Palace Thief (The) by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online

[PatH]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

July Book Club Online: July 7-31

The Palace Thief
by Ethan Canin

"Ethan Canin: The theme has to do with the power of a quiet life… The power of a man to really make a change with his heart, his soul, as opposed to having to be rich. A different kind of idol… A teacher’s life is a very powerful, dignified life. We shouldn’t forget that. That’s what Mr. Hundert loses sight of in the movie, and regains in the end. God bless a great teacher… I didn’t have many. "

Topic #3: The Thieves of Integrity/ Plot/ Final Thoughts/ The Palace Thief

Ethan Canin: The theme has to do with the power of a quiet life… The power of a man to really make a change with his heart, his soul, as opposed to having to be rich. A different kind of idol… A teacher’s life is a very powerful, dignified life. We shouldn’t forget that. That’s what Mr. Hundert loses sight of in the movie, and regains in the end. God bless a great teacher… I didn’t have many. " 1. Do you agree with the author on what the theme of the book is? Why or why not? 2. What do you see the climax of the book to be? ------------- Was it the 2nd contest and the Nahhunte? --------------Was it the moment Mr. Hundert stood up to the whole school and got Charles Ellerby elected? ---------------Was it the moment Mr. Hundert finally stood UP to the conflicts of the entire book (Sedgewick) and tried to say in front of miners, that is not true? ---------------Is it something else? 3. "By some fallen column, by some chaste ruin, the thieves of integrity wait...." ( Hilary Mantel, in Wolf Hall)...... . "Virtue had no place in the palaces he had known.." (page 196). What does the title of the book mean?

Interesting Links:

Annotations for The Palace Thief from  Chulalongkorn University   *Spoiler: At the bottom of this list of annotations is a set of questions and a link to an interview with the author about what he intended, so if you don't like to see that type of thing at the outset and would rather think for yourself, don't read down that far. We can decide later if he actually did achieve what he intended to show or if he didn't.

Discussion Leader: Ginny

[PatH]

Halcyon, that's an important point that hasn't yet been stressed.  Mr. H is missing many of the things that make life rich and meaningful.  All he has is his love of history, and of teaching it.  I've known people like this.  With some of them it seems like a poverty of spirit.  With others it doesn't.  They're "living not widely but deeply" and the richness of whatever they concentrate on makes up for what they miss.

Which is Mr. Hundert?

[PatH]

And I'm with both of you about escaping into books.  You come out refreshed and stronger.

[BarbStAubrey]

oh lordy I remember that one from New Zealand - about the first people - forget what they were called and basically how they continued their traditions in a modern society - something about a young girls who rides a huge fish out to sea and is a god to the culture or something like that - it was awful and I think the reason for the support was because some of our readers at the time included 2 from New Zealand and if think it was 4 from Australia who had a better understanding and connection with the culture.

I'm also remembering in the very early years something about Stone and the gal who I admired so from Chicago either led it or was a huge contributer - her name alludes me something like Joyce Staple or Stutdz or I do not know - anyhow the story had to do with a dwarf who symbolized being different -

Just could not take the image of a dwarf and that the dwarf was the symbol of differences - somehow that idea turned my tummy - could be because my memory pictures of that Italian movie after WWII in Italy - do not even remember the name of it either but the movie had strange characters, one being a dwarf which was a common addition in so many European stories -

I was going to look into it and found something about the dwarfs finding security and shelter being the king's fools - anyhow, that whole issue just turned me off - looking back I bet it was because of the powerless nature and need to be dependent on abusive treatment that was the life of a dwarf. Still gives me the chills. 

Wow four posts while I was writing - I guess I am not a big Realistic Novel fan Bellamarie - to me it is boring to look at the intricacies of a life written as the Sturm und Drang, of life most often as a tragicomedy or tragic irony or even as a tragic flaw - grrr reminds me of those who would 'chop down a tree' because it has a crooked trunk or its shade is in the 'wrong' place or its in the way of a new highway or or or and just maybe it ends with a savior protecting the tree or the wayward tree showing its value.

Also reminds me of this rush to judge and find fault with folks similar to the old and now recurring habit of using tweets etc. to gossip about people.  I am still remembering when it was considered to read a magazine filled with Hollywood gossip at best a 'sin' or, geared to the gossiping habits of those who seldom read books - ah so, like Mr. H. the life as I knew it, that was taught in my St. Benedict's is a relic of history without veneration by current authors and readers, who no longer see the uncomfortable characteristics of characters as those very characteristics needed to tell the story but rather as the story itself. If characteristics are for me too loathsome I just set the book aside. Never have burned one or even trashed one    love it...

Ha what an observation if he would be a good poker player - and yes, we do have our ongoing family joys and stresses - and frankly over the years seeing some of these very stresses and even joys played out in various novels and seeing how they contributed to the over all was so calming for me - it helped me see how it all fits even if it is very very uncomfortable at times.

Yes, Mr. H. reminds me of that old song about being a paper doll - it does seem like his life is limited to as Pat says, to history and teaching but then my take is, the author is focusing on one aspect of Mr. H. without the concept of a bio that let us know if he had family or why he chose to teach at St. Benedict's or what he did to celebrate Christmas or even if he attended Mass at St. Benedict's - he seems to be very one or two dimensional.

Reminds me of a book I had as a child called something like - 'And What Happened Then' or maybe 'What happened Ever After' - it was a continuation of many of our favorite childhood stories that simply ended with - 'and they lived happily ever after.' - very un-satisfying ending to a child with lots of imagination. Looks like we need a - 'And What Happened Then' or really a, 'What Started Before and During' for our Mr. H.

[bellamarie]

Barb,

I guess I am not a big Realistic Novel fan Bellamarie - to me it is boring to look at the intricacies of a life written as the Sturm und Drang, of life most often as a tragicomedy or tragic irony or even as a tragic flaw - grrr reminds me of those who would 'chop down a tree' because it has a crooked trunk or its shade is in the 'wrong' place or its in the way of a new highway or or or and just maybe it ends with a savior protecting the tree or the wayward tree showing its value.

Hahahaha.....this made me laugh out loud. I think I am not thinking of books with that particular plot in mind.  I am not into the tragic comedy or tragic irony, or even tragic flaw either.  My granddaughter seems to keep choosing those type of books and they are usually made into movies, like The Fault In Our Stars, Safe Haven, If I Stay, Gone Girl, and many others. 

On this list this link provides, there are quite a few I have found interesting and enjoyed, like To Kill A Mockingbird, and The Help.

http://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/realistic-fiction

I can't wait to read, Go Set A Watchman by Harper Lee.

[BarbStAubrey]

Only ordered it last week and it came on Monday but have not had time to sit long enough to read - I am looking forward to reading a grown up Scout - When you get your copy and start reading let me know what you think - I have heard mixed reviews. I think Mary Page said it brought to life a typical older white southern male outlook in the 1960s where as it seems some would have preferred him being a firebrand liberal for Civil Rights that probably would be in keeping with the 90's.

Yes, my daughter-in-law also gobbles up books and a couple of authors I found that bridged the light lunch type story to at least a supper although not dinner are Patrick Taylor who does an Irish Doctor series and really good storyteller is David Liss who puts his characters in interesting times in history with a plot that features not only some little known aspect of the circumstances but does include conflicting attitudes by various groups at the time.

One I remember is actually telling the tale of the beginning of what today we know as the Stock Market. This buying and selling of interests in businesses started in the Pubs of Britain. Another was how the Banks in the US were started and the difference in support between Hamilton and Jackson. All his books are not about money - his books include a variety of historical issues that are at the core of the story. 

[Jonathan]

Don't hold your breath, Bellamarie. I have nothing up my sleeve. But I never  imagined that the life of teacher could be so turbulent. His telling has been a bit devious, but he does make a thriller out of it. It leaves me wanting to know more about the ups and downs of teaching. And I have found two on my shelf. The Rector of Justin, by Louis Auchincloss, and Ravelstein, by Saul Bellow, loosely based on the life of Allan Bloom, teacher and author of The Closing of the American Mind. Remember that one? Mr Hundert's story has a hint of that.

[ginny]

Everybody should read Up The Down Staircase, the woman who wrote it, I think, just died. I thought when I read it years ago it was the most accurate (and hilarious) thing about teaching  I had ever read. I wonder how it would look now.

Back anon.

[ginny]

That's a good point Halcyon made about Mr. Hundert's life: no family, one friend who betrays him and apparently no need to reach out to the one person who keeps coming to see him.

Is he an introvert? This certainly seems like introverted behavior. Introverts are happy alone. Large crowds actually make them almost ill compared with people who are extroverts who actually (or so a psychologist told me at one of those Intructor meetings) get energy FROM a group. Imagine!

So we can see that the school, he says, is his life.

I thought Pat made two great points and a good question, too:

Mr. H is missing many of the things that make life rich and meaningful.  All he has is his love of history, and of teaching it.  I've known people like this.  With some of them it seems like a poverty of spirit.  With others it doesn't

How can you tell which is which, Pat? What are the symptoms of the poverty of spirit? What a good question  you asked here:


Which is Mr. Hundert?

I think that the history he taught and his life in teaching meant the world to him. I think he found his niche and loved it. How might we determine "the poverty of spirit?"


But I never  imagined that the life of teacher could be so turbulent

That's interesting. Why not? Is it his life that's so turbulent or something else? What is turbulent in Mr. Hundert's life, I wonder.

One interesting thing about...well, tomorrow's another day!

[BarbStAubrey]

Never did read the Closing of the American Mind but it is now on my TBR list - sounds like a winner, of course one man's opinion but what'a man, an icon to literature.

Halcyon and everyone, the August selection was announced in the Library and sprinkled in a few other discussions - it will be in preparation for our 20th year reading as a group - the first discussion "Snow Falling on Cedars" was March 1996. The title of the August discussion, that will start on August 10 and continue for two weeks is...

"Our Wild Days; Creating the Good Life on SeniorLearn".

Over the 14 days we will engage in a conversation of memories, with questions that prompt our opinions about reading as a group, and our thoughts about certain books. No book needs to be borrowed or purchased. We will be sharing our memories of together, reading books.

[bellamarie]

Jonathan, Yes, Mr. H., could be seen as devious in his narrating the story, PatH.,  his teaching was much more turbulent than my years of teaching computer classes in a private Catholic school for fifteen yrs., and still teaching Religion classes on Wed. nights, ready to begin in August.  Oh how the summer flies by....

Ginny, I may have to check out Up the Down Staircase.  Was that made into a movie?

Barb, "Our Wild Days" sounds like a delightful August discussion!  I came in June 2006, which seems so much longer with the group than actual.  Can't wait!

[Jonathan]

Ginny, this story really got to me. What an unhappy, disillusioned man at the end of a long, dedicated teaching life. Behold the academic Ozymandias. That's my life, I can hear him saying. Hiding behind his talk of honor and vengeance. Along the way...put down by the senator, betrayed by a friend, failure as a teacher, nothing, or less, to show for all his effort, feeling 'spurned' as he puts it...I like the guy, putting his all into it, and having time pass him by... It's been a moving experience hearing him tell about it.

What a great discussion!!! All in the company of geat minds, especially when they disagree.

[ginny]

failure as a teacher, nothing, or less, to show for all his effort

Do you think so, Jonathan?  I am wondering if all those years of success which he notes are erased by his current confession?  Remember his quote from the beginning?



 "The worth of a life is not determined by a single failure or a solitary success."---

I wonder what that single failure was? We hadn't talked about when he says "my first mistake..." and if we think that WAS his first mistake.

I wonder if he HAS been a failure, and if HE thinks so? What do you think?

He can't have been much of a failure if his former students wanted to see him?

Bellamarie, yes, I think it was made into a movie, it's very old. At the time it was hysterically funny it might not be now. The book is better than the movie.

[ginny]

What a great discussion!!! All in the company of great minds, especially when they disagree.

I agree, just like old times. I really get so much out of being able to talk about a book, particularly one like this, with the people assembled here, it adds so much to the experience. Thanks to you all!! (Still interested in the many points brought up here in the last few posts, too. I keep puzzling over Pat's statements and wanting to know how we can tell the poverty of spirit from its opposite. That was a very interesting post.)

What does poverty of spirit look like? If Mr. Hundert had poverty of spirit and his teaching were ALL he had in the world, then would he be adjusting as well as he is?

[BarbStAubrey]

I wonder if it is 'we' who decide what a poverty of spirit resembles - what behavior we see as the signs of a poverty of spirit - I am thinking we are unaware that we use our values to determine a poverty of spirit.

When Mr. H. is described as a man living a rather secluded almost isolated life - his community is limited to faculty and boys at a private school - and that school being named for St. Benedict he reminds me of the Cathusian monks who live in the French Alps, at the Grande Chartreuse, one of the world's most ascetic monasteries.

A German filmmaker was given permission to film their daily prayers, tasks, study, out door excursions using only space and light to tell the story with no musical score or voice
over or explanation of any part of the chronicle of spirituality practiced in a Great Silence. With no film crew or lighting Philip Gröning immersed himself for 6 months in the hush of the monastery creating a remarkable documentary described as "more meditative than documentary, a rare  transformative experience for all..." the film is called Into Great Silence.

When I watched this film the first time what caught me with awe was the hours upon hours these monks spent in their individual 'closets' reading ancient and obscure Church literature outloud.  Closets - their room with a closet bed (like we see in old Norway), a table and chair, kneeling bench, a small sliding door in the door to the long, Manueline style hallway, where by each monk receives meals and an outside door on the other side of the room that leads to a small private courtyard where some keep a cat and most have a tiny garden.

The rational for their reading material is that these thoughts and words need to be a part of the universe and to keep them alive someone had to devote themselves to reading these precious words from books written in the original language during the first few centuries after the birth of Christ.

My thought was I was witnessing a majestic act of a poetic like ethos however, I also saw by our worldly standards many would see as a waste of time and energy - that except for this film, no one would know this expression, this artistic and aesthetic endeavor took place in the high Alps of France much less see the benefit to mankind. 

Then it was an easy leap for me to see the many artists who never come to fame but who attempt to create beauty as their main life's work and then even those who use their time in their cells in prisons to bring some meaning to their lives.

And so I thought that if someone does not directly affect the well being of another or have some recognizable success based on societies values established for success we think they are lacking - lacking so much we question if their spirit is lacking  - I am wondering if there even is such a thing as a poverty of spirit - I can see the expression used to define someone without love and compassion in their heart but that would not describe our Mr. H.

Another trip down the lane of defining our own ethics that Ethan Canin provided to us with this story.

[Jonathan]

What a great post, Barb. What a beautiful run with the 'poverty of spirit' ball that Pat tossed up. Have to think about that. Naturally one thinks of the beatitude, 'blessed are the poor in spirit', but I don't think it was the want of jois de vivre kind of poverty, but went much deeper than that.

Meister Eckhart preached a sermon on the theme. I'll look it up. From what I remember I have the feeling that he would say the monks were wasting their time. After blessing them for their good intentions

[BarbStAubrey]

hmm yes, there appears to be two kinds of basic attitudes among Christians - at least that was how my recently deceased friend, Charlotte and I defined it - She was brought up - OH I cannot remember maybe Church of Christ - whatever it was it no longer exists since she described it as 6 groups combining their efforts into one back, I think before she became Catholic in about 1960 after the birth of her last child.

Anyhow, she was all about good works - each person was only as good as their good works, that the proper expression of being a Christian was assisting others. For me that was a strong statement that I had never heard - my association with God was based on not only seeing my soul as a house of God and realizing everything I did was a prayer so that on top of every school paper written we penned a small cross but showing adoration in music and prayer trumped all with contemplation and meditation in second place.

Neither of us could understand each other's view of how we expressed our Christianity - to the end we silently and simply shook our head in confusion but dearly we loved each other so we chose to set it aside as simply, who we were with no understanding.

In keeping with Charlotte's views she could not understand cloistered nuns or monks and had a difficult time accepting the prayer life on top of the work ethic of a nun, much less their vow of obedience. 

On top of my childhood background I had studied a goodly bit of Taoism and some Buddhism, both believing not only in the practice of contemplation but, in doing the simple thing that is in front of you and for the Taoists, it was common to go off into caves, later small groups and still later the 'houses', active today to contemplate for years and years including walking contemplation where all those living in the 'house' chant aloud while walking in a large circle.   

And finally, there is the view that like throwing a stone in a pond everything we say and do is creating a ripple in society and in the universe.  The sorta, "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" Which I understand today the question has become, "If a tree falls in the forest, and hits a mime, does anyone care?"

And so with those awarenesses and my learned childhood view of valuing the practice of St. Benedict following the Desert Fathers of Lectio Divina is probably why I was so taken with the Cathusian monks reading aloud the ancient texts, which is different than the value included in the Bible. Timothy 5:10 - Having testimony for her good works, if she have brought up children, if she have received to harbor, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have ministered to them that suffer tribulation, if she have diligently followed every good work.

[Jonathan]

Barb, it's very moving to read how you and your friend Charlotte compared notes over living the successful Christian/Catholic life. Contemplative vs Practical.

I'm shaking my head over the advice for women in Paul's letter to Timothy. He did a lot of mischief with that. But he was teaching. Like Mr Hundert. And what are the boys hearing from Mr Hundert? Get some character. Realize your character. Go out there and conquer the world. Like Shutruk-Nahhunte.

But back to the Christian life. I'm still puzzling over the strange spiritual distress of Mother Teresa, as described in Come Be My Light. She was constantly waiting for the voice she had once heard. God's silence was excruciating for her. Is that a third way to blessedness? She finally found peace in the suffering.

[BarbStAubrey]

Could be - however, St. John of the Cross says in the second part of the night (The Dark Night of the Soul) - (the operative word here is 'desire').

     IN order to arrive at having pleasure in everything,
Desire to have pleasure in nothing.
     In order to arrive at possessing everything.
Desire to possess nothing.
     In order to arrive at being everything,
Desire to know nothing.
     In order to arrive at that wherein thou hast no pleasure,
Thou must go by a way wherein thou has no pleasure.
     In order to arrive at that which thou knowest not,
Thou must go by a way where in thou knowest not.
     In order to arrive at that which thou possesest not,
Thou must go by a way that thou possessest not.
     In order to arrive at that which thou art not,
Thou must go through that which thou are not,
     When thy mind dwells upon anything,
Thou art ceasing to cast thyself upon the All.
     For, in order to pass from all to the All.
Thou hast to deny thyself wholly in all.
     And, when thou comest to possess it wholly,
Thou must posses it without desiring anything.
     For, if thou wilt have anything in having all,
Thou has not treasure purely in God.

Where as the Tao Te Ching says in chapter 37,

1.The Tao always detaches from actions (wu-wei), so there is nothing it cannot achieve.
2.Transformed, yet the desire rises,
3.I would use the nameless Wood Log to calm it down
4.Using the nameless Wood Log, there should be no desire.
5.No desire leads to tranquility.
6.The world will stabilize itself.   

Meaning to detach from actions and act what is necessary, but do not expect any reward, do not interfere with the natural process and do not possess the results after acting.

Imagining the world is like a giant tree, and everyone of us is a leaf on the tree. Unattended a leaf sends nutrition to the whole tree, but most of us forget how to generate the correct nutrients.

Transformed, yet the desire rises means that once we help transform others, our ego is likely to rise therefore, we call on the Tao mind, the Wood Log, our true selves, free from all worldly temptation and desire, to calm the heart.

And Buddha taught that some of us will not continue our path to Nirvana, the highest most fulfilled awakened mind, and will choose to stay as a bodhisattva. Knowing about the liberated being, we hold to the idea that every living being during their lifespan should reach Nirvana and they cannot imagine it for themselves without reaching back to grab the hand of those who struggle.

My take on Mother Theresa is - she was not perfect - she had deep questions, she desired more, however, she did not allow this to stop her work of grabbing the hand of the many by administering to their body. Looking into the bio of most Saints, none of them are perfect - they all deal with a human flaw and for many the way they dealt with their flaw is the lesson in addition to the example of a life well lived that is also the message. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh  yes,  I see no difference between Mr. Hundert's message of conquer the world and Timothy's message, except 2000 years - For many, not just women, 2000 years ago their world was within the walls of their house that most often was also a *man's shop. Yep, the man's shop when we are talking 2000 years ago.

And on top, if old Tim was talking to the wealthy or teaching the wealthy, as is Mr. H. I bet it would be to go beyond their house and community where as, this message appears to be saying the poorest of us in worldly opportunity and possessions can still make a difference with our actions.

[bellamarie]

Barb,

this message appears to be saying the poorest of us in worldly opportunity and possessions can still make a difference with our actions.

Interesting how this flows right into our priest's Homily today.  We all have something to give even if it is of our talents, be it to listen to someone in distress, visit the lonely, etc., I suppose the Beatitudes are the example of not only being a good Christian, but can be character building.

[ginny]

We do have a lot of unanswered questions here, don't we?


So could we say that Mr. Hundert has made a difference? And if so, is it for good or for bad?

[Jonathan]

'So could we say that Mr. Hundert has made a difference?'

A wonderful question, Ginny. It goes right to the heart of the story. And in Mr Hundert's own words:

'It was with a sense of failure, then, finally, that I handed him his diploma in the spring of 1949, on an erected stage at the north end of the great field, on which he came forward, met my disapproving gaze with his own flat one, and trundled off to sit among his friends.'

Mr Hundert has become a memorable figure for me. I find his story fascinating. His disappointment in discovering that 'character' was in such short supply and missing it in himself. He found a wasteland of sorts, didn't he?

I've found it. I knew I had something of Saint Benedict in the house. The small Image Book edition by Abbot Justin McCann. Priced at 85 cents. I can't remember ever reading it. Was Saint Benedict proud, do you think, that one of his 'boys' went on to become the chairman of EastAmerica Steel, the second-largest corporation in America, as Sedgewick did? And then denied the venerable institution. Can we even begin to imagine Mr Hundert's disappointment?

[bellamarie]

Jonathan, good find....   " met my disapproving gaze with his own flat one,"

I find it sad Mr.H., on the first day Sedgewick walks into his classroom, to his graduation day, Mr. H., did not find a way to get beyond this obsession.  Then decades later he can't resist the re enactment challenge. 

Ginny, I think some students throughout his tenure Mr. H., made an impact on some students, but as for Sedgewick, I think not. 

Like my principal told me when I first began teaching and was concerned I was not getting through to my students, "If you touch one, you will have accomplished something."  Years later, I realized I touched many! 

[ginny]

Good points, all!!

And it's not just Sedgewick, as Mr. Hunderdt tells us early on, the worth of one life is not determined by one failure or success. There were others.

But he wants to make it right, wants another chance,  I think this is where the "foolish" came from, he was again made into a fool.  He wanted to make a difference, he was disappointed once, twice and three times.

But he did try. If you look at it that way, why should we measure his life by this one person?

[ginny]

I mean it's as much folly for somebody to say oh he could have done this or that, or he shouldn't have done this or that, as it was for him to do the wrong thing, but it's clear as a Bell, pardon the pun, that  Sedgewick was irredeemable.  So why is it his fault for trying? Yes, he made his own mistakes in trying. Was the defection of Charles Ellerby something he deserved?

A 13 year old is not a man in all societies,  but he's not a child either. His personality, his way of getting his way and dealing with the world,  is formed. Molded if you will. Sometimes people come along who are not amenable to a saint much less a normal human being like Mr. Hundert.

[BarbStAubrey]

My summation is that Mr. Hundert reaches down and gives a student an opportunity who would not otherwise have that opportunity - he believes he is doing this because he feels sorry for the student after observing the relationship between the student and his Father -

Regardless of the various thoughts we have on how Mr. H. came to this conclusion and what part his own fears and limitations had, that he was trying to vicariously adjust through Sedgewick, he gives the student an opportunity as many a teacher will reach into the class and give what on paper appears to be an undeserving student a chance.

In his mind's eye Mr. H. thought Sedgewick would leap at the chance and show his father what he was made of - he does not see 'like father like son' as a possible scenario since he did not admire the father he assumed his son did not admire or want the attention of his father other than to prove he was a top grade student.

Basic to human behavior, since we know the student's behavior was altered out of fear of sanction from his father he, like most folks when pushing toward a goal with the fear of not reaching it, or seeing anything less than perfect as failure, the possibility of failure becomes a very scary prospect. The worry about failure is added to the worry of doing something imperfectly.

Mr. H. imagined and hoped to see in Sedgewick a noble knight rising to the occasion and instead, Sedgewick navigated a way to accommodate his fears.

Neither Mr. Hundert's characteristics or Sedgewick's life circumstances altered that - the opportunity was given for what ever rational on the part of Mr. H. and the response to the opportunity elevated the fear of failure requiring an enormous perfection quota leaving the student to balance heroism in the face of his fear or, rather than acknowledge the fear instead to skirt around it using his wits and hope no one notices.

Looking at our own life I am guessing we have all faced the fear of ridicule or of displeasing someone who we would like to receive from them positive attention and positive strokes. And the idea of interpreting our own dislike for something and assuming others have the same aversion that if given the chance will say as much, can kick up in the pants - I've mistakenly done it showing property when a house in my mind was ugly and early in my career I learned the hard way that one of the couple liked the house and so I set up a wall leaving the other to decide if their loyalty was with me or their partner - So Mr. H. set up a wall between the student and his Dad and the student attempted to skirt his fear by ignoring it and choosing a secret tactic toward success and then Mr. H. drops him in the fire -

I can hear his thoughts - if you were going to do that to me why did you ever have me on stage or give me the opportunity that we both inwardly know was given to me since we both know I did not earn it. 

Mr. H. wants noble heroic action and preferably he believes anyone given an opportunity can achieve perfection which purges for him, Mr. H. that when he has the opportunity to face a scary parent or make friends or be emotionally available to others he uses all sorts of excuses to justify his own walk with fear where he avoids noble heroic action.

This scenario of fear and wanting success using the perfection as observed by others as the pathway to that success along with, another purging their inadequacy without even acknowledging their fear is played over and over again - with all sorts of other bits of life and intention muddying the water.

Wasn't it Halcyon that suggested Fear as a theme - and so the question becomes for each of us to decide what is worse - purging your own fears vicariously through another or secretly fudging to give an impression of perfection.
 

[bellamarie]

Ginny,   "Sedgewick was irredeemable"

I'm wondering by what or who's standards you use to make this qualification? 

I did not see Sedgewick irredeemable, nor did I see this scenario, 

Barb,  In his mind's eye Mr. H. thought Sedgewick would leap at the chance and show his father what he was made of - he does not see 'like father like son' as a possible scenario since he did not admire the father he assumed his son did not admire or want the attention of his father other than to prove he was a top grade student.

You have to assume these things, and judge Sedgewick by Mr. H.'s measuring stick to come to these conclusions, and as far as I am concerned Mr. H., did not even live up to his own measures.

I think we have played these scenarios out many times through this discussion, and for me I feel Sedgewick did admire his father, and his father did not do such a bad job in raising his son, after all he did become successful in life. 

Mr. H., does not seem to see Sedgewick worthy from the first day he walks into his classroom, to the announcement of his Senatorial run.  I did not so much as see "fear" as I saw a weak man in Mr. H., he chose to make St. Benedict's his life, he chose to be isolated, he chose to not have friends, he chose to not be married, chose to alter Sedgewick's grade which put the entire events into motion.  He was not fearful, he was trying to be in control of a young thirteen year old's life.  No matter what his reasons were, he had no right to judge, measure, decide, challenge, obsess over, or make this young boy his personal mission in life, to the point he could not let it go even decades later.

the worth of one life is not determined by one failure or success. There were others.

Yes, I imagine there were others, but this particular story was Mr. H., the narrator making it about this one boy. 

[BarbStAubrey]

I think it is to each his own on this one Bellamarie - I would not have put it past Ethan Canin to have planned it just that way in that we all bring to the story our various experiences and viewpoints so of course we all see different parables and bottom line, we each take from the Story our own message.

Did you see in today's news the tid bit about the 12 year old boy who asked the Mailman for any extra advertisements flyers - curious the Mailman asks and the loves and no books - Mailman suggests library but the boy had already been down that route - they live too far from the library and the family did not have the bus fair that would allow him to visit. And so the Mailman says he thinks he can help him fix his dilemma - so he posts on his Facebook page the story and the boy is at first thinking it was the wrong delivery but folks from as far away as Turkey and France and England as well as all over the US send him books that the boy in awe says he will read everyone and share them with his all friends in the project. The story indicated he had received over 50 books.

[bellamarie]

Barb,  I agree, we all take from this story what we see, that is why I wanted to show I see differently.  It's really been fun!

What a very touching story about the mailman, boy and books.  Social media can prove to be very positive.  I joined as a volunteer at a women's support center for pregnant women and counseling for those who have had abortions and are suffering from emotional, medical or mental effects afterwards, called Heartbeat of Ohio. I never even knew it existed in my city, until seeing it on Facebook.   

[bellamarie]

Found this on my Facebook wall yesterday from a former teacher who recently retired.  He and I graduated together, and will be attending our 45th class reunion on Aug. 8th.  He moved away from our small town, as did I, and became a teacher, so we have been sharing our experiences of teaching with each other on Facebook.

I saw this and thought of this story, and other teacher/student stories I have read.  I think Mr. H., felt he needed to work miracles with Sedgewick, whether he needed it or not.   

[ginny]

Barbara, that post 306 was beautiful, it really was.  We need to frame that.

Bellamarie,   

Ginny,   "Sedgewick was irredeemable"

I'm wondering by what or who's standards you use to make this qualification? 

Whose standards? Mine. My opinion. The same standards everybody else has used here to voice their opinions.  I don't mean spiritually. I'm not talking about his spiritual life, but his behavior.   He cheated once, twice and the third time. Throughout his life. And apparently a 4th which the tabloids caught.

To ME that shows that he's not had any growth toward honesty or honor. His moral compass is weak. So to me, nothing Mr. Hundert could have done could have changed his course. It was like Don Quixote tilling at windmills. His father set his course, sort of like the blackboard you posted here, and Mr. Hundert, just like my mother and the soap, would not have any effect. Yet he and a million other teachers keep trying.


the worth of one life is not determined by one failure or success.


So is this true or not? Why did he tell us this?

[PatH]

One could make the argument that no one is totally irredeemable, but by the time we meet him, Sedgewick Bell comes pretty darn close to it.  Look at the scene in which Bell admits he cheated on the exam:

"...What had happened was that instead of enforcing my own code of morals, I had allowed Sedgewick Bell to sweep me summarily into his.  I did not know at the time what an act of corruption I had committed, although what is especially chilling to me is that I believe that Sedgewick Bell, even at the age of thirteen, did.

He knew also, of course, that I would not pursue the matter...."

[Jonathan]

"He knew also, of course, that I would not pursue the matter...."
 
Why then, after forty years, does Mr Hundert feel he has to tell the world about it? If Sedgewick is irredeemablle, it makes Mr Hundert seem hopeless in ever finding peace within himself. He is obviously unhappy with the role he played in Sedgewick's education. What a shock it must have been, when he reads, thirty-seven years later, about his student's successful career, with further great prospects.

'He cheated once, twice and the third time. Throughout his life. And apparently a 4th which the tabloids caught.'

This story has been all about teacher and student. With the tabloids getting into it, Mr Hundert decides his information might help future historians. I wish the historians luck. This reader has had it.

Thanks for the wonderful discussion. Thanks for coming back in, Bellamarie. May all your memories of teaching be happy ones.

[Jonathan]

'Was the defection of Charles Ellerby something he deserved?'

Yes, Ellerby was as much a thorn in his side as Sedgewick. Mr Hundert couldn't take the competition as teacher or colleague. See the movie. It shows all the good sides to Mr Hundert.

The best discussion, ever, Ginny.

[ginny]

Good points, Pat and Jonathan. I'm not sure he deserved Charles Ellerby, does anybody ever deserve that type of treatment?

 I agree also on the movie, that one shows the positive side of Mr. Hundert and somehow makes it seem understandable. I must admit I held my breath at the end...you'll have to watch it and see what I mean.

If you DID watch it, now in the last two days would be a great time to talk about it, if you'd like to. Siskel and Ebert loved it.

Thank you, Jonathan, I am amazed what you all made of it and I have to say it was just what I hoped, really, but wasn't sure we could do it in two weeks. I shouldn't ever have doubted.

Many thanks to everyone who shared their thoughts with us!

[BarbStAubrey]

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Join us Monday August 10
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[bellamarie]

I'm trying really hard to understand how Sedgewick seems irredeemable at the age of 13 yrs old, and yet Mr. H., is the one who put the whole cheating into motion.  Sedgewick did NOT ask for his grades to be altered to earn a spot in the competition.  Mr. H. cheated first, and as many times as Sedgewick. 

How is Mr. H., at such a young age himself, suppose to be such a wise mentor? He only has a few years of teaching under his belt, and is just in his 20s. If anything, he acted with poor judgement, immature and without morals, and admits he got caught up and obsessed with Sedgewick.  So if you measure Sedgewick's behavior, you should in fact measure Mr. H., by the same standards.  Mr. H., himself states he allowed himself to get swept up, yet he blames Sedgewick for it even decades later as he tells the story.  He is retired, telling this story, and he still sounds like the immature person who judged Sedgewick the first day of class.  He says he did not know what an act of corruption he committed.....really?  This sounds so much like a child trying to excuse his bad behavior, and blaming someone else for it.

"...What had happened was that instead of enforcing my own code of morals, I had allowed Sedgewick Bell to sweep me summarily into his.  I did not know at the time what an act of corruption I had committed,

The problem I have with this story is as I said before, we have ONLY Mr. H.'s side of everything, because he is the narrator.  He says he allowed Sedgewick to sweep him into this, yet he is the one who began it in the first place.  Cheating is cheating by my standards, no matter what the circumstances are.  So they both had flaws, they both lacked good judgement, they both seem irredeemable to me, and they both were playing this cat and mouse game with each other, all the while corrupting their own character. 

I am curious like Jonathan, about Mr. H., using the tabloids as a means of Sedgewick's failure to become president, and who gave them the information, and what information was so damaging for it to prevent him from winning?  I find that an interesting ending.  Was that Mr. H.'s way of saying he got the last blow?   I can imagine his character in the movie, grinning as he said it, thinking, you ruined my life and so turnabout is fair play. I think Mr. H., ended up being a very lonely, sad man.

All in all, for me this was a very sad story, and from what I have read in the reviews of the movie they altered the movie to make Mr. Hundert more likeable and less culpable.   He was married in the movie, and baseball seemed to be a focus for him. 

Okay, I feel like we are all repeating ourselves for the upteenth time, so I will say good bye.  I am putting Mr. H., to rest.  I've erased the chalkboard, packed up my bookbag, have all my memories, clicking off the lights, locking the door, and leaving the building.........  As teachers often say when they retire,

"Next year is for the new teacher to worry about."

It's been fun!!  Off to the library to return my book, and find something a little more lighthearted for my summer reading.

[ginny]

Maybe because we never see the slightest sign of remorse in Sedgewick? He just keeps repeating his behavior?

[BarbStAubrey]

Bellamarie another side of this is it is according to how we see corruption - what was corrupted - I think you see Mr. H. a corrupting influence since he cheated and yet, how often we do a kindness for someone thinking they will have a leg up that on their own they cannot manage and so another way of looking at this is that Mr. Hundset's feelings and good works was corrupted by Sedgewick who not only used the opportunity to cheat but dragged Mr. H. into his drama of cheating because Mr. H. was doing a kindness - from what we read Mr. H. sincerely thought that Sedgewick's behavior was because of his fear of disapproval from his father and that being a monumental mountain to climb Mr. H. extended a hand at the expense of anther student -

Sometimes even Judges will extend a hand to a young criminal who they see as acting for the attention of a parent rather than one of the kids just acting out in either anger or to get the attention of his buddies. It turns out Mr. H. miscalculated and it appears Sedgewick was acting out for his buddies until he felt the threat of his father knowing his lack of progress - had he taken the opportunity handed to him by Mr. H. and not blatantly cheated for no one's redemption but his own we could compare the two to like minded cheating however Mr. H. was lending a hand and his feelings of good will was corrupted by Sedgewick.

The way Canin uses that sentence the corruption can be associated with either Sedgewick or Mr. H. and so if we are coming down hard on cheating then as the saying goes if one cheats than we all cheat or if you are told about one guy jumping off the Brooklyn Bridge do we all jump - bottom line it matters not who cheated first - this is not baseball - and just because you have cheated does not mean you are immune from the feeling of being taken advantage of and included as a cheater in the cheat column and in affect stumping on the good intention of benefiting another - Sedgewick did not attempt to benefit another as Mr. H. attempted to benefit Sedgewick.

I have certainly been on the receiving end of someone benefiting me including a Judge when as a very  young mom I had a ticket for running a stop sign that was dismissed - I was all of 23 with two babies and a very tight budget and my grandson was also given a huge benefit by a Judge when he was a senior in high school late for a Saturday morning study group and went barreling down that mountain at 95 miles an hour - he was polite to the policeman who was shocked to hear where he was gong and why he was speeding knowing that kind of speeding ticket would have been on his record affecting his ability to get into the college of his choice and so the policeman himself talked to the Judge -

So we do receive benefits that others would say we were cheating the law but I became a more careful driver long before there was such a thing as seat belts or car seats for young children and my grandson never drives over the speed limit and does not fudge even on his long distance drive from N.C. to visit me on his own. Where as Sedgewick took his benefit and did not act in keeping with the opportunity.

Not only that he played with the good intentions of Mr. H. - that is really the horror of his actions - age 13 or not... he has learned well and executes the manipulation of other's betraying their good intentions with a selfish act.