Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online

[JoanK]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

March/April Book Club Online

Emma
by Jane Austen

"I am going to take a heroine whom no one but myself will much like”  Jane Austen of Emma. Will you like her, the heroine who Austen claimed was most like herself, and who inspired a movie called "Clueless"? If not, there's lots more to like in this classic novel of love, misdirection, and social class.

Schedule

March 1-5       Part I: Chapters 1-7
March 6 - 12   Part I: Chapters 8-17
March 13        Part I: Chapter 18, Part II Chapter 1-6  

QUESTIONS PART I CHAPTER 18, PART II CHAPTER 1-6.

1. Why does Emma dislike Jane Fairfax so much? Do you believe the reasons she gives?

2. What causes the "interesting and animating suspicion"  that "enters Emma's brain" while talking about Jane Fairfax? What evidence does she have? What kind of trouble will she get into now?

3. What does the news about Mr. Elton tell us about his character?

4. "Harriet was one of those, who, having once begun, would always be in love." Do you agree? Do you know anyone like that?

5. Why is Emma so predisposed to like frank Churchill? Why is Knightly so predisposed to dislike him? What is there about him that confirms both their opinions? What do you think?

Text of Emma ~~~ Emma review ~~~ Austen related books ~~~ Jane Austen biography

Discussion Leader: JoanK

Ok, let's move on on Friday, and read

Part I Ch 18, Part II Ch. 1-6.

It's only 50 pages, but we won't spend long on it. This is a bridging section, to start focusing on different characters. (Sorry, I cant come up  with a new proposal of marriage in EVERY segment).

A reminder: Austen introduced her characters in the beginning, but in case you forgot:

FRANK CHURCHILL: Mr. Weston's son who, after Mr. Weston's first wife died, was raised by his rich Uncle and Aunt, Mr. and Mrs. Churchill. They had  no children of their own, so made him heir to their fortune and he changed his name to Churchill.

This may seem very odd to us, but is based on what really happened to one of Austen's brothers. The Austen's were struggling, so a rich family took one of their children to raise, on condition he change his name.

[JoanK]

MRS. AND MISS BATES are the widow and daughter of a clergyman. Hence they are "gentlewomen", in Emma's social class. But they have been left very poor. It is one of Emma's "duties", as the chief gentlewoman of the town, to visit them from time to time, so they won't feel neglected.

They had raised a poor granddaughter of Mrs. Bates whose parents had died, JANE FAIRFAX, until Jane was nine. After that, friends, the CAMPBELLS, took her into their house in London, to be company for their daughter, Miss Campbell, and to train as a governess. Recently, the daughter had married a MR. DIXON, and moved to Ireland. Jane is going to return to Highbury.

[JoanK]

Not every one in the "upper class" was rich. Since the wealth and land went to the oldest son, their were always lots of other family members, who'se background entitled them to be "gentlemen" or "ladies", but who had little or no money or property. The men were only allowed to work in a few professions (the Army, Navy, clergy, and law) which might not give them enough money to leave their families well off. The women were expected to marry well. If they didn't, they would live as a poor relation in a wealthy relative's house or be a governess.

Many children were left motherless, or parentless, as these were. They were  fortunate if some rich relation raised them and taught them the manners "proper" to their class, so they could marry well or enter one of the allowable professions.

[bellamarie]

Jonathan, 

I'll go to any lengths to find out how this all ends, as soon as possible. Only kidding. I want it to last forever. I had no idea village life could be so entertaining.

I had to giggle when I read this, especially,  "I want it to last forever."  I was doing a writing board on Pintrest and came across a few  quotes that fit well with your thoughts here Jonathan.  Austen's books have always made me feel like this, that is why I love her so much!

"Good books don't give up all their secrets at once."  Stephen King

"I declare there is no enjoyment like reading."  Jane Austen

"I'm in love with cities I have never been to, and people I have never met."  John Green

"Sometimes you read a book so special that you want to carry it around with you months after you have finished just to stay near it."  Markus Zusak

JoanK., Thank you for the familiarizing the characters and their places and families.  50 pages sounds good to me.

Jonathan,  She's more or less dropped her painting and music, and reads very little we're told. Usually just the first chapter or two.

I get the sense from this statement, that Emma is a bit restless with her life.  She is on the verge of changes, she needs more.  And I have a feeling more is about to come in her life very soon.

[Halcyon]

Bellamarie  Thank you for the wonderful quotes about reading.

I agree.  Emma does seem restless.  Difficult environment for a bright young woman.

[JoanK]

Yes, and she's a people person, who needs a more stimulating social environment.

What did you think of her reaction, when she realizes her blunder?

[Jonathan]

'...no enjoyment like reading' Jane Austen

Here's something about her reading habits:

'At Steventon rectory in Hampshire, the Austen family read to one another at all times of the day and commented on the appropriateness of each selection. "My father reads Cowper to us in the mornings, to which I listen when I can," Jane Austen wrote in 1808. "We have got the second volume of (Southey's) Espriella's Letters and I read it aloud by candlelight." Ought I  to be very pleased with (Sir Walter Scott's) Marmion? As yet I am not. James (the older brother) reads it aloud every evening - the short evening, beginning about ten, and broken by supper." Listening to Madame de Genlis's Alphonsine, Austen is outraged: "We were disgusted in twenty pages, as, independent of a bad translation, it has indelicacies which disgrace a pen hitherto so pure; and we changed it for (Lennox's ) the Female Quixote, which now makes our evening amusement, to me a very high one, as I find the work quite equal to what I remember it." (Later in Austen's writings, there will be echoes of these books she has read out loud, in direct references made by characters defined through their bookish likes or dislikes: Sir Edward Denham dismisses Scott as 'tame' in Sandition, and in Northanger Abbey John Thorpe remarks, "I never read novels" - though he immediately confesses to finding Fielding's Tom Jones and Lewis's The Monk "tolerably decent". From Alberto Manguel's A History of Reading, 122-3.

No mention of The Vicar of Wakefield. But... The Monk. That's just the greatest gothic.

[JoanK]

JONATHAN? Have you read it?

Austen loved Gothics. her book "Northinger Abbey is a spoof on them. What is that other gothic she mentions?

[BarbStAubrey]

Here is the Espriella - https://archive.org/details/lettersfromengla01soutuoft

It's a travel book - not what I imagined from the excerpt Jonathan shared.

And here is Sir Walter Scott's poem; Marmion, A Tale of Flodden Field.

http://www.fullbooks.com/Marmion--A-Tale-of-Flodden-Field1.html

William Cowper was a popular Poet with several books to his credit

Madame de Genlis's Alphonsine is only available in its original French

The Female Quixote: The Adventures of Arabella by Charlotte Lennox

http://lubrixa.com/ebooks/t/the-female-quixote-or-the-adventures-of-arabella.pdf

[bellamarie]

Barb,  How exciting to learn so much of the Austen family reading. 

I suppose their reading, was much like our family sitting around watching tv or movies, now that we have dvr and Netflix.  One has to amuse themselves in which ever way possible, to get through long days of summer and winter.  I'm suspecting their reading was much more intellectual than our movies, television programs and not to mention these apps and games our kids spend endless hours doing.

[bellamarie]

JoanK.,  

What did you think of her reaction, when she realizes her blunder?

pg. 428  The first error, and the worst, lay at her door.  It was foolish, it was wrong, to take so active a part in bringing any two people together.  It was adventuring too far, assuming too much, making light of what ought to be serious__a trick of what ought to be simple.  She was quite concerned and ashamed, and resolved to do such things no more.

"Here have I," said she, "actually talked poor Harriet into being very much attached to this man.  She might never have thought of him but for me; and certainly never would have thought of him with hope, if I had not assured her of his attachment, for she is a modest and humble as I used to think him.  Oh, that I had been satisfied with persuading her not to accept young Martin.  There I was quite right; that was well done of me; but there I should have stopped, and left the rest to time and chance.  I was introducing her into good company, and giving her the opportunity of pleasing someone worth having; I ought not to have attempted more.  But now, poor girl! her peace is cut up for some time.  I have been but half a friend to her! and if she were not to feel this disappointment so very much, I am sure I have not an idea of anybody else who would be at all desirable for her.  William Cox__oh, no, I could not endure William Cox__a pert young lawyer.  

She stopped to blush and laugh at her own relapse, and then resumed a more serious, more dispiriting cogitation upon what had been, and might be, and must be.  The distressing explanation she had to make to Harriet, and all that poor Harriet would be suffering, with the awkwardness of future meetings, the difficulties of continuing or discontinuing the acquaintance, of subduing feelings, concealing resentment, and avoiding eclat, were enough to occupy her in most unmirthful  reflections some time longer, and she went to bed at last with nothing settled, but the conviction of her having blundered most dreadfully.

Emma realizes she was wrong, even though she truly believes she did it with all good intentions.  She thought she was being a good friend to Harriet, wanting to introduce her to Mr. Elton, who she felt was more suitable for Harriet.  She realizes she was wrong and she also takes time to reflect back to when Mr. Knightley tried to warn her of Mr. Elton.

Emma, is a work in progress!

[PatH]

"Work in progress"--that's a good term for Emma.  She's got a way to go, though.  She vows to stop matchmaking for Harriet, then immediately finds herself considering other possibilities.  She is very repentant for the pain she's caused Harriet by giving her unreasonable expectations, but she doesn't feel she was wrong to get Harriet to refuse Martin.

Did you notice how indignant Emma was at the very idea that Mr. Elton should be so presumptuous as to think he could marry Emma, who is so much above him?  That sounds snooty, but it's also realistic.  Her fortune is thirty thousand pounds.  That's a huge amount of money--she is much richer than Austen's other female characters except one (Mr. Darcy's younger sister, who also has thirty thousand pounds).   And although Hartfield doesn't have the large amount of land that Mr. Knightly has, it's the second most important estate in the area, and her family has been established there for some generations.  When a woman married, her status tended to move up or down to be like her husband's, and Mr. Elton, as a poor clergyman without an impressive family, doesn't have much status.  And although he's handsome, he doesn't have many personal qualities to make him worth the sacrifice--he's stolid and affected.

[bellamarie]

I think we all have an epiphany of something we know we have done wrong, and vow to not do again, and turn right back around and think of doing it again, or do it again.  It is our human nature, and yes, possibly a flaw in our character.  

We all have flaws, but we also have wonderful qualities to offset them.  Emma is a result of her upbringing, era, status and expectations.  Mr. Knightley, is truly the only one, trying to show her she can do, and be better than she is.  

Although, there is a part of her and in each of yourselves, where if you change too much, you become someone else, and not necessarily any longer that which attracted others to us in the first place.  It's be careful what you wish for.

I sense what attracts Mr. Knightely, to Emma, is indeed the spunkiness, the difference in her manners, her meddling, her behavior, unlike the other ladies.   Their sparring is almost like a courtship.  He would not have her any other way, although he sure does feel the need to point out her flaws.

I think this is fitting especially for Emma.

[PatH]

 

[JoanK]

I love this: "There is no one alive who is youer than you!" THAT'S certainly true of Emma.

[JoanK]

BARB: thanks for the books. I'm tempted to download "the female Quixote"!

the travel book starts out by saying that while travel books are rarely printed in Spain, In England, they are very popular. I can imagine Emma, bored in her village, reading about traveling.

Thinking about Austen, I'm imagining that she wished to do more traveling than she was able to do. there are hints of this longing in her books. At the same time, maybe she was a little afraid of it. There are several incidents in her books where women venture abroad, and have to be "rescued" (we'll come to Emma's later).

Have/do any of you live in a small town? If so, do you love it or hate it?With TV and the computer, we're never as constrained as Emma: we always have a window on the world. And it's possible to be more isolated in a big city where no one knows or cares about you. What do you think?

[Jonathan]

Isn't she clever. With one or two exceptions Emma might have said those things. And even those, as we get to know her better....

'Oh, that I had been satisfied with persuading her not to accept young Martin.  There I was quite right; that was well done of me; but there I should have stopped, and left the rest to time and chance.'

Wonderful quotes, Bellamarie. What an amazing look into the heart and soul of this young English girl. We're really exploring psychological and emotional depths in this novel, not to mention the curious English social scene.

'There I was wrong'. 'Here I was right.' Like Mr. Knightley, I could enjoy her company. If I could be lucky enough to catch her eye. Mr. Martin has seen her at least fifty times on the street, without her even noticing him. And yet his fate was in her hands.

[JoanK]

Remember, we're moving on tomorrow. The new questions are up.

[bellamarie]

JoanK., I grew up in a small, rural town.  I loved living there.  I had a sense of security there, but this small town country girl, spread her wings and had to move to a bigger city life when I married.  I go back to my hometown, and I think of how small it seems to me even now, even though it has developed and has tons more stores and housing.  I feel like I have outgrown the town and the people.  They all seem like they have not changed, and I feel like I could never fit in again.

I can't imagine Emma leaving Hartfield for long, she has never really traveled. 

[pedln]

LOve the reading quotes and the ones from Dr. Suess.  Youer than you -- wonderful!

So why does't Emma like Jane Fairfax?  Mr. Knightley probably has that pegged correctly -- Jane has nurtured her accomplishments, can show what she has learned.  But also, Jane was kind of foisted on Emma -- "Oh, they'll be good friends, they're the same age."  JUst the assuption that you'll be buddy buddy with someone is enough to turn you off.  And then, of course, she's part of the unlovely (to Emma) Bates family.  And much fuss is made of Jane Fairfax, who of course when she comes is always the new girl.

What puzzles me, and did I miss something, or is it just Emma's imagination, that there was/is something between Jane and the married-to-her-good-friend Mr. Dixon.  Does Emma even know these people?

I have another question, don't understand Emma's 30,000 pounds.  Is this something that is supposed to last the rest of her life? Does it decrease year after year or  is it principle, of which only its growth or earnings can be spent?

[PatH]

I agree; Emma dislikes Jane because she is as beautiful and intelligent as Emma, and has made better use of her talents--reading, playing the piano really well, etc., so she's an unspoken reproach to Emma for her laziness.  Also, Jane is a rather quiet, reserved sort of woman, probably not really Emma's type.  So, jealousy, reaction against other people's expectations, and personalities that don't mesh particularly well.

Emma hasn't met Mr. Dixon or his wife, Jane's friend.  She's imagining Dixon's attraction to Jane, mostly because Jane didn't go to Ireland with the Campbells to visit the newlyweds, maybe reinforced by something or other the talkative Miss Bates has said.

The 30,000 pounds would be Emma's marriage settlement.  How these would be used varied.  Married women couldn't own property, so if no other arrangement had been made, the money would become the husband's, and the expectation would be that he would use it for the joint good of the family.  The prudent course would be to live off the income the money produced, not touching the principal.  It was possible, and prudent, to tie up a woman's money so the husband couldn't touch it.  The woman had a "life interest" in it, and could enjoy the income, but the principal would go to her heirs.

I don't remember if you read the two Wilkie Collins books with us.  In The Woman in White, the villain marries the heroine for her money, and spends it all.  In The Moonstone, someone wants to marry the heroine for her money, but doesn't because it's tied up, and he needs more than just the income to get out of his debts.

[JoanK]

Austen always tells you exactly how much money some of her characters have, and scholars have fun trying to see what the modern equivalent would be. 30,000 pounds was a fortune. but there's no true modern equivalent: things were relatively much more expensive and labor relatively much cheaper. This is why we see relatively "poor"people with servants.

[Ella Gibbons]

I must keep on my toes to remember these new characters in the novel. I'll remember two very beautiful, refined, elegant young women, around Emma's age.  Jane Fairfax, who cannot match Emma in fortune, of course, and Miss Hawkins, who can, although married to Mr. Elton.  Is there an hint of jealousy on Emma's part?

Harriett is still absolutely bonkers over Mr. Martin, if only she did not listen to Emma she could very well be planning a wedding; but, no, Emma still cannot reconcile the idea of marriage to one whom is not of her station in life, even though he is a well meaning and worthy person.  Poor Mr. Martin, his, "ambiiton, as well as love, had probably been mortified" when he was rejected by Harriet.

Emma is, for the first time or have I forgotten, examining her own conscience.  She feels her deficiency in contributing to the "scanty comforts" of others in the community and, consequently, she did call on Miss and Mrs. Bates even though the "second and third rate of Highbury, were calling on them for ever.

I shall read on and pay attention to the new questions in the heading.

[bellamarie]

This is not the first time Emma  has examined her conscience.  If you recall, after the carriage ride with Mr. Elton, she labors over everything and even has remorse.

pedln,

What puzzles me, and did I miss something, or is it just Emma's imagination, that there was/is something between Jane and the married-to-her-good-friend Mr. Dixon.

Good catch, no, you did not miss something.  It seems, Jane may have had something to do with Mr. Dixon, before he married Miss Campbell.  Is it all Emma's imagination?  Hmmm.....we shall see.

pg. 441  "Wrapped up in a cloak of politeness, she seemed determined to hazard nothing.  She was disgustingly, was suspiciously reserved.  If anything could be more, where all was most, she was more reserved on the subject of Weymouth, and the Dixons than anything.  She seemed bent on giving no real insight into Mr. Dixon's character, or her own value for his company, or opinion of the suitableness of the match.  It was all general approbation and smoothness; nothing delineated or distinguished.  It did her no service, however.  Her caution was thrown away, Emma saw its artifice, and returned to her first surmise.  There probably was something more to conceal than her own preference; Mr. Dixon, perhaps, had been very near changing one friend for the other, or been fixed only to Miss Campbell, for the sake of the future twelve thousand pounds.  

The like reserve prevailed on other topics.  She and Mr. Frank Churchill had been at Weymouth at the same time.  It was known that they were a little acquainted, but not a syllable of real information could Emma procure as to what he truly was,  "Was he handsome?"  "She believed he was reckoned a very fine man."  "Was he agreeable?"  "He was generally thought so,"  "Did he appear a sensible young man; a young man of information?"  "At a watering-place, or in a common London acquaintance, it was difficult to decide on such points.  Manner were all that could be safely judged, of, under a much longer knowledge than they had of Mr. Churchill.  She believed everybody found his manners pleasing."  Emma could not forgive her.

Why is Jane Fairfax so reserved? 

When Emma first met Jane, she decided:

pg. 440  "In short, she sat, during the first visit, looking at Jane Fairfax with twofold complacency__the sense of pleasure and the sense of rendering justice, and was determining that she would dislike her no longer.  When she took in her history, indeed, her situation, as well as her beauty; when she considered what all this elegance was destined to, what she was going to sink from, how she was going to live, it seemed impossible to feel anything but compassion and respect; especially, if to every well-known particular, entitling her to interest, were added the highly probable circumstance of an attachment to Mr. Dixon, which she has so naturally started to herself.  In that case, nothing could be more pitiable or more honourable than the sacrifices she had resolved on.  Emma was very willing now to acquit her of having seduced Mr. Dixon's affections from his wife, or anything mischievous which her imagination had suggested at first.  If it were love, it might be simple, single, unsuccessful love on her side.  She alone might have been unconsciously sucking in the sad poison, while a sharer of his conversation with her friend; and from the best, the purest of motives, might now be denying herself this visit to Ireland, and resolving to divide herself effectually from him and his connections by soon beginning her career of laborious duty.

Upon the whole, Emma left her with such softened, charitable feelings

These feeling did not last, due to Mr. Knightley singing Jane's praises.  He really does like to wind Emma up.  He knows just the right ways to push her buttons, and he thoroughly enjoys doing so.

While you can think Emma is unjustified in her feelings of jealousy, unkind, and suspicious of Jane Fairfax, I have my own suspicions of her.  She is too good to be true.  I always go on my instincts, as I see Emma does as well, and I am betting there is a whole lot more than meets the eye, with Miss Jane Fairfax.  

I think it is only a matter of time Harriet, and Mr. Martin, will find their way back to each other.  I sense Emma will come to see how much they truly love each other.  Emma said she must have love, when and if, she should marry, so I see her coming around.

My book is not sectioned off into parts I, II etc.  I am now on chapter 23, where Frank Churchill has just arrived.  Emma seems to like him instantly.  I am sure Mr. Knightley will not be liking this!
 

[pedln]

Thank you, PatH, for your explanation about the 30,000 pounds.  No, I did not reae the Wilkie Collins books you mention.  It sounds like he was offering some lessons or advice for his readers.

Emma, now, if she does not marry, then she CAN own Hartfield after her father passes on?  When were married women finally allowed to own property in the UK?

[PatH]

Emma, now, if she does not marry, then she CAN own Hartfield after her father passes on?  When were married women finally allowed to own property in the UK?

Since there seems to be no male heir anywhere, she and Isabella would presumably inherit Hartfield.  However, while she was still young, Emma would not have been able to live there alone as mistress; it wasn't respectable for a young unmarried woman to live alone like that.

The Married Women's Property Act of 1884 gave women pretty much complete rights.  An earlier version, 1870, gave married women partial rights; anything they earned was theirs, plus some details I'm too lazy to look up.

The basis for these restrictions is particularly annoying.  Once she was married, a woman was legally no longer a person, just part of her husband.  She couldn't do anything legally without his permission.  Grrr.

[JoanK]

Mr. Knightly "knows just the right ways to push her [Emma's] buttons, and he thoroughly enjoys doing so."

Do you think he knows how annoying he's being, or is he oblivious? I envision him, when Emma and Jane were children, telling Emma that if she would  just practice as much on the piano as Jane does, she might be able to play as well, and then not understanding why Emma doesn't spend more time with Jane.

Emma is trying hard to like Jane, since Jane has such a dismal future. Although Mrs. Weston gives us an example of a governess who was happy to be with her charge, and, when her charge was grown, made a good marriage, this was rare. Governesses in general were isolated, not members of the family, but too far above the servants to be one of them. They had few friends, few chances to marry, not enough income to save for old age, and just had to hope for some pittance to live on when their charges were grown and they were too old to work.

Of course, Emma  has to feel sorry for Jane. But Jane soon reminds Emma that she really can't stand her. Emma's hopes of finding out about the elusive Frank Churchill, gone. How aggravating!   

[Jonathan]

'Grrr. Thanks for that apt expression, Pat. You make good use of it in the context of wives and property rights, but it comes in real handy as a reaction to many things going on in the story. Harriet, with nothing to lose in a marriage, should be the envy of women such as Emma and Mrs Elton. Harriet is the ray of hope, representing true love in the midst of calculating women.

And perhaps Jane as well. I got the impression, the first, that she was guilty of something and was preparing for a lifetime of penance in some nunnery. Other impressions will likely follow.

How could the proud, self-assured, self-esteeming Emma ever be jealous of her? Nobody in Highbury can touch her. Who would dare to call her on anything. But she does need reining in. And Mr. Knightley does try. Tries to give her the benefit of his experinece, reminding her that he was already sixteen when she was born. Their frank discussions seem somehow the only rational thing in the plot. And the way they play with the other characters makes them look like pawns or marrionettes. Discussing the character and fate of the others. I can't get over this unique narrative style.

It's only Harriet, as far as I can see. that assures a happy ending. The others left to themselves are only making a mess of things.

[PatH]

Every time I reread an Austen novel I see something new in it.

This is backtracking, but I can’t move on without commenting on chapter 12.  I hadn’t noticed before what a funny scene it is.

This is the evening of the day that John and Isabella Knightley arrive for their visit at Hartfield, and John’s brother, Mr. Knightley, has been invited.  Dinner is over, and they are sitting and talking, the Knightley brothers with each other about farm matters and legal things, and Isabella and her father together about various things.

Emma is on the sidelines, waiting for explosions.

There are several to be expected: Mr. Woodhouse resents the Knightleys going to the seaside in the fall instead of visiting him.  He and Isabella are both health fussers; he will fuss at her about the lack of benefits of sea air, and they each are devoted to their family doctor, and will pit their opinions against each other.  John Knightley doesn’t like all this fussing, and if he overhears too much of it, will get mad; if he thinks any of it reflects on him, he will really explode.

Emma dances around the conversations, deftly changing the subject whenever things get tricky, aided by the elder Mr. Knightley some of the time.  It gets harder and harder, and finally the explosion comes.  John goes into a tirade, everyone else soothes and distracts like mad, and finally things end amicably.

It’s all done with a nice sense of rhythm and  comic timing.

[bellamarie]

JoanK.,

Do you think he knows how annoying he's being, or is he oblivious?

Oh, I think Mr. Knightley, indeed knows what he is doing.  He smirks and smiles, and even toys with her in front of her father.

pg.  441-442

Emma could not forgive her, but neither provocation nor resentment were discerned by Mr. Knightley, who had been of the party, and had seen only proper attention and pleasing behaviour on each side, he was expressing the next morning, being at Hartfield again on business with Mr. Woodhouse, his approbation of the whole, not so openly as he might have done had her father been out of the room, but speaking plain enough to be very intelligible to Emma.  He had been used to think her unjust to Jane, and now great pleasure in marking an improvement.

"A very pleasant evening,"  he began, as soon as Mr. Woodhouse had been talked into what was necessary, told that he understood, and papers swept away__"particularly pleasant.  You and Miss Fairfax gave us some very good music.  I do not know a more luxurious state, sir, than sitting at one's ease to be entertained a whole evening by two such young women, sometimes with music and sometimes with conversation.  I am sure Miss Fairfax must have found the evening pleasant, Emma.  You left nothing undone.  I was glad you made her play so much, for having no instrument at her grandmother's, it must have been a real indulgence."  "I am happy you approve,"  Emma smiling; "but I hope I am not often deficient in what is due to guests at Hartfield."  "No, my dear,"  said her father, instantly; "that I am sure you are not.  There is nobody half so attentive and civil as you are.  If anything you are too attentive.  "No," said Mr. Knightley, nearly at the same time; "you are not often deficient; not often deficient, either in manner or comprehension.  I think you understand me, therefore."  An arch look expressed__"I understand you well enough; but she said only, "Miss Fairfax is reserved."

"My dear Emma." said he, moving from his chair into one close by her, you are not going to tell me, I hope, that you had not a pleasant evening?"

"She must have found the evening agreeable, Mr. Knightley, because she had Emma."  "True, sir, and Emma, because she had Miss Fairfax."



Mr. Knightley is constantly reigning her in, as Jonathan points out:

Jonathan,  

But she does need reining in. And Mr. Knightley does try. Tries to give her the benefit of his experinece, reminding her that he was already sixteen when she was born. Their frank discussions seem somehow the only rational thing in the plot. And the way they play with the other characters makes them look like pawns or marrionettes. Discussing the character and fate of the others. I can't get over this unique narrative style.

Indeed the two of them seem as the puppet masters, or masters of a chess game, with the rest of the characters.  Mr. Knightley, sure seems to be trying to pull all of Emma's strings, and she is not so easy to manipulate.  The King in this chess game, continues to try to corner his Queen, and she doesn't seem to be so easily captured!

 

[JoanK]

JONATHAN, PAT, BELLAMARIE: YES, we are really getting "into" Austen.. I have never read Emma in this slow, detailed way before, and what fun it is to see what a master Austen is at revealing character and plot through the details of everyday conversation and thought.

Now we have another new character to hash over, Frank Churchill.

[marcie]

Pat, I'm glad you pointed out that very funny scene. There does seem to be lots of humor in the book and so far a lot of it involves characters that Emma respects in some sense, such as her father, sister and brother-in-law. I remember humorous scenes in her other books, for example PRIDE AND PREJUDICE, and much of the humor came from characters Elizabeth, the protagonist, didn't care for, such as the clergyman, Mr. Collins, and Darcy's rich aunt.

I think that Mr. Knightley does tease Emma at times but I think that most of the time, his "corrections" of her and his cautions about her behavior are meant seriously and he is not trying to push her buttons. My take on him is that he is so concerned, "for her own good," that Emma live up to her potential and all that he sees in her that is isn't aware how harsh he might seem toward her.

[bellamarie]

I think Mr. Knightley is concerned for Emma, because he loves her and has not really come to realize it.  They spar like two people courting.  They send each other smirks, smiles, and arched eyebrows, etc., like secret lovers, without even realizing it.  He has taken liberty to critique her every move, and word.  She expects his disapproval at every turn, yet I think she is hoping for his approval.  I feel he wants her to be, all he expects in a wife.

[Halcyon]

Bellamarie  You always make such a compelling argument for the love between Mr. Knightly and Emma.  I have a hard time understanding Mr. Knightly and his motives.  He has watched Emma grow up from a babe.  Does he see himself as an older brother or a father figure knowing Mr. Woodhouse would never criticize his perfect Emma?  Why does he take this upon himself?  When Emma was ten he was 26.  Why wasn't he looking for a wife then.  He couldn't have fallen in love with a 10 year old.  I don't find the age difference unusual if he had not been a family friend and watched her grow up.  Oh, well we'll find out.  I loved your Seuss quotes.

As far as that little worm Mr Elton.....a vicar turned gigolo in my opinion.

[Jonathan]

"They spar like two people courting....without even realizing it." Good comment, Bellamarie. How long do you think they have been doing that? When do you think Emma started showing so much independence of mind? Did he teach her that? What struck me is that unlike others in the book, with these two it matters for each what the other is thinking. A meeting of minds.

There is so much humor in the book. And it's enjoyable to hear where you all find it. Please bring it to the table. Here's something I chuckled over, but first I would like to say that I'm very disappointed that we never get to read the significant letters that matter so much to the plot. We hear a lot about them, but always from someone's point of view.

Now here, in Ch 1, of Bk 2, we hear about the letter from Jane Fairfax to her aunt and grandmother, the Bates ladies. We're going to hear it read but Emma has heard enough just from the telling and finds she has not the time and leaves. (She calls on the Bates ladies only reluctantly as a social obligation. Too often she finds herself meeting second and third raters visiting there.) And now the letter:

Miss Bates:'...but, first of all, I must, in justice to Jane, apologise for her writing so short a letter - only two pages you see - hardly two - and in general she fills the whole paper and crosses half. My mother often wonders that I can make it out so well. She often says, when the letter is first opened, "Well, Hetty, now I think you will be put to it to make out all the chequer-work" - don't you, mother - I am sure she would pore over it till she had made out every word of it, if she had nobody to do it for her.'

We're told that Jane is extemely intelligent. Presumably each crossed-out word is a change of mind. Wouldn't a letter like that be a puzzler? haha. Austen probably didn't feel up to composing it.

[PatH]

...in general she fills the whole paper and crosses half.

Jane is not crossing things out here.  Postage was very expensive then, and charged by the sheet, so to save money, after you had filled up both sides of the page, you would turn it at right angles and write more, so the lines crossed each other at right angles.  It's hard to read, which is why Mrs. Bates often says "I think you will be put to it to make out all the chequer-work".  If you scroll down a bit on this site you will see an example of a crossed letter written by Jane Austen:

https://janeaustensworld.wordpress.com/2010/01/01/a-womans-wit-jane-austens-letters/

I like the way the chapter ends:
"She regained the street--happy in this, that though much had been forced on her against her will, though she had in fact heard the whole substance of Jane Fairfax's letter, she had been able to escape the letter itself."

[bellamarie]

Jonathan and PatH.,  Yes, the letter.....I loved how Emma managed to escape having to go through the reading of the letter.  I seriously thought I could take NO more of Mrs. Bates rattling on.  I was ready to yell,  STOP!    

Halcyon,  I am not so sure why Mr. Knightley has appointed himself Emma's judge and jury, on her every word and action. It may have started out as a big brother intent, and as she grew into a woman, the feelings could have shifted.

You ask, when could he have fallen in love with her, I suspect it has been since she has become a woman, seeing other men noticing her.  

Not to cause any controversy, because I in no way see Mr. Knightley, like Lewis Carroll, but, it has been suggested, Carroll fell for Alice Liddell at a very young age.  He did write her a letter, that upset Alice's mother, and was suspected of either professing his love for her, or intimating marriage.  But, then again.....a letter that never really was shared with the readers, to know exactly what was in it.  

In Gone With the Wind, Rhett Butler was 17 yrs. older than Scarlett O'Hara. At the end of the story Scarlett is 28 yrs. old and Rhett is 45 yrs. old.  He knew her since she was very young as well. "During the time span of the novel, from 1861 to 1873, Scarlett ages from sixteen to twenty-eight years. The literary technique applied in telling the story is Bildungsroman,[32] which is a type of novel concerned with the moral and psychological growth of the protagonist from youth to adulthood (coming-of-age story)"
wikipedia.org/wiki/Gone_with_the_Wind

Mr. Darcy in Pride and Prejudice is about 8 yrs. older than Elizabeth.

I don't think it was uncommon for men to fall in love with much younger women back then.  It was a perfect way to conform them into the wife they wanted.  Although.....Emma, like Scarlett and Elizabeth,  is refusing to be conformed.  She is who she is, and I don't see her changing for anyone.  

[BarbStAubrey]

I'm trying but this story is making me very uncomfortable as I see Mr. Knightly acting with full blown male entitlement, all under the guise of titillating the reader to believe women need to be controlled and formed into a male approved image in order to be an acceptable love match - then we wonder why battered women do not see it coming - sorry folks to be a downer but this story is lethal covered with 'nice' - even if it is to be read as history with all the lovely day to day details of home and countryside the story still plants dangerous role modeling. 

[JoanK]

BARB: yes, but it was the modeling of the day. I have trouble with Mr. Knightly too. A different relationship is portrayed in "Pride and Prejudice.

Miss Bates lost Jane's letter under her "huswife". A huswife (housewife) was a clothe bag for holding sewing implements.

[marcie]

Barbara,"male entitlement" certainly was a serious issue in Austen's time and continues to be today. Austen frequently introduces into her stories the custom of "entailment" of property to the male line of a family, bypassing daughters, and shows the real or potential effects on women in her books. She contrasts the freedom (that at least wealthy men have) to go to school, to have a profession, even just to move about with that of the women she portrays as having to stay close to home unless escorted by a man.

With all of the hardships on women that Austen shows, I don't think that she portrays proud men, acting with male entitlement, has having the "last say" in their relationships with women who have "sense" and some spunk. The strong male characters (for example, Darcy in Pride and Prejudice), show pride and even disdain early on but usually acknowledge and repent of their arrogance by the end of the book (we'll have to see what happens in this story). The weaker men (for example, Mr. Collins, in Pride and Prejudice) are usually kept skillfully in check by their wives.

I agree with you, Barbara, that novels could be written about the evils of "male entitlement" perpetrated by more flawed characters than those in Austen's books, but I don't think that she necessarily sugar coats the men and the women that she has chosen to portray and I don't think that the women of "sense" that she characterizes believe that they should be controlled by men.