Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online

[marcie]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week  1: (pp-112)

1. Sisyphus!    Sillybos! Persephone!  Demeter!  Hades!  Dionysus! Parthenope!  Sirens! Minerva Tyrrhena!  Cybele! Harpy! And many more!   The first 112 pages are a rich riot of classical allusion.  What reference in the first 112 pages would you like to know more about? Choose one which interested you and bring an explanation of it here so we can all learn.

2.   "Many are the narthex bearers but few the Bacchoi." (page 76 ) What does this mean? Why is it repeated?

3.   What effect does the First Person Narration of the protagonist Sophie  and her point of view have on the reader?  Do you think this narrator so far is  reliable? Why or why not?

4.   Both Sophie and Agnes seem to feel guilty about things or overly responsible for events.  Why?

5.   Do you understand the tetraktys? What do 3, 4 and 5 have to do with the triangle of 10 dots (page 29)?   Does anyone know anything about  Pythagoras or Pythagorean theory?  What does the word tetraktys itself mean?

6. What are the some of the  main conflicts in this first section?

7. Do you have any personal knowledge or do you know of anybody who has been involved  with a modern cult? What do you think the appeal of the modern cult is?

8.  Why did Sophie not want to go to Capri? Why did she go?  Given her rough start, what would you say the prospects are for a successful time?

9.   How many contrasts are there in this section and how are they variously presented? What is their effect? Were there any instances of  imagery you particularly liked?

10. We have  a lot going on here in this carefully crafted first section: how  many parallels so far can you identify? (let's keep a list)

11.  What foreshadowing did you notice  in these first 112 pages? Was the shooting a surprise to you?   Do you think the phone call was from  Ely? What if she had picked it up on the 2nd ring?

12.  What one thing did you most like about the first 112 pages?

Schedule Pages    4 - 112    June 1 - 7 Pages 113 - 204   June 8 - 14 Pages 204 - 291   June 15 - 22 Pages 292/finish    June 23 - 30

---

Interesting Links NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 Carol Goodman Homepage The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) Cult  (submitted by Marcie) Real or Fictional ?

In the first week of June, Week I  we will not talk about anything other than what is contained in  the first 112 pages. If your question  may pertain to what comes later on, we'll ask you to hold that particular one  for the end, so as not to spoil it for the rest.

Discussion Leaders: Andrea & Ginny

Roman books as  papyrus rolls on shelves with the sillybos on the end.
  A lost Roman funerary relief from Neumagen, Germany.
Thanks to Dr. Sider for locating this for us.



New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!

[marcie]

Ella, you're right that women have not fared well in the written mythology that has been passed down (written by men!). There are quite a few books out about the rewriting of history and mythology. There is anthropological speculation that the first "god" or gods that people believed in were feminine.

Thanks for the link, Suzie. I agree with catbrown that the site should be reliable, although the project says it is not officially managed by Fordham University.

[JoanR]

I couldn't get the Sider book from our library system which really surprised me since they are usually right there with whatever I want.  I ended up ordering my own copy from B&N (it wasn't in our nearby store either).  I'm sure that I'll be referring to it quite often.

Thanks for the link to the Fordham site!  I only have a hazy knowledge of some of the Mystery Religions!

I read the first hundred pages of The Night Villa last fall but stopped when I heard that there was to be a discussion.  That was NOT easy stopping!!!!!  I've just started to read them over again!
I've read and enjoyed 3 other books by Carol Goodman  - she always seems to have such an impressive grasp of the backgrounds of her books - so admirable.  And what a nice lovely person she is to meet!!!
Let's do it AGAIN!

[Gumtree]

Suzie : Thanks for that great link - it looks good to me.


I'm still looking around at 'stuff' -ALF asked aomething about 'fable' so today's 'special' is a definition of 'fable This is from the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary:

Fable: ME. [a F., ad, L. Latin fabula discourse etc. f. fari to speak; See FATE.]
1. a narrative or statement not founded on fact; a myth or legend (now rare): a foolish story; a fabrication, falsehood

2. a short story devised to convey some useful lesson; an apologue. (The most common sense) ME.

3. The plot or story of a play or poem; occas. a play 1678.

4. Talk; discourse, narration (rare)-1598

5. The subject of common talk; a byword 1535

and then from A Dictionary of Literary Terms J.A Cuddon

Fable (L. fabula 'discourse, story') A short narrative in prose or verse which points a moral. Non-human creatures or inanimate things are normally the characters. The presentation of human beings as animals is the characteristic of the literary fable and is unlike the fable that still flourishes among primitive peoples.

The genre probably arose in Greece, and the first collection of fables is ascribed to Aesop (6th C. B.C.). His principal successors were Phaedrus and Babrius, who flourished in the 1st C . A.D. Phaedrus preserved Aesop's fables and in the 10th C. a prose adaptation of Phaedrus's translation appeared under the title Romulus, a work whose popularity lasted until the 17th C. ...

We've also been talking about 'cult'  so here's something on the word itself - again from the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary:

Cult  1617. [ad. L cultus worship. In 19th C. often spelt culte as in F.]

1. Worship -1683.

2. a particular form of religious worship; esp. in reference to its external rites and ceremonies 1679.

3. transf. Devotion to a particular person or thing, now esp. as paid by a body of professed adherents 1711.

 2. the cult of Aphrodite
3. the decay of the Wordsworth cult 1889

I found it interesting that the first meaning given for the word culture is simply worship

[Frybabe]

Thanks for the definitions Gum. I always think of Aesop's Fables and their moral lessons.

So cult is from the Latin and originally simply meant "worship". Then in Roman times it did not have the stigma the word generates today? When I think of cults today, I think of oddball religious beliefs, some harmless, some dangerous.

[marcie]

I found some more information about the origin and uses of the word cult at this site

[ginny]

Oh this is wonderful!! I like that link, Suzie! When I hit one of them (maybe the one on  Eleusinian mysteries) I got the University of Richmond  Classics Home Page, instead but boy was IT interesting, I spent a long time exploring their courses! You can see from the list alone tho what a complex subject and big subject this is, what fun!  We'll add that one to our links in the heading.

Cathy and Suzie, your experiences make me want to take another course, I love what you are bringing here.

 Mippy,  Suzie, Eloise, Gumtree, Frybabe, catbrown, what super additions to our discussion here! I'm loving it already.  We currently have 4 countries represented at our round table here!

Welcome, Ella, and you're in luck, I believe women in antiquity is one of Carol's specialties, we'll learn a lot about that subject, too!

I love the definitions of cult and the links, thank you Gum and marcie. We need these definitions, or I do anyway.

Joan R, be sure it's the first 112 pages, we've got a million questions for the first week, can't wait to see what you all think.

For my part, I've brought two more items of background info, love background info and  since I've got a lot of illustrations, I'll be bringing some in for possible interest.  On the subject of papyri, here  is a fresco from Pompeii, showing one of the two ways they were stored, in this case they look like they are in an umbrella stand. In our permanent heading appearing Monday you'll see another way: how they were stored at the Villa of the Papyri: on shelves.



But they also had wax tablets, as you can see in the case of Justa, and here's an extraordinary example also from a fresco, how they could even appear like a modern "book."



These wax tablets are connected, almost like one of our books! Papyrus was more permanent but see those  little dots in the middle of the page of  wax writings? These  are actually metal studs which, when the "book" was closed, kept the writings separate and not one big wax mishmash.

I am so enjoying Carol's ingenuity with this book. She is SO creative and clever. We'll be  getting up a page as we read  of what's real (or has a base in history) and what's not, sort of a score card, tho she is clear about that in the back, but I think   the difference between the two  or what she's done creatively is astounding. This thing should have won an award, I think. More....

[ginny]

This morning since we were without power for 6 hours while they replaced some power lines, by necessity  I discovered another glossy pretty book on my shelves and was flabbergasted to see a chapter on Justa! Could not believe my eyes.

Slick nice thing, I turned back to the beginning and there was the  Villa of the Papyri, which Carol toured (see her notes in the back), and said no this is not what I meant at all, and proceeded to create her own in the Villa Della Notte. It goes into some pages on how John Paul Getty created  his own  copy of the original, based on Karl Weber's   floor plan around 1750 or so  for his Getty Museum in Malibu CA, has lots of pictures of the museum and  the detail  he put into it, including the cost ($17 million) and the fact that Getty died before it was complete and opened to the public in 1974.

The plantings are of plants favored in antiquity. There are 6 water features. I have never seen the Getty Museum! Have any of you? I have seen some of what came out of the original Villa dei Papiri,  tho.

From the  original, which lies mostly still buried under 65 to 89 feet of pyroclastic matter  came  1,787 volumes or papyri  (800 of which remain to be read), according to this book,  90 pieces of sculpture. 13 large bronze statues, 7 in marble, 18 medium bronzes in medium and small, 32 bronze busts, 15 marble busts. Many are now  in the Museum of Naples (MANN).

They have an entire room of them there,  I've got some photos of them too, if we want them. Has anybody seen them?

This book is called  Herculaneum: Italy's Buried Treasure, and it's by Joseph Jay Deiss, and I thought that name was familiar too, and yes!! Carol mentions IT a lot in the back. It's PERFECT if you can get IT,  just to read the chapter alone  on  the explanation of Justa's lawsuit, the best I have seen, (it's hard to find anything coherent on it on the web) with the startling knowledge that Calatoria herself had been a freedwoman (former slave).

I have had these books a long time and probably would not have ever opened them had it not been for this discussion. I think it's safe to say, based on the two treasures I've already unearthed, that anything Carol  recommends in the back of the book  would be fabulous.   Sort of a Read More About It experience.

I'm getting a lot out of this discussion and books already and the book discussion doesn't start until Monday.  

[catbrown]

Ginny, I've been to the Getty villa and it's quite an experience. Even the long entry gardens are wonderful and transporting. The old Getty (vs. the new modern Getty) reminds of the Cloisters in NYC. A wonderful collection in a wonderful setting completely right for it.

Really, anyone interested in Graeco/ Roman art and archeology should try to get to the Getty at least once. The collection is marvelous: there's even a statue grouping believed to Alexander and Haephaestion, also some very early Greek kouros that are jaw-dropping.

I've only been there once, but would love to go again, particularly since it's now been refurbished.

Cathy

[Gumtree]

Yes, the Getty  looks wonderful - pity it's such a long way for me to swim 

[ALF43]

Ginny, I have seen that picture of the vertical papyri somewhere before, I just can't remember where.  What an exciting find you had.  Imagine right there in your own library!!
It's like your very own archeological dig.

I love museums but I like to go alone and not listen to anyone but a docent.  Most times I am with someone and I can't concentrate on what I want to see.

Gumtree- come on!  You could make the entire Pacific over here by the time we start our discussion on Monday.  The Ocean is warming up at this time of year.

[ginny]

Gum you could set out on your own Odyssey? hahahaa

Cathy, it looks as if it's back open!  I thought it was closed. The  Deiss book contains the reactions of the public when it was first opened:

The initial reaction of some critics to the Getty Museum was one of cultural shock. Largely uninformed about Roman architecture, except for such  bastard descendants as our white marble-columned courthouses or banks, they were unprepared for the colorful flamboyance and opulence of antiquity. Reduced to a kind of negative stammer, they saw the museum as "bizarre"--a bizarre criticism in itself.

The informed opinion was different.

Lots of news here for people interested in classics. The American Classical League will have its annual National Conference, called the Institute, at 62nd Annual Institute at Loyola Marymount University (with a visit to the Getty Villa), in LA.

If you live in LA you can also  see the exhibit on the Roman Villa which was,  until this spring,  at the National Gallery in DC, and get in the Getty free:     
            
Explore the Ancient Roman World Two Ways:
See the exhibition Pompeii and the Roman Villa: Art and Culture around the Bay of Naples at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art, then bring your exhibition ticket to the Getty Villa to gain instant admission and to receive 20% off most items in the Museum Store. Learn more...

LOOK at the great lectures at the Getty: http://www.getty.edu/

hahaa Looks like we need a field trip to the West Coast!

If any of you are remotely interested in the House of the Papyri and you can get your hands on Gaetano Capasso's DVD A Journey to Pompeii (which has half the DVD on Herculaneum also) you can see it reconstructed, including the library. I like to show it to my face to face classes? And it's a stunner watching it rise reconstructed out of the ground, this voice over says ...."but what if...... through some miracle..."and what's there now (almost nothing showing, like a one story adobe house) begins to RISE out of the ground it's imprisoned in,  and then the voice says  once it's up, "and what IF..." and  the gardens and peristyles rise,  and the terraced walkways and the circular,  domed, he calls it a belvedere overlooking the sea rises, I'm telling you it's a goose bump moment. It leaves everybody who sees it slack jawed and wildly enthusiastic.

They sell it at Pompeii and Herculaneum and MANN, in Italy, but it's hard to find otherwise  unless you happen on a traveling exhibit which has one. There's a book too which accompanies it.
   

[Frybabe]

Ginny, I checked Amazon just for the heck of it and found one used DVD of A Journey to Pompeii. Someone wants big bucks for it. Sounds really interesting, but I don't want to shell out almost $150 for it.  Bummer.

[ginny]

That's  a total rip off.

You know what? I have several copies of it due to the university's picky DVD players, I could mail it out if somebody would like to pass it around? It's got an index.

[Frybabe]

Thank you for the offer, Ginny. I'd love to see it.

[ginny]

It's spectacularly worth seeing. If anybody wants to borrow it and pass it on, email me your mailing address and we'll get it in the mail today!

[Suzie]

Was fortunate to see the Pompeii and the Roman Villa exhibit when it was at the National Gallery in DC.  Highly recommend it.

[pedln]

Suzie, I saw it too, at Christmastime, when I was in DC.  I bought the DVD "Pompeii and the Roman Vill" produced by the National Gallery, and have been rewatching it today, after getting caught up with the posts on the discussion site.  A lot to cover there, and a lot of excellent links to explore.

[bellamarie]

Well, I finally finished reading all the pre posts.  Ginny I am so happy to see you are on the mend, what an awful mishap.  I am going to try to get my hands on this book tomorrow.  I hope I get lucky, because this sounds so interesting.  I will admit I have NO knowledge of Latin, and have never read a book by Carol Goodman, so I feel like a newborn babe here.  We sing a few lines of Latin at Mass on certain occasions and that is the extent of Latin.

So, like someone mentioned earlier, I too willl be at the back of the room, confused and full of questions.  I'm not one to shy away from anything I know nothing about for fear of intimidation, so let the learning and fun begin!

[ALF43]

Bellamarie- that would be me sitting there in the back.  Do come join me.  Carol has done a very clever job of explaining things so that we will be able to decipher just WHAT is going on.  It's a great mystery.

Pedln- my goomba, I am so happy to see you here.

[ginny]

Bellamarie! Welcome, welcome! You'll all have to sit in the front, the back rows are mine. Thank you for the nice thoughts.

I think you'll love this discussion. THANK you for reading the previous posts so you'd know where we are!

Pedln and Suzie, I wish I had been able to get to DC to see that, hopefully it will come closer. It seemed that every weekend I was able to fly there, there  were snow storms or something and then it was gone.

I thought of Sophie yesterday, during an interesting  moment in  travel here in SC, I really have empathy for her, starting out as she is, somewhat wounded, but needing to press on despite circumstances, that's good writing. I can't wait to start Monday. There's a lot to discuss here.

AND the author! And a huge super international group to discuss it with. What more could you ask for?

Everyone is welcome, don't miss this one!

[Eloise]

There already so much here on the subject I can't wait for the discussion to start. I looked at length at the Getty Museum site you put up Ginny. So impressive it is it's hard to stop and get on with my work here.

[ginny]

Isn't it? It's even the more poignant to me that he never saw it completed.

[mrssherlock]

Mark

[Frybabe]

I was just over on Google Maps looking at the aerials of Herculaneum and Pompeii. Pompeii's excavations are so much bigger than Herculaneum, so far. It looks like they have been excavating around occupied homes and that some of these homes have also ruins in their back yards. I noted two ampitheaters and one circus in Pompeii. Haven't had time to explore further. Just WOW! Time tp get ready for work.

[ginny]

Welcome, Mrs. Sherlock! Are you just marking your place so you can then hit Show New Replies to Your Post on the top of the page and it will take you to where you left off OR hopefully you're planning to join us? Welcome!

Frybabe, I went to Google Earth, wow, but I can't get my bearings at Herculaneum.  I saved from last year their new map of the site which shows to my astonishment a new walk arching off to the left of the  by the office on the left,  away  the boat houses and the former neato cafeteria, now  under construction, TO the Villa of the Papyri and two other new sites! None of these 3 sites on the new walk were  open to the public, but the Villa of the Papyri to me has always been some sort of fabulous unseen thing and I was gobsmacked to see it there, had to look at that twice! We'll soon be able to saunter right to it from Herculaneum. I can't SEE it on  Google and of course can't find the map but I'll keep looking, I kept it carefully (somewhere). I have not applied to see it but I have an adventure at the Villa Arianna to relate later. Much later

Pat has found this exciting link to: a  Kentucky Professor Intends to Read 2000 Year Old Scroll, printed May 30, so are we au courant here or what? Here's the link, thank you Pat! http://www.kentucky.com/471/story/813136.html

Very exciting, will tomorrow never come?

Everyone is welcome~!

[Frybabe]

Ginny, I just downloaded Google Earth several days ago and haven't really tried it out yet. I am so used to going to Google Maps. I had a hard time finding Herculaneum on Google Maps.

Summer Latin, tomorrow! I'm taking my Cambridge with me to work tonight since there doesn't appear to be any work to do and the supervisor hasn't called me off. I hate sitting around all night doing nothing, but if they want me to sit around all evening doing Latin and reading on their dime, so be it. I like my paycheck! 

[bellamarie]

I am so excited, I was able to get my hands on the book yesterday as the library doors were closing.  So, now I will have to get busy and read to be ready for tomorrow's discussion.  I did get a chance to read Carol's interviews at her web page and must say, I feel as though I know her on a small personal level after learning more about her.  She mentioned she did not submit her first book for some time after her college years, so she gives me hope, since I am an aspiring writer. (are you still considered "aspiring" if you have already had some of your work published?")  I loved how in one of her interviews they asked why she uses looking out of windows as so many settings in her books, and she mentions she sits and looks out of her window and looks at her Rose of Sharon bush as she writes.  It gave me goose bumps reading this, because I too, sit and look out at my Rose of Sharon bush, honeysuckle, day lilies, irises, shasta daisies and various other flowers as I write.  It amazes me how the beauty of nature can inspire you.

Anyway, I must get off of here, since, "dum loquor, hora fugit"  (Ovid) Don't let this fool any of you, I cheated and looked it up.  lol

I can't wait to begin learning from all of you, each of you bring so much experience and knowledge to the discussions.  Until tomorrow........

[ginny]

I tell you what, this is an exciting place to be lately! We've got people studying  Latin   on their own over the summer in our summer workshops, and I didn't know you were a writer, Bellamarie!!  I am not surprised because of the way you express yourself here.

That is another thing about this book: there is so much that touches each person personally that they can relate to, and we've all got different triggers here, this is going to be a great one.

[ginny]

 It's June 1 somewhere in the world!

Welcome, welcome welcome, pull up a chair and grab some nachos and some lemonade and let's discuss this book!

As you can see Andrea and I have decided to jump the   gun a little to be sure we're up and rolling early tomorrow, June 1, a little precaution against weather.  If you scroll  UP you'll see a brand new heading, many thanks to Pat for her help with it, with all kinds of great  (we hope) possible topics  to spark your imagination.

Visualize yourself in a circle in your living room, it's YOUR turn to host our book club. (You really cleaned the house too didn't you?) hahaaa  You've had to bring in chairs, because there are 27 of us from 4 countries,  including the author!! We've made a nice round circle here, let's talk. About everything.

We  KNOW you have tons of ideas and reflections and opinions on this book. The trick here is not to ignore anybody. If, in your own home, Eloise suddenly made a point about Jim Jones, you wouldn't ignore her and say, oh  how about those Mets? And we won't here either: that is our goal.

PLEASE please be good hosts here and talk to everybody about what they have said. Yes there are topics in the heading (and I think they are good  to start with, we'll want yours up there also), but you don't have to reflect on any of them, do your own thing, what do you want to talk about?

This is not a class, unless we consider Carol the teacher of everything  she has written in this book  and why she wrote it, , so picture us noshing and reading in YOUR house (shame about that dog of yours, you really should have taken him to obedience school and let's discuss.

Oh and we need this, too:

IF you have a question FOR Carol, please put in the subject line of your post QUESTION FOR CAROL so she can tell who you are asking, the group or her?

[ginny]

I'm going to start out with Question 12:  what I liked about this book. Or try to pick one thing: we can all come back more than once. You'll laugh at me but I loved the scene on the bathroom floor in the hotel. I loved the entire Naples adventure, the humor in the dying nun's breath of the air conditioning: I laughed right out loud.  She ends up

lying flat on the stone floor so that I can see the tiles better.

That cool cool bathroom floor, the… what do you CALL this type of writing? Is it irony?  Humor? It certainly endears the character to the reader. Love it. That first person narration  ("I") and point of view  is very effective here.

And of course I see now why the air-conditioning wasn't necessary—the floor is deliciously cool! I lay my cheek on it and feel  waves of cold emanating my from the stone…"

(page 109) and then she's off again in her reflections,  thrown into "like dioramas in a Disney ride" of "Hades stealing Persephone and her mother Demeter ravaging the earth…"

I love that. I can't see how somebody could write like that who didn't at one time or another end up on a bathroom floor, I know I have. (Maybe we need a Society of Bathroom Floor Survivors) hahaha . I've also been in southern Italy and had the "air conditioning" arguments, it's so true, depending on your hotel choice.  You can't take a shower because you get hotter, you can't blow dry your hair because it won't dry, the heat from the blow dryer makes it wringed with sweat.

 I love the contrast here, the similes, the  imagery, the REAL juxtaposed with the ancient myth. The PRESENT against the PAST. The imagery of the allusions.

I don't know where I've seen this type of writing  before, and I am not sure how to categorize it, but for imagery and contrast and parallels, it would be hard to beat. Did you also notice that if we were making soup we have the entire elements for everything IN the book in this first section?

Oh and here's a score card we're beginning, it's in the heading, called Real or  Fiction? We'll add to it any time you'd like, just shout it out!

What did you like best or want to talk about?

[winsummm]

what do I like best about this book?  the writing . . . In fact I downloaded her first novel which is also first person present point of view which I like and asked google for declinations of puella because I remember just a little and it took me back to the days when I too had to memorize declensions of nouns and verbs.

 As  for the latin students in here, there is more of that in LAKE OF DEAD LANGUAGES than in this one, but this relates to much of my art history background so I liked it for that as well as everything else.  She is particularly strong in developing her characters. I felt as if I knew all of them.
I have read the book, skipping some of phineas near the end. I wanted to follow Sophie's story in the present more than phineas who was a bit long winded.

claire

[winsummm]

The old getty was local for me since I grew up  in Los Angeles. They had a pleasant outdoor lunch area so we  often went there for that as well as touring the art. There was one sculpture of venus with an accompanying sign that gave permission to touch her because she is NOT as GOOD as the others, but to please not touch anything else.  She did seem a little greasy.

I never did see the new getty.

Claire

[bellamarie]

Ginny..just reading what you like most so far has made me laugh straight out loud.  In the beginning I did not think Sophie was going to be so much of the character she is.  I was delighted as I began reading all about her childhood, her relationship with Ely, and Elgin and oh so many interesting things with her talks with Charles.

Winsummm...I was a bit confused at first when she used the "first person present point of view ."  I was not so sure I liked it, but as I read more and more, I am able to get used to it.

What I like the most so far about this book, is the mysteries it entails.  There is so much going on with every character.  I have a notebook and pen beside me taking notes, hoping to help figure each one of these personalities out.  I must say, Carol has me coming and going and as delusional as Sophie is/was, in the hospital and hotel room.  I think I actually am dizzy.

Me being of Italian descent, I am thrilled to see more Italian, rather than Latin in the book so far.  Its Bellisimo, will check back again later today.  Until then, ciao.

[bellamarie]

Oh by the way....you all ignore my dust bunnies hanging in the corners of my living room.  I will get to them one day.  Just been too busy having fun to worry about them.  I'm sure none of you will mind, we are among friends.

[Gumtree]

There's lots to like in this book - but for me way and above all else it is a simple thing - I just love Elgin being named Elgin. How apt.

Then there are all the classical allusions tumbling over and jostling one another as they stir up my memory bank - and about which I hope to learn more as we go.

[Gumtree]

Of Pythagoras I know very little but I do remember his theorem from my school days... For a right angled triangle, the square on the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the squares on the other two sides...or words to that effect.

  The 3, 4, 5 right angled triangle can be seen as the typical case - on this right angled triangle the hypotenuse has a length of 5 units and the shorter sides have a length of 4 units and 3 units respectively.

i.e  3²= 9   4²= 16    5² = 25
             9 + 16  = 25

This was known before Pythagoras but he is credited with being the first to find a general proof.  In A Concise History of Mathematics Dirk J. Struik says:

As to Pythagoras' theorem, the Pythagoreans ascribed its discovery to their master, who was supposed to have sacrificed a hundred oxen to the gods as a token of gratitude. We have seen that the theorem was already known in Hammurabi's Babylon, but the first general proof may very well have been obtained in the Pythagorean school. Where the Babylonians saw it primarily as an achievement in mensuration, the Pythagoreans conceived it as an abstract geometrical theorem.

The Tetraktys is a triangular number - an equilateral triangle with each side being 4 units long.

 Here's a quote you might like - it's from Mathematics From the Birth of Numbers by Jan Gullberg:

Arrangements of dots to represent numbers as geometrical figures, found as far back as Stone Age rock carvings, were of special importance to the Pythagoreans (c. 6th century B.C.), who imparted numbers with specific characteristics and personalities and believed that everything could be explained by numbers. Mystic or divine attributes of numbers were prevalent also among the Babylonians, ancient Maya, and most other ancient cultures.

The Pythagoreans demonstrated many of the arithmetic features of figurate numbers.

Beyond serving as number games, figurate numbers lead to interesting and useful progressions and series of numbers and they give us ways to visualize and geometrize relations between various sorts of numbers.

Triangular numbers are the natural numbers which can be drawn as dots and arranged in triangular shape: 1, 3, 6, 10, 15, 21 etc.

Of all numbers 10 was held in greatest reverence by the Pythagoreans; the sum 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 10 was named tetraktys "the holy fourfoldness" , representing the four elements: fire, water, air and earth.

My brain hurts when I have to think about mathematics so now I'll go have a strong cup of tea and quiet rest on my bed - reading of course!







 

[kidsal]

Some things I found on narthex and Bacchoi:

narthex
as Plato writes, "Many are the narthex-bearers, but few are the bakchoi" (Ancient Mystery Cults, p. 34) -- a narthex being a symbolic cane of Dionysos, bakchoi mystics of the cult. For non-mystic women, a Dionysiac rite might just be a rare night of dancing, drinking and ritual sex.
"It is possible that old forms of puberty initiation were still preserved in sexual initiation" as part of Dionysiac rituals, Burkert writes in Greek Religion, p. 292. As with women at the Anthesteria, "not virgins, but only women could be bakchoi, and married couples could be initiated together."
NOW:  Long, narrow porch, usually colonnaded or arcaded, crossing the entire width of a church at its entrance. The narthex is usually separated from the nave by columns or a pierced wall. In Byzantine churches the space is divided into two parts: An exonarthex forms the outer entrance to the building and bounds the esonarthex, which opens onto the nave.

[ALF43]

What a rocking start we off on here at SeniorLearn with Sophie Chase.  Forget the dust bunnies bellamarie!  My husband is away on a golf outing for the week and my house is not ready for any company.  So-- I'll sit down here with you ladies, if I may, and talk about Sophie's adventure.

Thank you so much Gumtree for the information on tetraktus.  I didn't even think that was a real word, much less a real Pythagorean symbol.  Even though it was the simplest "representation of the theorem, I couldn't wrap my head around the importance of the 3-4-5 signal, "the warning framed in a numerical code " used by Ely.
It all seems to make sense to me after reading your post.

And I love this re. the 4 elements.

Of all numbers 10 was held in greatest reverence by the Pythagoreans; the sum 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 10 was named tetraktys "the holy fourfoldness" , representing the four elements: fire, water, air and earth.

Winsumm- I love the writing as well but what I love best about reading a novel together is that everyone brings a piece of themselves to our discussions along with great information to share.  Any of us could find this stuff on Wikipedia but what Kidsal and Gumtree have brought to us right off the "get go", I would be hard pressed to find.  The languages, philosophies  and the culture is over whelming to me.  My book is all marked up with question marks and comments just waiting to be asked aloud.

Claire likes Elgin, our flirtatious blue-eyed, muscular Professor, who likes  "the formality " of a large boardroom to interview the interns.  It made him feel more imposing  
Speaking of contrasts- he was raised on a pig farm!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Give me a break Elgin.
He's quite the egotist isn't he?  pg. 46 is filled with a ga-zillion I's from the mouth of Elgin.

I came as soon as I heard you ere discharged from the hospital,  I knew you'd bounce back..
I said at her funeral..
I said her memory would stay....
I said.....
I will think of her ......

That pretty much sums up Elgin to me but apparently every pretty gal has fallen for his charms, including our heroine.
Claire- what did you mean his name was apt?  What does Elgin mean?

I don't have time this AM, due to an 8:30 doctor's appt. but when I return I want to talk about contrasts.  ciao for now- Ginny will back in shortly. hahahah "Bathroom floor survivors"- been there , done that, too.  My only regret was it was NOT in Rome.
 

 

[Steph]

Found you all. I thought there would be a separate heading for the actual discussion. I have been a good person and only read to 112.. I must confess that the dreams and hallucinations threw me a bit, but I like the writing and the plot is interesting. I do honestly read for the plot and characters, not so much for whats behind everything. I love the area and would go to Pompei for a month if I could see how to. I want to go to Naples and have been warned off by everyone.. Not a nice place at all.
Sophie is so obsessed still with Eli.. He sounds thoroughly unpleasant to me, so I guess at this point, I do not understand why she is.. Maybe that will become clearer later.