Author Topic: Palace Thief (The) by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online  (Read 75854 times)

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #240 on: July 20, 2015, 08:07:31 PM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

July Book Club Online: July 7-31

The Palace Thief
by Ethan Canin






"Ethan Canin: The theme has to do with the power of a quiet life… The power of a man to really make a change with his heart, his soul, as opposed to having to be rich. A different kind of idol… A teacher’s life is a very powerful, dignified life. We shouldn’t forget that. That’s what Mr. Hundert loses sight of in the movie, and regains in the end. God bless a great teacher… I didn’t have many. "



Topic #3: The Thieves of Integrity/ Plot/ Final Thoughts/ The Palace Thief


Ethan Canin: The theme has to do with the power of a quiet life… The power of a man to really make a change with his heart, his soul, as opposed to having to be rich. A different kind of idol… A teacher’s life is a very powerful, dignified life. We shouldn’t forget that. That’s what Mr. Hundert loses sight of in the movie, and regains in the end. God bless a great teacher… I didn’t have many. "

  • 1. Do you agree with the author on what the theme of the book is? Why or why not?

  • 2. What do you see the climax of the book to be?

    ------------- Was it the 2nd contest and the Nahhunte?

    --------------Was it the moment Mr. Hundert stood up to the whole school and got Charles Ellerby elected?

    ---------------Was it the moment Mr. Hundert finally stood UP to the conflicts of the entire book (Sedgewick) and tried to say in front of miners, that is not true?

    ---------------Is it something else?

  • 3. "By some fallen column, by some chaste ruin, the thieves of integrity wait...."

    ( Hilary Mantel, in Wolf Hall)......

    . "Virtue had no place in the palaces he had known.." (page 196).

  • What does the title of the book mean?




  • Interesting Links:

    Annotations for The Palace Thief from  Chulalongkorn University   *Spoiler: At the bottom of this list of annotations is a set of questions and a link to an interview with the author about what he intended, so if you don't like to see that type of thing at the outset and would rather think for yourself, don't read down that far. We can decide later if he actually did achieve what he intended to show or if he didn't.


    Discussion Leader: Ginny









    OH golly moses, what a wonderful wonderful job you are doing with this discussion! This is like old times, isn't it? I love it.  And for me, it's changed the old "process" we used to stick to like glue and freed it up and opened it up so it's fun for the "leader" again. Just love it.

    Love the stuff on the gun. Love the stuff on the redundant. LOVE this one: Will he keep soldiering on?  He HAS been a soldier. He has fought a battle. The words battle keep repeating over and over.  He's in a fight.

    Safe travels, Dana, Dana travels all the time. We surely enjoyed your ideas.

    I was struck anew and anew by the Caesar references, they are absolutely everywhere. Think what you like about Brutus and his motivations,  Caesar was betrayed.  I think something like 20 of the conspirators owed their very lives to his forgiveness and clemency. THIS is why Dante has put them (Brutus and Cassius) in the lowest rung of hell. Where betrayers go.

    I want to bring you every quote and reference to Caesar, it's like a drumbeat through the entire piece and then I wonder if you'd help me figure out WHY Caesar is there at all? You will be surprised, I think.

    I LOVED Halcyon's take on FEAR as the major theme, so carefully written out!  I loved Pat's humor, and it's true, he could very well have shot himself. I think Mr.  Ellerby snooped, found the gun,  and concocted a story of slander, apparently pretty bad as his former colleagues shrank from him.

    I loved Bellamarie's musing about how, if we did not know the ending, we might have seen Mr. Hunderdt differently.

    I believe (new theory alert!) we think or thought about Mr. Hunderdt for a reason and it's because the author himself wrote it so you would. I think he manipulated the reader cleverly. I think this is almost poetically written. It reminds me of Caesar's Commentaries. Seems straightforward enough and easy to read, only 50 pages but there's a world underneath he's not saying. It's confusing but boy what a discussion about it.

    The PRINCE? Well he referred to a PALACE in connection with Sedgewick. Was Sedgewick the Machiavellian prince? I don't think Mr. Hunderdt was  up to it, do you?

    I have to find that page again. Jonathan, I think the reading of Shakespeare with Sedgewick as Brutus (another reference to Caesar's assassination and betrayal) was in the movie. I don't see it here. I guess movies have to be even more explicit.

    I don't think Mr. Hundert's mentioning his former students who did well is unusual, nor do I think it showed his....arrogance. At all. When you have a student who has gained fame, I think it's possibly normal to mention him when you introduce yourself or casually thereafter so the students may in fact feel inspired or excited about being in the same company of scholars learning the same things. It's a rare university which does not point to its favored sons (and daughters).

    Barbara said:

    Is it the only time Mr. H. stands up publicly to face down a fear tactic when he justifies teaching Roman History as Charles Ebberly attempted to persuade the new curriculum to exclude this class taught by Mr. H. - He made an attempt to get his message across to Hyman but does not get the job done.

    Now isn't that interesting? A battle for what meant the most to him in the world. That, he said, was his proudest moment. But he stood up again about the high school. WAS that the climax? Standing up against Sedgewick Bell, even tho Bell shushed the microphone? Did all the action and all the conflict lead up to that moment? Or do you think there was another moment?

    The PLOT in this thing is really multi layered, unlike a lot of short stories. It's different.

    When we meet Mr. Hunderdt, what is the conflict that YOU see us presented with?

    I'll be baaaack.


    ginny

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #241 on: July 20, 2015, 08:15:12 PM »
    Bellamarie way back there asked a question about would we have thought of the character differently if we had read it in sections rather than all at once?

    I thought that was interesting.  I have a theory about that.

    Question for you guys:

    Of how many characters in this book can we say we know their inmost thoughts and feelings?

    ??

    bellamarie

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #242 on: July 20, 2015, 10:16:48 PM »
    Ginny, the reason I asked that question, is because I found once I allowed myself to get past the first chapters, where I was frustrated with how Mr. H., treated Sedgewick on the first day, and then proceeded to seeing Sedgewick the adult, I found myself evolving.  But since I read the full 50 pages, it seemed as if I was stuck in the beginning.  Had we read it broken into sections, I feel I would have been able to move past the first few chapters.

    This is my first time ever reading the entire story ahead of the discussion.  As you all know, I won't even read ahead in our discussions, so this was new for me.

    To answer your question as to how many characters can we say we know their innermost thoughts and feelings, I don't really feel any of them.  Mr. H., expressed the school was his life, but he never really shared his personal experiences.  He gave us a glimpse, but I feel I never really knew him.  All the other characters were not forthcoming either.  We get introduced to them, then we lose track of them until the re enactment of the competition decades later.  Mr. Ellerby was introduced lightly, and then was brought back at the ending to back stab Mr. H.  Everyone for me seemed surface, like a veneer shine that does not allow me to see what is really under the veneer finish.

    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden

    bellamarie

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #243 on: July 20, 2015, 10:37:32 PM »
    Barb, 
    Quote
    we all become irrelevant and each generation passes along their irrelevancy to the next set of young lions - and even if you do not go out and grab it like Sedgewick you get the gift of irrelevancy handed to you 

    Well my heavens, you've done it again!  I was just over to my neighbors the other day because she wanted to share with me all these items her mother had left to her when she passed away.  There were pictures of her relatives from the early 1900s, china, lead glass crystal bowls, and other items.  She had her sister and brothers come and pick out items they wanted, and there was so much left over.  She said she was surprised how they weren't really interested in much.  I have collector dolls, tea cups & saucers, precious moments, and angel collections, and my hubby has the Heritage Dickens Dept. 56 house collection.  Over the years we have invested quite a bit of money in these, and I said to my neighbor how these have so much meaning to us, and it's very possible no one is going to care about them when we pass on, even though they have value.  She said that is exactly how she feels.

    " irrelevant"  now that is a very interesting and sad thought.
    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden

    bellamarie

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #244 on: July 20, 2015, 10:43:46 PM »
    GinnyWas Sedgewick the Machiavellian prince?

    It's a possibility.
    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden

    PatH

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #245 on: July 21, 2015, 09:56:20 AM »
    I agree, Bellamarie, we don't know the innermost thoughts and feelings of anyone.  All the characters are seen through Hundert's eyes, and either he is one of those people who doesn't analyze others, or he doesn't feel it's important to his story.  We see the story from inside Hundert's head, but we still aren't seeing all of what he's like--he's narrowly focussed on one particular part of his life.

    Halcyon

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #246 on: July 21, 2015, 10:10:24 AM »
    I agree.  We are seeing the story through Hundert's eyes and we still haven't decided if he is a reliable narrator.  As everyone knows everyone sees things differently.  A good example is this group.  all the different ideas and opinions.  I like Barb's idea of dueling pistols.  Am curious if the author even thought of that?  I wonder if authors are as deliberate in their wording as we like to think or do they write for the love of writing and let the readers do all the analyzing?

    ginny

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #247 on: July 21, 2015, 10:57:07 AM »
    OH wonderful, Bellamarie, Pat and Halcyon, I love a good debate.

    Here's another view:  I disagree totally. ALL we are seeing is Mr. Hundert's thoughts. There are some descriptions but almost every page, almost every one IS Mr. Hundert's thoughts, it's almost a stream of consciousness and since he's vacillating personally over the piece, so do our opinions of him.

    Here are a few instances, I really can't put them all, they are all there IS:

    "Of course I was sorry for this..." (page 156, this is the third set of  "thoughts" he's expressed on this page. Which is page 2 in the book. Being "sorry" is a feeling. He's not addressing this to any person in the story, he's telling us his feelings. His inmost thoughts.

    "which I hoped would......which I hoped...." on the bottom of the same page. Hope is a feeling, a thought.

    "It was apparent that such efforts...I could see that...." These two are on page 3. Here Mr. Hundert is telling US how he perceives things. This is a feeling.

    "And I knew the look..." Again what he knows. It's quite easy for a person steeped in Roman history to see what is, in fact, an Indirect Statement in Latin, which concerns feelings, thoughts, perceptions. And the author here is using a sub theme of Roman culture to make quite a few delicious points. If he is telling us what he thinks, we're in his mind.

    And we are in no other person's mind in the entire book. There is a reason for this beyond the short story format.

    "In retrospect, however, perhaps my strategy was a mistake."160. He's thinking that perhaps he made a mistake. Thinking is getting into his mind.

    "I said, sensing his motivation..." Again, same page.

    "I admit that the prospect of seeing the man.." page 161, I admit. I concede to myself in my mind.

    "I was bewildered, naturally..." I am confused. Confusion is n the mind, he's telling us what' in his mind.

    "My heart warmed..."  Warm feelings, a feeling again in the mind both of these on page 164.

    I quit marking them down, since they are peppered throughout almost every page but at the end I picked them up again because they are so egregious:

    "I was wounded, of course...:" page 179. What is feeling wounded but a feeling?

    "I lost my advantage by underestimating..." page 179.

    "I began to have second thoughts..." How clear can he be we're hearing his thoughts? page 187.

    "I felt a headiness...:" page 187.

    "I began to fear..." page 186.

    "My heart bled for him..." page 194...

    Next to last page, the denouement...." Still I wanted desperately..."

    If somebody says they wanted desperately, they are telling us their thoughts.

    I think that we  have BEEN in Mr. Hundert's head since the opening pages right to the end, that's why it seems confusing, he's been confused and vacillating and the author has done this deliberately, I believe,  by deliberately making the other characters shadow figures and cardboard by comparison.  ONLY Sedgewick has some character development, (provided totally by the author's descriptions),  but we never know how he FEELS, we only see what he says. There is a difference.

    Can you recall one instance of introspection or feeling, or perception or any other thought in any other character? How  Mr.Woodbridge felt or thought before he said something out loud? Do we know what Sedgewick thought or truly felt? Hurt? Angry?




    ginny

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #248 on: July 21, 2015, 11:12:58 AM »
    And of course I have a theory on this. :) My Caesar theory is proving a fascinating exercise, by the way, because the comparison Mr. H makes to Caesar follows the plot arc but  stops DEAD when Mr. H loses his "conviction."  THIS is some kind of book.

    Bellamarie, on the 50 pages at once?  Have we ever had a book club discussion of 10 pages each week? I wish I had thought of it, to tell you the truth, it would have been a great slow summer journey.


    Here's my theory. In Literary Criticism  (aka Analysis), the tenet is, you can formulate any theory you want, so long as you can back it up with proof from the story, quotes.

    Barbara put in a nice bit about short stories. I'd like to also be a bit analytical and look at the plot lines.  Just a simplistic view. We have a plot, the action begins with a conflict: Sedgewick  Bell, threatening Mr. Hundert's status quo. The action rises and falls,  there IS a sub plot of betrayal with Mr Hunderdt's career, the poor guy is fighting as he says continually, battles on many fronts. In my last reading this morning I was astounded at the battle imagery and quotes. The action rises in suspense to the second contest...will or won't Mr. H reveal all? HE chooses a more passive aggressive way to stop him.

    The climax of the plot: the point to which all the other action has built:

    1. Was it the 2nd contest and the Nahhunte?

    2. Was it the moment Mr. H stood up to the whole school and got Charles Ellerby elected?

    3. Was it the moment Mr. H finally stood UP to the conflicts of the entire book (Sedgewick) and tried to say in front of miners, that is not true?

    4. Is it something else I missed?

    I can't decide. Unlike a lot of other short stories, this one is ambitious. I have kept saying since the start that this story is extremely cleverly written. Here's my theory on what the author has done:

     I don't believe the author ever lets us into Sedgwick Bell's  mind, does he?  He hits the caricature button: the bully: the overweening headmaster; the friend who betrays.   I think the author is doing a lot of interesting manipulation of the reader in this book by the way he wrote it and people have fallen for it ....he's made almost caricatures.... he's fleshed this one out,  but it's ambiguous,  it's an enigma.

    He's fleshed  that one over there out not so much,  in fact he's just cardboard,  he's the cardboard bully,  he hits all of our,  not the other students's,  buttons. It's interesting to me that the ones who are not fleshed  out are the worst in my opinion in the book.

    So if you want to look at this is a theory,  he's fleshed  out the one that he intends as a hero and he's ambiguous because he's got a tragic flaw. The others are not fleshed out because they are the villains.

    Too simplistic a theory?

    Halcyon

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #249 on: July 21, 2015, 11:37:17 AM »
    Ginny, We are seeing Hundert's thoughts but I am wondering if they were feelings as the events happened or was he writing as he wished he would have thought at the time. He's had years to reflect.  If you tell a lie to yourself long enough it may become truth.

    ginny

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #250 on: July 21, 2015, 11:40:45 AM »
    If you tell yourself a lie yesterday or ten years ago and you believe it, are we not still talking about what you think?  Lie or not? Now or then? You're going to be an expert in Indirect Statement when we get there.  :)

    Back tonight.

    bellamarie

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #251 on: July 21, 2015, 12:12:18 PM »
    Ginny, Your theory is possible "IF" the reader saw Sedgewick as the bully, and Mr. H., as the hero, as you feel the author's intent is.

    I was never able to see Sedgewick as a bully, and I have never found a hero in this story.

    Early on, I saw Sedgewick differently than everyone else. 

    I kept seeing Sedgewick as the young, new, cocky student, coming into a class midway, feeling less confident because he is new, and not so very intelligent, so he took on the, let's be funny and disrupt the class approach.  Mr. H., was not sensitive to this young boy, and instead began obsessed with the challenges he posed.  To be clear now, in case others misunderstood me earlier, never did I see Mr. H., sexually inappropriate in thought or action with his so called, "obsession."   It was never about that.

    All the main characters were flawed, (Mr. H., Sedgewick, Senator Bell, Mr. Ellerby, Mr. Woodbridge, and even Deepak,)so I am beginning to think this story is about the challenges in life we experience from an early age on, all the way to our last days seeing our time limited, days gone by, and how we lived them.  Good or bad, successful or not, secluded or outgoing, intelligent or not, intending to cheat or brought into it unknowingly, choosing to lie or tell the truth, trustworthy or not trustworthy, etc., etc., we are indeed responsible for our own words, decision and actions in life.  We ultimately must reap what we sow, and in the end, time will run out, we will come to the end of our life no matter who we are, and when we look back over the years, we may or may not be content with how we lived out those years.  Life is not perfect, nobody's perfect, our imperfections can either help us or hurt us in life, we are the deciding factor of which it will be. 

    For me personally, this reader did not see any heroes in this story, only everyday people who overcame their own personal struggles and weaknesses, and went on with life in spite of them. 

    Is it an oversight on my part, or am I correct in saying, never once throughout this entire story did Mr. H., ever express a time of real happiness?  He seemed a victim throughout to me, a sad man who came to the end of his life with nothing but his memories to sustain him.  He was a very sad character to me.

    Halcyon we were posting at the same time.

    Halcyon
    Quote
    We are seeing Hundert's thoughts but I am wondering if they were feelings as the events happened or was he writing as he wished he would have thought at the time. He's had years to reflect.  If you tell a lie to yourself long enough it may become truth.

    WOW!  What a powerful observation.  Everything in the story is through the eyes of a man who is near the end of his life.  Just how accurate are our feelings and memory at this point in our lives?  For me, I need help from my sisters and friends to remember things from my past years, and even then when they remind me, we don't always agree, feel, or see it the same way.  We the readers have ONLY Mr. H.'s memories in this story. So I have to question the accuracy, on the fact memory does not always serve us well in our older age.

    Imagine if Sedgwick Bell told this story, how different would it be?
    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden

    Halcyon

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #252 on: July 21, 2015, 12:42:17 PM »
    Ginny, Indirect statements haha.

    Bellamarie, I like the idea of telling the story through Sedgwick's eyes.  Or Ellerby's.

    ginny

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #253 on: July 21, 2015, 02:28:43 PM »
    :) I'm going to play Devil's Advocate again.

    Everything in the story is through the eyes of a man who is near the end of his life.  Just how accurate are our feelings and memory at this point in our lives?  For me, I need help from my sisters and friends to remember things from my past years, and even then when they remind me, we don't always agree, feel, or see it the same way.


    Hello? He's 68 years old? He walks 3 miles a day.  I can't speak for anybody else but I'm a good bit older than that and I do hope I'm not "near the end of [my own] life."  hahahaha .  Of course one never knows, does one? In the midst of life.. etc.



    We the readers have ONLY Mr. H.'s memories in this story. So I have to question the accuracy, on the fact memory does not always serve us well in our older age.

    Being in Mr Hundert's head, being privy to his feelings has absolutely nothing to do with the accuracy or age of those feelings?  It's how he or remembers feeling,  period. Right or wrong, accurate or not.

    It's a mechanical technique, a literary device,  done by the author to present the story, and that's all it is.

    Bellamarie, I am using the words "hero," and "villain" facetiously. In fact since Mr. Hundert is familiar with ancient cultures, he knows,  as does the author,  that a Hero has lots of flaws. Ancient heroes were flawed people. (We're the only ones who insist we are perfect). I will amend my description of Sedgewick to "troubled child and man."

    Since the author himself has stated who the....person..... is in the story he finds admirable (I need to put the heading back up in the first post here, we may have lost sight of this), here it is again:


    Quote
    Ethan Canin: The theme has to do with the power of a quiet life… The power of a man to really make a change with his heart, his soul, as opposed to having to be rich. A different kind of idol… A teacher’s life is a very powerful, dignified life. We shouldn’t forget that. That’s what Mr. Hundert loses sight of in the movie, and regains in the end. God bless a great teacher… I didn’t have many. "


    I think here we can see who the hero, in the classical sense,  is to Dr. Canin, flawed or not.

    The thing is, do YOU all, the readers, agree with him?


    ginny

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #254 on: July 21, 2015, 02:54:49 PM »



    Topic #3: The Thieves of Integrity/ Plot/ Final Thoughts/ The Palace Thief


    Ethan Canin: The theme has to do with the power of a quiet life… The power of a man to really make a change with his heart, his soul, as opposed to having to be rich. A different kind of idol… A teacher’s life is a very powerful, dignified life. We shouldn’t forget that. That’s what Mr. Hundert loses sight of in the movie, and regains in the end. God bless a great teacher… I didn’t have many. "

  • 1. Do you agree with the author on what the theme of the book is? Why or why not?

  • 2. What do you see the climax of the book to be?

    ------------- Was it the 2nd contest and the Nahhunte?

    --------------Was it the moment Mr. Hundert stood up to the whole school and got Charles Ellerby elected?

    ---------------Was it the moment Mr. Hundert finally stood UP to the conflicts of the entire book (Sedgewick) and tried to say in front of miners, that is not true?

    ---------------Is it something else?

  • 3. "By some fallen column, by some chaste ruin, the thieves of integrity wait...."

    ( Hilary Mantel, in Wolf Hall)......

    . "Virtue had no place in the palaces he had known.." (page 196).

  • What does the title of the book mean?



  • BarbStAubrey

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #255 on: July 21, 2015, 05:01:40 PM »
    Like a bunch of observers giving an account to the police of a road accident - we all see this from a different perspective - we have all had enough differences in our lives and our experiences with teachers as well as, various classmates, some who go on to live fuller lives than others.

    And so I would be shocked if we came down to one viewpoint about any of these characters, what the story has accomplished or even to agree on what is a thought versus a feeling.

    E.g. to me when Mr. H. says he hopes does not suggest a feeling of yearning that the word hope can convey - to me it sounds like  - If I, Mr. H. had my druthers... - which is giving a nod to, if I could control the event, another, the outcome, whatever...

    The same to 'know a look' - which is saying I have a gut reaction based on my past experiences - reminds me of the game popular in the early 70s of showing photos of folks and we guessed based on appearance and facial arrangement what was going on with the person. All it did was prove to us we make judgments about others by sight based on our own experience or interpretation. Plus the verb is to know - regardless if he felt warm towards, leery of, delighted with, suspicious of, Mr. H. 'knew' the look which altered his opinion of what he was looking at based on his own history.

    My take is we would not have a story that was without opinion as if a non-biased report - we have a character telling a story that is based on the backstory of this character - the story is told by him. His version of what happened that would come out of what he understood was his job and how he performed that job given his assessment of the behavior of others and like all of us, through the screen of our past experiences, cultural association, education, social skills, emotional balance and sophistication.

    I think back to Dana's comment about the arrogance of anyone thinking they should mold another - regardless 'molding' seems to still be a feature of some schools its really today not even seen as a job for a parent - parent classes for over 20 years are about how to guide, offer opportunity, decision making together etc. Where as when mold was the way, that meant, do all you can to make someone believe and behave a certain way - with the word 'make' being the operative word.

    We make things - we influence people - many of us were educated during the 'make students into' time in education and is why we have memories of punishment or coercion - the 'power over' model - I will make you, hone you, pound in a level of competence, sweetly introduce that you are expected to enjoy or at least learn from etc. with no concern for a student's personal learning style or life experiences. The narcissistic "when you are in MY classroom you will..." was rampant.

    Today we know differently and realize teaching and learning is a team effort that starts with the two year old when, rather than 'make' them do something they are given two choices e.g. it is time for you nap do you want to take such and such stuffed animal or the quilt grandma made - do you want milk when you wake up or grape juice and so a classroom continues to be a place where the experience of students outside the classroom becomes part of the group learning references.

    Compared to teachers from the 'make' or 'mold' school of thought this link I think is a good one that lists the attitude and work of a teacher today.   
    http://www.edutopia.org/discussion/heart-teaching-what-it-means-be-great-teacher

    We know that Mr. H. had good intentions and was a good teacher using a different older standard to measure a good teacher - and yes, it is a stretch for us to place ourselves in  those classroom years and for others of us it was an easy recognition but regardless, we were hearing about the experience of Mr. Hundert and how he taught with the mindset of a 'make' or 'mold' directive in his job - he was not successful regardless the reasons; regardless the support or lack of, regardless the different expectations of the others in the story - his directive was to mold his students to live with a certain value system and he did not do it with at least this one student. And we see evidence that he did not always live up to his own values regardless the because.

    And so he was reminiscing on his career efforts - when anyone has a failure we are not comfortable believing it was all our fault and part of our storytelling is to make sure we see the fault in the other or the system that allowed you, with the best of intentions, to fail. He does a fairly adequate job of admitting his own mistakes but, he does not go deep into unraveling his expectations for certain intimacies or how he projected expectation for the behavior of others, based on protocol, tradition, shyness, his own limited view on relationships in or out of the classroom.

    In their old age he does not develop a more intimate friendship with Deepak than he did with Sedgewick or Hyram those many years ago - we only have his thoughts on the friendship he developed with Charles Ellerby so that we really do not know, more than a few personal opinions, how strong and informal was the friendship - if it was anything like the friendship he maintained with Deepak, who was probably only about 10 years younger, then, the friendship with Charles may not have been any more intimate and his expectation for loyalty may not have been realistic or at minimum based on a code of honor that was a leftover from the days when relationships were a surface encounter.

    Bottom line, I see this story as a tell all - a sorta confession that also suggests Mr. Hundert's good opinion of himself and how he performed his job that included a failing attempt to mold the character of student who became a public figure as well as, pointing fingers as part of the cause of this failure. 
    “A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

    Jonathan

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #256 on: July 21, 2015, 05:06:59 PM »
    What are the readers saying? It's just as Halcyon reminds us. The author leaves it all to the reader in allowing Mr Hundert to tell his story without the benefit or intrusion of some omniscient  author outguessing him. The teacher tells his story. Not all of it, just the game-changing crises. St Benedict's was my life, he tells us. He loved to teach. Greek and Roman history. And he does for forty years. How painful it must have been to hear the senator's son who bullied him all those yerrs ago, now a vote-chasing politician, telling the miners that he taught at Richmond High! How painful when he's asked to leave St Benedict's, or put out to pasture, by the new Headmaster.

    It is sad. But wait a minute. His parting words are that he has found a new interest. If Rome has become irrelevant, how about Japan. And he can already see his students dressed in their kimonos fit for a shogun. When his former bullying student has presidential ambitions his former teacher feels otherwise. That kid will never be president, and off he goes to the tabloids. I can't change my mind about that.

    bellamarie

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #257 on: July 21, 2015, 05:24:53 PM »
    GinnyHello? He's 68 years old? He walks 3 miles a day.  I can't speak for anybody else but I'm a good bit older than that and I do hope I'm not "near the end of [my own] life."  hahahaha .  Of course one never knows, does one? In the midst of life.. etc.

    Oh but now you have made the same mistake everyone has pointed out to me many times throughout the book...You have brought Mr. H., being 68 yrs. old back in the 1940's, as if he were in the here and now, 2015. 

    We all know for certain a 68 yr old male today, due to better health, technology, medical advances, and knowledge of better care and food choices, has an increased life expectancy than in the 1940's.  A 68 yr old male in the 40's would be over their life expectancy.  You also must factor in he is male, so you can not compare Mr. H., to yourself, since you are a female, and your life expectancy merely on your sex would be higher.

    http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005148.html

    According to this graph: in 1940 a white male's life expectancy was the age of 62.  Today it is 76 yrs old for a white male,  and 81 for a woman. 

    So, Mr. H., would have had less cognitive skills and memory at his age, especially being six years over his life expectancy.  Hmmmmm....makes me wonder if Ethan Canin the author even gave this any consideration when he wrote this story and choosing Mr. H.'s age, and saying he walks 3 miles a day.  For back then, that would make him like super man.   :o
    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden

    bellamarie

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #258 on: July 21, 2015, 05:38:31 PM »
    So, Jonathan, you are convinced Mr. H. is responsible for Sedgewick not becoming president because he went to the tabloids and ratted out Sedgewick?  Hmmmm...would cheating and lying as a student, or even as an adult, about where he went to school, be a deal breaker?   That's a bit of a stretch for me.

    If in fact that was the outcome, then it would make Mr. H., an even more sadder man than I ever imagined, because he just could not get out of the way, and let Sedgewick alone.  Wouldn't his actions show he was driven by revenge, considering he was as much a cheat and liar as Sedgewick?

    Hmmmm....so yet one more possible way to see the title "The Palace Thief"  In your theory, he Presidency could be the Palace (as in White House), and Mr. Hundert, the thief, by going to the tabloids with whatever you feel he had to prevent Sedgewick from winning the presidency.   Now there is food for thought!
    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden

    ginny

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #259 on: July 21, 2015, 05:53:45 PM »
    A 68 yr old male in the 40's would be over their life expectancy.  You also must factor in he is male, so you can not compare Mr. H., to yourself, since you are a female, and your life expectancy merely on your sex would be higher.

    He's not in the 40's any longer. He was in his 20's when he began. He taught 41 years. It's not the 40's. 68 is not a death sentence for all men. :) My poor husband, I had no idea. I'll tell him when he gets in from fishing.

    bellamarie

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #260 on: July 21, 2015, 06:01:17 PM »
    OOooops.....Okay, so if he were in his 20's in the 40's that means it was late 1970s-80s and the life expectancy then was 70, it still makes my argument he would have less cognitive skills, memory, and walking 3 miles a day sounds a bit much, nor can he be compared to yourself (Ginny), your husband, or any white male in 2015.  In all fairness, I did not say it was a "death sentence" at the age of 68, I said he would be nearing his end of life, which in his time era would be very true, by the statistics chart.

    I consider myself pretty active, athletic, and sharp in mind at the age of 63 today, but I can definitely say, I am not so sharp when I try to go back and remember things 40 yrs ago.  Like I said, I need help from others who were there, and even then I see it, and feel differently about it than others.  Either way, it is only Mr. H.'s narrative, so the accuracy is as good as his memory.
    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden

    BarbStAubrey

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #261 on: July 21, 2015, 06:09:32 PM »
    OK what is a Palace -

    A hall, a temple, a royal court, a large a stately mansion, a castle (which means it has to have a room for armament), a seat of authority.

    The palace symbolizes a human mind.
    Poe uses the windows in the palace to symbolize two human eyes,

    The Crystal Palace became a symbol of modernity and technology,
    In Beowulf the building is like a palace,

    "Runs in blood down Palace walls."men that die for rulers who do not care in William Blake’s “London”.
    "I cleared me ground for a Palace such as a King should build." Kipling,
    "In the greenest of our valleys / By good angels tenanted, / Once a fair and stately palace—" again Poe.
    “A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

    BarbStAubrey

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #262 on: July 21, 2015, 06:15:38 PM »
    I am seeing many ways the Palace could be symbolizing an aspect of this story - from St. Benedict's being a Palace, to the characters inner selves being their Palace to even our own inner self being a Palace - a seat of power - where, like Poe's windows as eyes, with our eyes we read and discern what we read based on what we know and what we more recently learn.

    Is each individual character operating from their own Palace and are the others or the expectations the thief or are they themselves the thief of their own best intentions - I am beginning to think as the story we found many meanings hidden among simple wordings so too the Palace may be something different to each of us or to each part of the story with thieves abounding.
    “A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

    bellamarie

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #263 on: July 21, 2015, 06:28:01 PM »
    I have had two theories as to what the title is referencing to.

    !.  I said early on I saw each individual as the Palace (their body/mind) and I saw themselves as the thief, robbing themselves of their character, morals and from becoming the best they could be.

    2.  After reading Jonathan's last post,  I could see the Presidency (White House) as being the Palace, and Mr. Hundert the thief, robbing Sedgewick from winning the presidency by going to the tabloids, assuming he did, to ruin his chances, by ratting him out as a liar, cheater etc.

    I even wonder if the author himself had only one Palace, and one thief in mind, when he wrote this story.  Wouldn't it be so interesting to have him here to pick his mind?
    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden

    ginny

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #264 on: July 21, 2015, 07:53:46 PM »
    I think the author would be over the moon to find a group who feel so strongly that his character is so real and feel so passionately about it that they could argue over the details. I can understand why nobody wants to admit the author's hand in this (even tho he created the character and put him in the story  the way he did): it's a tribute to his skill as an author.

    And maybe YOUR skill as book discussants.

    I like the quote Hilary Mantel used: "By some fallen column, by some chaste ruin, the thieves of integrity wait...."

    I like that because it references Ozymandias, and Nahhunte, which are themes of the book, too. And they unfortunately presaged Mr. Hundert's fall.

     I think the Palace is  a man's Integrity. Something he builds up, a shining crystal tower of idealism. The thieves are the same as in the Mantel quote: the things and people  that come along and little by little steal your integrity: greed, envy, self promotion, everything you have mentioned. Those are, to me, the thieves that matter, the ones who steal your integrity little by little. YOU have to allow them to do that, though, and paradoxically it's their corruption of you that makes it the worst.

    I doubt anybody will agree with this one either, but to me that's what matters in this story: integrity and how we allow ourselves to lose it.

    It's very interesting to me that while this is a book,  and is entirely fiction, I have seen it acted out  in real life. It's fascinating how life imitates art.

    I totally identify with Mr. Hundert in so many aspects of his life. I always have. The good ones. His love of teaching, his love of the subject, how it's his life, how much it means.  I think he's a good man who got caught in too many jaws at once, which he couldn't handle, and in his trying TO handle them,  made mistakes. We all make mistakes.

    Does he redeem himself? The author thinks he did. Has he been happy in the book? Definitely. Is he happy now? Should he be? I think so. I think he should forgive himself and reach back out to  Deepak and build a new friendship, he needs one, I think.

    Super super short story, and one which proves a short story can be wonderfully engaging, and complex.  We can all have our different theories about what the title means: there are no right or wrong answers here (except my husband is a lot older than 68. :)_)

    Such fun this has been. Any  last thoughts?


    Halcyon

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #265 on: July 21, 2015, 11:17:07 PM »
    Ginny, After your earlier post I spent the afternoon rethinking the meaning of the title.  Palaces became the students under Mr. Hundert's tutelage.  As their teacher he sought to instill in them, through the lessons of history, discipline and integrity.  The thief is the world outside the classroom.  Sons following in their father's footsteps or fulfilling the dreams families had for them certainly meant these former students had to forgo some of the lessons learned in the classroom.  Virtue was systematically  chipped away to obtain success.  Similar to what you came up with although I still like the idea of time being the thief and man or civilization being the palace.  Page 157:  It is critical for any man of import to understand his own insignificance before the sands of time, and this is what my classroom always showed my boys.

    After Sedgwick announces his candidacy Mr. Hundert resolved to avoid him, went to his room and looked out the window.  Page 197: Standing at the glass, I felt like the spurned sovereign in the castle tower, looking down from his balcony onto the procession of the false potentate.

    Mr. Hundert did speak at the miners' rally and with this act he finally found peace within himself.  He points out that one does not alter history without conviction but it was enough for him to know that he did speak.  What a difference between this Mr. Hundert and the one looking over the balcony at the false potentate.  Acceptance at long last.

    bellamarie

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #266 on: July 22, 2015, 01:06:24 AM »
    Ginny, I like your theory, it is very similar to my #1 theory, which I came to early on, and Barb's last post.  Great minds think alike! 

    By all statistics your hubby should be a lot older than 68 today, and still enjoying his fishing, and other activities.  Life is great, and we should live it to the fullest at every age.  I hear people say, "Sixty is the new forty, and eighty is the new sixty."  I sure like that!

    I felt much sadness throughout the story, and especially at the end.  Mr. H., may have gotten his self satisfaction, by speaking in the end even though his mic was off, he may have very well have gone to the tabloids, but I saw the motive of his actions more out of revenge, which can be a double edge sword, you not only hurt the person you are aiming for, but you also hurt yourself as well.

    Confucius said, "Before you embark on the journey of revenge, dig two graves."

    The greatness of a book discussion for me, is when we have many different ways we all see it.  Much like a prism, each way you look at it, you see yet another color.  I have a feeling this story is going to stay with us a good long time, and I can see us weeks from now, maybe even months later thinking of a new Palace Thief!
    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden

    ginny

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #267 on: July 22, 2015, 11:48:11 AM »
    Halcyon, how beautifully reasoned that was. I loved this: Page 197: Standing at the glass, I felt like the spurned sovereign in the castle tower, looking down from his balcony onto the procession of the false potentate.

    The prince and the palace.  I love the idea of time being the thief.

    In fact there has not been an idea here about what the title meant that I did not think was possible, plausible, and good.

    I loved this, that Barbara said: Is each individual character operating from their own Palace and are the others or the expectations the thief or are they themselves the thief of their own best intentions - I am beginning to think as the story we found many meanings hidden among simple wordings so too the Palace may be something different to each of us or to each part of the story with thieves abounding.


    Now THAT was fabulous. A person himself the thief of his own best intentions. Love it.

    I love this, too, Bellamarie: . Much like a prism, each way you look at it, you see yet another color.  I have a feeling this story is going to stay with us a good long time, and I can see us weeks from now, maybe even months later thinking of a new Palace Thief!

    I really like that perspective. That's a wonderful way to put it. It is a wonderful choice for  a book discussion, just LOOK at all the different takes on the palace, the thief, and the thoughtful commentary on all things  offered here, all of which really add something to our overall experience of the story.

    Really one for the Books. I will also be thinking of it for a long time. :)

    Halcyon

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #268 on: July 22, 2015, 01:51:02 PM »
    Last night I read Batorsag and Szerelem.  I loved it and recommend you all read it.  I thought the story was familiar so I googled the title and, indeed, there is a movie adapted from the story called Beautiful Ohio starring William Hurt and Rita Wilson.  Now I must watch that again.

    Ginny, Thank you for leading this discussion.  It was such fun.  I'm beginning to realize I like short story and poetry discussions rather than very long books.  What's next? Anybody know?

    PatH

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #269 on: July 22, 2015, 02:44:36 PM »
    Is it over?  I thought we had another 10 days.

    Minor point: we've all been assuming Hundert called the reporters on Sedgewick, but that actually seems unlikely.  The only damaging thing Hundert had about S. was his cheating in school--hardly enough for a tabloid exposé.  And Hundert says he's writing this to get it on the record, implying he hadn't told anybody before.

    BarbStAubrey

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #270 on: July 22, 2015, 02:57:51 PM »
    Frankly I did not like any of them - given my druthers I would never have met up with any of them by choice after I was introduced to them - the biggest issue I had with all of them is they were full of opinions and answers but did not show a curiosity for life or each other that usually shows itself in having lots of questions - as things happened they simply turned to what they knew or imagined - boring and self-important - however, like them or not it was a fabulous story that I really enjoyed not only pulling it apart but hearing all of us pull it apart. I cannot remember having more fun and going deeper into a story in quite awhile.

    A story that showed ordinary people finding their place and way among folks who all had their different priorities - it was fascinating and then to deduce what was the view point of the one telling the story versus imagining how the others were viewing the happenings - it was a window into the simple life we deal with daily and just assume we are all in it together with a common set of values - the values may be agreed upon as ideal but it appears there is a push and tug to weave ourselves around those values when we are committed to an achievement that involves others, from the lofty level of state and national politics to the classroom. Yep, that is what I saw, an exercise in community development and the jocking for and of power within the community.

    Ginny I too have to echo - great discussion - a simple story that was dynamite and your questions pushed us to really pull this story apart - good show...thanks.   
    “A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

    bellamarie

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #271 on: July 22, 2015, 03:46:21 PM »
    PatH.,  I actually never bought the theory Mr. H., ratted Sedgewick out, because it would be one cheater telling on another cheater. Like you, I felt he did not have enough on Sedgewick, other than cheating in the competitions, and lying about his high school, which I can't imagine being enough to keep him from winning the presidency.  Since Jonathan felt it was a possibility, I wanted to explore the "what "IF" he did theory.  It was a bit fun, because it brought me to the Palace being the White House, and Mr. H. being the thief
     
    Barb, I am with you, there was not one of the characters I really cared for.  As a teacher myself, I could not warm up to Mr. H., or Sedgewick, they both were immature and reactionary.  The other characters were background, to fill the story.  But oh what a story it was! 

    Ginny, you were a great moderator, and devil's advocate.  You posed so many questions, I don't think we could possibly have answered all of them, but we sure did our best.  No stone unturned, it's  the SeniorLearn motto! 

    I thank all of you for your great insights, and yes, this one challenged me more than any other book I can remember. Until the next discussion.

    Ciao for now~

    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden

    Jonathan

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #272 on: July 22, 2015, 05:48:05 PM »
    PatH: 'Minor point: we've all been assuming Hundert called the reporters on Sedgewick, but that actually seems unlikely.  The only damaging thing Hundert had about S. was his cheating in school--hardly enough for a tabloid exposé.  And Hundert says he's writing this to get it on the record, implying he hadn't told anybody before.'

    Pat, your minor point, is a major problem for me. Too many things fall into place if I see Mr Hundert going to the tabloids with his information. That word 'vengeful' tabloids convinced me. What would the tabloids have to be vengeful about. Mr Hundert, on the other hand, has been robbed of his character and integrity. His career lies in ruins. His students have let him down. St Benedicts has let him down.

    'I tell this story not for my honor....' But it is. And that is the first thing he tells us in his story. It's not Sedgewick's cheating that bothers Mr Hundert...sorry, I'm called to dinner...more, much more, later.

    ginny

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #273 on: July 22, 2015, 08:26:21 PM »
    Thank you Halcyon, how kind of you. That book also looks really good. I also love poetry and short stories and I'm glad that we stuck our collective necks out and tried one.  It was a very rewarding experience, for me.

    Pat, perhaps the "leading" part is over, and we're to the dessert,  and now we can talk on if we like into the wee hours, and have a lovely confab about it, just enjoy the conversation. I did not think that Mr. Hundert notified the tabloids at all. Or what he might have said.  But I know Jonathan did. My theory concerned a reporter overhearing Mr. H say that's not right in front of the miners,  and doing his own sleuthing.

    Even tho that's not something a "tabloid" would likely want to get hold of, lying to pander to a certain society would certainly be, in a political year, in my estimation.

    Thank you Bellamarie, I always have more questions than answers, about anything.


    I tell this story not for my honor....' But it is. And that is the first thing he tells us in his story. That's something we actually didn't talk about and Jonathan has picked up on it. I am looking forward to seeing what Jonathan thinks IS the reason he's told the story. Since he's saying it's not for this and not for that, maybe what he says it IS for is the opposite, too.

    I keep wondering who he is telling it to.  And why he is telling it now.  That is sort of still up in the air, to me.

    Halcyon, yes, the next discussion will begin August 10 and Barbara has a rare surprise treat in store! Stay tuned!


    "I cannot remember having more fun and going deeper into a story in quite awhile. "
      Now THERE is an epitaph! Thank you,  Barbara,and all of you for your great points.  It HAS been fun, hasn't it? I really have enjoyed this.

    Everybody feel free to bring up anything.


    bellamarie

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #274 on: July 22, 2015, 09:53:22 PM »
    What a treat, a dessert to top the discussion off with!  Now this is a first that I can remember. I feel like the Olson twins.....We're pulling an overnighter!!  Okay, so how many of you even know who the Olson twins are to relate to that movie & song.  Hint..Mary Kate & Ashley, and they were my 20 yr old granddaughter's favorite to watch from the time she was 2 yrs old and still will come over and sit and watch the VHS tape collection I bought for her. 

    What fun the pressure is off!    :) ;) :D ;D >:( :o 8) ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :'(

    I have always wanted to do that!   Ginny did say we could talk about anything!! 

    Okay on a more serious note, I for one am waiting with bated breath to hear what is up Jonathan's sleeve.  He almost had me convinced that sly ole Mr. H., could have prevented Sedgewick from winning the presidency with his observations.  I'm open for more book quotes to show it's a possibility.  On assumption or speculation, it doesn't carry weight with me.

     
    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden

    Frybabe

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #275 on: July 23, 2015, 05:45:12 AM »
    This has been a wonderful discussion of an extraordinary story. Thanks, Ginny, et.al. I am looking forward to Barb's surprise.

    ginny

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #276 on: July 23, 2015, 08:16:53 AM »
    Thank you, Frybabe, that's very kind of you.

    Bellamarie, oh yes, I have heard of Kate and Ashley...is it Olson? (sp) Isn't one of them going around with Sarkozy? (sp)  But in their adult (somewhat zombie looking) years is how I know them. They are both very attractive and just lately it seems they have started to quit with the awful make up and look more human.

    Another thing that interested me about The Palace Thief is how we as readers projected ourselves ONTO the characters.  There's something that either clicks with us or does not, when we read a book, it can be positive or negative.

    Something in our past that hits a button: of recognition or disgust or bad or good experience. Sometimes I wonder why we read at all. Do we keep looking for ourselves or hoping to learn something about ourselves? Mr. Hundert's life is about as far removed in 2015 from most of us that you can get, yet there seem to be some markers, some identifying markers that we think we know him from.

    I think it's fascinating:  reading, and discussing books. There are only two books in our entire history I have despised and actually threw in the trash (and I've missed a lot of book discussions lately). One was The Liar's Club.. by Mary Karr, I think her name was. I  have no idea why that hit so many buttons with me, but it did. Threw it in the trash. She followed that with Cherry, which should be no surprise. They are both memoirs. The first one is about how she lied her way thru her life to date and thought she was exceeding clever. I am in no doubt what the second is about, are you?

    The other was that perfectly awful New Zealand book about the abuse of a child.  One of the members at the time staunchly defended the author and it was like a nightmare from start to finish. I recall the remark made "one of our members (that was me)  has said she won't read books about child abuse or incest: can you imagine?" Yes, just imagine such narrow mindedness!

    Garbage in, Garbage out.

    I burned that one. Yes I did, and it was too good for it.

    I wonder what one thing in this book that we have not mentioned here yet  resonated the most with you, good or bad?




    bellamarie

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #277 on: July 23, 2015, 08:39:51 AM »
    Ginny, Yes the Olson twins have gone through some troubling years growing up into adults.  They began their acting career when they were just a baby as Michelle on Full House, and went right into making their various movies, so it did not surprise me when Mary-Kate began dressing very strange and got overly thin into her teens/adulthood.  Her sister/twin Ashley was very concerned for her.  I think she was having an identity crisis, and possibly drugs.  They seem to be doing okay now.

    Quote
    Another thing that interested me about The Palace Thief is how we as readers projected ourselves ONTO the characters.  There's something that either clicks with us or does not, when we read a book, it can be positive or negative.


    I think you said it best,  I do believe when people read a book they find themselves trying to identify with one of the characters in the story, no matter what the story may be about.  It is our human nature to want to see ourselves, or to relate at least to something or someone.  So this reminded me of looking up "realistic fiction" while reading this story, and I think it would fit in this genre.

    Short stories and novels that make you feel like you are getting to know real people dealing with believable situations can be considered realistic fiction. Their plots are the opposite of those involving magical beings and imagined creatures, but they can excite your mind just as easily by connecting you to relatable characters and conflicts that seem so plausible.

    What is Realistic Fiction?
    Realistic fiction is a genre consisting of stories that could have actually occurred to people or animals in a believable setting. These stories resemble real life, and fictional characters within these stories react similarly to real people.

    Stories that are classified as realistic fiction have plots that highlight social or personal events or issues that mirror contemporary life, such as falling in love, marriage, finding a job, divorce, alcoholism, etc. They depict our world and our society.

    Characteristics of Realistic Fiction
    A quick way to classify a story or novel as realistic fiction is to identify the following characteristics within that literary work.

    1. Realistic fiction stories tend to take place in the present or recent past.

    2. Characters are involved in events that could happen.

    3. Characters live in places that could be or are real.

    4. The characters seem like real people with real issues solved in a realistic way. (So say goodbye to stories containing vampires, werewolves, sorcerers, dragons, zombies, etc.)

    5. The events portrayed in realistic fiction conjure questions that a reader could face in his/her life.


    http://study.com/academy/lesson/what-is-realistic-fiction-definition-characteristics-examples.html

    I fear my granddaughter has inherited my trait of the character relating, because she has read and gone to everyone of her books made into movies, and tells me how she relates to such and such.   ;)
    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden

    Halcyon

    • Posts: 1161
    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #278 on: July 23, 2015, 08:53:05 AM »
    I don't know if this was mentioned.  Most of us in this group seem to have children, grands, siblings husbands, wives, friends or a church family.  Mr. H had none of these.  At times I bury myself in a book and leave my family behind.  I don't want to think of my husband's recent surgery, my son's upcoming wedding, my sister-in-law's search for the perfect dress or my niece's problems with her mother-in-law.  I'm sure you all understand what I'm saying.  Along with the sometime annoying traits of all family come joy and laughter.  Mr. H has none of this.  He depends on his boys to visit once in a while.  I'm not sure what I think of this.  He has chosen this life.  It seems like he's in neutral, no ups or downs.  I wonder if he would be a good poker player?

    bellamarie

    • Posts: 4147
    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #279 on: July 23, 2015, 09:05:48 AM »
    I am with you Halcyon on escaping into my books, and leaving everything else behind for a few hours. 



    I think I could have seen Mr. H., a much less sadder man had he had family or friends. 
    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden