Ovid's Metamorphoses

[BarbStAubrey]

The Fall of Phaethon by Sebastiano Ricci, 1703-04, Belluno

---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088---Translated by  A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...

---http://classics.mit.edu         /Ovid/metam.html...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al


----    http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html----Translated by Brookes More

Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:

-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm

-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm

For Your Consideration:

“Week” Four: Phaethon!

Bk I:747-764 Phaethon’s parentage
Bk I:765-779 Phaethon sets out for the Palace of the Sun
Bk II:1-30 The Palace of the Sun
Bk II:31-48 Phaethon and his father

What Do You Think?

1. Are there any themes which appear in the beginning of the Phaethon story while it's still in Book I which could happen today?

2. Why is Clymene angry?

Let's discuss the end of Book I.

Former Questions, Still up for  Grabs:

1. What to  you is the saddest thing in the Io story?

2. This story is full of beautiful descriptions. Which lines particularly struck you? Do they interfere with the plot line?

3. What effect do the flashback elements and the interruption of the Pan and Syrinx have on the reader's feelings for Io?

4. What would you say is the tone of the Io story?

5. This is quite a story, it has two metamorphoses and two aetiological myths in it. Which one is the most important?

6. What might Io's struggles to communicate symbolize in our own time?

7. Who actually has the last word in this section?

8. What's your impression of Io's father?

9. If you had to choose between being Io or Daphne, which one would you choose? Why?

Discussion Leaders: PatH and ginny

Thank you, Barbara

[BarbStAubrey]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Homosexuality_%28book%29

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece

http://www.jrdkirk.com/2015/04/15/pederasty-in-rome/

the introduction is included as a free read on Amazon to the book mentioned

http://www.jrdkirk.com/2015/04/15/pederasty-in-rome/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2582648/

http://news.discovery.com/human/female-genital-mutilation-begin-121210.htm

http://www.global-alliance-fgm.org/en-gb/portal/aboutfgm/historicalnote.aspx

https://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/sudan/clitoridectomy-and-infibulation

http://www.fgmnationalgroup.org/historical_and_cultural.htm

There were other sites but since I often go from site to site by clicking a link they do not show up in my history.

[ginny]

Barbara I am sorry I was not clear. Thank you for all that work. I read the first one which has no mention of the charges made here about the "Roman practice of infibulation," which is what I question. I then read the site which did originate it and they say absolutely nothing about citing any ancient source.

What I failed to clearly ask for was the citation of the ancient source from which this "infibulation practice of the Romans"  rumor started.

It's fashionable today to trace anything back to "the Romans,"  because we live in an age where people know next to nothing about classics.

If the "Romans did it" there has to be  an ancient proof, and how  easy it would be to say Cicero said, or Seneca wrote about this or some other ancient proof. There is none.

I think it's a hoax. None of the sites say anything beyond "the Romans did this disgusting practice."   And it's picked up and spread like wildfire.

Saying it with no proof is not enough when you're speaking of historical practice.  No matter how many thousands of sites and/ or blogs  pick it up, quote it without attribution and further spread it.

There MUST be an ancient source. There appears to be none.

I wanted to say when we started this discussion,  but didn't,  that due to the lack of knowledge in 2016  about the Classical world today what matters is the source of the material and a real scholar would cite the source where he or she discovered it.

 I would prefer that we not be taken in this time. An ancient source needs to be cited. Once it's cited we can GO to the actual source and read it for ourselves.  I think we will find somebody misinterpreted the word for brooch in a perfectly innocent document. I have seen this countless times on Wikipedia in reference to the Romans.

We need the ancient citation  and whoever started this for whatever reason needs to be held accountable for where they got it, lest people be misled.  I think  it's important. 

[PatH]

Ginny, I think some of your post is revealing parts of Book ll with the chariot/ car keys.  Are we planning to go beyond Book l?

Since the story of Phaethon continues into Book II, and all the best parts are in Book II, we will indeed go beyond Book I.

We thought that after Phaethon, we would end up with a scattering of the most important and interesting myths from other books.  I forget who has an incomplete translation.  If you are missing some of the stories, the translation by Kline, link in the heading, is good, even if it isn't poetry.  Kline is also useful when you're not sure of the meaning of a line and want another take on it, and there is a helpful index/cast of characters.

http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088

[BarbStAubrey]

Ginny from what I have read it in Rome it was a practice held for slaves - I re-read and that is what I think I shared in the post - one of the sites talk about it originating in Egypt and then the one professor from Egypt says no, that there is no evidence in the explored mummies. He believes the original practice came from sub-Africa - I've shared all that in the post.

This practice, several sites did say, Rome learned about after they advanced into Egypt and that where Egypt may not have started the practice it was an active practice in Egypt when Romans entered Egypt - again, there was no site that said Rome without being specific to slaves -

As to ancient data - there is much being learned because of advances in archaeological research that is adding to our current understanding of this ancient civilization - findings, not included in the plays and story telling. However, again I shared what was repeated in several sites and did not ruminate further.

This practice, to me the issue simply gives another example of the status of women - in Rome the information is, it was the slaves who were the recipient of this practice - and in Greece, how widespread the practice we do not know but, we do know of the effort to stop another practice, the traditional bride kidnapping -

There are several sites that did go into how kidnapping includes rape - some sites parse it further saying if the women is kidnapped for the purpose of marriage than any coupling would be rape - I have not read that Romans traditionally kidnapped their brides except the bit about the Sabine woman - an event that is passed on as a story retold - was it a one time deal or not - we do not know - kidnapping women and raping them today is a crime - in ancient times it was an nonpunishable happening worthy of a story that continues for thousands of years.   

We see example after example of male dominance in these stories and so the concept of the 'good' girl I am seeing as the basis for these goddesses fleeing the male - we do not read how the fathers go after and punch out the males - we read how powerless the women are as they seek comfort even from a father - they, nor the father turn to their fighting nature - the woman only react by attempting to flee - and if like Hera, there is revenge it is not towards the men -

The 'good' girl reaction is typical to women with little to no power over their lives and over their sex lives. As late as 1950 Golda Meier suggested women stay home for their own safety - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/07/what-women-have-to-do-to-be-careful_n_7072080.html

Attempting to learn what the behavior in these stories is saying, since one of the reasons for a myth we learned is to teach - therefore, what is being taught with these scenes - By attempting to explore the status of women, knowing that infibulation was a practice and also, knowing the stories did not originate with Ovid but rather, many coming from not just Greece but an ancient world earlier than Greece and then, Ovid elevated these stories from the spoken tradition of everyday folks to writings, only read by the few who were capable of reading, any practice that would help us better understand the status of women offers some rational - these stories did not continue as classics because they were porn -

We know today infibulation is a huge problem in other areas of the world but not here in the US except by those families who emigrated and continue their traditional practices - Where the practice continues, women are not given the respect that we assume and is ingrained in our modern laws. Laws that for the most part have only been with us in the last 50 or so years.

We also had the good fortune to emigrate from a western culture that believed in love as a basis for marriage - to this day love is not a necessary part of marriage in all cultures. Therefore, for us to get a good handle on the status of women, more than simply as words, so that we are capable of seeing these stories as analogies to our interior life that blends our masculine with our feminine nature.  Made more difficult is seeing these stories as analogies to our interior life from a patriarchal value system. Therefore, to meet that challenge my take is to explore the practices that tie women to male dominance which will help us fathom the analogies as written. 

[PatH]

Ginny, my Lombardo was findable.  Here's the passage:

He had a friend, well-matched in age and spirit,
Phaethon, a child of the sun, who once began boasting
Of his solar parentage and would not back down
When Inachus’ grandson rejected his claim:
“You’re crazy to believe all your mother says,
And you’re swellheaded about your imagined father.”
Phaethon turned red.  He repressed his anger out of shame
But brought Epaphus’ slander to his mother, Clymene:

Martin was hiding, but I tracked him down:

He had a friend, like him in age and spirit,
named Phaethon, the sun god’s child, One day
this boy was boasting, and in vanity
would not take second place to Epaphus,
so proud he was that Phoebus was his father.
  The grandson of Inachus could not bear it:
“You are a fool—to trust your mother’s lies!
You’re swollen with false notions of your father!”
  Phaethon blushed, and in embarrassment,
repressed the awful anger that he felt;
he went back to his mother, Clymene,
and told her what the other boy had said.

And here's Kline:

He had a friend, Phaethon, child of the Sun, equal to him in spirit and years, who once boasted proudly that Phoebus was his father, and refused to concede the claim, which Inachus’s grandson could not accept. ‘You are mad to believe all your mother says, and you have an inflated image of your father.’ Phaethon reddened but, from shame, repressed his anger, and went to his mother Clymene with Inachus’s reproof.

[PatH]

So Phaethon cast the first insult, but Inachus escalated things with a deadlier one.

In general, a moral of the myths is don't get into a boasting or insulting contest; it'll end badly.  Even worse if you take on one of the gods--you're toast, lucky if you end up something good like a constellation.

[BarbStAubrey]

Interesting he reddens from shame and anger, then takes the sun's chariot and cannot handle riding that red ball of fire across the sky and then experiences shame by another god who makes him fall head of heals in order to stop his crashing into earth.

Reminds me of our talk today to create something that would stop a meteor from crashing onto earth - is it the shame  of the universe that allows a meteor to be so wayward as to crash onto earth do you think - just a fun way of looking at this concept of shame for the improbability of imagining the sun as a father figure. Now that I have difficulty with and can only imagine the ancients seeing life as primarily begetting...

[BarbStAubrey]

Just hit me - Phaethon gets angry - we hear of god after god getting angry but when do we ever hear of a goddess getting angry - so looked it up - it looks like when women get angry they are not likened to wrath and sending thunderbolts or carrying out competitive daring deeds or the many other expressions of anger by the gods - if a women is angry she is afflicted with madness, in other words she has a loose screw in her head.

LYSSA was the goddess or daimona (spirit) of rage, fury, raging madness, frenzy, and, in animals, of the madness of rabies. The Athenians spelt her name Lytta.

Lyssa was a figure of Athenian tragedy. In Aeschylus she appears as the agent of Dionysos sent to drive the Minyades mad; and in Euripides she is sent by Hera to inflict Herakles. Greek vase-paintings of the period also confirm her appearance in plays about Aktaion, the hunter torn apart by his madenned hounds. In this scene she appears a women dressed in a short skirt, and crowned with a dog's-head cap to represent the madness of rabies.

Lyssa was closley related to the Maniai, the goddesses of mania and madness. Her Roman equivalent was variously named as Ira, Furor or Rabies. Sometimes she was multiplied into a host of Irae and Furores.

[bellamarie]

Barb, With utmost respect, I have learned over the many years with SeniorLearn there will never come a time we all agree and there is never any right or wrong to a person's interpretation of any set of words.  We draw from our own personal experiences, our own beliefs, our own research, and conclusions of what we ourselves perceive.  I admire how you delve deeper than most of us and are able to go into the time frames of the story.  My comments are never to be combative or argumentative, and for certain never to try to convince another person to change their way of thinking or to show I am right and they are wrong.  I may not always frame my comments in the sense I intend.  But that being said, it's the joys of differences and NO absolutes that make our discussions interesting, lively from time to time, and very informative.  I'll be the first to admit I feel much like a duckling learning to swim up next to most of you brilliant members, and appreciate you even consider my input.

Thank you PatH., for the various translations. 

My translation is Allen Mandelbaum, and his and all the others do show that: Phaethon did indeed throw the first insult at Epaphus.

PatH.,

So Phaethon cast the first insult, but Inachus escalated things with a deadlier one.

In general, a moral of the myths is don't get into a boasting or insulting contest; it'll end badly.  Even worse if you take on one of the gods--you're toast, lucky if you end up something good like a constellation.

Yes, the constant moral we see is, don't tick off any of the male chauvinistic gods, least you will find yourself transformed into god only knows what, or an innocent goddess may be raped and turned into something else as well.  I mean look at what Daphne suffered because Apollo ticked off Cupid.

What was Ovid's intent in bringing up this little tit for tat between what were suppose to be two friends?  Why did Phaethon feel the need to insult Epaphus?  Is this just Ovid finding a segway into the next book, hence Epaphus to cause Phaethon question his lineage, in turn he questions his mother, who then tells him to go to his father for proof? 

Goodness, goodness, Phaethon crashing the chariot reminds me of my son when he was only in his teens borrowing my brand new beautiful sporty Ford Probe, and totalling it.  I suppose much like Phoebus warning Phaethon that was a bit too much for him to handle, I too felt my car was a bit more than my son should handle just getting his license and not have much experience with driving especially on the highway.  Again, nothing much changes over the centuries.  I, like Phoebus should not have given into my son's selfish wants.  What's that scripture, "Spare the rod, spoil the child."
 

[PatH]

I don't recommend ticking off the goddesses (or mortal women) either.  When Actaeon ticked off Diana, she turned him into a stag, so his own hounds hunted him down and killed him.  When Arachne ticked off Minerva by boasting of her weaving, Minerva turned her into a spider.  When Tiresias ticked off Juno, she blinded him.  And when Jason ticked off Medea, she killed their children.

Thank goodness we don't have sun chariots to lend our fledgling drivers.

[bellamarie]

Barb,  I had to laugh out loud reading this:

Interesting he reddens from shame and anger, then takes the sun's chariot and cannot handle riding that red ball of fire across the sky and then experiences shame by another god who makes him fall head of heals in order to stop his crashing into earth.

For some reason I saw poor angry Phaethon jumping from the frying pan into the fire.  He starts his insults, feels shame and anger with Epaphus, and then turns around and creates a huge mess and ends up feeling yet more.... shame and anger.  He just doesn't know when to quit.            

PatH.,  What is that quote, about a woman scorned? 


 

[PatH]

 

[BarbStAubrey]

aowww good ones - Diana and Medea - Minerva spider auh, OK but not really guts and gore,  and Juno blinding Tiresias, a loss but doable for Tiresias - where as Diana and Medea, although most feature her as a 'mad' hag, both do the ugly right up there with the guys.

Please you know this is all tongue and cheek - just reminds me of how we look at girls who get angry versus boys - although I notice it is getting better and girls are acceptable when they show their anger.

I am thinking the moral of the Phaethon story is when you get too big for your hat it is as if you were a taking on the sun, the highest and hottest rights to brag in town - either prove you can do what you say you can do or expect to embarrass yourself when someone takes you down. 

[PatH]

Now Phaethon moves to scenes of great splendor.  The gods themselves are so blindingly splendid that mortals are destroyed if they look on their true form.  (Funny, they don't look that remarkable on the vases.)  Phaethon has to keep his distance from his father.  But Phoebus' palace!  What a rich description of its beauties.  What details resonated most with you?

[JoanK]

BARB: " As late as 1950 Golda Meier suggested women stay home for their own safety." You got the story backward. What she was quoted as saying in the article you cited was "But it is the men who are attacking the women. If there is to be a curfew, let the men stay at home." I also heard that story many times when I was in Israel. 

[JoanK]

having finished the story of Phaeton, I'm wondering if it was passed down as a way of explaining a natural disaster that had happened in the past. Or all natural disasters, since they are all there.

[BarbStAubrey]

I wasn't seeing it as backwards Joan - I saw it as something that was still brought up in 1950 - that ideas like women staying home or what they wore was still a common thought that had to be challenged.

An explanation for natural disaster - had not thought but that could fit wouldn't it - it appears anything not understood was because of the power of a god - maybe healthier than today when things happen beyond our ability to change or to really understand, many of try to either find the good or blame ourselves - hmm now blaming a god - almost like that comedian, forgot his name, that used to say the devil made him do it...

[bellamarie]

I finished reading Book ll today, and it really left me feeling a bit drained.  I was saddened that Phaethon died.  This part just tore at my heart:

HERE PHAETHON LIES:
HIS DARING DROVE THE BOY TO DRIVE
HIS FATHER'S CHARIOT: HE TRIED
AND FAILED.  BUT IN HIS FALL HE GAINED
THE DEATH OF ONE SUPREMELY BRAVE.

Meanwhile,his father, Phoebus, in despair,
hid his own face; the world, for one full day__
if we believe what ancient stories say__
was left without a single ray of sun.
The only light came from the conflagration:
that way, at least, the fires served some need.
But Clymene, once she had spoken all
that can be said when such disaster falls,
went wild; she tore her robes; across the world
she wandered, searching for his lifeless body
at first, and then his bones; and these she found
at last long the foreign riverbank
where they'd been buried.  Clymene lay prone
upon that grave; her warm tears bathed the stone
on which she read his name; beside the Po,
with her bared breasts, she warmed his sepulcher.

I am thinking for me, these are by far the most tender, loving and greatest words expressed, so far in this poem.  Ovid has captured the true unadulterated, unmasked, undying love a mother has for her son.  Absolutely beautiful!!!

[ginny]

Why did Phaethon feel the need to insult Epaphus? 

Just out of curiosity I thought I'd translate the Epaphus/ Phaethon encounter for myself, because some of us are getting something I did not see in the Latin..

Tell me where I'm going wrong here?

Nunc dea linigera colitur celeberrima turba.

Now the revered goddess (Io) is worshiped by a huge crowd.

 huic Epaphus magni genitus de semine tandem creditur esse Iovis perque urbes

of whom Epaphus is believed,  after all,  to be the descendant of great  Jupiter and  throughout the cities (lands)

iuncta parenti templa tenet.

he holds the temples jointly with his parent Io.



fuit huic animis aequalis et annis Sole satus Phaethon,

There was to this young man a soul equal in spirit and years, considered the son of the  Sun, Phaethon

quem quondam magna loquentem

whom once (while) speaking large (just like the modern idiom)  or grandiosely

nec sibi cedentem Phoeboque parente superbum non tulit Inachides

and, not yielding  to him, (Epaphus),  the grandson of Inachus,   not able to bear his (Phaethon's)  pride  in respect to  his parent, Phoebus,


“matri” que ait “omnia demens credis et es tumidus genitoris imagine falsi.”

said "you are demented if you believe all the things  that your mother has been saying,  and you are swellheaded (literally) about the false conceptions of your father.

Beats me how anybody can understand that a boy bragging about his own dad deserved to be told his mother is a liar and his father is not his father.  Them's fightin' words.

Phaethon does not appear to have attacked Io or Jupiter or to have said anything at all about Epaphus but  Epaphus couldn't stand anybody else proud of their parent and turned on him.

That IS  what it says literally. I don't see that Phaethon started anything except bragging on his own father, and would not yield,  (cedentem),  Epaphus would not let him have that moment,  HE was the important one.

I'm sorry but I don't see Phaethon having "started it," or anything else. It didn't get personal until Epaphus opened his mouth.

Here's how Miller translates it:

Now, with fullest service, she is worshipped as a goddess by the linen-robed throng. A son, Epaphus, was born to her, thought to have sprung at length from the seed of mighty Jove, and throughout the cities dwelt in temples with his mother. He had a companion of like mind and age named Phaëthon, child of the Sun. When this Phaëthon was once speaking proudly, and refused to give way to him, boasting that Phoebus was his father, the grandson of Inachus rebelled and said: “You are a fool to believe all your mother tells you, and are swelled up with false notions about your father.” Phaëthon grew red with rage, but repressed his anger through very shame and carried Epaphus’ insulting taunt straight to his mother, Clymene.

[JoanK]

That's interesting. Nothing about P insulting E's status.

Again, the sky staying dark for a day sounds like the aftermath of a volcanic eruption.

[BarbStAubrey]

Do you think her tears are rain that happens with the sun is hidden behind rain clouds.

Clymene lay prone
upon that grave; her warm tears bathed the stone

[PatH]

So Phaethon was bragging, maybe a little obnoxiously, but not really attacking Epaphus.  Since Epaphus is a resident of his mother's temple, he's probably used to being the most important guy around, and can't stand to see someone else be important too.  He blows up, insults Phaethon's mother.  Phaethon, furious at Epaphus, and furious at himself for not defending her, asks for the proof that will set off the tragedy.

It's interesting that in this myth, unlike those we've been reading, no one intends any of the bad things that happen.  Epaphus wasn't trying to get his friend killed, none of the others wanted anything bad to happen to him.  But Phaethon's refusal to reconsider his rash request makes his end inevitable.

[bellamarie]

I think what we need to realize is that each translation is using different words, which depending on which translation you are deciding to interpret you will see and react to.  My translation of Allen Mandelbaum shows that Phaethon starts this entire ridiculous tit for tat by this:  "claimed that he was better born than Epaphus" which in turn Epaphus then decides to retaliate. 

Her son was Epaphus, and it's believed
that she gave birth to him from great Jove's seed;(obviously it was through the rape before turned into a cow)
he shares his mother's shrines in many cities.
The peer of Epaphus in temperament
and age was Phoebus' son, young Phaethon.
Once, Phaethon__so proud to have the Sun
as father__claimed that he was better born
than Epaphus, who met that claim with scorn:
"Fool, do you think that all your mother says
is true__those lying tales that swelled your head?"
And Phaethon blushed: ashamed, the boy was forced
to check his scorn, he hurried off at once
to tell Clymene of that calumny:
"And, mother, what will cause you still more pain,
is this:  I, who am frank, so prone to pride,
was tongue-tied.  I am mortified__ashamed
that I could be insulted in this way__
yet not rebut the charge!  So, if in truth
my lineage is heavenly, provide
the proof of my high birth, and justify
my claim to have a father in the sky!"

PatH., 

So Phaethon was bragging, maybe a little obnoxiously, but not really attacking Epaphus.

I have to disagree, the words state,  "claimed that he was better born than Epaphus".  This is clearly an attack on Epaphus.

I think it shows us that when you decide to brag about yourself, making others feel less born, by claiming you are "better born" you need to understand those can be hurtful and inciteful words.  Phaethon's ego seems to have gotten the better of himself, first he boasts about himself, and when Epaphus takes him down a notch by making him doubt his lineage, instead of standing up to Epaphus like a "better born" proud son would, he instead does nothing and goes to his mother with anger and shame.  It doesn't end there, he has to take this even further and go to his father for proof, and when his father says yes it is true you are my son, that still is not enough he demands his father to prove it by granting him a wish.  And that is not enough, he has to go overboard and ask to drive the chariot no other than his father can handle.  His loving father wants nothing more to please and prove to his son that he indeed IS is father, but he wants Phaeton to be reasonable and level headed, and tells him this chariot is NOT something he can handle. 

For me, Phaethon's words and actions escalated because of his stubborn pride, overinflated ego, and anger and shame.  At some point it is no longer about the original I'm better than you remark, it becomes about Phaethon needing to prove to HIMSELF he is better than everyone else, including his own father.  Putting others down, to puff yourself up is a lesson everyone needs to learn will never satisfy your ownself.  Boasting and bragging to me, is a form of self doubt.  Phaethon was full of himself, and it ended in a tragedy.  There is nothing wrong with having pride of your family heritage, what is wrong, is when you try to make another person feel less due to your pride.

PatH.,

It's interesting that in this myth, unlike those we've been reading, no one intends any of the bad things that happen.  Epaphus wasn't trying to get his friend killed, none of the others wanted anything bad to happen to him. 

I agree, I don't see anyone intended for any of the bad things to happen.

What we can all agree on is that Phaethon's stubborn pride ended in his tragic, senseless death.

[PatH]

Yes, the translations say that Phaeton claims he's better born than Epaphus.  Ginny's point is that that's not quite what the Latin says.

Anyway, a real line was crossed when Epaphus called Phaethon's mother a liar and questioned her story of Phaethon's parentage.  It was reasonable for Phaethon to get so mad at this.  He didn't dare fight back, and afterward was ashamed of himself for not properly defending his mother.

I can't help thinking of it as a boy's  ______ing contest that got out of hand.

Notice that Phoebus gets caught having to honor his promise to Phaethon because he swore on the Styx.

[Jonathan]

I see the Romans vastly entertained and amused by this extravagant tall tale  which begins with Phaethon's pride and ends with Clymene's remorse. She did lie to him and she did send him to his death. Miraculous conception indeed! And of course the sun god would like to believe that he fathered every thing that lives.

What an unbelievable galactic journey. What a poet! What an age!

[howshap]

Would a Roman living in Pompeii or Herculaneum when Vesuvius erupted have recalled Ovid's version of Phaeton as fissures opened in the mountain and deadly ash from the fiery eruption poured down?  Would he or she have prayed to Apollo, Zeus, and Vulcan for salvation?  Ovid's terrifying description of the earthly disaster caused  by  Phaeton's childish wish to drive his father's the golden chariot across the heavens matches the reality of that historic eruption.

The immediate picture  people of our day envision when reading Phaeton  is of an adolescent begging to drive the family car solo.  But Ovid paints a much more profound  picture than that of a heedless teen-ager taking the road to his own destruction.  This is clear from Apollo's admonition (in Lombardo's translation):

….Your lot is mortal; What you ask for is not.
****
None, except myself, has the power to stand
On the running board of the chariot of fire.

So Ovid's  lesson for first century Romans  reiterates  that even the human off-spring of the gods are not immortal and and cannot perform the duties of a Graeco-Roman god.

Neverthless, Ovid imbues Apollo with the human traits of regret for his uncancellable oath, love for his newly found child, grief for the child's death, and a subsequent depression so deep that Apollo wishes to abandon his daily duty to bring light to the world.  In attempting to dissuade his son, he even admits to trembling fear when he is at the height of his journey.   Once again, Ovid describes a god made in mankind's image.

Ovid speaks movingly of  the grief of Phaeton's mother, but,  mocks the mourning  of his  sisters, 
the Heliades, who though they lament no less than their mother,  give  “tears and other useless tributes
to the dead..., calling pitifully/Day and night on Phaethon, who would never hear them,....Is this just a manifestation of cold-hearted Stoicism?  Then the sisters' mourning results, strangely, in another metamorphosis, when they are sealed into trees that drip amber “To be be worn one day by the brides of  Rome.” 

Equally strange is the fate of Phaethon's cousin, Cygnus, who, while mourning is turned into a swan at the site of the poplars that were Phaethon's weeping sisters.  Sad story, but one struggles to find the motivation for it.  Perhaps Ovid recited the tales of the Heliades and Cygnus for no other reason than that they were metamorphoses were already known to his readers and listerners. 

[howshap]

One "were" too many in the last line.  A consequence of editorial pentimento.

[bellamarie]

PatH.,

I can't help thinking of it as a boy's  ______ing contest that got out of hand.

I have to laugh out loud because I used this same reference to Apollo and Cupid's ridiculous fight that also got out of hand.  I fully understand Ginny's Latin version does not show what Mandelbaum's and the others do, and with that I pointed out we will take from what our translations and the majority says and so there really is not right or wrong.  I did not see Epaphus crossing a line because Phaethon had threw the first insult, where lineage was concerned by stating,  "claimed that he was better born than Epaphus"

This is my last comment on this topic because I seem to be repeating myself over and over again.  And am agreeing to disagree.   

Now, let's move on to the interesting comment Jonathan has posted: 

She did lie to him and she did send him to his death. Miraculous conception indeed! And of course the sun god would like to believe that he fathered everything that lives.

I am not at all familiar with the lineages, so did Clymene lie to Phaethon that Phoebus is his father?  Is it at all possible Epaphus knew about the truth and so he revealed it to smug Phaethon?  I asked earlier if Phaethon could have known about Epaphus being born of rape, and was boasting he came from a better lineage.  So, now is Ovid revealing the truth of Phaethon's birth?  I feel like Jonathan has opened up Pandora's box!!  Do tell???  I guess I am on a search until Jonathan or someone else can help me better understand this post.

[bellamarie]

howshap,  ALL good points you have brought up!

Again, females are being transformed due to a male god's pride and transgressions.  Why on earth were the three sisters Phaethusa, Lampetia and (unnamed) Phoibe turned into poplar trees for weeping for their brother Phaethon?  And then when Cycnus weeps alongside the three sisters he is turned into a swan.

Is there some sort of message here that deep affection and sorrow is not tolerated?  Even Phoebus loving Phaethon so much to not tell him no to the chariot ends in death. 

[PatH]

I don't see where Clymene has lied to Phaethon.  She says he is Phoebus' son, and Phoebus acknowledges it:

                   You are worthy
to be called my own, and Clymene did tell you
Your true origin.

Lombardo

[JoanK]

JONATHAN: "What an unbelievable galactic journey. What a poet! What an age!"

I agree. We may deplore attitudes toward women (and forget that it was not just the Greeks and Romans, but every civilization that we know of from that time). But there is something universal in these tales. Phaeton's journey, his mothers tears resonate through the ages.

HOWSHAP: quotes "Your lot is mortal; What you ask for is not." I think that is the crux. Is this hubris again: a mortal thinking he is as good as a god? here is where it crosses over from a  ----ing contest which might have resulted in Phaeton's death if it got out of hand, to something that not only causes his death but widespread death and destruction.

[JoanK]

HOWSHAP: love your use of editorial pentimento above.  I had to look it up.

"A pentimento (plural pentimenti) is an alteration in a painting, evidenced by traces of previous work, showing that the artist has changed his or her mind"

I'm sure I have had many editorial pentimenti.

BELLAMARIE: yes, we have an instance here of how important translation is, and how a different translation can change our whole perception of a scene. Scary, isn't it.

[bellamarie]

Another thought came to my mind.....Phoebus gave into Phaethon's wish, knowing he not only could not handle that chariot which puts him in harm's way, but it also puts everyone and everything in harm's way. 

Mother Earth is begging for Jove to intercede:

And mother Earth
around whom all the waters crowded close
(the waters of the sea and the parched springs
that on all sides were seeking some asylum
within her darkest innards), raised her face__
scorched to the neck__and, wearily, at last
lifted her hand up to her brow and shuddered,
shaking all things; and when she's settled back
(a little lower than she'd been before),
her words were stifled as she begged:  "Great lord
of all the gods, if I indeed deserve
this fate, and it's decreed, do not delay
your thunderbolts!  If I am meant to face
a death by fire,let it be your flames
that strike me down__for that would mitigate
my ruin.  Even speech is hard for me__
just opening my lips" (a gust of smoke
has almost choked her).   

She goes on to plead and then:

Here Earth fell silent__and, in any case,
she could no longer stand the savage flames,
nor utter other words.  And she withdrew
into herself__into her deepest caves,
recess closest to the land of Shades.

The the Almighty Father, calling on
the gods as witnesses (and above all,
on Phoebus, who had lent that chariot),
declares that if he does not intervene,
all things will face a dread catastrophe.
He climbs to heaven's highest point, the place
from which he sends his cloud banks down to earth,
from which he moves his thunder and deploys
his bolts of lightning.  But he does not bring
his clouds, his downpours: thunder serves his cause;
and after balancing a lightning bolt
in his right hand, from his ear's height he throws
that shaft at Phaethon; and it hurls him out
of both his chariot and his life; 

 
Phoebus the father, did not take into accountability of his own responsibility for everything and everyone when he so carelessly gave into his selfish, demanding son's wish.  A lesson we can all learn from.

PatH., 

I don't see where Clymene has lied to Phaethon.  She says he is Phoebus' son, and Phoebus acknowledges it:

                   You are worthy
to be called my own, and Clymene did tell you
Your true origin.

Lombardo

I did not see Clymene as not telling the truth to Phaethon either, but I am waiting to see if Jonathan can give some clarity in his comment.  I have been searching and can not find anything that proves Phoebus was not Phaethon's father.  Now, possibly, Clymene could have prevented the entire thing from happening by telling Phaethon of course he is your father and let it be.  But Phaethon was digging his heels in, he was acting prideful, immature and allowed Epaphus plant doubt, rather than stand up to Epaphus.  But then if he had we would never have the story of the chariot ride and death of Phaethon.

Isn't it a bit ironic that Jove the father of Epaphus, is the one who saves Earth, and yet destroys Phaethon?  Seems everything came full circle.   

[JoanK]

BELLAMARIE: "Why on earth were the three sisters ... turned into poplar trees for weeping for their brother Phaethon?"

I'm still not clear whether being turned into a tree was considered a punishment or an honor. it was a relief from suffering and a kind of immortality (yes trees die, but I have the feeling that all such trees are considered to have the original spirit in them). Ovid seems to share that confusion: at one point (if I remember correctly) he says that Io's father doesn't know whether to congratulate or commiserate with Daphne's father.

[bellamarie]

JoanK.,   

BELLAMARIE: yes, we have an instance here of how important translation is, and how a different translation can change our whole perception of a scene. Scary, isn't it.

When we decide to use different translations, and some are not available to all of us to compare, it does indeed make it confusing, questioning and scary, to see how we can disagree so strongly on something, due to the translator changing around some words, that can give a different outlook on the scene taking place.  I must admit every site I have referenced on this particular scene every one of them have agreed it was Phaethon's boastfulness throwing the first insult that began the ----ing contest, leading to his own demise.   

JoanK., 

HOWSHAP: quotes "Your lot is mortal; What you ask for is not." I think that is the crux. Is this hubris again: a mortal thinking he is as good as a god? here is where it crosses over from a  ----ing contest to something that not only causes Phaeton's death but major death and destruction.

Yes, it sure did go way beyond a tit for tat, or ----ing contest.  At this point a more mature, clearer thinking head should have prevailed, but Phoebus could not stand up to his son, even to save his life.

Thanks JoanK., for pointing out the possibility, it could have been out of honor or compassion, the sisters and Cycnus were transformed.  Seems these gods have a way of getting people out of the most stressful situations by transforming them.   

[bellamarie]

Jonathan were you being hubris?  I'm awaiting your return.  Don't make me send the gods for you. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Joan - Why Trees - maybe because all the stars and waters were taken??!!?? Considering the average lifespan I bet trees lived longer than most men...

[BarbStAubrey]

Tragedy - the main character is brought to ruin or suffers extreme sorrow, especially as a consequence of a tragic flaw, moral weakness or inability to cope with unfavorable circumstances. A disastrous event, especially one involving distressing loss or injury to life: that invokes an accompanying catharsis or pleasure in audiences.

It appears we have a myth that is a Tragedy...

[ginny]

Ginny's Latin version does not show what Mandelbaum's and the others do

What others? Where do you see anybody BUT Mandlebaum talking about Phaethon saying he was better than Epaphus?  Not in this discussion. In fact  they are all saying, including mine, the same thing. Mandlebaum is the odd man out.


Let me take time I don't have to  tell you what you should have seen.  I will try to be VERY  clear.

1. You should have seen a literal translation of the very Latin words. Looks awkward? Looks stilted? That's the LITERAL. Literal means "by the letter." THAT is what the passage says?


That is what Ovid said. Unpolished.  Untranslated. Unimbellished. Apparently we're not aware of the translator's vast art, how HE takes it and HE embellishes it into a polished piece?


2. Can you not appreciate from seeing the literal how creative some of these translators are?

The Latin (that would be OVID) does not say Phaethon said he was better than Epaphus, for Pete's sake. It does not say it. I don't care what Mandlebaum said, it's not THERE. He has made that up.

Lombardo doesn't say it. (Because it's not there) Miller doesn't say it (Because it's not there) Kline doesn't say it, (because it's not there). Martin doesn't say it (because it's not there).

Those are accurate translations. Mandlebaum's is not.

It's not THERE!

Ovid did NOT say that.

And because OVID did not say it,  it is not there.  Period.