Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online

[ALF43]

 The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

The book can certainly be read on a variety of levels and each one is great in its own way!---Joan R.

(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week  3: Through Chapter 24:
It's All in the Cards


What a chapter! Revelations, surprises,  but even more secrets, what did you make of it?

1 Talk about unreliable narrators, what do you think of Phineas? Is he reliable? Is Ely? Do you believe Ely?

2. Who is the yet unnamed operative still at the site?

3. The cards and their meanings are revealed!!  What are two possible flaws in Ely's plan to use them?

4. " I see Agnes, looking not only very much alive but the picture of health. Her cheeks are pink and her eyes glowing as if she'd just finished a morning jog." (page 232). What's going on with Agnes and why?

5.  Are you clear  on how the two parallel plots intertwine here? We've only got a small section left. What has Phineas's part in the rites got to do with the hunt for the Golden Verses?

6.  What do you think Simon was arguling about with Lyros? What do you think he was struggling to say to Sophie?

7. What do you think Maria was doing on the computer?  (page 206) Do you buy her emergency family trip?

8. Betrayal as  a theme has just raised its head. How is it paralleled exactly in the two plots?

9. How much do you think Maria saw when she came to look for Sophie? Why couldn't Ely have taken her to land somewhere instead of the swim?

10. "....be careful not to hurt Agnes or Agnes's woman professor." (page 279). What need has Lyros of Agnes's woman professor?

11.  What do you think is the most important part of this section and why?

12. What does Sophie's dream about Odette mean? What is meant by the wrong pan and the wrong day? (Babi)

The Temple of Poseidon
Sounion, Greece
Where "Phineas"  got the scrolls

Schedule Chapters 17-24 for June 15 - 22 Chapters 25-End for  June 23 - 30

---

Interesting Links NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 Carol Goodman Homepage The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) Cult  (submitted by Marcie) Real or Fictional ? Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants

Discussion Leaders: Andrea & Ginny

Floor Plan of the Villa of the Papyri by Karl Weber, 1750-.




New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!

[ginny]

Oh I love to speculate in a mystery, that's what you do anyway, when you read,  right?  Sort of part of the fun of discussing a mystery as one giant brain. I don't remember how it ends, can you believe that?  I read it so fast last year before our fabulous meeting with Carol. But I have read it up to our current part 3 times, all sorts of exciting possibilities, am I the only one speculating?

When I read a mystery I'm thinking all the time. Could XX be the one?  Could YYY? I am almost NEVER right. All i remember about the end of this book is I didn't see it coming.


I'll stifle. hahahaa But I'm thinking all the time. I have to say I'm convinced I'm right. (That means I'm dead wrong). And feel particularly brilliant about it also. hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 Maybe at the end if we don't know what the cards mean we should ask Carol, a good idea, Deems.


What would you all like to say here on the last two days, lots of great points raised here by our readers.

Welcome back, Eloise!

[ginny]

I thought, since we've been talking about earthquakes and several of you have mentioned drilling in the fictional Villa Della Notte, and how close the modern  city is to  the real Herculaneum and the Villa dei Papiri,   you might like to see some recent (2008, 2006)  shots of Herculaneum.


Herculaneum (and the Villa of the Papyri) will have to be cut out of rock but you're right the city IS close.



This is on the way in. If you can just see the little people in white on the very back of the photo, they are crossing a bridge to enter Herculaneum?

And it's WAY down there, in some cases is it 69 meters of solid rock? The amazing thing to me is how close the modern city of  Ercolano  comes, you can literally look up from the ruins and see wash on the line, it really makes it come alive. Here if you can see it are people descending into Herculaneum (restaurant on the upper left) and wash (white blob) on the right top.

But it's a lot lower than people think:


Above  looking down at the boat houses on what used to be the shore (!!) where they recently found so many bodies.



Above going in on a bridge over the ancient city.




The houses of the modern city Ercolano come right up to it, but there's no use for the homeowners to dig in the basement for artifacts and you can see why.

[ginny]

We've been reading about the earthquakes, they just had a big one in the 80's and it really shows.

Here in the  Villa Arianna in Stabiae you can see the damage clearly:

On the walls:





and on the floor

[ALF43]

Ginny, did you take these?  These pixs are spectacular?  On that 1st picture when you said the city is close where the people are entering Herculeneum, where are they entering FROM?  

Above  looking down at the boat houses on what used to be the shore (!!) where they recently found so many bodies

Where was the shore?  Where all of the foliage now stands?

Over the bridge where the ancient city was- which city?  Pompeii or Herculeneum?  Were these two cities right on top of one another-- that close?
I guess I'm confused as to where this modern Ercolano is.

Where is this Villa Arianna, is it in Herculeneum where you visited?  Do people live in there still after that last earthquake? 

Are you going back there?  Tell me NO!!!!

[winsummm]

ginny what a wonderful post the text as wel as the pictures.  I tried to save he whole page with the FILE  SAVE AS  feature. your own enthusiasm brings it alive for me.  good good good job.

claire

[bellamarie]

ROFLMAO.....If someone came in and read these last few posts for the first time they would think our book club has lost its minds.... tarot cards, prophecies, foretune tellers, black balls and calling cards, all we need is a ouigi board.  I just can't bring myself to comment on all this mumble jumble.  There's not only red herrings, but black magic, violet wine skies, red and yellow poppies, and rotten fish to boot! I reserve the right to wait for more information.  Since we have only one day left, I'm  going to go ahead and read the next assigned pages.  If Carol was half exhasted in writing this book as we are running around trying to figure out these clues, I'd say she needed a longggggg vacation on a nice beach some where when she finished.    

Ginny, go draw up a nice bubble bath, light some scented candles, pour yourself a nice glass of wine (I prefer Lamsbrusco myself) relax and breathe......

Those pictures are fantastic, thank you.

Ciao for now................................

[PatH]

Eloise and Gumtree, I have the best of both worlds; I AM into mysteries, and I'm very interested in the archaeology.

Gumtree, even some of us who haven't been lucky enough to get to Australia have been exposed to the swagman who stuffed a jumbuck into his tuckerbag in Waltzing Matilda, even though we needed the footnotes to know what in meant.

[PatH]

My problem with Tarot card meanings is that there are too many possibilities--reminds me of horoscope readings from the paper.   My guess is we'll find out later what these cards mean and we might as well wait.  No real point in speculating, is there?  It does seem that the cards spook Sophie a little[/b]. 

Also, some of the cards aren't even Tarot figures.  Maybe we've got mixed media.

You're right, reading a Tarot fortune is an act of creation and you can make what you want of it.  I bet you remember some rather creative Tarot readings in Robertson Davies' books.

[ALF43]

Please don't forget to post your questions for Carol for this week.  We will be contacting her soon and she'll respond to all of your inquiries.

Bella- it is kind of humerous when you combine them all together like that.

Andy

[Deems]

Thanks for the photos, Ginny.  They are wonderful.

PatH--Right.  We're not talking about Tarot cards here.  These are little cards with things like frying pans on them.  IF the Tarot deck were involved, we surely would have had the hanged man by now.  He always figures prominently.

Andy--The old coast line was down by the boat houses which you can identify in the photo because they look like little aqueducts, side by side, at least 8 of them by my count.  Bottom of photo.  I'm no expert on ancient cities (ask Ginny) but I think it was the practice to build one city on top of an old one, and then another, and so forth. 

Bellamarie--I'm with you, time to read the next section.

[ALF43]

Deems, are you serious, one atop the other?  I thought only graveyards built one on top of the old one.  brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[PatH]

The site of ancient Troy has something like 9 layers of cities.  I forget if they are still arguing over which one was Homer's Troy.

[JudeS]

QUESTION FOR CAROL

Just as I was interested in the name Elgin I was also interested in the meaning of Lyros.  It is a city in Greece , a mystical Kingdom where humans and elves interbreed, much related to music themes and even lyros Herkulaneum-an 8 inch friction cord.

The question to Carol is : Did she choose names with secret meanings or just at random?

   .

[Deems]

Hey Andy, a good site is a good site.  Don't want to waste it just because the ruins of an old city are there.

Pat H.--That's a lot of layers at Troy, obviously a Great Site!

[Mippy]

Ginny  ~  The photos are terrific!

The other city that comes to mind is Jerusalem, where archaeologists have uncovered layers and layers going way back into the ages of the Bible.   Actually many places in Israel have been unearthed with histories like that!  

[ginny]

I am so glad you liked the photos! I got blown off again by a storm, our drought is officially ended.

I love the cards, I love that sort of mystery, it really reminds me of Simon Brett's Christmas Crimes at Puzzel Manor (spelled for a reason). But HE will tell you the puzzles as you go,  after you get a chance to match wits with him. Except for the last one. He never says! It's up to you, Gentle Reader.  Love that book, just love it, so fun to read with friends and try to figure out the ingenious challenges per chapter.

Herculaneum is a little different from other ancient cities built one on another, as it lies  buried under as much as 79 meters of solid rock and mud, thrown by Vesuvius in 79AD and hardened.  It was rediscovered in the mid 1700's.   After a long time a different town called Resina was built there, and modern Ercolano (Herculaneum in Italian) now replaced that. The soil is not soil  with layers like Troy of 9 cities or 11 cities: it's solid volcanic rock, unlike Pompeii which was buried under ash, two completely different natural disasters from one volcano. Herculaneum is closer, see map below.

Here's another photo of how close the town is: ruins below, modern city above:



Andrea, yes I took the photos. Thank you Claire and Everybody, I think they fit the discussion.

On that 1st picture when you said the city is close where the people are entering Herculeneum, where are they entering FROM?  





 (I blew up the photo but lack the ability to put arrows on it) The people are actually entering and exiting, that used to be the exit, but in 2008 they would be entering here. They would have come  from the area from which the photo was shot.

To enter Herculaneum you cross the ruins of Herculaneum, the ancient city,  on a huge bridge,  and look down (see the next to last photo originally posted ) and walk a LONG way, all the way across the ruins, to the place where the photo was shot (see the green railing?)


The real Villa dei Papiri is to the left here from this point  down a road. Normally to enter the ruins you'd then walk again up to  where the people are,  and  take the  path angling straight down   , normally they won't let you cross that bridge the people are on  to get in, to the area which Deems has identified correctly as the boat house area, those arches were the boat houses for the water which is no longer there. It's  a very atmospheric walk, somewhat spooky.

Once in the ruins you  would exit from the top where you can see the people. That's the way it normally is. In 2008 you simply go where the people are and enter that way because of all the construction.


Over the bridge where the ancient city was- which city?  Pompeii or Herculeneum?

Herculaneum

 Were these two cities right on top of one another-- that close?
I guess I'm confused as to where this modern Ercolano is.

See above, modern Ercolano is  slap over the ancient city Herculaneum. See Map below for where Pompeii and Herculaneum are.

Where is this Villa Arianna, is it in Herculeneum where you visited?  Do people live in there still after that last earthquake?  

The Villa Arianna is one of several huge summer homes built on the seaside here in Stabiae:  In one place in the book they mention looking out at Misenum, which is also on this map.

Since you asked, see  below for the  Villa Arianna, also 2000 years old, also a ruin.  Tell you no about going back there? Not with a broken leg this  year unfortunately, doggone it, have had to cancel.

[ginny]

Since Andrea asked about the Villa Arianna it might be useful to know that the gigantic Villa dei Papiri was not the only colossal home in the region.

In A Regional Muse (page 397) Carol relates her trip to the  Villa Della Papyri and I had the most marvelous adventure to the Villa Arianna  last year  (Italy is magic anyway), and since it's similar to the one Carol relates in the Muse, I thought I'd share it, you might be interested.

I had seen the DVD and traveling exhibit  Stabiae and  I wanted to see the Villa Arianna, (also excavated by Karl Weber)  and the Villa San Marco, both huge villas (but there are more in the area), located  in  Stabiae.  Many of these mammoth villas were summer houses and sat on the edge of a cliff to take advantage of the view. Since I am not crazy enough to drive in Italy, I use a local driver and it's a good thing I did.

 "Arriving" at the Villa Arianna (a side street in a slum  in the city of Castlemaria de Stabiae)  he pointed out to me that there were  no signs,,  nothing on the street to indicate we were there. We turned off a rough city street  into a rougher looking empty lot of rock and dirt: nothing, and no signs. We stopped and got out. Huh?

There was a long dirt road like a driveway to the left  which you could clearly see led to the back of somebody's back yard and a couple of tin outbuildings, and little  pens and so forth, er….I turned to say well let's go instead  to the Villa  San… and he immediately set off walking  down this private driveway trail, ending up in the guy's back yard. Horse, chickens, pigs? In the city.  Vespa parked, horse eating grain,  no owner to be seen but he must be there. He pointed this out laughing. Er… ah…. I'm thinking how embarrassing is this, let's get out of here and it's a good thing I have known you for years or I'd be spooked. (Sophie and I are a lot different radar wise) hahahaa

But before I finished that sentence he spun and there on the right was a long rock and dirt road to a small metal building WAY down there and nothing else,  with three motorcycles and a car outside and two women hanging about the motorcycles neither of whom looked …well it did not look like something anybody wanted to walk into.

Er...let's go.......says I.  Driver heard "go," and struck  out down the road, and after much happy conversation  in Italian  it appeared  we had actually arrived!  But where's this colossal villa?

Out,  after more  conversation in Italian,  came a  guard from the tin box. We were to climb down, he and I.   Steps. The Villa lay below.  (Boy was it) He only spoke Italian and one leg was shorter than the other so he had a bad limp, I felt very bad because it was a long way down but he walked better than I did. The rooms were almost all locked.  


  He had to unlock almost every one with a key: we were the only ones there, and even partially unexcavated it is HUGE!!

The Villa Arianna is 140,000 square feet, not all of it open or restored, but enough of it to kill you.

The more interest I showed, (I mean it just never stopped)  the more animated he became and the more determined he was that I understand what I saw, we formed quite the camaraderie, despite the fact it must have been 200 degrees in the shade  and my Italian is strictly limited to "Italian in 7 Days for  Travelers."

The earthquake photos above are from this same   Villa Arianna, perched on a cliff, he gave me to understand all the modern  houses beneath had been covered with the water at one time, which came right up to the Villa.  It's amazing how you can communicate without adequate vocabulary.

Here is a piscina  (I did know that one word)  a fish pool, in which fresh fish were kept for the kitchens, which are behind that sign.

Here is some of the wall decoration:



Here is my guard  friend in one of the many decorated atria.


He never tired or flagged in his enthusiasm, which grew and grew and I am quite sure he would much rather have been elsewhere. We were there forever. Room after room, it was incredible. As we left and passed the tin guardhouse, and he went in, I told him mille grazie and  multo gentile which is the only way I know to say thanks and  you've been very kind.  He was pleased and went on into the tin hut,  and before we got three feet out popped the other guard calling " You like coffee?" hahaha Magic.


THAT'S Italy, to me. We had to decline because we were off to the  65,000 sq ft Villa San Marco, which the U of Md is doing so much work in.

This gigantic Villa San Marco  (which is the one previously shown in the discussion with the blasted out holes in the walls) is likewise a treasure.

MUCH easier to access, but my driver ended up giving directions to several cars of German tourists, because the signs are not good there either.



This gives you some idea of the courtyard, looking across to the continuing peristyle which surrounds it: the inner areas are so vast you can't get them in a photo. This villa had its own private Thermal Baths.

Here's the reflecting pool they are reconstructing:



Nice Europa and the Bull mosaic on display:



Bull  closeup:




And here at the  Villa San Marco are found some paintings  on the walls which are amazing. Long thought to be fantasy houses, or imaginative renderings,  they are now thought to be actual depictions of the actual luxurious villas which lined the coast.  There are a LOT of these, everywhere in the area, and all different!




But if you could see the reconstruction of the Villa della Papyri, now in circulation in DVD form, you would gasp. And we haven't even mentioned the giant Oplontis.

 

And now we're in our last day of this section, any parting thoughts or things you'd like to talk about??

[Babi]

Why can't that person simply leave a message in English?

  [From the heading]
   Very good question, and I hadn't thought about it before. What was the  point in leaving the cards.  If someone wanted to convey a messge to Sophie, what was wrong with plain English?  Of course, that wouldn't have been very
interesting, would it?  I think we must just put this one down to a means of
keeping the reader intrigued.  And it has certainly succeeded in that, hasn't it?

[ALF43]

OMG Ginny, these are just incredible photos.  I know how you love travelling to Italy and your eye shows it.  I have a few comments about what you've shown us here in these pixs that you took with Igor but am scheduled for nursery duty today at church.

Out,  after more  conversation in Italian,  came a  guard from the tin box. We were to climb down, he and I.   Steps. The Villa lay below.  (Boy was it) He only spoke Italian and one leg was shorter than the other so he had a bad limp, I felt very bad because it was a long way down but he walked better than I did. The rooms were almost all locked.

Did he have a hunchback by any means?

I had no idea (and I read the Pompeii book) that Herculeneum was closer to Vesuvius than Pompeii.
The villas are amazing, beautiful, old and wonderful to look at through your lens.
I am so sorry that you can not return this year, I feel  so bad for you as I know how much you love Italy.

I shall return.
Again, thank you for sharing your treasured pictures with us here.  I can't believe how it actually takes me right to The Night Villa.
I know Ginny, The NV is fictitious.

[bellamarie]

I heard a statement yesterday that was interesting, I was watching the movie International with Clive Owen, and he is trying to reveal that the IBBC is involved in selling meaningless weapons to terrorist nations.  When is is trying to get the officials to agree to go after the IBBC the supervisor says, "The difference between truth and fiction is, fiction has to make sense."    hmmmm  so some where in the next pages, I am assuming this is all going to make sense.

Off to church as well so check back later.


Ciao for now...................

[Gumtree]

Ginny: Thank you for sharing your photos - they're  just wonderful to see and I loved the commentary of your tour of  Villa Arianna. It sounds just fabulous.

I'm reading David Sider's book about the Villa dei Papiri - it's amazing how much information he conveys about the history of the discovery of the papyri as well as about the villa itself. Doesn't your heart bleed for all the papyrus rolls that were destroyed when they tried to unroll them. I wonder how many were actually lost. Shame they didn't wait a few centuries for the  multi spectral imaging techniques to come along and do the job of deciphering them.

[Deems]

Thank you, Ginny, for the fine  photos and the fascinating narrative.  I felt as if I were in the car with you, also speaking no Italian, and communicating with gestures (I don't even know the twenty words for travellers).  I loved seeing that long bridge you have to cross to get to the ruins--it looks very long indeed. 

Mille grazie, Ginny.

[Eloise]

Thank you Ginny for those wonderful photos. I plan on coming back to them often. I sent them to my son so he might be tempted to bring me there next September when I visit him.

[pedln]

Ginny, your photos are wonderful, and all the information you are giving us so valuable.  I think back now, to twenty years ago this summer when I made my one and only trips to Capri, Pompeii, and Herculaneum.  It wasn't a waste, but I was a no-nothing tourist, and I would be aware of and learn so much more if I went again, now.  When did you first visit this area.  I know you've seen changes over the years.  I am so sorry you had to cancel your trip.

_________________


Are we to make anything about the twins -- the servants at the villa in Capri -- Guilla and Theresa?  We already know of the likeness between Iusta and her mother.  And we know about the Pythagoreans beliefs in likenesses and opposites.  So here we have identical twins who are opposites -- one who smiles and has loved,  one who never smiles and has never loved.  Will they play a part in the remainder of the book?

I'm trying to fit the cards into likenesses and opposites --

Sun  ---    Moon
Broom --
Falling man --
Masked man --
Frying pan --

I give up for now.

[Frybabe]

More amazing photos, Ginny. Do they know who lived in the Villa Arianna and Villa San Marco? I love the mosiac with Europa and the Bull. Do you think I can get my contractor do do that for my bathroom remodel at a reasonable price?  Hah, not a chance!

[ginny]

I am so glad you all liked them!!

 Eloise, I hope you can take a day trip south when you come, I am sure your hosts want you to see everything you can! As spectacular as the villas at Stabiae  are, Oplontis would be my choice if I only had a day. You know how it goes, if you only have a day? I'd go to Pompeii first and then on the same train that goes back to Naples, you go instead toward Sorrento and you stop at Torre Annunziata and about a block from the  train station is Oplontis. Signage is perfect and clear.  Nobody is ever there, and there is nothing like it anywhere..

Just look:    http://ad79.wetpaint.com/page/Oplontis

It's jaw dropping and now I see they've started on another one. Oplontis has just been emerging since the mid '60's.

Margie, no they don't know who lived in the Villa Arianna.  The book In Stabiano says,

Unfortunately the true identity of the owners of this villa, albeit of a high social class, remains a mystery. We know only that of the 91 Roman aristocrats who owned property along the coast from the latter part of the Republican era to the  Empire, two names are cited for Stabiae: Marcus Marius, a friend of Cicero's who himself spend some glorious days in a villa...whose view of the sea from a cubicle remained impressed upon the mind of the writer, and Pomponianus, who sheltered Pliny the Elder the tragic night of the eruption between 24 and 25 August AD 79, and whose villa was equipped with a landing-place.

Did you catch that 91 Romans owning these palaces? And only a very few are so far found.

Oplontis was thought popularly  to have been owned by Poppaea, the Empress Nero's wife and it's opulent enough for an Empress and the art is out of this world. I would NOT miss it on any trip to Pompeii or Herculaneum. The average visitor spends 2 hours in Pompeii so it's doable. Hard as that is to believe.

Margie, makes you want to pick up a tile and a hammer doesn't it? hahaha

The Twins, I still think the Twins are going to account for something, good thought on opposites, Pedln!  I've been to Pompeii something like 16 times, I've really lost count, some years I go every day, have been going now for 24 years but not this year. Much less in Herculaneum and Ostia which I really like.

Gum, ISN'T that the most amazing book? SOMEWHERE in one of the books is an itemized list of how they tried to open them, all the methods they used, absolutely incredible. There's no telling what they lost. Loved the bit about they would ruin the inside which was about their best bet for reading. I guess it's a good thing half of Pompeii is still buried but they really are doing amazing restoration.


hahaa Bellamarie, I hope you're right on the fiction has to make sense! If not, it's been a good ride, I've loved the entire experience.

I am glad you liked the photos Andrea, the guard in one of them IS the person who took me down. He was actually quite handsome if somewhat short, and VERY nice.

Deems you are right, the bridge and the huge arched iron gate you have to go thru first are VERY impressive, it's quite well done.

Babi that's a good point, let's see if Ely answers it!

But now back to our story, I just about jumped out of my seat! Tomorrow's the DAY!

What fun!

[ginny]

1. Was there an actual "The Reverend F. P. Long, MA, Sometime Exhibitioner of Worchester Coillege"...who was  "Published by the Clarendon Press in 1911?"

2. The statue of Nyx is beautifully described.  Where did you get the idea for it?

[bellamarie]

QUESTION FOR CAROL

Carol, When you wrote NV, did you ever get confused with so many different books you were using for your research and material?

[Frybabe]

Spectacular website, Ginny. I've bookmarked it. I was just reading some of the Graffiti they found. 

[joangrimes]

Ginny,  I enjoyed your photos.  You are bringing back memories of my last trip to that area which was a couple of years ago.

Thanks for the link to the Oplontis site.  That was my favorite place.  I took a gillion photos there but alas I have not idea where they are.  It is truly spectacular. I am sure that I have the photos somewhere.  Some day I will hunt them out just to look at them again and enjoy that beauty.

Joan Grimes

[bellamarie]

Joan Grimes, Wow how exciting to have just been to such a magnificent place just two years ago.  I can only hope to go one day.  My grandparents were from Italy and its my dream to one day see Naples, Venice, and now Capri seems like a for sure don't miss visit.

Ginny, so you have been so many times you have lost count.  How blessed you are to be able to travel. I am jealous....OOPS after reading this book, I won't use that word too loosely.    I hope your leg has mended so you will be able to pursue your adventures.

Can't wait to begin discussing the next pages.  WOW! if I can trust what has  been revealed in this section, which I am not 100% sure I do, then my first theory and suspicions are holding true.  But then as someone pointed out, there are red herrings and for some reason I am suspecting a set up.   Hmmmm....let the discussions begin.

Ciao for now.....................

[bellamarie]

Ginny,  I checked out your Oplontis site.  Beautiful pics, but I do not recommend wandering into the "Writings on the wall" section, very gross and sexual sayings inscribed.  How sad, it seems from this book, and the research I have done, and now this, only confirms to me, that women were so horribly used and abused for the sake of men's pleasures, and some women's as well.  And the bisexuals, homosexuals and acts even with animals, shows how "love" did not enter their hearts.  I get the feeling it was all about control, power and possession.  tsk tsk

 

[PatH]

I just have time to make a few incorrect predictions before curling up in bed with the next section.

What is Lyros after?  He certainly seems powerfully motivated--he's funded this project, and he's after something.  When he figures out where Phineas' scrolls might be, he speeds up the excavation to a dangerous extent.

Elgin is helping the FBI in their investigation of the cult, and he shows signs of still being fond of Sophie, but I somehow don't trust him to be a good guy.

We have at least two hidden Tetraktys members: one in the expedition and one, cooperating with the FBI, in a "safe" house in Sorrento.  Sophie thinks she has seen Ely several times.  Could he be the cooperator?  It seems a bit much to endure 5 years of silence to infiltrate an organization, though.  Maybe he's on assignment for Tetraktys.

Lyros is the suspect for the Tetraktys in the expedition--so much so that I suggested there might be a second one, and picked Maria, but my reasons occurred in the first few pages of chapter 17.  She obviously has her own agenda too, though.

Simon and George Petherbridge are still rather shadowy.  Suitable "least likely suspects".

And we still haven't even gotten to the murder.

[pedln]

I'm not going to be the first to break open the egg here.   

But I do agree with Sophie -- in spite of his reputation, I'm beginning to like Phineas, too.

[Babi]

PatH

It seems a bit much to endure 5 years of silence to infiltrate
 an organization, though.

 
I agree, PAT. If Ely is now working for the FBI, I would think it more
likely that something happened while he was there that changed his feelings
about the Tetratkys.

 About Lyros, I'm looking at Sophie's feelings re. John’s  advances:  “I have the feeling that when I try to draw in my next breath I won’t be able to, and  for the life of me I can’t tell whether this is attraction or fear.  Whatever it is, I need to get out of the car.”   
  Personally,  I’m a firm believer in paying attention to one’s gut instincts.  It you feel a strong need to get away,…that’s fear.  And it’s usually well-founded.

 Sophie’s dreams about Odette are definitely telling her something.   My own experience is that dreams can be very informative, bringing to conscious awareness perceptions that have been buried at a sub-conscious level.   In this dream Sophie looks into a pan and sees that it holds a pecan pie.  A pecan pie associates closely with Ely.  Sophie is telling her this is the wrong pan and the wrong day. I suspect that the ‘wrong pan’  is a reference to Ely. I'm not sure
what the 'wrong day' is suggesting.

[Mippy]

The so-called family emergency that caused Maria to run off sounds unlikely.   I can't figure out her agenda at all, nor what she was doing on the laptop, which she slammed shut.  Is this a red herring, or will we find out her role in the following chapters?     

The meaning of the cards, or at least where the cards come from, is given as soon as we start reading this section, so please scratch my question to CarolGoodman.   Apparently it's easy to buy a copy of the "card-game" at a pharmacy in Italy.   However,  it remains confusing about why such cards are used as messages.   Does anyone else understand it?

[ginny]

Good morning! Lots of great thoughts here today as all is revealed...er....some is revealed... or is it?

Who do you trust?

I have to say it was all I could do yesterday when I finished this section last night not to come running in here and   scream I KNEW IT!! I knew it! I was wrong, however,  (I think, or was I on the cards).... I am not sure actually but pegged yon Lyros! YES!!

Don't you hate people who say that? But if you look carefully it's all there. Jumped right up at the  top of page 279: Agnes's woman professor: I had him then! YOU, I said! YES, gotcha!

So he NEEDS Agnes's woman professor. Why?

So I'm 1/1 and have NO idea who the operative/ informant remains, what was going on with Simon and what is happening to Agnes? See heading?

But who is the missing operative/ informant? What is Maria doing? There are only 6 of them in the room (don't you love a locked door sort of mystery? One of YOU is the culprit).... and ONE of them is the informant leaking stuff to the FBI, who is it? Is Lyros the ONLY Tetratkys in the room?

-------Mippy I'll fix the question and if you look up Tombola  della Smorfia you'll find another surprise.

--------Joan G, isn't Oplontis out of this world? It really puts you back in time. The frescoes alone, since this is a modern excavation, they have to leave the stuff pretty much where they find it, it's just you and the tremendous rooms, that GARDEN!, gorgeous wall paintings, just...pretty much indescribable.

---------Bella I am not sure where you and Margie are reading graffiti, but I assure anybody who wants to go to Oplontis you won't see anything but fabulous stuff, or if you do you're better than I am.  Was it in the room that stays dark until you move? The latrine? I don't think most people would look or stay there unless they knew to move about, there's much too much else to see.   I spent half a day there in a dream. No graffiti, not sure what you guys are talking about, I can't seem to find it.  Maybe I should have put this link instead:

http://www.pompeiisites.org/Sezione.jsp?titolo=oplontis&idSezione=1168    which only shows the left half of the building as you look down on it, it's too big to get into the shot.


More in a sec...just had to come in and see the !!! from everybody on the plot! hahahaa

[ginny]

QUESTIONS FOR CAROL

1. How has being a published author changed your life? Do you follow a set schedule for writing? How does it feel to see your books in the bookstores?

[Deems]

Mippy wrote, "The so-called family emergency that caused Maria to run off sounds unlikely.   I can't figure out her agenda at all, nor what she was doing on the laptop, which she slammed shut.  Is this a red herring, or will we find out her role in the following chapters?    Huh "

Me too.  Any time anyone slams shut a laptop, I assume the worse.  What is it that I'm not supposed to see?  As if I could see anything from off to the side here.