Author Topic: Kristin Lavransdatter  (Read 88453 times)

PatH

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #320 on: May 21, 2015, 12:26:29 PM »
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April/May Book Club Online


Kristin Lavransdatter
by Sigrid Undset




This Nobel prize-winning book is the tumultuous story of the daughter of a 14th century Norwegian nobleman-farmer.

  I loved it when I first read it decades ago, and now there’s a new translation which makes it even better.



Schedule: April 21-25  Jørundgaard, Chapters 1-4
          April 26-30 Jørundgaard, Chapters 5-7
          May 1 or 2-4, The Wreath, Chapters 1-3
          May 5-9, The Wreath, Chapters 4-8
          May 10-13, Lavrans Bjørgulfsøn, Chapters 1-4
          May 13-16+, Lavrans Bjørgulfsøn, Chapters 5-8

Book 2--The Wife (The Mistress of Husaby)
          May 17-20  Part 1, The Fruit of Sin, Chapters 1-3
          May 21-? The Fruit of Sin, Chapters 4-6

Questions:

Jorundgaard
Chapters 5-7:
How much control did young people have over who they married?
Why can't Kristin and Arne even think of marrying?
Kristin doesn't much want to marry Simon.  Why didn't she ask her father to release her from the betrothal?
After her encounter with Bentein, Kristin made some mistakes that made her more vulnerable to gossip.  Should she have avoided these?
What do you think of Simon?
In the fuss over Arne's death, Simon behaves very capably and sensibly.  Why does his calmness make Kristin like him less?

The Wreath:
Chapters 1-3

Kristin seems to fall for Erlend instantly and completely.  Does this this seem realistic?  Does Erlend feel the same way?
What is Erlend like?  Can you like or approve of him?
What is the oath the two swear to each other after the dance?  Is it binding?

Discussion Leader: PatH




PatH

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #321 on: May 21, 2015, 12:27:38 PM »
Yes, Bellamarie, do. I was just coming in to ask if people had read it yet.  We left it a little vague, but said we would add the remaining 3 chapters in a couple of days, and it's time.  A lot happens in them.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #322 on: May 21, 2015, 02:25:04 PM »
Well Ballamarie, Simcha Fisher sure sums it up doesn't she - well done finding that bit in of all places the Catholic Register - ha reminds me I had not renewed my subscription in I bet 6 months but then so much I have to catch up since I was spending so much time seeing Charlotte through her death.

What was that light opera written by Bernstein - something about the two waring gangs in NY and the white lover dies in a fight with the Hispanic gang that thinks it is standing up for the girl - I can even hear some of the music in my head but cannot think on the name - I know it is a take off on Romeo and Juliet but knowing that the good guy has bad things happen, it is the closest I can think of to this idea that good does not necessarily attract good but I am not sure I can think of a movie or novel where the bad guy is the hero - Fonzie to a degree but not really, he is more irreverent rather than bad, he just buys into the new ways that teens at the time were taunting adults and the establishment.

Hmm have not seen the movie but I wonder if the lead in that Wall Street movie from last year could be an example - from what I do hear he was quite immoral - I doubt though that there was this revenge motive - maybe Fist Full of Dollars - just scratching my head trying to come up with a protagonist that like Erlend, who is typical of some of these pre-Christian Sagas, taking what he wants when he wants it, explaining it away with logic and charm and still tripping from land estate to the king's court so that you never know where he is going to pop up.

As to Kristin now I am going to be on the lookout for how she encourages him to see those who disapprove as his enemy and if there are times he tries to dampen down and rebuild his reputation that she sabotages - I can see now when her friend, back when Kristin was in the convent and first spent time with Erlend, her friend was sowing the seeds of discontent - sure she was the messenger of Erlend's character but I got the impression he was not willing to share the truth at first to have some time when he was accepted by Kristin as a clean slate and was very willing to share his story within a day of that more than proper night in the garden. At the time I was reading how the friend gossiped about him I thought she was jealous and being mean - well it appears she may have been just that since we know now it is women who pushed the vengeance.    

How sad to realize a teenage act of passion would haunt you making you feel 'less than', racked with guilt for the rest of your life - this is where being Christian knowing God's love and forgiveness did not penetrate but only built more guilt for Kristin's mom - we do not know her teenage back story but it appears she was bonded over by her parents to Lavrans making them both unhappy. I can see how Kristin was not going to let that happen to her even if she did not know all of her mother's story.

Ya know, come to think of it we have a couple of Presidents who could fit some of the characteristics of an Erlend. Ah yes... and further just hit - this concept of sex and what we see as an unseemly marriage fits Norway's great hero saint - St. Olaf - hmmm
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Halcyon

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #323 on: May 21, 2015, 04:07:32 PM »
Barb, I think you're referring to West Side Story, one of my favorite musicals.  It occurred to me that the Church, like Kristin, is also on a spiritual journey. It's like a living organism, never static but always evolving, trying to adapt to an ever changing environment. Very interesting.

PatH

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #324 on: May 21, 2015, 04:17:47 PM »
The musical was West Side Story.

I don't see Kristin as sabotaging Erlend's reputation.  She's building it as best she can, and if he had only kept his hands off her after they were betrothed, marrying her would have done much more for his status.

At the end of chapter one in this section Kristin and Erlend are talking, and she says: "--and it certainly would have been in in your own best interest."

He replies: "Jesus help me, Kristin--have you ever heard it said of me that I did anything that was in my own best interest?"

That's a fair summing up.  Erlend is his own worst enemy. 

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #325 on: May 21, 2015, 04:29:04 PM »
But is he - only if we measure him by Christian standards rather than the standards of the old ways - that is where I now can see he has one foot in the Christian world and the author has him with one foot in the old world that in today's standards and in the Christian standards of the day he would be his own worst enemy. It will be interesting to see how Sigrid Undset sorts that out, these characters seem to carry guilt for behavior that for some is still the way of things - I almost wonder but  have not re-read to see if Sigrid Undset is replacing guilt for what would have become a cycle of revenge in keeping with the old ways.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #326 on: May 21, 2015, 04:31:52 PM »
Quote
It occurred to me that the Church, like Kristin, is also on a spiritual journey. It's like a living organism, never static but always evolving, trying to adapt to an ever changing environment. Very interesting
.
Interesting indeed, Halcyon.  I think you're right.

A lifetime ago I saw the original Broadway production of West Side Story.  It was unforgettable.  Chita Rivera is still around.  At the moment she's starring in a Broadway musical based on Friedrich Dürrenmatt's play The Visit.  She's 82.

PatH

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #327 on: May 21, 2015, 04:50:23 PM »
Our conversations are criss-crossing, Barb.  I think Erlend is his own worst enemy in any world.  He always does what he wants without thinking of the consequences, and then tries to weasel out of it however he can.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #328 on: May 21, 2015, 05:08:39 PM »
Yes, Pat but that is the Christian way of looking at him - he is according to what we have learned about characters in the Saga piece he is acting as those who were in those stories and representing the way of life before Christianity.

I like how you say this Halcyon, "It occurred to me that the Church, like Kristin, is also on a spiritual journey. It's like a living organism, never static but always evolving, trying to adapt to an ever changing environment."    ;) Although there are some today in Rome that are having a difficult time evolving for today's changing environment - but this story is really an example isn't it of a religion trying to change the society and yet, adapt to the society's way of life.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

StellaMaris

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #329 on: May 21, 2015, 09:42:32 PM »
??"there are some today in Rome that are having a difficult time evolving.."?? Not sure what is being said here.

What section are we moving on to now--I've stopped at Part ll Husaby, Ch. 1.
Fiat Lux!

PatH

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #330 on: May 21, 2015, 10:04:05 PM »
You got it right, StellaMaris.  That's where we're stopping for now.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #331 on: May 21, 2015, 10:07:42 PM »
StellaMaris that was just my side bar about the evolving church and how ironic that today some of the Curia are stuck in thinking recreate means to recreate the past, so much so that the German Alpine group from Vatican II are considering a break away - Pope Francis has his hands full and has gotten rid of some of the worst culprits.

I too have been on chapter 1 and wondered if we are waiting for next week to read and discuss further since this is a long holiday weekend.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #332 on: May 21, 2015, 10:08:38 PM »
ah thanks Pat - ask and you shall receive - chapter 1 it is...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #333 on: May 21, 2015, 10:14:51 PM »
Possible misunderstanding.  We're stopping just at the start of Part 2, Husaby, just as we come to chapter 1 but not reading it.  Finishing off The Fruit of Sin, 3-6.

bellamarie

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #334 on: May 21, 2015, 11:10:35 PM »
PatH.,
Quote
I don't see Kristin as sabotaging Erlend's reputation.  She's building it as best she can, and if he had only kept his hands off her after they were betrothed, marrying her would have done much more for his status.

I have to agree with you Pat, I don't see Kristin sabotaging Erlend in any way whatsoever.  He is his own worst enemy by any measure, Christian or Saga.  In these next chapters his brother the priest, talks with him and says since a boy he had gotten into trouble and their mother favored him. Erlend seems entitled, he expects everything to be given to him, yet what he does own he takes no pride in caring for it, even his own wife Kristin.  She comes to Husaby and takes charge of an estate in ruin.

The woman I see, who is the saboteur, as the video states in Norse sagas,  is Lady Aashild, and I am sure we will see why this is before the books end.  Revenge and jealousy, are usually the prime reasons for such acts, so what do you think it will be?  Possibly both?

 Halcyon, I do see where the Norwegian culture, and church are evolving, as in the video Barb provided, it shows how it was beneficial to Norway to convert to Christianity. "Olaf wanted Christianity to make trade possible with other Christian nations so he promoted conversion."

Olaf is a major character in Norse sagas, Olaf became one of the wealthiest landowners in Iceland and played a major role in its politics and society during the latter half of the tenth century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaf_the_Peacock

These next 3 chapters are quite revealing.

Yes, indeed it was West Side Story!  I loved that play.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #335 on: May 22, 2015, 02:07:44 AM »
I guess what I see and therefore say he was not his worst enemy is that he seems to fall in line with these Saga characters, who like Erlend take what they want, when they want it, and they too display this sense of entitlement however, I think they see nothing wrong with this and do not seem to shy from whatever the outcome. And so, I see Erlend more as an archetype of the old Norse character who, different then they he bumps up against this new Christian morality and the law, some of which is within him but only in his brain -

In one breath, he feels he should obey the laws and has a sense of guilt, not for his behavior but if things do not work out.  In the other breath, he reacts with no conscious thought of the laws or the concepts of Christian behavior. To me he is living in his heart the old way and he has to load his brain before he acts with Christian sensibilities. Then, he could charm as a way of sidestepping the effects of this conundrum of both living the old way, which is true to his Aunt Lady Ashild and his mother's father Gaute Erlendsson, (who really epitomized the old ways) while struggling to act from his brain where lay his roots with the now deceased Bishop of Oslo and with King Haakon IV.  

As to Kristin, early on when she heard of the disarray of Erlend's holdings and affairs she spoke of her farming skills and was going to get everything ship shape - in that she reminded me of what we read about St. Margaret of Scotland - with Erlend she had a calling beyond being a mother to their babies, to get his land and affairs in order.

She seems as caught in her passions for him as he is for her. I see her playing the game of having what she wants while trying not to step on the legal, church, family and social landmines of the time that will affect her reputation.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #336 on: May 22, 2015, 03:54:52 AM »

The Yule Goat is one of the oldest Scandinavian Yule symbols and traditions. Its origins might go as far back as to pre-Christian days, where goats were connected to the Norse god Thor, who rode the sky in a chariot drawn by two goats, Tanngrisnir and Tanngnjóstr, and carried his hammer Mjöllnir.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #337 on: May 22, 2015, 10:23:12 AM »
Now that I've seen all of the BBC program, I see why you say Erlend is straight from the sagas.

That's a very interesting program.  Did you notice, at 29 seconds into it, the brief scene of men seated on two facing benches with a fire pit between them?  The halls of the people in our book would surely be more spacious, but it gives an idea of the system.

Before we go on, were the rest of you as appalled as I was at the behavior of Munan, Baard, Ulf, and Erlend at the pre-lenten feast?  A nice set of role models for Erlend to have grown up with.

StellaMaris

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #338 on: May 22, 2015, 04:48:18 PM »
Thanks for getting me oriented. I'll stay on hold for now.

BarbStA: I see. Just for the record, I do disagree with your statement about the "Curia being stuck". I'll leave it at that and continue with the discussion of this wonderful book!  ;)
Fiat Lux!

bellamarie

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #339 on: May 22, 2015, 07:18:07 PM »
Yes, PatH.,  I had mentioned it earlier about the disrespect they showed at their guests table.  It was as if they were on a mission to call Erlend and Kristin out on all their sins at the table.  Very sad, I could never imagine having someone come to my home and act like that.

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #340 on: May 22, 2015, 09:24:49 PM »
I really like Gunnulf the priest, Erlend's brother.  He seems to genuinely care about Kristin, and wants her to understand God is a forgiving God, and she can do penance and receive God's grace of forgiveness.  

For all you who are not versed in Latin, this passage is:

Psalm 51  9-11 A prayer of Repentance

Averte faciam tuam a peccatis meis__                                          Hide Your face from my sins,
et omnes iniquitates meas dele.                                                       And blot out all my iniquities.
Cor mundum crea in me, Deus__                                                      Create in me a clean heart, O God,                                                    
et spiritum rectum innova in visceribus meis.                                    And renew a steadfast spirit within me.                                  
Ne projicias me a facie tua__                                                           Do not cast me away from Your presence,
et Spiritum Sanctum tuum ne auferas a me.
                               And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

I love the verses 1 - 19

Have mercy upon me, O God,
According to Your lovingkindness;
According to the multitude of Your tender mercies,
Blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
And cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions,
And my sin is always before me.
4 Against You, You only, have I sinned,
And done this evil in Your sight—
That You may be found just when You speak,[a]
And blameless when You judge.
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
6 Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me hear joy and gladness,
That the bones You have broken may rejoice.
9 Hide Your face from my sins,
And blot out all my iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence,
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
And uphold me by Your generous Spirit.
13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
And sinners shall be converted to You.
14 Deliver me from the guilt of bloodshed, O God,
The God of my salvation,
And my tongue shall sing aloud of Your righteousness.
15 O Lord, open my lips,
And my mouth shall show forth Your praise.
16 For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart—
These, O God, You will not despise.
18 Do good in Your good pleasure to Zion;
Build the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then You shall be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness,
With burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
Then they shall offer bulls on Your altar.


pg. 328 "Understand you this?" asked Gunnulf, and Kristin nodded and said she understood a little.  She knew enough of the words' meaning to be strangely moved that her eyes should fall on them just now.  Her face quivered a little, and she could not keep back her tears.  Then Gunnulf took the psaltery on his lap, and said he would try if he could not mend it.

Here is when I think Kristin begins to feel, there is hope for her to be forgiven.  
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #341 on: May 23, 2015, 08:25:11 AM »
Thanks for the psalm, Bellamarie.  It's lovely, isn't it.

Kristin has been fortunate in her spiritual advisers.  First Sira Eirik, then the remarkable Brother Edvin, and now it looks like Gunnulf is going to be another, and a friend to her as well.  What a contrast between him and the rest of his family.  He's everything they aren't: studious, thoughtful, pious and good.  Wonder how that happened?

bellamarie

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #342 on: May 23, 2015, 04:30:16 PM »
Yes, Kristin has been blessed to have good spiritual guides in her life, and I would even include her own father.  He is a good, Christian, hard working man, who has made it important to teach her not only about their faith, but also how to deal with tasks in life, which has come in handy for her now that it is necessary to keep Husaby in good order, not to mention sending her to the convent to help her to grow in her faith.

I was thinking when Gunnulf was telling Kristin about how Erlend was as a child, and the mother favored him and seemed to let him get away with misbehaving, and how it seems it does a child especially a male more harm than good to spoil and not discipline them, when growing up.  It teaches them to think others will do the same, and when they do become an adult they feel entitled.  

My philosophy with my two sons was to not always make everything in their life easy for them.  Let them know what it is like to struggle to appreciate things in life.  We helped both sons, and our daughter with their school tuitions, buying their first cars, and car insurance, but it was also expected of them to be responsible, to have some small job to pay for their gas, and extras they wanted to do while in high school and college.  I know this story is taking place in the fourteenth century, but I am certain men were still expected to work and take care of things.  Erlend does not even seem to care about the little family things, that Gunnulf seems to hold dear, such as the psaltery, and the game board.  Two brothers, total opposites.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #343 on: May 23, 2015, 11:17:30 PM »
Interesting find - we think we know the Christian religion and its phases of change and growth and then I came across this bit explaining the contents of a book on Amazon

During the late thirteenth and early fourteenth centuries a group of monks with occult interests donated what became a remarkable collection of more than thirty magic texts to the library of the Benedictine abbey of St. Augustine’s in Canterbury. The monks collected texts that provided positive justifications for the practice of magic and books in which works of magic were copied side by side with works of more licit genres.

Magic in the Cloister: Pious Motives, Illicit Interests, and Occult Approaches to the Medieval Universe, Sophie Page uses this collection to explore the gradual shift toward more positive attitudes to magical texts and ideas in medieval Europe. She examines what attracted monks to magic texts, in spite of the dangers involved in studying condemned works, and how the monks combined magic with their intellectual interests and monastic life. By showing how it was possible for religious insiders to integrate magical studies with their orthodox worldview, Magic in the Cloister contributes to a broader understanding of the role of magical texts and ideas and their acceptance in the late Middle Ages.

And then I find THIS - shocked me speechless - had no idea - it was written later but includes the magic of earlier time by a POPE

This being a partial translation of Wellcome MS 4666, with numerous additions translated from the French editions of the Grimoire of Pope Honorius dated 1670, 1760 & 1800, and a new translation of the German edition of 1845.

The Grimoire of Pope Honorius is the first and most important of the French ‘black magic’ grimoires which proliferated across Europe in the 17th-19th centuries. Combining a grimoire of conjurations to demons of the four directions and seven days of the week with a Book of Secrets full of simple charms, the Grimoire of Pope Honorius was second only to the Key of Solomon in the influence it exerted on magicians, charmers and cunning-folk in both rural and urban France. This grimoire also played a role in social events which rocked France, being used in the Affair of the Poisons which scandalised the French royal court in 1679, and by the young priest who assassinated the archbishop of Paris in 1857. (who knew??!!??)

The Complete Grimoire of Pope Honorius contains material translated from all four of the different French editions of the Grimoire of Pope Honorius, including the complete text of one manuscript version never before seen in English (Wellcome 4666), and a new translation of the later corrupted German version of 1845. All of the material and its variations found in the five different editions of the Grimoire of Pope Honorius is contained in this work, presenting the entire corpus of this grimoire in print for the first time. In addition to tracing much of the material to sources such as the Heptathlon, the works of Agrippa and earlier religious texts for the first time, the derivation of much of the material into later grimoires including the Grimorium Verum, the Grand Grimoire/Red Dragon and the Black Dragon is clearly demonstrated.

As well as charms for health, wealth, sex and protection, the Grimoire of Pope Honorius also contains a substantial number of agrarian charms by the Norman magician Guidon for protecting livestock, emphasising the popular rural use of such charms until at least the 19th century. The corpus of charms comes from diverse sources, including Scot’s Discoverie of Witchcraft (1584), and some like the Letter of St Anthony can be dated back to at least the 13th century.

Including numerous illustrations, and tables tracing the derivation of the material through the different editions and into other grimoires, the Complete Grimoire of Pope Honorius demonstrates the versatility and significance of this grimoire, cutting past outdated misperceptions to a viewpoint which reflects more accurately the position of the Grimoire of Pope Honorius in the development of magic since the seventeenth century.

Then I find book after book on Amazon about how when Christianity entered the north in about 1100 there was an entwining of the old magic, ruins, witches etc. with the Christian message - I could have guessed since that had been and still is the pattern of the Church when it extends into new cultures however, some of these books are rather exact to the process of St. Olaf's hidden treasures, witches, and spirits of the air, water, and earth.

An example is DuBois, who wrote, Nordic Religions in the Viking Age in which he examines Anglo-Saxon, Celtic, and Mediterranean traditions to locate significant Nordic parallels in conceptions of supernatural beings, cults of the dead, beliefs in ghosts, and magical practices. These beliefs were actively held alongside Christianity for many years, and were finally incorporated into the vernacular religious practice. The Icelandic sagas reflect this complex process in their inclusion of both Christian and pagan details.

Thomas A. DuBois holds a doctorate in Folklore and Folklife from the University of Pennsylvania. He taught for ten years at the University of Washington, Seattle, and now teaches at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, where he is director of the university's Folklore Studies program. His research and teaching focuses particularly on Nordic cultures, chiefly Finnish and Sámi. In addition to producing a number of books of his own.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #344 on: May 24, 2015, 01:12:41 AM »
Barb, I have no doubt you will find slews of books written by many renowned scholars, and religious clergy, who have attested to magic, witchcraft, and paganism in the early times. 

The Bible was pretty clear on its stance on worshiping idols, and other Gods, which any form of magic would be considered someone possessing supernatural powers, along with:

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

III. "YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME"

2110 The first commandment forbids honoring gods other than the one Lord who has revealed himself to his people. It proscribes superstition and irreligion. Superstition in some sense represents a perverse excess of religion; irreligion is the vice contrary by defect to the virtue of religion.

Superstition

2111 Superstition is the deviation of religious feeling and of the practices this feeling imposes. It can even affect the worship we offer the true God, e.g., when one attributes an importance in some way magical to certain practices otherwise lawful or necessary. To attribute the efficacy of prayers or of sacramental signs to their mere external performance, apart from the interior dispositions that they demand, is to fall into superstition.41

Idolatry

2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47

Divination and magic

2115 God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints. Still, a sound Christian attitude consists in putting oneself confidently into the hands of Providence for whatever concerns the future, and giving up all unhealthy curiosity about it. Improvidence, however, can constitute a lack of responsibility.

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity




Here is a link that outlines Christianity and refers to paganism, and witchcraft. 

Christianization of Scandinavia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization_of_Scandinavia

Here is a timeline on witchcraft and the Catholic church:  http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_burn2.htm

The Witchhunt timeline:

*   Prior to the 9th century CE: There was a widespread popular belief that evil Witches existed. They were seen as evil persons, primarily women, who devoted their lives to harming and killing others through black magic and evil sorcery. The Catholic church at the time officially taught that such Witches did not exist. It was a heresy to say that they were real. "For example, the 5th century Synod of St. Patrick ruled that 'A Christian who believes that there is a vampire in the world, that is to say, a witch, is to be anathematized; whoever lays that reputation upon a living being shall not be received into the Church until he revokes with his own voice the crime that he has committed.' A capitulary from Saxony (775-790 CE) blamed these stereotypes on pagan belief systems: 'If anyone, deceived by the Devil, believes after the manner of the Pagans that any man or woman is a witch and eats men, and if on this account he burns [the alleged witch]... he shall be punished by capital sentence." 1

*   906 CE: Regino of Prum, the Abbot of Treves, wote the Canon Episcopi. It reinforced the church's teaching that Witches did not exist. It admitted that some confused and deluded women thought that they flew through the air with the Pagan Goddess Diana. But this did not happen in reality; it was explained away as some form of hallucination.

*   Circa 975 CE: Penalties for Witchcraft and the use of healing magic were relatively mild. The English Confessional of Egbert said, in part: "If a woman works witchcraft and enchantment and [uses] magical philters, she shall fast for twelve months...If she kills anyone by her philters, she shall fast for seven years." Fasting, in this case, involved consuming only bread and water.
 
*   circa 1140: Gratian, an Italian monk, incorporated the Canon Episcopi into canon law.

*   circa 1203: The Cathar movement, a Gnostic Christian group, had become popular in the Orleans area of France and in Italy. They were declared heretics. Pope Innocent III approved a war of genocide against the Cathars. The last known Cathar was burned at the stake in 1321 CE. The faith has seen a rebirth in recent years.

*   1227: Pope Gregory IX established the Inquisitional Courts to arrest, try, convict and execute heretics.

*   1252: Pope Innocent IV wrote a papal bull titled "Ad exstirpanda" which authorized the use of torture during inquisitional trials. This greatly increased the conviction rate.

*   1258: Pope Alexander IV instructed the Inquisition to confine their investigations to cases of heresy. They were to not investigate charges of divination or sorcery unless heresy was also involved.

*   1265: Pope Clement IV reaffirms the use of torture.

*   1326: The Church authorized the Inquisition to investigate Witchcraft and to develop "demonology." This is the theory of the diabolic origin of Witchcraft. 1

*   1330: The popular concept of Witches as evil sorcerers is expanded to include belief that they swore allegiance to Satan, had sexual relations with the Devil, kidnapped and ate children, etc. Some religious conservatives still believe this today.

*   1347 to 1349: The Black Death epidemic killed a sizeable part of the European population. Conspiracy theories spread. Lepers, Jews, Muslims and Witches were accused of poisoning wells and spreading disease.

*   1430's: Christian theologians started to write articles and books which "proved" the existence of Witches. 2

*   1436-7: Johannes (John) Nider wrote a book called Formicarius, which describe the prosecution of a man for Witchcraft. Copies of this book were often added to the Malleus Maleficarum in later years. Some sources say that the author Thomas of Brabant; this is apparently an error.

*   1450: The first major witch hunts began in many western European countries. The Roman Catholic Church created an imaginary evil religion, using stereotypes that had circulated since pre-Christian times. They said that Pagans who worshiped Diana and other Gods and Goddesses were evil Witches who kidnapped babies, killed and ate their victims, sold their soul to Satan, were in league with demons, flew through the air, met in the middle of the night, caused male impotence and infertility, caused male genitals to disappear, etc. Historians have speculated that this religiously inspired genocide was motivated by a desire by the Church to attain a complete religious monopoly, or was "a tool of repression, a form of reining-in deviant behavior, a backlash against women, or a tool of the common people to name scapegoats for spoiled crops, dead livestock or the death of babies and children." Walter Stephens, a professor of Italian studies at Johns Hopkins University, proposes a new theory: "I think Witches were a scapegoat for God." 3 Religious leaders felt that they had to retain the concepts of both an omnipotent and an all-loving deity. Thus, they had to invent Witches and demons in order to explain the existence of evil in the world. This debate, about how an all-good and all-powerful God can coexist in the world with evil is now called Theodicy. Debate continues to the present day.

*   1450: Johann Gutenberg invented moveable type which made mass printing possible. This enabled the wide distribution of Papal bulls and books on Witch persecution; the witch hunt was greatly facilitated.

*   1484: Pope Innocent VIII issued a papal bull "Summis desiderantes" on DEC-5 which promoted the tracking down, torturing and executing of Satan worshipers.

*   1486-1487: Institoris (Heinrich Kraemer) and Jacob Sprenger published the Malleus Maleficarum (The Witches' Hammer). It is a fascinating study of the authors' misogyny and sexual frustration. It describes the activities of Witches, the methods of extracting confessions. It was later abandoned by the Church, but became the "bible" of those secular courts which tried Witches.

*   1500: During the 14th century, there had been known 38 trials against Witches and sorcerers in England, 95 in France and 80 in Germany. 4  The witch hunts accelerated. "By choosing to give their souls over to the devil witches had committed crimes against man and against God. The gravity of this double crime classified witchcraft as crimen exceptum, and allowed for the suspension of normal rules of evidence in order to punish the guilty." 7 Children's testimony was accepted. Essentially unlimited torture was applied to obtain confessions. The flimsiest circumstantial evidence was accepted as proof of guilt.

*   1517: Martin Luther is commonly believed to have nailed his 95 theses on the cathedral door at Wittenburg, Germany. Apparently it never happened; he published his arguments in a less dramatic way. This triggered the Protestant Reformation. In Roman Catholic countries, the courts continue to burn witches. In Protestant lands, they were mainly hung. Some Protestant countries did not allow torture. In England, this lack of torture led to a low conviction rate of only 19%. 4

*   Circa 1550 to 1650 CE: Trials and executions reached a peak during these ten decades, which are often referred to as the "burning times." They were mostly concentrated in eastern France, Germany and Switzerland. Witch persecutions often occurred in areas where Catholics and Protestants were fighting. Contrary to public opinion, suspected witches -- particularly those involved in evil sorcery -- were mainly tried by secular courts. A minority were charged by church authorities; these were often cases involving the use of healing magic or midwifery. 1

*   1563: Johann Weyer (b. 1515) published a book which was critical of the Witch trials. Called "De Praestigiis Daemonum" (Shipwreck of souls), it argued that Witches did not really exist, but that Satan promoted the belief that they did. He rejected confessions obtained through torture as worthless. He recommended medical treatment instead of torture and execution. By publishing the book anonymously, he escaped the stake. 8

*   1580: Jean Bodin wrote "De la Demonomanie des Sorciers" (Of the punishments deserved by Witches). He stated that the punishment of Witches was required, both for the security of the state and to appease the wrath of God. No accused Witch should be set free if there is even a scrap of evidence that she might be guilty. If prosecutors waited for solid evidence, he felt that not one Witch in a million would be punished.

*   1584: Reginald Scot published a book that was ahead of its time. In Discoverie of Witchcraft, he claimed that supernatural powers did not exist. Thus, there were no Witches.

*   1608: Francesco Maria Guazzo published the "Compendium Maleficarum." It discusses Witches' pacts with Satan, the magic that Witches use to harm others, etc.

*   circa 1609: A witch panic hit the Basque areas of Spain. La Suprema, the governing body of the Inquisition, recognized it as a hoax and issued an Edict of Silence which prohibited discussion of witchcraft. The panic quickly died down.

*   1610: Execution of Witches in the Netherlands ceased, probably because of Weyer's 1563 book.

*   1616:  A second witch craze broke out in Vizcaya. Again an Edict of Silence was issued by the Inquisition. But the king overturned the Edict and 300 accused witches were burned alive.

*   1631: Friedrich Spee von Langenfield, a Jesuit priest, wrote "Cautio criminalis" (Circumspection in Criminal Cases). He condemned the witch hunts and persecution in Wurzburg, Germany. He wrote that the accused confessed only because they were the victims of sadistic tortures.

*   1684: The last accused Witch was executed in England.

*   1690's: Nearly 25 people died during the witch craze in Salem, MA: one was pressed to death with weights because he wouldn't enter a plea; some died in prison, the rest were hanged. 5 There were other trials and executions throughout New England.

*   1745: France stopped the execution of Witches.

*   1775: Germany stopped the execution of Witches.

*   1782: Switzerland stopped the execution of Witches.

*   1792: Poland executed the last person in Europe who had been tried and convicted of Witchcraft. A few isolated extra-legal lynchings of Witches continued in Europe and North America into the 20th century.

*   1830's: The church ceased the execution of Witches in South America.

*   1980: Dr. Lawrence Pazder (1936 - 2004) and Michelle Smith wrote "Michelle Remembers." The concept of humans in league with Satan, which had been largely dormant for decades, was revived. Although the book has been shown to be a work of fiction, it is presented as factual, based on Michelle's recovered memories. 6 This book was largely responsible for triggering a new Witch/Satanist/Satanic Ritual Abuse (SRA) panic in the U.S. and Canada.

*   1980 to 1995: Two types of trials were held in North America, which repeated many of the same features of earlier Witch trials:

*   Staff at some pre-schools, day care facilities and Sunday schools were accused of ritual abuse of children. Evidence was based on faulty medical diagnoses and memories of non-existent abuse implanted in the minds of very young children.

*   Tens of thousands of adults, victimized by Recovered Memory Therapy, developed false memories of having been abused during childhood. In about 17% of the cases, these memories escalated to recollections of Satanic Ritual Abuse. Hundreds of parents were charged with criminal acts. Almost all of them were innocent. Most of the charges involved acts that never actually happened.

Sanity has since prevailed. Most of the accused have been released from jail. Those held in the state of Massachusetts were among the last to be released.

*   1990's: Some conservative Christian pastors continue to link two unrelated belief systems:
*   The imaginary religion of Satan-worshiping Witches promoted by the Church during the Renaissance, and

*   Wicca and other Neopagan religions which are nature-based faiths and which do not recognize the existence of the Christian devil.

*   1994 to 1996: Several hundred people were accused of witchcraft in the Northern Province of South Africa, and were lynched by frightened mobs. 8

*   1999: Conservative Christian pastors occasionally call for a renewal of the burning times, to exterminate Wiccans and other Neopagans. One example shows the intensity of misinformation and hatred that fear of Witches can continue to generate in modern times. In 1999-AUG, Rev. Jack Harvey, pastor of Tabernacle Independent Baptist Church in Killeen, TX allegedly arranged for at least one member of his church to carry a handgun during religious services, "in case a warlock tries to grab one of our kids...I've heard they drink blood, eat babies. They have fires, they probably cook them..." During speeches which preceded his church's demonstration against Wiccans, Rev. Harvey allegedly stated that the U.S. Army should napalm Witches. One of the Christian's signs read "Witchcraft is an abomination" on one side and "Burn the witches off Ft. Hood" on the other. 9 (Ft. Hood is a large army base near Killeen TX. A Wiccan faith group is active there.)

*   21st Century: Due to a number of factors, including:

The collapse of the Satanic Ritual Abuse hoax of the 1980's to 1995.
The broadcast of many accurate TV documentaries about Wicca and other Neopagan religions.
Many Wiccans going public with their religious faith
the fear of Witches, Wiccans and other Neopagans has largely evaporated.
______________________________________________

So I guess it's safe to say, Kristin may want to stay as far away from Lady Aashild as possible.   :o   :o


“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #345 on: May 24, 2015, 05:21:14 AM »
Yes, what you shared was exactly my understanding since childhood of the churches pronouncements on witch practice, so it was unexpected information to find that we had incorporated some of these magical objects and practices.  Makes sense, just never put it together that many of the practices before Christianity became part of the traditional Christian practices. I am thinking how we learned in high school, the Christmas tree and eggs at Easter as well as the hare, angles and religious medals were part of our ancient traditions before the acceptance of one God so, to learn there was Pope who gathered and put a book of this information together was new information.

The first Pope Honorius we read was excommunicated but not because of witchcraft. He was caught in the time when folks were arguing if Jesus was both God and Man. He supported and issued a decree based on Monothelitism, teaching that Christ has only one will, the divine will, in contrast with the teaching but not yet, dogma that Jesus has both a divine will and a human will.

The Pope Honorius III wrote several books including this book of Grimoire based on the teachings of King Solomon - some web sites say supposedly and others are more definite -

As high school students learning so much of our traditions around holidays are based in ancient ways, we always tossed it off as an extension of man's growth in spiritual understanding.  Seeing the film from BBS and learning how the belief systems before Christianity were filled with a system of revenge in addition, seeing news specials today, learning this system of revenge is a factor among those cultures that had not yet experienced modernity, it reminds me of our special blessing living today in the western world. We are so lucky to live where generations of Judaism and Christianity helped form our values and we have the security of living with a humane and loving system to guide our lives.

I am reminded as we read this book, making me even more grateful, that much of this story that allows us to learn the struggle by those who lived 700 years ago is not our struggle. Some of these folks were given the grace to adopt the Christian values of the day, regardless the Christian values in the north were not fully formed. Erlend's brother, Gunnulf is the example of someone who received his education and training where the 'Roman' Church was ingrained into the culture (Paris and Italy) compared to others, like Erlend who are caught between two worlds. They still live surrounded by the culture, the family traditions including the old buildings designed in a pre-Christian floor plan that upheld the old ways without the unanimous support for the old. And even those who profess and live a life in the Christian traditions use the help of those who know the old ways - like when Lady Aashild, a declared witch-wife, is sent for to help Uvhild.

Much of this is confusing because if Lady Aashild and her use of herbs and potions is typical of being a witch-wife - why, when we know folks like Hildegarde Began from an earlier century grew herbs and made potions in her Abby. As most of us, I am not familiar with these old ways. I do not think learning about them or about those who gathered the information that will help us understand better this book is swaying how we practice our faith but it does help to see the growth pattern within the Christian Church.

Today, the Christian Church in Norway is 75% to 80% Protestant and so along the way there were practices of these now old Catholic ways that did not satisfy the people either. This book does not point us to look into how that change happened or how the people adapted but does show us both the old Nordic ways and the Christian values, which in the 14th century was the Norwegian's adaptation of the Catholic Church.

We learned in the first book that the priests were still either marrying or if not married were having children - we know at this time in history in Rome the Popes were having children but then it was not till mid nineteenth century that a Pope had to be a priest. And, we also know that since Constantine, in order to preserve the appearance of unity the church labeled groups with a different viewpoint heretics with some individuals and groups labeled heretics for political and economic reasons.

This book does give us a window into how the church developed. We can compare the growth in Rome, the center of the church's governing body, to the church as practiced in these lands recently converted.  This journey of discovering how the church straddled the old ways, we are fortunate to read about in the Sagas and our good fortune is we have Undset who writes her story using the concepts of the Sagas. This historical struggle is the development of the church in new lands, as compared to more established but, also growing church within the Holy Roman Empire, like France.

Most of what is available to us and what we learn today is the history of the church centered in Rome.  We seldom read or know about the straddling that took place as each area of the globe converted. I do not think it is one or the other - it is history. Some history is seldom shared today as many Pastors and Bishops focus on the pastoral view of the church and have not encouraged learning the governing and political side of the church. And so, when we read for instance of the recent struggle the US nuns have with the Curia we are not aware of the history that goes back before Vatican II. We only read about the highlights of their struggle.

These struggles have been part of the history of this church. I found learning this history endeared the church to me as a living gospel if you would, rather than a static accepted Icon of right and wrong.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #346 on: May 24, 2015, 09:17:25 AM »
Barb,  
Quote
We are so lucky to live where generations of Judaism and Christianity helped form our values and we have the security of living with a humane and loving system to guide our lives.


I'm not so sure today we do have the security you speak of, or the loving, humane system.  Christians are being slaughtered, and it seems little to nothing is being done to stop this.  Our government and people seem to take the attitude, it is not our war to get into with ISIS, but in truth, it is every Christian nation's war to fight.

Quote
Today, the Christian Church in Norway is 75% to 80% Protestant and so along the way there were practices of these now old Catholic ways that did not satisfy the people either.

A new struggle we are now facing is, Ireland’s same-sex marriage referendum, and the priests are taking a stance of silence;
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/same-sex-marriage-northern-ireland-last-bastion-of-discrimination-says-amnesty-1.2223988

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholic-priests-group-won-t-take-stance-on-referendum-1.2151414

Speaking of changes, as a Catholic, I never thought I would see the day I would be reading this:

According to Amnesty’s Northern Ireland programme director Patrick Corrigan: “This historic result will echo around the world - it shows how a once socially-conservative country can transform itself into a beacon of equality.  

I see it as a direct conflict in the Catechesis teaching:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7LQc3aXgU4

I found this a little dated 2011, but still interesting:



The world is changing, as it did back in the centuries before us, as it will continue to, we will see more and more government involvement in the changes in religions.  Is it time for changes in the Catholic teachings?  If the people refuse to accept it, and choose to leave the church because the church does not conform to their new lifestyles and beliefs, does this force the Catholic church and other religions to make changes?  Where does this fall in with God's commandments and laws?

I really do appreciate Undset's insights in this story with witchcraft, religion and saga.  It seems a perfect time for us to be reading this story.  

Barb, as usual, all great points in your post.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #347 on: May 24, 2015, 01:57:22 PM »
Wow, that's a lot of theological history.I'll have to digest it a bit.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #348 on: May 24, 2015, 02:21:51 PM »
I think Pat, Undset does such a great job of drawing you in that it is too easy to have buttons mashed rather than stepping back and viewing the story and so reading how our protagonist is caught between two worlds and not wholly accepting the one closer to our way of life today is unsettling - seldom do we read anything any longer that is showing us ambiguity - a black and white world is so much easier to deal with but when you think on it most of us and most national and religious figures from the past were filled with ambiguity. Its a challenge to be comfortable with the dubious choices these characters are making so that knowing who to trust in the story we turn to the rules and regs as we know them.

Well I need to get busy again with my pickax - need to deepen the channel that runs along the front of the house so the water coming down the incline of my driveway from the street does not go straight into my garage and flood my house - lots of evacuations and bad flooding all around me but so far being as high as I am on the Mesa I am doing OK. One good thing out of this is in weeks the Lakes come from being 38% full to now 65% full.  
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #349 on: May 24, 2015, 02:33:08 PM »
Bellamarie, how could I have left Lavrans out of the list of Kristin's teachers?  He has taught Kristin by the best possible way, by example as well as words.  She followed him around everywhere, and took in everything she saw.  This has certainly helped her tremendously.

We learn a lot about Erlend in this section.  I was particularly struck by one thing Gunnulf said (p357 in Nunnally) "It was never easy for Erlend to know what was right.  Ever since we were children, our mother thought whatever Erlend did was right, and our father thought it was wrong."  No wonder he has to wing it.

Then we have Kristin's horrific childbirth experience, and we learn a bit more from his reaction.

Erlend goes to Jørundgaard to bring the news.  On arriving, "...the peace of the place made an oddly deep impression on Erlend." (p374).  Why?  It's not even what I would call peaceful--he's in a courtyard surrounded by goats, with the children running around and the dogs barking loudly at him.

Lavrans starts to get to know his son-in-law better, and starts to like him.  It's kind of funny.  At first (p 377)  "Finally he prayed for the strength to tolerate Erlend Nikulaussøn with a patient spirit so long as he was forced to have his son-in-law there on his estate."  Then they ski back to Husaby together, and Lavrans comes to like Erlend.  (p378) "He had prayed to God to grant him patience with this man, his daughter's husband.  Now he was almost angry with himself because he was more fond of Erlend than he wanted to be."

What qualities is he seeing in Erlend?  Can you imagine a way of life in which Erlend could use his good qualities and become a better man?  Has your own opinion of Erlend changed in this section?

PatH

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #350 on: May 24, 2015, 02:35:44 PM »
Barb, I was writing while you were posting.  I was wondering about you this morning.  Glad you haven't washed away yet.

bellamarie

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #351 on: May 24, 2015, 03:19:48 PM »
Oh dear Barb, be careful with that pickax!   Good luck with not flooding.

PatH., It's funny you ask, 
Quote
"Has your own opinions changed of Erlend in this section?"

I felt like Lavrans, I was trying very hard NOT to let my opinions change toward Erlend.  Then by the very end of the journey on skis, I was finding myself maybe softening a bit, but ONLY because Lavrans was.  I'm still not there yet.  Erlend does have a knack to draw others in, but I will give him credit for going and getting Lavrans. 

What a horrible experience Kristin had in her childbirthing.   I was not sure what exactly this meant:

pg. 344  He laid the boy in his mother's arms.  Sick with tenderness and joy, she rubbed her face against the little glimpse of red silky-soft face within the linen cloths.  She looked up at Erlend.  She knew that once before she had seen him with a grey, ravaged face like this__she could not remember when, she was so strange and dizzy in the head__but she knew that it was well that she need not remember. 

Does this lead us to believe Erlend will not bond with this son of his?  He finally holds Naakkve, and says:  "You have not greeted your son yet, Erlend, or taken him in your arms," she said angrily.  Erlend lifted the babe out of its mother's arms, and laid his face against it for a moment.   "I doubt I shall scarce come to like you from my heart, Naakkve, till I have forgotten that you tormented your mother so cruelly," he said, and laid the boy down again by Kristin."

Erlend has already had two children born by Eline, it is not as if he did not know what a woman goes through in childbirth.  I am suspecting that Erlend may be jealous of the love Kristin has for their son.  He was close to his mother, so he does know what kind of a bond that can become.  His father was not close to him as he points out to Gunnulf in their conversation later.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #352 on: May 24, 2015, 06:49:54 PM »
Quote
Erlend has already had two children born by Eline, it is not as if he did not know what a woman goes through in childbirth.
He might not.  He has already told Kristin that he wasn't there when Orm was born, he was on guard duty.  He came back in the morning to have his son placed in his arms, and that was when he swore to Eline that he would marry her.  We aren't told whether he was around for Margret's birth.  Kristin's experience sounds pretty horrendous, even for that time, in going on for several days.  She and Naakve were both fighting pretty hard for their lives.

Will Erlend bond to Naakve?  He could very well.  He has bonded to Orm, his son by Eline.  It's interesting that Kristin is also fond of Orm, and doesn't hold his origin against him.

bellamarie

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #353 on: May 25, 2015, 10:22:29 AM »
Erlend seems ready to favor his son Orm, by this statement he makes to Kristin when they have this discussion:

pg.296  "You may believe, my Erlend, that small joy was mine last summer, when first I grew ware of this.  And yet methought__me__thought if you should die and leave me before we were wedded, I had liefer you left me with a child of yours than all alone.  And I thought, if I should die in bearing you a child__"twould be better than that you should have no true-born son to mount into the high-seat in your place when you have to part from this earthly home."

Erlend answered hotly:  "For me, I would deem my son all too dear bought if he should cost you your life.  Speak not so, Kristin. . . So dear to me Husaby is not,"  he said in a while.  "And least of all since I have been sure that Orm can never inherit after me__"  "Care you more for her son than for mine?"  asked Kristin then.  "Your son__" Erlend laughed a little.  "Of him, see you, I know but this, that he comes hither a half-year or so too soon.  Orm I have loved for twelve years__"


Kristin did seem to bond with Orm, when he came for a visit, but I got a strange sense Orm knew so much more and did not exactly bond as much with her.  He did everything he should, but he did make a few remarks about his mother Eline, which gave me pause as if if he may have resentments hidden inside for Kristin.

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #354 on: May 25, 2015, 07:43:17 PM »
Orm is bringing a lot of baggage into this situation; it's hardly surprising that he might be cautious.  But at least his stepmother is accepting and likes him.

Now Lavrans has spent some time at Husaby, helping with the farm, and never saying an unkind word to Kristin.  She has recovered from childbirth, Naakve is healthy, and it's time for her penance.  So she has to walk barefoot to Nidaros, unaccompanied, to receive absolution from the archbishop, and to give the golden crown she dishonored to the church as penance.

Several things struck me.  One is that although Erlend did an elaborate penance for the events connected with Eline's death, that was before his further sin of sleeping with his betrothed and conceiving a child before marriage, and he doesn't seem to have had to do any penance for that, while Kristin has to atone for that as well as Eline, and the crown she has to give up isn't even hers, it's the family heirloom.  Double standard?

Another thing--it seems to be regarded as acceptable that Kristin should walk alone, 20 miles through countryside that's not familiar to her, carrying a priceless golden crown.  She comes to no harm,  but she would have been easy prey to anyone riding by.

But she makes it, and after much prayer and soul-searching, gives  the crown.  That night, she sees a vision of Brother Edvin.  This isn't surprising, but what does it mean that he takes an old leather glove and hangs it on a moonbeam?

bellamarie

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #355 on: May 25, 2015, 09:30:37 PM »
I was questioning the safety for Kristin and her baby on that journey to Nidaros, as well.  And good point about Erlend not needing to do penance for having sex with Kristin before he wed her.  How ironic, she would just happen to run into Simon on her way.  Maybe they will deal with Erlend's sins in the future. 

I need to go back and re read that dream again, not sure what to make of the old glove on a moonbeam.

Are we ready to move on to the next part? 

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #356 on: May 26, 2015, 10:21:14 AM »
Quote
Are we ready to move on to the next part?


Yes.  We don't have much left to say about this section.  I know you, I, and StellaMaris are caught up.  JoanK?  Halcyon?  Barb, have you been washed away?

Let's read the first 3 chapters of Part II, Husaby now, and quickly add the remaining 4 in just a few days.  Is that a good speed, everyone?  We can do whatever you want.

PatH

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #357 on: May 26, 2015, 11:24:55 AM »
Unfortunately, Chapter 1 is mostly Norwegian politics.  I found this aspect of the book rather underwhelming the last time I read it.  If you find it boring, skim.  There will be more later, interwoven with the personal story of Kristin and Erlend, and we can't ignore it completely, but we can put as much or as little emphasis on it as you want.

bellamarie

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #358 on: May 26, 2015, 11:49:59 AM »
I do have to mention before we leave this section, that when I read Kristin's journey to Nidaros, it reminded me of Moses leading the people to the promise land, where they would have renewed hope.

pg. 371  Kristin stood on Feginsbreakka and saw the city lying below her in ht golden sunlight.  Beyond the river's broad shining curves lay brown houses with green turfed roofs, dark domes of leaves in the gardens, light-hued stone houses with pointed gables, churches that heaved up black shingled backs, and churches with dully gleaming leaden roofs.  But above the green land, above the fair city, rose Christ's Church, so mighty, so gloriously shining, 'twas as though all things else lay prostrate at its feet.  With the evening sun blazing full upon its breast and on the shining glass of its window, with towers and giddy spires and golden vanes, it stood pointing up into the bright summer heavens.

Quite overcome, sobbing, the young woman flung herself down before the cross by the wayside, where thousands of pilgrims had lain before her, thanking God for that helping hands were stretched out towards human souls on their journey through this fair and perilous world.


The bells were ringing to Vespers in churches  and cloisters when Kristin came into the Christ's churchyard.  She dared to glance for a moment up at the church's west from__then, blinded, she cast down her eyes.  Human beings had never compasses this work of their own strength__God's spirit had worked in holy Oistein, and the builders of this house that came after him.  Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven__now she understood the words.  A reflection of the glory of God's kingdom witnessed in these stones that His will was all that was fair.  Kristin trembled.  Aye, well might God turn in wrath from all that was foul__from sin and shame and uncleanness.

Deuteronomy 34:1

Then Moses climbed Mount Nebo from the plains of Moab to the top of Pisgah, across from Jericho. There the LORD showed him the whole land--from Gilead to Dan,

Then I found this commentary that I felt fit perfectly with Kristin viewing the city below:

this view Moses had of the good land a little before his death may be an emblem of that sight believers have, by faith, of the heavenly glory, and which sometimes is the clearest when near to death; this sight they have not in the plains of Moab, in the low estate of nature, but in an exalted state of grace, upon and from off the rock of Christ, in the mountain of the church of God, the word and ordinances being often the means of it; it is a sight by faith, and is of the Lord, which he gives, strengthens, and increases, and sometimes grants more fully a little before death.
http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/34-1.htm

PatH., I did find this regarding Erlend also should be absolved:  pg. 375 The young priest says to Kristin:  

At first he scarce understood.  She brought out the golden garland and held it toward him.  "Oh, are you Kristin Lavransdatter, Erlend's wife, of Husaby__"  He looked at her with a little wonder; her face was all swollen with weeping.  "Aye, aye, your brother-in-law, Master Gunnulf, spoke of this, aye__"  

"Your husband should be with you too, I trow, rightly.  But it may be Gunnulf has some letter from him . . .


Seems like once again, others are cleaning up Erlend's messes, rather than he coming himself.

In my book Kristin's vision of Brother Edvin, says:

He smiled, and his smile was unspeakably tender__a little roguishly merry, just as when he lived on earth.  Kristin wondered not at all.  "Humble, happy full of hope and trust, she looked at him, awaiting that which he might say or do.  The monk laughed and held up an old, heavy fur mitten towards her__then he hung it on the moonbeam and left it hanging there.  And then he smiled still more, nodded to her, and melted away.

This reminded me of the song, "Swinging on a Star" 
Would you like to swing on a star?
Carry moonbeams home in a jar?
And be better off than you are?
Or would you rather be a mule?


Of course it was not even known back in the 14th century.  But it's a parody, meaning you are better off than something else. 

I felt Brother Edvin seems to be happy with Kristin coming for absolution, and shows her there is new hope for her, and her baby.  Kristin seems happy and at peace at this moment.

Okay, I am ready to move on to the first three chapters of Part II.  Thanks for the heads up of this part being a bit underwhelming.  I'll muddle through it. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #359 on: May 26, 2015, 03:29:34 PM »
I'm fine but lots to do - water in my garage - ah so - Son just trying to get to work sites in Houston much less even start the cleanup and then start all over - the Blanco surged at 32 feet in the 1981 flood and last they had was it had reached 44 feet and the surge took all the meters so they have no idea - it was over I-35 which is really high off the river - where I am the work done on Shoal Creek held so it held the rising rush till further down and actually broke through the retaining walls gushing right on down to Lady Bird Lake - the water coming off the Mesa in the school yards across the street from me left debris half way up the chain link fence on 'top' of the hill and of course the water engulfed the fence at the bottom - except for testing I bet most of the classes would be empty - they have closed schools or opened them late in all the surrounding school districts.

Well - enough - I will catch up - need a day or so - and yes, I was getting more and more upset reading how Kristin took on the guilt and brunt of man made decisions about sex tied to when a ceremony takes place that only assured the protective transfer of wealth and title - the ceremony was still not yet even offering any blessings to a couple, it was only during the council of Trent in 1547 that marriage was  made a sacrament so all of this heaped on women - grrrrr - Erlend was right - he paid their dues - and his brother - wow - not so gentle is he compared Brother Edvin or a few others who show a kindness we prefer to associate with the clergy - well onward - started this next section last night before the electricity went out - sounded to me like it was a case of using a political issue to show the skills, strengths and alliances they each bring that is setting up the dynamics for the future.  

Ok for now my political decision is where to get rid of my water soaked boxes that were on the floor of the garage - some filled with stuff for the Good Will and others with years of records that I planned on burning - waterlogged now - maybe just wait but then I am afraid the mildew would be rampant and there goes my allergies - and the grass - looks like I need a tractor to mow it.  
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe