Author Topic: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online (Read 158629 times)

ginny · « **Reply #440 on:** June 10, 2009, 12:08:43 PM »

The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.

(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week 2: Through Chapter 16:
The Game's Afoot!

1. What an exciting section! So many clues, so many mysteries!! What do you want to talk about first?
2. Who do you think was in the blue and white sailboat?
3. What cult do you think Iusta belongs to?
4. What is the meaning of the three squares, first at the table and then in the mail? Who do you think is sending them?
5. What do you think is Maria's real interest in the project?
6. How many themes of rebirth and resurrection are there in this section?
7. Can you shed some light on any of the following?
----Parthenope
----Agrai Mysteries
----Oxyrhynchus Project
----Petronii
----The Sibyl of Cumae
----Isis/ Apuleius
----Wilhelmina Jashemski

8. This would make a great movie. Who would you cast in the parts? Who do you see as Simon, John Lyros, Elgin and Sophie particularly?
9. How would you characterize the atmosphere on Capri?
10. What do you think John Lyros is actually after?
11. What did you like best in this section?
12. "We're all hungry for ritual, to experience something beyond the banality of everyday life, to stand outside of ourselves..." (Simon on page 150). When you think about it, who in this book is NOT in this condition? Why?
13. "Of course, " George says of the poppy on page 159, "just where Phineas finds it. Somehow was playing a little joke on you."

Who is the jokester here? Who is sending a poppy just where Phineas found it? Somebody who knows the story and the house. Who gains the most from replicating the Phineas story? WHAT is there TO replicate and why?
14. If you all had to bet on WHO at this point is the most sinister, who would get your vote? There is a tetraktys member among the group--who is it? (Pat)

--------Lyros: ginny
--------Agnes: bellamarie
--------Agnes: JudeS
--------Maria: PatH
15. How would the book have been different if they had waited to read the scrolls? Why did they not? (Sandy)
16. "Red symbolized the color of the underworld. Who left it on the statue?? What does it portend?" (countrymm)
17. How many operatives ARE there in this thing? Who are the good cops, who are the bad cops? Who is the sacrifice intended to be and why? Isn't Phineas a man? Why not pick a man? Who is leaving the cards? Why can't that person simply leave a message in English?
18. When he asked her what the sibyl said she said "She said nothing. She scribbled on a leaf three sentences:
Poseidon will enact his wrath.

The sea will take back what belongs to it.
The maiden shall be returned to her mother."

Is that Pythagorean, that 1-2-3?

Is that like the 3 questions that the Tetrkys ask themselves daily? (Andrea)
[/b]

The Rape of Persephone
Bernini 1621-24.
Rome (Villa Borghese)

Schedule

Chapters 10-16 for June 8 - 14
Chapters 17-24 for June 15 - 22
Chapters 25-End for June 23 - 30

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Interesting Links

NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08
Carol Goodman Homepage
The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri
Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie)
Cult (submitted by Marcie)
Real or Fictional ?
Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants

Discussion Leaders: Andrea & Ginny

Floor Plan of the Villa of the Papyri by Karl Weber, 1750-.

New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!

ginny · « **Reply #441 on:** June 10, 2009, 12:10:31 PM »

We've been talking about the whipping scene shown in fresco? The only frescoes I know of like that are at the Villa of the Mysteries which is in Pompeii. Nobody knows what they actually show, but theories abound. Here's one site which deals with it, the whipping scene is Plate 7. These are not good likenesses but I have some three feet across, see if you can see some similarity between the facial features of the figures:

http://www.art-and-archaeology.com/timelines/rome/empire/vm/villaofthemysteries.html

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I also found a wonderful satellite map of Herculaneum, clearly showing the new construction and where the Villa of the Papyri is, do you think I can find it now? Er? hahaa but it is off to the left of the office as we said. I'll keep trying.

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Phineas Aulus is fictional, and I think Carol did a super job of making him up: his parallel story and the fact he knew Justa are also fictional.

However there is another author with a similar name, Apulieus, who also wrote a Metamorphoses or the Golden Ass and who also, believe it or not, has as a chief character a man who had many travels and adventures, and while during an interest in "the black arts," was transformed into an ass. After many adventures with robbers, he served one of the strange bands of the wandering priests of Cybele, and was initiated in the mysteries of the cult of Isis and Osiris, whereupon he resumed human form and became apparently the author Apulieus himself. This telling of the secret details according to the OCCL, "bears witness to the interest show in his day to Oriental religions." His day was A.D. 155.

I have a feeling that IF the trunk contained some of the mystery of the ages, the actual rites themselves written down, the clue to the Villa of the Mystery frescoes, or perhaps the lost Pythagoras writings with THAT mystery cult solved, it would be of paramount interest.

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We need to find out what this "multispherical" imaging IS and how it works, can anybody take that one on?

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I regret I was somewhat of an ass myself about Wilhelmina Jashemski, that woman made an incredible contribution. Her books (I have one) are so expensive they are like gold, and a LOT of the things she saw are simply gone. For instance the altar panels from the shrine of the house of Caecilius Iucundus in her book are forever missing, stolen. If it had not been for her and her meticulous research, a lot would not be known, despite the new discoveries. Thank you for the research you've done here in looking her up!

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Don't we have a WONDERFUL cliff hanger ending here on page 203? Simon and Agnes are still in there!

What a movie this would make!

I thought you might be interested in this:

Page 198: "We pass the boarded-up tunnels bored into the lower levels of the villa by eighteenth-century 'excavators,' (little better than tomb raiders)."

Here is an example in the Villa San Marco of the work of the earliest "excavators." Interestingly enough, the Villa of the Papyri was one of the early battle grounds between the King of the "Excavators," Joachim Alcubierre and the careful Swiss Karl Weber.

When Alcubierre was told by Charles III when Herculaneum was found at the bottom of a well to bring him the good stuff, Alcubierre proceeded to plow thru what he could (read Curran: The Lost World of Pompeii) like so:

Curran: "Mercilessly, he smashed through fresco-covered walls, tunneled through houses, removed brass lettering from walls and statues without first recording the inscriptions."

He didn't care what he destroyed in the way of artifacts or where he found them, he just dragged the best stuff to the top, the king's man Paderni took what he wanted, they destroyed by hammer (!!) the rest, and discarded.

He made fun of Weber's careful work (shown in the heading as the floor plan of the Villa dei Papiri) and measurements, and Alcubierre "often caused wanton destruction of buildings simply to prevent Weber from recording them." Weber's work was so accurate it's off only by the slightest small fractions of error, an amazing feat.

Now they try to be diplomatic, saying, for instance in the Villa San Marco that they would not have found the kitchens (seen partially in the gaping hole) had it not been for the early tunneling, (they would not do that type of wanton destruction). And since most of Charles III's stuff ended up in the National Museum at Naples (MANN), they feel it was not a total wash.

Jude:
When I learned the Odyssey Odyseus tied himself to the mast so he wouldn't be tempted by the Sirens song. Yes he had himself tied to the mast as on the vase, but left off the wax so he could hear the famous sirens song, the men had wax in their ears and did not hear it, right.

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On the bottom of page 158, the "poppy" is identified as the "flower of Night." That makes sense, since it's somniferum: bearing (ferum) sleep (think sominex and somnambulist: sleep walker).

"Of course, " George says of the poppy on page 159, "just where Phineas finds it. Somehow was playing a little joke on you."

Who is the jokester here? Who is sending a poppy just where Phineas found it? Somebody who knows the story and the house. Who gains the most from replicating the Phineas story? WHAT is there TO replicate and why?

Is Sophie supposed to be Phineas? Then who is going to be Iusta? Why on earth would anybody recreate this? Perhaps they hoped to find the mysteries explained? Phineas' chest was empty, so...er....

What about these strange sets of three cards? Can you make any rime or reason out of what's on those cards? Let's try?

First they are on the table then they come by mail. Somebody is trying to communicate SOMETHING. Why don't they just come out with it? Why all the mystery?

What do YOU think is going on? I know I'd be a long way from this bunch of monkeys, I don't trust any of them. Who is going to play the modern day "Iusta," and who "Phineas?"

??

Inquiring minds want to know what you think!

bellamarie · « **Reply #442 on:** June 10, 2009, 12:15:17 PM »

Ginny, pg 183 " Above the doorway, scratched in the stone, were three signs: a boat, a woman holding a child, and a crudely drawn fish."

Ginny,

Quote

"Would it surprise you to learn that in real life, according to Deiss, the house of Calatoria contained a Christian chapel? An entire room set aside with a cross on the wall."

Well nothing would surprise me anymore.

I happened to be looking for your three symbols in my notes and came across something else I had written down. Phinea says to Calatoria, pg.124 "Yes, my own impressions recorded in a journal I have kept over the years ans some other texts...old books sold to me by priests to increase the wealth of their shrines, sacred texts that I found moldering in bookshops, philosophical treatises copied over by temple slaves and sold on the black market of Alexandria. You'd be amazed at the traffic in magical secrets practiced in the bazaars of the East-its enough to tarnish one's belief in these relligions when so often there's a price attached to their mysteries."

bellamarie · « **Reply #443 on:** June 10, 2009, 12:17:20 PM »

Ginny....WOW!!!!!! Your pictures always astound me. Thank you for taking the time to give us the visuals along with our text. Our imaginations could never do them justice.

ginny · « **Reply #444 on:** June 10, 2009, 12:41:25 PM »

I am so glad you like them! What a mystery we have here, it's hard to keep the players straight@@

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Good one on page 183, thank you! Could not find that reference to save my life. This has got to mean something!

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I came back in to ask another question. If you all had to bet on WHO at this point is the most sinister, who would get your vote?

I vote for Lyros!!! HE is spooky! hhahahaa

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I came back in also to answer Frybabe who caught a glimpse of some film footage on TV of the eruption of Vesuvius. That is probably part of the fascinating (mostly black and white) footage of the last eruption in 1944.

The best photo in fact of the eruption of Vesuvius comes from American bombers. This entire footage which is spellbinding comes if you can get it, in a DVD called The Wrath of God. This stunning DVD shows the people of a nearby city in Italy (I can't remember the name of it either) who were complacent in 1944 when Vesuvius erupted as they recalled a prior eruption when it went exactly so far, the older folks were children when it erupted and it went just so far, they will show you, so they waited for it to do the same in 1944: a lava flow previously. But this time in 1944 it was a different kind of explosion (tho not anything like in 79AD) lots of Allied planes were destroyed at the air base there (these are shown) and it shows the reaction after 2000 years, a parallel: of people literally fleeing with all their possessions, holding things over their heads (just like the ancients were found) processing thru the streets in religious processions and standing on their rooftops shoveling off the debris from the volcano.

We have to remember that in 79AD the eruption of Vesuvius and the 6 pyroclastic flows it threw out were freaks of nature, dependent on a freak wind, the last two eruptions were not like that, at all. Darn good thing.

It is absolutely stunning if you can get your hands on it. The National Geographic also has a DVD called Volcano: Nature's Inferno which is probably the best all around one you can find anywhere, which also includes a bit on Pompeii, with rare footage of pyroclastic flows including one which unfortunately took the lives of their cameramen the Krafts.

bellamarie · « **Reply #445 on:** June 10, 2009, 01:00:16 PM »

Ginny..."If you all had to bet on WHO at this point is the most sinister, who would get your vote?"

At this second I would have to say AGNES!!! I better hurry and send this because I could change my mind in the next second. She has too much going on around her. I'm still tyring to figure out how she knew about the Mermaid shows Sophie went to as a child. It's not a coincidence and it tells Agnes has more personal info on Sophie than she should. hmmmmmmm Where or who did she learn this from?

Frybabe · « **Reply #446 on:** June 10, 2009, 01:10:34 PM »

http://www.papyrology.ox.ac.uk/POxy/multi/index.html

Here is something from the Oxyrhynchus Project site that Gumtree listed a day or so ago regarding multispectal imaging. There is a Flash Player bit you can try. My flash player isn't working in Firefox but perhaps it will work for some of you. Check it out.

ginny · « **Reply #447 on:** June 10, 2009, 01:11:20 PM »

Ho!! sweet little Agnes? hahaha

How about Sophie herself? Do we trust her still? Is she reliable in this section?

HERE it is, at last at last, from the Friends of Herculaneum Society, this is super, if you scroll all the way down to the bottom two photos, you can see the outlines of the Villa dei Papiri (the take off for the fictional Villa Della Notte and John Icky Lyros's reproduction of same) in relation to the ruins of Herculaneum!

YAY!

http://www.herculaneum.ox.ac.uk/herculaneumarchaeology/Suppl1/DeSimone.html

countrymm · « **Reply #448 on:** June 10, 2009, 01:51:40 PM »

Ginny, what a wonderful site you provided. Too bad I wasn't aware of this project when I visited the Bodleian Library at Oxford several years ago. My son was teaching at Oxford then. He is a paleobiologist and does continuing archaelogical work every October in Egypt. His interest is human evolution though, not papyrus scrolls!

http://www.herculaneum.ox.ac.uk/herculaneumarchaeology/Suppl1/DeSimone.html

countrymm · « **Reply #449 on:** June 10, 2009, 01:55:51 PM »

Ginny,

I meant to tell you that I loved the colors in the photos you posted. To me the photos looked like beautiful artwork done in pastels. I wouldn't mind using those colors in my home. Timeless.....

OK, I must get off the computer. It's holding me hostage. I have friends coming here for bridge tonight and I MUST get things done.

JudeS · « **Reply #450 on:** June 10, 2009, 02:21:26 PM »

Looking for a Villain are you?
It just can't be Sophie. She was physically weak but getting stronger all the time . She was naive in her understanding of other people but is wising up all the time.
She seems to me the Heroic type-the solver of mysteries rather than the villain.
In most mysteries the villain is the one you least suspect. So I would go with the Golden haired, apple cheeked lady, Agnes,
just because I least suspect her because of the innocent demeanor.

Romancing the Stone is the name of an article in this weeks NEWSWEEK (pgs 62&63) that deals with the theft of the Elgin marbles and Greeces efforts to get them back. The Greeks have just completed a beautiful new Archeological Museum that was built to house the marbles when they grt them back (if they do).
A glass floor in the new Acropolis Museum showcases a dig in progress. I will just quote a wee bit from this interesting article.

"When the seventh Earl of Elgin took up residence in the embassy in Constantinople in 1799, he began to pursue his passion for classical antiquities. He sent emissaries on a mission to Athens, which was a shabby little outpost that had been under the Ottoman thumb for 400 years. ...........the Ottoman Sultan granted his crew access to the Acropolis...nor may they hinder them from taking away any pieces of stone with inscriptions and figures. Politics was at play here at least as much as art appreciation."

What we are seeing in our novel is again a fight over ownership of very precious documents and art.

bellamarie · « **Reply #451 on:** June 10, 2009, 04:09:52 PM »

JudeS, What an interesting article.

Don't forget its also about revealing things that could "tarnish ones belief in these religions." The Catholic church I am assuming has much to gain and much to lose monetarily, philosophically, theologically, politically and scandalously. For me they stand to gain or lose the most.

I'm trying to sort through the facts and fictions of the possible finds and characters.

sandyrose · « **Reply #452 on:** June 10, 2009, 08:26:05 PM »

Reading all your posts has been very interesting to say the least. At first I was not sure if I read the same book...so I am reading it again with you. Here is my two cents...

Sophie--Page 196, I'm too angry to call him back, too proud to run after him. Women in so many books are portrayed with this attitude--get their backs up and want to do all themselves...She gets angry with Elgin,always trying to insist she is over him (I don't think so), while still pining (I think) over Ely. Miss "I do not want to hear it" was not forced to go on this project. Furthermore if it were me I would be very interested that this guy is helping the FBI and would want to hear all about it and be a part of the investigation. I guess that might be boring though.

11. What did you like best in this section?
I like in Chapter 16, page 202, ...Sophie reading George's scan...But listen, this is how the section George just scanned ends: My confidence in my mastery of the situation dissolved, however, when I entered my room. My trunk lay open....dum, da, dum, da.....

would have changed the story some if they had waited to read the scrolls. Haste makes waste

Ginny asks....Is Sophie supposed to be Phineas? Then who is going to be Iusta? Why on earth would anybody recreate this? I think someone is planning for Sophie to die. Probably it is thought Phineas was sacrificed in the rites.

I think Iusta was a Christian or becoming one...the signs (page 183) above the doorway are signs of Christianity. This would make it difficult for her (if she were real) to be part of these rites she said she was born for.

Ginny, thank you for the pictures and the Friends of Herculaneum link. Wow!

PatH · « **Reply #453 on:** June 10, 2009, 08:26:44 PM »

Wow! I don't have trouble reading the book, but keeping up with all these posts is harder. You almost don't have time to go to the bathroom before there are more, much less take a couple of days off. I'll try to fill in a couple of things I've thought of.

Most sinister character: there is a tetraktys member among the group--who is it? John Lyros is the obvious suspect. There is the unexplained 5 year gap in his life for the 5 year silence, and now he is devoting his considerable wealth to projects which could conceivably add to the knowledge the cult needs. But that's too obvious. If he is a tetraktys, maybe there's another one too. My candidate, in the most unlikely suspect vein, would be Maria. When the wax-lined chest turns out to be empty, she immediately does some furious communicating on her laptop, then goes off citing "urgent family business". This would fit tetraktys business involving a manuscript suspected to be in the chest.

PatH · « **Reply #454 on:** June 10, 2009, 08:35:54 PM »

Poppies: since a number of you are Californians, I have to put in a word for your state flower, the California poppy--harmless and magnificent.

I took this at the Point Reyes whale watching station, where JoanK and I go a lot.

countrymm · « **Reply #455 on:** June 10, 2009, 08:46:30 PM »

PatH,

Marvelous photo of the California Poppy. I'm a Californian and loves these flowers.

However, in Night Villa we have the ominous red poppy to deal with. Red symbolized the color of the underworld. Who left it on the statue?? and what does it portend?

PatH · « **Reply #456 on:** June 10, 2009, 10:30:57 PM »

Quote from: countrymm on June 10, 2009, 08:46:30 PM

PatH,

Marvelous photo of the California Poppy. I'm a Californian and loves these flowers.

However, in Night Villa we have the ominous red poppy to deal with. Red symbolized the color of the underworld. Who left it on the statue?? and what does it portend?

You're right, countrymm, I was digressing, which is my strong point, but, as you say, what about the red poppy? Color of the underworld, symbol of death, bringer of sleep, a part of the pagan ritual which we all suspect someone is trying to resurrect, it's got to be important, but I'm not sure how.

bellamarie · « **Reply #457 on:** June 10, 2009, 10:36:25 PM »

Sophie tended to ignore a lot of things and countrymmm's words got me to thinking....

countrymm,

Quote

"However, in Night Villa we have the ominous red poppy to deal with. Red symbolized the color of the underworld. Who left it on the statue?? and what does it portend?"

Interesting word choice, during Sophie's hallucinations on pg 24-25 "If only you had heeded the portents and signs! The code of rings, the message of the tower, the sign of fire in Odette's skin! Only a blind person could have failed to see what was coming!"

Definition for: portent....a sign or omen portend.......to predict or foretell

The code of rings..."It's the number sequence that's clued me in: 3-4-5, the simplest representation of the Pythagorean theorem. Ely was obsessed with it."

The message of the tower....."Charles Whittman barricaded himself on the twenty-eighth-floor observation deck and picked off fourteen people with his arsenal of weapons..."

The sign of fire in Odette's skin..."The orange in her dress and matching head cloth more than suits her, its casts a warm glow on her dark skin that's like a flame burnishing her cheekbones and toned biceps."

So now Sophie has 6 more clue cards..Man sweeping with a broom, frying pan, sun, smiling crescent moon, a man falling down a flight of stairs, and a masked man.

If there is anything that I can connect to all of these clues it is someone knows the destiny of the future, which would only mean one thing. There is a Sibyl among the crowd as far back as the beginning of the book, because Sibyls are the only ones who could foretell the future that I am aware of. So if this is the case, who might it be? Possibly M'Lou? She did go off the radar. How about our dear sweet (NOT) Agnes?

Is it a coincidence that Sophie's Mom was 17 when she gave birth to her, and the initiates occur when the girls reach the age of 17?

Okay off to bed for me!

Ciao for now....................

PatH · « **Reply #458 on:** June 10, 2009, 11:04:42 PM »

Two of my worst fears--being trapped in a confined space and not being able to breathe--are factors in the book. I already commented on how Goodman's tone when Sophie was having breathing problems felt totally accurate to me. Now we have the scene in the grotto, where Agnes takes Sophie swimming. If you go on out to sunbathe, you can only get back by swimming through an underwater tunnel. If you go back at high tide, the grotto is also underwater, and you have to swim through it too before catching your breath. Aside from the fact that Agnes had no business taking a pneumonia convalescent on such an excursion, the whole setup really creeps me out. I'm sure someone, probably Sophie, will have to swim that stretch to escape or save someone, and just barely make it.

I realize I spoke too soon describing Maria's reaction to the empty chest; it occurs 4 pages beyond this week's assignment (I've read 10 pages farther). But at least it's not a spoiler.

bellamarie · « **Reply #459 on:** June 10, 2009, 11:38:48 PM »

ROFLMAO......PatH, if its confession time, I too read ahead only a few pages and felt so guilty I had to stop. Mea Culpa! Mea Culpa! Mea Maxima Culpa!

I like the way you think about Sophie needing to use that escape route down the road. I can see the scene of narrowly escaping on the movie screen.

This time I really am going to bed. Got busy researching and lost track of time. That's okay I have a day off tomorrow!!!

Ciao for now.............

ginny · « **Reply #460 on:** June 11, 2009, 07:44:38 AM »

Wowee!! Welcome Sandy! I love your take on Sophie, so here's one reader definitely not in her camp:

Quote

Women in so many books are portrayed with this attitude--get their backs up and want to do all themselves...She gets angry with Elgin,always trying to insist she is over him (I don't think so), while still pining (I think) over Ely. Miss "I do not want to hear it" was not forced to go on this project.

No she was not! I think you are the first person to take a somewhat....critical look at our Sophie, she's meant to be us? So the question remains why did she go? That question is off the heading but it's in the former ones, maybe page 8 and back, why?

I love that "Miss I do not want to hear it." Let's keep this thread in mind too, Sandy did not fall for the first person narrator, it looks like she's not identifying with Sophie as she was supposed to! Love it!

This is one reason I love our book discussions, just LOOKIT you all this morning, all over the place AND we've only got a couple of days left in this section till we move on.

Glad you liked the pictures, Sandy.

So here's a good question (am putting these new questions in the heading today):

Quote

would have changed the story some if they had waited to read the scrolls. Haste makes waste

Why do you suppose they did not? And at the end of this chapter John Lyros comes rushing back all concerned, Simon and Agnes are trapped! ? People are rushing around on their own here, is there a lack of coordination?

Or something else?

ginny · « **Reply #461 on:** June 11, 2009, 08:02:25 AM »

Frybabe (Margie) Thank you for that link to the imaging, it's like the link I put to the Friends of Herculaneum, full of chests of treasure, very fine! Your post was done in the middle of a lot of simultaneous postings and I missed it, but it's super, thank you.

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Pat H, no time to go to the bathroom? hahahaha We can't have that! We'll have to factor in potty breaks. hahahaa

John Lyros too obvious? hmmm Maria then? AHA! I'll put that in the heading, I still think Lyros is a skunk.

Elgin has pretty much disappeared this section as the others come out, hasn't he?. Sandy thinks Justa may be a Christian and Bellamarie tackled the cards. I can't make heads or tails out of the cards, but the combination of the falling down the stairs (one of my own secret fears which just came true about a month ago...how do those models walk down those stair cases never holding on, I have NEVER been able to do that) and those stairs to the grotto really tell me something to do with stairs is coming.

Funny how Sandy quoted Sophie as saying you'd have to be blind to miss the portents, and now when they are screaming at her, and she's kind of oblivious...er...I'd be SO out of there, so sorry, major problem at home with dog, I'm out of here. I mean, card falling down stairs put on her table, hello? She's in Phineas's room (who put her there, hmmm?) parallels all over the place and Agnes can translate as well as she can. I would be saying, you don't need me guys, I'm outta here.

Gorgeous flower, thank you so much for that photo, Pat! Can we use it for the website? I've planted poppies here in SC till my face ran blue, nothing. I think they have to reseed and they can't here for some reason. I am envious of CA with its poppies so fabulous, totally envious. But not of their lack of seasons.

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Good stuff on the red color and the combination of death and drugs at the same time, countrymm, and bellamarie. Good question, countrymm, I'm putting it in the heading.

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Oh Pat made a point that reminds me of something:

Quote

Agnes takes Sophie swimming. If you go on out to sunbathe, you can only get back by swimming through an underwater tunnel. If you go back at high tide, the grotto is also underwater, and you have to swim through it too before catching your breath. Aside from the fact that Agnes had no business taking a pneumonia convalescent on such an excursion, the whole setup really creeps me out..

OH I forgot! Not only here as you went on to say you're sure somebody will have to make that swim (foreshadowing) BUT when I read that I stopped dead at Agnes's saying oh I did not realize that the tide would be this high at this time. Hello? She's been there for some time, she goes all the time, she knows (the Shadow knows) when the tides are high for her own sake, yet she deliberately and "innocently" takes Sophie there. And as Sophie has already surmised, WHOM has Elgin told about her raving about her mother in the Aquamarina Springs? I bet you a dollar it was Agnes.

Agnes! I may have to change here my opinion. I still think John Lyros is a skunk. I'll add Pat's question about who is the Tetratkys (can't spell word) member to the heading, good one!

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Bella that was a fantastic thing on color you did. We need to keep your posts like that in our Reader's Guide, very close reading! Thank you.

Am still trying to figure out the Odette character and why she is in the book, at least I've stopped calling her M'Lou. hahahaa

OK so I guess one topic du jour among the many new ones at the bottom of the heading is how many operatives ARE there in this thing? Who are the good cops, who are the bad cops? Who is the sacrifice intended to be and why? Isn't Phineas a man? Why not pick a man?

Who is leaving the cards? Why are they so stupid? What's wrong with "watch your back and don't go down stairs?" Don't go anywhere with XXX?

Leaving cards?

Who is the Tetratkys secret member? Are there spies within spies? Operatives within operatives? If I told you that there's an honor Classics Society which initiates in 2009 (harmlessly) in a candle lit ceremony (no whips), no stairs, no cards, would you be surprised?

Who is set up to die here, to recreate the Phineas story and for Pete's sake WHY?

Inquiring minds want to know what you've noticed or what you think about any of this because Monday we move on (or is it down, to the grotto again?)

Steph · « **Reply #462 on:** June 11, 2009, 08:22:59 AM »

I was rereading Elgins and Sophie discussion about his spying.. Where did the belief that Phineas had a copy of Pythagoras book come from. Why do I suspect that Eli is about to pop up.. Hmm.
Off to create more confusion. The rv must be packed carefully for long trips or whatever you need is at the bottom of something.

ALF43 · « **Reply #463 on:** June 11, 2009, 09:32:31 AM »

A good morning to you all today. I was up last night (@3 AM) reading your posts Bella and Pat, but my eyes refused to cooperate when I tried to look back through our assigned chapters.

I see Ginny is up bright and early with more questions for us. I am so pleased that she has identified more issues that you've raised but SHE is the slave driver of our operation. As soon as I start to figure out a clue, she has thrown another one into the pot for me to consider and mull over.

I am still stumped on one issue that may be relevant or not, I don't know.

on pg 123 Calatoria, speaking with Phineus, says that 7 days ago she went to the sibyl.
When he asked her what the sibyl said she said "She said nothing. She scribbbled on a leaf three sentnces:
Poseidon will enact his wrath.

The sea will take back what belongs to it.

The maiden shall be returned to her mother."

Is that Pythagorean, that 1-2-3?

Is that like the 3 questions that the Tetrkys ask themselves daily?

Steph is off wondering if Eli is about to return! There are some clues pointing to that, that's for sure, Steph.

joangrimes · « **Reply #464 on:** June 11, 2009, 11:33:16 AM »

I am reading this book but I guess I am just not smart enough for all of you people. I need to get on with all this or give it up.

Joan Grimes

ginny · « **Reply #465 on:** June 11, 2009, 11:34:57 AM »

Welcome, Joan!! What are your thoughts on the book? You're plenty smart enough for anybody, jump right in, so good to see you!

Andrea I've put your question in the heading, it's a good one!

ALF43 · « **Reply #466 on:** June 11, 2009, 11:35:32 AM »

Now I happen to know Ms. Grimes that that is not true.
There are so many thoughts flying here, just pick one that interests you in the book and let 'er fly. Welcome.

ALF43 · « **Reply #467 on:** June 11, 2009, 11:36:13 AM »

How weird is that Ginny? Almost at the same time, we are.

PatH · « **Reply #468 on:** June 11, 2009, 11:41:23 AM »

Yes, Ginny, I took the picture of the poppy. Use it if you want to. Here's the link:

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/PatriciaFHighet/IMG_1039_600-2.jpg

And here's the picture from which it was cropped and downsized, in case you want to crop it differently.

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/PatriciaFHighet/IMG_1039.jpg

PatH · « **Reply #469 on:** June 11, 2009, 11:42:54 AM »

If I gave you the wrong link from the 4 available to me, let me know.

PatH · « **Reply #470 on:** June 11, 2009, 11:46:25 AM »

I told you one doesn't even have time to go to the bathroom.

Joan, don't be ridiculous, we all know you're at least as smart as the rest of us.

pedln · « **Reply #471 on:** June 11, 2009, 12:05:35 PM »

Ginny, thank you for that link to Friends of Herculaneum Society. Besides the article itself, there are so many other good links, including a virtual tour of Herculaneum.

PatH – your poppy just blew me away. Gorgeous. What kind of camera, settings, etc.? -- just saw your link to photobucket. Will go.

Oh boy, you all have raised so many questions and I’ve gone back to rereading to see if there are asnwers. Not really. Maybe I’ll just be a devil’s advocate.

Why do so many of you dislike John Lyros? Because he’s rich and has purple eyes? I haven’t seen anything so far that makes him a bad guy? He’s solicitious of Sophie and Agnes, maybe developing an interest in Sophie. He frowned when she took Elgin’s arm to go into dinner. He’s pretty smoothe, which may count against him, and there’s that five-year gap. He does try to quash Simon’s tales – partly because they upset Agnes and also because he doesn’t want to be rumored about, as was Baron F. He’s funding the excavation of the VdNotte, but has he become obsessed with his own reproduction? And now that’s why he’s so anxious to see the scrolls. He could be crazy and a control freak.

The swimming – It was Sophie who asked Agnes to go swimming – at George’s suggestion. He seems been pretty much a stable sort of guy, kind of a pacifier. But is he.

Elgin is coming across as smelling like a rose. He may be Professor Romeo in Austin, but he’s been a perfect gentleman in Italy. Why is Sophie so antaganistic about him going to Sorrento? The reason that he found her in the Hotel C is that he was coming to ask her to go with him. I thought Sophie was really cruel, brutal with her comment to him on p.195 – “A lot of good you did when Dale Henry burst into that conference room. If I remember correctly you dived under the table with me.” That was uncalled for. Can’t blame the guy for being stunned and turning cold.

I thought it was really sweet of him to remember the sonnet that Sophie had written about W. Jamenshki.

Before this gets too long – Jody Foster as Sophie?

ginny · « **Reply #472 on:** June 11, 2009, 12:39:13 PM »

Pat, Marcie put it up the second you gave the ok, it's gorgeous, have you seen it yet? Thank you!

Pedln, I love that site also (Friends of Herculaneum). I like any "Friends of..." group, especially the Friends of Highgate.

And I think Jodie Foster would be perfect as Sophie!

Window washers need to do the window behind computer here, back later on why I think John Lyros is a skunk!

Gumtree · « **Reply #473 on:** June 11, 2009, 01:11:45 PM »

I've been thinking about those symbols at the house Iusta enters when Phineas follows her - the mother and child, the fish, and was the third one a boat ?
In Ch 15 Elgin says "The symbols sound like they could be associated with Isis" and Simon adds..."The only details we know of the Rites of Isis are from Apulius and those are quite tantalising"

Isis was the patron saint of woman, magic, agriculture and much else besides. Scholars have also made comparisons between Isis worship in Roman times and the cult of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Will Durant (History of Civilisation) wrote that :

Quote

"Early Christians sometimes worshipped before the statues of Isis suckling the infant Horus, seeing in them another form of the ancient and noble myth by which woman (i.e) the female principle), creating all things, becomes at last the Mother of God."

So it's quite possible that Iusta is a Christian bearing in mind that she was very taken with the statuette Phineas gave her of Isis and Horus - perhaps she equated them with Mary and Jesus.

I think the Tetraktys member in the group is Lyros simply because of the five year gap in his CV - though when I think about it that just seems to be too pat a coincidence.
To me the real fifth columnist is Ely - though he is not physically present (unless that really was him on the sailboat), he has been ever present throughout the story so far by way of being continually in Sophie's thoughts.
I find Maria is a bit of a worry too! She's an archeologist but all she seems to do is watch proceedings.

Love the way we get the content of Sophie's meals especially while she's recuperating from the pneumonia - tomatoes et al. There's been a lot of interest in the health benefits of tomatoes lately and while we have them regularly I must say that I seem to be eating a lot more of them while reading this book - taking a leaf out of Sophie's book (so to speak). I keep buying these perfectly ripe Baby Roma variety -just a mouthful in each but when I bite into them the flavour explodes in the mouth - I'm not so keen on the mozzarella but they go well with the nutty flavour of a good Swiss cheese - well, any cheese for that matter . A few crackers and a glass of something - Yum!

Gumtree · « **Reply #474 on:** June 11, 2009, 01:13:17 PM »

I've seen it and you're right it's gorgeous! Thanks Pat,

Deems · « **Reply #475 on:** June 11, 2009, 02:37:33 PM »

pedln, you said, "Elgin is coming across as smelling like a rose. He may be Professor Romeo in Austin, but he’s been a perfect gentleman in Italy. Why is Sophie so antagonistic about him going to Sorrento? The reason that he found her in the Hotel C is that he was coming to ask her to go with him. I thought Sophie was really cruel, brutal with her comment to him on p.195 – “A lot of good you did when Dale Henry burst into that conference room. If I remember correctly you dived under the table with me.” That was uncalled for. Can’t blame the guy for being stunned and turning cold."

And I agree. We didn't really get to "see" much about Elgin in Texas (problem with first person narrator who has her own problems with him). Now that there's some action happening, we can see him more clearly, though still through the clouded lens of Sophie.

bellamarie · « **Reply #476 on:** June 11, 2009, 02:42:00 PM »

I'm so upset I could scream....I just spent the entire morning researching and typing and lost it all when I minimized to go include a site link.....................grrrr I'll try again later.

pedln....Jody Foster as Sophie? hmmm have to think about that. Jody has a rough around the edges in her acting. She freaked me out in the movie where she killed that guy for killing her husband and then tried to get away with it. She shot him in cold blood and had NO remorse. Still gives me chills when I think of it.

Do you think Sophie could kill someone who had done her wrong ?

ALF43 · « **Reply #477 on:** June 11, 2009, 03:50:43 PM »

Deems help me out here so I don't go way out on the limb! Your daddy was a preacher and so is my son so betweenthe two of us we should be able to come up with this dilemma of the fish, boat, mother, child, etc.

Of course the Christian take of the mother/child would be The Blessed Mary and son, Jesus.
mother/child- does this figure in our story, besides the histories that we've read of Sophie and Agnus'es parental dilemmas, et al? And Gumtree mentions Isis, the goddess of motherhood and fertility. hmmmm----

The fish well that's easy as well. Jesus included many fishermen in his circle, John was a fisherman, and fish was a staple in the diet.

The initial letters of each word in the Greek phrase "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior" form the word ICHTHUS, which means "fish."

Now we get into the fact that the fish symbol has been used for millennia worldwide as a religious symbol associated with the Pagan Great Mother Goddess. It is the outline of her vulva.

Oh boy! Am I getting in here too deeply?

ALF43 · « **Reply #478 on:** June 11, 2009, 04:06:21 PM »

Pedl- good defense for our boy John. You hang with him, we'll see.

Gumtree while you're munching on the tomatoes you have hit on a great thought.

Quote

So it's quite possible that Iusta is a Christian bearing in mind that she was very taken with the statuette Phineas gave her of Isis and Horus - perhaps she equated them with Mary and Jesus.

Don't you love the description of the Angry Elgin when we wanted to speak privately to Sophie:

"Elgin's head moves back abruptly an his nostrils flare, looking a bit like the angry cobra on Isis's headress...."

Are we getting a glimpse of this snake or is he just nervously awaiting to tell her about the FBI? When that popped into the story I said "What the Hey?" Why in the world are there agents there to begin with?

ALF43 · « **Reply #479 on:** June 11, 2009, 04:29:12 PM »

I apologize but I can not find WHO it was that asked where it said anything about the original Pythagoras scroll and why someone thought that phineas was in possession of it. Well, it seems that the FbI is there because of that interest. They believe that Pythagoras's Golden Verses were real and the Phineas had a copy with him when
Vesuvius erupted.

Really Deems, if someone rushed in, waving a gun I would be the very first to dive for cover. That of course would be AFTER I tried to talk him out of shooting anyone.

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