Author Topic: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online  (Read 158616 times)

bellamarie

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #720 on: June 17, 2009, 07:49:18 PM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.




The book can certainly be read on a variety of levels and each one is great in its own way!---Joan R.

(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week  3: Through Chapter 24:
It's All in the Cards



What a chapter! Revelations, surprises,  but even more secrets, what did you make of it?

1 Talk about unreliable narrators, what do you think of Phineas? Is he reliable? Is Ely? Do you believe Ely?

2. Who is the yet unnamed operative still at the site?

3. The cards and their meanings are revealed!!  What are two possible flaws in Ely's plan to use them?

4. " I see Agnes, looking not only very much alive but the picture of health. Her cheeks are pink and her eyes glowing as if she'd just finished a morning jog." (page 232). What's going on with Agnes and why?

5.  Are you clear  on how the two parallel plots intertwine here? We've only got a small section left. What has Phineas's part in the rites got to do with the hunt for the Golden Verses?

6.  What do you think Simon was arguling about with Lyros? What do you think he was struggling to say to Sophie?

7. What do you think Maria was doing on the computer?  (page 206) Do you buy her emergency family trip?

8. Betrayal as  a theme has just raised its head. How is it paralleled exactly in the two plots?

9. How much do you think Maria saw when she came to look for Sophie? Why couldn't Ely have taken her to land somewhere instead of the swim?

10. "....be careful not to hurt Agnes or Agnes's woman professor." (page 279). What need has Lyros of Agnes's woman professor?

11.  What do you think is the most important part of this section and why?

12. What does Sophie's dream about Odette mean? What is meant by the wrong pan and the wrong day? (Babi)

13. What's with  the diabetic complication that caused Simon, our artist, to die? (Andrea)

14. "  But why would she make up such a story in order to go report to the Church. She is there as a Church representative, and reporting to them would be natural and appropriate. No,...she must have been doing something else."-- Babi. What do you think she was actually doing?

15. Is this book plot driven or character driven? (Deems) Why?

16. What IS the plot, to you, and what climax would you expect at the end?

17. "Ely sent those cards to Sophie, and if he had not sent the date signifying the day she told him of her affair which caused him to join the cult I would not be suspecting him wanting to harm her.  But I asked myself, why did he include that date?  I don't think he has gotten over her being unfaithful."  How do you see Ely?





The Temple of Poseidon
Sounion, Greece
Where "Phineas"  got the scrolls




Discussion Leaders: Andrea & Ginny


Floor Plan of the Villa of the Papyri by Karl Weber, 1750-.




New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!



Ginny,  
Quote
well the only thing is, if it's a red herring the entire plot is shot?

I am NOT saying it is a red herring, I only suggested it could be, but if it is why would the plot be shot?  Elgin wanted Sophie in the first place.  Elgin convinced Sophie to go because he knew what it would mean to her to finally have the answers to Iusta's freedom and be able to finish her book. He also knows Sophie is looking for closure of her own past issues through the answers of Iusta, because she overidentifies with Iusta in her thesis.  Lyros comes on the scene as a benefactor requesting her.  Many of us including myself suspected Lyros is with the Tetkratys, which means he and Ely could be actually working together.  I don't buy the perfect love tryst on the beach.  I feel Ely is setting Sophie up, he is a man scorned.  Those 3 dates were reminders to Sophie to have her reflect back at the sentimental times in their relationship, but also to remind her of her affair with Elgin so she will feel guilty.  She is ripe for the picking....make love to her, set her up and then harm her.  As Ursula said in Little Mermaid, "She's in love.  It's too Easy." Like I said before, the two expensive boats are funded by Lyros, he is with the cult, Ely may have been the one behind Lyros requesting Sophie so he could get her to Italy and harm her.  Ely just like Elgin, knew Sophie would not resist finding out the answers to Iusta.  I don't trust Ely, Lyros or Agnes.  This could be Lyros, Agnes, and Elgin's mission to get the scrolls for the cult.  For Ely and Agnes I feel its personal to harm Sophie.  

Ely sent those cards to Sophie, and if he had not sent the date signifying the day she told him of her affair which caused him to join the cult I would not be suspecting him wanting to harm her.  But I asked myself, why did he include that date?  I don't think he has gotten over her being unfaithful.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #721 on: June 17, 2009, 08:12:19 PM »
Ginny,
Quote
I vote to go ahead now and finish the book and start discussing the last chapter this Friday (the day after tomorrow). I am SO ready to see how it ends and to hear YOUR thoughts on it and I know Carol will be interested too.

What's YOUR vote?

My vote is YES!  I would LOVE to finish it and find out how Carol wraps this all up.  Will my Richard Gere(Elgin) and Julia Roberts (Sophie) ride off into the sunset like in Runaway Bride and Pretty Woman.  Will we have a happily ever after?  Will the scrolls defame the Catholic church?  Carol and Phineas said something about how this could make people see religions in a different way. I want to know who Maria's aunt is, since it was important she dresses properly for her.  I can't wait to see.

I'll check back later to see the outcome of the vote.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #722 on: June 17, 2009, 08:21:17 PM »
Andrea,
Quote
My concern is for our readers however.  Today is only Wednesday evening & each reader may not get the chance to complete the novel by Friday morning.
 What will happen to those folks that lag behind?   - there are nearly 100 pages left.

I think there are only a few of us who have not read ahead.  We have lost alot of people posting, I suspect because they have finished the book and are waiting to discuss the ending, as some have already stated.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #723 on: June 17, 2009, 08:44:33 PM »
We need to hear from those who haven't finished.

For myself, I want to put up a few more half-baked theories, which will take less than 24 hours, and then I'm good with either way.  Of course I'm eager to move on and find out what happens, but if waiting until Sunday means that some people will catch up, I'm willing to wait.

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #724 on: June 17, 2009, 08:58:45 PM »
Your votes have been noted.  Does anybody else have an opinion before Ginny "weathers" these storms and retuns?
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

Frybabe

  • Posts: 10032
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #725 on: June 17, 2009, 11:26:23 PM »
I confess. I finished the book this morning. I just couldn't wait to find out who the bad guys are.

Gumtree

  • Posts: 2741
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #726 on: June 18, 2009, 01:19:17 AM »
I'm happy either way but will have little time to read the full section by Friday -I'll have to burn the midnight oil.
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

Gumtree

  • Posts: 2741
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #727 on: June 18, 2009, 01:40:09 AM »
Bellamarie: I don't buy Sophie and Ely's 'perfect love tryst' either. It was just not right. He's up to something and is definitely a baddie. But why, oh Why does Sophie fall straight back into his arms after his 5 year absence and after the way he neglected her when she lost the baby....

You wrote:
Quote
He also knows Sophie is looking for closure of her past issues through the answer of Iusta, because she over identifies with Iusta in her thesis

Sophie is definitely looking for closure - comfort too - she is very wounded.
She over-identified with Iusta in a paper but after Elgin pointed that out to her she re-wrote her paper and then went on to expand the paper into her thesis. She may identify with Iusta on a personal level but her professional side is more discerning - doesn't Elgin say somewhere that she is a skeptic and won't accept anything on face value.

I have the impression that Lyros only put up the money after the shooting. I think the real target had been Elgin perhaps to prevent him having a hand in the discovery of the scrolls. I'm sure that it was Elgin who had the final say on Sophie's appointment (and Agnes' too for that matter).
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

Mippy

  • Posts: 3100
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #728 on: June 18, 2009, 06:12:10 AM »
Let's finish the book ... perhaps I'll have time this afternoon to burn the "afternoon oil"    ;)
quot libros, quam breve tempus

ginny

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #729 on: June 18, 2009, 06:42:41 AM »
We're about equally divided here and there's really no reason to burn any oil, tomorrow, Friday,  is only  three days from Monday, let's wait till Monday, as we have portioned our time,  we have some theories yet, I do, we want to try. I confess to a gross impatience here but as Andrea says it IS 100 pages and some of us still have a lot we want to say!

I feel as if I'm at the top of a roller coaster, we've climbed up and up and we're perched on the top, and I'm SUCH an impatient character.

I have to congratulate you all, I think this is one of the first times some of us have been able to hold back and not read ahead. Friday is 3 days off Monday, read it if you like or not, but we'll still commend on what's past till Monday. Let's  wait till Monday. Good for you!

Please have all questions ready for Carol on Monday, this fits the schedule we told her anyway.

This has really been a super discussion, thanks to you!!I think Andrea should get some credit here, too, SHE is the one who made the divisions in the book, for us to concentrate on, didn't she do a good job!! Just perfect!

ginny

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #730 on: June 18, 2009, 06:52:44 AM »
Deems talked earlier about "plot driven" or "character driven" novels, and that she thought this was plot driven. Do you still think so, Deems? What do the rest of you think?


Maybe we can take a minute to talk about the plot. When I said the plot would be shot if there weren't a clear parallel for Sophie being a parallel of Phineas, Bella gave her idea of the plot and I am beginning to realize that perhaps we don't all see the plot the same way and PERHAPS I have, myself, over identified with the PARALLELS to the Phineas story, which MAY be red herrings, themselves.

Boy!

I'm going to sit down Sunday with this buzzard and finish it, I have a feeling I, too, have gotten off the roller coaster into the fire...er....hmmmmm. But in the meantime.....

What DO you see as the main plot?

Do we actually agree on that? We don't seek consensus but I have a feeling I'm way out in left field and I realize I haven't really thought about a main plot at all! Just bumping along, like Sophie, stopping here and there to smell the roses. And get distracted by the roses and the Smorfia games.

What in the main plot YOU see would be the climax expected? I really need to think about this one, but do YOU?

_______________________

Bella sees Ely as the bad guy:

Ely sent those cards to Sophie, and if he had not sent the date signifying the day she told him of her affair which caused him to join the cult I would not be suspecting him wanting to harm her.  But I asked myself, why did he include that date?  I don't think he has gotten over her being unfaithful.

How do YOU see Ely? Putting these two things in the heading, please see heading and the red questions for today. Or talk about anything you please.

Well again, I took Ely at Sophie's good faith. He's certainly suspicious tho.

Bellamarie: I don't buy Sophie and Ely's 'perfect love tryst' either. It was just not right. He's up to something and is definitely a baddie. But why, oh Why does Sophie fall straight back into his arms after his 5 year absence and after the way he neglected her when she lost the baby.

There's been so much talk of Jashemsky (sp)  and the ghost roots, i assumed he was filling up the hole caused by the losses she sustained, but again we've got HER word for it, hmmm

I agree with Gum: Sophie is definitely looking for closure - comfort too - she is very wounded.

Gum said: I have the impression that Lyros only put up the money after the shooting. Could be, but there's no way that he could have built that replica after the shooting so it's been there.

What's the plot, dear Reader? If you had to outline it, could you?

What's the expected climax? That would be the end to the rising conflicts and actions YOU see as the plot? What do you expect to see?  Whether or not you have read to the very end you can answer that one.

ALF43

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #731 on: June 18, 2009, 07:19:22 AM »
Good morning, I am about ready to take off for NY State.  I am excited to see my girls/and grandkids.  I personally am going to reread the last 100 pages and will be ready by Monday.

I am not blowing smoke here but Ginny spends hours on her headings.  (I, on the other hand, like to chatter back and forth between thoughts and could care less about questions.)
It takes hours of considerate thought and time to hone in on various ideas that might pique a reader's interest.

BUT ....with that said please do take the time today and tomorrow to consider Ginny's questions up above us (not in the attic).  

I like # 5 and #8, I think that they are essential to the plot.
Ginny asks
Quote
What's the plot, dear Reader? If you had to outline it, could you?

I can't even outline my packing list for the month much less a complicated plot. ::)

See you when I get there.  If I can get the teenagers off the computer I will be "in" tonight to see what else you brilliant sleuths have discussed.

Have fun and keep your eyes out for the villian.

Andy
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #732 on: June 18, 2009, 08:23:03 AM »
Safe travels Andrea and enjoy your family!  Teens and computers??  I thought computers are out and blackberries and iphones are in.  My teen grand daughter has lost interest in the computer, now that she got her fancy shmancy phone.  I helped raise her from birth and am beginning to miss her even when she is here, because that darn phone has taken priority.  I knew it was bound to happen, but I thought I had one more year.  She is a great girl, so I can't complain.

Andrea, thank you for pointing out the time and work Ginny  puts into those questions.  She is one of a kind.  The two of you work excellently together!!!

Ciao for now..................
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Babi

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #733 on: June 18, 2009, 08:49:25 AM »
 Sounds good to me, GINNY. I've run out of pertinent things to say about this section. I vote for moving on. ALF, we would just start discussing the rest of the book on Friday. It will probably take another week to finish discussing it.

  Winds that uproot oaks are definitely unpopular with me. It reminds me of the
saying about cold weather up in north Texas. "The only thing between
Amarillo and the North Pole is a barbwire fence!"
If you study a map, that's pretty much true.

  Like some others, I have finished the book, but my notes are paged and dated so that I do not get ahead of the discussion. And the book is complicated enough that I have to read my own notes to keep track as we go along.  :-[
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

ginny

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #734 on: June 18, 2009, 08:55:56 AM »
We've actually voted to wait till Monday, Babi, that's not that long, let's talk about the PLOT. I have a feeling my idea of the plot is not what IS.

I like your idea of notes paged and dated, that's smart!

Safe trip, Andrea!



Frybabe

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #735 on: June 18, 2009, 09:14:20 AM »
By the end of the current section, I am still suspicious of everyone, especially Ely for reasons already stated. I don't for one second believe he is the FBI informant. I suspect Maria is not who she says she is. Lyros is suspect for his five year disappearance, but most of his current behavior could be construed either way. I distrust Agnes somewhat partly because she seems to be playing people with her poor Agnes, look what she went through act. But again, some people truly have trouble getting over terrible events and are needy personalities. George, who pretty much stays at Lyros' villa, could be quietly sitting back and pulling the strings. That would mean more than one cult member on the team. Elgin, while I am hoping he is a good guy, acts suspiciously at times also. Just like Lyros' behavior, it could go either way. So, so far, I peg Ely as a bad guy but haven't decided on the others.

ginny

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #736 on: June 18, 2009, 09:29:27 AM »
By the end of the current section, I am still suspicious of everyone, especially Ely for reasons already stated. I don't for one second believe he is the FBI informant.

Wow! And we only have his word for Lyros too! I could be wrong again on Lyros!

It's like a Masked Ball in Venice!

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #737 on: June 18, 2009, 11:33:59 AM »
ginny,
Quote
It's like a Masked Ball in Venice!

How fun Carol must have had writing this book.  Although I must say some of these characters seem to change masks.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Deems

  • Posts: 252
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #738 on: June 18, 2009, 11:35:28 AM »

Ginny--herrings are only red after they have been smoked (or maybe dried, I've forgotten).  And even then, they're more brown than red. 

I'm going to go ahead and finish the novel because I'm pretty sure who will "win" Sophie (I'm not sure she's such a catch) and who the bad guys are.  Like several of you, I never would have finished the book had it not been for the discussion.  Too much going on, too little character development.  But the discussion has been worth it.  Good work, Ginny and Andy.

Yes, the book is definitely plot driven.  Two plots but I don't see them as parallel.  Also two first person narrators.  I also have lost interest in the Phineas plot.  He does go on and on.


bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #739 on: June 18, 2009, 11:49:21 AM »
Deems, 
Quote
I'm going to go ahead and finish the novel because I'm pretty sure who will "win" Sophie (I'm not sure she's such a catch)

I'm pretty convinced Sophie is not such a catch too.  She is too wishy washy for me.  Regardless of all her past issues, I was having a difficult time with her from the first pages.  I did not see this so much as a love story and hope Carol does NOT make it into one in the last pages.  I personally didn't connect to anyone but Elgin having any true love feelings.  He showed care and concern for Sophie, he respected her, and I can see where he seems to have feelings lingering for her.  The rest seem to be very "self" driven. 

I don't have time to apply to the ending of the book today, so I will do it tomorrow since I only have one day care child coming at 1:30 and will nap til pick up time.

Ciao for now..................
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Gumtree

  • Posts: 2741
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #740 on: June 18, 2009, 12:13:52 PM »
I've been tracking down the Pythagorean 'Golden Verses' which our characters are hoping to find in a papyrus scroll - there are about a zillion sites which quote verses said to have originated with Pythagoras or his school.

This extract is one example:

Never let slumber approach thy wearied eyelids,ere thrice you review what this day you did:Wherein have I sinned? What did I?
What duty is neglected? All, from the firstto the last, review, and if you have erred grieve in your spirit, rejoicing for all that was good.
With zeal and with industry, this, then, repeat, and learn to repeat it with joy. Thus wilt thou tread on the paths of heavenly virtue. Surely, I swear it by him who into our souls has transmitted the Sacred Quaternary [the Tetraktys], the spring of eternal nature.


you will find more at -  http://www.astronomy.pomona.edu/archeo/greece/pythagoras/golden.htm

This translation puts it more succinctly:

Never sleep before going over the acts of the day in the mind

http://www/secretoflife.com/goldverses.html


and again:

...and never let your eyes
The sweet refreshings of soft slumber taste,
Till you have thrice severe reflections past,
on the actions of the day from first to last.
Wherein have I transgressed? What done have I?
What duty unperformed have I passed by?
And if your actions ill on search you find,
Let grief; if good, let joy possess your mind.
This doe, this think, to this your heart incline,
This way will lead you to the life Divine.


http://www.fourfoldpath.org/index.htm


Plenty of other stuff on those sites for the Tetraktys cult members to ponder on.


Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

countrymm

  • Posts: 55
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #741 on: June 18, 2009, 02:08:05 PM »
Gumtree, thanks for your post on the 4 fold path.  Interesting.  Through yoga, I am aware of the 8 fold path and happen to agree with it.  Encourages us to end suffering by detaching from possessions, etc. (So, everyone, go throw away your clutter.  I'm still trying to DO that.)

http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/eightfoldpath.html

countrymm

  • Posts: 55
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #742 on: June 18, 2009, 02:19:47 PM »
Gumtree, as you will see in the eightfold path, there is within it a fourfold path. Attachment is a real problem for humans!  Why do we have such trouble letting go?  Maybe if Sophie had let go of Ely sooner..............

For the 4 statements, you may wish to read:  http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/fourtruths.html

Steph

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #743 on: June 18, 2009, 03:17:25 PM »
Now I am not confused but annoyed. Sophie is a blinking idiot.. Eli has villain written all over him. Obviously the woman never got over the stupid man.. To be in love with someone in a cult is to lose big time. She also believed him with no question.s Here I thought she was a strong woman..
Alf.. Chatauqua because they have a lovely campground on a lake and I always wanted to see te town. We are too early for the classes and night stuff, but at least we can see the site. We may come back next year for classes.
So I am officially disgusted with the women..Hmmph.. Sophia is truly stupid.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

marcie

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #744 on: June 18, 2009, 03:18:35 PM »

pedln wrote:

"Sophie is the one who has provoked me.  Many of you have characterized her as either dumb or naïve, and I’ll go along with that.  But she’s also been dishonest.  She really led us down the garden path – into thinking that she didn’t get involved sexually, romantically, with Elgin until Ely had gone to New Mexico.  And now we find out that’s WHY he went to New Mexico."

pedln, I agree.  I'm reading the book on Kindle, and pages are difficult for me to find (disadvantage to Kindle--it's harder to flip around and find things).  Can you find the section early on that led you and me to think that Sophie's affair with Elgin did not coincide with her time with Ely?  You thought the affair came after Ely left for NM and I thought she had the affair before her living with Ely.  Obviously up front somewhere, our narrator (Sophie) is withholding, obfuscating, being dishonest (with herself, with us).

Yes, Ginny, she is an unreliable narrator, at least in all the parts of the story that deal with her personal life and her observations about others. 


I like the technique that Carol is using to reveal information about Sophie's past...a little at a time. It's a good way to keep suspense and provide clues (or misdirections/red herrings) in different contexts. This is a mystery story and it can't be obvious who did what.

I can't find information in the book that shows that Sophie is deliberately misleading us about when she and Elgin had an affair. It may be in the book, but I don't find her saying that she started her relationship with Elgin after Ely left.

At the end of Chapter 23 (p 268) she says that December 22 was the day that Ely left. Ely saw Elgin's fax number at the top of the page of FBI information about the Tetraktys that Elgin had gotten from a friend in the FBI although Sophie didn't want to tell Ely where she got the information and she had lied and said it was from a student. 

Sophie had broken it off with Elgin a month before but Ely was hurt and upset and left.

During the previous couple of years, Ely had not left Sophie for another woman but he had left her out of his life with his new community--the Tetraktys cult, which had taken over every aspect of his life.

bellamarie

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #745 on: June 18, 2009, 03:38:11 PM »
Marcie,   
Quote
I can't find information in the book that shows that Sophie is deliberately misleading us about when she and Elgin had an affair. It may be in the book, but I don't find her saying that she started her relationship with Elgin after Ely left.


There was no place in the book that led us to believe Sophie turned to Elgin AFTER Ely joined the cult. 
WE ALL ASSUMED IT..............shame on us.   lololol

Marcie,
Quote
Sophie had broken it off with Elgin a month before but Ely was hurt and upset and left.

I do understand Ely being upset and hurt even though she says she had broken off the affair a month ago.  Learning someone has been unfaithful is devastating regardless when you find out about it. 

Like I said before....I did not like Sophie or the narrator for that matter from the very beginning.  For Sophie to just fall into Ely's legs, so soon after she had been at dinner making goo goo eyes at Lyros and contemplated sharing the hotel room with him was the last straw for me.  I don't care what feelings she has left over for Ely, this woman is ridiculous!  Grrrr I don't even want to get started on how frustrated I have been with her actions and inactions through out this book.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

countrymm

  • Posts: 55
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #746 on: June 18, 2009, 03:39:57 PM »
Off Topic and just for fun.  Are we allowed to have NON book fun?  Smile..

http://www.strollingoftheheifers.com/v2/

Take a look at these wonderful photos of heifers (young female cows who have not had a calf of their own).

'Strolling of the Heifers' is a fund raising project which is part of the Farm Aid project. It provides farm relief and shows appreciation for Vermont's farmers.  The events of the day are fun to read.  Also, check out their own Flickr page if you want to see more cute heifers.
Click ahead to page 11 on that site to see the cute heifers and kids who show them.


    http://www.flickr.com/photos/strollingoftheheifers/


This event takes place annually in BRATTLEBORO, VT.  One of these years I'm going to attend.  Lucky that a have a close friend who lives in Brattleboro, eh?

Slap me hand if I've been bad.

JoanR

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #747 on: June 18, 2009, 04:14:51 PM »
Countrymm -  Thanks!  Brings back memories for sure.  We had the prettiest heifers of all time  -  Jerseys.

Deems

  • Posts: 252
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #748 on: June 18, 2009, 04:36:03 PM »

countrymm--Far from admonishing you, I thank you for the link to the heifers' stroll.  I wish I had known about it earlier because----and this is a true story---my daughter and I both have Jack Russell terriers.  Her terrier, Ben (Benjamin Douglas) loves cows.  I am not making this up.  My Kemper Elizabeth watches everything intently out the window, but she shows no special interest in cows.

My daughter and I actually take the dogs out on a country road near here where there's a field with black cows (I think Angus, but not sure).  Ben knows when the field is coming up--no prompting, he has learned the landmarks.  He goes to the correct side of the Jeep and starts whimpering before we can see the field.  When we get to the cows he really lets go, barking and whining and pawing at the window.  After we pass the cows, he looks so happy, eyes shining and grinning the way only a Jack can.

Kemper generally ignores him, but sometimes he gets so overwrought that she thinks she has to put him in his place (she's top dog and one year older).

Both dogs enjoy seeing horses but that is to be expected because Jacks are often raised by people who have horses. 

But Ben would LOVE to see those heifers!


PatH

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #749 on: June 18, 2009, 06:06:47 PM »
Here's what Goodwin says in the early chapters that might date Sophie's affair:

p. 12, start of chapter 2--"It's been five years since I saw Ely...."

p. 47, 3/4 through chapter 4--I don't generally like to admit even to myself that I had an affair with Elgin Lawrence my second year of graduate school, and when I do think about it I tend to lump it together with that blurry period after I lost the baby and just before Ely left.  Blurry because I was crying...and drinking a lot.  I remember that Elgin's attentions were flattering and that his cynical attitude toward New Age fads, health food, and yoga seemed bracing.  He was the perfect antidote to Ely, I thought."

p. 52, end of chapter 4--"...he's using the same words he used five years ago to seduce me."

So you know it's about when Ely left, but the second quote is a carefully crafted bit of not-quite-specific.

countrymm

  • Posts: 55
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #750 on: June 18, 2009, 06:08:15 PM »

countrymm--Far from admonishing you, I thank you for the link to the heifers' stroll.  I wish I had known about it earlier because----and this is a true story---my daughter and I both have Jack Russell terriers.  Her terrier, Ben (Benjamin Douglas) loves cows.  I am not making this up.  My Kemper Elizabeth watches everything intently out the window, but she shows no special interest in cows.

My daughter and I actually take the dogs out on a country road near here where there's a field with black cows (I think Angus, but not sure).  Ben knows when the field is coming up--no prompting, he has learned the landmarks.  He goes to the correct side of the Jeep and starts whimpering before we can see the field.  When we get to the cows he really lets go, barking and whining and pawing at the window.  After we pass the cows, he looks so happy, eyes shining and grinning the way only a Jack can.

Kemper generally ignores him, but sometimes he gets so overwrought that she thinks she has to put him in his place (she's top dog and one year older).

Both dogs enjoy seeing horses but that is to be expected because Jacks are often raised by people who have horses. 

But Ben would LOVE to see those heifers!


[/quote DEEMS. I loved your answer.  The funny thing is that I read your line "Jacks are often raised by people who have horses" in a strange way.  I honestly thought I saw it as "Jacks often raise people who have horses".  I guess I live too close to dogs and know how often they train us!  I have 4 rescued cocker spaniels and do rescue work myself.  Can you guess that that is how I ended up with 4??  They are great and I love them so much but I often feel like the pied piper all day as they follow me around.  Guess they are just asking me to taking them for a long walk in our avocado grove here in S. CA.  Where do you and your daughter live?

I grew up in Massachusetts and have always liked cows.  Those eyes are incredible.  Funny that your daughter's Ben is crazy about cows but your Kemper Elizabeth could care less.  My dogs are crazy about avocados.....and would love to chase coyotes but of course we don't let them.  Coyotes are too wiley..................nuff said?  Off to walk 4 cockers!

countrymm

  • Posts: 55
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #751 on: June 18, 2009, 06:12:27 PM »
Countrymm -  Thanks!  Brings back memories for sure.  We had the prettiest heifers of all time  -  Jerseys.

JOAN, are you from the the British Isles?  Jerseys are beautiful.  On a different subject, have you read the Guernsey book (Potato Peel Society)??   Wonderful!

PatH

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #752 on: June 18, 2009, 06:18:43 PM »
Countrymm, you found us too late.  We had a wonderfully spirited discussion of the Guernsey book here, and Annie Barrows responded to our emails, answering some questions and making some comments.  It amazes me how generous authors can be with their time for groups like us (Carol, that means you, too, thank you).

It's in the archives, but it's daunting to read that way.

JudeS

  • Posts: 1162
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #753 on: June 18, 2009, 06:46:09 PM »
I had some serious dental work yesterday and have been non functional for one and a half days.  Then I felt better  with the help of some heavy duty pain killers.  I read the last two pages of your posts and was hit by the following questions:

1) What are the rules of the Tetraktys  Cult (T.C.From here on)  regarding sex?

2)We learned that silence is required for five years-is abstinence also practiced?

3)What happens to peoples property and money while they are in the cult?

4) Are you allowed to leave? If so do you take out what you put in?

5)What is the overall purpose of the T.C.? i.e. Could be anything from taking over the world to making the leaders rich to
have a special afterlife when they die or commit suicide.

6) Every cult and religion has rules about the following-: Birth, Death, Sex, Marriage and Children. We don't have a clear picture of the T.C. attitude to most of these things.

On another matter-Do Phineas and Iustia have their counterpart in our little group?

When I look at the six character who we have as suspects they are not red herrings but slippery fish that slide back into the water just when we think we caught them. I thought we were better fishermen than we are. I love a mystery but I think it's time to read to the end.

Oh well-I learned a lot of Ancient History and  Archeological facts in this discussion. Thanks to all those that put it all on the site for us to enjoy.
   


sandyrose

  • Posts: 872
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #754 on: June 18, 2009, 09:03:51 PM »
Ginny asks about the plot...I find that hard to answer.  There is so much going on in this story.  Each character seems to have his or her own agenda.   Each seems to have a different reason for being on this project.  I find it hard to see a plot.  Maybe I am looking for too hard an answer.

And thank you Ginny and Andrea for all you put into this. 

joangrimes

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #755 on: June 18, 2009, 10:32:47 PM »
I have to agree with Sandyrose about the plot.  I don't think the book has a real plot nor does it have any character development. I really had a hard time reading it but I did finish it.  At first I blamed it on myself.  I said I was not a classical scholar but you know that two years ago the museum of art where I am a docent had a marvelous Pompeii exhibition.  I was throughly trained on it.  I went to Pompeii, Herculeanium and Capri and looked all of the things there and that was not my first time to visit that area.  I really studied all of that then.  So am not untrained on that part of it all.

If I had been reading this book by myself I would never have finished it. Thanks Alf and Ginny for offering me a challenging discussion that made me   finish this book.  I really do not like to not finish a book that I start.

Joan Grimes
Roll Tide ~ Winners of  BCS 2010 National Championship

Babi

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #756 on: June 19, 2009, 09:18:44 AM »
PatH, thanks so much for finding those quotes. I knew I had the time period right.
".. that blurry period after I lost the baby and just before Ely left.  Blurry because I was crying...and drinking a lot."

  Come on guys, cut the gal some slack. She has been working through
some major trauma, here.

Quote
Each character seems to have his or her own agenda.   Each seems to have a different reason for being on this project
  SANDYROSE, (and JoanG)  perhaps this is the plot.  You have a cast of characters, each with their own motivations and their own agenda, and you follow them through the developing events.  Confusing? Of course! It is a
mystery, after all.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #757 on: June 19, 2009, 09:45:32 AM »
Ginny,  
Quote
What's the plot, dear Reader?

I personally felt, because it began with Sophie, it revolved around her and she had a reason for going on the dig to finish her book, that became the plot for me.  Yes, there was alot going on with the characters, especially when you are having to sort through all the issues of their pasts, the mythological stuff, the religions/cults, the rebuilding of VDN, the relationships and then all the historical stuff, but, I kept trying to stay focused mostly on just the main characters who for me was: Sophie, Agnes, Ely, Elgin, Lyros and Maria. Yes, Phineas held my interest only because he is suppose to have the scrolls, and I like Johnny Dep.  lol  I think having my pen and pad next to me helped me stay focused on who I saw as the main characters, villians, hero,heroine, not so important ones, and red herrings, if any.  

I did want to delve further and learn more about Pythagoras, Poseidon, Ovid's Metamorphoses and even Phineas and Iusta, since this was all new for me, and wanted to find clues as to what it had to do with the story, since Carol mentioned those were books she used when writing NV.  I'm a babe in the woods when it comes to all the mythological stuff. I have never had the blessing to travel outside of the country, other than Canada, and since my grandparents were born in Sicily and immigrated to the United States, I have always wanted to go to Italy. So reading this book gave me some insight to areas I would never have gained had I not read this book.  If I am ever blessed to go to Italy and see these areas they will have a little familiar feeling to me from what I have learned in this book and what all of you who have traveled were so willing to share with us.

For me, since Sophie getting her information to finish her book on Iusta was the plot, I kept my focus there.  Oh believe me there were parts and posts that I found luring me in other directions.  I didn't see a love story happening so I didn't focus on any particular couple.  I liked Elgin from the start and thought he had lingering feelings for Sophie, but because I didn't see Sophie so much as a catch, I really didn't allow myself to care.  I expected Sophie to finally get a chance to see Ely once more for closure.  I sure didn't expect her to wrap herself up in his legs instantly the way she did. So that just frustrated me and confirmed my feelings about her being weak, wishy washy, and needed male attention.  I was turned off with the entire initiations, frescoes, sexual activities, etc.  I was interested in what part the scrolls would play if any, with the Catholic church, since I am Catholic.  The Pythagorean theory, Sibyls and foretune telling was all smoke and mirrors to me, because I have never had any belief or interest in that sort of stuff trying to claim knowledge of the creation and Christ.  I am secure in my own religion and belief and found all of this as just being a part of the story, but not the plot per se.

As far as trying to outline the plot....For me it was Sophie overidentifies with Iusta in her thesis, she wants information to finish her book, the shooting takes place, Elgin convinces Sophie to go to Italy, cult members are being revealed, Phineas ties the scrolls into the story, Sophie sees Ely, Iusta is NOT so innocent, Agnes murders Simon and the rest I won't go into.  It does seem there were two stories being told, but the mythological one I din't find all that interesting.

I got a chance to finish the book and won't comment until everyone is ready.  I will wait for Ginny and Andrea to open up that discussion part.

Ciao for now...................

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #758 on: June 19, 2009, 09:55:13 AM »
Babi,
Quote
Come on guys, cut the gal some slack. She has been working through some major trauma, here.


Sorry, I can't let that be her excuse to justify her actions and inaction. As the saying goes, "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger."  I just couldn't identify with Sophie, I have known women like her and want to help them or scream at them.  lololol
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

ginny

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #759 on: June 19, 2009, 10:04:45 AM »
Gosh so many good thoughts here today, it's going to take a while to respond,  but I love reading all the new stuff and your pointing out things I missed.

Bella's last post raises a question, another question to go with JudeS's excellent ones above, an idle question in my mind. Throughout the discussion we've said from time to time, that we can or can't identify with the protagonist here.

Do you think it's necessary TO identify with the protagonist of every book you read?


DO you tend TO identify? I almost never do. Gosh when I think back over what I have read, I'm trying to remember a book when I DID identify with the protagonist? I cannot think of the last time I did. Marjorie Morningstar?

The former Poet Laureate of SC, now deceased, did a workshop on writing I took once and she said in writing a mystery the theme is: I'm going on an adventure: you come, too.

That's sort of how I view mysteries: I've come, too.  Is  something wrong with ME? (Don't say, if so, now is not the time) hahahaa

Were we thrown off by the First Person Narration? That's sort of a chummy thing, immediately throws you into the action from the point of view of the speaker but were we snookered there, too?

How would it have been different (a Week I question) if it had NOT been in the First Person?

It's a mystery.  It's supposed to be mysterious. It is.  Very carefully so. When you read Poirot, do you identify with him? Hastings? Mrs. Lemon?

No you don't.

Why do we need to here? Why can't this character stand alone with her flaws and her perceptions?

I'm interested to know this.



Andrea and I appreciate the kind thoughts on the discussion,  but without YOU  and your own thoughts and contributions  and questions and points, we'd be talking to ourselves, and we can do that on the phone.

This has been a great discussion, the author IS present, and IS here in our living rooms reading every word, and is our guest. I'm very much looking forward to next week, so far as I know this is one of the first times we have been able to hold back reading ahead and commenting on it.

Remember this Monday to bring all of your final questions, we've gotten quite a super interview page for SeniorLearn, and that's our own coup, this is a new site and the Reader's Guide we make from this will be fabulous: thanks to you and Carol's generosity in answering.

Still trying to find the Tombola Smorfia game! What a year to break a leg and not be able to go to Italy in person, I'm sure I can find it there.