Author Topic: Palace Thief (The) by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online  (Read 75852 times)

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #160 on: July 14, 2015, 01:12:55 PM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

July Book Club Online: July 7-31

The Palace Thief
by Ethan Canin






" I tell this story not for my own honor, for there is little of that here, and not as a warning, for a man of my calling learns quickly that all warnings are in vain..."


"For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself, then he has naught"....("My Way" sung by Frank Sinatra)


"This is a story without surprises..." (Mr. Hundert).


Topic #2: The Themes in The Palace Thief


Ethan Canin: The theme has to do with the power of a quiet life… The power of a man to really make a change with his heart, his soul, as opposed to having to be rich. A different kind of idol… A teacher’s life is a very powerful, dignified life. We shouldn’t forget that. That’s what Mr. Hundert loses sight of in the movie, and regains in the end. God bless a great teacher… I didn’t have many. "

Let's look at themes in this story this week. In order to do this we'll first call on you to identify any themes you see running through the book.

-To start out, do you agree or disagree with the author about the theme he sees in the book? Why or why not?

-What are some themes you have noted in the book? We'll put ALL of them up here so we can all discuss them.

----betrayal (ginny)

----nature vs. nurture (Frybabe)

----courage

----fear (Halcyon)

----character and morals

----isolation (Halcyon)

----loss of innocence (Halcyon)

----self survival/self serving (Bellamarie)

----fallibility (Dana)

----power (Halcyon)

----retirement and old age (Topic du Jour 7/14

----

-Other questions raised by our readers:

----WAS Mr.Hunderdt a good teacher, do you think? Why or why not? (Jonathan)

----Was there a character you took an instant dislike to? Who and why? (Pat)

----What is the climax of the book? Why?

----Which of the children was most injured my Mr Hundert's manipulating the grades? (BellaMarie)

----Do you think you would have different feelings about the characters, had you not read the entire fifty pages at once? (BellaMarie) ---Whjat is the most interesting quote from the book, to you? Why? (Jonathan)

-Once we get a list of the themes we can discuss which one we think is the most powerful in the story, what the real purpose of the story IS, and all the questions you have raised as well.




Interesting Links:

Annotations for The Palace Thief from  Chulalongkorn University   *Spoiler: At the bottom of this list of annotations is a set of questions and a link to an interview with the author about what he intended, so if you don't like to see that type of thing at the outset and would rather think for yourself, don't read down that far. We can decide later if he actually did achieve what he intended to show or if he didn't.


Discussion Leader: Ginny


ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #161 on: July 14, 2015, 01:18:40 PM »
On the other hand,  another possibility. I'll play Devil's Advocate.

I  wonder if anybody has considered the fact that most  history tests are objective? You can have 20 points here and 20 "points" there and the "points" are totally at the whim of the instructor. One day he might have pains in his neck and grade more harshly. One day he might be feeling good and everybody gets a higher score.

Objective is not numerical, it is not possible to adjust a numerical score. 13 year olds can count.

In reality giving a student  90 when in fact it might warrant only an 87 on another day or by another instructor, and  we're talking 3 points, is something I bet happens every day. NOT in aid of "cheating."  The teacher wants to encourage XX so he gets a 90  this time.  Because of the objective nature of the subject. It does make a difference if it's a contest, but reality check again: Mr. Hundert is  the judge of who enters the contest, it's his decision, he really does not have to answer to anybody about it, he's chosen to base it on who are the "top three,"  so they can all work toward it,  and it's possible that all the scores for the whole term have probably  been objective,  anyway. That's a hard burden, (did I prefer one student unfairly, you note he's asking himself these questions as he tells US),  for any man to bear. Especially into retirement.

But the reality IS, that objective scores in any subject are just that:  objective. I believe that's what we're talking about here because... it's  not possible to "adjust" a score up or down 3 points if it's numerically scored.  It's simply not possible.

I believe here, (and I realize that I have lost those of you who don't like long posts),  sorry about that, but I believe here that Mr. Hunderdt is doing a little self bashing, self recrimination  in his retrospection and it's entirely possible that his "cheating" that we're so obsessed with excoriating him for might be entirely in his head. Like Jimmy  Carter, he might be expressing what he felt was his desire,  but in reality it might really HAVE been better. He's the only judge of that.


Also, there's  no way on earth had he told Mr. Bell that his son was cheating that the " the horrible truth"  that he considered the paper a 90 and the work was really (by his same consideration) an 87...all objective..could ever have come out or be revealed. It was all in his head.

It can't be a numerically scaled test. He could NOT have adjusted it.


ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #162 on: July 14, 2015, 01:57:55 PM »
I wanted to say to Halcyon, I love your themes, and I put them in the heading, I hope we get to discuss them, especially isolation.  There are all kinds of isolation. I agree with you on retirement, too, hooray for you and the part time job!

I read somewhere that you need three things in old age: something or someone to love, something to  do, and I can't remember the third. Maybe it was something about purpose? I wish I could find that list.

And that's another possibility for the gun! It's entirely possible with Hiram Bell's ego he felt that way.  The gun was a surprising plot twist. I almost want to write the author to find out what he intended. But perhaps knowing what he thought the theme was, is enough to chew on. We will need to decide if, in fact, he met that goal stated in the heading.

But also with retirement, I think, especially if you are introspective like Mr. Hundert, and...well we've seen he refers to his teaching as a "calling," and we know he's proud of his legacy...I think you tend to worry (at least I do) over things that perhaps weren't  in your personal 99th percentile of greatness and perfection you strove for, like probing  a sore tooth with a tongue, over and over, worrying about things you did less than correctly over your long life, and which bother you.  That you can do nothing about now. Including things that nobody else would possibly even pause to think over.  How would you express them, explain them to yourself? Would you do it differently today? Do you regret doing them if they turned out well (or badly?)

 Maybe nobody here is at that point or will never get there.  I think he's there.

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #163 on: July 14, 2015, 02:02:48 PM »
Pat, I'm starting to think of you as Cool Hand Pat. I love the way you express yourself, it looks so clear and logical when you say it.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #164 on: July 14, 2015, 02:32:20 PM »
If this incident of Mr. H. being what today we would consider nasty is included in the story the question becomes why - what part of the dynamics of the story is it meant to play.

At this time in history a teacher was expected to 'whip boys into shape' with the kind of bluster and control shown by Hyram Bell - and yet, even Mr. H. is not only in awe but a little scared of Hyram - that shows us Mr. H. is on the pivotal point of still being a boy like his students (he was probably only in his 20s not long out of collage himself) and he was playing the bully to gain the control of his boys as expected of him or pivotal was being the man in complete control of his class with no concern of the boys liking him similar to Hyram.

In the 40s there was no such word ever uttered of 'self-esteem' - even the idea a student was a 'self' never entered anyone's mind - yes, my experience was benign however, I am remembering the many social gatherings when I was in my 20s and the men, all with half a smile on their face, told of how it was with Brothers walking the aisles in combat boots and other teachers with sticks and and and - then when two or more of these men shared it only sparked knowing laughter between them. It was as if they had walked through a baptism of fire and felt their success was because of their classroom experience.

In the 40s there were very few coed classes after the 6th grade - and if there was no rooms for separation, than in classrooms boys were on one side and girls on the other with boys often leaving the room to learn more than gym but, health and biology and even history was taught in another part of the school, usually in the gym/auditorium.

To have a student come in fresh and immediately set up a clique of boys that were undermining a teacher was just not tolerated. Think the Citadel before it was a co-educational collage - that was the example for boys from the time before they got out of knickers that in city schools were typical till the seventh grade.

Had Mr. H. used corporal punishment, in keeping with the times, than the balance of who had the control could not be carried through the story - There were many examples of one humiliating with meanness another through out the story including the way Charles Ebberly handled retiring Mr. H. 

That could be a question - why do we tolerate meanness adult to adult and yet, we react differently if the meanness is directed at a disruptive boy who quickly established a clique as an aggressive move that affects the dynamics in the classroom on many levels - e.g. the boys not included in the clique now are not sure how they should participate - they will question their loyalty to Mr. H and probably no longer learn on the level they were learning when the class was unified. 

I think had Mr. H. created a clique among teachers he probably would have faired a better retirement but isolated as he had been throughout his life left him as easy pickings. The one time when he trusted and made a friend it bit him. 

This story reminds me of the rash of stories that came about soon after the war - men were no longer shown as the John Wayne type characters - they lived in comparison small lives, doing small deeds - the rise of the anti-hero.

Yes, that is it isn't it - Mr. H. is an example of an anti-hero

The literary standard for an anti- hero include:

Imperfections that separate them from typically heroic characters (selfishness, ignorance, bigotry, etc.)

They lack of positive qualities such as "courage, physical prowess, and fortitude," and generally feel helpless in a world over which they have no control

They often share qualities belonging to villains (amorality, greed, violent tendencies, etc.) that may be tempered with more human, identifiable traits (confusion, self-hatred, etc.) In fact, antiheroes often blur the moral lines between the protagonist and antagonist.

Holden Caulfield, Quentin Compson, Stephen Dedalus, Meursault in Camus' Stranger - who else, Gregory Peck in the Man in the Grey Flannel suit although that was in the 50s. The Othello's and Hamlet's of literature.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Dana

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #165 on: July 14, 2015, 03:49:43 PM »
The depressive is focused on past errors, those with anxiety disorder on future fears.
I just read something like this recently, a Chinese philosopher of long ago ,I believe.   I guess I remember it because it's true. 

I just re-read the story (well, bits of it.....!)
I changed my mind, I don't think Hundert was too nasty in his class (sorry, Bellamarie!)
I do think he was arrogant, imaging telling the senator he would "mould" his son! The senator's reply was spot on.  If a pupil is moulded by a teacher that is perhaps lucky but not deliberately achieved by the teacher.  I think his arrogance, self importance, is why I dislike him.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #166 on: July 14, 2015, 04:36:51 PM »
Oh but Dana I think that is looking through our eyes today - you are right, we could never imagine a teacher molding our children or thinking they had the audacity to suggest such a thing - but that was what most private schools featured even in their advertisements and letters to current and prospective parents - Even private day schools were expected by parents to have teachers instill the moral values and mold their child for the future and so that is why I think the visit to Hyram Bell was an inexperienced teacher that felt intimidated because Hyram would expect Mr. H. to use the bigger than life tactics he uses to be successful as the means to prepare his son for the future -

Hmm another symbol for that gun - an old gun at that - passing along the power and control used at the time to do the historical job as it was known to prepare boys for their future. 

I think that is why the response by the head to Mr. H.'s concern for a student cheating is so startling - if the school is committed to molding these boys than that is not the kind of thinking that we associate with a morality of integrity. And yet, the dichotomy is to be solvent a school elevates boys with potential for future endowments to the school.

Still done today when you hear the interviews with the heads of most collages when they talk about how they select their student body. Charlie Rose has had great interviews with the presidents of several Universities talking about this aspect of funding higher education. 

This story sure stretches us - it brings up aspects of life that we all really share from different viewpoints
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Jonathan

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #167 on: July 14, 2015, 05:00:03 PM »
It's the wildest book I've read in a long time. And I can see, by the posts, it's having a great effect on all of us. Teacher tells all.

The gun was a bribe. A cheap bribe, and I can hear Hiram Bell saying, 'Help my son along.' And the teacher, fascinated by power, in both father and son, is like the moth and the flame. What a story Mr Hundert has to tell. From fudging grades to denying someone the presidency.

'I taught a boy who, if not for the vengeful recriminations of the tabloids, would today have been president of the United States.'

That, for me, is the most interesting statement in the book. Is it really Sedgewick Bell he is talking about? 'Sedgewick was a dull boy.' But he wormed his way into Mr Hundert's heart...and the rest is history.

'Mr classroom was in fact a tribute to the lofty ideals of man, which I hoped would inspire my boys, and at the same time to the fleeting nature of human accomplishment, which I hoped would temper their ambition with humility.It was dual tactic, with which Mr Woodbridge heartily agreed.'

And then the rot set in at St Benedict's, as Mr Hundert tells it. Himself vengeful in the end.

Jonathan

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #168 on: July 14, 2015, 05:08:27 PM »
Ginny, can I suggest 'Grace' as the third need in old age. Grace in all its forms. Earthly and Heavenly.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #169 on: July 14, 2015, 05:39:27 PM »
Oh my - here I really thought this was a dated approach but it appears private schools do still feel their role is in molding the child

http://elementaryschoolzine.tumblr.com/post/121908538923/what-to-find-if-you-want-a-private-school-for-your

Yes Jonathan this is one short read that hits all the buttons - it reminds me of those discussions held on PBS with a moderator and about 14 or 16 successful folks sitting in a semi-circle who are experienced in the topic and a scenario is offered with conflicting moral outlooks and behavior and as the discussion proceeds more of the problem within the scenario unfolds - have not seen it in awhile and do not remember the name of the program but there were several over the years.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #170 on: July 14, 2015, 08:54:12 PM »
That's us, successful people sitting in a circle, I like that. :) Good group to be likened to, too.

They do say "mold" in that description,  Barbara! They sure do. But the way it's written I doubt any administrator wrote it, don't you? But the "mold" thing is alive and well, that's obvious.

This "molding" debate reminds me of my mother. She taught First Grade in the '30's. She graduated from the University of North Carolina and went to SC to teach, living with a family which is what was done then apparently. She had the worst district in the town, I won't name it but its name is legion hereabouts.

She decided (this was the late '30's) to do a lesson in hygiene. So she went out and bought soap and toothbrushes and toothpaste.  Then she did a fun lesson in what one should do and sent them home happily. The next morning she was met by an angry parent in school who threw the things on her desk, saying, " I send her to school for you to larn her, not to smell her."

True story. :)  Not sure any molding there went on but you never know.  It made a big impression on my mother.

Jonathan, Grace you'd want all the time. :) 

I love what you keep saying. 'I taught a boy who, if not for the vengeful recriminations of the tabloids, would today have been president of the United States.'

That, for me, is the most interesting statement in the book. Is it really Sedgewick Bell he is talking about?


I don't know, but I have wondered.  Who else could it be? Could the press somehow have gotten wind of ...what? Could somebody in the press have seen the blazer? Could somebody in the press have been close enough to HEAR what Mr. Hunderdt said? And exposed the liar Sedgewick Bell?

And I LOVE the idea of what is the most interesting statement in the book!!! Let's all say!

Truly a wild book for such a quiet little story!

Barbara, that's interesting, Mr Hundert as anti hero, the evil part does not hold up, for me, but it's an interesting attempt to identify his type of character, which is very elusive.

Dana, interesting on the depressive who focuses on past errors. Depending on what they ARE, that might make anybody depressed. Seriously. It could be a self fulfilling prophesy in a way. Poor Mr Hunderdt has nobody to confide in and nobody who can help chivvy him over it. Of course that may be his fault.

"I think his arrogance, self importance, is why I dislike him."
One of our earlier questions was "Have you ever met anybody like Mr. Hundert?"

Does he remind you of anybody you have ever met?

I really love all the speculation here. And our new challenge: What to you is the most interesting quote in the book? Why?


BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #171 on: July 15, 2015, 02:59:55 AM »
OK although we are not seeing the rational for our aversion to Mr. H. pan out, not only Dana and Bellamaire dislike Mr. Hundert, I think several of us on first reaction had an aversion to him - I am trying to figure out what sentences gave us that impression - Dana and Bellamarie's  feelings cannot be that wrong, even if the rational does not pan out probably because of our twenty-first century look at what we think is appropriate teacher behavior but, let's look -

Y'all may pick up on other phrases or sentences than these. So, back to the beginning again.  I must say re-reading again that first paragraph has many shades of understanding that I never picked up the first time I read it.  We know that most literary instruction on 'how to analyze a Novel' says the summation of the novel and what it is proving is all written in the first paragraph and some even say the first sentence.

He does say, I think someone else pointed it out earlier, that the story he tells shows him to have little honor and that he is not writing the story as a warning to others. He honors St. Benedict's School as the end all, be all and then hones in, giving us a clue, this story is really about the development of one student that future students of history will see the handwriting on the wall that led him to a life as a well-known man.

OK for me the first bit that pinched but I did not register it as a biggie is when Mr. H. says, "The younger Sedgewick was a dull boy." The usual past practice of labeling a student behind his back. Not what most of us want to hear about a boy, who we have been told becomes well-known man.

He is not kind suggesting, Hyram Bell was not out and out elected but, indicates a lessor glory that Hyram rode into office on the shoulders of group fear. Suggesting the father manipulates power grabbing.

Then the wording that shows his ownership - "My students..." Reminded me of how for many years it was a habit among Real Estate agents to say, My client or My seller or My buyer - some still say it although, we have been taught we are the ones being hired and the hiring is about service - that our false concept of ownership is not part of that scenario. And so, I readily admit this tiny reaction added to my impression of Mr. Hundert, which was based in my Twenty-first century views.

Now here may be a key that Mr. H sees it as 'sad' that boys of this age turn from a Plato morality to the "powerful, pragmatic hand of Augustus." That sentence upon rereading strikes me that Mr. H. prefers the "moral endeavor of Plato." Mr. H. does label those who buy into Augustus as the 'coarser' boys. And then, we get the real key to his place in the scheme of influence - teachers at St. Benedict's were under pressure to teach these boys who will influence "the affairs of our country". We have Mr. H. concerned he could "temper their ambition with humility".

Sedgewick's first day of class is after the boys had settled in and probably the idea of wearing a toga made of sheets was an innovative teaching technique. Immediately, we have Mr. H. deciding that Sedgwick was not only dull but a roustabout. He is introduced by Mr. Woodbridge and we see that Mr. H. may have thought Sedgewick dull and a roustabout but, he quickly tunes into his fear and the bravado often displayed by a new student.

Ah so, it was "Fred Masoudi, the leader of the dullards" not Sedgewick who starts the banter about the toga's and then Sedgewick quickly picks up on the opening.

Again, we have Mr. H. labeling a student saying Sedgewick was a boor and a bully - not very complementary but great alteration on the part of the author.  ;)

Hmm I wonder if that is what is so annoying - here he is again, using a sense of ownership saying, "What I asked of my boys..." then it was "through my years of teaching...and Sedgewick Bell was unwilling..." Followed again, his judging Sedgewick a poor student.

Could that be part of our aversion to Mr. H. that in spite of spitballs, wads of gum and thumbtacks we were rooting for the boy Sedgewick and we secretly like the idea of him being a "natural leader..."

OK then, if any of us were humiliated in class or saw a fellow student humiliated in class then Mr. H. is the enemy when he says, "punishment is a cultivated art". The art being to manufacture a set up so that student laughter is a given and now that Sedgewick has our soft side we do not like seeing him humiliated - yet, how else would Mr. H. confront Sedgewick taking over the class with his "natural leadership" and how else would he keep aloft for these boys bent on bringing to fruition the "powerful, pragmatic hand of Augustus" and leaving in the dust the "moral endeavor of Plato."

OK before we go any further what exactly is Plato’s moral endeavor -  This site makes it easy to get the synopsis of Plato’s philosophy, mostly as it relates to Socrates

http://www.hoocher.com/Philosophy/plato.htm.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #172 on: July 15, 2015, 05:28:37 AM »
From the link the lines that I see as eye opening and a help in understanding the dynamics between Mr. Hundert, Sedgewick and his father, even between Mr. Hundert and Mr. Woodbridge as well as, Charles Ebberly.

c. Plato was brought up to think that democracy was a form of corruption in government. (Mr. Hundert does not run a democratic classroom)

1. Plato points out in his Apology (lit., a defense or explanation of the truth or justice) that Socrates could have avoided death by leaving Athens before the trial began, a customary practice at that time. (Sounds like Mr. Hundert taking the low road confronting cheating)

Plato recounts the trail speech of Socrates – some of the highlights of that speech are in direct relationship to this story.

a. Not until you have pursued wisdom and truth ought you to think of money or fame or prestige or of the body.

b. Virtue does not come from money, but from virtue comes money and every other good thing for mankind, public and private

a. To know the good is to do the good -- evil and vice are due to the lack of knowledge or to ignorance (and nothing else).

b. Then wrongdoing (sin) comes only from failure to know what is good.
       Socrates: "No one does evil voluntarily."

c. Socrates insists that when one does an evil act, it is always with the thought that it will bring some good or benefit.

d. People spend their lives striving for power, or prestige, or wealth thinking that it is good and will make them happy.
       Socrates maintains that they do not know that these are not good and will not bring them happiness.

e. One needs to know human nature, the true nature of human beings, in order to know what is good for humans and what brings happiness.

f. The Unexamined Life: Never to know what is good for human beings is to live a life of striving to achieve but never finding happiness.
       Socrates: "The unexamined life is not worth living."

OK taking what Mr. H. would know about Plato and Socrates let's continue looking at the story for clues to why we have this aversion to Mr. Hundert

The big error in Mr. Hundert's "In retrospect," musings that only shows his weakness as compared to most men playing power games who are striving for power, or prestige, or wealth tell it - you never say you made a mistake and then, Mr. H. further acknowledges it was he who shot the poison arrow when he convinces a boy of his stupidity. He even goes as far as blaming himself for the future life choices of Sedgewick Bell.

Is that it - we picked up on the guilt that now feels ego centered because of all the earlier "I" and "my" statements as well as, the self-blame because we were uncomfortable reading how he judged negatively this boy and as long as he was blaming himself we could ride his bandwagon?

This lament and confession is immediately followed by the description of his stark and monk like room both living, sleeping and office. Was this the self-flagellation used by monks for generations - it sure does not fit our idea of promoting ourselves as children of a loving and forgiving God or, the Socrates ‘examined life’ philosophy or, the really telling points,  "No one does evil voluntarily" and c. Socrates insists that when one does an evil act, it is always with the thought that it will bring some good or benefit.

Well whatever are the words in this story that hit any of you that support an aversion to Mr. Hundert, even before he makes his pilgrimage to the office of Hyram Bell, he is not arriving as a hero in the eyes of some of us and yet, the way he talks about his students is typical of the day and the way he lives reminds us of a monk professing his mea culpa. 

So, the question becomes, is the negative opinion we have for this character part of the arch of the story to help the reader easily grasp the author's development of conflict and theme or, are we reacting to the changed historical perspective of appropriate teacher behavior or, are we so used to hearing the viewpoint of those striving for power, prestige and wealth that we too have put the thoughts of Plato and Socrates on the back burner therefore, we saw Mr. H as a weak and ego driven man.

I'm as confused as ever... in other words if we read this story in say 20 years later, in 1965 would we have picked up on the behavior of Mr. H. and taken a similar aversion to his character. For me I know I was reacting with a “lack of knowledge or to ignorance” of the philosophy of Socrates "to know good".
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #173 on: July 15, 2015, 05:50:21 AM »
A tidbit that I thought interesting

Notable people with the surname Hundert include:
    Edward M. Hundert, American academic
    Joachim Hundert (1920–1944), German Wehrmacht officer
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #174 on: July 15, 2015, 06:50:41 AM »
OH, NO, PLATO!

I remember studying Plato's Dialogues. Ugh! It was like a dog chasing it's tail.

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #175 on: July 15, 2015, 08:23:05 AM »
:) Frybabe.   Interesting on Plato, Barb, it's amazing what comes up in these discussions, and in our minds, too, as we read a book.  I also was quite interested in other people that have the name Hundert.   I do wonder where he got that idea for that name.

I'm afraid I don't have a negative opinion of Mr. Hundert. When  he lets us into his own thoughts I don't see evil. He appears to me to be trying to do good and he was misguided, he made a mistake.   Several mistakes.  Nobody here has ever made mistakes?

He redeemed himself and he knows better now. 

To answer my own question I've known quite a few William Hundert's.  I also have known unfortunately one  Charles Ellerby. In fact one quite recently.

And I do understand what it takes to stand up to a Charles Ellerby. Mr. Hundert  was blindsided by him; he thought he was a friend;  he was betrayed, and in order to stand up to something like that takes a tremendous amount of courage which I'm not sure Mr. Hundert has had throughout the book, and strength.

Actually in my personal experience to deal with a Charles Ellerby and win can make one physically nauseous, particularly if, in real life, one is shy and introverted. Which I think Mr. Hundert also is. 

Mr. Hundert didn't succeed that time. But he has the consolation that he finally stood up. I need to reread the Ellerby section because it shocked me when it happened, too, just like it shocked Mr. Hundert .   

One of the questions on that link in the heading talks about battleground which surprised  me but, in retrospect,  there are a lot of battles being fought in this quiet little school.   And, I imagine, in every life.

Based on everybody's comments to date, I'm going to reread it again now this afternoon see what I think of it now.

I thought all night about what to me is the maybe not the most interesting quote from this book,  but the most important, (Jonathan's question has morphed into "most important" now for me.)

I think my choice will surprise you. What's yours?





Dana

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #176 on: July 15, 2015, 01:25:56 PM »
You know, I think I have to sympathise with Sedgewick Bell.  Here he is, introduced into a class of boys in bedsheets!  Surely anyone not cowed by the venerableness of the proceedings or school would think the scene and the teacher were nuts.  Especially a rather pompous teacher like Mr H.  I can't see any one over the age of puberty being comfortable with the whole set up ("Mr Julius Caesar"......!......Really???)
 Once  brainwashed by the system (" tradition") then of course people are capable of any madness.

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #177 on: July 15, 2015, 03:39:12 PM »
I thought the same thing when I first saw it. Especially with a  teenage 13 year old boy. Then I thought of all the State Latin competitions I've seen  and all the teenagers in togas and I sort of backed down but I  did think that was something I myself would have made a joke about.

I think the togas are in this scene and in this plot for a reason. I think they were deliberately placed there to emphasize that Mr. Hunderdt knew that Sedgewick Bell would not know who Nahhunte was. Despite the fact that his plaque was on the wall, all that year, apparently  Sedgewick was not intellectually curious.

The togas mean that Sedgewick was not entering on the first day.  On that  first day of school Mr. Hundert called attention to the plaque about Nahhunte, and what it meant and who had made it, (Henry Stimson) "partly to remind them of the great ambition and conquest that had been utterly forgotten centuries before they were born, "  and then had one of the boys read Ozymandias, another reference to the futility of the insignificance of man "before the sands of time."

So in other words he made a big deal of Nahhunte and Ozymandias on the first day.

But Sedgewick missed all that and did not know it. He came in later, so he could not have possibly known it like the others did. I think the togas are a tool of the plot.


ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #178 on: July 15, 2015, 03:48:40 PM »
And I think the story is a lot more cleverly written than we realize.

Dana

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #179 on: July 15, 2015, 04:02:17 PM »
You mean they wear togas .....when graduating?.....like the brightly coloured graduation gowns they wear  in schools here? 

Re the story, I don't follow your point..the book says clearly that he came
"midway through  the fall term" 
I don't know the point of the togas.....to emphasis the kind of school it was?

I am wondering about the title....both headmasters and S. and H. could qualify I suppose.  Seeing H wrote the story about himself, I guess it has to be him.

Oh no, the ambiguity was meant of-course....duh....

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #180 on: July 15, 2015, 04:27:17 PM »
No they wear togas (bedsheets)  like the Romans did to participate (or they did, it's been a while, I guess it was the '60's and possibly the 70's) in the various contests. Didn't seem to bother them.


bellamarie

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #181 on: July 15, 2015, 04:35:08 PM »
Okay, I just could not stay away, I heard all of your voices in my head and just had to check in.  Oh dear me!  I am laughing out loud because this story sure has set a fire under us all. 

Dana, I need to clarify, I've never referred to Mr. H. as nasty.  I just do not agree with how he treated Sedgewick from the very first day, and there on.  I may have been a bit too hard on Mr. H., but like Jonathan stated, I have my reasons. 

As for the toga, I felt the students wearing them were to get them more into character as they learned their history lesson of the emperors.  Sedgewick, came into Mr. H.'s class in,  November of 1945, (pg.156) and Fred Masoudi, the leader of the dullards__though far from a dullard himself__said, to mild laughter, "Where's your toga, kid?"   Sedgewick Bell answered, "your mother must be wearing your pants today." Mr. H., says,[/b] "Young man," I said,  this is a serious class, and I expect you will take it seriously."  "If it's such a serious class, then why're they all wearing dresses?" he responded, again to laughter, although by now Fred Masoudi had loosened the rope belt at his wait and the boys around him were shifting uncomfortably in their togas. (pg. 158,59)

I have a question to pose. 

Do you think you would have different feelings about the characters, had you not read the entire fifty pages at once?

Imagine not knowing the outcome of everything that took place, and the ending so soon.  I tend to think my feelings may have evolved, if I had read this in sections, discovering things along the way.   
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #182 on: July 15, 2015, 04:39:41 PM »
ah but what is the Palace - is it a place or a state of mind I wonder.

Ah yes - we were writing simultaneously - Bellamarie says it - Dana wearing  the Toga's helps to set a mood and helps teens get out of their current view of the world - almost like visiting another country with very different traditions, language than your own. I do not think there are many teens who can step into the shoes of another culture or another person with a very different set of values as we can when we are adults and so my take again is that it was a teaching device.

Just as some folks are uncomfortable with the differences when they travel and are relieved to eat  at a McDonald's in Paris, Moscow, Beijing or South Africa it appears there were some boys who were uncomfortable and the mere thought of wearing a toga was a put off for Sedgewick and so it became a joke for him at the expense of Mr. H.   

I have to agree Ginny this short story is packed. You have to be more familiar with the references to the Romans - have you seen how their being included in the story is fleshing out a theme.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #183 on: July 15, 2015, 04:52:29 PM »
Bellamarie I think the reason you read a short story all in one swoop is because of how they are structured - this tidbit may help...

Short stories are also structured differently than novels.

Novels have time to explore the full three-act structure. However, in a short story, you often only have space to write a segment of the three-act structure, usually a segment that leads up to a major, transformative event for the main character.

A good example of a major event is William Faulkner’s short story, “A Rose For Emily,” which centers on the discovery of the shy main character’s dead, decaying body in her home. The rest of the story is just build up and explanation for that one central event.

Short Stories are About One Character

Finally, short stories only focus on one major character. Novels have room to explore the lives of several major characters. For example, in Jane Austen’s Pride and Prejudice we closely follow the life of Jane Bennett and her relationship with Mr. Bingley.

You can’t write a subplots into your short story. They’re too brief to focus on the life of more than one major character.


And so with that we are really attempting to explore the transformative event for Mr. Hundert.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #184 on: July 15, 2015, 05:00:58 PM »
I'd like to hold off on the meaning of the title till we've done a bit more with some of the elements of the book, if you will,  but just for the record, I don't see mentioned yet what I think either word means. Of course that means NOTHING. hahahaa But please, let's hold off. I don't think we've explored all the aspects of the book yet. At that time, you may have the same idea, of course.

Oh good, Bellamarie is back! Welcome back, Bellamarie, that's a great question and I'll put it in the heading. In fact I'll bring the heading here because I think it might be interesting to refresh memories in trying to discover all the parts of the book.

Oh good Barbara is talking about plot and that's where I wanted to go next once we got through with theme. I have a new theory about the plot.

In answer to your question, Bellamarie, I couldn't have stopped, unfortunately, reading. But then again I've had to read it several times to get the meaning.  Let's see what everybody else thinks.

Here is our lovely collaboration so far:



Topic #2: The Themes in The Palace Thief


Ethan Canin: The theme has to do with the power of a quiet life… The power of a man to really make a change with his heart, his soul, as opposed to having to be rich. A different kind of idol… A teacher’s life is a very powerful, dignified life. We shouldn’t forget that. That’s what Mr. Hundert loses sight of in the movie, and regains in the end. God bless a great teacher… I didn’t have many. "

Let's look at themes in this story this week. In order to do this we'll first call on you to identify any themes you see running through the book.

-To start out, do you agree or disagree with the author about the theme he sees in the book? Why or why not?

-What are some themes you have noted in the book? We'll put ALL of them up here so we can all discuss them.

----betrayal (ginny)

----nature vs. nurture (Frybabe)

----character and morals

----fear (halcyon) ----courage

----isolation (Halcyon)

----loss of innocence (Halcyon)

----fallibility (Dana)

----self survival/self serving (Bellamarie)

----power (Halcyon)

----retirement and old age (Topic du Jour 7/14

----

-Other questions raised by our readers:

----WAS Mr.Hunderdt a good teacher, do you think? Why or why not? (Jonathan)

----Was there a character you took an instant dislike to? Who and why? (Pat)

----What is the climax of the book? Why?

----Which of the children was most injured by Mr Hundert's manipulating the grades? (BellaMarie)

----Do you think you would have different feelings about the characters, had you not read the entire fifty pages at once? (BellaMarie) ---What is the most interesting quote from the book, to you? Why? (Jonathan)

-Once we get a list of the themes we can discuss which one we think is the most powerful in the story, what the real purpose of the story IS, and all the questions you have raised as well.



I think that all of these themes are present in the book. Is there one we left out?



ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #185 on: July 15, 2015, 05:14:42 PM »
Going back to Jonathan's idea yesterday, there are two quotes in a book full of really good quotes which were meaningful to me.

The quote I found most interesting was this one:

"I was struck anew by how great a privilege my profession had been." Page 182.

I also voted for this one as most meaningful (am making up "categories of awards" as I go):  "Is there no battle other than the personal one?" Page 202.

But my vote for the quote of the book is:

"How deeply the viper is a viper."

I need now to find that page number because I copied it as you see it and ran off to see who wrote it. I'm surprised to find apparently nobody did, except the author. Doesn't it SOUND like something poetic?

Of all the themes in this book (and I bet there are more we haven't thought of), I think the most important one is betrayal. LOOK how many people are betrayed and by whom.

In fact, if we were to make a list and list all the betrayals, small and large (depending on your definition of betrayal) I think we'd be shocked.

That's my vote, what's yours?




Halcyon

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #186 on: July 15, 2015, 05:54:36 PM »
My quote for today is "My boys are passing once again into the world without me".  Of course that's just for today. 

I also need to add fear to the themes.  Lots of fear.  In fact I'm beginning to think fear is driving all the other themes.

Glad you're back Bellamarie!

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #187 on: July 15, 2015, 08:15:59 PM »
That's a great  quote and that's a super  theme. I've added "fear" to the heading and the list above.

What, fear causes betrayal? I will be interested to find out how. It may make a difference what KIND of betrayal it is? I saw nothing but blind ambition in Charles Ellerby but I have yet to read it entirely over which I will do.

Dana

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #188 on: July 15, 2015, 08:55:09 PM »
How about  falliability.  Mr H is a weak but self important man , taken over by the circumstance of having got himself a job in a posh school and filled with ideas of passing on some grandiose dream....that a knowledge of history will somehow make his pupils better able to ..what? ....live ....command......be good people.......?  Strange idea.
The headmaster is weak, and money driven no doubt, he can't set the decent path for Mr H to follow.
So they aren't able to behave with strength, which S and his dad do have, as does Ellerby, but for their own self aggrandising ends.
 But there is no main character who is  admirable in this story.
 Admirable people do exist .....but not here...!

bellamarie

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #189 on: July 15, 2015, 09:18:24 PM »
Thank you Dana, for that info on short stories vs novels.  It was very accurate and enlightening.  I have to agree with this:

Short Stories are About One Character

Even though we mention the other characters in this novella, Mr. Hundert is indeed the one character, the main character we are discussing.  After all, he is also the narrator.

Ginny, I'll have to get back to you on my favorite quote.

HalcyonFear is indeed a part of the theme.  Mr. H., is seeing his ending of career and life, and yet sees the successes and beginnings of the student's he taught.  That can be filled with pride, yet bittersweet.

I just retired in April, and my largest emotion I struggled with approaching that day was fear.  Fear of the unknown, what would life be like after retirement?
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #190 on: July 15, 2015, 09:18:32 PM »
"fallibility" is a good one and I've put it in the heading and in our floating chart, thank you!

When I saw it, it made me think of "and feeble as frail." Not sure where that came from.

But hist! You are saying Sedgewick is strong?

All I see him doing is cheating. The C word. hahaha Again. THREE times, he's doing the Cheating word. As a child. As an adult. And as an adult  speaker shutting up the man trying to say the truth.

Cheating is not strong, is it?

Tell us why a knowledge of history will not make a more informed citizen and broaden his understanding to the point he can make informed decisions. We can actually see what happens when one does not know any history. Take Al Quaeda or however it's spelled. Invited ISIS in to help them do something...probably nefarious. And like Ariovistus and the Sequanians at Besancon, ISIS would not leave.   Then Al Whoever had to appeal for help.  DUH

??

I love this discussion. I love these different views and I appreciate every single one made ...such a good debate.  I WAS on the way to bed when I saw this and I did want to respond, but it will be early tomorrow before I can get back here so I thought I'd weigh in now.

Why do you say self important?

Dana

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #191 on: July 15, 2015, 11:23:33 PM »
Well it is said those who don't pay attention to history are condemned to repeat it but I have never really been convinced of the truth of that!  Lots of us have know lots of history surely, but nothing much changes.  Logically, knowing the past  should inform future actions I agree but I disagree that it does.   (We can't just say  Al Quaeda leaders are ignorant of history, we don't know.) 
I do think S. and his father are strong.  Strong characters, not necessarily admirable ones.
You could equally well say S. was ruthless..determined to succeed whatever it took.  He wasn't cheating from fear.  Or, I don't understand him that way.


BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #192 on: July 15, 2015, 11:51:44 PM »
That is funny Lol that "Al Quaeda leaders are ignorant of history, we don't know." could be just as we are ignorant of Middle Eastern History.  ;)

I doubt we could name 5 of the biggest and therefore, most influential tribes and yet, there are hundreds of them and the Middle East is a tribal society with a history that is rich from the Ottoman Empire back the Mesopotamia - I would guess they know as much about western history and in particular US history as we know about the history of Al-Qaeda much less the history of the Middle East.   

Now that would be a fascinating study wouldn't it - to learn more about the tribes of the Middle East and which tribal groups are included in Al-Qaeda - I only learned recently that the Taliban were originally young fundamental religious seminarians and our media gave them another identity.

And most enlightening to me is the issue of tribal purity - that the economics of several nations in the Middle east is set up so that most investments in oil, land development, and trade is tribal and the proceeds from these investments are shared among those within the tribe and so if you marry outside the tribe not only do you loose your piece of the pie but all your family is denied the profits that even goes as far as police who can recognize, often by the headscarf, if you are a member of a tribe and therefore allowed to picnic in certain parks or go to certain beaches.

I wonder how selective were the Romans that is taught by Mr. Hundert and our own Ginny who helps a number of seniors not only learn their Latin but have won many a Latin contest in the past few years.

Didn't you have to take Latin in high School Dana or were you later - we had to have 4 years of Latin and 3 years of either French, Spanish or German in order to Graduate - I found Latin to be a challenge and ended up in Summer school after both Sophomore year and Junior year in order to pass.  Second year Latin was reading the Punic Wars - no toga's though  ;)
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #193 on: July 16, 2015, 06:20:58 AM »
BellaMarie, that's a good point about what Barbara put in here on the short story...it all comes back to Mr.Hundert as Narrator...we did ask earlier if we thought he was a reliable Narrator....you didn't think so .....I'm wondering what everybody  thinks today?

Could he be telling it as he sees it?  I'm wondering if he sees it as somebody else would describe it.  I guess that's true of anything and anybody.

Barb, and Dana, that's a good point! I don't know how much history Al Qaeda knows.  Weren't  they the ones machine gunning down the Buddha statues? I definitely see in that action,  by that particular group of people calling themselves Al Quaeda  disregard and disrespect for history that's not theirs, and so they wouldn't really have benefited from any lesson of the  Sequanians.  It didn't pertain to them, so it's unworthy.  Seems to be the new mantra today.

Poor Mr. Hundert, he's stuck,  he has to battle to defend,  even to the Admin,  his teaching a subject that a lot of people don't think is relevant.  Good point also, Barb, on how selective he is about what OF history he presents.  We, for instance,  never got past World War I in high school.

Dana, I'm not seeing an instance of strength in either Hiram Bell  or Sedgewick which SIRI just spelled correctly, hahaha.  (Anybody  know what the word Sedgewick means?). Could you point to something that you think is an example of their strength? I think that when you resort to cheating, and in the case of the bully Hiram, bribes, aka let  me give you a gift so you'll feel indebted to me and kindly toward me,  then to me,  you're admitting that you can't do it otherwise.

OK to close out our week of discussion of theme, we've got a great list of themes  here. Have we left one out? Which one do you all think is the overarching theme of this story that moves everything else?  Why?  Here's a good one: if somebody asked  you what the story is about, what  would you say?   (Dana, I'm really enjoying having you in this book discussion.  I think this is the first one you've participated in, is it? I've not been doing them so I couldn't know. If so I wish you'd do it again because you're making good points, and it's a lot of fun.)
 

Topic du Jour:

We've got a great list of themes  here. Which one do you all think is the overarching theme of this story that moves everything else?  Why?  Here's a good one: if somebody asked  you what the story is about, what  would you say? 



Back tonight.  :)
 

Frybabe

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #194 on: July 16, 2015, 08:09:21 AM »
I think this item from the surname database has the best info on the name origins of Sedgewick I've seen so far.
http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Sedgwick

bellamarie

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #195 on: July 16, 2015, 10:00:02 AM »
I see self survival/self serving as yet another theme in this story.  You have the principal saying leave it alone or lose your job to Mr. H., so the school which means Mr. Woodbridge saves the school's image meaning his own self image, then Mr. H., is making decisions to save his job and self image.  Sedgewick holding a mock competition to launch a Senatorial campaign, using Mr. H. for his self purpose to enhance his own self image, and there is Deepak, who does in fact go along with the cheating, to win the contest and boosts his own self image.  Senator Bell, who Mr. H., seems to think got elected by other means than deserving to him, threatens Mr. H. in order to maintain his self image. Oh and let us not forget Mr. Ellerby who back stabbed Mr. H., so he could become headmaster, hence self serving.  All of these characters showed their lack or morals and poor judgement, to maintain their own self image/survival. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #196 on: July 16, 2015, 10:07:02 AM »
Frybabe, That is an interesting link. 

This unusual and interesting surname, of Anglo-Saxon origin, is locational from places so called in Cumberland and Sussex. The derivation of Sedgwick in Cumberland is from the Old Norse "siggi" or Olde English pre 7th Century "sicg", both meaning victory,

Do you suppose there is a hidden message in using this particular name for the student in this story?  Sedgewick meaning "victory", is it coincidental Canin chose this name with this meaning?  Is Sedgewick victorious? 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Dana

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #197 on: July 16, 2015, 01:28:43 PM »
That's an interesting question, re the theme,  nothing immediately comes to mind, but then I go back to the title "The Palace Thief" and I think that has to be the theme. The palace is the school and the thieves are numerous.
 But the author says the theme has to do with the power of a quiet life, the power of a man being able to make a change with his heart, as opposed to have to be rich......I really don't get that at all, and why call it The Palace Thief.  If that's what it's about,(and he should know!) then I don't understand the title at all.

Thanks for your kind words, Ginny.  You chose a curiously gripping story I must say. 
 

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #198 on: July 16, 2015, 04:55:04 PM »
Wow - yes, Self-serving - interesting to me is I've been reading some about the earmarks to ID Narcissism and that is one of the earmarks - self-importance and using others for self-serving ends - hmm are we really reading about secondary characters being narcissistic I wonder.

Yes, Victory Frybabe, and then isn't there an another listed - a grass that is used to thatch roofs which we call sword grass - that would also be telling in that sword grass grows a bit long and is sharp so that pulling it you cut your hand - I would never have guessed Sedgewick's name had an English origin but there it is.

Dana that is a dilemma isn't it - what is showing strength - influence, crowd pleasing, winning the race, as the Bells and Charles Ebberly  or the quiet who hopes to instill an appreciation for history and the art of the written word handed down through the ages - This concept of quiet is for many the sign of strength rather than the concept of striving - the message being when you come from integrity than you do not have to prove anything or push back to have a superior position - there are so many quotes that serve this concept - here are a few.

Solitude is strength - to depend upon the presence of a crowd is weakness. - Te Ching 

One who will not accept solitude, stillness and quiet recurring moments is caught up in the wilderness of addiction; far removed from the original state of 'being' and 'awareness'. This is dis-ease. - T.F.Hodge

Strength does not come from winning. Your struggles develop your strength. When you go through hardships and decide not to surrender, that is strength. - Mahatma Gandhi

My quiet, calm introvert energy is a strength, and it is perfect just the way it is. - William Shakespeare

Quiet people have the loudest minds - Stephen Hawking

Integrity is the lifeblood of democracy. Deceit is a poison in its veins. - Edward Kennedy

In quietness and confidence shall be your strength (Isaiah 30:15)
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #199 on: July 16, 2015, 09:04:22 PM »
Love the points here today!

Thank you Frybabe!! I was struggling with the "wick" part, I guess I was thinking of sedge as it pertains to the west here, apparently not. I am surprised, too, Barbara, to find it's Anglo Saxon.

Bellamarie, I like those themes, and will put them in the two headings, thank you!  and there is Deepak, who does in fact go along with the cheating  I personally don't see Deepak with anything to be ashamed of, Mr. Hunderdt said he shot him a look...of what? Perhaps he thought what are you doing asking Nahhunte?  I'm not seeing Deepak as any collaborator in any scheme to cheat. I could be wrong,  of course. I don't see his complicit behavior nor his cheating, himself. I am not sure what he could have done caught up in this maelstrom. Or epic battle.

This was really good, I thought: Do you suppose there is a hidden message in using this particular name for the student in this story?

I've wondered that myself.  Sedgewick meaning "victory", is it coincidental Canin chose this name with this meaning?  Is Sedgewick victorious? 

That's a REALLY  good question !!! I guess it would depend on one's conception of "victorious."  I would say definitely not. What would the rest of you say?

Dana, the power of a man being able to make a change with his heart. That fits in with what I think the title means, too. Such an enigma.

Dana, You chose a curiously gripping story I must say. It IS, isn't it? And would you believe I didn't realize it at the time I suggested it? I knew I liked it. hahahaa I think the comments have really helped focus it here, for me.

Barbara, lovely quotes on integrity and strength and quiet.

Here are a couple of questions from other websites, since this thing is now in the Common  Core 10th grade curriculum among other things.. it would be interesting to hear the student's opinions, wouldn't it?

Of all the wrong things Mr. Hundert does in the story, which should he feel most guilty for? Why?


I like that one. You have to think about it.

Consider the battle imagery in the story. What is compared to a battle? The battles in this story are fought for what goals and with what weapons? Do the things being fought for and weapons used in fighting change as the story progresses?  

That's another good one. Then there's the Caesar constant references, I need to go back and mark them.

But let's look (in addition to those topics) at Mr. Ellerby.  What do you make of him? What's with the breathlessness when he comes to see Mr. Hundert?

Were you surprised when he did what he did? Why or why not?