Author Topic: Ovid's Metamorphoses  (Read 126908 times)

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #240 on: January 27, 2016, 03:35:52 PM »


The Age of Iron
Pietro Da Cortona (Barrettini)

(b. 1596, Cortona, d. 1669, Roma)


(The Lombardo translation is highly recommended, but there are tons of them available online, free.   Here is a sampling, or please share with us another you've found which you like:)


---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088---Translated by  A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...


---http://classics.mit.edu         /Ovid/metam.html...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al


----    http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html----Translated by Brookes More




Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm

-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm




For Your Consideration:

Week Two: Gods and men learn to interact January 26--?

 First section: The Four Ages

  Bk I:89-112 The Golden Age
  Bk I:113-124 The Silver Age
  Bk I:125-150 The Bronze Age

1. Have you heard other versions of the Four Ages?  Where did Ovid get this story?

2. Why do you think the ages progress from better to worse instead of the other direction?

3. The  Golden Age sounds wonderful, doesn't it?  What would your idea of a "Golden Age" feature?

4. What is your favorite line from Ovid  about the Golden Age?

5. What was it that turned the Golden Age into the Silver Age?

6. What is "Classical Mythology?" Do you have time to watch less than 10 minutes of Dr. Roger Travis of UCONN explain what "The Rudy Thing" is,  so we can discuss it? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvt3EazHqXY

Second Section: Giants and Lycaon
  Bk I:151-176 The giants
  Bk I:177-198 Jupiter threatens to destroy humankind
  Bk I: 199-243 Lycaon is turned into a wolf

1. What are the Giants? Why is this chapter there?  Does it accomplish anything?

2. We now meet the Pantheon of Gods for the first time. The imagery here is spectacular.  What line or lines particularly struck you in the writing  about their conference?

3. A direct reference is made to Augustus for the first time in this poem. Who is he being likened to? Why?

4. What would the Romans have seen as Lycaon’s real offense?


Discussion Leaders: PatH and ginny



PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #241 on: January 27, 2016, 03:36:31 PM »
Goodness.  I never heard of Orcus.  He sure looks ready to feed on human flesh.

chase31

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #242 on: January 27, 2016, 04:00:44 PM »
“If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need.”
 ― Marcus Tullius Cicero

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #243 on: January 27, 2016, 06:06:46 PM »
Chase - wonderful quote - for me I must add one more thing - I need music -

Given the music during Cicero's time I can see why it would not be as important - it was essentially one soprano voice in a simple melody based on a different scale system than our ears enjoy today and then the accompanying voices are like the drone sound of a bag pipe.

But my ears are drawn to the sounds that grew during the 10th century and after and so a garden and a library and either an instrument or even an old record player.

Interesting James Avery, a beloved Jewelry maker who works in silver and gold - seldom any jewels and whose studio is in what we call the Hill Country that on the eastern edge Austin is perched. He started making jewelry almost exclusively using christian symbols - his sons are now running the business and he has a new ring that is the four seasons made in silver


The four seasons and Cicero's advise for a garden seem to fit this ring don't they.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

marcustullius

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #244 on: January 27, 2016, 06:25:21 PM »
I don't know if anyone else has been thinking of this, but it just occurred to me.  It is the similarity between these two words: metamorphoses and metaphor.  Are they Greek derivatives or Latin?  Are they related to each other in both etymology and meaning?  It appears so.  Wasn't Ovid using metaphorical devices in this work?  When reading the Metamorphoses, I am always looking for metaphorical meanings to the stories and not focus too much on the literal.  Is it coincidental that the title informs us that the work is about transformations, and the method employed throughout is the use of metaphor, that is, transformation of one set of symbols onto another set of symbols, or transformations of the meanings?  Are there transformations occurring within transformations?  Are others reading it like that?

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #245 on: January 27, 2016, 06:34:45 PM »
Barb:
Quote
I need music.
Me too; I'd rather do without the garden than music, but I'd better have some source other than my own playing, or it would get pitiful pretty fast.

How much is known about Roman music?  I know that with the Greek, although they have some scores, they don't even know which way is up, which direction is the higher note.

That's a gorgeous ring.

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #246 on: January 27, 2016, 07:04:25 PM »
Wow, Marcus, no, that hadn't occurred to me, but it seems likely.  My expert advisor (an old Webster's Collegiate Dictionary) says that both words are of Greek origin.

"Are there transformations occurring within transformations?"  I'm sure there are.  Look at his first four lines, where he says he's writing about transformations, and then says that he himself--his beginnings (or his art or his life, depending on the translation) is/are a transformation.

I'm beginning to appreciate that Ovid was a pretty tricksy fellow, and I'm just hoping I can see some of what he's doing.

JoanK

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #247 on: January 27, 2016, 07:33:28 PM »
"I'm beginning to appreciate that Ovid was a pretty tricksy fellow, and I'm just hoping I can see some of what he's doing."

I feel that way too. I'm hoping GINNY can help us with some of his tricks.

Didn't some mention of these ages show up in Homer? I don't know if used in the same way.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #248 on: January 27, 2016, 08:14:04 PM »
hmm metamorphoses and metaphor - food for thought as we read - sure sound reasonable. We could look for any change in the metaphor in addition to the metaphor describing change.

In this from Kline - "...food that grew without cultivation, they collected mountain strawberries and the fruit of the strawberry tree, wild cherries, blackberries clinging to the tough brambles, and acorns fallen from Jupiter’s spreading oak-tree.

All the fruit and berries are collected and the berry clings to the tough brambles - where as, the acorn has fallen from an oak-tree that belongs to Jupiter - the fruit is not aligned with any god or goddess however the acorns are aligned with Jupiter, suggesting Jupiter is the focus, saying Jupiter and his oak-tree is the energy of the Golden Age. And as poetry goes there are devises to move the story along - this sure appears to be a devise telling us to be on the lookout for Jupiter and maybe even oak-trees - great... thanks Marcus...

Further - In Greek and Roman mythology, Dryads (also called Hamadryads) were nymphs who lived in trees and perished when their trees died or were cut down. To the Greeks, Romans, Celts, Slavs and Teutonic tribes the oak was foremost amongst venerated trees, and in each case associated with their supreme god, oak being sacred to Zeus, Jupiter, Dagda, Perun and Thor, respectively.

OK so Ovid is also saying Jupiter is the supreme god of the Golden Age.

Pat, All the western ancient music up till about the 9th century music used only one voice that carried the melody. After the 9th century music, called Plainchant used a second voice with the same melody as first voice, usually an octave higher - not till the 11th century do we have voices independent of each other but still, the drone sound made by several voices backing the melody.

During this entire time the scales are not the major and minor we know today - The scales were named by the Greeks - there are 7 and if you have a piano nearby you can create the sound- just play the scales with no black notes - use only the white keys - so if you start on A you do not accommodate the sharps or flats of an A major scale - just start on A and play to G on the white keys - that is the sound of a mixolydian mode - the sounds we often hear is the Dorian mode and the Aeolian mode that sounds like a natural minor scale. 

It takes a bit of counting to know where 'do' (sounds like 'doe') lies in this mixolydian mode (not scale but mode) - the folk music of the Appalachian Mountains was brought by settlers in the sixteenth and seventeenth century that was older traditional music in Europe built on modes and sung with one voice - The Dulcimer has 3 and in some cases 4 strings and only one carries the tune while the others are played as a drone. Do not know enough about the ancient harp to know if it only carried the melody one string plucked at a time or if there was any drone affect in addition to the one note.

I know the explanation sounds like a lot of nonsense if you are not familiar with how music is constructed - if you have any knowledge, this was a simple explanation attempting to describe the sounds.

Here is a young woman playing an Appalachian Dulcimer using the old technique with the drone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8nnPrGSUBs

During the time of the Greeks till at least the 7th or 8th century each mode was associated with a certain human experience and feeling. Ionian was for ecstasy, joy, and serenity; Dorian with vigilance, anticipation, and interest; Phrygian with terror, fear, and apprehension.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #249 on: January 27, 2016, 09:15:36 PM »
JoanK., 
Quote
Didn't some mention of these ages show up in Homer?

Mythology - The Five Ages of Man According to Hesiod

Even the ancient Greek poets, creating works a couple of thousand years ago, looked back longingly to simpler, more idyllic days.

One of our best examples of this in fact comes from such an ancient Greek poet. Hesiod composed a remarkable poem called the Works and Days. In this piece, Hesiod codified his version of the Ages of Man, which he divided into five distinct periods, each of which was populated by a specific race.


1.  The Golden Age
2.  The Silver Age
3.  The Bronze Age
4.  The Age of Heroes
5.  The Age of Iron

http://www.mythography.com/myth/mythology-five-ages-of-man-according-to-hesiod/

The first extant account of the successive ages of humanity comes from the Greek poet Hesiod's Works and Days (lines 109–201)

The Roman poet Ovid (1st century BC – 1st century AD) tells a similar myth of Four Ages in Book 1.89–150 of the Metamorphoses. His account is similar to Hesiod's with the exception that he omits the Heroic Age.

These mythological ages are sometimes associated with historical timelines. In the chronology of Saint Jerome the Golden Age lasts ca. 1710 to 1674 BC, the Silver Age 1674 to 1628 BC, the Bronze Age 1628 to 1472 BC, the Heroic Age 1460 to 1103 BC, while Hesiod's Iron Age was considered as still ongoing by Saint Jerome in the 4th century AD.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_Man
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PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #250 on: January 27, 2016, 09:15:38 PM »
Barb, Thanks for the music info.  I rather like the mixolydian mode.

I don't think the acorns mean that Jupiter is the focus, more likely Ovid wasn't bothering to think through anachronisms.

bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #251 on: January 27, 2016, 09:20:50 PM »
Chase,
Quote
“If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need.”
 ― Marcus Tullius Cicero

I like Cicero's quote, but I am going to need some kind of sustenance with the garden and books.  I love silence, so the sounds of nature will be my music.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #252 on: January 27, 2016, 09:21:48 PM »
Bellamarie, we may have set a record for simultaneous posting--2 seconds.

That's useful information; I wonder why Ovid left out the Age of Heroes.

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #253 on: January 27, 2016, 09:25:13 PM »
And we came close again.  I love silence too, but I also love music, but doled out when I can listen carefully and tease out what it's saying to me.

chase31

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #254 on: January 27, 2016, 11:08:01 PM »
Not to be argumentative, but has anyone ever went to a camp ground where people go to "commute with nature"?  It seems they all must have their "music".  Boom boxes, TV, and every other form of electronic gadget screaming and screeching.  You cannot ever hear a robin chirping, a honey bee buzzing or the wind rustling through the leaves.

Didn't Beethoven prove that silence can be the sweetest and most sublime music of all in the opening of his 5th symphony?

But I am a terrible curmudgeon, had I lived in the Golden Age, I would have been yelling at everyone to get off my lawn.

Jonathan

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #255 on: January 28, 2016, 12:00:04 AM »
'I wonder why Ovid left out the Age of Heroes.' The same question ran through my mind, Pat. Was it perhaps because he felt that ground had been thoroughly covered by Vergil and Homer? Or, perhaps there were no heroes for Ovid.

But what an amazing poem. Thanks to all your wonderful posts I see Ovid's work as another vast Pacific as seen by Cortez and his men on that 'peak in Darien', in the Keat's sonnet.

As for the 'Ages' that are treated, The Golden, The Silver, The Bronze, and The Iron, yes, perhaps we do personally experience them all in our lifetimes. Childhood certainly can be seen as golden. (Of such is the kingdom of Heaven. There is considerable Hebrew myth in the poem.) I have no doubt of being in the iron age at present myself...I see and feel a lot of rust. The rest of it doesn't bother me. And besides, Ovid has bigger fish to fry. Isn't The Metamorphoses intended to reflect Roman society?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #256 on: January 28, 2016, 01:49:27 AM »
Yes, I think he reflected Roman society if for no other reason than he was Roman and even if he traveled he brought with him his life experiences in Rome - He did know of but no word he visited Spain nor does it sound like he visited India, Arabia or even Sicily much less Egypt in North Africa - however, I have always thought any author that makes it on the list of Classic literature, so that for generations their work is read, they must have been able to write so that every generation can see an analogy or metaphor to their life therefore, we can relate to a metamorphose in history as readers can see change in their lifetime and a reader can contemplate their own personal metamorphoses.

Change could easily be my middle name as I bet we all have lived through great change. As to living a Golden Age - no clear memory - it makes sense I had my time swaddled in a cocooned life -

We justify what was our life experience and few of us would swap our lives for the life of another. I think I am too driven to grow and learn to have been happy in the Golden age as described by Ovid - I would even have problems settling into a Silver age.

But then, I wonder if I am fooling myself because I like order and am annoyed with anyone who walks away from their responsibilities. My curiosity is always active which breaks a regime of order. I also prefer a whole slew of characteristics that fit both the Golden and Silver age. Not anxious to ponder on all this so I will take it as a story that reaches the yearning nature within most of us. 

I wonder if the metamorphoses of Iron is rust or steel?   
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #257 on: January 28, 2016, 02:14:06 AM »
Chase it appears you and Ovid would together enjoy the chirping of birds in the Golden Age - although, he wrote a poem about a talking bird so I guess that means even he appreciated the company of sound.

The Parakeet is the oldest caged bird known in Europe, and was kept by ancient Romans. Ovid wrote an Elegy to a dead Parrot that from the description of the bird, green with a red bill, it is believed the bird was a Parakeet and not a Parrot.

Book II Elegy VI: The Death of Corinna’s Pet Parrot - Translated by A. S. Kline

Parrot, the mimic, the winged one from India’s Orient,
is dead – Go, birds, in a flock and follow him to the grave!

Go, pious feathered ones, beat your breasts with your wings
and mark your delicate cheeks with hard talons:
tear out your shaggy plumage, instead of hair, in mourning:
sound out your songs with long piping!

Philomela , mourning the crime of the Thracian tyrant,
the years of your mourning are complete:
divert your lament to the death of a rare bird –
Itys is a great but ancient reason for grief.

All who balance in flight in the flowing air,
and you, above others, his friend the turtle-dove, grieve!

All your lives you were in perfect concord,
and held firm in your faithfulness to the end.

What the youth from Phocis was to Orestes of Argos,
while she could be, Parrot, turtle-dove was to you.

What worth now your loyalty, your rare form and colour,
the clever way you altered the sound of your voice,
what joy in the pleasure given you by our mistress? –
Unhappy one, glory of birds, you’re certainly dead!

You could dim emeralds matched to your fragile feathers,
wearing a beak dyed scarlet spotted with saffron.

No bird on earth could better copy a voice –
or reply so well with words in a lisping tone!
You were snatched by Envy – you who never made war:
you were garrulous and a lover of gentle peace.

Behold, quails live fighting amongst themselves:
perhaps that’s why they frequently reach old age.

Your food was little, compared with your love of talking
you could never free your beak much for eating.

Nuts were his diet, and poppy-seed made him sleep,
and he drove away thirst with simple draughts of water.

Gluttonous vultures may live and kites, tracing spirals
in air, and jackdaws, informants of rain to come:
and the raven detested by armed Minerva lives too –
he whose strength can last out nine generations:
but that loquacious mimic of the human voice,
Parrot, the gift from the end of the earth, is dead!

The best are always taken first by greedy hands:
the worse make up a full span of years.

Thersites saw Protesilaus’s sad funeral,
and Hector was ashes while his brothers lived.

Why recall the pious prayers of my frightened girl for you –
prayers that a stormy south wind blew out to sea?

The seventh dawn came with nothing there beyond,
and Fate held an empty spool of thread for you.

Yet still the words from his listless beak astonished:
dying his tongue cried: ‘Corinna, farewell!’

A grove of dark holm oaks leafs beneath an Elysian slope,
the damp earth green with everlasting grass.

If you can believe it, they say there’s a place there
for pious birds, from which ominous ones are barred.

There innocuous swans browse far and wide
and the phoenix lives there, unique immortal bird:
There Juno’s peacock displays his tail-feathers,
and the dove lovingly bills and coos.

Parrot gaining a place among those trees
translates the pious birds in his own words.

A tumulus holds his bones – a tumulus fitting his size –
whose little stone carries lines appropriate for him:
‘His grave holds one who pleased his mistress:
his speech to me was cleverer than other birds’.


Another translation, by May
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/ovid/lboo/lboo28.htm
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Halcyon

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #258 on: January 28, 2016, 08:31:14 AM »
I've been pondering The Golden Age.  It seems to me the humans living in The Golden Age must have been very robotic, like the Stepford Wives.  Without fear and sadness how can one ever experience joy and happiness?  Perhaps the gods did create humans for their own amusement.

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #259 on: January 28, 2016, 09:13:11 AM »
Didn't Beethoven prove that silence can be the sweetest and most sublime music of all in the opening of his 5th symphony?
Yes, and how to handle that opening none-note is the despair of conductors.

I have no doubt of being in the iron age at present myself...I see and feel a lot of rust.
Ha ha.  But if we can believe the picture in the heading, rust will be the least of our problems.  We'll have to avoid getting assassinated.

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #260 on: January 28, 2016, 09:16:10 AM »
It's all going to get a lot worse for mankind before it gets better again.  Let's go quickly through silver, bronze and iron, so we can tackle the gods' displeasure.

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #261 on: January 28, 2016, 11:09:38 AM »
Barb: 
Quote
In Greek and Roman mythology, Dryads (also called Hamadryads) were nymphs who lived in trees and perished when their trees died or were cut down.
Maybe that's why Ovid makes such a big deal about cutting down trees to make into ships?

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #262 on: January 28, 2016, 11:46:10 AM »
So, Jupiter takes over, and changes things, and mankind starts to turn evil.  Why does man change? Is it the result of the harder life he now lives?  Or in spite of it?

And isn't it ironic that man didn't have gold in the Golden Age?  When he gets it, in the Iron Age, it's the source of a lot of evil.

Mkaren557

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #263 on: January 28, 2016, 12:05:01 PM »
When Jupiter takes over, he shortens spring creating ancient "climate change."  I would imagine that farming became harder and less dependable. Then you have a situation of some having more than others.  Enter greed and jealousy. 

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #264 on: January 28, 2016, 12:52:04 PM »
So, not just because life was harder, but because it was more uncertain.

chase31

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #265 on: January 28, 2016, 01:09:13 PM »
This "and man stopped crouching in crude caverns", from the silver age.

I find this fascinating.  Could Ovid have been aware of the Lascaux Cave paintings and understood they were from the very distant past?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #266 on: January 28, 2016, 01:13:16 PM »
My Opinion - all vices, aggressive behavior, the 'seven deadly sins', narcissism, control issues, etc. stem from how we handle uncertainty.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #267 on: January 28, 2016, 01:18:30 PM »
Would not have seen the connection before reading this book... Harry Sidebottom is starting a new series, Throne of Caesars and Book One out last week is entitled. Iron and Rust: Throne of the Caesars: Book 1
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #268 on: January 28, 2016, 01:33:26 PM »
Just chirping in  to say that these thoughts struck me as I read all of the fabulous thoughts here, especially:

"I'm beginning to appreciate that Ovid was a pretty tricksy fellow, and I'm just hoping I can see some of what he's doing."


I really love the way you all  together ARE seeing things in this poem. I am so impressed with you all. I am not sure I would have seen it myself.

I feel that way too. I'm hoping GINNY can help us with some of his tricks. I hope she can too but it might have to be Saturday hahhaa SWAMPED but you all are doing a fabulous job. Some of the stuff might not be interesting.


Are there transformations occurring within transformations?
  Yes, even in the meter and form and words he's using for the poem, even there.

'I wonder why Ovid left out the Age of Heroes.' The same question ran through my mind, Pat. Was it perhaps because he felt that ground had been thoroughly covered by Vergil and Homer? Or, perhaps there were no heroes for Ovid.

What an astute comment, love it.

Isn't The Metamorphoses intended to reflect Roman society?

Does it? Another very astute comment. If it does then how? Some people think this is a satire. What on earth IS it?

Here's what I did for the other night and never got to post. This MAY not be of any interest at all but it does address SOME of what you're saying:


If we could go back in a time  machine and go back to  11 B.C. or thereabouts, what would it be like?  You're an ancient Roman and you are so looking forward to the next book your favorite author writes, just like we do  today. You finally get your hands on it and you can't wait to open it.

Put yourself in their shoes. Here you are with your favorite writer in 2016...say John Grisham's newest one. You've heard so much about it. You open the pages  eagerly and he's written it in haiku!  Or he's written it in Jack and Jill went up the Hill rhyme.....What IS this? You are puzzled. You may want your money back. What is going ON?  You try to persevere but it seems crazy.

Now we know how the ancient Romans felt when reading the Metamorphoses for the first time. The Romans, when they were not listening to the poems being read, and could get a MS, read very slowly. They had to read slowly because there were no spaces between the words. All words were in caps. No punctuation. They read by moving their finger slowly across the line, they read out loud, sounding out each word, at about the speed of a 3rd grader which is amazing when you consider what they were reading.

So they noticed everything. The little things that we flash over, they lingered on.  They enjoyed the words unfolding. It's kind of like (to mix metaphors) the difference in looking at your back yard,  or getting down on your hands and knees and looking at the grass, or getting a magnifying glass and looking and finally looking through a microscope at the world within.

This next part may not interest many but I personally find it fascinating. Ovid  had been an elegiac poet. He wrote Elegiac distich or couplets. These appeared in rigid meter. You may not know much about meter but you have heard it. If you say Jack and Jill went up the hill  you can hear it. That's called a four foot line, the stresses Jack Jill up and Hill make it 4 feet.

Elegiac  poetry started with a dactylic hexameter line (6 feet)  followed by a pentameter line (5 feet).  Ovid started the Metamorphoses with  hexameter but instead of going to his normal pentameter he continues in Hexameter. What's going on? But look, has he misspelled words? What's going on with the words?

There's a word in the 2nd line: (nam vos mutastis et illa)(illas originally)
What is mutastis? There's no such word. It should be mutavistis, Perfect tense . It's normal to squeeze Latin verbs (this is called syncopated form) into compacted forms to fit meter, or to slide one slap into the next one (elision) but not the 2nd person plural.  Ovid's poem itself is showing metamorphoses taking place in its own beginnings. It's shape shifting before our eyes.

 Sure draws attention to that parenthetical bit, doesn't it?  There are those who think this parenthetical phrase starting with "nam" (for) indicates that Ovid here  before appealing to the gods, inserts himself, inserts a parenthetical explanation of why he addresses them,  they are working for his benefit,  and he's the focus, not them. He is the creator.  Just like DNix and Karen thought initially: hubris.

They have manifested their transforming power in the past over poetic beginnings, his own and those of other poets.

That little word illa at the end of the mutastis line has been argued over for 2000 years. For that length of time everybody has assumed illas which it was originally in the MS. (because  the ancient MS agreed tho some Medieval scholars tried to change it)  refers to formas. Now you note it's rare to see it in any text because  it's now been discovered that the pronoun illa (s) should refer to the word the parentheses interrupted, coeptis, rendering the meaning those beginnings also rather than those forms also.  Imagine something accepted for 2000 years transforming itself in our modern age. Ovid was right, he's having continuity through change.

OK so two hexameter  lines, is  it an Epic then?  Well there's no hero. Epics start with heroes, unless they are a special type which this does not fall into, and not with creation stories, but  with nouns which tell the principal topic or theme. Ovid starts with a preposition followed by an adjective, making us wait, tantalizing the reader, (who, you remember is reading very slowly).  The "gods" are invoked, another strange thing because they are nameless. So it's a new form just like he said and to us reading English translations it almost means nothing, we don't SEE anything original. But if you read the Latin you can see it. He'll have spondees for feet! Not dactylic hexameter. It's like suddenly hearing a big drum: boom boom boom.  He can have a row of them.  The Romans's heads would have been spinning but I bet they thrilled to it. It's new, it's different,  and exciting.

So is it a take on  Vergil's Aeneid, then, a non heroic Epic with a twist? If we knew that Ovid deliberately turned around Vergil's meter and did it backwards, would that tell us anything?  (There are people who actually have counted every foot in all 15 books). They have  found that Ovid preferred the dactyl while Vergil preferred the  spondee. In all 8 of Vergil's books he averages a ratio of 20 spondees to 12 dactyls.

Ovid shows a ratio of 20 dactyls to  12 spondees.  It's almost a stunning mirror reversal.  It cannot be by accident: dactylic hexameter is hard to do in Latin, it's more common to Greek verse.  It was done on purpose. And literally these types of things go on and on and ON all through the poem. Under the microscope it's an entirely new world.

But I think Latin is that way, anyway. These are just a couple of things I thought you might like to know so as to appreciate the mechanics more while YOU are already figuring it out for yourselves and very well too. It has a LOT of layers. I like the technical ones, so I thought I'd mention them for your interest.


bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #269 on: January 28, 2016, 01:59:35 PM »
I feel, life got more hectic for man because like Adam and Eve, they just could not resist temptation.  How often do we see life seeming in a perfect state, and it is not enough.  We want more, with that need and desire for more, we become selfish, greedy, we stop caring about others and instead begin gathering and harvesting for ourselves.  Man/woman is at his/her best when doing for others with nothing expected in return.  It calls to mind my lesson plan about the Beatitudes and works of Mercy, last evening with my third grade CCD children, 

Matthew 25:40  "And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, In as much as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”

Barb mentions the seven deadly sins, each of these sins are self inflicted, thinking only of oneself, and not what is for the greater good of man.  Again, man was created in the image of God, but not perfect.  We have been taught man was born with the original sin, so it is in our nature to sin.  More hard work, more strife and stress could be handled if man were willing to be less selfish and more willing to work with each other.

Ovid on the Iron age:

What bestowed its name upon the last age was hard iron.
And this, the worst of ages, suddenly
earth saw the flight of faith and modesty
and truth__and in their place came snares and fraud,
deceit and force and sacrilegious love
of gain.

And then.....

Not only did men ask of earth its wealth,
its harvest crops and foods that nourish us,
they also delved into the bowels of earth:
there they began to dig for what was hid
deep underground beside the shades of Styx:
the treasures that spur men to sacrilege.


Man has only himself to blame.  In this age of iron, man has indeed turned himself into hard iron.  Lost the ability to care for others, lost their faith and truth, as Ovid points out.  I see greed and power has taken over.

It remains the ruins of today as in Ovid's prologue so pointed.....  weaves from the world's beginning to our day.
I have to mention once again, I see Ovid as prophetic, he had insight as did Isaiah. 
 
Chase, I can not fail to comment again, how much I truly loved your Cicero quote, and many a days I spend in the Spring, Summer and Fall seasons lying in my hammock in my backyard, with book in hand, admiring my beautiful flower gardens, and swaying back and forth listening to the sounds of the birds who come to eat from our feeder.  Now that for me comes to mind Sir Thomas More's   'Libellus vere aureus, nec minus salutaris quam festivus, de optimo Reipublicae statu, deque nova Insula Utopia.

A quote from his book I especially like is: 

"The toleration of all other religious ideas is enshrined in a universal prayer all the Utopians recite.

“   ...but, if they are mistaken, and if there is either a better government, or a religion more acceptable to God, they implore His goodness to let them know it."

I think this is what was lacking in the ages following the Golden age.

Ginny,  We were posting at the same time....something I seem to do often.  I just have to say, thank you for your intelligent explanation, and I am still shaking my head in wonderment!   I did read some of this prior, and it then and still does leave me a bit confused, but I admire your knowledge and welcome it!!
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

marcustullius

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #270 on: January 28, 2016, 02:57:22 PM »
Time stood still during the golden age.  There was no metamorphoses occurring at all during the golden age.  The earth was free and untouched.  It was always springtime.

Not until the silver age and after that metamorphoses began.  The seasons appeared:

A Silver Age then followed,...
Jupiter shortened the previous springtime
and split each year into different seasons,
with winter, summer, changeable autumn,
and short-lived spring.

I agree with everything Jonathan said about why Ovid didn’t include the heroic ages in his work.  I don’t think Ovid had too much of a high regard for mankind, particularly after reading the iron age.

bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #271 on: January 28, 2016, 03:39:00 PM »
marcustullis,   
Quote
I don’t think Ovid had too much of a high regard for mankind, particularly after reading the iron age.

Interesting observation, but it does make me wonder if Ovid had the insight into man's human nature.

A Silver Age then followed,...
Jupiter shortened the previous springtime
and split each year into different seasons,
with winter, summer, changeable autumn,
and short-lived spring.


So, if it weren't for Jupiter, all would have remained in harmony.  Some never know when they have it so good.  Is this the trickster humor Ovid is throwing in?   :)  :P
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #272 on: January 28, 2016, 03:42:10 PM »
After reading your post Ginny the thought that popped in was - I wonder just how many Romans read the work of Ovid - there was no printing press so every book would be hand written - was there a cadre of folks handwriting many copies? - Later monks did that kind of work but during the time of Ovid??? And slaves would have to be taught so that does not seam feasible. And then what would a book look like? I'm thinking more in terms of roles of paper or parchment - Duh - here we go - a site for 7th graders ahum - http://fascinatinghistory.blogspot.com/2005/07/books-in-ancient-rome.html

Which gets to the choice of meter - thanks for the rundown - as I understand Greek poetry was sung and this choice of meter helped to remember the words - I just did a bit of research and learned that Roman poetry was no longer sung but it was still dependent on the oral tradition - what I did not know is that only after epic poems were no longer sung, it was the Roman poets who established the rules for hexameter so that the use of dactylic hexameter take on a particular Roman characteristic.

The use of Dactylic Hexameter facilitates both memory and delivery in the oral tradition and it became the usual meter for epic poems - Longfellow, in the nineteenth century wrote the epic Evangeline in dactylic hexameters. Another new bit I did not know - the Roman poets known for using Dactylic Hexameter are from the Silver Age   

I am imagining that folks go to some public place to hear the poems - I wonder just how many roles were made of a poem - do we know if any of the original roles are still with us or were they destroyed over time?
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #273 on: January 28, 2016, 03:55:39 PM »
Ginny, those facts about word tricks and meter are so cool.  Why am I unsurprised that Ovid is playing tricks inside tricks on us?

And it never would have occurred to me how hard it was just to read a book to yourself.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #274 on: January 28, 2016, 04:14:50 PM »
here from the Smithsonian site is the work they did to finally read the scrolls buried after Vesuvius...

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ancient-scrolls-blackened-vesuvius-are-readable-last-herculaneum-papyri-180953950/?no-ist
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #275 on: January 28, 2016, 04:23:55 PM »
oh ho - this is the imagination of English artist Sir Lawrence Alma-Tadema in 1885 of A Reading from Homer

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #276 on: January 29, 2016, 10:12:11 AM »
It's time to move on, and watch everything really go downhill.  I've added the next section to the heading, only on this page, and I'll get some questions up shortly.

I've put up the headings and line numbers from the Kline online version, since we all have that; unfortunately my two paperbacks divide things up two other ways, with different line numbers.  You want to go through the scene where Lycaon is turned into a wolf, and just 2-3 lines more, in which Jupiter says now he's really fed up.

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #277 on: January 29, 2016, 11:12:33 AM »
Wonderful! It's going to get exciting now!

On books and bookstores and libraries of the ancient world, we can hear from Ovid himself on the first Roman library for the public put up in 28  B.C.,   "All that the learned minds of ancient or of modern authors have produced lies there open for the readers to consult." (see below)

Barbara: I am imagining that folks go to some public place to hear the poems - I wonder just how many roles were made of a poem - do we know if any of the original roles are still with us or were they destroyed over time?

We actually do have a history of pitiful fragments (which are a miracle in themselves, considering their age) .  Supplies  of  papyrus were short, the books went to animal hides,  and the monks for instance wrote over the original pagan (and Christian) writings  when more "important" things to them came along. "Paper" was scarce.  Hides can be scraped and used again, that's what vellum is. I myself have a page from an illuminated manuscript and you can clearly see the "hide" side and the other.

When one text is scraped off and another put over it,  it's called a Palimpsest. Here is the larger writing of Cicero's De Republica, dating from the 4th century, while the smaller writing is from a selection of St. Augustine on the Psalms, dating from the 7th century….Notice that capital letters are beginning to start new thoughts, and  there is no attempt to leave spaces between words in sentences.  This has been photographed under ultraviolet and infrared light to see the two different scripts.



Of course we're all familiar with the famous ancient libraries, both private and public, such as the Library of Alexandria, in Egypt, which was burned in Julius Caesar's time. It was the "thing" to have a private collection or library  of books such as at the Villa of the Papyri, (supposedly owned by Julius Caesar's father in law) (and we remember Julius Caesar died in 44 B.C.)  buried in the eruption of Vesuvius, which I think Barbara  put a link to, which has 1,800 scrolls (or books, mostly Greek)  recovered to date (not counting the ones burned for firewood when they were thought to be lumps of coal). Julius Caesar wanted  to make a public Library but it was Augustus who carried it out in 28  B.C. (see below).

Here's a quote, the second of which features our own Ovid on the subject:  Aside from the public archives of official documents (such as those in the Tabularium), there were no public libraries in Rome before the first century BC. Julius Caesar intended to establish one, and even commissioned Varro to gather books for it, but was assassinated before his plan could be realized. In 39 BC, several collections, including those of Sulla and Varro, were consolidated by Asinius Pollio, who founded the first public library in Rome, thereby, says Pliny, making "works of genius the property of the public." Asinius also was the first to place bronze busts in the library "in honour of those whose immortal spirits speak to us," the only contemporary figure of which was Varro.

The real impetus for the public library, however, came from Augustus, who established the Bibliotheca Apollinis Palatini on the Palatine adjacent to the Temple of Apollo, both of which were dedicated in 28 BC. Ovid writes of it, "All that the learned minds of ancient or of modern authors have produced lies there open for the readers to consult." This was the first of many public libraries in ancient Rome. This  from Penelope: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/bibliotheca/bibliotheca.html

It was formerly thought that only about 15 percent of the total Roman population could read, and you have to consider what that population consisted OF, leaving literacy and power in the hands of a few wealthy families,  but those numbers are now in serious reversal. Obviously putting up a poster for an election in Pompeii would have been useless if nobody could read it,  and there are signs that all degrees of men and trades were literate also by graffiti in Pompeii and the mention of trades (we fish mongers support XXX."  Not much use to put up a library if nobody can read.  But the "home library" was a thing of great importance to the Romans, it marked one as an educated, refined man in a world of barbarians.  On the other hand the  great library of Pergamum was said to have contained over 200,000 volumes and this in the 1st century B.C.

And yes there were bookstores, too, as the empire progressed.  It's known that there were 3 copies of Ovid's Metamorphoses before his exile in 8 A.D. and these would have been copied over and over by slaves and disseminated, recited and maybe even hung up on sign posts. It's not like a Barnes and Noble, but it apparently worked.

And I do have a list of the extant pieces fragments and "books" of Ovid which I'll bring here  tomorrow. It's truly a miracle we have anything at all.

It's also fascinating to me that Julius Caesar wrote about the Britons and sailed to  Britain in Britain's Iron Age, (the real one). It's just incredible to me  that we can read things written during the Iron Age of the Western World.

 

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #278 on: January 29, 2016, 11:42:12 AM »
We're so used to universal literacy that it's easy to forget what a powerful tool the ability to read can be.  In the pre-Civil War South, slaves weren't allowed to learn to read, as a way of keeping them powerless.  But here in Rome, slaves can read and write, and I think often had positions of some responsibility and power.

Mkaren557

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #279 on: January 29, 2016, 12:17:35 PM »
I am curious about the Giants that pile up the mountains trying to overthrow Jupiter in the heavens.  Who are they?  Have we met them before? Does Mother Earth transform their bloody bodies into human form?  I am trying to figure hot how this fits in to Ovid's big picture. I am missing something.