Author Topic: Ovid's Metamorphoses  (Read 126910 times)

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #400 on: February 07, 2016, 04:26:33 PM »


Apollo and Daphne
by Artist
Gian Lorenzo Bernini (1622–25)
Galleria Borghese, Rome


(The Lombardo translation is highly recommended, but there are tons of them available online, free.   Here is a sampling, or please share with us another you've found which you like:)


---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088---Translated by  A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...


---http://classics.mit.edu         /Ovid/metam.html...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al


----    http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html----Translated by Brookes More




Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm

-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm




For Your Consideration:

“Week” Three: Tales of Gods and Humans, February 9--?

  First tale: Apollo and Daphne
   
   Bk I:438-472 Phoebus kills the Python and sees Daphne
   Bk I: 473-503 Phoebus pursues Daphne
   Bk I:504-524 Phoebus begs Daphne to yield to him
   Bk I:525-552 Daphne becomes the laurel bough
   Bk I:553-567 Phoebus honours Daphne

1. Why do you think Ovid starts the main theme of his poem with the  Daphne and Apollo story?  What is the theme of this story?

2. What is ironic about Apollo's pursuit of Daphne?

3. Why the contrast between the two archers?

4. Who won this contest? Who is the victor and who the vanquished?

5. An aetiological myth is one which explains how something came to be. Is Apollo and Daphne an aetiological myth? Why or why not?

6. What image in this short tale made the most impression on you?



Discussion Leaders: PatH and ginny

         
From what I read Jonathan the arrows from Apollo killing the python was a revenge attack - not so much because the snake represented evil but because the snake was the god who kept Apollo's mother from birthing him during the daytime hours and is buried under the temple to Apollo.

Looking at Virgil, earlier than Ovid, included snakes in the Aeneid - Virgil wrote of snakes and fire in the Aeneid that he explains for the Trojans, the Greeks are considered both snakes and fire symbols of deceit and destruction. 

And Horace includes the African Snake supplying the venom used by Cleopatra VII of Egypt, who died by self-inflicted snake-bite in 30 BC, rather than be brought to Rome to be led in Octavian's planned triumph.

"In vengeance we fled in such a way that we tasted nothing, as though Canidia, worse than African snakes, had breathed on those things".  African snakes were understood to be the fiercest of serpents, and even their breath was believed to be foul and poisonous.

OK Uncle she (me) cried - finally resorted to Cooper - 5 pages on the serpent - more than any other symbol - starts off by saying, The serpent is a highly complex and universal symbol. Followed by descriptions of the serpent... Coiled, without legs or wings, with the eagle, with the stag, solar rays, primordial nature, self creating divinities, aggressive power, the underworld, the great Mother, for the Christian the snake can change places with the Dragon... on and on including the differences in practically every known religion and nation.

Specific for the Roman... Serpents were associated with the savior divinities and fertility and healing deities such as Salus. The serpent is an attribute of Minerva as wisdom.

Specific to the Greeks... Wisdom; renewal of life; resurrection; healing an as such an attribute of Aesculapius, Hippocrates, Hermes and Hygieia; it is also an aspect of Aesculapius as savior-healer. It is the life principle an agathos daimon; sometimes it is theriomorph of Zeus/Ammon and other deities; sacred to Athens as wisdom and particularly to Apollo at Delphi as light slaying the python of darkness and of the deluge. Apollo not only fees the sun from the powers of darkness but liberates the soul in inspiration and the light of knowledge.

The serpent is associated with Savior deities of the Mysteries and also represents the dead and dead heroes; The vital principle, or soul, left the body in the form of a snake, and souls of the dead can reincarnate as serpents. The snake is a symbol of Zeus Chthonios; it is also phallic and is sometimes depicted wrapped around an egg as a symbol of vitality; it represents the passions vitalizing both the male and female principles. Women with hair of serpents, such as the Erinyes, Medusa and Graia, signify the powers of magic and enchantment, the wisdom and guile of the serpents. Two huge serpents, sent by the offended Apollo, crushed Laocoon and his two sons. Three serpents on the breastplate of Agamemnon are equated with the celestial serpent in the rainbow. Bacchantes carry serpents.

Cooper also says the mountain symbolizes the world center, the omphalon, through which the polar axis runs and round which glide the dragons (serpents) of the cosmic powers. The highest point on earth is regarded as central, the summit of Paradise, the meeting place of clouds, heaven and earth, the support and abode of the gods. It is the embodiment of cosmic force and life - lots more but that is the first bit written about mountains. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanK

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #401 on: February 07, 2016, 04:28:43 PM »
First we have to go watch one of our versions of the Pythian Games, the Superbowl. (But first, the Puppybowl).

The Romans were tremendous sports fanatics, as are we Americans (I'll bet even Ovid took time off from writing to visit the local version of the Coliseum). Sports are another thing (along with religion) that seem to be universal.

collierose

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #402 on: February 07, 2016, 05:38:58 PM »
I just ran across this as I was listening to Pandora.  Karl Ditters von Dittersdorf wrote Six Symphonies after Ovid's Metamorphoses.
They are to reflect the stories related in Ovid's celebrated poems. I never knew this existed before.  Quite delightful.

http://www.allmusic.com/album/karl-ditters-von-dittersdorf-6-symphonies-after-ovids-metamorphoses-mw0001843614


http://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/dittersdorf-6-symphonies-after-ovids-metamorphoses

How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #403 on: February 07, 2016, 07:06:36 PM »
Collierose, delightful indeed, even though I could only get a few snippets.  I had no idea either.  I bet there are more musical works based on Metamorphoses.  Does anybody know of some?

We meet two of the six pieces of music in Book I: The Four Ages of the World, and Phaeton's Fall.  (OK, Phaeton doesn't fall in Book I, but we meet him.)

German is a kind of sturdy language.  "Verwandlung" seems clunkier than "metamorphosis".

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #404 on: February 07, 2016, 07:57:55 PM »
You reshaped my evening, collierose.  I thought of Handel's Acis and Galatea (the story is in Book XIII) and that led me to pull it up on youtube, which means keeping in range of my computer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e1QjZ0heY4

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #405 on: February 07, 2016, 08:30:45 PM »
I am more than ready to be done with this section of the poem and move on to the next.......
Bellamarie, I agree; it's time.  We've finished the setting up, and are about to move on to a different phase.  I'll figure a schedule shortly.

As always, PLEASE, anyone who has anything to say about past stuff, it's still relevant and welcome.

bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #406 on: February 08, 2016, 12:39:07 AM »
Thank you Collierose, those pieces of music are truly relaxing and beautiful.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Frybabe

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #407 on: February 08, 2016, 05:58:32 AM »
What a find, CollieRose.  while I am not a fan of that style of music, I am happy to see Metamorphoses represented in music.

PatH, maybe Don (Radioman) will be interested in doing a mythology theme on his show when he has recouperated.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #408 on: February 08, 2016, 11:57:10 AM »
the short excerpts had me intrigued so I found a CD done by the Budapest Symphony for forty eight cents on Amazon.

Looking forward to the next section...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #409 on: February 08, 2016, 12:47:41 PM »
Wait, wait, let's not go just yet! One more day?

I am so much enjoying what you've all said so far. I would like to hear a little bit more about some of the areas you're delving into.  This is dazzling, as befits the subject, I think Ovid would be proud of you all.

I am hung up on some things way back there. I want to use that info about Rational Numbers. I am a math illiterate. Can I say that in a rational number after the decimal point if extended infinitely that a pattern will develop? Did I understand that correctly?

And is the reverse true? That in an irrational number no pattern will develop? That would make a wonderful  allegory. :)

I would like to know if that's a true statement before I make a fool of self with it.


BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #410 on: February 08, 2016, 12:55:18 PM »
whoops stumbled upon this bit -

Themis was the Titan goddess of divine law and order--the traditional rules of conduct first established by the gods. She was also a prophetic goddess who presided over the most ancient oracles, including Delphoi. In this role, she was the divine voice (themistes) who first instructed mankind in the primal laws of justice and morality, such as the precepts of piety, the rules of hospitality, good governance, conduct of assembly, and pious offerings to the gods. In Greek, the word themis referred to divine law, those rules of conduct long established by custom. Unlike the word nomos, the term was not usually used to describe laws of human decree.

The Pythia, commonly known as the Oracle of Delphi, was the name of any priestess throughout the history of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi.

Moral character was of utmost importance when selecting each new priestess, and even if the newly-chosen Pythia was married and had a family, she had to relinquish all familial duties in order to fill her role in the temple. Pythias were likely women from higher-class families, were educated, and well-read.

The last recorded response of the oracle was given to Emperor Theodosius I, after he had ordered pagan temples to cease operation. (Theodosius was the Emperor just before Constantine who became ordered everyone in the Empire to become a Christian)

Delphi is situated 2,000 feet above sea level, set in a semicircular spur of Mount Parnassus which rises to 8069 feet, this natural barrier is known as the Phaedriades (shining ones), and overlooks the Pleistos Valley. Delphi was known as the center of the world, the Omphalos, a carved symbol of prophetic arts and also represented the "navel of the world".

The name "Pythia" is derived from Pytho, which in myth was the original name of Delphi. Homer tells of a rocky place called Pytho in his Iliad. 

The Pythia, established in the 8th century BC, was widely credited for her prophecies inspired by being filled by the spirit of God (or enthusiasmos) by the God Apollo. In etymology the Greeks derived this place name from the verb, pythein (πύθειν, "to rot"), which refers to the sickly sweet smell of the decomposition of the body of the monstrous Python after he was slain by Apollo.

Pythia was the House of Snakes. The usual theory has been that the Pythia delivered oracles in a frenzied state induced by vapors rising from a chasm in the rock, and that she spoke gibberish which priests interpreted as the enigmatic prophecies preserved in Greek literature.

It is often difficult to piece out the historical elements in myth. Some scholars believe that the Pythia did go into crazed trances. However, scholars such as Joseph Fontenrose question the historical accuracy of the manic and possessed Pythia. As Powell points out, there is no evidence of a chasm, and laurel leaves are not hallucinogenic

Mythical figure called Herophile, who was more commonly known as "Sibyl" sang the oracle in Gaia's shrine, and from that time on all prophetesses where known by that name. The "Sibylline Rock" can still be seen, and it was here the Sibyl sat and gave out her prophecies speaking in riddles. According to Pausanias, the Sibyl was the daughter of a mortal and a nymph "born between man and goddess, daughter of sea monsters and immortal nymph". According to one legend, Gaia gave the oracle to her daughter, the goddess of justice Themis, who in turn passed it on to her sister the moon goddess Phoebe.


“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #411 on: February 08, 2016, 01:09:46 PM »
That is wonderful, CollieRose! Thank you so much. Yes in answer to Pat's question, I believe there are a lot of  musical compositions based on Ovid's Metamorphoses, might be exciting to find them.  Art, now music: how Ovid's creativity has inspired so many creative people!

 I saw but cannot put my hands on a spectacular piece of modern art made up of the words of Ovid's definition of change, it blew me away,  as well as all the incredible art we've seen so far. All you have to do is type in Ovid's Metamorphoses Images in Google and be blown away.

Oh and Pat H, Handel!! Oh man, richness indeed.

For sheer verbal richness tho, you can't beat this section. I was not so taken by the snake, meant nothing to me, but you've all done it proud.  But the images!!

Let's go back to Triton. Do you all know who Triton was? Ovid keeps him covered here, we can't see his bottom half.

But what we can see, thanks to Lombardo, is very rich:

Line 344:

as Neptune
Lay down his trident and soothes the waves. He hailed
Cerulean Triton rising over the crests,
His shoulders encrusted with purple shellfish,
And told him to blow his winding horn..

Did you all see the Pirates of the Caribbean? Did you see the ship of Davy Jones? The men on the ship were encrusted with shells, they were turning into shells and were grown over by lichens, etc. Just like that new set of sculptures which are under the sea? People in statues like those lifelike bronzes you often see in cities, sitting and going to work, but they have been placed under the ocean and they also are being transformed by shells and sea creatures so that they are changed.
This is the latest thing in art! And in film!

Ovid wrote this before 8 A.D. Pretty spectacular!

What about Phrrha? Would you, if you had been in her situation, have understood the idea of scattering your mother's bones to create new people? I loved her reluctance there.  I loved the oracle from the goddess Themis who apparently has suddenly appeared:

about line 394:

The goddess, moved, gave this oracular response:

(Oracles were known to be vague, nobody could understand them and they could therefore be interpreted MANY ways) So Themis says,

"Leave this temple. Veil your heads, loosen your robes,
And throw behind your back your great mother's bones."

Here's another piece of art from many on this subject:



and another


and another:


And listen to Lombardo on the nature of these creations:

This is long, let me start a new post:



ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #412 on: February 08, 2016, 01:19:39 PM »
And here is Lombardo's take on what Ovid said about these stones:

Let's go back and start with line 413:

On the other hand, (Pyrrha reasons)
What  harm was there in trying? Down they go,
Veiling their heads, untying their robes, and throwing stones
Behind them just as the goddess had ordered.
And the stones began (who would believe it
Without the testimony of antiquity?)
To lose their hardness, slowly softening
And assuming shapes. When they had grown and taken on
A milder nature, a certain resemblance
To human form began to be discernible,
Now well defined, but like roughed out statues.
The parts that were damp with earthly moisture
Because bodily flesh, the rigid  parts became bones,
And the veins remained without  being renamed...

Golly moses. Did any of you ever see the Invasion of the Body  Snatchers? Where the pods turned into people slowly morphing and becoming people? There were two movies about this very thing, shown in the last one in horrific detail. VERY similar.

2000 years ago.

Back when Phrrha was reluctant to do that to her mother's bones (but let's face it, she was not carrying the skeleton of her mother along so could not have done it). Lombardo translates Ovid as saying.

line 401: At the thought of offending her mother's shades,
By tossing her bones.

Did you all catch that one?

What does it mean? What does it mean about the Romans and how they thought of their gods? It's important and we might have missed it.


ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #413 on: February 08, 2016, 01:31:53 PM »
Jonathan said, I can't get over what Ovid finds in all the old myths. He cuts all the gods down to size in one way or another. Why he has even Jupiter consulting the scroll of fate before taking action. Is he making fun of the whole pantheon of gods? Was he being disrespectful?

What WAS, in fact,  the attitude of the Romans toward the gods they had co-opted from the Greeks and given Roman names? Why was it the Romans would tolerate any sort of god from any sort of place in the world (and did). Including the totally made up god of Serapis?


Jonathan's question is one which has been debated since the poem was written. Is it satire? Allegory? Comedy? Are the gods the only ones who are being treated this way? Is he too facile? (Ovid, not Jonathan) hahaha

In all the Pantheon of gods, is there any so far who has shown any compassion or kindness to mortals?  How would you feel if you were a mortal living post deluge?


ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #414 on: February 08, 2016, 01:39:33 PM »
Joan K said: Of course, no one really believes in the poor groundhog. But the myth could have been based on a peculiarity of German weather, where Spring was always preceded by weeks of cloudy weather...


And then....ROUNDHOG DAY: I love groundhog day -- an example of us modern, scientific people using an old myth to predict the weather. The myth dates back at least 300 years, and was brought to the US by German settlers. Punxsutawney  PHIL first strutted his stuff in 1886.


That's it, right there, in a nutshell. The Romans and the old Greek gods.

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #415 on: February 08, 2016, 01:41:11 PM »
Oh there's so much more! Everything you have brought to the table is so rich, let's start with these new items and see what we can discover before we hit the others. Thank you for making SUCH a rich discussion of this poem!

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #416 on: February 08, 2016, 04:51:50 PM »
As the stones started turning into men and women, Lombardo says:

And the stones began (who would believe it
Without the testimony of antiquity?)
To lose their hardness....

Martin:

       ...these stones
(you needn't take this part of it on faith,
for it's supported by an old tradition)--
these stones at once began to lose their hardness...

Does Ovid believe the story or is this gentle sarcasm?  I learned when we were reading Greek plays, that Aristotle says that myth is the best subject for drama, since it doesn't matter how improbable the stories are, we know they are true.  But I have my doubts about Ovid.

JoanK

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #417 on: February 08, 2016, 05:10:06 PM »
I have my doubts about Ovid, too.

Ginny, your definition of rational numbers is good, the number either can be expressed exactly, or a pattern develops. 1 is a rational number, so is 1\4 (.25, expressed exactly) and 1\3 (.33333333... with a pattern). Pi, on the other hand, no matter how many places you carry it to, never falls into a pattern or is expressed exactly.

(Don't  forget, Pi day is coming up. Round up, and celebrate on 3/14/16).

JoanK

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #418 on: February 08, 2016, 05:14:35 PM »
BARB: "The Pythia, commonly known as the Oracle of Delphi, was the name of any priestess throughout the history of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi."

I've been wondering, if the oracle expressed herself through a priestess, the priestess must have been left alive after the flood. maybe the oracle was a disembodied voice.

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #419 on: February 08, 2016, 06:20:32 PM »
I think the different stories about Deucalion and Pyrrha are because the sources are different. I think as I said earlier two different ones come from Apollodorus and Hyginus. Apollodorus was the one who said that Deucalion was the son of Prometheus, and he even included instructions for a boat like Noah's ark, with no animals, which then landed them on Mt. Parnassus. In Hyginus they landed on Mt. Aetna in Sicily.

Did the Greeks believe these myths?  I don't type well and am having to type this from the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature, which is an invaluable source, so I'll just do the Greeks first.  Here are some excerpts:

"Myths are traditional tales, and they have become so because they possess some significance or enduring quality. Many Greek myths seem to center on Mycenae, itself shrouded in myth, from about 1600 BC and were of enduring importance in poetry and art as long as it was of religious importance for cult and ritual.  A striking thing about Greek myth is the importance the Greeks attached to it by the Greeks up to the end of the fifth century. But in that century the medium for serious thought came to be prose.  As Greece moved into the Hellenistic age (Alexander in 323 B.C.)  it became more of a decorative element and less intellectually and emotionally charged. "

The myths of Homer and Hesiod were all the ancient (very ancient) Greeks had and had been passed down to Homer and Hesiod by word of mouth for centuries. They were ALL the Greeks had in the way of gods.

Picking the Oxford back up: "The Greeks did not have a word for religion. They used the word piety. Piety lay in the performance of traditional rituals and in the observance of traditional modes of restrained behavior  and thought expressed in the Delphic maxims. Performance of cult had little to do with men's ideas about god.   State gods were important for the safety of the city and were not to be interfered with. However it was the bond of a common and all pervasive  religion more than any other factor that held the Greeks together.

The old gods and their old myths gradually lost their  vitality among the educated classes in the Hellenistic Age. (late 4th century BC-late 2nd century B.C.)

The simple cults of the peasantry survived.  Among the educated the old religion was replaced, in so far as it was replaced at all, by philosophical systems, notably the Stoic and Epicurean. Ruler cult became widespread in the Greek world at this time. This was a political religion without true religious spirit, the worship of a king as benefactor and protector, more powerful than the discredited gods of Olympus."

Tomorrow: enter the Romans.

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #420 on: February 08, 2016, 10:52:07 PM »
Getting back to music, if baroque isn't your thing, you can come down almost to the present.  Benjamin Britten wrote Six Metamorphoses after Ovid, for solo oboe.  Here's the only complete performance I found online of the 13 minute work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLxWE_7XiWk

And here's Wikipedia's listing of what the six sections represent:

Each of the titular six metamorphoses is based on a character from Roman mythology and includes an inscription summarizing their story:[1]

Pan, who played upon the reed pipe which was Syrinx, his beloved.
Phaeton, who rode upon the chariot of the sun for one day and was hurled into the river Padus by a thunderbolt.
Niobe, who, lamenting the death of her fourteen children, was turned into a mountain.
Bacchus, at whose feasts is heard the noise of gaggling women's tattling tongues and shouting out of boys.
Narcissus, who fell in love with his own image and became a flower.
Arethusa, who, flying from the love of Alpheus the river god, was turned into a fountain.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #421 on: February 08, 2016, 11:42:44 PM »
Thinking about the idea if the Myths were believed - I remember as a child the many times we were told the story of St. Christopher carrying the baby Jesus on his shoulders across the river - using a staff for balance since he was tired with all his carrying since Jesus was one of many - We had medals and amulets and prayer cards all showing the picture of this St. Christoper - as folks began to own cars on the dash was a small statue of St. Christopher.

Then came Vatican II and St. Christopher, along with other saints were no more - turned out they were myths and actual humans with these names that carried out these deeds never existed - Not to say there were folks who as a favor forded a river carrying a child on their shoulder or back or, their job in ancient times may have been to help folks cross a river or, they may have accompanied travelers offering them protection. Within all of us we were told lay a bit of God since we were the children of God. Therefore, it could be interpreted as we help each other we are really assisting God however, during the childhood of Jesus there was no river crossing while sitting on the shoulder of anyone.

Of all the saints who were proven not to have existed and therefore their feast day was no longer celebrated or their feast day marked on the calendar, most of us were devastated over the idea that St. Christopher was a myth who was going to disappear - With such outcry it was decided by some local Bishops to skirt Vatican II and although accepted that St. Christopher as we knew of him would no longer be the story told by the clergy to children, we would keep the St. Christopher medals and statues as a symbol of protection that brings a comfort and a feeling of being protected just as the prayers and devotions to any and all those saints who were deemed genuine. 

And so, where we seldom hear the story that was part of a child's experience, we still keep St. Christopher in our life and some parents still tell the story as they learned it when they were children even though the story is no longer sanctioned by the official church.

How many generations I wonder before St. Christopher becomes one of those old myths - and so a thought of how the gods and goddesses were gradually replaced in the hearts and minds of Romans and Greeks - time and their story was no longer valued by those in power.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #422 on: February 09, 2016, 07:08:25 AM »
Very interesting, PatH. I was thinking tone poem when I listened to it, but I am not sure. Program music for sure. See I am learning more things. I do love oboe. This is Britten's only solo Oboe piece. Oh, yes. The other thing I thought of was how Disney used classical music in Fantasia. I can almost invision this work paired with an appropriate cartoon.

What Barb, What? St. Christopher not real? Not being Catholic, I missed that debate. I see from a quick Google, that his true identity is controversial and that Christopher derived from a title meaning Christ Bearer rather that his real name.

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #423 on: February 09, 2016, 10:28:38 AM »
Thank you Joan K, I hope I can remember that long enough to use it, it looks good, anyway! hahaha

Several people here have commented on what appears to be Ovid's attitude toward the gods. I think that's a good avenue of interest. From the very first moment when he did not name the gods and did not invoke the Muses it appears something is UP. I think you're very astute to notice it, I continue to be amazed at our book discussions here.

When the old Greek gods came into Roman domination the Romans, being practical  people, took what they  wanted, renamed it (Zeus=Jupiter, etc.) and used it in their own way.

Quoting again from the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature (a good read):

"The Latin word religio is of uncertain derivation, and it is a word of wide application. It may denote people's recognition of an external power that exerts a "binding," (ligans) force upon them, the sense of awe or anxiety felt in a place , such as a grove or a spring, believed to be the abode of a numen (spirit) and therefore holy.  King Evander in Virgil's Aeneid says of the primeval forest which clothed the Roman Capitol 'some god (we do not know what god)'....[sound familiar?....] has this grove for his dwelling.

People are intruders into this realm of the spirits and they must therefore propitiate them by suitable offerings and ritual. This sense of spiritual presences permeated daily life, especially the life of the home and the fields."

When Phrrha said she blanched at offending the spirit of her mother's shades, she is talking about the spirits of the dead who were thought to be unhappy and  touchy at best and had to be propitiated by suitable obsequies when they died...and  yearly celebrations of their lives were held  with food at the grave site (compare Dia de les Muertos in Mexico and other Caribbean countries). The dead were thought to be vaguely  unhappy, wandering as shades through the various levels of the Underworld...the Romans views of death are "obscure."

If you ever see a Roman tomb you will see it begins DM: or Dis Manibus: to the spirits of the dead, extremely touchy spirits who could make their own lives, but more particularly the lives of the deceased  miserable if they failed to do the proper thing in burial.

There were healthy philosophic discussions on the nature of religion, Cicero wrote a book on it. He asked at one  point where do you stop with assigning gods to things? Are nymphs gods? If so then are trees? Are satyrs? Where do you draw the line?

Cicero also wrote about a type of life after death and planets beyond our solar system.  He died in 43 B.C.

1." The Romans had no sacred writings, except for formulae of prayer.  They were free to think what they liked about the gods, what mattered were the religious acts they performed. It was the necessity for exact fulfillment of their religious duties which promoted discipline and obedience to the state. "  They relied on ritual and traditions handed down. Every house had an altar and every family was scrupulous in their following of the rituals. Even a small disturbance would throw it off.

"The formula of invocation and ritual were handed down and later recorded by the colleges so in time the ancient words and actions were barely understood. More attention was paid to the ritual than to the personality and attributes of the deity: it not infrequently happened that the ritual survived with the deity itself was forgotten."

3. "The businesslike, contractual nature of the Roman religion is  seen in the very frequent use of vows (vota) public and private. These were undertakings given in the name of the state to offer to the gods special sacrifices, games, a share of booty or temple, if some peril were averted, success achieved, or prosperity assured for a certain period. "  These were put in writing on small things and many of them survive.

4. "With the development of Rome, the Romans attached to the gods their own developing sense of morality; a feeling that the gods were just served to sanction human law...The emphasis placed on  particular virtues such as patriotism and duty led to these virtues, the more so as they were often seen embodied in a line of noble Romans...Thus the Roman religion is at the root of the sense  of duty that marked so many Romans, duty to home, gods, and state.  A national solidarity ensued, maintained by the annual state festivals of the various gods, so that religion became the sanctification of patriotism. "

The Eastern religions, also accepted into  Roman culture like the goddess Isis, who did promote a type of resurrection, were  more personal. And there were many of them, Magna Mater, Dionysus, Serapis, Osiris,  and Mythras, all were tolerated.  Julius Caesar was deified after his death as was Augustus.'

 "The practice of regarding as a god, are at least god like , a person who had converted great benefits was common to both Greeks and Romans. The emperor Augustus, realizing the value of fostering such devotion, encouraged the spread of this idea in the West in a way that would not clash with Roman religious tradition....Augustus and subsequent emperors were deified  after their death. "

5. "This cult of the emperors was the one general test of loyalty to the empire. Subjects might worship any divinity they pleased, but  they also had to worship the emperor as a sign of loyalty. "

They also did auguries and auspices, and oracles, with very fine points between them.   But not all Romans agreed with these, either.

In the battle of Drepanum between Rome and Carthage in 249  B.C., the sacred chickens were consulted by the augurs to tell whether or not, not as in Punxatawny Phil, the future would be told, but whether the undertaking had the support of the gods.

However the chickens would  not eat, so their pattern of eating could not be discovered. Hours passed and the impatient Roman admiral  grew tired of the delay.  Throwing them overboard, he exclaimed,  "then let them drink."

Of course the Romans were defeated and that is why that story has come down to us like a cautionary tale.

Are the myths we're about to read cautionary?

You'll be the judge.

bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #424 on: February 09, 2016, 12:28:01 PM »
Frybabe,   
Quote
The other thing I thought of was how Disney used classical music in Fantasia. I can almost invision this work paired with an appropriate cartoon.

Music in and of itself tells a story.  I can not imagine any movie, play, etc., being as enjoyable, and at times believable, without a score of music to bring the viewer into the storytelling.  I like to close my eyes, listen to pieces of music, and try to imagine what could be set to the music.  Listening to Oboe's piece I can imagine transformations taking place.  There is a calming and then a bit of chaos giving me the impression things are happening, changing, transforming........ then a calming once again.

I felt Ovid stating the stones losing their hardness was a sense of rebirth.  From the Iron Age of hardness, now entering a new birth of possibly innocence and softness again.  Much like the piece of music.  But of course, we know men are going to harden the spirit once again.  It's truly an unavoidable cycle. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #425 on: February 09, 2016, 02:15:22 PM »
"The businesslike, contractual nature of the Roman religion is seen in the very frequent use of vows (vota) public and private. These were undertakings given in the name of the state to offer to the gods special sacrifices, games, a share of booty or temple, if some peril were averted, success achieved, or prosperity assured for a certain period."

Amazing - this could have been written describing the Roman Catholic Church - many a monistary, chapel and cathedral were built as penance by the nobility for wrong doings or, as a special sacrifice or, because of the successful birth of a child. And all the stories of gods and goddesses reminds me of the saints and their stories - granted different in nature but the same principle - showing an powerful existence. I guess it is no small matter that so much business like contractual and organizational change happened because of Constantine, a Roman Emperor, whose handprint is all over the decisions made, although not a part of the councils he called The Council of Nicaea as well as, The First Synod of Tyre.

Love this from Ginny's post - "People are intruders into this realm of the spirits and they must therefore propitiate them by suitable offerings and ritual. This sense of spiritual presences permeated daily life, especially the life of the home and the fields." - I'm now old enough that I have memories as a child of the Angelus being rung on nearby church bells at 6AM, Noon and 6PM and so many trudged up to church in the dark mornings for 6AM Mass - those who commuted to work made the sacrifice to attend daily Mass during Lent - we lived our lives with a "sense of spiritual presences".

Ovid is giving us a guide to the Roman gods similar to The Book of Saints today - I am so glad we are reading Ovid - a new understanding of Roman myth.

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #426 on: February 09, 2016, 02:31:27 PM »
Nice comparisons, Barb.  Ginny has certainly given me a new feeling for what religion did and didn't mean to the Romans.

Frybabe, I'm not a Catholic either, but I remember well how wrong it seemed to me that Saint Christopher should be "demoted".

Bellamarie:
Quote
But of course, we know men are going to harden the spirit once again.  It's truly an unavoidable cycle.
It starts immediately, as Ovid says how men got their hardness from the stones.

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #427 on: February 09, 2016, 02:38:14 PM »
Ginny has raised a whole bunch of questions, and we can talk about them some more, but let's also go on to the next section.  Now we're done setting the stage, and getting to the sort of story that makes up a lot of the poem.  The first story is Apollo and Daphne.  I've put the sections as Kline divides it, and some questions, in the heading on this page.

bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #428 on: February 09, 2016, 06:21:57 PM »
Moving on to Apollo and Daphne, you ask, What is the theme of this story? 

It would seem to be love, but as you read through it, I can also see, jealousy, power, lust, refusal, and revenge.   

It seems Ovid is telling us a love story, Apollo is lovestruck with Daphne, after Cupid has struck Apollo with the golden arrow, which kindles love.  But he strikes Daphne with the leaden arrow which rejects love. So as much as Apollo pursues Daphne she wants nothing to do with him.

Why did Cupid shoot Apollo with the golden arrow of love?  It seems Cupid did not like Apollo bragging about being such a great marksman on the python, so Cupid decides he will shoot Apollo to fall madly in love with Daphne only to torture him by causing Daphne to refuse him.

Mandelbaum's translation:
Now Daphne_daughter of the river-god,
Peneus__was first of Phoebus' loves.
This love was not the fruit of random chance:
what fostered it was Cupid's cruel wrath.
For now, while Phoebus still was taking pride
in his defeat of Python, he caught sight
of Cupid as he bent his bow to tie
the string at the two ends.  He said: "Lewd boy,
what are you doing with that heavy bow?
My shoulders surely are more fit for it;
for I can strike wild beasts__I never miss.
I can fell enemies; just recently
I even hit__my shafts were infinite__
that swollen serpent, Python, sprawled across
whole acres with his pestilential paunch.
Be glad your torch can spark a bit of love:
don't try to vie with me for praise and wreaths!"
And Venus' son replied:  "Your shafts may pierce
all things, o Phoebus, but you'll be transfixed
by mine; and even as all earthly things
can never equal any deity,
so shall your glory be no match for mine."


Looks like Apollo's bragging got him in a real fix with Cupid, he not only fell madly in love, but it almost became an obsession, and lustful.  A love story turned into a tragedy.

It seems a tragedy for Daphne, here she is beautiful and has to be turned into a tree to avoid being accosted by Apollo.

I found this a tad bit interesting: 
In Roman mythology, Cupid (Latin cupido, meaning "desire") is the god of desire, affection and erotic love. He is often portrayed as the son of the goddess Venus, with a father rarely mentioned.

In Roman mythology, Venus was the goddess of love, sex, beauty, and fertility. She was the Roman counterpart to the Greek Aphrodite.
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=is%20venus%20the%20god%20of%20love
 
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__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #429 on: February 10, 2016, 12:38:47 PM »
It's an odd, lopsided love story, isn't it.  Apollo so smitten, and Daphne so reluctant.  She's the innocent bystander here.  Apollo perhaps deserved what happened at least a little, but Daphne had nothing to do with any of it, just an innocent bystander hit by Cupid's arrow.

There are a number of striking bits in this story.  Which was your favorite?

bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #430 on: February 10, 2016, 01:24:30 PM »
Yes, I did feel a bit sad for poor Daphne who did not choose to be in the middle of this egotistical behavior of Cupid and Apollo.  With Valentine's Day in just four more days, it's ironic we are here at this part of the poem discussing love and Cupid.  So why not share the song.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOho-r-oBog

I particularly like this pic of Daphne, Apollo and Cupid

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #431 on: February 10, 2016, 01:36:40 PM »
Thought this was an interesting tidbit:



Not the cute little cherub with good intentions as portrayed on Valentine's Day. 


“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanK

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #432 on: February 10, 2016, 05:14:14 PM »
Not the Sam Cooke of "A change Gonna Come" And "Chain Gang Song" but still good!

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #433 on: February 10, 2016, 05:16:36 PM »
It is an interesting story isn't it? So many myths  and fairytales seem to feature unrequited love which is certainly a theme. It appears that Apollo just won't take no for an answer ...that's a good point, Bellamarie -such a funny thing with Valentine's Day coming up to have the little Cupid running around actually not doing so many nice things, is he?   I find it interesting that he has wings. I don't know why, there are  Putti in the art all over the ancient houses of Pompeii-- little figures running around with wings. I think it's interesting.

Those poor nymphs.   It must've been a hard life because they are constantly being pursued by men and it seems they don't want anything to do with them .....They  want to devote themselves to Diana and just run around in the woods.

 It's a terrible thing I don't know if you all have seen the recent news story it was either on CNN or the BBC but there's a man in Bangladesh whose hands have taken on the appearance of developing into leaves....it's it's just an awful thing I wouldn't put a picture of it here it's some kind of skin condition but they look exactly like the hands and the Bernini sculpture and it's not funny to him at all. They're going to help him with that ---they're going to operate on it .   Life imitating art .






ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #434 on: February 10, 2016, 05:24:40 PM »
It's suddenly occurred to me to think in sort of a careless way how many Metamorphoses there are in the story. First I thought there was just the one-- she is turning into a tree and she's got bark she's got leaves she's turning into a tree,  but I'm wondering if there are others or if we would have to consider that the change of appearance  was the only  part of what we would be calling a metamorphosis?

Change of form  is what  he said he was going to do but we have other changes here we have Apollo turning into some kind of rabid suitor.... I wonder if that counts?

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #435 on: February 10, 2016, 05:28:55 PM »
She's the innocent bystander here.  Apollo perhaps deserved what happened at least a little, but Daphne had nothing to do with any of it, just an innocent bystander hit by Cupid's arrow.

Makes you  wonder which one has been victimized the most, doesn't it? Would we all say that Daphne's got the worst end of this?

bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #436 on: February 10, 2016, 10:50:37 PM »
I saw the pic of the man with the hands turning into leaves on Facebook.  It was very gross looking, I am happy to know they can help him.

I was a bit disturbed with Cupid causing Apollo to have this obsession with Daphne.  Neither deserved for Cupid to take it upon himself to shoot either of them and cause this situation.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #437 on: February 11, 2016, 08:30:54 AM »
Ovid does make one feel partly sorry for Apollo.  He's distressed that Daphne will hurt herself fleeing (but not enough to make him stop chasing her).  And when she turns into a tree:

Apollo still loved her, and pressing his hand
Against her trunk he felt her heart quivering
Under the new bark.  He embraced her limbs
With his own arms, and kissed the wood,
But even the wood shrank from her kisses.      Lombardo

Touching, but remember the way the gods behaved.  There will be others.

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #438 on: February 11, 2016, 08:35:48 AM »
To me, the most touching lines in this section are the last.  Apollo has just explained to the Daphne-tree how she will be ever green, adorn the brows of heroes, etc:

Apollo was done.  The laurel bowed her new branches
And seemed to nod her leafy crown in assent.          Lombardo

Is she sadly resigned?  Pleased with her new, important role?  We'll never know.

Frybabe

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #439 on: February 11, 2016, 08:49:30 AM »
I think Daphne/Laurel was acknowledging that Apollo spoke not of own his selfish, lustful desire, but of something bigger than himself, in perpetuity. Perhaps he became a bit more humble and less egotistical and self-centered? I think that may have been Cupid's point. At the beginning of the story, he was quite the braggart and thought himself better than others (or at least Cupid).

Oh, gee, did I turn this into something of an Aesop's Fable moral?