Ovid's Metamorphoses

[BarbStAubrey]

The Golden Age
Pietro Da Cortona (Barrettini)
(b. 1596, Cortona, d. 1669, Roma) 

(The Lombardo translation is highly recommended, but there are tons of them available online, free.   Here is a sampling, or please share with us another you've found which you like:)


---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088---Translated by  A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...

---http://classics.mit.edu         /Ovid/metam.html...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al


----    http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html----Translated by Brookes More

Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:

-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm

-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm

For Your Consideration:

Week Two: Gods and men learn to interact January 26--?

 First section: The Four Ages

  Bk I:89-112 The Golden Age
  Bk I:113-124 The Silver Age
  Bk I:125-150 The Bronze Age

1. Have you heard other versions of the Four Ages?  Where did Ovid get this story?

2. Why do you think the ages progress from better to worse instead of the other direction?

3. The  Golden Age sounds wonderful, doesn't it?  What would your idea of a "Golden Age" feature?

4. What is your favorite line from Ovid  about the Golden Age?

5. What was it that turned the Golden Age into the Silver Age?

6. What is "Classical Mythology?" Do you have time to watch less than 10 minutes of Dr. Roger Travis of UCONN explain what "The Rudy Thing" is,  so we can discuss it? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvt3EazHqXY

Discussion Leaders: PatH and ginny

Thank you, Barb.

[BarbStAubrey]

Ah but then bellamarie that is only one myth of man's place in the world - and no one myth has presidence over another -

Just as the Bible is packed with analogy, so too is Ovid's myth and to have thought other creation myths are 'less than' is really assuming a superiority that is dangerous. Realizing that kind of thinking exists is humiliating for those who learned the stories of Jesus calling the little children or the parable of the vineyard or that He fasted for 40 days only surrounded by the wild animals and the angels. These stories taught us to be at one rather than at odds with differences as are the stories in the Old testament. Jesus was born among the animals, according to many in a hillside cave that historically would be a typical stable, rather than in a safe secure home with attending females.

These parables all show we are one - no species is superior to the other and the concept of power is just from our Western Christian leaders starting with Constantine, who was a Roman - We in the US live on land cared for by others before the white man and tribal myths are full of being brothers and sisters with the wilderness and the animals that we live among, as do Celtic myths and Germanic myths.

Joseph Campbell books - especially "Hero With A Thousand Faces" and his book "The Power of Myth" are great to read or better yet, the PBS Joseph Campbell series can be downloaded from Amazon. Powerful and eyeopening. Joseph Campbell worked in comparative mythology and comparative religion. Campbell believed that religion, in this case Christianity, starts in myth and in the Christian faith it arrives  at the triune God revealed in the life, death, and physical resurrection of Jesus Christ.

It is so easy to follow the arrogance of our past and think that we are better than and are the natural species to  control to our liking whatever is in our way. This story that Ovid tells is alluding to that kind of superiority - and we know others who attempted to capture the power of a unified Europe under Rome to justify their superiority.

Ovid is not only a Roman but he is living and writing during the time of Augustus when Rome was in a new space metamorphosing from its fall and the death of the Caesars, a chaotic lawless time, into a city of pride and determination and yes, full of hubris. 

[ginny]

My goodness what wonderful thoughts in here, you all have outdone yourselves. Wonderful stuff. It has literally taken me an hour to write this, my Uverse has gone insane,and I'm afraid I'm going to have to give up until it calms down. Blinking like a house afire.

MarcusTullius: Did Ovid make up that part about man's creation? Or did he get it from somewhere? What is Ovid trying to do?  What is he trying to accomplish with that story?  It seems unique.

That's a good question: what is he trying to accomplish? People have debated that for 2000 years. Nobody even knows what it IS.

He got his creation ideas  from prior Greek thought from people like Plato,  Aristotle, the  Stoics, Leucippus and Democritus, Hesiod, Homer, Lucretius, Vergil and his atomistic cosmogony,   He took their elements (which have been exhaustively identified), see William S. Anderson's Ovid Books 1-5, he's pretty much the definitive commentary, but he took this or that element,  changed them,  and did his own thing in his own way.   So yes, it is unique and yes it's quite an artistic accomplishment, even down the the meter of the words. It's pretty amazing. I had  hoped tonight I could  put in a couple of the more spectacular things he did with meter because  I think they make a stunning point. I hope I can stay on long enough. 

And now we have Prometheus. Who is Prometheus? Why did he suddenly appear? Isn't he a little out of order here in the expected creation myths? He's an artist, a craftsman, he's creating man out of clay, he's another craftsman like Ovid. We will want to watch and see what happens to artists in this piece. But where did he come from?

Thank you all for putting in all those different translations, aren't they something?

In reading  Roxania's post about cultural truth values she said,     After the Civil Rights Movement and Viet Nam and Watergate and lots of other things, we no longer seem to share the same cultural truth values--there seem to be, if I may oversimplify, "red state" and "blue state" mores and mythologies.

 The minute I saw that I thought of one of our current myths espoused by Ted Cruz in the SC debate the other day: "New York Values."

When asked what they were, he smiled  and said he thought everybody in the room knows what they are.

I don't.   But I do know that voicing myths about one section of the country over another is divisive and ridiculous.

What are some more of our modern myths?

How about George Washington chopped down a cherry tree?  He didn't. The Mount Vernon website, Washington's Home, does a huge article on "The Cherry  Tree Myth."

How about  George Washington (hate to pick on him a devotee of the Roman Cincinnatus, but it's not his fault that we need to make myths about our heroes): threw a coin across the ...what..Delaware?...... Potomac? Didn't happen.

It wasn't too long ago that several articles appeared about the myths we construct about history and historical figures, the Smithsonian did a big one by an historian on the myths we construct and believe which are not true. It's not "revisionist history," it never WAS in the first place.  What IS true about them, is we seem to need to construct them.  They do espouse a truth value: something we  believe in, something we can support.  The funny thing about them is that even when they are proved incorrect, we still struggle to make explanations for them or keep on believing them anyway. We need them more than they need us.

And there are so MANY!

How about the myth of the celebrity? Why do we think somebody who makes his money pretending to be somebody else is better than we are, smarter, worth listening to? They have wonderful memories, I'll give them that. We enjoy them in film but ? We  seem to be creating an entire culture around celebrity. Everybody wants their 15 minutes no matter what they have to do for it.

It can be anything, it doesn't have to be a written story. Marie Antonette did not say "let them eat cake."

Barbara mentions Joseph Campbell and his Hero with a Thousand Faces. When George Lucas read that, the idea was so unique to him, he created Star Wars.

Patton and his "universal soldier." The myth that some parts of the country are smarter or less smart than others. It's virtually endless.

But it's important for what it says about us. And what we need as a value.  And all cultures have them.

[ginny]

Here's a nice quote from Anderson on  what Ovid is doing from his book:

" For Ovid (who in this respect inherited the ideas of Greek Poets from  Euripides' age and more particularly  from the Hellenistic era),  the myths were opportune stories that could be given contemporary relevance, by elaboration of the events leading up to the metamorphosis. The form into which the human being had been changed was the given part of the story, along with a few details about  the individual's early existence. By, so to speak, fleshing out the story, by exploring the emotions and psychological problems of the characters, by considering the situation in terms of Roman morality and social values, by inspecting the involvement of the gods, by weighing the reason  for metamorphosis and the feelings of that human spirit inside the changing and changed body, Ovid gave new form and meaning to the myth."

And that's  exactly what he said he would do.

[bellamarie]

BarbStAubrey,   

These parables all show we are one - no species is superior to the other and the concept of power is just from our Western Christian leaders starting with Constantine, who was a Roman.

"What does it mean that God gave humanity dominion over the animals?"
   
God has sovereign power over His creation and has delegated the authority to mankind to have dominion over the animals (Genesis 1:26). David reinforces this truth: “You made [mankind] rulers over the works of your hands; you put everything under their feet” (Psalm 8:6). Humanity was to “subdue” the earth (Genesis 1:28)—we were to hold a position of command over it; we were placed in a superior role and were to exercise control over the earth and its flora and fauna. Mankind was set up as the ruler of this world. All else was subjugated to him.

Man is to be the steward of the earth; he is to bring the material world and all of its varied elements into the service of God and the good of mankind. The command to “subdue” the earth is actually part of God’s blessing on mankind. Created in the image of God, Adam and Eve were to use the earth’s vast resources in the service of both God and themselves. It would only make sense for God to decree this, since only humans were created in God’s image.

When God gave humanity dominion over the animals, it was in order to care for, tend to, and use those animals to their fullest potential in a just manner. At the time that God gave mankind dominion over the animals, humans did not eat meat (Genesis 1:29). Eating meat did not begin until after the Flood (Genesis 9:1–3), and it was at that time that animals started to fear humans. However, although God changed the way we interact with animals, in that they are now “meat,” we still bear a responsibility to treat animals humanely. Human “rule” over animals does not mean we have the right to mistreat or misuse those animals.

We must fulfill our duty to manage the earth wisely until that time when the wolf shall lie down with the lamb in the kingdom of Christ (Isaiah 11:6).

http://www.gotquestions.org/dominion-over-animals.html

sub·due
səbˈd(y)o͞o/Submit
verb
overcome, quieten, or bring under control

So, yes I stand by my theory that Ovid through the inspiration of the Bible, and the Bible, both are showing, man was to bring order, and protection to animals, nature and the earth.

Ginny, 

MarcusTullius: Did Ovid make up that part about man's creation? Or did he get it from somewhere? What is Ovid trying to do?  What is he trying to accomplish with that story?  It seems unique.

That's a good question: what is he trying to accomplish? People have debated that for 2000 years. Nobody even knows what it IS.

What we as individuals will take from this, is that we all come from different belief systems depending on our upbringing, faith, and personal experiences, and yes what we have read to influence us, yet we live in a world that has rules, laws, and a constitution to bring some kind of fairness and order for all to exist.  I see Ovid is trying to bring this about in this poem.  We are not the first and won't be the last to debate what "it" is, but as Ginny pointed out, it has been going on for 2000 years, and still nothing is concrete.  There is NO concrete answer, and I don't believe there is meant to be, because my belief system and faith leads me to conclude, it's as I have been taught, only God has all the answers.  Many scholars, have thought to have the answers, yet then others will come along and disprove their theories, just as we will do here.  But oh how fun and interesting it is to discuss "it."   

[bellamarie]

Roxania,

After the Civil Rights Movement and Viet Nam and Watergate and lots of other things, we no longer seem to share the same cultural truth values--there seem to be, if I may oversimplify, "red state" and "blue state" mores and mythologies.

I so agree with this, and does it not seem that the people all over the world are in a confused, chaotic state today? 

They are looking for order, they are looking for leaders to abide by the law, rules and constitution that has given them something solid to live by.  When there is no order, you have chaos.  I hear on a daily basis people say, God is being taken out of the equation and that is why we are in the state we are in.

Ginny, you mention the myth of celebrities today.  Celebrities seem to be in more control, and their lack of values and morals, and glorifying violence in their movies, have brought about a power, and yet a lessening of order.  We look for false idols to worship in making celebrities, athletes, musicians, etc., our role models.  We have become a nation lost, and as chaotic as Ovid's poem.  He began writing this poem around 2 A.D. and yet he says, "may the song I sing be seamless as its way weaves from the world's beginning to our day."

Talk about unique, I think Ovid had a master plan, I think he knew that this would be a continuous cycle, order and chaos, sin and redemption.  Makes me wonder if the breath of the Holy Spirit was breathed inside him, giving him this foresight, making him a bit prophetic, a bit like Isaiah in the Old Testament.  Although, I am sure Ovid would have preferred being compared to someone more like Virgil. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Please remember - Rome had conquered the Jews, destroyed their Temples, kept soldiers in their towns, enslaved and came down hard on the Jews from 63BC to 130 something AD so that no one in Rome would risk studying the Torah Bibles and copying from them. A poet at the time would not risk the displeasure of the Roman Ruler by acknowledging the writings of a conquered people whose beliefs were ignored in Rome in favor of their own gods.

The better research finding the back story for Ovid's creation myth would be as Ginny suggested, in the writings of Greeks and Romans who lived before or even during Ovid's lifetime. We may see the similarities to the writings in Genesis however, at the time even if Ovid was familiar with Genesis, very doubtful, he would not risk banishment by Augustus using the premise.

As to a translation of the Bible saying it was OK for man to feel superior to animals and nature versus, the many examples in the Bible and the life of Jesus that show animals and nature to be on the same level as man is obviously a personal belief in or not a hubris relationship with nature.

Now off to find my Joseph Campbell books and see what he has to say about myth - aha here is a link to a nice short conversation he had about this very subject with Bill Moyers - https://vimeo.com/62378811

[PatH]

That's an interesting clip, Barb.  did you notice his summing up sentence?

"Myths are clues to the spiritual potentiality of the human life."

[PatH]

So mankind has been created; what happens to him next?  Let's talk about the four ages of man:

The Golden Age  lines 89-112
The Silver Age lines 113-124
The Bronze Age lines 125-150

(The Iron Age is lumped in with the bronze.)

We can still finish up any important issues here too.

[bellamarie]

BarbStAubrey, 

We may see the similarities to the writings in Genesis however, at the time even if Ovid was familiar with Genesis, very doubtful, he would not risk banishment by Augustus using the premise.

Interesting point you make, because that is indeed exactly what did happen to Ovid, he was banished in AD 8 from Rome to Tomis (now Constanţa, Romania) by decree of the emperor Augustus, where he died in AD 17 or 18.

Moral Argument

Ovid specifically mentions two reasons for offending Augustus:

       Perdiderint cum me duo crimina, carmen et error,

            alterius facti culpa silenda mihi:

       nam non sum tanti, renovem ut tua vulnera, Caesar, (Tr.2.207-209)



       Though two crimes, a poem and a blunder have brought me ruin,

       of my fault in the one I must keep silent,

       for my worth is not such that I may reopen your wounds, Caesar,

By Ovid’s own admission there is more to his exile than the carmen; there is also the error. Many scholars have argued that this is an example of hendiadys, yet Ovid distinguishes between the reason he can talk about and the one he cannot, so hendiadys can be ruled out. Whatever was the prime cause for exile, it was a convenient time for Augustus to remove Ovid from a Rome troubled by political unrest.

http://web.colby.edu/ovid-censorship/exile/rome-sick-ovids-exile/

Shortly after the publication of these two poems, Ovid found himself in great peril. In A.D. 8, Augustus exiled Ovid and banned his books from the libraries of Rome. The reason for Ovid’s exile is not entirely clear, but one can surmise that Augustus took offense at Ovid’s lecherous poetry. Poems on the art of seduction would have hardly pleased Augustus, who sought to institute moral reform. Moreover, Augustus must have been especially incensed when he exiled his own daughter, Julia, for adultery.

However, despite all his pleas to Augustus and later to Tiberius, he would never see Rome again. Ovid died in A.D. 16 or 17.

http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/metamorphoses/context.html

Excited to move on to the four ages of man!


 



   

[howshap]

Don't the translations indicate that Ovid was not taking a position on who created man?   He was saying that man was created  either by "the Master Artisan"or by Prometheus fooling around with his chemistry set (mixing Earth still bearing some seeds of Sky with river water).  Either/or leaves the choice to the reader.  The Group's wonderful exchanges so far on man's creation in the Metamorphoses prove  that the choice is informed by the reader's (or the listener's) predisposition.  That must have been as true in Ovid's day as it is in ours.  Knowing the desire of Augustus to reestablish the old Roman religion, it would have undermined his work for him to make the choice, for The Metamorphoses are about the interaction of the Olympians and mankind, however and by whomever created.     

[bellamarie]

Yes, hoswshap, the translations, and there are many, leaves it up the the reader to determine what he or she takes from it.  As scholars and others have over the years, it still can be debated.  That is what makes it an excellent discussion.  There are no rights and wrongs, I don't think there can be any conclusive, concrete, finite, findings/endings here.  I agree, Ovid does not seem to have made up his own mind as to who the creator is.  That remains a mystery.  I suppose when you give an opinion or theory, you alone have some reason for it, and can support it in some way, or not. Sometimes a thought is just that...... a thought.   

[PatH]

Agreed, Howshap and Bellamarie; Ovid is definitely leaving it up to us.

I like "Prometheus fooling around with his chemistry set".

[bellamarie]

PatH., 

I like "Prometheus fooling around with his chemistry set".

OMG this totally made me laugh out loud!!!   Me too, it brought a little comedy & confusion into the poem.      

[BarbStAubrey]

Since scholars today still have no clue as to why Ovid was banished - only a phrase he wrote later...  carmen et error — "a poem and a mistake" and since his work or his possessions were not confiscated, nor was he stripped of his citizenship he believed that Augustus knew it was a mistake. No one knows what constituted the mistake and he continued to write living near the Black Sea.

And now Ovid writes of the transformation of society - I wonder if folks like Thomas More, Sir Francis Bacon, Henry Neville or even Margaret Cavendish with her "Blazing World" read Ovid and simply renamed their view of a Golden Age, Utopia? Ovid talks of a time period where as, the 16th century authors speak of a place and where 20th century Huxley goes right the heart of the matter starting with the Hatchery and making perfect the embryo.
.
Was this gauntlet laid down by Ovid that politics has run with ever since - to re-create a Golden Age -

In Letters from an American Farmer, J. Hector St. John de Crèvecoeur in 1782. A quote, “This great metamorphosis ... extinguishes all his European prejudices; 
he forgets that mechanism of subordination, that servility of disposition which poverty had taught him.” Fleeing from crowded and contentious domains ruled by exploitative aristocrats and kings, immigrants flocked to “this great American asylum,” where they felt liberated by the abundant and fertile land of a vast continent. At last, thousands of poor men could own their own farms instead of working for a landlord or employer. “The instant I enter on my own land, the bright idea of property, of exclusive right, of independence exalt my mind,”

Freedom and Safety to have agency over your own life seems to be a basic component of a Golden time - Ovid says, "There was no fear or punishment: there were no threatening words to be read, fixed in bronze, no crowd of suppliants fearing the judge’s face:" Where as, de Crèvecoeur replaces "Judge's face" with "exploitative aristocrats and kings"

We read of the settlers who after crossing the Great Plains and the Rocky mountains view a piece of land that appears idyllic that they call the Golden Valley - seems Ovid's poem expresses what became the Idyll for many. 

Sot of remembering learning when we read other Greek plays and poems, isn't Ovid's Golden Age acknowledging and coinciding with a time when the gods inhabited the earth before man?

[PatH]

Barb:

And now Ovid writes of the transformation of society - I wonder if folks like Thomas More, Sir Francis Bacon, Henry Neville or even Margaret Cavendish with her "Blazing World" read Ovid and simply renamed their view of a Golden Age, Utopia? Ovid talks of a time period where as, the 16th century authors speak of a place and where 20th century Huxley goes right the heart of the matter starting with the Hatchery and making perfect the embryo.

Seems likely that many of them did.  Interesting distinction--a time for Ovid, a place for the later writers.

[BarbStAubrey]

Interesting - there appears to be two Golden Ages - the one Ovid speaks to that is wrapped in myth and the other a historical time between 500BC and 300BC.

Wikipedia says, "The "Golden Age" denotes a period of primordial peace, harmony, stability, and prosperity. During this age peace and harmony prevailed, people did not have to work to feed themselves, for the earth provided food in abundance. They lived to a very old age with a youthful appearance, eventually dying peacefully, with spirits living on as "guardians". Plato in Cratylus, recounts the golden race of humans who came first. He clarifies that Hesiod did not mean literally made of gold, but good and noble.

There are analogous concepts in the religious and philosophical traditions of the South Asian subcontinent. For example, the Vedic or ancient Hindu culture saw history as cyclical, composed of yugas with alternating Dark and Golden Ages. The Kali yuga (Iron Age), Dwapara yuga (Bronze Age), Treta yuga (Silver Age) and Satya yuga (Golden Age) correspond to the four Greek ages. Similar beliefs occur in the ancient Middle East and throughout the ancient world, as well.

In classical Greek mythology the Golden Age was presided over by the leading Titan Cronus. In some version of the myth Astraea also ruled."

[PatH]

Astrea is around here too, as is Cronos, using his Roman name Saturn.

[PatH]

Some new questions are up for the Golden Age, to be followed soon by the other ages.  Let's go.

[ginny]

Oh great, we're going to the Golden  Age! Barbara is right, too, others wrote about this subject before Ovid did.

Hesiod wrote of the generations of humanity: gold, silver, bronze, heroic, and iron.  Later poets picked it up, especially Atratus in the 3rd century.  Vergil treated it in all 3 of his works. To quote Anderson" Essentially it embraces the idea that people degenerated from the ideal race that was created to enjoy a perfect world. "  The Romans took it over but called it ages..

I had never heard of the Four Ages until I started taking Latin. Did you all know about it? The Golden Age sounds wonderful, doesn't it? Is it similar to Utopia? (Obviously I know nothing of Thomas More, ) but it sounds like something on  Star Trek. I am sure the Enterprise went to something very like a Golden Age. What do you think of how it's described?

I wonder what it would take for us, 2000 years later to describe what we would think of as a perfect world? A Golden Age.  One without political phone calls at night? hahahaha

[ginny]

Beautifully said, Howard!

[Dana]

Good.  On to the golden age. 
(I don't think Ovid has much to do with god and christianity as we have been brought up to think of these concepts.) 

I think the golden age reaches back to that magical time in early childhood when our caretakers are all powerful and benevolent gods to us and our needs are met effortlessly ...if we have "average expectable parents" of-course....never to be repeated again, but always there, at the back of our minds, or under the surface in our unconscious, perfect and gone forever....till we reach heaven at the other end?....another golden age?

[PatH]

Right on, Dana, I agree with all you said.  Could you imagine living in the Golden Age as an adult?  Could it really work?

[marcustullius]

The golden age seems like a world without mankind, without the things man do and make.  It had no laws, no punishment, no threatening words written, no fear of being judged by other men, no ditches, no felling of trees, no war trumpets, no swords, no helmets, no soldiers, no farming.  It was an age without the mark of man.  Or maybe men were angels.

It seems funny, or counterintuitive.  The golden age was an age without laws and without punishment.  Apparently, there was no need for it.  Peace and harmony were everywhere.

In the iron age, though, they had laws and all kinds of punishments.  Yet, the world was in a bad state.  In this age, every form of crime broke out.  There was cheating, treachery, deceit, viciousness and criminal cravings.  Man had put his mark on the land.

[marcustullius]

Reading the four ages, I am reminded of this quote from the Federalist No. 51, by James Madison:

But what is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary.

Could Ovid have been thinking the same thing?

[BarbStAubrey]

hmm sounds almost like Ovid's gods are Madison's angles.

Dana for those who did not experience an ideal childhood, I think even as children they imagine a golden age type existence - seems to me Daddy Warbucks was Little Orphan Annie's key to her imagined Golden age.

[Frybabe]

Trying to catch up on all the posts. One quick comment on Barb's post,

They lived to a very old age with a youthful appearance, eventually dying peacefully, with spirits living on as "guardians".

With tecnological and medical advances, haven't we been trying to get back to that? Not sure about the guardians bit, but maybe the future of brain/computer interface, robotics and cloning could count. I'm a big SciFi fan. 

[PatH]

marcustullius:

Could Ovid have been thinking the same thing?

Seems likely.  The men must have been angelic, since they had no laws.

It's a good thing they didn't need governing, when you remember which god was in charge at the time.

[Mkaren557]

Why does the Golden Age end?  It seems that it is no fault of man; it is rebellion among the gods. Yet. Saturn's overthrow and the take over by Jupiter seems to begin man's downward spiral toward the Iron Age which will ultimately lead to the near destruction of mankind.  Hmmm.  What is Ovid saying here?  In my 21st century mind, I scream "that is not fair." Is this modern me, or is Ovid suggesting the same thing? 

[bellamarie]

The Golden Age reminds me of the Garden of Eden before sin.  I especially like the very first sentence:

That first age was an age of gold: no law
and no compulsion then were needed; all
kept faith; the righteous way was freely willed,
There were no penalties that might instill
dark fears, no menaces inscribed upon bronze tablets; trembling crowds did not implore
the clemency of judges; but, secure,
men lived without defenders.

This verse just sounds so serene, and perfect, people living in unity.  No menaces inscribed upon bronze tablets, sounds like a time where the Ten Commandments were not needed.  This verse also makes me think of a baby inside a mother's womb, before it enters the world of sin and strife.  Sort of like the gestational stage of life.  Angelic indeed.

[PatH]

Good question, Mkaren.  Everybody, what IS Ovid suggesting?

Saturn seems like a surprising god to be in charge of peace and goodness.  He's the one who gained power by castrating his father, and kept it by eating his children when they were born. Finally his wife got fed up with this and hid the next child (Jupiter), giving Saturn a rock to eat instead.  Jupiter released his siblings, unharmed by digestion, and overthrew his father.

Nice family.

[PatH]

Bellamarie, could you imagine yourself living in the Golden Age?

Come to think of it, maybe that's why the Golden Age didn't last; it's the protected ideal of the unborn child, which doesn't last.

[marcustullius]

Touching on Ginny's comment about the change of races to ages, it seems that whether we use the word 'race' or 'age', we still are referring to mankind.  Maybe if we refer to the four races, we refer specifically to inherent qualities of mankind.  If we say the four races, we mean the four different kinds of men.  If we use ages, it seems less focused on man, and includes not only the man but the environment that he creates around him.  So ages may seem like a broader description.  We still use it in science.  We refer to the stone age, the bronze age, the iron age, etc.  Today we have the information age, the computer age, and so on.  They seem to describe more the environments or the tools that man created.

On the question of what Ovid was suggesting by the inclusion of the ages in the work, could it be that he felt contemporary man was hopelessly corrupt?  Ovid may have been calling attention to his fellow man to look at himself critically.  Virgil and the elites of Roman society may pretend that Romans were virtuous and good, but in reality, it was the opposite.  Outside of elite circles, life was not pretty.  It could have been a cloaked criticism of the current state of affairs, without bringing the wrath of Augustus on his head.

[Mkaren557]

I was actually thinking that I would not have liked living in the Golden Age.  Not that strife, war, and hard work are always pleasurable, but having little to do, perfect weather, constant peace sound, forgive me, boring.  Maybe this is because I have always been in an imperfect world.  I once asked Sister Josephine, my religion teacher, if heaven was as boring as it sounded.  She didn't love the question by answering that in the presence of God I would be totally satisfied.

[Roxania]

At first reading, the Golden Age sounded to me like an agrarian, Eden-like dream.  In a Roman history class I took several years ago, the prof made the point that Romans considered the agrarian lifestyle to be the highest ideal.  Cincinnatus renounces the trappings of power to return to the land, and making a living via business was somehow suspect--the assumption was that you lived by ripping off your fellow citizens.  So in that sense, this passage enshrines a shared cultural value--the idea that a life close to the land and its bounty was an ideal.

But on the other hand, if any of us actually had to live in the Golden Age, I suspect that we'd find it infantilizing and unbearably boring.  Mankind doesn't have to worry its collective little heads about a thing.  All would be provided--we wouldn't  have to think about anything, invent better ways to do things, or have the opportunity to grow or to test ourselves.  There is no mention of learning of any kind. Is it really a good thing that "Mortal men knew no shores but their own"?

Worst of all, from my point of view, there doesn't seem to be any knitting or quilting!

Mkaren557, I just now saw your post, and I obviously agree.  Boredom is one thing.  I remember being told about how God was supposed to fix everything so that even if our nearest and dearest were in Hell, we would be so thrilled to be in heaven that we wouldn't even care.  I concluded early on that, if my family were in hell and I didn't care, whoever that was sitting in heaven would not really be me, but some kind of horrible android duplicate. Why, yes, I have issues with religion--why do you ask?

[bellamarie]

PatH., 

Bellamarie, could you imagine yourself living in the Golden Age?

Come to think of it, maybe that's why the Golden Age didn't last; it's the protected ideal of the unborn child, which doesn't last.

I'm kind of thinking that Golden Age life could be considered Heaven, so yes, I could imagine myself there one day.  According to the teaching and faith, there will be everlasting life in Heaven.  But here on earth, NO, it could not last forever, it was surely not God's intent, or why else would Christians be trying to live our lives in order to one day enter Heaven?  I don't think it was intended to last forever because man was not made to perfection, rather with sin, and with sin comes strife. 

marcustullis, I love your entire thought process in your post!  Although you intimate that Ovid may have been trying to fool Augustus with this statement:  "It could have been a cloaked criticism of the current state of affairs, without bringing the wrath of Augustus on his head."  As we learned, he did not get away with it, if that was possibly his intent.  Augustus exiled him from Rome and banned all his books from the libraries.  As much as Ovid wanted to return to Rome, he was never allowed back in.  Sort of sad I think.

MKaren,   

I once asked Sister Josephine, my religion teacher, if heaven was as boring as it sounded.  She didn't love the question by answering that in the presence of God I would be totally satisfied.

I concluded early on that, if my family were in hell and I didn't care, whoever that was sitting in heaven would not really be me, but some kind of horrible android duplicate. Why, yes, I have issues with religion--why do you ask?

After living in this world and all the pain, war, and division..... I would welcome a place more like Heaven. I could never imagine my family ever being in Hell.  Religion is a personal belief and everyone is entitled to their own. I like how Sister Josephine answered your question.       hee hee

[PatH]

Well said, all.  The different possible reactions well expressed.

[chase31]

Speaking for myself, I certainly believe that the ideal (Golden Age) lifestyle would be agrarian.  As a young boy I used to spend all the time I could on my Great Grandparents dairy farm in Pa.  I also loved the times I spent on my Great Uncle and Aunt's farm in South Ga.  I remember those vacations as being absolutely idyllic.
The thing I always remember the most of my relatives that were farmers both in the north and south was their calm.  They never seemed to get angry.  But, perhaps those are just chosen memories.
Could the end of the Golden Age the the Gotterdammerung?  The Gods and/or other inhabitants leaving the agrarian life for the strife of "civilization" in the new found cities?

[Mkaren557]

I took a class once on the pastoral in literature.  Going to the country to be restored and returning to the city seemed to be a reaction to too much civilization: railroads, factories, filth, etc., by-products of the Industrial Revolution.  Living in Maine I watched Bostonians, New Yorkers, looking for peace on the Maine Coast, even if it meant less excitement or activity other than walking beaches.  I agree that A Golden Age would be naturally involve agricultural activities.  So many people moved to Maine in the 1970s and bought land and farms.  Many soon discovered that the agrarian life is no Golden Age.  They either tried to change the country to be more like the city, e.g. cell towers, highways, entertainment centers, or returned to the city.

[BarbStAubrey]

All this bucolic wonder and no word of Orcus - there was a temple to Orcus on the Palatine Hill which says Orcus, god of the underworld, was part of the army of gods/angles fluttering about during this Golden Age.

Saving Grace for Ovid - it seems Orcus' stamping grounds was in rural areas; he had no official cult in the cities, which allowed for him to survive in the countryside long after the more prevalent gods were no longer worshiped.

The name came to be used for demons and other underworld monsters, particularly in Italian where orco refers to a kind of monster found in fairy-tales that feeds on human flesh.

He survived as a folk figure into the Middle Ages, and aspects of his worship were transmuted into the wild man festivals held in rural parts of Europe through modern times.

What do you think - Is the Burning Man Festival that draws over 70,000 to the Nevada desert reaching for a Golden Age (there is no reports of crime and creativity abounds) while celebrating the last vestiges of Orcus?

And yes, this white Dhanu durg (Indian Desert Fortress) was built for the festival.