grew up in a very small town in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia.  There were two boys, and strangely enough from a coincidence point of view they were first cousins, but then again, this was a town where you did not DARE to say a bad word about anyone, because sure to certain the ear into which you breathed that bad word would be closely related kin to the person you were badmouthing, well, these two boys were very effeminate from birth, I swear.  By the time they were playing with others, say sandbox days in our time, we all knew it by just osmosis.  I mean, four year olds did not know from homosexual.  And back in the day, we had not even HEARD the word sex.  But if you had asked me way back then if ------ was like the other boys, I probably would have piped up that no, he was more like us girls.  One of these boys was my age exactly;  in my class in grade school and I STILL KNOW AND LOVE HIM!  The other was two years younger.  And I swear, we all knew and never said.  When much older, probably teenage, one of my uncles asked me if ------ wasn't a "fairy," and I said yes, of course he was and always had been.  The younger one was very musical, and wound up going to NYC after High School.  He died of AIDS some years back, and I think of him often and with affection.  The one my age never married, went into and retired from one of the armed services, and took great umbrage in later years when some folks in town got into religious fervours of a type we did not grow up with and began to spurn him.  Sad to say, but we all went to Sunday School and church together, and no preacher we ever had ever said a word about homosexuality, or even spoke of it sideways.  Honestly, we never knew it was considered anything bad or wrong, and so we accepted it as something different that showed up in a few folks.  I love this man like a brother, and hate that he has to suffer this.  Most folk are dead now that we have reached 86;  there are only a handful of us left, and we all love him.  One of his younger cousins, the little sister of one of my best friends in this life and another classmate, tried to convert him a few years back, and now he won't attend any gathering that includes her.  But this fellow has always been the nicest, politest, most considerate person you could ever imagine.  He never dated, but in High School he would show up at the proms with as many as 5 dates.  Yep, he would pick up and give a corsage to every girl who had no date!  I swear!  And they had the jolliest and best evening of all of us!

[Steph]

Yes, I actually learned how to put on makeup from a male friend, Philip was not a manly man as they used to say. He graduated three years before I did, but we were family friends and since my mother never believed in makeup, Phil decided I should learn at 17 and he taught me. He went off to NYC, became a private secretary for a big theatrical producer and lived his life as he wanted.. Alas aids swept him away, but I still smile when I decide to put on even blush and think of the instruction.

[ginny]

I have not seen the second episode yet of Wolf Hall but I have a wonderful book which is probably free, it's long out of print, called A Short History of Hampton Court: With Numerous Illus. by Ernest Philip Alphonse Law dated 1906. It's 421 pages short and filled with rave reviews of the time.

What a wonderful book this is. The illustrations are all done by him, apparently, and they are the type like those by  AA Milne, but much bigger and more detailed. I wonder if people were taught to draw like this in the past, they are just breathtaking. He begins in Chapter I with the story of the building of the palace, and  Wolsey's career and life along with it and Chapter II is concerned with the "Splendid Decoration of Wolsey's Rooms," and the furniture, tapestries, etc. The illustrations, of Wolsey's closet, etc., are to die for.

It's a wonderful book and probably free online and it's just choc full of history.  

[BarbStAubrey]

I notice here on our local PBS we are having a weekday evening run on the history of Henry the VIII that goes on into Elizabeth's reign- I am thinking to be sure folks realize Wolf Hall is a novel based on History - I've been watching but Cromwell is not near as cute as in Wolf Hall and in fact rather sinister looking. This is really proving the point that a person's looks can adjust your perception of the same behavior as much as in the telling.   

[MaryPage]

AND the not insignificant matter of in whom's pay the authors of the histories are.

When second husband David & I did our month long tour of England and Scotland in 1971, I asked one of the guides, but cannot now remember what I was told:  i.e. I seriously disliked the layout of Hampton Court and many of the other lavish palaces.  You had to go through room after room after room just to see a particular room you wished to see.  Instead of corridors or hallways linking the rooms, they just ran into one another.  I really, really disliked that, and wish I could remember why they did it that way.  I mean, it is not as though they did not know from hallways or corridors.  I specifically remember at Hampton one corridor where the guide told us Queen Kathryn Howard ran up and down screaming and trying to get away from the guards who were there to take her away to her eventual beheading.  That sort of kind of stuck with me, albeit the reason for the layout of the rooms did not.

[BarbStAubrey]

MaryPage more than likely the arrangement of rooms grew with new realizations of how to live more comfortably -

The early castles and large houses had one huge communal room - often with a screen just inside the entry to block the draft - a large open fire in the center of the room and along the side walls at first were platforms often covered in furs and later individual poster beds with tapestry and full curtains that were pulled for privacy - everyone entertained on their bed and still later, an area at the far end had a larger platform built where the lord and lady ate privately -

At about the time when the lord and lady had a dais with a private table for dining and before the separate dining room, next to the entry and on either side so that an entry passage way was formed that a couple of hundred years later was widened to be the entry hall or vestibule, built on either side of the passage was one room where the cooking took place and the other where game and vegetables were brought, cleaned and stored -

The line of beds soon became separated and small rooms were opened off this main communal room that allowed more privacy and then levels were added - at first the height three story or more building was to accommodate the smoke from the pit fire in the center of the room and then later came chimneys - on and on -

Just as today if you remember back after WWII was the first family room that for inexpensive houses replaced a formal dining room and if a master had a bath at all it was at first a half bath, then a small bath with a shower and now we have master baths that are spacious, always with two sinks and often a separate shower and according to price range a Jacuzzi bath - some are so big you could serve an intimate formal dinner in them - all that in less than 70 years that in the 8th to the 17th century took a century to build new ideas - also those large country houses and castles were not built every couple of years - so it took awhile to incorporate these new designs.  

If you notice some of the great houses are one room entering to another and other country houses, as they like to call them, have a corridor running next to the window wall and all the rooms are open completely to the corridor, like three wall rooms with the forth wall this open corridor -

The early communal great halls that have been preserved were often a timber and wattle wing that later construction was added that is in stone or brick.

It is nice to see preserved the history but like you I prefer my larger master bath just as the families in Britain wanted more privacy and more privacy till they finally had the typical very late eighteenth century houses built with bedroom doors opening to hallways and corridors and the cooking in its own level with the sounds, steam and smells no longer assailing you or your visitors at the front door or in the living and sleeping areas.

Haha with the newer open designed living space we have almost gotten back to the concept of the communal hall - certainly the lofts we see in magazines put the communal hall back in the limelight with only the central pit fire missing.

[Steph]

Hmm, Older farmhouses where I grew up had a bedroom that could only be entered from the master bedroom.. Originally a nursery, but often used as unmarried daughters rooms. I had a dear friend who lived in one of those houses and I always remember trooping through her parents room to go to bed.. At least they had added a door.

[ginny]

I think the thing I carried away from the first Wolf Hall production in addition to what I've said already was the striking vignette of Mark Rylance going back because his wife in the show wanted him to, after her death and the death of his daughters, to see his father. And when he did what he saw when the old man turned around was himself being beaten (and kicked?) by his father as a younger man. I thought that was quite striking and memorable.

 I am not sure what that will portend for his character later, but it's bound to have some meaning  besides the obvious or they wouldn't have put it in the film.

[Steph]

Mark

[marcie]

Ginny, yes those flashbacks of Cromwell as a young child, being horribly beaten by his father, were awful. His father continued to taunt him even as an adult. He showed no pride at all in his son. It looked like Cromwell was going to hit his father with that tool he took up but then he just layed it down. I think he learn something of his character from those actions.

[Steph]

I suspect that in that era, it was considered toughening up your son.

[MaryPage]

There WAS that, yes;  but this man was beating up that boy like he intended to KILL him!  It was a wonder he had a brain left in his head or an unbroken bone left in his body.  Seriously!  At least, that is the way they portrayed it.  I doubt very much that anyone can cite this as undeniable fact.

[Steph]

A really good reason for me not to watch. I simply cannot deal with violence any more.

[ginny]

You can fast forward it or lacking that, turn your head, it was quite brief.  I would not let anything deliberately keep me from watching what is truly the event of the year on TV.

So far it's excellent,  really excellent. I've seen two of them now. Very high quality television of the kind you don't get much, much better than Downton Abbey, really a good show.  Have not really seen this quality since the original Brideshead Revisited with Jeremy Irons.

That said, there may be more violence to come.

I've seen two episodes so far and started the third last night. This DVR thing is the way to go! Watch it when you want.

Mark Rylance is carrying it with his soulful eyes and expression. The real Thomas Cromwell was not quite so appealing if his portraits serve nor was what he did something that the viewer would enjoy watching, that's skimmed over. The real Thomas Cromwell was fat, and had a very evil glint in his eye which even the portraitists of the day caught... which he'd have to have,  to do what he did. One pulls for Rylance, as Cromwell.  One would probably have shrunk in horror from the real one. Poor Thomas More, no love lost there between them.  One hardly recognizes him.

Henry seems quite weak here. I don't think that was the case. I don't think many people know that Henry VIII remained a Catholic till the day he died and attended Mass constantly.  There is more to history  that meets the eye in this production.   Norfolk is perfectly played as the embodiment of evil he was: unattractive  and nasty. Perhaps they all were. That actor, whoever he is, is good in that part.

One thing they might have done is to get the glint out of Rylance's eye by better lighting. The lights are so bright he's having to face that apparently  they are reflected in his eyes, and whatever glint was intended or that he manages to demonstrate  actually only shows what kind of lights he's having to look into.

But honestly as a Rylance festival, he makes it come alive and that soulful expression and his weak little tentative voice draw the viewer's sympathies.  Oscar, Oscar! As they said in the Downton parody. Oscar!

[MaryPage]

I have become a smitten fan of Rylance, as well and all!

[Steph]

Interesting that Henry hung on to the end, but I think he was his version of a catholic, not the popes.. He also always reminded me of a spoiled child.. He wanted what he wanted and no swaying him..

[BarbStAubrey]

Haha yes, not the Pope's which is the political aspect of the church rather than the Theology and traditional practices practiced among whatever group was incorporated into the Holy Roman Empire where, at the time the Kings were in power by virtue of the Pope crowning them and they, the kings and the Pope, were partners in governing most of Europe, where as the Christian parts of Asia broke off from Rome in the 12th and 13th century. Today, and more because of the French Revolution than the Protestant Revolt, so many folks do not see the dual role and nature of the Catholic Church because they see their government taking on that role and therefore, assume the Church is simply a prayerful belief system. Even Luther, after his marriage failed that was only to snub his nose at Rome, he then came back and practiced the traditions of Mass and the sacraments etc in his elder years.

[MaryPage]

I think it is very much part of each of us to return to our roots;  to that which we were raised with and which most calms the deepest part of our being.

True story, and I still recall it and laugh any time there is a mention of someone returning to their most basic religious habits.  The fellow involved is most likely dead now, as most of my peers are, but he would laugh and admit to the truth of this happening:

We were on a plane back in the late fifties, a very pleasant place to be in those days.  We were both involved heavily in a political campaign at the time, so we were well acquainted fellow workers, but not intimate friends.  However, I knew him well enough to know he was an avowed atheist who was born and bred a Roman Catholic.  All was well, when suddenly the plane lost altitude and there was extremely heavy turbulance.  This guy cried out:  "Jesus, Mary & Joseph!"  And crossed himself.

The bad minutes past quickly, and all was well again.  I, of course, burst out laughing, and he joined in.