Author Topic: Ovid's Metamorphoses  (Read 126918 times)

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #440 on: February 11, 2016, 09:37:29 AM »


Apollo and Daphne
by Artist
Gian Lorenzo Bernini (1622–25)
Galleria Borghese, Rome


(The Lombardo translation is highly recommended, but there are tons of them available online, free.   Here is a sampling, or please share with us another you've found which you like:)


---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088---Translated by  A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...


---http://classics.mit.edu         /Ovid/metam.html...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al


----    http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html----Translated by Brookes More




Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm

-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm




For Your Consideration:

“Week” Three: Tales of Gods and Humans, February 9--?

  First tale: Apollo and Daphne
   
   Bk I:438-472 Phoebus kills the Python and sees Daphne
   Bk I: 473-503 Phoebus pursues Daphne
   Bk I:504-524 Phoebus begs Daphne to yield to him
   Bk I:525-552 Daphne becomes the laurel bough
   Bk I:553-567 Phoebus honours Daphne

1. Why do you think Ovid starts the main theme of his poem with the  Daphne and Apollo story?  What is the theme of this story?

2. What is ironic about Apollo's pursuit of Daphne?

3. Why the contrast between the two archers?

4. Who won this contest? Who is the victor and who the vanquished?

5. An aetiological myth is one which explains how something came to be. Is Apollo and Daphne an aetiological myth? Why or why not?

6. What image in this short tale made the most impression on you?



Discussion Leaders: PatH and ginny

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #441 on: February 11, 2016, 09:39:14 AM »
I'm really impressed with your interpretations.  You're all seeing things in it I did not see. I think with these ancient gods or should we say "Gods Behaving Badly,"  that I tend to just think with a whitewash brush and think oh there they go again, and you've all shown something more here.

I don't know why I keep blaming Apollo.  I failed to see the pathos in his own situation. It's not his fault, he CAN'T stop, then? Or is this a case of the modern day "the devil made me do it" excuse?  Such an interesting thing to read as Valentines Day nears.  And what kind of "god" is Apollo anyway?   You have to wonder if he's a such a  minor god so that he can be influenced  or even driven by others? This is a strange story.

What IS the "cultural truth value" in this one, I wonder?  I think maybe Frybabe hit on it!  (I'm trying to put one in each myth to see if it fits).  I'm going to have to read that again. I had NO sympathy for Apollo, at all. 

Do you think Ovid has drummed up any sympathy for Daphne, tho? 

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #442 on: February 11, 2016, 12:01:39 PM »
I am very confused now - how are we speaking as if these gods are outside ourselves - I thought they were gods - and gods are an expression of our own life experience that someone like Shakespeare put the story of the gods better into human perspective - that a cupid only represents a passion that takes over within ourselves and the only thing about this story is that it is written during a time when no one could imagine a women chasing a man - at this time in history before we know about the brain and emotions and psychology the behavior and emotions of men and women were brought to the surface as gods uncontrollable by humans. The aspects of gods actually became the names we still use today for some of our feelings.

I am really bewildered - not funny - my head actually hurts trying to hang on here but I am really having difficulty wrapping my head around this dichotomy - even when I was a young women, long before women's rights, it was considered the ideal to have a man chase you and be so out of control in love with you that others would tease the guy - I am trying to match my life experience with what is being said here about cupid being a culprit as if cupid is not part of ourselves or not part of the pantheon of gods that are simply aspects of humans and the human condition -

Where the lives of the saints may show us how another used the very nature we all posses in a positive way the gods and their stories were extractions of all aspects of our nature that explained to man the being of man as well as, the being of the universe.

If the gods and goddesses are not part of ourselves than what is really confusing is why the reminder of justice that we see depicted outside most courthouses with the statue of Themis - isn't that to remind us to look within and set our personal opinion, rage, support aside and when we enter this building we are entering the realm were we are as members of a jury all equally looking for justice  - that the statue of Themis reminds us to tap into our inner capacity to seek justice and so too all these gods are an expression of life... rather than thinking Themis must enter as an outside force and affect us in order for us to be just...

The more I ponder what I have been reading the more confused I get - maybe I should go for a walk and just wait till we are past all this because try as I am I feel like y'all truly must know something I do not and like Alice I've just dropped into the hole to wonderland. I'm not being sarcastic here I am really confused.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #443 on: February 11, 2016, 12:52:31 PM »
Frybabe,   
Quote
Perhaps he became a bit more humble and less egotistical and self-centered? I think that may have been Cupid's point. At the beginning of the story, he was quite the braggart and thought himself better than others (or at least Cupid).

Okay, if I look at this from other scholars points of view which I have spent a day reading different analysis' of this part of the poem, there just isn't anything I can deduce to understanding why Cupid feels the need to destroy Daphne's life because he wants to exact revenge on Apollo, for bragging about being a good marksman.  I did not see Apollo becoming less egotistical or less self centered, if anything he takes leaves from the laurel tree and says he will adorn himself with them to have Daphne with him forever.   Ughhhh....... STALKER!!!!!  But in defense of Apollo, he is not in control of his own feelings since Cupid has shot him with the dastardly arrow. 

Ovid not only has put the female in a position of all the males deciding her eternity, e.g. Cupid, Apollo, and even her father, but he determined her fate due to two gods egos.  Call me a modern day feminist, but it does not sit well with me that Daphne's life should be ruined because two gods wanted to flex their muscles. Not seeing any moral or point to this except for don't tick off Cupid.   >:(

I suppose since the poem is called Metamorphoses, this part of the poem shows transformation, Daphne into a laurel tree.  Like many love stories turned tragic, this is one for the books.   

Apollo didn't seem to fare well in the department of love....
http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/myth-stories/loves-of-apollo.htm

Barb, maybe that laurel tree is Alice's journey, after all she did fall asleep and have her dream beside a tree. A bit of humor to lighten the mood.  I have a whole new outlook on Cupid after reading this poem.  That little cherub is a troublemaker going around determining people's love lives.



 



   
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #444 on: February 11, 2016, 02:53:36 PM »
Ancient Greek manuscripts reveal life lessons from the Roman empire

http://tinyurl.com/jpfqvej
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Jonathan

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #445 on: February 11, 2016, 03:40:58 PM »
Thanks for the Latin lesson, Barb. How I wish I could be reading Ovid's poem in the original form. I envy all you Latin scholars.

Don't give up, Barb. Wait for your own metamorphosis. A light went on for me when I saw the word 'Verwandlung' in one of Pat's comments. For me Verwandlung connotes tremendous transmutional potential.  The word is a linguistic birthright for me. Aha, so that's what metamorphosis is all about.

It makes me want to ask Bellamarie: Have you never wanted to be a tree? It's beautiful in so many ways. And who was the poet who reminded us that only God can make a tree? Do you think that Cupid himself was in love with Daphne?

JoanK

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #446 on: February 11, 2016, 04:00:42 PM »
FRY:" Perhaps he became a bit more humble and less egotistical and self-centered? "

Hubris again! It seems to be the primary sin in these stories. I've been thinking about it: we still have the belief that if we're too cocky we'll be cut down to size. I know whenever I say something cocky (like "I'm getting really good at this!" I have to modify it ("now I'll probably mess up!") for luck.

JoanK

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #447 on: February 11, 2016, 04:03:04 PM »
GINNY: do these stories originally come from the Greeks, or are they of Roman origin? Or is it mixed?

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #448 on: February 11, 2016, 04:31:12 PM »
Joan K, they're both. This one is thought to be pretty much Ovid. There were prior stories of Apollo loving Daphne but they weren't to this extent fleshed out. The early Greek myths were sort of outlines, most of them, and Ovid here has taken it on for his own.

Apparently this particular myth came late in Greek mythology, and they were originally set in the Peloponnese , not in Thessaly.

Anderson says "Ovid uses Apollo to develop a thematic representation of male erotic  desire, an obviously flawed kind of love.  Exploiting the familiar motifs of elegy, he lightly mocks  the god's almost human helplessness and also lightly hints at the selfish violence that lurks underneath those trite elegiac formulae of wooing. Daphne, too, proves a loser, she cannot survive as a virgin and prefers to sacrifice her human form rather than yield to an undesired  god. Yet she is being punished for insisting on virginity. "

Barbara, I don't see anything wrong with anything you've said. As Dr. Travis says, myth is about seeing the cultural truth values that exist today, they sort of symbolize them. It's been 2000 years since Ovid wrote this and it might be a sort of window on his world or it might not. Nobody knows what it is.  The Anderson view is one opinion, and while nobody can counter him in Latin analysis, perhaps some of his thoughts are not our own in 2016. I particularly dislike his use of the term "loser" for Daphne.

What do the rest of you think of that? Who is the victim here and what or nothing has Ovid done to make us see it?

You are all entitled to anything you think about the poem and you've shown deep insights. I would not, however, ascribe Christian beliefs to this particular poem as Ovid was a pagan in the true sense of the word.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #449 on: February 11, 2016, 04:50:32 PM »
OK - this bit shows that even in this humans question the gods and try to get some sense that relates to their viewpoint.

Not talking about this bit only using it as the example of how humans question the gods and how they handle satisfying an understanding that fits their viewpoint.

Quote
For a long time they stand there, dumbfounded. Pyrrha is first to break the silence: she refuses to obey the goddess’s command. Her lips trembling she asks for pardon, fearing to offend her mother’s spirit by scattering her bones. Meanwhile they reconsider the dark words the oracle gave, and their uncertain meaning, turning them over and over in their minds. Then Prometheus’s son comforted Epimetheus’s daughter with quiet words: ‘Either this idea is wrong, or, since oracles are godly and never urge evil, our great mother must be the earth: I think the bones she spoke about are stones in the body of the earth. It is these we are told to throw behind us.’

OK before we have Cupid darting Apollo we have as Kline transcribes "And though fire and water fight each other, heat and moisture create everything, and this discordant union is suitable for growth."

And so I am seeing that the fire of desire darted into Apollo

"You should be intent on stirring the concealed fires of love with your burning brand, not laying claim to my glories!’ Venus’s son replied ‘You may hit every other thing Phoebus, (Apollo) but my bow will strike you: to the degree that all living creatures are less than gods, by that degree is your glory less than mine.’"

Cupid is saying here that he has the power to infuse the fires of love with his arrows or darts as some translate it. He is suggesting this fire of love is within all living creatures and therefore, are the gods, less than.

These gods are written as so many today write about a single God that has the qualities of a man even though no one has ever seen God - the single God today is described as anything from kind, loving to punitive, threatening or unreliable. All aspects that man can understand and have attributed to God. Therefore, it is not too outlandish to see that the Roman and Greek Gods were fashioned by the behavior of man that was understood at the time.

Marriage was not based on love till the twelfth century - Courtly love that started in the 9th and 10th century was about a young man obsessed with an older, married women - the more pleasing his gifts of song, writing poetry to her and starving himself to show his passion were expressed he was considered more besotted espressing courtly love - during this time the marriage was performed by the father uniting his daughter for the sole purpose of procrastination. And so she had to be enticed or commanded.  Remember Shakespeare makes this into a comedy of behavior in Taming of the Shrew later to become a musical Kiss Me Kate.

Also, we had during this time frame, words from Aristotle saying, that being unmarried was the higher order - as to the concept of marriage vows shared with a priest present - in the early church we have virginity being extolled some asked for the presence of a priest only to bless what was considered sinful since the Church too thought if Jesus was unmarried it was preferable and the hope was that a priest's blessings would sanctify this sinful union. Marriage as we know it with vows exchanged in front of a priest rather than the Bride's father, only became traditional in the middle ages and only became equal to Baptism in the late 12th century.

Phoebus begs Daphne to yield saying he will not be rough giving examples of her flight bringing herself harm. Which is how many a young girl at a young age still feels till she wants the attention of a male - at this time in history "And though fire and water fight each other, heat and moisture create everything, and this discordant union is suitable for growth." Daphne was probably all of maybe 14 years old if that... and expected to think of herself as a pure virgin - we know that boys mature sexually early with their peak during their late teens so that with no understanding of how sexuality is within us it would be easy to imagine a god being in charge and this time it is the arrow of a cupid.

If we are being poetic about ourselves - out of the blue we can feel a sexual attraction just as if we too were hit by cupid's arrow. We actually hope that a boy will become obsessed with his desire so that the union instead of being forced is a love match - we hope he will be "urged on by Amor, he ran on at full speed."

As to, "he driven by desire, she by fear." Has been the example of the coupling after marriage even in the early part of the twentieth century - a 'good' wife was innocent and fearful while the boy of maybe the same age or a year or so older was a 'man' that some had fathers who initiated them by bringing them to say it delicately as many did 'the local house of ill repute'

Today our fear seems to be centered around if the marriage will last and is he all that he appears - we have little to fear that we are being forced or complying with family demands to marry a certain man.  But we can still use the balance between desire and fear as a story within - when we are smitten by the arrow are we acting responsibly or not - this is not the balance we experience later in a marriage but when we are first smitten it is what we hope young people consider so that the safety of water can douse out the fire.

In this story the safety of water can be thought of in several ways - there would be no escaping for a young women courted for marriage - the father would chose someone - and so her emotional flight, "Peneus’s waters near cried out ‘Help me father! If your streams have divine powers change me, destroy this beauty that pleases too well!’ Her prayer was scarcely done when a heavy numbness seized her limbs, thin bark closed over her breast, her hair turned into leaves, her arms into branches, her feet so swift a moment ago stuck fast in slow-growing roots, her face was lost in the canopy." suggests to me two things.

It could suggest she no longer is her own agency - she is now the property of another and as if an appendage to the man, as if a tree growing from the mud - therefore, the second, as a symbol of a tree planted firm in these new waters of matrimony, like a tree she will grow and shelter their impregnated seeds. Which would satisfy the proclamation in the early part of the poem that said, "And though fire and water fight each other, heat and moisture create everything, and this discordant union is suitable for growth."

I see all of us made of water and with the ability to open our arms like a tree as well as, out of the blue being smitten by desire for not only another human but, for all sorts of creativity that is nurtured as if we were Daphne no longer fleeing but stuck fast protecting the fire and water, the union of a new triumph.

Yes, I never realized till I wrote all this that I can see the glory in this myth - the dart of a cupid urges an interest into a passion that brings something glorious to our lives.

Ha ha just read the posts y'all posted while I was writing this and digging deep to figure out what it meant to me. I guess I did have my metamorphose.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #450 on: February 11, 2016, 08:24:35 PM »
Jonathan
Quote
It makes me want to ask Bellamarie: Have you never wanted to be a tree? It's beautiful in so many ways. And who was the poet who reminded us that only God can make a tree? Do you think that Cupid himself was in love with Daphne?

No, actually I don't ever recall wanting to be a tree although, I think trees are beautiful!  I just don't think I would want to be one, and Daphne surely did not deserve to be turned into one because two male gods couldn't keep their egos in check. 

I do not think Cupid was in love with Daphne.  Cupid was really insulted by Apollo, insinuating his bow and arrow was too big for him, and so Cupid wanted to show him he had the power to mess up his life, and so he did.  Daphne was an innocent victim.

Ginny,
Quote
You are all entitled to anything you think about the poem and you've shown deep insights. I would not, however, ascribe Christian beliefs to this particular poem as Ovid was a pagan in the true sense of the word.

Not intending to debate whether or not Ovid ascribed Christian beliefs to this particular poem, I must say, it may be so that Ovid was a pagan in the true sense, but it does not negate the possibility of Ovid mocking religion by using stories from the Bible, and then transforming them in his Metamorphoses. I see politics and religion, along with lust and lunacy in Ovid's poem. 

You can not be surprised if anyone would mention the parallels, considering many scholars and others over the centuries have also discussed the possibilities.  Just because someone is a pagan, does not make it a definitive fact he had no intentions of religion in this poem. I have read numerous articles throughout the beginning of this discussion that shows controversy, and nothing definite, to the contrary it leaves the possibility open. Not sure why it would matter one way or the other??? 

Patrice wrote: "I couldn't help wondering if Ovid had access to the Bible. It seems quite possible. ."

To the Old Testament, quite possibly, but not the New. But he is telling myths which go back long before the writing even of the OT.

Of course, it's possible that he could have had access to material which both the creators of Greek/Roman myth and the Hebrew Bible writers had access to.

Another post: Ovid seems to have collected all the early stories he could find. He lived long after the writing of Genesis, and the Old Testament, because of the Jewish diaspora, was scattered all through the Roman Empire of Ovid's day. Surely he would have wanted to take a look at it.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1375010-metamorphoses-book-1
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #451 on: February 11, 2016, 08:43:10 PM »
That there are similar stories no one can deny.  I thought the point had been made of worldwide stories.

Ovid mocking religion by using stories from the Bible, Why would he bother when there was so much richness in his own beliefs?  We don't all agree, by the way, that he did draw from the "Bible."  We don't need to. The ancients are entitled to their own stories, history, culture, and viewpoint without being forced into "borrowing from" any different religion, which, particularly in Ovid's case, he could not possibly have physically in his lifetime  encountered (I am speaking of Christianity).

Just because someone is a pagan, does not make it a definitive fact he had no intentions of religion in this poem.   I don't understand this statement.  Who said he didn't have "intentions of religion in this poem?"  But one thing is for sure: it certainly  makes it a definitive fact that he  did not intend "Christianity" in his  work. That's the definition of pagan. In the Vatican.

I am saying that in our efforts to see a cultural truth, we naturally, each of us, use the prism we personally  see through. That's fine. There's no point in preaching to the  choir.    No matter who has said it, what blog, what college student, what  author, none of that makes any difference to the fact that  the man wrote this book before 8 A.D. That alone disqualifies it as any kind of Christian anything.


bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #452 on: February 11, 2016, 09:35:21 PM »
Barb,
Quote
Ha ha just read the posts y'all posted while I was writing this and digging deep to figure out what it meant to me. I guess I did have my metamorphose.

I'm glad you had your metamorphose, I can't say mine has happened as yet, but I do know I do NOT want to be a tree!   ;D

Ginny, I think we need to agree to disagree about referencing this poem to the Bible.  It really seems moot to debate it.  No other scholars have determined the definitive answer so I don't see we will either.  It seems many of the poets drew from many sources even though you mention, Why would he bother when there was so much richness in his own beliefs?   I won't deny he had his richness, and also he drew from other's works.  I am aware a pagan is a person holding religious beliefs other than those of the main world religions, which of course Augustus was not going to tolerate, and his exile after this poem in part was because of his beliefs.

Yes, in fact he was before Christ.   I guess I just don't see why this keeps coming up, why does it really matter?
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #453 on: February 11, 2016, 09:37:22 PM »
Do you mean "moot?"

Because he cannot be a Christian, write about Christians or inject any Christian theology into a document he wrote before Christianity.

Yes, I agree, we definitely disagree and there's no point in it because we're both on the same side.

bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #454 on: February 11, 2016, 09:45:34 PM »
Yes, thank your for your correction, I did mean "moot."  I was still proofreading and modifying. I am well aware Christ had to exist before Christianity could.  I've never mentioned Christianity, I have referenced to his possibility of using stories from the Bible. I don't understand why it is an issue, when so many others before us have seen the similarities and have been able to respectfully, discuss them in their groups.  Mea Culpa.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #455 on: February 12, 2016, 12:12:23 AM »
Thought this was an interesting small summary with art.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3RSRrUL1Os
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #456 on: February 12, 2016, 07:27:42 AM »
THAT is incredible, isn't it? They do a great job on the Bernini, terrific find! Thank you for bringing that here.

I am fascinated by everybody's  thoughts on the ending here, the possible moral. The moral as in an Aesop's fable versus the theme.

PatH mentions To me, the most touching lines in this section are the last.  Apollo has just explained to the Daphne-tree how she will be ever green, adorn the brows of heroes, etc:

Apollo was done.  The laurel bowed her new branches
And seemed to nod her leafy crown in assent.          Lombardo


Is this what your translation says too? She is nodding her leafy head in assent? Assent to what?

She has agreed to her life ruined because of somebody else's...what?

Bellamarie said:
Okay, if I look at this from other scholars points of view which I have spent a day reading different analysis' of this part of the poem, there just isn't anything I can deduce to understanding why Cupid feels the need to destroy Daphne's life because he wants to exact revenge on Apollo, for bragging about being a good marksman.  I did not see Apollo becoming less egotistical or less self centered, if anything he takes leaves from the laurel tree and says he will adorn himself with them to have Daphne with him forever.   Ughhhh....... STALKER!!!!!  But in defense of Apollo, he is not in control of his own feelings since Cupid has shot him with the dastardly arrow.

Ovid not only has put the female in a position of all the males deciding her eternity, e.g. Cupid, Apollo, and even her father, but he determined her fate due to two gods egos.  Call me a modern day feminist, but it does not sit well with me that Daphne's life should be ruined because two gods wanted to flex their muscles. Not seeing any moral or point to this except for don't tick off Cupid.


That is a very good point! We have here mortal man at the mercy of two angry gods.

What's that expression, sinners in the hand of an angry God?

But what has Daphne done? How has she deserved this? Until we started discussing this with all your really wonderful points, I glossed over this mentally as just business as usual with gods and nymphs. Now perhaps before we read the coming litany of same,  can we say what we think here the point Ovid is making is?

We'll all have different opinions of course  but do we actually HAVE an opinion at this point?

If this happened today, in 2016,  she would not be a tree. It would not unfortunately  be on the front pages of the news, it happens too often. Why is she a tree here in the poem? What does Ovid seem to be saying?

If Daphne has done nothing but is punished (but IS it a punishment, really? She's  a tree and oh look she can adorn the brows of heroes in the laurel wrath for victors of the Romans from time immemorial.) And oh look in the words of the poet she has acquiesced to this....what? Role?

Is Ovid saying she has been transformed into a victor? The mother/ participant from now on of all victorious ceremonies?

Seriously? We will think of her every time somebody rides by with a laurel wreath on his head? THAT is her reward?

Is this tongue in cheek?

Anderson in his commentary picks up on the irony here by calling HER a "loser." And then he says Apollo is a loser too.

I am becoming more and more irritated by the term "loser" in 2016. What IS our conception in 2016 of a "loser?" Cam Newton gave one the other day when he said (paraphrasing) I am not a good loser. To be a good loser is to be a loser. or words to that effect.

If somebody is winning or losing here who would it be to YOU?

And what IS Ovid seeming to say to YOU about the relationship in this new world of his creation of the gods and men?

If we each had to take a stand like Daphne did and plump down for loser, whose loss here is the greatest and why should we be talking about being a LOSER in the interactions between god and man?

I think your own points have called attention to this issue and we're about to have a string of issues just the same in case we missed the point,  but what IS the point? So can we say what WE think is going on here really? There is no answer sheet here but you own true thoughts.

How cool that this ancient poem should be a springboard for such great opportunities for discussion, thanks to the efforts of everybody here.

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #457 on: February 12, 2016, 07:35:21 AM »
Bellamarie, I'm glad you posted that link.  It gives us a chance to see the statue from a lot of angles, and see a lot more detail, and they point out a lot of things.  Have you noticed how different the facial expressions look from different angles?

bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #458 on: February 12, 2016, 09:02:58 AM »
Apollo was done.  The laurel bowed her new branches
And seemed to nod her leafy crown in assent.          Lombardo


This actually saddens me.  I find nothing romantic or positive in this final verse, if anything for me it shows Daphne's final submission to Apollo.  I don't see the laurel tree leaves as something heroic, or for heroes to wear as something positive.  If anything I see it as men showcasing their triumph over the female who lost her life due to the egos of Cupid and Apollo.  In today's world Cupid, Apollo and the father would have stood trial for the attempted rape, and murder.  I see the tragedy in this poem, not romance.   :(
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
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Mkaren557

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #459 on: February 12, 2016, 11:27:11 AM »
       I have trouble when we try to interpret literature and/or history applying our 21st century standards.  How would the Ovid's contemporaries view this myth?  It seems to me that Daphne is punished because she is beautiful.  That beauty lures men to lose control.
      Faced with the expectation that she will produce grandchildren for her father,  Daphne begs: "Dearest father, let me be a virgin for ever! Diana’s father granted it to her.’  He yields to that plea, but your beauty itself, Daphne, prevents your wish, and your loveliness opposes your prayer."Kline
     As Daphne is pursued by Apollo, she prays to her own father:

                                  "Help me, Father!  If your streams have divine power,
                                   Destroy this too pleasing beauty of mine
                                   By transforming me."

Ovid seems to say here that Daphne brings about her own transformation.  In the end, Daphne (the laurel tree), Apollo claims the tree for his own.  So Daphne, even transformed is not free of him.  But she preserves her virginity.  "And seemed to nod her leafy crown in assent." or in resignation.  Young girls who die rather than give up their virginity, were made saints in the early Christian church, and as late as the 1930s Maria Goretti dies other than submit and is canonized by the Catholic Church.  A decade or so ago, a midwestern judge found a man innocent of rape because the young teen girls, who were the victims, were "asking for it" by the way they dressed. 
     I am sure that this is not the only lesson that Ovid wants his readers to absorb, but it seems to be there. 
Questions:
1. How does Cupid transform from the vengeful god of this myth into the sweet baby on Valentine's Day cards?  Will he appear again in the myths?
2.  Doesn't the theme of cocky young men being punished by the gods come up again in the tale of Narcissus and Echo?
         



BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #460 on: February 12, 2016, 02:29:12 PM »
We are all seeing a different angle to this story - much like the photos showing various views of the statue  ;)

I still see what these quotes are all about - that cupid like all the gods are within us as allegories to the human condition that yes, we must take into consideration the mores of the time - before our Christian sensibilities - and when women were at the mercy of the power of men - patriarchy - when you know nothing else the choices in life are very different - I think it is up to us not to judge or make impossible options for any of these characters based on freedoms not even heard of - so substituting today's alternatives and we miss the rich analogy.

How today does a spark of passion affect us - how do we experience a spark of passion - Cupid's role is to light the spark of passion in another and because of historical sensibilities the only suitable gender who could act on and receive a spark of passion is the male.

Have you ever wanted something and gone after it - have you ever passionately loved a child, an adult that you wanted to be with them - protect them by warning them of the brambles (cars in the street), volunteered to save a life or fought as a soldier because of you passion for this country, passionately loved.

Have you ever created something out of passion that grew as if a tree affecting many more than the satisfaction you had at the time of your passion? 

This story is coming on the heals of a world stripped of humanity - we may know it was impossible since there are several who are trailing DNA to our roots in Africa where as the Greek and Roman World - the oldest skeleton remains were found in Ethiopia - the mouth of the Black Sea where we surmise this flood took place is over 5,500 miles away

Those on the trail of DNA found modern humans solely in Africa between 200,000 and 60,000 years ago -  and more recently another source of early man A femur found by chance on the banks of a west Siberian river in 2008 is that of a man who died around 45,000 years ago.

It is only the imagination of those writing who thought the flood covered the entire world - we do not know - we read in Darby Nelson's book of a lake far larger than the Black Sea that finally broke its banks and it did not cover all of North America - it did widen the Mississippi into a major river and did cover much of the Northern part of this country but the entire area now the US was not covered in water.

So Ovid's story is just that a fairytale - a myth - telling a story that the behavior of all life, human or not, is imagined with the impetus for 'being' explained best as containing the soul of a god  - and yes, like it or not compared to today's sensibilities the social behavior between these gods is built on a male dominate system.

If it helps we can even take this out of the realm of behavior and look strictly at the biological nature of passion - we have seen those movies of the sperm traveling helter-skelter toward the womb hoping to get there before the deluge timed with the menstrual cycle washes them away.

Did the passion that culminated in the birth of our children come about from revenge or the result of a heartfelt expression of love - did our womb open itself to every bit of the expression of love - we may have but, even before birth control, nature protected us from multiple births impregnated by all the racing Apollos heading for the womb.   

Any myth offers us multiple analogies but to see them I think we need to get past judging the characters and look within ourselves, do the work to find the comparisons and similarities within our own life.

Without Cupid's arrow none of these quotes could exist.

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #461 on: February 12, 2016, 03:56:32 PM »
Remember when...

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #462 on: February 12, 2016, 04:47:15 PM »
Slightly off subject, but while a lot of us are here, I just found out the one of the people who I work with at the library expressed a wish that she could teach a class in Greek. Since she had already left for the day,I couldn't tell her about our Latin classes and our former Greek classes.

Is there any interest in learning Greek?  Perhaps I can persuade her to look into doing one here. I am always ever so hopeful that someday we can get one started again.

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #463 on: February 12, 2016, 07:38:59 PM »
Barb, that's hilarious.  I kind of wish kids still had to diagram sentences.  They don't even seem to be capable of figuring out what's the subject of their sentence.

Frybabe, I'd love to learn both Greek and Latin, but any language work I do just now has to be focussed on brushing up my Spanish, which I'm increasingly needing.

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #464 on: February 12, 2016, 07:42:40 PM »
Bellamarie said:  I see the tragedy in this poem, not romance.   

When we consider that two of the three characters here are gods, do you think Ovid is saying something about the relationship of gods and man?  And if he is, what does it seem to  you he's saying?


Barbara, I miss diagramming. I loved diagramming and thought it was the MOST fun ever. Where did you get that illustration?

Your examples in photos are amazing. The quote by Yo Yo Ma seems to talk about Ovid when it says "Passion is the one great force that unleashes creativity. If you're passionate about something,  then you are more willing to take risks."

That could be an anthem for Ovid in the Metamorphoses, couldn't it?

I'm still not sure what kind of "passion" this is that Apollo has, though. It doesn't seem he's thinking much of Daphne's feelings or happiness, but again as you say it was a man's world.

But surely we could not say HE won? 


ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #465 on: February 12, 2016, 07:56:22 PM »
Karen, I love all your points here!   Not only in the early Empire but Ovid was the most popular Latrin writer of the Renaissance, and that's saying something. I find that amazing.

I am not sure that we can actually put ourselves in the ancient reader's shoes. What a great question!  Because they DID have their own mindset and some of their idioms can't be translated even today.

The Oxford Companion to  Classical Literature says the poem seems to have been composed from 2 A.D. onward.  They say "Ovid's poetry had made him a leading figure in the social and literary circles at Rome
 
....It says that he was very influential on later Roman writers and was read, quoted, and adapted during the Middle Ages. It seems that he was pretty popular, not only during his own time but in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance. But we don't know what they  thought about the individual episodes, or if we do, I don't have that to hand.

There was a lot of carrying off of women as trophies, however, in ancient history and cultures. Even the founding of Rome had the "rape of the  Sabine Women." Perhaps they looked on this one as one of those.

Here the great god of healing can't heal himself, and the great god of prophesy failed to see what was going to happen.

Irony abounds.

Now THIS is an element I missed:

  "Help me, Father!  If your streams have divine power,
                                   Destroy this too pleasing beauty of mine
                                   By transforming me."

Ovid seems to say here that Daphne brings about her own transformation.


Wow. I missed that, entirely! So she thought Apollo would lose his interest if she were not pretty?

What do all of your translations say in this part?


Frybabe

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #466 on: February 12, 2016, 08:00:53 PM »
Diagramming! That had to be the worst of the worst of my English class experience. Ginny m a y have noticed that I tend to run away and hide when we do sentence structures in Latin class. I always consider with wonder how I manage to write well in spite of it.

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #467 on: February 12, 2016, 08:12:47 PM »
2.  Doesn't the theme of cocky young men being punished by the gods come up again in the tale of Narcissus and Echo?

Yes and that's not the only one. If we get to Narcissus and Echo we might want to consider what parallels Apollo and Narcissus had? And again you'd have a hard time saying in the Echo bit who suffered the worst punishment.

And again, it was a god who caused the issue, at least for Echo.

That's a good question on Cupid. Yes, Cupid appears in the Metamorphoses again, with Pluto and Proserpina, and that's another seize and capture type of thing with the Latin word rapio from which we get "rape," and the later art called "The Rape of Proserpine" which actually means the carrying off of Proserpina. Whatever he did, she's transported to the Underworld.  Later on Venus and Cupid have a conversation in which she seems to tell him he's got control of two of the major gods so she should try for the third.

He seems to be her enabler.

Cupid and Apollo argue as to who is the most powerful, in this story, and Cupid shows him, once and for all. 

So: Advantage: Cupid. I guess we can (as shown by Barbara's photos) say we can relate to a cultural truth value here that passion can overcome reason, and make somebody take lots of risks to their reputation?

I'm wondering what Cupid represents.



ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #468 on: February 12, 2016, 08:13:56 PM »
Frybabe, that's exciting! I'm sending you an email on it.

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #469 on: February 12, 2016, 08:27:22 PM »
Mkaren:
Quote
I have trouble when we try to interpret literature and/or history applying our 21st century standards.
Daphne undergoes two transformations.  The first, which she didn't ask for, changed her feelings toward men into loathing.  She asked for the second, though it's not clear whether she knew what the result would be.

Is this a good ending or a bad one for Daphne?  It depends on what you value.  In some other myths, being turned into a plant, or a constellation, or whatever seems to be regarded as a good thing.  You get immortality, and you're remembered--an important cultural value.  So maybe it's good, I don't know.

For myself, I don't much care for the idea of hanging around as a tree rather than a short but merry mortal life.  And if I had to adorn the brow of some general, I'd probably try to scratch him in the eye with a pointy leaf tip.

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #470 on: February 12, 2016, 08:36:56 PM »
And I didn't realize it until I read Pat's post, but this is also an aetiological myth: the origin of the laurel wreath for victory.

I'm still not sure whose victory it is.

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #471 on: February 12, 2016, 09:00:15 PM »
Ginny:
Quote
I'm still not sure whose victory it is.
I'm not either.  And Apollo also wears the laurel wreath.  Is this a tender reminder of the one he loved, or an irritating reminder that she got away?

bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #472 on: February 12, 2016, 09:39:49 PM »
PatH., And if I had to adorn the brow of some general, I'd probably try to scratch him in the eye with a pointy leaf tip.

OMG. I am laughing out loud at your remark Pat.  I'm with you, I would make sure when he put that wreath on his head it would poke his scalp!

I know we should not judge this by modern day standards, but we all seem to fall back on doing just that even once we point it out not to.  After I posted early this morning, I left to do my volunteer work with girls/women who come for support and education during and after their unplanned baby is born.  I kept thinking about Daphne, and how even though she begged her father to transform her to save her from being raped by Apollo, she still is a victim.  Had Cupid not involved her in his revenge on Apollo, Daphne could have remained a beautiful goddess rather than a tree.  And again, I know I should not compare this to modern day, BUT........I thought about Ginny's statement saying it would not be news in today's headlines, but that made me think about past headlines of a fraternity on a campus where young college boys were accused of raping a young college girl..... Hmmmm...I thought about Cupid and Apollo flexing their muscles of strength and skill resulting in Daphne's predicament, being similar to the college boys spiking the girls drink with a roofie and then assaulting her for their simple pleasure of showing off their manliness.  So, yes, as in A.D., and even today, we have the same behaviors of men needing to show off, substance altering the mind, and the female being the victim of their ignorant, immature pranks.  Yep, I would surely scratch Apollo's eyes out with the pointy leaf tips.

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #473 on: February 13, 2016, 01:07:26 AM »
I have no idea what site I looked at and found the diagram - I just took one look and seeing the word transformation had to take it on an Apollo run, here for us to enjoy - I must say for me personally as a kid it was my saving grace - I finally understood how words related to each other in a sentence so I was not memorizing by rote how to talk -

I grew up in a household that as a young child before the age of 6 we talked more German than English - and so going to school trying to switch around words in a different order was pure memory work like memorizing a poem every day - even after we spoke exclusively English at home it was confusing till finally I learned to diagram a sentence - the gates opened and the sun shined, flowers bloomed, the sky was blue and I was at peace so that I could even make friends in the playground and not feel overwhelmed with how to speak.

I'd already had a serious love affair with reading and where the sentences smoothly rolled together I could not duplicate saying them off the cuff so to speak until I finally understood the structure - I wonder how many kids today who come to America with no English would have an easier time of it if they still taught diagramming sentences in school.

Well if the victory was measured in how Apollo added to re-populating the earth he came in last didn't he.

You know, all this raping of women - seems to me there are still communities in places like Kazakhstan and even the mountains of Romania where an old practice of kidnapping your bride is the way of things - one of those nations - vaguely I am remembering it was Turkmenistan, were attempting to put a stop to it - the boys kidnap a girl they desire without the girl even knowing her kidnapper and she is forcefully married to the sorrow of the girls parents. This was on some PBS something and described as an ancient tradition that is still practiced. And so you have to wonder if maybe Apollo being concerned for Daphne running through the briers and wilds was a more gentle and solicitous kidnapper than would be typical of a girl's capture.

I still see a myth that yes, may give a clue to how folks lived and thought but, is essentially an embroidered fairytale like Little Red Riding Hood being hoodwinked by a wolf who had eaten her grandmother and the huntsmen saves the girl.

The story sure lets us know the value placed on a virgin - as a virgin who becomes a laurel bush and her branches crown the heads of kings from Caesar to Napoleon and winning Olympic athletes to an ingredient in Italian tomato sauce, she is quite the memorial to virginity - Maybe Cupid needed to dart both Apollo and Daphne however, I still like the idea of Daphne becoming the protective tree to life - keeps Apollo in check from taking too many risks in his passionate creativity. ;)
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #474 on: February 13, 2016, 09:43:52 AM »
Barb,  What an interesting story of your life with learning English.  I loved diagramming sentences in English class.  My grandchildren go to a Catholic parochial school and they still diagram sentences.  I got a kick out of helping one of my granddaughter's with her English homework.

Quote
I still see a myth that yes, may give a clue to how folks lived and thought but, is essentially an embroidered fairytale like Little Red Riding Hood being hoodwinked by a wolf who had eaten her grandmother and the huntsmen saves the girl.


I agree.  After reading Ovid, I do believe Mythology is my least favorite genre to read.  I am a bit OCD and need structure, logic, and patterns, and for me this is quite the opposite.  He is all over the place, seeming to make it up as he goes.  I can almost picture him at his desk, with quill in hand, pondering what comes next, and how to shock the reader.  This is not critical whatsoever, for his time he was a genius writer.  He pushed the limits in his writing knowing it would be seen, and taking the risks show he was willing to go to places with his writings others may not have dared to. 

I'm too headstrong to be the damsel in distress, or kidnapped by someone and forced to marry, tho it may be customs in other countries I find it repulsive,  and no way am I willing to become a tree, when I could roam the universe, beauty and all.  I would have grabbed that bow and arrow from Cupid and shot him and Apollo with the arrow of love and let them fall in love with each other. Now who is being hubris..... hee hee,  I jest.    ;)
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #475 on: February 13, 2016, 10:02:52 AM »
Bellamarie, you gave me my morning laugh with that one.  I love it. ;D

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #476 on: February 13, 2016, 10:06:48 AM »
Well now this is very interesting. I have never read or heard of Die Verwandlung, and I know I've read some Kafka, but I know I've never read that book and I now am totally intrigued as to our reading here, and what it signifies, period. I can get a book of all his short stories delivered here Tuesday (in the snow) in paperback for 12.00 and I am quite interested to read how it's different from the Arachne story which Ovid did.

I appreciate the mention of this book. Arachne whom Minerva or Athena turned into a spider,  is in a later book than we will read but I love things that come out of a good book discussion, that take you in different directions.

Thank you PatH and Barbara, for that interesting mention.

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #477 on: February 13, 2016, 10:08:47 AM »
But is it Apollo's fault?  What an interesting question.  Why are we blaming Apollo? It's not HER fault, so it has to be his?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #478 on: February 13, 2016, 10:55:57 AM »
I agree Pat - the ahum laurel crown for comedy goes to Bellamarie - seems several writers were taken by the story of Archne - here is a Pablo Neruda that was inspired by the story.

Ode To Sadness -

Sadness, scarab
with seven crippled feet,
spiderweb egg,
scramble-brained rat,
bitch's skeleton:
No entry here.
Don't come in.
Go away.
Go back
south with your umbrella,
go back
north with your serpent's teeth.
A poet lives here.
No sadness may
cross this threshold.
Through these windows
comes the breath of the world,
fresh red roses,
flags embroidered with
the victories of the people.
No.
No entry.
Flap
your bat's wings,
I will trample the feathers
that fall from your mantle,
I will sweep the bits and pieces
of your carcass to
the four corners of the wind,
I will wring your neck,
I will stitch your eyelids shut,
I will sew your shroud,
sadness, and bury your rodent bones
beneath the springtime of an apple tree.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #479 on: February 13, 2016, 11:41:55 AM »
Here is a rather nice online copy of Die Verwandlung that can be read in less than an hour - after each chapter you do have to go to the side drop window and hit the next of the three chapters. In other words the site does not automatically go from chapter to chapter.

https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/k/kafka/franz/metamorphosis/index.html
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe