Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online

[bellamarie]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week  1: (pp-112)

1. Sisyphus!   Sillybos! Persephone!  Demeter!  Hades!  Dionysus! Parthenope!  Sirens! Minerva Tyrrhena!  Cybele! Harpy! And many more!   The first 112 pages are a rich riot of classical allusion.  What reference in the first 112 pages would you like to know more about? Choose one which interested you and bring an explanation of it here so we can all learn.

2.   "Many are the narthex bearers but few the Bacchoi." (page 76 ) What does this mean? Why is it repeated?

3.   What effect does the First Person Narration of the protagonist Sophie  and her point of view have on the reader?  Do you think this narrator so far is  reliable? Why or why not?

4.   Both Sophie and Agnes seem to feel guilty about things or overly responsible for events.  Why?

5.   Do you understand the tetraktys? What do 3, 4 and 5 have to do with the triangle of 10 dots (page 29)?   Does anyone know anything about  Pythagoras or Pythagorean theory?  What does the word tetraktys itself mean?

6. What are the some of the  main conflicts in this first section?

7. Do you have any personal knowledge or do you know of anybody who has been involved  with a modern cult? What do you think the appeal of the modern cult is?

8.  Why did Sophie not want to go to Capri? Why did she go?  Given her rough start, what would you say the prospects are for a successful time?

9.   How many contrasts are there in this section and how are they variously presented? What is their effect? Were there any instances of  imagery you particularly liked?

10. We have  a lot going on here in this carefully crafted first section: how  many parallels so far can you identify? (let's keep a list)

11.  What foreshadowing did you notice  in these first 112 pages? Was the shooting a surprise to you?   Do you think the phone call was from  Ely? What if she had picked it up on the 2nd ring?

12.  What one thing did you most like about the first 112 pages?

13. What are some of the emerging themes of this first section?[/b]


-------------1. death (and the possibility of rebirth?)-- the shootings         (Deems)

-------------2. being buried alive (Deems)

-------------3. suffocation--Sophie's lungs, the nuns cells (Deems)

-------------4. a descent into the underworld (Deems)

--------------5. drowning (ginny)

Schedule Chapters 1-9 for  June 1 - 7 Chapters 10-16 for June 8 - 14 Chapters 17-24 for June 15 - 22 Chapters 25-End for  June 23 - 30

---

Interesting Links NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 Carol Goodman Homepage The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) Cult  (submitted by Marcie) Real or Fictional ? Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants

In the first week of June, Week I  we will not talk about anything other than what is contained in  the first 112 pages. If your question  may pertain to what comes later on, we'll ask you to hold that particular one  for the end, so as not to spoil it for the rest.

Discussion Leaders: Andrea & Ginny

Roman books as  papyrus rolls on shelves with the sillybos on the end.
  A lost Roman funerary relief from Neumagen, Germany.
Thanks to Dr. Sider for locating this for us.



New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!

QUESTIONS FOR CAROL

I was having some issues with my computer last night while trying to post so I will try to highlight some of the interesting parts of Ovid's Metamorphoses.

First off...."Ovid seems to have believed in art for pleasure's sake, having no ethical agenda for his writings"

I think this backs up my idea that the men used women in their art for their own self satisfaction.  The men so far in the first 112 pages seem to use women more as objects for their sexual pleasures.

This is interesting..."The Art of Love (advice on how to seduce a woman; scandalous in Augustus' time, one possible reason for Ovid's banishment in 8 AD), the Fasti (a poetic calendar of religious festivals). Ovid offered something of an apology for his immoral reputation (Tristia 2:354): "My life is respectable, my Muse is full of jesting. A book is not evidence of one's soul."

What do all of you think of that statement?  I think, in some way your work has to represent the person you are, although I think if an author wants to use the shock value in his writings, then possibly it has not much to do with his soul more so his creativeness.  

This sort of reminds me of today when comics, musicians, etc.  are allowed to make such racial, insulting and vulgar comments and be excused because it is considered art, comedy or entertainment.  Where does an artist, writer, actor or comedian become accountable for mistreatment of others, all in the name of art, creativeness or entertainment?  

"Ovid continually surprises us, as we never know where he's going next. He changes strategies using several techniques:
   He follows the same character through different adventures (Perseus, Hercules).
   He tells a story within a story: to put Argus to sleep, Mercury tells another story, becoming an internal narrator within Ovid's story.
   He "slides" from the story of one character to that of a relative or friend (Epaphus and Phaethon, end of book 1).
   He even will note the absence of a character in one tale as an introduction to a new story"

I see this throughout these first 112 pages, especially with Sophie.  Although, Ely is also jumping all around from story to story too.

"Following this outline, we see a general movement from gods acting like humans (section I), to humans suffering at the hands of gods (II), to humans suffering at the hands of humans (III), to humans becoming gods (IV)."  

After reading this particular paragraph, it made sense to me why I am not so sure if any person in the book is real.  I see them changing from humans to gods and vice versa.

And lastly, this strengthens my thoughts on "forbidden love."

"Each section prepares the reader for future sections: the tales of the Minyads (section II, book 4) foreshadow the thwarted or forbidden loves in section III"

So, I guess after depicting Ovid's Metamorphoses I have to ask Carol the author..... Did you use these writing styles and techiques?  Was Ovid your inspiration for this book?  Is "forbidden love" your theme along with women being freed from the hands of men?[/color]

I can't wait to hear all your thoughts.  Sorry this was lengthy, I was in fits last night trying to put this all together, and after many attempts, my computer just was not cooperating.  Went back to old Nellie this morning.  Tried and true.

Ciao for now.......

[Gumtree]

Gosh! - I went to bed - had a busy day and then came in to find so many posts it will take me all night to read them.  

Athena 's comments on the sillyboi led me to chase resources myself so here's link you might like to see - if you click on the example  it will take you to another example of sillyboi and if you click on the tiny picture it will enlarge...

sillyboi

And did you know that from the Greek word 'sillyboi' we get our word 'syllabus' . I think the Roman had another word for it from which we get 'title'


 
And yes, Bellamarie it's me, the Aussie tooth fairy - I wondered where you had gone - but I'm glad to say you seem to be in great form.

[ALF43]

Steph- Elgin's (or Professor Romeo, aptly named by Odette) project with the papyrus scrolls was funded by the PISA, the Pontificia Instituto Sacra Archeologia (whew that's a mouthful.)  Funding was granted on the grounds that one of the charred scrolls found in the villa might contain an early Christian document. He also found the Lyrik Foundation as a recent benefactor for the project.  Phineus was Elgin's specialty and finding another book would be a major breakthrough for Elgin.  When he found out that Gaius Petronius Stephanuses in Herculeneum was the original owner of this lost document he persuaded Sophie to go with the team.  He knew she was smitten with the story of Petronia Iusta, the slave owned by Gaius.

Agnes, to me, comes across as being childlike, protected and quite naive,  I don't feel much for or against her character other that the fact that Sophie feels the over whelming desire to protect her, this minister's daughter.

I love our narrator, I can relate to her.  She's stubborn, matter of fact and skeptical.

[ALF43]

Welcome JoanK- I hope that your difficulties with the computer have now come to an end.  Welcome to the Night Villa. 

 

" the introduction of zero was considered blasphemous by some, as it implied that the gods could allow nothing to exist. Apparantly, assigning mystic meanings to numbers was common for the Greeks (?) Was it also for the Romans?"

That would be an ideal question for our author to answer.

Eloise- bonjor.  I love it when you are in a book discussion, especially when you post in French.  I always try to read it (without peeking at the English), recite it and then laugh at myself when you translate the true meaning.
Thank you for the 13 knots rope that was used much earlier than our story takes place.

[Gumtree]

I meant to add that there is a lot of interesting material on the 'sillyboi' site - just look around...

[ALF43]

QUESTION FOR CAROL

Bellemarie- thanks for the information on Ovid's metamorphosis.  This whole novel is about metamorphosis; everything in transforming and changing, particularly our characters.  They each evolve into something we do not expect. 

Rebirth and transfiguration abounds.  Carol do you believe in Reincarnaation, I wonder?

Athena and Gumtree have given us comments and links to sillyboi that I must read.  I've been concentrating too much on the SILLY BOY, Elgin.

[Eloise]

This sort of reminds me of today when comics, musicians, etc.  are allowed to make such racial, insulting and vulgar comments and be excused because it is considered art, comedy or entertainment.  Where does an artist, writer, actor or comedian become accountable for mistreatment of others, all in the name of art, creativeness or entertainment

This is inticing thugs to acts of violence IMO. I see comic books for little tots full of violence and verbal abuse, comical they are not but they sell.

OK, I am trying to pinpoint the reason why I find Agnes more believable than Sophie but I can't quote everything, still this narration for me doesn't quite make Sophie believable:

"Not Agnes too. She hasn't gotten caught in his web. has she? Elgin Lawrence has a history of seducing his teaching assistants, and Agnes is just his type and not just because she's beautiful. He prays on young girls who are insecure."

Call me a prude, OK, but IMO a University Professor praying on a young, insecure teaching assistant could not be respectable, honest or competent unless I am very naïve and not modern enough. That is just one of the things that bother me about Sophie. She seems to think Oh! well what can you do, Elgin is a bit of a playboy, so what! Who is she kidding here?

When the narrator is both subjective and objective in the same sentence, that creates confusion.  She is trying to be objective but little things keeps cropping up subjectively like when Sophie becomes emotional. That is what is hard in First Person Narration, you have to choose between one and the other.

Hi! Carol, forgive my ranting,  I am going to concentrate on the story for now. That will take me to ITALY, a country that I absolutely love and I still fondly recall my visits over the years to Rome Venice, Naples, Florence and especially small towns near the French border.

[bellamarie]

Elois..."This is inticing thugs to acts of violence IMO. "

I agree,  I also have to ask...Why were men allowed to use women for centuries for objects of their sexual satisfaction?  Did it intice the mistreatment and disprespect for women throughout the ages?  The rape of Persephone, the enslaved Iusta, Sam and Dale Henry obsessing over Agnes, Ely turning to cult worship away from his wife Sophie, Elgin flaunting his flings with undergrads and students.  All examples of the mistreatment and disprespect for women.

Eloise....."That is just one of the things that bother me about Sophie. She seems to think Oh! well what can you do, Elgin is a bit of a playboy, so what! Who is she kidding here?"

I can't quite wrap myself around Sophie what so ever.  Nothing is logical about her.  Its as though the narrator shares Sophie's instincts with us, but then does not allow her to act upon them.  She lacks good judgement.  She's like the yen and yang. As for Agnes, she portrays the sterotyped daughter of a Baptist minister, helpless and beautiful.  Your typical Southern Belle. 

I'm afraid I am a bit too modern for these characters in this book.
Ciao for now.............

[ginny]

But we're also getting Sophie's thoughts. I am quite intrigued by this character, by all of them in fact.

THIS particularly from the bella's  Ovid material made me sit up:

3.   Transitional links: Ovid continually surprises us, as we never know where he's going next. He changes strategies using several techniques:

o   He follows the same character through different adventures (Perseus, Hercules).

o   He tells a story within a story: to put Argus to sleep, Mercury tells another story, becoming an internal narrator within Ovid's story.

o   He "slides" from the story of one character to that of a relative or friend (Epaphus and Phaethon, end of book 1)


These different types of links provide only a superficial continuity to the poem. A better way of viewing the artistic unity of the Metamorphoses considers Ovid's use of "theme with variations."

Actually isn't that what's happening here? Is it almost a description of what's here?

We...what is an "internal narrator?"

Is it somebody who articulates your inmost thoughts? I am not sure about everybody here but my own inmost thoughts are not what you'd call noble all the time? Nor particularly...uplifting.

What IS the connection in this book TO Ovid's Metamorphoses? OR the Pythagorean theory? Those of you capable of understanding the math or the mythological connection,  PLEASE when you see it, bring it up.

I agree there are a lot of ways we can go with this one. And a lot of ways it's going to go, with us or without us. hahahaa

But on the surface we've got a plot, we've got characters, (which one is the strongest so far?) we've got a trip to a dig (and a parallel recreated Villa Della Notte on Capri) to stay in, that alone would be a super book,  but then we've got this Pythagoras and his theories. And a cult about " tetraktys." I can't even SPELL that word!

So we have a LOT of mysterious elements here to sort of add to the story.



And NOW we MAY have numerology! I wouldn't have seen this, because I  know nothing about it. Would those of you who do understand these disparate elements keep chiming in as we go, because I do think that somehow all this IS necessary, the mythology and the Pythagorean theory, unlike other books.

I loved Andrea's the whole book is a metamorphosis! We need to watch and see if that proves true. It's certainly shape shifting.

Some new questions in the heading in blue but I'm interested for myself this morning to see how many conflicts there are in the first 112 pages. Keep in mind that normally a book discussion would not cover only the first quarter, it's a tribute TO the book that we can even do that, some of them don't work that way.

Here's one for you (you are doing SUCH a super job addressing each poster, Andrea and I appreciate it, SO much), what is in your own opinion the main conflict in these first 112 pages?

[ginny]

QUESTION FOR CAROL

Did you write the first section of this book first or did you add to it after you had finished to tie up the ends? I don't think you've missed a thread not mentioned in the first 112 pages. I am interested in the process.

[Ella Gibbons]

HI Ginny!  Wow!  It's enough to say that, what a lot to talk about in the book.

Carol, I am in awe of all that you have written; your knowledge of Greek legends, etc.  Amazing to be able to put it all together in a story wherein a mystery is developed.  In the first 112 pages we don't have the mystery defined yet, but enough of characterization that we know something will break apart soon.

I smiled at several references.  "No wonder I couldn't breathe in here; those nuns probably thought air was a worldly luxury."

On a group tour in Rome we stayed at a former nun's convent and our cells were as small as you have described in the book and it was not air conditioned either.  However our building was not on a busy street and we had a small balcony outside that overlooked roofs and buildings and was helpful in drying a bit of laundry from time to time.

I smiled again at your reference to Texas:  "I'm not an American, I'm a Texas, and I know from heat."

I'm having a visit for a couple of weeks or more with my sister from Maine and I may not be posting much; however, I did circle one reference to the Romans salting the soil of Carthage.  I looked that one up and found this:

"It is rumored that after the fall of Carthage, the Romans sowed salt into the soil in order to ensure that nothing would ever grow there again. However this detail is first mentioned by 20th-century historians and is not contained in any primary, contemporaneous sources.[1] Although it would have been feasible for the Romans to destroy the fertility of the soil in this manner, such an action would furthermore have hindered Rome's subsequent growth and development, which relied heavily on grain imported from North Africa. Indeed, the seizure of Carthage's grain fields for Rome's own use has been put forth as the primary reason Rome destroyed Carthage in the first place. Not only that, but salt was a highly prized commodity in the Ancient World, and it was unlikely that the Romans would have used it in such a wastefully destructive manner." (Wikipedia)

Interesting, isn't it?  Who really knows.

[Deems]

Count me in, folks.  I have the book on my Kindle and need some help with exactly how far we are to read this week, in terms of chapters.  Page numbers don't help when you have the Kindle edition.  I'm currently on Chapter 7, but I have no idea where that is in terms of pages.  HELP!!       

[marcie]

You are right, Deems. We should put Chapters in the heading instead of pages. People with the book may have different editions. My book ends Chapter 9 on page 112.

[ginny]

Ella, great point on ancient Carthage and the Romans.

I found this on the subject (not the salt tho):

...when they ended in 146 BC Carthage was utterly destroyed. Rome decreed that no house should be built no crop planted, but the site was colonized by Julius Caesar and Augustus and the colony became the capital of the enlarged province of Africa. By the second century
AC Carthage had become the largest city in the west after Rome. (Oxford Companion to Classical Literature)

so apparently it was not left to devastation after all.

DEEMS! Welcome, Professor. I thought of you the very second I wrote THEME, I could hear you screaming in the background, "THEME? THEME? In the first 112 pages,  Ginny?"

You  must have ESP!



For our Kindle users, the first 112 pages go thru Chapter 9. Whoops Marcie and I were posting together, I think that's a super idea on the chapters, Marcie, we'll fix  that now!

Welcome, Deems, how was President Obama's graduation address?

[winsummm]

why NIGHT villa? because it is a pleasure palace where activitiies take place which are best hiden by the darkness of night.  I don't think every roman household is set up for this. The painings, especialy the half hidden one on the partially exposed wall suggest that to me. The artist himself seems to be at first a saytre.

agnus is beautiful and smart  and naive but doesn't ring true to me. She is too anxious to please, over does it. a ministers daughter isn't enough to explain her. . . our narrater is also, but nothing like her personally.

The shooting and physical suffering of sophie seems to be gratuitous,   a theme for this writer, although I may be getting ahead of myself again. butI see it in her other books as well. She dwells on it to excess without its necessity  in advancing the plot or explaining the character.

  Her use of place and description, however, is beautiful, poetic, does more than set a scene but draws us in emotionally and keeps us there.

Claire

[ginny]

The shooting intrigues me, Claire, I have to admit. This may be one of those questions we need to keep looking at but you have the better position of having read many of Carol's books. I think there is a general rush on her books now, I've seen lots of comments, over the site, like I must get more of her books. Several of you have read lots of them. She's actually written TWO since this one, I don't know how she does it. I think it might be fun to ask about her schedule, I was really impressed when Wally Lamb told us his: it's WORK!

Somehow I think of writing a book (notice I have not written one!) as just somehow a wonderful flowing experience like Dickens and A Christmas Carol, but apparently according to Stephen King, it's NOT! I loved his book which Carol referenced On Writing where he says anybody, any person, who sits down to a computer and writes for 5 hours a day can write a book. I think he's too modest about his own talent.



I also agree with this  

Her use of place and description, however, is beautiful, poetic, does more than set a scene but draws us in emotionally and keeps us there.

I definitely agree.  What are some of the beautiful uses of place and description you all found? I got carried away with several of them, myself.

[JoanK]

I too have met the professors who sleep with (or tries to) his students. To me it is a clear abuse of power. Young students, perhaps away from home for the first time are looking for someone to look up to. Often they are meeting exciting new ideas for the first time, and they transfer the excitement of the message to the messanger. Even teaching in fat middle age, I would get guys hanging around my office with big eyes. To take advantage of that is criminal, IMO. Even though these students are technically adults, they are very young. But rarely is anything done about it. Everyone knows, and shrugs it off, as Sofie does, even though it's against University rules.

[Deems]

Obama's speech was good and well received, Ginny.  He seems to tailor each one to the audience.  I also heard the one he gave out west (memory failure on the school, but it was on the internet--anyway the one that didn't give him an honorary doctorate because his life achievements were still ahead of him) and they were completely different. 

Marcie--Thank you thank you.  Now I know how far to go!  Thank you too, Ginny.

An internal narrator takes over and tells another story in a story already being told.  Think of a play within a play and you have the idea.

[Deems]

Themes so far--

1. death (and the possibility of rebirth?)-- the shootings

2. being buried alive

3. suffocation--Sophie's lungs, the nuns cells

4. a descent into the underworld (see one above)

[winsummm]

another thought about time as well as place.

 I have to keep my personal judgements out of the way.
i.e. for example slaves as objects to be bought and sold and considering themselves as such.Business practices based on their value

  My old art history teacher considered OVID to be an unreliable source. He, Dr. Wight,  was oriented toward the Greeks where each character had some relationship to human emotional and characteristics. i.e. Zeus, a playboy or as we thought of him always f))king or fighting and his wife HERA suspicious and paranoid as she could likely have been under the curcumstances .
 My pet character was ephestus. the god of creation who gave hummans the right to think and question.  did I get that right? it's been a while.

and I did a term paper on IO who became a cow when Hera who was checking ;up on her errant husband arrived. Zeus had been  approaching her in her natural form, a beautiful wood nymph . . . reminds me of Agnus here.  by the way such an ugly name for a beautiful but asexual woman. that must mean something too.
Dr. wight considered Ovid to be vulgar. So keeping my  own personal judgements out of the way is important.

And Ely, obsessed with numbers, drawn into a cult where he could not talk for five years, when his prime attribute for Sophie was in sharing ideas.  The triangular dot patterns for pythagorus reminding me of a class in drafting where it was mentioned as a pythagorus triangel and RIGHT triangles, confused me because it showed an isoceles triangle with even angles.  So maybe I don't remember all that very well. it was some sixty years ago.   for this aging mind.

The sexual play was common to the Rome urban scene, but I wonder it it was so extensive in the arts which were for entertaiment . . . some thing like our soap operas on TV. And they didn't value the life force the way we do so violence was also entertaining. We mirror it with our sports. In Los Angeles the COLESIUM was used for sports as was the one in Rome. My personal view of contact sports is that they are a substitute for actual violence, still so much a part of the human psyche.

Claire

[Deems]

Claire--I noticed Agnes's name too and thought it an odd one for such a beautiful girl.  Perhaps a relationship to agnus--lamb?  She is an innocent lamb in this world of danger.  Don't get me going on names.  I always notice them.  One more--Sophie from sophia--wisdom? 

[Aliki]

I just saw the notice about this book yesterday and just got my pw reminder. I don't have the book yet but it seems there are golden nuggets of thought all through these 6 pages so will read the posts and pay quiet attention until I have the book in hand. Can't wait to actually hold the book!!

Aliki (a frequent and repeating Latin student of Ginny's)

[ginny]

HO!  Deems is doing THEMES? I don't  believe it and before she reconsiders, I'm putting them smack in the heading! What else? Drowning! I'll put that in too, what do the rest of you think?

Interesting that the President does different speeches, good for him. Thank you! The benefit of an articulate speaker. Who IS it, I can't remember, who had the super speech but he gave it everywhere, it ended something about "get him hairy hand?"  It's been a long time, too, Claire.

Joan K,  I never quite thought of it that way, thank you for that. Did you say you were interested in cults? Tell us more?

Claire, this is super: And Ely, obsessed with numbers, drawn into a cult where he could not talk for five years, when his prime attribute for Sophie was in sharing ideas.

 Oh HO, good for you! I missed that one, there's another contrast.

Aliki (Allie Mae) welcome! You'll love this one!

On the subject of erotica in ancient art, I will defer to Carol Who  Brought it Up!  hahahaa I do want to know where some of those are, the new ACL Newsletter just came and  THERE is Leda and the Swan, I had never seen it (and am not sure I want to now).

I do have an old joke tho, from about 50 years ago. One of my major professors told  this one, is it true: he swore it was. An Italian farmer found a sunken room when he was digging a bull pit. It was covered with all manner of art on the walls. I've forgotten how my professor happened to be there, he was on a sabbatical or something, but everybody was hysterically excited, phone calls were made, and they all descended on the farm the next morning, only to find the walls were covered in white paint  (white wash and lime) only. When asked what had happened, the farmer said he wasn't going to have  those "dirty pictures" on his property    hahahaaa

He swore  it was true. hahaha I THINK I have heard another version but he swore this was true.

Ok Deems.  HOW might this be done?

An internal narrator takes over and tells another story in a story already being told.  Think of a play within a play and you have the idea

.


An inner voice or? Are we seeing that in this book do you think? Is the internal narrator the thought processes of the person?

Can you give an example of a work (play within a play?) surely not...MacBeth or Hamlet or whatnot?

[ALF43]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and Carol might correct me but we spoke about Latin "names" and their true meanings in a couple of her other books.  Carol, who taught Latin, allowed her students to chose whatever name they wanted for themselves.

I don't know why I didn't have that in my transcript of our interview but I do remember her telling us that, Deems.  Names are important here and so are their meanings.  By-the-by- I am delighted to see you surfacing here in the Night Villa, my favorite Professor.

Another question that I asked Carol was about drowning, a theme that is prevelant in her other novels.  Carol admitted to having claustrophobia and fearful of not being able to breath.  Her statement was that she would NEVER do what her brave heroines do.

[Deems]

Hiya, Andy!  Good to be here.

Ginny--the answer is in what you wrote above-- "He tells a story within a story: to put Argus to sleep, Mercury tells another story, becoming an internal narrator within Ovid's story."

Ovid is telling the story of Argus who apparently can't sleep.  Then Mercury tells a story to put Argus to sleep.  Mercury is the internal narrator. 

Drowning is another theme.  Since we have so many of them, perhaps we should call them memes.

[ginny]

HO!! I sure am glad you showed up,  I thought for a minute Eloise was going to have to translate meme!

But never fear I looked it up at http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/meme

AND I found two completely indecipherable passages in English, so take that!

meme
/meem/ n. [coined by analogy with `gene', by Richard Dawkins] An idea considered as a replicator, esp. with the connotation that memes parasitize people into propagating them much as viruses do. Used esp. in the phrase `meme complex' denoting a group of mutually supporting memes that form an organized belief system, such as a religion. This lexicon is an (epidemiological) vector of the `hacker subculture' meme complex; each entry might be considered a meme. However, `meme' is often misused to mean `meme complex'. Use of the term connotes acceptance of the idea that in humans (and presumably other tool- and language-using sophonts) cultural evolution by selection of adaptive ideas has superseded biological evolution by selection of hereditary traits. Hackers find this idea congenial for tolerably obvious reasons.

This is the best one:

meme philosophy
/meem/ [By analogy with "gene"] Richard Dawkins's term for an idea considered as a replicator, especially with the connotation that memes parasitise people into propagating them much as viruses do.
Memes can be considered the unit of cultural evolution. Ideas can evolve in a way analogous to biological evolution. Some ideas survive better than others; ideas can mutate through, for example, misunderstandings; and two ideas can recombine to produce a new idea involving elements of each parent idea.
The term is used especially in the phrase "meme complex" denoting a group of mutually supporting memes that form an organised belief system, such as a religion. However, "meme" is often misused to mean "meme complex".
Use of the term connotes acceptance of the idea that in humans (and presumably other tool- and language-using sophonts) cultural evolution by selection of adaptive ideas has become more important than biological evolution by selection of hereditary traits. Hackers find this idea congenial for tolerably obvious reasons.
See also memetic algorithm.
[The Jargon File]
(1996-08-11)

HEY!! now we know. Am I the only one seeing algorithm in there? OH I do  believe I see "mutate" in there, too.

Right, language using sophonts, I agree totally.  (Twilight Zone music here, doo de dooo dooo). hahahaa

So translate that?  Do you mean that when Mercury another person or mythical charater, takes over and tells a story which Ovid was previously telling, it becomes...ah...it's Internal because it's another narrator!

WhOOP! Then we do have one coming, she says not to want to spoil...or maybe two? HO@ Good one bella for the Ovid bit and Deems.

Jury is still out on the meme since one cannot begin to figure out what they are saying above.

[ALF43]

OK, I'm so confused between Deems and Ginny, I think I'll go to sleep.

aliki- a big hearty welcome to you.  I too love to hold a book in hand but must admit my fascination with all of these new fangled gadgets, like the Kindle.  We will be here trying to solve this mystery when your book arrives.

[Eloise]

 Since we have so many of them, perhaps we should call them memes

Même chose in French is same thing. Même couleur, same color.

My brain is suffering from exhaustion. I will take a break visiting my sister for a couple of days and we will go to a library for a rest. 

[Deems]

Ginny--Yes, exactly.  What you said,--"So translate that?  Do you mean that when Mercury another person or mythical charater, takes over and tells a story which Ovid was previously telling, it becomes...ah...it's Internal because it's another narrator!"

I was just playing with meme.  Not to worry.  I do, however, like those definitions.  Wonder if meme has made it into the OED yet.

[bellamarie]

ginny...."And NOW we MAY have numerology! I wouldn't have seen this, because I  know nothing about it. Would those of you who do understand these disparate elements keep chiming in as we go, because I do think that somehow all this IS necessary, the mythology and the Pythagorean theory, unlike other books. "[/i]

I did some research this afternoon and found this.  I will give you the short version and feel free to go to the site and read it through.

As much as I can understand, Plato in his volume Timaeus, comes to a conclusion through his theory that .......The world soul, from which the human soul is eventually derived, is constructed by a series of odd and even integers beginning with 2 and 3, the first even and odd numbers, and proceeding through their square (4 and 9) and cubes (8 and 27).  (Recall that 1 does not count as a number, since in Greek the notion of number arithmos, implies plurality.)

It goes on to explain the entire theory and then concludes....This mathematical construction of the cosmic soul and body in the Timaeus represents a genuinely Pythagorean blend of number, theory, geometry, and musical harmony.  Astronomy, the fourth member of the Pythagorean quadrivium, is also included, since the world soul is cut into two strips corresponding to the celestial  equator and ecliptic (Timaeus 36b).  But Plato has reworked these Pythagorean elements (borrowed from Philolaus and Archytas) into a new world picture that is at once highly symbolic and mathematically precise.  Numerical ratios, geometric progressions, and regular solids represent the cosmic order as a systematic structure of rational harmony.  Furthermore, by portraying the mathematical order of nature as the work of a creator god, Plato becomes the precedent for modern mathematical theists like Kepler and Newton, who will claim that "God geometrizes," that geometry is the instrument by which God creates the world.   The Timaeus is the single most important text for the future of the Pythagorean tradition.

Also.....The first principle of all things is the monad.  Out of the monad arises the indefinite dyad as matter for the monad which is cause.  Out of the monad and indefinite dyad come the numbers, out of the numbers come the points, out of these the lines, from which (are formed) the plane figures; from the plane figures (are formed) the solid figures, from these the sensible bodies, whose elements are four: fire, water, earth, air....Out of the transformation of the elements comes to be an animate cosmos, intelligent, spherical, surrounding the earth as its center.  The earth in turn is spherical and inhabited all around.  There are people at the Antipodes (Literally "with their feet opposite our") and what is down for us is up for them.  (D. L. VIII.25 = DK 58B.1a)

Okay believe it or not I found all of the above by going to google and typing in.    "many are the narthex bearers but few the Bacchoi.

As for what I did find pertaining to the quote above..."The well known saying that seems to indicate that "to be taken by the god" is an event that will happen in an unforeseeable way, and probably only to a few special individuals.  There are mediumistic gifts that are beyond the reach of many.  Even the most common drug often identified with Dionysos, wine, is  not sufficient to induce true bakcheia: anyone can get drunk, but not all are bakchoi."

The Cardinal Doctrine of Orphism.   The whole gist of the matter may thus be summed up.  Orpheus took an ancient superstition deep-rooted in the savage ritual of Dionysos, and lent to it a new spiritual significance.  The old superstition and the new faith are both embodied in the little Orphic text that stands at the head of this chapter:   "Many are the wand-bearers, few are the Bocchoi"  Can we be sure that this is really an Orphic text or was it merely a current proverb of any and every religion and morality?  Plato says:  "Those who instituted rites of initiation for us said of old in a parable that the man who came to Hades uninitiated lay in mud, but that those who had been purified and initiated and then came thither dwell with the gods.  For those who are concerned with these rites say, They that bear the wand are many, the Bacchoi are few." 

You can read more at the site I have provided.

http://books.google.com/books?id=5vi10r5k5eEC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA53&ots=0Jg2jf33E8&dq=many+are+the+narthex+bearers,+but+few+the+bacchoi&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html

[JoanR]

Ginny, I notice that the definition of meme" in the quote comes from something called the "Jargon File". Hot Diggity now we don't have to worry our heads too much about it since "Jargon", as far as I know, is a bunch of words intended to confound and confuse us.  Suceeds, doesn't it?

I had read this far previously just for the pure pleasure of it.  I like  Carol Goodman's writing so much and have enjoyed 3 other of her books.  She is great on setting up the atmosphere and putting you right smack into the places she describes.
Now I have to go back over it for the "close reading".  There have been so many wonderful and informative posts so far!!  I'm loving it!
  You all aren't leaving me anything much to look up!

I find the mathematical bit so fascinating - had forgotten how much I liked geometry back in the  olden   days  so   satisfactory to come up with Q.E.D.

Something is going wrong with my keyboard I think I must have hit a wrong key for the wrong thing and I have to keep going back to fix spacing and words it wants to delete where I don't want to delete    Woe is me!

[bellamarie]

JoanR......[/color]"Something is going wrong with my keyboard I think I must have hit a wrong key for the wrong thing and I have to keep going back to fix spacing and words it wants to delete where I don't want to delete    Woe is me!"

I had the same problem last night and I thought it was a weak mouse battery since its wireless. I just bought a new computer with Vista and thought it was the program.  So now I am wondering if its a glitch with this site.

Anyone else have these problems??

[CarolGoodman]

Okay, Ginny sent me some of the questions you have posted and I thought the easiest thing to do would be to answer them all together here.  If I've missed any questions, Ginny, just send me a note with the post number and I'll go answer it (if I can!).

1. Many of us here have encountered some "Elgins" in our forays into Academia. Did you base him on any one person or an amalgam of several people? (or can't you answer that one?) Have you encountered an  Elgin along the way? Are they always in Classics or is it more widespread? Hahaha

I think I’d better take the fifth on that one.  Really, Elgin isn’t based on anyone in particular.

2. Are you the first person to make a cult of Tetratkys or is there one somewhere?

I’m not sure.  I don’t know of any “cult” called Tetraktys, but I do know that a number of new age groups (many completely benign) revere Pythagoras.  In fact, the inspiration for using Pythagoras in the book came from my husband Lee’s interest in him and the series of sonnets that Lee has written about Pythagoras (PYTHAGORAS IN LOVE by Lee Slonimsky, might as well get in that plug!). 

3. "flat on the stone floor so that I can see the tiles better." Carol what is this type of expression called? I know you teach writing, it's driving me crazy. It's very well done, what IS it? I looked up a bunch of literary definitions, is it   synaesthesia?  Or irony? Or what literary technique is it called? Obviously I don't have a clue, but I really love whatever it is.  (ginny)

I’m not sure either!  Sorry!
 
4. I was blown away with the use of imagery in these first 112 pages. The contrast between black and white is stark.  I first noticed it when Sophie was looking for Ely and "the wind picked up the fluffy white spores from the cottonwood trees."

The physician referred to xray by pointing to the ghostly white shape lurking beneath her rib cage.
What about M"Lou's eyes looking black in the picture with Sophie's mother?
   
or... mothers ego looked black! 
When she entered Ely's room she found it completely black ... one window covered with a black out shade, edges sealed with black electricial tape.  A reference to a cave, aha!  Is that what you are going for with this contrast black/white?
It took her 5 coats of white latex enamel paint to cover the walls.

Even the brightly colored modern paperbacks are all arrayed like sentinels against the dark.  (I loved that image.)

pg. 45 you mention the black/white image beginning with the cool white depths of the fridge.  There are references to dark bruises under Ely's eyes and sunlight, overhead lights (white)  Agnes's UT sweatshirt accentuates her pallor and the dark rings under her eyes.

Sophie sees Ely's writing as a letter glowing starkly white against the black and then each letters acquires a halo that flames red in the darkness.  Oh by the way, Carol, red is another bloody colored used often in this theme.

When Sophie first meets Gus, the cat, she notes the maelstrom of black and white fur, with a white triangle over his nose.  On that same visit, Charles describes Ely's emptiness as being like a black hole, dragging everybody into it.

The black crow with the melee of black feathers is mentioned.  "They're pyschopomps- messengers sent to lead the should into the underworld. "
Is that what the black is all about?

In Naples, Sophie notes the walls of the Hotel Convento are pearly white and when she descends into delirium she lays on white tiles.   

Is this a foreshadowing, I wonder of the house of Night in the underworld that Hesiod wrote of, ""ghastly clouds shroud it in darkness."

These many inferences to dark vs. light became a game for me.  Good vs. evil?  (Andrea (ALF))

I was conscious of contrasting light and dark in many of the instances you’ve cited, but I think some of them were subconscious.  Yes, I guess, good and evil would be one way of looking at it—or knowledge and mystery, what we can see versus what we can’t. 
 
5. I know you probably can not answer this question right now, but I must ask, how on earth is Sophie capable of mowing her lawn the first day out of the hospital, then go traveling, climbing steep hills, riding stuffy trolleys, trekking through tunnels etc. so soon after a major injury to her lung?  In all reality it is not possible, so my next question is this.....

Is Sophie a human character or is she a figment of a story or dream? (bellamarie)

Sophie’s not supernatural, she’s just a TEXAN!  Remember, though, she’s been in the hospital a couple of weeks so it’s not like she’s mowing right after surgery.  I do appreciate your skepticism, though.  I was familiar with this kind of operation because my mother had had part of her lung removed (not because of a gunshot, thankfully!) and she certainly wasn’t doing any lawn mowing.  But I did talk to my pulmonologist and asked if a young woman who had this operation could resume normal activities, and his answer was yes.  Of course, she is doing too  much and there will be consequences to pay …
 
6  Rebirth and transfiguration abounds.  Carol do you believe in Reincarnation, I wonder?(Andrea)
 
I like the IDEA of reincarnation and I like playing with it in fiction because it makes an interesting story.  Just think of the story arc you can have with multiple lives!

 
7. Did you write the first section of this book first or did you add to it after you had finished to tie up the ends? I don't think you've missed a thread not mentioned in the first 112 pages.  I am interested in the process.  (ginny)

I think I wrote this pretty much beginning to end, but then I always do several revisions and get a chance to tidy up those loose ends (and I have an editor who insists that I do).  Thank you, though.  You’re probably being too generous.  There are probably a few danglers.


 

[bellamarie]

Carol, thank you so much for taking the time to answer our questions.  Nice to know Sophie is not a supernatural, and yes, I can believe there will be consequences to her rash judgements to over do.  I'm not entirely sure you answered my question completely, but this will do for now.

So, in reading Carol's answers, I have to ask........are we reading too much into the book?  I promised myself I would not get carried away and repeat that mistake again, but lo and behold, look who spent the entire afternoon searching and posting Plato's theory on numerology and the creation of body and soul.   lolol 

I do feel the cult Ely joined  has some significance to the story linked with the scrolls in Italy, and the Pythagorean theory, since they deal with numbers, triangles and initiations.

Something else I found interesting in my digs today, was that when initiated, they are given intoxicants that cause delusions.  Could Sophie be going through an initiation?  When she took a drink from the tour guide at the villa was it just water?

Oh shucks, how could I not delve into searching for these clues, its in my nature as a writer and a curious George to go beyond the surface.  I have my hands on "The Seduction of Water" and think I will begin reading it along with this book, since I don't want to read ahead, but am interested in more of Carol's work.

Ciao for now...........

[Deems]

One more theme before I go to bed--mother and daughter

Sophie and her mother (drowned?)
Demeter and Persephone
Sophie and Agnes
Iusta and her mother (name forgotten at the moment)

Night

[Frybabe]

Bellamarie, I do the same thing. When I find something interesting, whether it is ultimately important or not, I dig into it. Right now, I am reading chapters of my History of Mathematics pertaining to early Egyptian, Greek and Mesopotamian geometry.

Seduction of Water is wonderful IMO. It had a "flow" to it that just carried me along. The selkie tale seemed a little strange to me, but it became clearer as I read. I had never heard of a selkie before. Then, a week after I finished the book, I came across a movie based on a selkie tale. I probably would not have paid any attention to it if I hadn't read Carol's book.

[bellamarie]

Frybaby...Thanks,  for the insight of Seduction of Water, I have never heard of a selkie before either.  I think I was a little tired when I picked the book up tonight, and was getting a little disinterested in it.  I'm glad I read your post, I will stick with it.

Sleep tight!
Ciao for now.............

[kidsal]

Bellamarie -- my Vista does the same -- might try the Insert Key to see if somehow it is on.

[JoanR]

Thanks, Kidsal - that was my problem!

Most tales involving selkies are rather sad.  There's the one about a fisherman who married a selkie, hid her sealskin away so that she couldn't return to the sea.  She bore him a child but would walk sadly along the shore looking out at the water.  She found the sealskin after a few years, donned it and disappeared into the waves.  People would see a seal out in the water watching the child playing on the beach.  The last line said something like " the seal's salty tears ran into the salty sea."  Oh, dear!!!  I remember a few others too - one about a male selkie. Another time.

[Steph]

Glad to see Carols answers. I was beginning to give it up, but she brought me down to what and why she was writing.
We get entangled in side thoughts here. But that is always the choice in book discussions..