Author Topic: Ovid's Metamorphoses  (Read 126921 times)

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #680 on: February 27, 2016, 06:07:11 PM »



The Fall of Phaethon by Sebastiano Ricci, 1703-04, Belluno



---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088---Translated by  A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...


---http://classics.mit.edu         /Ovid/metam.html...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al


----    http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html----Translated by Brookes More




Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm

-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm




For Your Consideration:

“Week” Four: Phaethon!

Bk I:747-764 Phaethon’s parentage
Bk I:765-779 Phaethon sets out for the Palace of the Sun
Bk II:1-30 The Palace of the Sun
Bk II:31-48 Phaethon and his father

What Do You Think?

1. Are there any themes which appear in the beginning of the Phaethon story while it's still in Book I which could happen today?

2. Why is Clymene angry?

3. Ovid's description of the Palace of the Sun God is considered an ekphrasis (or ecphrasis)  a long detailed description which stands as a symbol or allegory for something else. What do you think it might stand for?

4. We in 2016 do a lot of things better than past ages. But what do they do better? the sense of wonder? Have we seen too many beautiful palaces in bad movies to be able to see them any more? (Joan K)

5. How many Universal themes can we see in the story of Phaethon which are alive and well today?

6. According to W.S. Anderson the Phaethon story contains is a "folktale motif of the 'fatal gift.'"  Who do you fault most in the giving of this gift, Apollo who sees all or Phaethon? If Apollo is all seeing and all knowing and is the god of prophesy on top of it,  how do you explain his mistake in giving the chariot?




Former Questions, Still up for  Grabs:


1. What to  you is the saddest thing in the Io story?

2. This story is full of beautiful descriptions. Which lines particularly struck you? Do they interfere with the plot line?

3. What effect do the flashback elements and the interruption of the Pan and Syrinx have on the reader's feelings for Io?

4. What would you say is the tone of the Io story?

5. This is quite a story, it has two metamorphoses and two aetiological myths in it. Which one is the most important?

6. What might Io's struggles to communicate symbolize in our own time?

7. Who actually has the last word in this section?

8. What's your impression of Io's father?

9. If you had to choose between being Io or Daphne, which one would you choose? Why?

Discussion Leaders: PatH and ginny


Thank you, Barbara.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #681 on: February 27, 2016, 06:08:31 PM »
I remember being in an ancient history class at least 25 to 30 years ago, reading about the year 500 AD and after - it was believed the sky was as if a bowl and when it rained it was thought it sprang a leak so that heavy rain was very frightening when believing the bowl was leaking -  lightening they saw as the bowl cracking. If the bowl broke there would be a deluge that would be as we have feared a nuclear disaster wiping us off the face of the map. I remember the discussion than being how the Noah flood fit or created that belief.

Could be an herb but for sure mud - many archaeologists accounts talk about indigenous people coating themselves with mud and clay, some of it white - which protected them from the sun.   
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #682 on: February 28, 2016, 10:23:13 AM »
Jonathan: And the stories get even better, say you?

Oh heavens, yes. Why is the white flower of spring called a narcissus? Why does an echo only answer?   Why do we have seasons? Why is the mulberry red when ripe?  Why are the sands of Sardis gold? Who is the Weeping Rock in Turkey? What is a Niobid painter?  What was so bad about Medea?

There's a whole world here if we want to go on and we can pick and choose what we'd like, we need not read all 15 books if you are all interested to go on a bit, we can vote on the selections?


And he did come to a terrible end. But I see it more as a farce following all that bragging and boasting by two young men about their heavenly fathers. That set the tone for the rest of the story.

There were many versions of the Phaethon story before Ovid's. That's an interesting point. Wonder why he put that in here?  Not all the versions are like this one.

First off there is Lucifer, the morning star.   I can't see the word Lucifer (which means literally "light bringing,") without thinking of the biography of Custer a few years ago titled Son of the Morning Star. Have any of you read it?

Maybe it was Cicero, and that's why he's so scowly). Well he divorced his long term wife and  took on a trophy wife in his old age and it didn't work out,  so maybe he had more to scowl about than trying to  lead Rome. hahahaa  He's still standing in front of the Hall of Justice, tho,  in Rome, today:   The great Hall is sinking under its own weight.

Could be an herb but for sure mud -   Anderson addresses this  putting on of medicamine thus: "This word, which Cicero used once in a speech, became poetic after Ovid, who employed it eighteen times, even in the title  of one of his works. Here, he refers to some salve that would make the boy immune to the heat of the sun.  In earlier literature, we hear of mortals being anointed with ambrosia, but that is to render them immortal."

Way back there some of us were talking about the death of Phaethon. I think Howard mentioned Cygnus.

I was shocked myself at Jupiter's thunderbolt. Was there no other way to stop Phaethon  but kill him? That seems a bit extreme to me. What does that say about Jupiter and why did Ovid put this in here?

It's interesting to see what of the Phaethon story is Ovid's, and what came before. I'd like to come back to Cygnus. But I thought you might like to see how many others handled this story of Phaethon and how it differed:

This is from W.S. Anderson:


So this treatment of Phaethon  is pure Ovid, apparently. We need to ask what we get out of his deliberate changes.




BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #683 on: February 28, 2016, 01:48:19 PM »
What Helios gives, Zeus takes... could it be another example of tit for tat - this time among the gods - who is top dog

Talk about Chaos as in creating the unexpected - disorder - confusion - behavior so unpredictable as to appear random - that seems to be the label for these gods. If they are not turning someone into a cow they are having them fall from the sky to their death or flooding the known world wiping out most of humanity - sheesh... I guess like Dowager Countess of Grantham states, "Sometimes it's good to rule by fear."

They sure fit your thought on thunderbolts Joan - angry gods and the fear in Rome of thunder. I do not think we have yet read of a loving act by any of these gods - no, 'bring me the children', among this lot. 

I can see a case now for the Stoics so early in the history of humankind - if there is no personal control over emotions and there is the tiny god called cupid seemingly indiscriminately darting folks, about the only thing left is to be unmoved by impulse, rationally considering each action with the mantra,  "Whatever happens will happen".

With these gods the Stoics make perfect sense - that man's problem is - he resists the unavoidable outcomes of fate, does not recognize the inherent good in it, and possesses interests contrary to it.

Ha I guess I am a Stoic and did not realize it - because the idea of expecting another behavior from these gods never crossed my mind - I've been so busy attempting to find the good or at least the rational.     
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanK

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #684 on: February 28, 2016, 05:31:48 PM »
I just noticed question 3. the description of the Palace of the Sun is an allegory for something else? No idea! It does seem to look as if they think the sun is responsible for time, with all those hours and seasons.

What do the rest of you think?

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #685 on: February 29, 2016, 08:56:21 AM »
Well personally I see the theme of Augustus and Ovid's digs at him running throughout the whole so far. Augustus has restored order like a god,  (kind of reminds you of Cassius's line in Shakespeare's Julius Caesar: "why man, he doth bestride the world like a Colossus..." ).   But that was Julius Caesar. In Augustus's case, the restoration to order is  fragile, he keeps reminding  us it's fragile, and liable to fail, (especially in the hands of an heir of Augustus). And  in the fall of Phaethon it really almost did create permanent  Chaos again.

It's funny I don't see any struggle for power here. Jupiter is it. There IS no struggle, all the gods know their places, he's it, the pantheon of gods are afraid to stand against him, just like the Senate was against  Augustus:  yes men, all. The  ancient reader would have known this,  too. However  THIS Jupiter is  fearsome perhaps because of his lack of judgment whereas in Greek mythology he's the great judge and a bit more temperate, affairs aside, that's something the male ordered Roman society would have understood and probably not condemned.

But boy does he fly off the handle here, destroying an entire world because one man dissed him at dinner, without trying to see if there were any who were worth saving. And here he comes again.

And here the scorched earth appeals to him, I liked her reasoning in Lombardo. If you don't care about me, the earth, after all I've done, bring out the lightning bolts, but what has your brother Neptune, god of the sea,  done to deserve this? And think of your own residence, it's smoking, did you not consider that? That this could touch YOU? Take heed! You're about to burn your own mansions  to cinders.

So it looks to me as if Jupiter is more moved by the possibility of its hurting him than anything else.

The descriptions here of the effects of Phaethon are absolutely stunning.

As you read them, which one is your favorite, which description? Can  you share some of the lines here?

There have been some wonderful works of art on this  as the constellations burn, I have two I'd like to share once the Latin classes get going this morning, they are staggeringly fine.

I love this bit.  As a further aside, do you know anything about driving horses? My blacksmith told me years ago that  it was much more dangerous than riding. He had given up riding because he felt his balance was not reliable,  but in driving, forget the old Westerns where the driver jumps down on the yoke of the run away horses and works his way forward?

That's a cowboy movie. In real life usually death results if the horses get their heads. If you've ever been ON a runaway horse you know what happens, they are unstoppable. Hauling on the reins does not work. Turning them in a circle does not only not work, it can turn the horse over. Very very dangerous. One wonders again why the father agreed to "anything." as a gift.  Neither father nor son considered the consequences in this great moment of emotion?

What are your thoughts this  dramatic morning with run away horses and flames everywhere?

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #686 on: February 29, 2016, 12:11:30 PM »
Just can't resist stealing a second to come back in here and say that with all of the art over centuries about Phaethon I have three pieces I really like and here are two of them.

These both depict the fall of Phaethon and the coming to life of the constellations as Ovid described  into their figurative beings, which itself is remarkable.

The first is by John Singer Sargent:

Isn't that a beautiful thing?  Here you can clearly see the different ones, how many can you identify?

And the second is by Gustave Moreau:



I have a big poster of the Moreau I like to put up in face to face classes but the students are usually appalled, they hate it: what IS that they say? This one is a little harder to see the figures.

I like them both, particularly the Sargent (I can never figure out how to spell his name Sargeant or Sargent).

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #687 on: February 29, 2016, 12:53:21 PM »
 Haven't been around for a few days.  This is such a good discussion, and I have lots to say, but a family flap has been keeping me away from the computer

Frybabe, see if your library has Lombardo--his good poetry might hook you.

Bellamarie, I enjoyed talking to you here. See you in another discussion.

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #688 on: February 29, 2016, 03:43:07 PM »
Those are gorgeous paintings, Ginny.  In the Sargeant, at the top left on the edge of the road, you can see part of Libra, the scales of justice.  Those round things are the pans of the scales.  Then comes Scorpio, the scorpion; he's almost caught Pheathon's foot in a claw.  Then Sagittarius, the archer.  He's a man here; he's usually a centaur.  Finally, Capricorn, the goat.

The Moreau starts with Leo the lion (that's me) then Virgo, the virgin, who is also Astraea, the goddess of justice who fled the earth in the Iron Age.  Libra is the next Zodiac constellation, but instead we have a splendid dragon, probably Draco.

Frybabe

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #689 on: February 29, 2016, 04:27:25 PM »
They have one translated by somebody named Melville.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #690 on: February 29, 2016, 04:32:40 PM »
Curious and curiouser - ever since back a couple of days ago when Frybabe mentioned Zoroastrians I knew something about them but had no idea how far back in time they go - about 5000 years before Ovid - and their influence on all monolithic religions is amazing.

It was the Prophet Zoroaster who came up with night and day representing dualism with light being good and dark denoting evil. Zoroastrianism includes a battle between good and evil.

This is a bit deep but the influence of Zoroastrianism on Greek philosophers is astounding -
http://zoroastrianheritage.blogspot.com/2011/04/zoroastrian-influence-on-greek.html

And get this - the Olympic flame is straight out of Zoroastrian's religion - fabulous photos included in this site.
http://heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/olympicflame/index.htm

These quoted from the site caught my attention: "The symbolism of the eternal flame in Zoroastrianism can be compared to the symbolism of the Olympic flame - it symbolizes core ethical values and principles"... "The ancient Olympic games honoured the chief of the Olympian gods Zeus, who had a temple dedicated to him at Olympia. Fires were lit at his temple as well as the temple dedicated to his wife and sister, Hera.

An ever-burning fire used to burn at the altar of hestia, the goddess and guardian of fire, whose temple was also located in Olympia.

The fire altars of Zeus and Hera were open air altars while the fire altar of Hestia was indoors in a Prytaneum. The Prytaneum was also used for the large banquets held in honour of the athletes at the end of the games."


And another jaw dropper - I sorta remember this from my grade school days but with all the hoopla surrounding Christmas and 3 Kings Day cake I forgot - Early Christian writers said the Magi were Zoroastrian priests (see Catholic Bible). Not a single early Church writer calls the Magi "kings". 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #691 on: February 29, 2016, 04:41:24 PM »
Wow and here is a gold mine of online books by a Professor from Durham University in the UK who specializes in ancient history

https://www.academia.edu/202379/Persian_Cosmos_and_Greek_Philosophy_Platos_Associates_and_the_Zoroastrian_Magoi.

And his site has book after book that can be downloaded...
https://durham.academia.edu/phorky
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #692 on: February 29, 2016, 09:37:01 PM »
Pat, you've got a sharp eye! It's quite hard for me to see anything in the Moreau! :)

Barbara, it's amazing, isn't it, the things that turn up in a discussion, like a Pandora's Box!

I was really taken with the path the father describes he has to run and the difficulties of it. Then the pitiful father tries to scare Phaethon with a description of what might happen and does with the sky. Phaethon is not listening and actually jumps into the chariot.

Apparently Ovid is saying that the the rotation of the sky  pulls on the sun and the stars, and the Sun god has to go against that. .  I don't know enough about the science involved here but it sounds like it's quite an arduous task.  I have a feeling it would be meaningful to know but I don't.   But Phaethon is ready to go. What a sad commentary on youth and age. The young boy is not listening to the one person who can do this task, even Jupiter can't do it.

The string of disasters is incredible.  The metamorphoses are all over the place. Was there one that resounded with  you? The Latin is mirroring the chaos, it's all over the place, too. I was struck by the Nile going dry and retreating to hide its source. That was not found  till the 19th century according to Anderson, was Ovid saying the Nile flows backwards?

And so Jupiter hurls a thunderbolt and breaks up the chariot and Phaethon falls, aflame, through the air to the earth, leaving a trail, it  sounds like he has become  a comet. Clymene doesn't get to  bury her son as she should, so she wanders, looking for him, finally finding the bones,  and we have the last Metamorphoses of this section, the mourning  sisters turning into trees and the amber, and Cygnus.  Trees again. With Daphne they were protection, what are they now? I don't "get" the reason for these two last metamorphoses, any ideas?

What sense does it make to have these last two metamorphoses?  I was struck by Howard's thoughts way back there on this:

Once again, Ovid describes a god made in mankind's image.

Now THAT is an interesting thought!



Ovid speaks movingly of  the grief of Phaeton's mother, but,  mocks the mourning  of his  sisters, the Heliades, who though they lament no less than their mother,  give  “tears and other useless tributes to the dead..., calling pitifully/Day and night on Phaethon, who would never hear them,....Is this just a manifestation of cold-hearted Stoicism?  Then the sisters' mourning results, strangely, in another metamorphosis, when they are sealed into trees that drip amber “To be be worn one day by the brides of  Rome.”

Equally strange is the fate of Phaethon's cousin, Cygnus, who, while mourning is turned into a swan at the site of the poplars that were Phaethon's weeping sisters.  Sad story, but one struggles to find the motivation for it.  Perhaps Ovid recited the tales of the Heliades and Cygnus for no other reason than that they were metamorphoses were already known to his readers and listeners. 


I agree and that's the best idea I've heard so far. Anybody else  think of something? We're so used to morals at the end of tales, when we don't have one (or do we?) we founder.

And Jonathan is seeing humor. That's really interesting, because he's usually right.

Joan K and Frybabe are thinking about  our own earth and what might happen if a comet hit it.  Howard mentions the eruption of a volcano, which is certainly present.  We've got chaos again.

So is there a moral here? A lesson?

What did you think of the Sun's speech? Who is he blaming for this disaster? Who should he blame? What does he seem to think about Jupiter's actions?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #693 on: February 29, 2016, 11:49:33 PM »
We may be seeing the words and thinking they are a story because we do not know the references - seems the Greeks and the Romans used Swans to signify a Happy Death -

Poplars were the symbol for Sabazius worshiped in Athens in the 5th Century BC - worshiping ritual included the god's annual death in the grain fields, with the participants of this ritual weeping for him.

The snake was an important Sabazius symbol and he wore a crown with two snakes raising their heads. Music was part of the ritual particularly the flute and castanets that accompanied exotic dancers. 

The cult of Sabazius flourished in Athens even during the Roman period and was later introduced into Rome and further into Europe.

So we have dead sisters whose tears turn to amber, that nearby is the swan which indicates a Happy Death - they become Poplar trees, symbol for the god of grain fields and the trees weep for the annual death of the grain fields.

Evidently when the Ethiopians tell this tale Phaeton fell into the legendary river Eridanus thought to be the river Po located near the end of the Amber trail. According to the Ethiopians, he was found by the river nymphs after he was scorched black - the river nymphs mourn him and bury him whose tears also turn to amber found at the base of the river and evidently the river nymphs have his children which explains the black skin of Ethiopians.

Since this is all about gods I can only imagine these stories as pie in the sky explanations for the world during the time of Ovid before science, archaeology etc. explained what were the mysteries of the universe. Story tellers probably started these tales as a way to settle or teach or bring magical entertainment in the tents or caves or traveler's oasis just as Clement Clark Moore told his magical tale.

Today we know that reindeer live north and are not as magical as unicorns nor beast of burdens like oxen however they do fly and we buy it - about the only change that needs some explaining is wearing a cap and kerchief to bed. The concept of fireplace heat not being similar to whole house furnace heat, the idea of wearing caps and kerchiefs would not cross our minds - and so I wonder how many references known to the people over 2000 years ago are lost on us.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #694 on: March 01, 2016, 09:47:54 AM »
I imagine quite a few are lost on us, that's the joy and value of a book club.  Thank you for that thought.

seems the Greeks and the Romans used Swans to signify a Happy Death

I didn't know this, do you have a  Roman source for this? I  am not thinking Phaethon's is a happy death by any standards. The Greeks and Romans were very big on the proper burial of a person, and it seems Jupiter even almost  kept his mother from burying him with due obsequies.  She did right by him, the best she could, his father sulked and did not participate.  Took it out on the horses.  Had she not found him, that  would essentially have condemned his soul or shade  to a very unhappy afterlife. 

Anderson does allow "Ovid likes to attribute memory of some traumatic event that continues form human form into animal form. "  That makes sense with the tremendous instances of that in the Metamorphoses, which is, after all, about change.

Why, I wonder, could Phaethon not become a star? A real star? Because he sinned or did the wrong thing?  Jupiter doesn't seem to care. But there's one line in Lombardo which makes me think that perhaps he knew he was wrong:

line 438:

                                         Jupiter himself
Fashions excuses for the lightning discharge,
And adds to hi prayers a few royal threats.

This is where the Sun god doesn't want to drive the chariot any more, read: Jupiter's life will be affected, ergo he's doing what we see here.

The squabbling, narcissistic gods are in charge. Poor mortal man tries but apparently there's nothing HE can do. Is this how you're reading this portrayal of the Roman gods?

We've already seen how many things are symbolized in the constellations and he's about to  put a lot more people in the sky.

I found a great thing in the Wall Street Journal Magazine today in quite an interesting article on Secrets. Each month the WSJ asks noted people about one subject apparently and the current topic is Secrets, so they asked Dr. Phil McGraw, Susan Lucci, Kitty Kelley and more  on Secrets.. Kitty Kelley and Phil McGraw were interesting, but the one I found most interesting was Zack Snyder.

Quote
“I really believe that comics are our modern mythology. We deal with a lot of our issues through these characters the way the ancients explained volcanoes or earthquakes by inventing gods. The emotional earthquakes and volcanoes of our time are inexplicable, so we use these characters to comfort ourselves. I’ve directed a few films adapted from comics and graphic novels. Secrets and secret identities play a big role. They take on this kind of metaphorical significance and speak to the larger secrets the reader is keeping. Both in real life and in comics, an individual has a picture that they want to present to the world, a picture of who they are. Most of the time that picture is not completely authentic. Bruce Wayne is the mask, not Batman. Even if you dress up in drag, the armor is the real you.”

—Snyder is a director. His film Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice is out this month.

From: http://www.wsj.com/articles/dr-phil-mcgraw-susan-lucci-and-more-on-secrets-1454428491

That seems to speak to what several of you have said here about natural phenomena.

I like that. I like anything which seems to bring the ancients to live in our own world because they are here anyway, as Barbara said, we just don't realize it.




BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #695 on: March 01, 2016, 10:27:12 AM »
Just a quicky today - I am a judge at the polls from noon on - yes, referred to the Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols by J.C. Cooper

I think the happy death aspect is the difference between how we would categorize what happened as compared to how it was to be interpreted - and even when you think of it the word Happy can be diced and sliced - what is Happy - if there is a purpose or an after benefit that could be considered by some as happy -

Somehow to look at what happened and see the benefit is what I get out of the symbolism to the swan and to the tears - I think also that if we impose human feelings and human pain to the story we are taking the "god" element that there is a greater story than our concern for pain.

Even if these gods were as if humans - then it would be a pretty horrible story of human carnage - are we all that depraved to pass along for thousands of years a story describing an unseemly death - it would be a bit wild to consider a story where people turn into trees and tears turn into amber and the sun was really driven across the sky by a chariot as affecting our sensibilities - so that I just cannot see that these stories are to have human pain and feelings or even human desires attached - seems odd so what could the story be saying - I am not sure - the only thought I have is, it does give a picture to what several thousand years ago was the explainable - it all sounds like something we would see on an episode of Dr. Who

OK gotta run and since I will not be finished till after 8: (after the polls close we have to break down all the equipment and pack it for pickup and get all the paper work copied into various envelopes and deliver the whole batch across town I will be zonked tomorrow and nap off and on most of the day.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #696 on: March 01, 2016, 11:04:47 AM »
Thank you. Have fun at the polls, I used to  be a Poll Manager  and would come home wiped.  This one might be exciting tho.

I see his reference to swans:

"Graeco-Roman: A form of Zeus/ Jupiter as Leda’s swan; amorousness; sacred to Aphrodite/ Venus, also to Apollo as solar. A happy death."


That last little phrase might need a few more citations before it can be accepted as fact, there don't seem to be any there, no instances of that "happy death"  happening.

On this:  so that I just cannot see that these stories are to have human pain and feelings or even human desires attached -   A VERY good point!

The entire time we've been reading Ovid here the commentators  who analyze the text  have been talking about, particularly Anderson, the way that Ovid has manipulated the reader into denying any feelings for the people in this story which  you ordinarily, any human being,  would.

We haven't talked about this or mentioned how he does it. I did ask way back there why he's chosen to put a certain scene in,  to interrupt, I think it was in the Io story, to interrupt the pathos of Io with the story of Pan, but it went by the wayside.

In fact Ovid himself by his art and his dexterity, especially in the Latin is seeing to it that, as Anderson puts it, "the pathos of Phaethon" is interrupted and diffused. Ovid is deliberately making sure we don't identify or get emotional about any of the characters we normally might, by several means.

 He's BEEN doing this throughout the entire piece,  he's been switching the focus of the piece, or when emotions might threaten us, he makes a joke, floods the piece with irony...Jonathan has picked up on the comic bits, the ridiculousness,  he distracts us, by subject, by throwing in dazzling scenes, from feeling any strong emotion for any of these poor people.

Even the burial of Phaethon, the grief of the mother and sisters is interrupted by the sisters turning into trees for Pete's sake,  and this  Cygnus coming out of the blue, turning into a swan and the father sulking and refusing to  drive the chariot. He forces the reader to focus his attention  elsewhere.

HE'S doing it. Looks like it worked. And the Latin is even more pointed, you can't concentrate on any of the emotions or feel anything close for any of them because of the Latin,  which is almost literally turning cartwheels:  shape shifting and all consuming in interest.

Why have these myths lasted, then? What a wonderful question, Barbara.

Why HAVE they, do  you all think?  The Question of the Year!  Well asked. What do you all think?



ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #697 on: March 01, 2016, 11:32:33 AM »
Somebody way back there asked who is Melville as a translator?

A.D. Melville seems to be the translator of choice for the scholars who are commenting on the Metamorphoses. I didn't have  a Melville but I see it's only 5 dollars, shipping free, on Amazon, so I thought I'd take the plunge. It will be interesting to see what he says, how he says it and if it's any different. We have seen that translators can make a lot of difference. It should be here Thursday (love that Prime!)

JoanK

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #698 on: March 01, 2016, 05:05:55 PM »
GINNY:"The squabbling, narcissistic gods are in charge. ....Is this how you're reading this portrayal of the Roman gods?"

The portrayal of the Roman gods makes no sense to me: one minute they are all-powerful, all-seeing; the next as stupid and petty as any human.

GINNY again: "Ovid is deliberately making sure we don't identify or get emotional about any of the characters we normally might, by several means."

I hadn't noticed before, but of course you're right. Why? Perhaps the characters in these stories are not actually thought of as people, but as symbols. Or perhaps just as means to the end of explaining why things are the way they are. There are some modern writers that write that way, and I can never really understand them.

There may be a whole way of thinking here I'm not grasping. I've always wondered how the Greeks and Romans could believe in and worship gods that were so petty, mean and sometimes stupid. We assume that our God is better than we are. they seem to assume that the life of the gods is just like human life except they have more power and don't have to worry about death and getting food and shelter. Only about managing those pesky humans.

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #699 on: March 01, 2016, 08:27:03 PM »
Ginny:
Quote
Why, I wonder, could Phaethon not become a star?

I don't know why the myth didn't turn him into a star, and of course Ovid couldn't tinker with the myth that much, but now that I know the myth, in my mind he has turned into a star.

In a wonderful passage, Phaethon plunges down, his flaming red hair leaving a trail like a meteor, arcing to land in the river Eridanus, where his fire is quenched.  Eridanus is a constellation, meant to represent Phaethon's river.  If you've ever seen Orion, you've seen it without realizing it, because it's an inconspicuous trickle of stars, starting at Orion's knee and winding southward, hard to figure out, even with star maps.  But the last, southernmost star of the string is Achernar, one of the ten brightest stars in the sky.  It's too far south to see from most of the continental US, but two years ago I saw it in Hawaii, brilliant and gleaming.  If I ever see it again, I'll know I'm looking at Phaethon, glowing fiercely as he lands in the river, about to be quenched.

JoanK

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #700 on: March 01, 2016, 09:44:14 PM »
I agree. Ub our mind at least, Phaethon has his star.

Frybabe

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #701 on: March 02, 2016, 07:06:07 AM »
More on Achernar.

http://earthsky.org/brightest-stars/bright-achernar-ends-the-southern-river


Flatest star known? Why? Found this answer on Space.com
http://www.space.com/23570-achernar.html

BTW: Epsilon Eridani, also in the Eridanus constellation, is one of the most featured systems in Science Fiction. It is also the one where they found the Jupiter sized planet back in 2000. If I remember correctly, it was the first exo-planet discovered.

JoanK

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #702 on: March 02, 2016, 02:36:30 PM »
Hmmm. How can we fit an exoplanet into the Myths? A woman and her child turned into a star and planet?

Frybabe

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #703 on: March 02, 2016, 05:34:57 PM »
I am going to have to see if I can follow the river from Rigel, which is very bright and I can see it (an Orion) right in front of my house around 7 or 8 PM. Lately, I like looking out the window at Orion and planet spotting from upstairs front window. I can see even more stars if I go outside. My house faces South.

Well, back to more reading.

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #704 on: March 03, 2016, 09:48:15 AM »
Interesting on all the astronomical things, I didn't know anything about those, how fascinating, Pat and Frybabe!  More rivers in the sky to go with Ovid's milky way road to the gods. Love it.

Super  points, also Joan K, :I hadn't noticed before, but of course you're right. Why? Perhaps the characters in these stories are not actually thought of as people, but as symbols. Or perhaps just as means to the end of explaining why things are the way they are. There are some modern writers that write that way, and I can never really understand them.

Why he's portrayed these events as he has, has been the focus of debate for centuries.  Everybody seems to have a theory. I'm not well versed enough in Ovidian theory to offer one but it does seem to me at a very minimum  that most mortals are mere playthings of the whims of the  gods.  And they need to be respectful.   Man is not in control.

Back then I wonder tho how much surety there was in anything.  In one of the Latin classes we just read about Aeneas in the Underworld, taken down by the Sybil and the Golden Bough. Here was the famous prophetic passage of Vergil's Aeneid, where Aeneas sees shades or ghosts drinking in the river of forgetfulness. Here Anchises, Aeneas's father,  explains to  Aeneas that they are the souls who will reincarnate as Augustus,  and famous generals, et. al, and lead Rome to greatness.

Other Eastern religions offered a type of resurrection, such as  Isis, but it wasn't a personal relationship with a personal god such as we would expect.

By the time  of Ovid, the Greeks had long since (from about 500 B.C. onwards) ceased to feel that the pantheon of gods was viable in their lives. When the Romans took it over it was a business type relationship.   As said earlier, there were no scriptures for the Romans, there were only traditions of worship and they were adhered to  scrupulously even tho some of the gods were long forgotten. It was the ritual. Very much like Wang Lung in Pearl  Buck's The Good Earth. That's why the death of Phaethon is so shocking in many ways and would have been to the reader. Note tho that Clymene  did manage to say the correct words which is more than the Sun god did. He's a mess.

To me, of all the characters here HE'S the most anachronistic. He's doing emotions we could understand, she's doing what the ancients expected.  The sisters, however, to cut the sadness,  are becoming trees and this hitherto unknown  Cygnus, one of many in mythology, such a close friend of Phaethon,  turns into a swan. So we have our metamorphoses, after all, almost tacked on.   We really ought to try to keep a look at who  DOES get placed as a planet or star, it's Jupiter who does the placing apparently and apparently he was no fan of Phaethon. I guessin that thunderbolt he was just being  Jupiter as Jupiter was thought to be.

Quo vadimus now? Do you want to read another tale, not particularly in order?  We did Book I which is what we set out to do, splendidly.

But there  are some fabulous ones just waiting online. Should we take a look at a couple? Or?



BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #705 on: March 03, 2016, 01:16:55 PM »
Boy we sure wrung out every bit on that story didn't we - the night sky stories were wonderful. I wonder if we being on the edge if we can see this star at the edge of the northern night sky - we are a bit lower than El Paso which is about even with Waco an hour and a half north of Austin.

Prefer to skip the rape stories and I'm ready for the Crow and the Raven including the Crows Story followed by Mercury, Battus and the stolen cattle - need some vibes that are not filled with rape, death and the mean behavior of these gods towards women - enough for awhile...

Isn't there some sort of Celtic or ancient Irish myth about stolen cattle? And the American Indian myths all have a story about a Crow.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanK

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #706 on: March 03, 2016, 05:12:59 PM »
I'm game for another story. who else?

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #707 on: March 03, 2016, 05:41:17 PM »
I'm game! Let's put it to a vote. There are SO many super stories which we will never get to if we keep on in order.

Barbara, thank you for your idea. Could we add your nomination to a slate of votes and see how many we would like to  do? The order doesn't matter and it might be picked first.

I'm going to add to  Barbara's suggestion Ceres and Proserpina, Echo and Narcissus, Baucis and Philemon, maybe Pyramis and Thisbe, that's Babylonian, Atalanta and Hippomones, and Minerva and Arachne.

All GREAT stories and fun to read.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #708 on: March 03, 2016, 06:25:54 PM »
go for it - that is 10 stories - unless the story grabs us why not just spend about 5 days - this month we have Easter so that could be a dead weekend - so that leaves us not counting these first 3 days - 25 days

10 stories have been suggested - if we do 5 a month that is March and April -

Or if we do one a week that is still only mid May - by then we will have had a chance to surf the books. I like Kline for surfing - so that we could browse and choose 4 a month -

Why not see how it goes - we'll want a break mid-summer - so maybe skip the week of July 4 - and frankly I know we said the year but my personal druthers is that I really do not want to be reading Ovid past early to mid November - by then I want some traditional nineteenth or early twentieth century winter read.

Another feature I would love to see added to this discussion is for us to list any books or plays where the premise is taken for the particular Ovid story we are reading.

I am anxious to browse all of Ovid just to see what stories were included and at the same time adding to my knowing of these books. So the idea of us looking for Ovid stories to discuss after mid May appeals to me.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #709 on: March 03, 2016, 06:57:31 PM »
Just popped in to see if this book discussion has been completed.

Barb
Quote
Prefer to skip the rape stories and I'm ready for the Crow and the Raven including the Crows Story followed by Mercury, Battus and the stolen cattle - need some vibes that are not filled with rape, death and the mean behavior of these gods towards women - enough for awhile...

This is partly why I decided to leave the discussion.  The story just continues on with rape, death and mean behavior of theses gods toward women, as you so well pointed out.

Today I began reading The Odyssey,translated by George Herbert Palmer.  I so LOVE Homer!!!  He begins his story with so much respect for women.  To take a quote from the Introduction:

"Odysseus is the central character, a man wise not through the possession of large knowledge (Nestor is that) but through sagacity, resourcefulness, and self-command.  Other men__Telemachus, Eumaeus, Antinous, and Eurymachs__bear important parts.  But the dominant forces of the poem are women.  The prime mover is a goddess."

Ovid seems to be fixated on abuse for the female.  I took my book back to the library today. 

For clarification....temetque temyl was a typo, intended to be "teme que templa" or "templa tenet" which were taken from the Latin pages I had posted. Translated into English means  "which holds temples"

I have to share this insight from the Introduction of The Odyssey as well:

"There are twenty-three English translations of the Odyssey.  Between the earliest of them__the brilliant version of George Chapman, 1615, in five iambics, couplet rhyme__and the year 1861, when Matthew Arnold published this stimulating essays "On Translating Homer,"  a new rendering of the Odyssey appeared about every thirty years.  Since that time the rate of issues has been ten times more rapid.  Among these translations the most important are those of Alexander Pope, 1725, five iambics, couplet rhyme; William Cowper, 1791, five iambics, blank verse; Henry Cary, 1823, prose; P.S. Worsley, 1861, Spenserian stanza; W.C. Bryant, 1872, five iambics, blank verse; S.H. Butcher and A. Lang.  A world's book like the Odyssey cannot be exhausted, nor can any one person completely report it.  It has as many aspects as it has translators.  Hobbes commended it to his readers as a series of lesson in morals; to Worsley it was the world's great fairy tale, to Butcher and Lang it is an archaic "historical document."  Others have found in it a philological interest, a mythological, a grammatical.  However broad minded a student may be, his sympathies are sure to reach a limit somewhere short of the compass of Homer.  I have approached the Odyssey from the philosophic and poetic side, delighting in Homer's unique mental attitude.  Notwithstanding his extraordinary powers of observation and utterance, he seems to me to confront the world like a child.  Turning to him, I escape from our complicated and introspective world, and am refreshed."

What a perfect ending to think about as we close this discussion of the Metamorphoses Book l & ll.  Metamorphoses is to each of us what we take away from it.

PatH., Thank you, I too enjoyed discussing this book with you as well.  There is no book for the month of March, so I will continue with The Odyssey and I also picked up The Girl On The Train by Paula Hawkins. 

Until me meet again.....  Ciao for now




 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #710 on: March 04, 2016, 12:40:21 AM »
Bellemarie Homer may not have show rape but his treatment of women is not exactly uplifting - in The Odyssey woman are treated based on appearance, the things men want from them, and whether the woman has any power over men.

During Odysseus' journey to the underworld he sees many different types of women. We hear about their beauty, their bewitching ability to seduce, their important sons, or their affairs with gods. We hear nothing about these women's accomplishments in their lifetime. And it appears to be an OK thing that Odysseus lives with some of the women he meets, some for years with no thought of his being married to Penelope.

Penelope is paid attention to only because of her position. Because she has a kingdom, she has suitors crowding around her day and night. Being a woman, Penelope has no control over what the suitors do and cannot get rid of them. The suitors want her wealth and her kingdom. They do not respect her enough to stop feeding on Odysseus' wealth; they feel she owes them something because she won't marry one of them. One of the suitors, Antinoos, tells Telemakhos, her son "...but you should know the suitors are not to blame- it is your own incomparably cunning mother." Even Telemakhos doesn't respect his mother as he should.

When the song of a minstrel makes her sad and Penelope requests him to stop playing, Telemakhos interrupts and says to her, "Mother, why do you grudge our own dear minstrel joy of song, wherever his thought may lead."

When Odysseus returns he hides his true identity from Penelope to test her. Then, when Penelope is cautious about accepting that it is truly him, Odysseus rails against her in anger.

There really is very little respect for women by Homer or any of these ancient Greek writers. We can each read these stories with whatever sensibilities works for us - I found the only way for me is to see the symbolism in the union of opposites but yes, the aggressive aspect of 'right' exhibited by the males gets to be a bit much after a couple of episodes. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #711 on: March 04, 2016, 08:59:40 AM »
Egads Barb, I think you have just posted spoilers for me since I have never read The Odyssey and am only on the first chapters.  So far I like how Penelope was creative enough to unravel the threads at night, so the suitors were put off, that in fact gives her control of keeping the suitors from her.  Pretty smart and funny!  I also like how Athene is able to give Telemachus guidance and counsel to go in search for his father.  These examples show me Homer has given some credence to women, rather than just their beauty. 

Ovid's fixation with rape, and transforming women into trees and cows was just a bit too much for me. I found no enjoyment reading the Metamorphoses, filled with chaos and over egotistical male gods bringing harm to the females, and even their own self, with all that male muscle flexing. 

I love the style of Homer's writing. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Mkaren557

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #712 on: March 04, 2016, 09:42:00 AM »
I would like to continue reading in Metamorphoses, but will go to something else if that is what the group wants to do.  I believe that in their actual cultures, women were more respected and more powerful in Roman than in Greek culture.  I have not read the Odyssey in many years and really have just started with Metamorphoses, but would expect mythology/literature to reflect that. 

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #713 on: March 04, 2016, 10:47:03 AM »
I would like to continue too. I'm really hooked on the book.  The advantage of a bunch of short tales is that we can start and stop at will.

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #714 on: March 04, 2016, 10:51:25 AM »
Bellamarie, Penelope continues to act with strength, and Homer does portray women with sympathy. It,s too bad you weren't around when we did the Odyssey.

Jonathan

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #715 on: March 04, 2016, 02:25:23 PM »
I see a lot of sympathy for women in The Metamorphoses - as victims. And I also see this discussion as a lively fresh look at Ovid. Please continue.

'... in their actual cultures, women were more respected and more powerful in Roman than in Greek culture.'

That's a good thing to be reminded of, Mkaren. The history of powerful women remains to be written. Is already being written. I'm always reminded of Rudyard Kipling's poem with it's refrain:

'For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.'

So the metamorphoses were perhaps intended to save the women from themselves? Poetic justice.

bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #716 on: March 04, 2016, 03:58:50 PM »
PatH.,  I'm sorry I was not around when the discussion on the Odyssey was taking place as well.  Maybe I'll peek back into the archives to see how those who discussed it saw things.  But I am finding it so enjoyable. I happened to be in Barnes & Noble today and found a two in one book of, The Odyssey and The Iliad for only $7.98 and decided to buy it since I have never read either of them.


Jonathan,
Quote
I see a lot of sympathy for women in The Metamorphoses - as victims.

Why did this make me giggle.  ;D   Ovid tortures women and then shows sympathy for them.  Intended to save the women from themselves ???   Hmm.... interesting concept.   

Ya'll have fun with continuing on with the Metamorphoses, I have had enough of Ovid. 

Homer has me hooked!!! 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Frybabe

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #717 on: March 04, 2016, 04:41:25 PM »
Jonathan, there are more than a few powerful women in the ancient world. Cleopatra is probably the best known here. But there are others.
The Trung Sisters in Vietnam are practically unkinown here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tr%C6%B0ng_Sisters
Hatshepsut, died 1458BC
Empress Wu Zetian, born: 625 AD; died: 705 AD
Queen Boudicca, who found against the Romans in Britain 60-61BC
Zenobia, Queen of Palmyra was born around 240AD
Nefertiti
Artemisia, ruler of Halicarnassus, fought with Xerxes against Greece in 480-479 BC
Cartimandua, Queen of the Brigantes
Elen Luyddog, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Elen

Some are shouded in myth, so it is hard to tell fact from fantasy.
Penthesilea, a Queen of the Amazons during the Trojan Wars. She sought revenge against Achilles for killing her sister.
Divoka Sarka, http://www.radio.cz/en/section/czechs/czechs-in-history-2001-03-21
Semiramis (Sammu-Ramat), warrior Queen of Assyria. Several ancient historians (including Herodotus) mention her although neither she nor her husband are on the "Kings List".

A caveat, however, many powerful women in the ancient world got there because they happened to be married to powerful men. Not a few were regents for their underaged children. And, of course, there were plenty of men who didn't like it, so  some of these women didn't last long.

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #718 on: March 04, 2016, 05:13:08 PM »
Fabulous!  It looks as if we have a great group assembling, are you in, Frybabe? And we can see if we can attract others, who may be interested in the exciting choices presented. We can choose right here or in a poll which story we would like to address.

What do you say we take a week or so to deliberate  and to discuss the different choices and then set a new date to begin? I do think having read Book I  some of you  now  have a good understanding and  background, from the many intelligent remarks here about what Ovid was doing, to continue. We will all get something very worthwhile out of it. And we will be glad we did it, too. It will be "One for the Books!"

JoanK

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #719 on: March 04, 2016, 05:25:00 PM »
I'm glad you are discovering Homer. Enjoy. When we were reading it, I said something about Homer respecting women, and someone answered "Homer respects everyone". You cant expect anyone in those times to have the "attitude toward women" that men kinda-sorta have today: he portrays them as a man of his times would. But his basic empathy with all people comes through.

"many powerful women in the ancient world got there because they happened to be married to powerful men." Unlike Hilary Clinton. We haven't gotten that far.