Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online

[Persian]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

Three Cups of Tea by Greg Mortenson & David Oliver Relin "The first time that you share tea with a Balti, you are a stranger" a villager tells our author.  "The second time, you are an honored guest.  The third time you become family." ~ Three  Cups of Tea ______________ Three Cups of Tea is an inspirational story of one man's efforts to address poverty, educate girls, and overcome cultural divides.  This book won the 2007 Kiriyama Prize for nonfiction revealing the enormous obstacles inherent in becoming such "family." ~ Bookmarks Magazine

Three Cups of Tea -- Homepage. Ignorance -- the Real Enemy. Synopsis and Biography. Readers' Guide by the Author. K2 Mountain.

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Discussion Schedule May 1 - 7         Chapters 1 - 6 May 8 - 14       Chapters 7 - 12 May 15 - 21      Chapters 13 - 18 May 22 - 31      Chapters 19 - End

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1.  What made Mortenson particularly ripe for such a transformation?  Has anything similar happened in your own life? 2.  Is Mortenson someone that you would like to know, work with or have as a neighbor or friend? 3.  At the heart of the book is a powerful but simple poliical message: we each as individuals have the power to change the world, one cup of tea at a time,  etc.

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Discussion Leaders: Andy(ALF43), JoanK & Pedln

BABI - Absolutely!  Many years ago, when I was teaching in China, some of my colleagues and students accompanied me on a two-day trip to the Northwestern area of the country, where we met many Uigurs and some Tajiks at a lifestock fair.  The students were excited, since they were from the central Szechuan region and had never traveled too far away from their own areas.  On our travels, we met people who were quite different than the students (and several of the colleagues who accompanied us).  The students were intrigued by the differences - pointed, grinned, laughed out loud at the differences in clothing, speech, and interactive manners.  I used that experience as a teaching tool when we were back in our classroom, stressing that "differences are not bad, but often interesting, and a great way to learn about world regions - right in your own "backyard."

Mahlia

[pedln]

Babi, good point about Charlie Wilson's efforts to have schools built.  I saw the movie, but had forgotten much of it.  I'm glad you brought it up.

During his first stay in Korphe, GM asks to visit the local school, and a poor excuse for a school it is.  Eighty some students meeting in the outdoors.  A teacher costs a dollar a day, which the village cannot afford, so they share a teacher with a neighboring village, who comes three times a week.  And for supplies, they use sticks and dirt, or, more rarely, slates.

The governmental attitude towards education, especially in the poorer areas, has apparently changed little.  Today there is an article in the NY Times about the growth of  Islamic schools (madrasas) in Pakistan, more militant than the public schools, but often the only recourse for poorer families.

Pakistan’s Islamic Schools Fill Void, but Fuel Militancy

Here are some quotes from the article.

Literacy in Pakistan has grown from barely 20 percent at independence 61 years ago, and the government recently improved the curriculum and reduced its emphasis on Islam.

But even today, only about half of Pakistanis can read and write, far below the proportion in countries with similar per-capita income, like Vietnam. One in three school-age Pakistani children does not attend school, and of those who do, a third drop out by fifth grade, according to Unesco. Girls’ enrollment is among the lowest in the world, lagging behind Ethiopia and Yemen.

“This is a state that never took education seriously,” said Stephen P. Cohen, a Pakistan expert at the Brookings Institution. “I’m very pessimistic about whether the educational system can or will be reformed.”

There is too much in the article to copy and quote here. Reading it emphasizes to me the tremendous and never-ending job that Mortenson has taken on.

[ALF43]

Persian, what a great teaching tool that you used.  I think, particularly kids, who are exposed to a different culture accept it more readily than adults, don't you?
Fellowship amongst children is a given.

Thanks Pedln for the links and Babi reminding us of Charlie Wilson's War.  I had a hard time wrapping my thoughts around the word MUSLIM meaning literally to SUBMIT! 
Is it correct to assume that the submission is to their God, Allah?

[Persian]

ALF - The following brief explanation might help you as you reflect on the words "God" (English) and "Allah" (Arabic).  I had this piece in the notes from one of my lectures a couple of years ago, but it is pretty much a mainstay.  Keep in mind also that it is NOT unusual for Muslims to use the phrase "the God of Abraham" when speaking in English.

Part of the confusion between the words "Allah" and "God" being the same deity, is the usage of Arabic. Allah is the Arabic word for God and does not symbolize a different god. Therefore, it is logical that when the Christians in Palestine (who speak Arabic) call on God, they say the name "Allah".  Remember also that there are substantial Arabic speaking Christians, especially in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, just as there are non-Arab Christians in Persia (Iran), Turkey and Ethiopia (to name only a few global regions).

Another confusion in this reference is between the words "Allah" and "God" by Muslim leaders who continue to use the name "Allah" when they are speaking in English. This certainly can cause an illusion that "Allah" is an entirely different deity. Yet is is the speakers' personal choice, since Muslims are encouraged in the Quran (Chapter 17, verse 110) "Call Him GOD, or call Him the Most Gracious; whichever name you use, to Him belongs the best names." In the end, we are informed in the Quran, that: [7:180] To GOD belongs the most beautiful names; call upon Him therewith, and disregard those who distort His names.

Hope this helps.
Mahlia

[Justin]

Christians know their deities by Greek names as well as Hebrew. Jesus, for example is Greek for the Hebrew Joshua. English versions of the Bible tended to use Hebrew names for others. In the case of Moses, the name is Egyptian meaning son,  I think. I take this from Thutmose as son of Thoth. That's a stretch for me because the last part of  a royal Egyptian name usually refers to a God as in Tutankamon.

References to the God of Abraham are made as Yahway. Since there are no vowels in Hebrew and since the name of God may not be spoken the letters YHWH are used. This naming game is complex.

[Justin]

Jehoshaphat is another reference to God. John also refers to God as the Logos.

[ALF43]

Thank you both, Mahlia and justin.  It does help clarify the "names" for me.  I am scheduled to take a course on Islam in August so I'll be all set, won't I?

[Babi]

  Mahlia and Justin, this discussion is offering such a great opportunity
to clarify so many points of misunderstanding. I will note that even beyond
'Joshua', there is "Yeshua", the Aramaic form which may very well be what
his family actually called the boy we know as Jesus.
  I can remember a lecture on the 'logos' by a Monsignor while I was in
college.  It was a real eye-opener for me.
  Another thing which has changed very little in so many of these poorer
countries, PEDLN, is the way in which funds coming in, for whatever purpose,
seem to dwindle every time they pass through an official set of hands. So
frustrating for those trying to help the people at the bottom of the heap.

[Persian]

JUSTIN - when I read your comment about the origin of the name "Moses," I recalled talking with one of the senior Egyptian representatives many years ago when he was helping to set up the magnificent King Tut exhibit in Washington DC.  As we talked, the fellow began to tell me of the history of the Royal Egyptian Kingdom and mentioned the name Moses  ("Taken from the Water"), which is Musa in Arabic and Mose in Hebrew.  It was a tremendously intriguing conversation as I've always been interested in the ancient history of the region.  Indeed the origin of the various names, meaning, spelling in multiple languages and pronunciation can be challenging.

ALF - I hope you enjoy your class on Islam.  Do you know the focus of the class (i.e., ancient/current history, comparison with the two other Abrahamic religions, differences between and among global Islamic societies, etc.)?  I've always enjoyed delving into the numerous questions RE "differences" from students about the cultures from which the various religions derive and the reasons for the differences.  It is especially intriguing when one can refer to the Jewish, Christian and Islamic scriptures at the same time, thus getting a simultaneous understanding of the varied cultural histories.

I remember an invitation I received a couple of years ago to share the podium at a program, where I was one of two speakers on "Differences in Religions."  The co-speaker was a fundamentalist Christian who spoke only negatively about Islam.  When it was my turn, I folded my notes into my bag and instead responded to each of his negative comments.  It was not an attempt to change one's thinking, but to help the audience understand that indeed there are differences - just as with any topic - but that a clearer understanding of Islam would go a long way to help folks appreciate Muslims world-wide without condemning them from ignorance.

BABI You've made an excellent point about the distribution of funds.  Indeed there is "baksheesh" (a bribe) expected (and usually paid) at the highest levels of government as well as among the "least of us."  It is often a well understood fact that unless the bribes are paid (and continually) whatever services are expected will NOT be forthcoming.  My own personal experience in travels abroad, especially among rural villagers whom I am blessed to help, is that contributions even placed in the hands of the most needy are often "demanded" for various reasons by Elders.  And if the initial recipients do not respond promptly, their is an ugly punishment.

Mahlia

[winsummm]

pedin thankyou for the beautiful photo. the country is incredibly beautiful . is that a rock wall they are lined up against or does the line define the rocks???

the book has photos but not in color or very big.  when I saw some of mortenson I was reminded  of my son who is also six four and has a great smile.  I think if a movie is made Dennis Quaid would be good for the part. saw him last night on tv.

claire

[JudeS]

As promised I am joining the discussion after finishing "Dreams of my Father" for my F2F book group this Friday.

I have caught up on your posts and have almost completed the reading assignment for this week in Three Cups of Tea.

A few years back  I wrote six articles for the magazine "The California Therapist" They were titled "Our Clients and their Religion".  It was an attempt to help therapists know some of the basic facts of clients , who in CA especially, cover a wide range of religions. I also gave examples of how knowing about a religion can help the therapist respect and understand their clients needs and decisions.  The articles were on Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity (mainly the many variations of the Protestant Faith) Catholicism and Islam.

Within each of these faiths there are many, many variations depending on  factors such as country of origin of the family, the importance their religous faith plays in their decision making process, the amount of education (secular or religous) and on and on.

Thus I can't draw any conclusions about Islam from the book we are reading . Islam in this part of Pakistan and Afghanistan has its own face but that changes in other parts of the world. Just as other religions have their own interpretation of their precepts and of their holy books which changes and fluctuates from place to place. I am afraid of making generalizations about anything based on one book.

 

[ALF43]

Justin, I agree that any definitive conclusion should not be reached,  due to the fact that it mattered not to Mortenson as he joined in worship and felt "for the first moment during all his days in Pakistan, no one was looking at him as an outsider." 

[winsummm]

mortenson had to learn to wash his feet and how exactly to pray to satisfy himself and to help pave the way for his projects. He was sincere, had grown up in africa, understood and respected the differences amongst people which are  true in terms of business practices as well as religion. it's hard not to jump just a little ahead?

claire

re: the children in china POINTING and laughing.  Here, that would be insulting to peolpe. We wouldn't like it.

[JoanK]

JUSTIN: another rendition of the Hebrew name of God YHVH is Jahovah. (The Y can be translated as either Y or J andthe vav can be either V or W). In the Hebrew Bible, it is written YHVH,  but when the bible is read, it is not pronounced, but the word Adonai (my Lord) is said instead. Or in some places, the word Elohiem is used: the Hebrew word for a god, including the gods of other religions.

I have a photograph of one of the Dead Sea scrolls, in which you can clearly see that while the rest of the scroll is in Hebrew letters, the name of god is in a different lettering system. Even if you don't read Hebrew, you can clearly pick out wherever the name of God is mentioned, it looks so different.

[PatH]

Mahlia, what would you recommend as a good starter book for someone who knows very little about the Quran and Islam?  I had thought of Michael Sells' "Approaching the Quran", which made a splash a few years ago whan a university assigned it as reading to incoming freshmen.  It looks readable and short enough not to be too formidable, though certainly just a baby step.  Do you know a better?

[Persian]

PAT - in response to your inquiry, I would highly recommend a good English translation of the Holy Qur'an.  There are several editions - check my post #74 in the earlier discussion (which is now locked, but accessible for reading) for the name of my copy, which includes extensive footnotes, explanations for non-Muslim readers about various aspects of the religion and how it is practiced globally.  Also note that Justin's translation is the Dawood edition (right, Justin?); also an excellent resource for non-Muslims.

If you prefer to read "about" Islam, rather than the Holy Qur'an itself (even in English translation), there are numerous (and I mean NUMEROUS) publications on which to draw.  It all depends on what you wish to better understand, your own religious background and teaching (and acceptance) of other religions, whether the Abrahamic ones or others, and how comfortable you are intellectually and personally in reading/learning about practices quite different than those with which you were raised and to which you adhere.

JUDY made an excellent point in her post above about "not drawing conclusions" regarding how Islam is taught, understood and practiced in many different cultures around the world.  Recognize that a major portion of those differences are cultural, NOT specifically religious, as well as the understanding and teaching skills of whomever is responsible for the teaching.  For example, an illiterate village elder, who has never read the Holy Qur'an for himself, but was raised to believe by listening to someone else recite verses, while incorporating tribal/clan culture into the verbal teaching is NOT going to convey the same information in the same manner as a well educated religious scholar who has been able to read, research, and develop intellectual reasoning for himself/herself, as well as discuss differences with others.

But then that is also true in other religions as cultures.  For example, when my husband and I relocated to the American South several years ago, neither one of us had lived in this region before.  It is surely different, often bewildering, sometimes culturally uncomfortable.  But it is a continued learning opportunity for both of us.

Hope the above helps.
Mahlia

[pedln]

Jude, welcome.  Glad you can now join us.  You and Mahlia have given us much to think about when you point out how difficult it is to draw conclusions about someone’s religion without knowing the many other aspects of their lives.

Babi, are you a mind reader?

Another thing which has changed very little in so many of these poorer
countries, PEDLN, is the way in which funds coming in, for whatever purpose,
seem to dwindle every time they pass through an official set of hands. So
frustrating for those trying to help the people at the bottom of the heap.

Much of the Lehrer Newshour tonight was devoted to the disagreements in Congress over funding to Pakistan – for the very thing that you have said.  Will the money be used as intended or will it go to line pockets?

A sad statistic from this evening – only 48% of Pakistan’s children attend school.  And we already know the purpose of some of those schools.

Babi, yes, I did see some of Rowell’s pictures.  The one taken in a crevisse after a fall was something to behold.  I assume they got out.

Shigar Valley     --  between Korphe and Skardu

[serenesheila]

WOW!  Ijust read all of your posts.  I find them informative, and fascinating.  The title of this book was off putting, for me. I have never felt much interest in this part of the world, either.  However, I could identify myself as a humanitarian.  Today, I read the introduction to this book, and am eager to read the book.  I also read the list of ways a person can help with educating the children.  I do not have a lot of money, but am ready to subscribe to the $1 a day, for pencils.

The thing that fascinates me most, is the discussion of religious differences.  I was raised in a fundamentalist, Christian church.  Even as a child, I could not understand why we sang "Jesus Loves Me", while at the same time racial prejudice was practiced by many American people, who called themselves Christians.  Since my youth, I have attended many different Christian denominations.  My faith has evolved over the course of my life.  Today, I believe there is only one God, but people call Him/Her by many different names.  I would love to get involved in a discussion on the religions of the world.

My driver's license expires next week.  So, I have been studying the driver's handbook.  My memory isn't very good at almost 75 y/o, so it requires reading and rereading the handbook, over and over.  Most of my time is taken up with this. Until I pass the test on the 14th, I will have to squeeze in reading this discussion, and reading as much as I am able.

Sheila

[Justin]

Sheila: It is nice to have you in this discussion with us. Someone with a fundamentalist background who recognizes the effects of cultural influence on the way religion is practiced can be a real asset.   

The Congress is rightly concerned about "squeeze." I am sure Mortenson will encounter the problem. Building schools is a wonderful alternative to violent conflict but I am sure it has a price that someone must be willing to pay.  I'll bet the US government has paid "squeeze" in Irag and has felt it's pinch in Pakistan.

[ALF43]

Sheila-  don't you worry, we will be riight here.  You take your time studying what it is you must relearn and come back when you require a good hot cup of tea.

Like many of you here, this is a learning experience for me.
It catches my breath as I learn the stirring history of Pakistan, amazed by the various ancient cultures and conquerors that have led this country.
 The migration of tribes and the multiple trade routes that have been traveled  have influenced this area for centuries and I find it quite over whelming.

I am so pleased that each of you can bring such detailed enlightenment  & interest to this discussion.

I wonder how the Taliban feels about these existing schools right now.  Does anyone have any idea if these schools and its children are "off limits" to the destruction and havoc the Taliban create?

[ALF43]

Mahlia- we have lived in many areas of the USA and reside now in the south.  I believe each area in our country has its own indigenous attitudes that are innate to that particular region.
Some times it is only a "mindset" other times it is prejudicial and biased.  Not just reliegious differences but attributes inherent in a community can be uncomfortable.

But then that is also true in other religions as cultures.  For example, when my husband and I relocated to the American South several years ago, neither one of us had lived in this region before.  It is surely different, often bewildering, sometimes culturally uncomfortable.  But it is a continued learning opportunity for both of us.

[Babi]

  It is apparent that Mortenson fully understands that Islam worships
the same God as the Christians. He has no problem at all with joining
in prayer with his Muslim allies, and praying in their fashion. I had to smile
when Abdul said he couldn't quite pass for Pakistani, but that he would believe he was Bosnian. Then, after a hard day's work, decided Mortenson
was finally dirty and sweaty enough to truly pass as a Pakistani. 

CLAIRE, I also have a 6'4" son, and naturally thought of him when
I read the decription of MOrtenson. It's only in the last few years,
tho', that he began to be as 'hefty' as our hero.

JUDE, I think you are wise not to want to make generalizations about
a religion based on one book. What I am hoping to find here are insights
that will shake loose some preconceptions and misconceptions. I think
the book is doing that for us.

PEDLN, it seems to me that all the pictures I've seen of the mountain
country of Pakistan are simply overwhelming. One feels so very small.

SHEILA, I did so identify with your perceptions of religion as a child.
I can recall, at perhaps 8 or 9, asking my mother's permission to attend
a very pretty stone church close by. I thought it would be so pleasant to
sit in such a lovely place for a sermon. Unfortunately, they had a guest
speaker, whose sermon consisted of a diatribe against Catholics. Even at
that young age, I knew this was all wrong, and left very saddened.

[JoanK]

Sheila: boy do I understand how you feel about the driving test! I find myself more and more forgetting things I just read. If I put down a book for more than a day, I can't remember who any of the characters are. Look forward to you joining us soon.

We will soon be learning about aide disappearing first-hand. I listened to some of the hearing last night that was featured on The News Hour. As one Congressman after another asked "why should we give Pakistan aid, when it all disappears into people's pockets, I found myself yelling "hire Mortensen". We'll see next week his struggles with this.

Meanwhile, he is back in the States. What do you think of him, now that we know more about how he lives? What about his fund-raising?

[PatH]

What made Mortenson ripe for such a transformation?  As several people pointed out, it was the death of his sister that was the immediate cause.  But there's more too.  Practically his whole life was a sort of prep course for this.  He spent his childhood watching his parents found hospitals and schools needed by a poor country.  He grew up surrounded by a mix of nationalities, learning other languages, and feeling comfortable with different religions, willing to participate.  (I haven't read ahead of this week's assignment, but I see from the conversation that this will become even more important.)  The things he had to do were things he had grown up with.

I think the death of his sister was important in more than one way.  His grief made him want to do something meaningful in her memory.  But also, he looks like a person who has a need to assume a caring, protective role.  With his sister gone, he had no outlet for this side of his personality, so it was free, ready to be used when the time came.

[Jonathan]

'With his sister gone, he had no outlet for this side of his (caring) personality, so it was free, ready to be used when the time came.'

What an interesting observation, Pat. The book does take the reader into the wildest places and strangest cultures, but, really, isn't it mainly about the many lives of Greg Mortenson? Not the least of his fine qualities is his ability to adapt: when in Rome, do as the Romans. As Babi has pointed out:

 'He has no problem at all with joining
in prayer with his Muslim allies, and praying in their fashion.'

And how about that fine proof of having learned his lesssons, when he leans forward in the helicopter, taps General Bhangoo on the shoulder, and says: General, sir, I think we're heading the wrong way.' Having once lost his way on the galcier, Mortenson is constantly aware of his bearings.

[fairanna]

I am glad to be back and have read the assigned chapters...Everything about this book and the people in it are special in a hundred ways.. funny you are talking about there is One God but different names  Twenty years ago or more I was reading the Bible again and starting in Genesis I was reading and all of a sudden I told my husband I think Genesis is saying that there is one GOD but many names for HIM ..if that is true then somehow we ought to recognize that and stop arguing ...When I was young and dating the young man at the moment invited me to his church and I nearly walked out because the minister was showing HATE in his sermon for Jews . I have been blessed to be raised in a family that respected all people and all faiths . I thought it was the way everyone was .. What a shock to grow up and find out how vehement some were about thier beliefs ..which I could never and still dont understand I love this book and feel strong about supporting this man's efforts to help children learn IN fact last year I wrote a poem telling parents to arm their children with knowledge not guns are some of the gadgets that are available for children and adults ...I have always loved crossword puzzlesand word puzzles but I really hate the games that teach children how to destroy Well back to the book we have a tornado watch until 4am and I am going to read ths book ..   GOD BLESS EVERYONE  regardless of what name you use..

[serenesheila]

WOW!  Again!  I just finished reading the first 6 chapters.  I love it!  DOR's writing quite poetic.  He really draws pictures with his words.  What I would really like to do, is just spend all of my time, reading this book.  I find myself wanting to read more about that part of the world.

I would veery much like to spend some time with Greg Mortenson.  His life fascinates me.  What a wonderful experience he had, growing up in Africa.  Growing up with people with a differnt skin color, prepared him for looking past differences, and to accept them.  It seems to me that when a person gets to really know someone, whose appearance is different from their own, it reduces prejudice. 

My late husband was totally blind for the last eleven years of his life.  He was very much turned off by men with long hair, and a Hippie lifestyle.  We drove to the place where we built a home in the 1970s.  We were interested to see what it looked like, years later.  When we got there, a man in his 30s came out to talk with us.  He had long hair, and 60s clothing and he and my husband had an enjoyable conversation.  I was struck by knowing that if Ralph had been able to see, he probably would not have been open to conversing with him.

I am so grateful to have lived in Europe.  We were stationed there in the early 60s.  I have been to Italy, Germany, England, Ireland, and Austria .  I am grateful for having experienced so many different cultures.  I have also spent time in both Canada and Mexico.  Being exposed to different cultures, has enriched my life.  However, I know nothing of Pakistan, or Afganistan.

Sheila

[ALF43]

Babi-  you are tall so I can see you having a son who is 6'4", the size of GM.  

Who WAS this mangy-looking dude in his dirty shalwar? 
 I looked that word up and here is a picture of a shalwar (salwar), these PJ like outfits worn by both men and women.
check it out here

They had to guess at his nationality, we're told, as "word spread that an enormous infidel in brown pajamas was loading a truck full of supplies for muslim schoolchildren."
I loved the way that Abdul cleaned Greg's shoes and took such pride in his appearance. 

 You are correct serene in your statement about the descriptive, poetic writing of D O R.  Although, I must admit, like DOR, people that have no sense of a time frame"  such as GM drive me nuts, too!  I like timely!!!!  If you are supposed to be somewhere aat a certain time, then BE THERE!

Can you believe that the amount of supplies, a height of 20 feet, that had to be secured? 20 ft. high?

[ALF43]

Anna- I quote you:

GOD BLESS EVERYONE  regardless of what name you use..

That is the beauty of sharing this type of literature.

Few of us are knowledgable of this religion or AREA, nor have lived as these people do and yet we understand that dissimilar worship, tenets and beliefs should be honored and respected as we seperately glorify and invoke our own deity.

Jonathan says

'He has no problem at all with joining
in prayer with his Muslim allies, and praying in their fashion.'

I think Mortenson does and on pg. 75 we read that "there would be plenty of opportunity, searching for a foothold on the passenger door, to practice his praying."

I would feel so blessed to be accepted at a different worship ritual.

[Persian]

SHEILA - I appreciate your comments about the blessings you experienced during your residency in Europe, as my son and his family just returned to the USA after a 2 1/2 posting in Germany.  During their assignment abroad, they took full advantage of their geographical location to travel extensively, hike, ski, and paraglide over some magnificent areas.  My two grandkids studied foreign languages while in Europe and I tease them about their accents now when they speak English.

I wonder whether after reading about Mortenson's experiences, any of the posters here will be inclined to visit a mosque and take an opportunity to talk with Muslims?  Those who live in (or near) large cities should have no trouble locating an Islamic house of worship.  I've often accompanied non-Muslim friends, colleagues and students to the mosques in Washington DC so that they could interact with the congregants and learn about Islam.  Some of the folks I accompanied returned on their own and participated in various functions at the invitation of the Muslims whom they'd met earlier.  Numerous times they were invited to bring their children to special programs for the youth and it was great fun for the host families AND the visitors.

I also recall that some of the same visitors who accompanied me to an Islamic mosque, also went with me to visit worship services in Quaker congregations in Pennsylvania, a Pentecostal church in a small farming community, a beautiful large Catholic church in Maryland, and a Jewish shul  (also in Maryland), where I used to teach American citizensip classes in the Welcome Center.   All different types of services, manners of worshiping "the same God," but welcoming to us as sojourners.  One doesn't always have to travel to faraway places to learn about different faith customs.  Sometimes the opportunities are nearby.

ALF - I smiled when I read your comment about being on time.  I'm confident that if you traveled in rural areas of Central Asia (like Mortenson and others) you would be so heartily welcomed that your Western sense of time would surely take a back seat to the joy and fascination you experienced.  And "being on time" is interpreted quite differently in various parts of the world.  For example, a statement like "Ill be there next week," doesn't give a specific date/day/time, but you would be welcomed whenever you arrived.

JOAN - I wondered if there had been any attempt to contact Greg Mortenson since he is back in the US and invite him to participate occasionally in this discussion?

Mahlia

[pedln]

Anna, Jonathan, Sheila – so good to see you all here.  And an interesting point, Jonathan, about GM always being aware of his bearings, knowing where he was.  But my heart bled for him as he was typing up all those letters, not knowing how quickly a computer would do the job for him.  But perhaps that is just part of his very independent nature.

And then I wonder, is he that independent?  What a lot of trust it took to turn over the purchase of supplies to Abdul and others.  $12,000  that he had struggled so hard to get.  (That professor is probably another story.  I hope he comes up again.)

Another facet of GM that was impressive – he didn’t touch a cent of that $12,000 for anything concerning him, but sold off a lot of belongings, treasured items, to get enough funds to travel to Pakistan.

PatH, you brought up a good point about the nature of GM – that he’s a very caring person, and that after Christa’s death it was only natural for him to be caring for another.

Andy, it sounds like Mortenson and his African time was much like Puerto Rican time.  “Come to dinner at 7,”  said our hostess, and then we sat down to eat at ten.  We were the first ones there, of course.  However, adapting to another culture’s time frame is pretty easy.  But after 10 years of showing up when you pleased, it didn’t take too long to find out that that didn’t go over very well in the States.

[ALF43]

The sense or lack thereof of TIME was not just something from Mortenson's Central Asian experience.  His mother said he had always been like that.  The co-author agreed as to the frustration knowing someone that had no sense of time.
 I'm sure if he was working diligently to co-author a book and had scheduled time with Mortenson it would be very frustrating when the guy didn't show.

[serenesheila]

The talk about punctuality, made me think of my time in Germany.  We visited other countries in Europe by train.  My son warned me that Germans are exceptionally punctual.  During one trip, we had to change trains, and were a bit late for the connection, so we had to run to get to the next train.  I was afraid that I would be left, alone, as I run, anymore.   We did manage to get on board before the train took off, but it took me at least an hour to recover from my run.

MAHLIA, my son and his family were in Germany for five years.  Both of my grandchildren were required to learn German. Now that they are back in the states, they are taking it again.  I had one semester of German in high school.  To my surprise I was often able to make myself understood with my limited language skill.

Last night I watched a wonderful program about Afganistan and Pakastan women.  It was on PBS, and was called:  "The View of a Grain of Sand."  I highly reccomend it.  The more I see about those two countries, the  more I want to know.  I would like to visit a Mosque.  Yes, I would love to take part in a discussion with women from that part of the world.

Sheila

[ALF43]

Well, Mahlia, that surely answers your question:

I wonder whether after reading about Mortenson's experiences, any of the posters here will be inclined to visit a mosque and take an opportunity to talk with Muslims?

The more I see about those two countries, the  more I want to know.  I would like to visit a Mosque.  Yes, I would love to take part in a discussion with women from that part of the world.
from Sheila

Let us hope that we have opened up a whole new world!

[Persian]

SHEILA - your comments about having to run to transfer from one train to another made me recall a similar adventure which my son experienced while he and his family were in Europe.
His family was hosting in-laws from Charlotte, NC, who are high-energy tourists and really like to schedule as much "viewing" into one day as possible.  On one of those occasions, when my son was traveling in a portable wheelchair (before his knee surgery), he was pushed to the head of a line where many folks were waiting to board a tour boat.  The Steward pushed my son forward, welcomed him aboard and disappeared.  My son thought that his wife, kids and in-laws were right behind him.  But no . . .  they were not wheelchair bound, so the Steward refused to let them board with my son.  And in fact, there were too many passengers waiting to board the same boat, so the family were told to line up in another que for a second boat.  It was some minutes until my son realized that he alone was on the #1 boat, while his family were on the #2, which was headed in a totally different direction.  Needless to say, it was a VERY long day:  17 hours later and much haggling, shouting, paying baksheesh to several folks, my son and his family were reunited at their hotel.  My grandson's reaction to "almost" losing his father:  "Boy, Gram, Dad can REALLY cuss loud!"

Let me encourage you that if indeed you would enjoy visiting a mosque, interacting with the Imam or other staff, don't hesitate to contact one in your area, explaining your purpose for calling.  I'm confident you would be most welcome and perhaps have an opportunity to participate in prayers (not unusual, although many folks may not realize that) with the womens' group, learn about other customs or events in that particular mosque and perhaps add your name to announcements for future community events.  Just like many houses of worship, most Islamic mosques in the USA tend to interact regularly with their local communities.  There may be more restrictions pertaining to non-Muslims in the smaller orthodox mosques, but generally it has been my experience (and that of others who have visited mosques in their areas) that a warm welcome is extended and questions are answered graciously.

Mahlia

[ALF43]

It never ceases to amaze me- even in a far away place we encounter shysters. 
This dishonest Changazi is a piece of work isn't he? Mortenson tired of arguing and eating rounds of meals with this guy, insists that he wants his supplies. 
  This was becoming more and more tedious and he muses while staring at the summit ridges how simple it was to be a climber, just focus on a peak, organize men and suppplies and "go for it."    This was another story dealing with the stubborn and solicitous Changazi and he angrily refuses now to speak to Changazi until he takes him to Korphe.

I understand all of these guys though, they all want the same thing.  They want their kids of their own poor village to get the school.

[Babi]

 Yeah, we're used to construction sites that bring in materials as they are needed, ALF.
But when you think of gathering up all the supplies and materials you will need
for even a small school, wow!  I consider it a minor miracle that the truck even
 made it through the mountains on those narrow 'roads'.
 
  I find myself wondering if the sense of time here isn't at least partly
due to the difficulties in travel and the distances. It would seem to be a
case of "I'll be there ____, God willing, and the mountain doesn't move!"
 And can you imagine traveling in the days of Isabella Bird? Frankly, I'd
rather be following the river on a horse, than riding a truck on the
mountainside with one wheel off the road!
 
   It seems apparent that Changhazi was hoping to coerce Mortenson into
changing his mind by hiding his supplies and surrounding him with men
constantly arguing and pleading. But he was not a thief, and when GM
stood his ground and refused to have anything further to do with his
manipulations, Changhazi restored the supplies and moved them where
requested.
  I was surprised, tho', that it did not occur to Mortenson from the beginning
that the school materials could not be conveyed across that gorge w/o a
bridge.

[Persian]

Reading and discussing this book offers a wonderful opportunity to learn about differences in cultures, but also to reflect on how we (as individuals within our own locales and experiences) might have responded to Mortenson's challenges.  Would we pay baksheesh or perhaps divert some supplies to another village?  Would we agree to come back to that other village on a subsequent trip if the current trip (and supplies) are allowed to move forward.  And if we agreed, would we REALLY mean it?  Keep our word or jut disappear after the current project was completed?

Unfortunately, as we see worldwide, there is ongoing corruption not only on the receiving end (rural villagers, their elders, other clans and tribes) and with major components in the local, regional and national governments of those countries, but also among the agencies offering supplies or funding.  I've worked previously in Washington DC long enough, as well as abroad, to have witnessed these unhappy occurrences personally.

But overall Mortenson's plan - his insistence if you will - that his time, efforts and building supplies reach the village he set out for is (to me) a clear indication of a man who has realized in his own lifelong quest and his recognition of his love for family that "one step forward" at a time is the way to go.  There is always another day to help others, whether personally or creating donor groups or agencies.  The goal here as I understand it is "Make a promise, keep a promise."

Mahlia

[JoanK]

PERSIAN: your story of taking people to visit a Mosque in Washington, DC reminds me there was a beautiful mosque on Massachusetts Avenue in DC. As a young adult, I used to pass it every day, and was fascinated by it. I always wanted to visit it, but had no idea how, or if I would be welcome.

The way Mortinson proceeds in Pakistan is a source of amazement to me. He meets someone casually, and before you can blink your eyes, he has enlisted them into years of dedication to his project. This testifies both to an extrordinary quality in Mortensen, and also to extrordinary qualities in the Pakistanis who share at once his longing for their children to be educated.

Not everyone shares this longing for education. I have seen immegrants to this country make extrordinary sacrifices to get an education for their children. But I have seen others, not necessarily imegrants, who put roadblocks in their children's way, fearing that once educated their children will abandon or look down on their parents.

This is not an empty fear. I have seen that, too.

[Persian]

Joan - perhaps it was the Islamic Center on Mass. Avenue to which you refer?  I used to take many guests there and they were always well received.  Indeed, it was a site of many fine meetings, worship services, opportunities to learn about Islam and its adherents, but unfortunately it was also embroiled in arguments between the Saudis (especially the Saudi Ambassador in Washington and the Saudi Royal Family) which forced the Center to bar numerous Muslims of various sects from worship service and oust the long-time (and highly respected) Imam.  He in turn promptly set up worship services outside on the lawn.  When the Saudis erected a high iron fence to block those services, the Imam held the regular services on the sidewalk.  That change blocked traffic, which brought in the D.C. Police and the conflicting issue went on for several years.  The building was outstanding in its beauty, but became the focus of discontent between the Islamic sects.

Mahlia