Ovid's Metamorphoses

[JoanK]

Deucalion and Phrrha
by Artist    
Peter Paul Rubens (1577–1640)
Date    1636
Prado Museum

(The Lombardo translation is highly recommended, but there are tons of them available online, free.   Here is a sampling, or please share with us another you've found which you like:)


---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088---Translated by  A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...

---http://classics.mit.edu         /Ovid/metam.html...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al


----    http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html----Translated by Brookes More

Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:

-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm

-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm

For Your Consideration:

Week Two: Gods and men learn to interact January 26--?

 First section: The Four Ages

  Bk I:89-112 The Golden Age
  Bk I:113-124 The Silver Age
  Bk I:125-150 The Bronze Age

1. Have you heard other versions of the Four Ages?  Where did Ovid get this story?

2. Why do you think the ages progress from better to worse instead of the other direction?

3. The  Golden Age sounds wonderful, doesn't it?  What would your idea of a "Golden Age" feature?

4. What is your favorite line from Ovid  about the Golden Age?

5. What was it that turned the Golden Age into the Silver Age?

6. What is "Classical Mythology?" Do you have time to watch less than 10 minutes of Dr. Roger Travis of UCONN explain what "The Rudy Thing" is,  so we can discuss it? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvt3EazHqXY

Second Section: Giants and Lycaon
  Bk I:151-176 The giants
  Bk I:177-198 Jupiter threatens to destroy humankind
  Bk I: 199-243 Lycaon is turned into a wolf

1. What are the Giants? Why is this chapter there?  Does it accomplish anything?

2. We now meet the Pantheon of Gods for the first time. The imagery here is spectacular.  What line or lines particularly struck you in the writing  about their conference?

3. A direct reference is made to Augustus for the first time in this poem. Who is he being likened to? Why?

4. What would the Romans have seen as Lycaon’s real offense?

Third section: The Flood
  Bk I:244-273 Jupiter invokes the floodwaters
  Bk I:274-292 The Flood
  Bk I:293-312 The world is drowned

1. What other ancient flood stories do you know?  How is this one the same or different?

2. Are the other gods wholeheartedly behind Jupiter’s plan?  Why or why not?  Do you think Jupiter was justified in bringing the flood?

3. During the flood, what would happen to the nymphs and other forest spirits Jupiter is supposedly protecting.

Fourth section: Life returns
  Bk I:313-347 Deucalion and his wife Pyrrha
  Bk I:348-380 They ask Themis for help
  Bk I:381-415 The human race is re-created
  Bk I:416-437 Other species are generated

Discussion Leaders: PatH and ginny

         

I seem to remember reading that either the Incas or the Aztecs had a flood story similar to ours. It was used to hypothesize early contact with Europe, I'm not convinced. The Americas had an ice age too. And the desire to want to explain natural disasters and to do so as anger of a superior being seems common.

this whole passage in the Lombardo translation is amazing! I'm so glad I read it.

[BarbStAubrey]

Ok if we are using the Bible as a source the 'giants' are mentioned - here is a web site talking about the giants of the Bible.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Anakim.html

Numbers 13:22
Sheshai, and Ahiman, and Talmai, the children of Anak; the very same giants Caleb saw at Hebron, when he was sent a spy into the land,

Another Translation:
They went up through the Negev and came to Hebron, where Ahiman, Sheshai and Talmai, the descendants of Anak, lived. (Hebron had been built seven years before Zoan in Egypt.)

Genesis 6:4
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

Deuteronomy 9:2
The people are strong and tall--Anakites! You know about them and have heard it said: "Who can stand up against the Anakites?"

Numbers 13:33
We even saw giants there, the descendants of Anak. Next to them we felt like grasshoppers, and that's what they thought, too!"

Other Translation
We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them."

And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

And there we saw giants, the sons of Anak, of the race of the giants; and we were in our own sight as locusts, and so we were in their sight.

And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, who come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

Verse 33. - The giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants, אֶת־הַנְּפִילים בְּנִי עַנָק מִן־הַנְּפִלים. The Nephilim, Beni-Anak, of the Nephilim. The Septuagint has only τοὺς γίγαντας. The Nephilim are, without doubt, the primaeval tyrants mentioned under that name in Genesis 6:4. The renown of these sons of violence had come down from those dim ages, and the exaggerated fears of the spies saw them revived in the gigantic forms of the Beni-Anak.

[BarbStAubrey]

here among several translations of Genesis is... "And Sarah died at Koriath Gabarey (the Town of the Giants); that is Hebron in the land of Canaan; and Abraham came to mourn for Sarah and to weep for her."

[howshap]

I have fallen behind, but not too far.  The far-ranging comments on the war with the Giants,  the resulting creation of men in the form of gods, Jupiter's wrath, and his cleansing flood  took me to unfamiliar places, forgotten bits of ancient history and new poet-translators.  Thanks all.

Ovid seems to have  narratives for the creation of man.  The first produces  the creatures shaped either by the Master Architect or Prometheus; the second produces  the wicked creatures sprung from the blood of the Giants who provoke Zeus to wipe out all mankind but one pious couple; and the third involves their off-spring after the deluge subsides.  Ovid does not seem to worry about reconciling these narratives.

Jupiter's  council of the gods is easily read  as a metaphor for Augustus and the Senate.  Jupiter  convenes the major gods on Olympus, (which Ovid compares to the Palatine where Augustus lives), but only so they can  hear what he has already decided.  Per Lombardo  "Some of the gods voiced their approval and even/ Goaded him on, while others playacted their silent consent,...."
 
That same approach is reiterated when Jupiter describes, post facto, the punishment of Lycaon.  He has already turned Lycaon into a howling wolf without any consultation about condign punishment. 

The Lycaon episode also appears to be the first of Ovid's stories about disguised  interaction between the gods and humankind.  Jupiter assumes human form to test Lycaon, but gives "a sign that a god has come."  Ovid doesn't say what that sign was, but it was apparently clear enough that "the common people began to pray."  Lycaon, unfortunately for him, insisted on a test tainted by cannabalism.  What if he had asked for a less horrid test, for example like turning water into wine.  Would he have been turned into a grape-vine?

In contrast to direct interaction, Decaulion and Pyrrha proceeded through the "oracular response" of Themis, who was married to Zeus, but got along with Hera (A Smaller Classical Dictionary, 1910).  Her response seems closer to the Old Testament's prophets than the direct interventions by the Graeco-Roman gods.

It seems to me that from time-to-time, Ovid was dressing Augustus in a Zeus-suit, but just to mock him and the sycophants who supported his dictatorship.



     
  Decaulion and Pyrrha proceeded under the "oracular response" of Themis   

[Jonathan]

'...the desire to want to explain natural disasters and to do so as anger of a superior being seems common.'

Your comment, Joan, got me thinking. What a curious 'history lesson' has been made of the deluge that covered the earth and left such a strange memory for all ages. And strange to see the use Ovid makes of it. Some fine poetry with a nasty political message. Perhaps exile was too good for him.

I don't want to be seen as nitpicking when I wonder if Zeus would ever have destroyed his creation as the Roman Jupiter did to satisfy his anger. And I have to wonder why the author of Genesis was tempted to include this unique event in his historical account. I have to rethink that. So much life destroyed! Was it truly an Act of God?

[ginny]

Well it looks like Lombardo got the prize that time! Thank you for all those submissions of different translations,  it really is good isn't it ?  Just beautiful and he really captures I think what Ovid was trying to say there.... in that it's a description of animals and trees and yet he really gets across the terrific pathos of it while kind of skipping human emotions here...he seems to be withdrawing a little bit.   

 And he's focusing on animals swimming which normally would be fighting and they're struggling for their lives ....and all the crops he's talking about crops and trees,  not the people --there's  not much here on the agony of the people caught up in this thing. Which is interesting. Especially for somebody to put so much emotion into the old Greek myths  bring them to life.


 Wonderful points, Howard! You're right,  there doesn't seem to be too much continuity in the narrative,  does there?   It's definitely a continuing poem but I don't know if it's a continuous narrative.  As he said it would be.   I really liked your point about  Lycaon.  That Jupiter announces it after he's done it, but it sort of makes a statement, if you follow the allegory theory of Augustus as  Jupiter and if he's paralleling Augustus, it sort of makes a statement about him too, doesn't it? It really makes you rethink sometimes what Ovid was really banished for. 

 Jonathan  makes a good point.  There were other Greek versions of the great flood. In fact I think there were at least three. I can't  recall specifically if Zeus  was actually involved in all three or even if he was involved in one ---it would be make interesting reading.

 I believe the Gilgamesh also has pre-diluvian Giants .


 But all that again is putting his own touch on this we don't have any human pathos in this at all -- very good question by Pat what about all the nymphs and forest spirits that Jupiter said he was trying to protect?  Do we assume that they developed water wings.... or ?

The  whole world is flooded: everything and everybody is going to die or has died and then .......

 Ovid's purpose is not to write a religious tract.. he's not writing about religion at all....he's writing of change, metanmorphoses,  his whole theme is change so he's created his own world,  peopled by the things that he wants.  He's populated it with ancient myths that he is changing to suit himself.   Satire? Allegory? Is he too flippant? It's almost a shape shifting thing from moment to moment. Which is what he said it would be. Some of the most beautiful descriptions anywhere to come. 


 Jonathan why do you say exile was too good for him? That's an interesting statement.

Do we have anything in western literature like this? I'm thinking Alice in Wonderland?   I don't read a lot of science fiction but is the category of fantasy even remotely anything like this?

[PatH]

Howshap, I like your summing-up.  Thanks for pointing out that Themis was married to Zeus; I didn't know that, and Kline's index doesn't mention it.  Here's a copious amount about her.  She shows up later in Ovid, too.

http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanisThemis.html

"dressing Augustus in a Zeus-suit"  That's good.

Jonathan:

I wonder if Zeus would ever have destroyed his creation as the Roman Jupiter did to satisfy his anger

Zeus was milder than Jupiter, so maybe he wouldn't.

[PatH]

It's about time to dry off.  We can transition smoothly into the story of Deucalion and Pyrra, and the re-creation.

Bk I:313-347 Deucalion and his wife Pyrrha
Bk I:348-380 They ask Themis for help
Bk I:381-415 The human race is re-created
Bk I:416-437 Other species are generated

This goes up to the birth of Python.  As always, we can continue what we're already saying too.

[bellamarie]

Ginny,

   Ovid's purpose is not to write a religious tract.. he's not writing about religion at all....he's writing of change, metamorphoses,  his whole theme is change so he's created his own world,  peopled by the things that he wants.  He's populated it with ancient myths that he is changing to suit himself.

Metamorphoses is indeed about changes, and not to write a religious tract, but you can not ignore the similarities, thus comparing some parts of his poem to the writings in the Bible, no different than comparing his similarities to Homer, Virgil, etc., just as many scholars have done.  The fact he uses the gods, creation, flood etc., makes for a discussion you would be remiss to ignore. Ovid has definitely made this his own work of art, no one would dispute that.  He lacks order, believability, consistency, making it a true work of fiction.  Although, Augustus could see it had it's political undertones, and immoral substance, which possibly caused his reason to exile Ovid.

PatH., When you asked what about all the nymphs and forest spirits that Jupiter said he was trying to protect, my theory is Jupiter used that as an excuse to wipe out all of mankind.  He was furious Lycaon tried to kill him in his sleep and makes that an argument.  Outraged, Jupiter decides to punish humanity with a flood, because of their piety.  Pretty sure it had nothing to do with protecting the lesser animals.

He tells them that he plans to kill all the humans – apparently because he means to protect all the demigods like Nymphs, Satyrs, and Fauns that still live on earth.
He asks, "How can they be safe if Lycaon could pull such a trick on me, the king of the gods?"

For me I had to laugh at this argument. Jupiter the "king of gods" was duped by Lycaon?  No one even knew who Lycaon was.        

[BarbStAubrey]

I guess the thing that gobsmacked me the most was this concept of Giants - when I read what I never knew and I found in a reference we were all familiar giants being mentioned I've been in a state of shock so to speak ever since.

What, How, sounds too much like science fiction - even if it is a mythological fantasy that they built a mountain to reach the heavens the fact that giants existed is still baffling to me - I am wanting to assume they were very tall real people as - and I cannot remember their name - the tribe in Africa that herd cattle. Or since they were in existence  before the flood did these floods take in more of the earth's surface than we imagined and these 'giants' were wiped out.

I can buy easily the story of the break in the Black Sea - have no idea how the Mediterranean happened and that could be an answer assuming these Giants actually came from Africa - saw a PBS show last week that showed the Egyptians, before Greek culture, fought and lost to a tribe that were not called giants but were tall people and they became the rulers of Egypt which makes me think if these giants were in or from Africa they would not have been directly affected by the flood.

All very curious and maybe since there are no definitive answers is why we do not hear of giants even during a Bible study with many of the translations of the Bible omitting the word altogether. And so now I do not know what to believe - where they real or a literary fantasy towards making a myth - If real what constituted the size of a giant and where did they come from - not finding an answer for a question drives me insane.   

Back to Ovid's structure - this reminds me of a legal brief - all the points to prove a thesis - or even a math equation - nothing in real depth - almost as if the points are general knowledge and therefore, no in-depth story explaining, he is simply listing them to show how these changes fit his thesis of metamorphose. Almost as if he is building to a set of new thoughts that may portend a story that will explain what he really has in mind but before he gets there he has to set up the field.

[bellamarie]

Barb, very good analysis. 

With all due respect to this creative poem and to the creator of it Ovid, I must say I see he is making it up as he goes along, and what I find inconsistent is the fact he has creation of mankind coming from all different angles.  While he had his reasons, possibly political, and amoral, he goes beyond limits like no other.  I am not passing judgement or criticism, just stating how I see it.  Not even saying I would expect him to stay within any type of boundaries.  It is indeed his creative mind!   

Barb,

even if it is a mythological fantasy that they built a mountain to reach the heavens the fact that giants existed is still baffling to me

This particular part of the poem reminded me of the Tower of Bable.  (Sorry for referring once again to the Bible, I just can't avoid mention the similarities.) 

The people of Babel said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth." (NIV). The descendants of Noah all spoke a single language.

[JoanK]

BARB:"Almost as if he is building to a set of new thoughts that may portend a story that will explain what he really has in mind but before he gets there he has to set up the field."

That's really interesting. I too got the feeling of "setting the stage" at the beginning when Ovid was getting the world going. But once we got to the council of the gods, I felt he was really into it.

[Frybabe]

Ginny,

Do we have anything in western literature like this? I'm thinking Alice in Wonderland?   I don't read a lot of science fiction but is the category of fantasy even remotely anything like this?

2001: A Space Odyssey comes immediately to mind. Any what about all those Scifi stories about AI becoming sentient? They are not on the cataclysmic scale of Metamorphoses, though. Maybe some of the colony building books that include terraforming a planet to make it habitable for humans. One of Jack McDevitt's Priscilla Hutchins books featured doing just that.

[PatH]

So, all the animals have drowned, and all the humans except one couple, Deucalion and Pyrrha, who make their way to the one remaining bit of land.  Why those two?  were they chosen, or is it simply an accident?

[bellamarie]

PatH., 

Why those two?  were they chosen, or is it simply an accident?

No, it was not by accident.  I read they were more obedient and righteous, and were warned what was coming by Prometheus the father of Deucalion.

Here is a interesting article that claims there actually were other survivors:  Hmmm....

The Bronze generation, however, was very corrupt. Zeus was angered by their impiety and sent a Great Deluge to the envelop the earth and destroy them. Only Deukalion and Pyrrha survived--having been warned of the impending calamity by Prometheus, they mounted a chest and sailed to the dry peaks of Mount Parnassos. Other Greek regions also claimed survivors--King Dardanos was said to have sought refuge on Mount Ida in the Troad, Kerambos was carried to the heights of Mount Othrys by the Nymphs, Megaros fled to Mount Gerana, Arkas and Nyktimos were preserved on Mount Kyllene in Arkadia, and the tribe of Parnassos fled to the heights above Delphoi. Io and her son Epaphos, who lived in Egypt, were also preserved.

http://www.theoi.com/Heros/Deukalion.html

When Zeus decided to end the Bronze Age with the great deluge, Deucalion and his wife, Pyrrha, were the only survivors. Even though he was imprisoned, Prometheus who could see the future and had foreseen the coming of this flood told his son, Deucalion, to build an ark and, thus, they survived. During the flood, they landed on Mount Parnassus, the only place spared by the flood.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrha

Deucalion and Pyrrha. Zeus allowed only two pious mortals to be saved, DEUCALION [dou-kay'li-on] or DEUKALION (the Greek Noah), the son of Prometheus, and his wife PYRRHA [pir'ra], the daughter of Epimetheus. When the flood subsided they found themselves in their little boat stranded on Mt. Parnassus. They were dismayed to discover that they were the only survivors and consulted the oracle of Themis about what they should do.
http://global.oup.com/us/companion.websites/9780195397703/student/materials/chapter4/summary/

[JoanK]

So, we are descended from stones! I wonder if this will come up later in discussing our nature!

[Mkaren557]

Now, let me see if I can summarize where I am with the text.  I am not a reader of fantasy, science fiction, or anything else that goes beyond my ability to suspend belief.  When animals think and talk, when extra-terrestial beings land in New York, or when Alice falls down the rabbit hole, I turn off.  I used to lump mythology right there with fantasy.  Ovid is making this up as he goes along, just as all writers of fiction do, creating a world that will be familiar to the Romans.  So, on the level of story telling, he is writing down the myths that the people already know, to show that change, some for the better and some for the worse, will befall man and will touch society.  Maybe he is doing what myth makers have always done: He answers questions that have puzzled all humanity at one time or another.  Why do natural disasters happen?  Why are men always waging war?  Where did we come from?  What is the nature of man? 
      This is how Ovid explains how being created from stones affected the character of man
"And so we are a tough breed, used to hard labor,
And we are living proof of our origin." 430-431 
It also shows the reader that in Ovid's Rome, being from a tough breed is valued.

Anyway, here I am reading myths and really enjoying them.  I will continue to look to myth for answers about the people who created the myths and the societies they lived in.

I wonder if we in 2016 are still creating myths to explain what we don't know or understand?       

[ginny]

I wonder if we in 2016 are still creating myths to explain what we don't know or understand? 

I think we definitely are. Case in point: Punxatawny Phil.

So, on the level of story telling, he is writing down the myths that the people already know, to show that change, some for the better and some for the worse, will befall man and will touch society.  Maybe he is doing what myth makers have always done: He answers questions that have puzzled all humanity at one time or another.  Why do natural disasters happen?  Why are men always waging war?  Where did we come from?  What is the nature of man?


I agree. Deucalion and Pyrrha are old myths, before Ovid's time. Apollodorus and Hyginus both told different versions.  Apollodorus was interested in Deucalions's father being Prometheus.

I love this part of the story. I love Lombardo's wonderful translation of the turning from stones into people, it sounds exactly like the Invasion of the Body   Snatchers 2.

The imagery there in Ovid is incredible. I would have never figured out that the bones of one's mother were the earth.

Here's a lovely bit of tenderness between Deucalion and Pyrrha:


                                            These clouds
Still strike terror in my heart. Poor soul,
What would you feel like now if the Fates
Had taken  me and left you behind? How could you bear
Your fear alone? Who could comfort your grief?
You can be sure that if the sea already held you,
I would follow you, my wife, beneath the sea.
Oh, if only I could restore the people of the world
By my father's arts, breathe life into molded clay!
Now the human race rests on the two of us,
We are, by the gods' will, the last of our kind.

[PatH]

Mkaren, I'm glad you're finding enjoyment in Ovid.  I hadn't read him until this discussion was proposed, but have definitely gotten hooked.  It really is a window into a different mindset, and how these people tried to answer the unanswerable.  Are we still creating myths?  Surely we are.  I'm too close to see what they are, though.

[PatH]

Bellamarie, I'm glad you posted those links.  They show what Ovid has left out, because he never says that Prometheus warned Deucalion of the flood.  In Ovid, the fact that Deucalion and Pyrrha are the last people left is random, their boat is described as a "raft" or a "small skiff", not what you would build.  But once they are the only ones left, their piety is the reason Jupiter makes the waters recede and lets them survive.

Is this left-out detail important to Ovid, or just part of the condensing process?  He leaves out, adds, and changes to suit himself.

[PatH]

The poetry in Ovid: Ginny points out the wonderful tenderness in Deucalion's speech to Pyrrha, which Lombardo translates particularly well.

There's another passage in this section I particularly liked.  Jupiter has decided to stop the flooding, and Neptune has ordered Triton to sound the retreat of the waters.

Old Triton lifted the hollow, spiraling shell
Whose sound fills the shores on both sides of the world
When he gets his lungs into it out in mid-ocean.
When this horn touched the sea god's lips, streaming
With brine from his dripping beard and sounded the retreat.

Latin scholars, help.  There's a lot of rhythmical similarity in lines 2, 3, and 4, and grammatical similarity in 3 and 4.  How does this play out in Latin?

[bellamarie]

PatH., 

He leaves out, adds, and changes to suit himself.

Yes, he does.  What do you all think of the fact in this particular article it states there were others who survived the flood?

Other Greek regions also claimed survivors--King Dardanos was said to have sought refuge on Mount Ida in the Troad, Kerambos was carried to the heights of Mount Othrys by the Nymphs, Megaros fled to Mount Gerana, Arkas and Nyktimos were preserved on Mount Kyllene in Arkadia, and the tribe of Parnassos fled to the heights above Delphoi. Io and her son Epaphos, who lived in Egypt, were also preserved.

Indeed we continue to make up our own myths of today, the most recent one is,Star Wars the Awakening, and all of the Star Wars movies are fantastic, and mythical.  And what about these movies, Hercules, Clash of the Titans, Brother Where Art Thou takes on Homer's Oydessey, Harry Potter, The Hunger Games, the list goes on and on.  Could you imagine a world without the creativity of Ovid, Shakespeare, George Lucas, Rod Serling, J K Rowling, or Lewis Carroll to name a few.

Have a day of grandkids today, basketball tournaments for two of them and then a sleepover with the littlest ones.  I'll check back in later.  It's going to be a sunny above temps day here in Ohio!!

[PatH]

Bellamarie:

What do you all think of the fact in this particular article it states there were others who survived the flood?

I'm guessing each of those localities wanted the glory for their own turf.

[BarbStAubrey]

Either that or they did not know of each-others stories - I remember not too long ago there was I think a travel show on PBS but something that had a small group with camera visiting some folks who live in the mountains of what was Yugoslavia and their practices and traditional behavior was like something we would have read taking place several hundred years ago that was still the active lifestyle today in spite of all the wars and change in Europe - these folks lived in a more isolated area where sheep was about the only thing they could raise which meant only brief exchanges with the outside world when the wool and hides were sold.

I am thinking with the population as it was during the time in history that when this flood happened there were probably all sorts of small pockets of folks who escaped onto higher ground.

As to the flood having a moral implication, I think is man-made. Man trying to make sense out of what was not known yet how the earth functions and so the cause must be from the hand of some invisible power.

[PatH]

Two good points, Barb.

Something else I wondered: when Jupiter told the other gods his plans, they objected that there would be nobody to keep incense burning on their altars, he

     "...promised them a new race,
different from the first, from a wondrous origin."

These just look like more humans to me.  Are they what Jupiter meant, or did he change his plans after he let Deucalion and Pyrrha survive?

[JoanK]

GROUNDHOG DAY: I love groundhog day -- an example of us modern, scientific people using an old myth to predict the weather. The myth dates back at least 300 years, and was brought to the US by German settlers. Punxsutawney  PHIL first strutted his stuff in 1886.

http://www.stormfax.com/ghogday.htm

[JoanK]

Of course, no one really believes in the poor groundhog. But the myth could have been based on a peculiarity of German weather, where Spring was always preceded by weeks of cloudy weather.

[BarbStAubrey]

Today we believe in our religion - as science shows us the rational for some of our beliefs we still see the ultimate source of the universe before the big bang as something that many prefer to call God - our belief in a God is not only strong but as all gods are explained they are a source of moral direction and making sense of the confusion that is the universe, offering us comfort that something greater is at the basis of all we do not understand - this gives us a sense of security.

Throughout history many of us have wanted a oneness to bring together the duality that divided - water from earth - man from animal - north from south etc. For as many of us that desire a oneness there are those who see each aspect of nature as a separate god as the Hindu, Shintoists etc.

With that in mind I think the Romans believed in their religion that incorporated many gods, each with a limited power and a story that explained how they obtained their power, what they have done with their power and as we honor the power of One God through ceremony, alters, music, art, etc. so too did the Romans honor their multiple gods -

We do not minimize the story of Buddha or the practice of young boys wearing the saffron robe for a year as they learn through living the life of a Bhikkhus and so I think it is our own hubris suggesting these stories of the Roman and Greek gods are only to be explained as one step up from a fairytale -

Yes, Santa has become many things to many people however, there are a couple of historical prototypes for St. Nickolas that reading those stories we take the concept of giving and being worthy to receive on to a different plain.  As we read about the devotions and temples to these Roman gods, the people at the time must have not only believed but put a great amount of faith and devotion into these gods with their stories that seem today to be ludicrous.

Actually, is telling a story of one god eating another or several any worse than our intimate practice of eating bread and drinking wine during a service that is honoring the directive given to us by someone who lived 2000 years ago - We take this ritual very seriously as if eating the body and blood of Christ - Just saying that to a person not of the faith they could easily scratch their head and think we all have a cannibalistic nature at heart. 

But the act is symbolic - and so too I think the stories of the gods are symbolic towards something greater - it was fine for the enemies of Rome like Judaism and Christianity to minimize and belittle worshiping these many gods but must we carry on this dis-respect today simply because the religious practice is not within our idea of God and the stories told about these gods are so different than the stories of man's interaction with angles, and voices taking place before the time of Christ. 

[JoanK]

BARB:"must we carry on this dis-respect today simply because the religious practice is not within our idea of God and the stories told about these gods are so different."

I agree. That's why I came back and deleted the post you referred to before I saw your post.

[JoanK]

I do wonder about some stories of animals being sensitive to coming changes in the weather. I don't know enough about it, but it's quite possible that some animals could sense changes in pressure or other early warnings that we miss.

[bellamarie]

Ginny, your Lombardo translation seems to make everything sound almost romantic, and so wonderful.  I really like it.

PatH., and Barb, good points on why there were others who survived the flood. 

JoanK.,  I do think because animals must live more closely to the earth and rely on it for shelter and food, probably could "sense changes in pressure or other early warnings that we miss".  I swear my dog senses a thunderstorm before I ever hear the thunder. 

[bellamarie]

Why do you suppose Ovid says the python was created against earth's will?  And what is the purpose of creating a python, only to kill it?

And it was then that earth, against her will,
had to engender you, enormous Python,
a horrid serpent, new to all men's eyes__
a sight that terrified the reborn tribes;
you body filled up all the mountainside.

[BarbStAubrey]

Joan your post got me thinking and thanks because I never realized while reading these myths it was as if reading the life of a saint and yet, to the Romans these gods were no less meaningful - your post helped me see that especially, since my education included accepting these gods as 'less than' and not as 'real' gods - yes, almost like Santa Clause rather than as if a St. Nickolas.

I also wonder if Ovid is not so much building us up with a lot of facts known at the time to a big revelation but rather, showing all the ways metamorphose explains our world that at the time, rather than stating something new Ovid was making connections that had been overlooked or not seen from a viewpoint of change.

Well if his intent was to instigate change in those who read his work he sure accomplished that much for me, as I said, I realized how we were taught to understand and explain the gods was not honoring this symbolic life force for Romans and putting the Romans devotional practices on a questionable level believing them wanting in comparison to the Judaeo-Christian devotions. The western tradition is filled with trampling on those whose religious practices are different.

We may have the likes of a saint that morphed into Santa Clause where as, the Romans have gods that morphed into constellations of stars. Love it... 

Bellamarie I am thinking Ovid spoke of the serpent not so much as temptation, as in Adam and Eve but, as the symbol of repopulating after the flood - Roman boys wore the bulla, an amulet that contained a phallic charm, until they formally came of age. A sacred phallus was among the objects considered vital to the security of the Roman state which were in the keeping of the Vestal Virgins.

Since this is the horrid serpent it could be Ovid is referring to the python killed by Apollo to avenge his mother who was pursued by the god Python so she would not birth Apollo during daytime hours. That would also explain the god Python filling up the mountainside since he had to cover all the places that Apollo's mother could give birth.

The symbolism of the snake as 'Evil' versus 'Good' was thought ignored by the primitive Christian community. For several centuries the question was: If God is benevolent and omnipotent, why does He permit evil? And, if God is all-powerful how could he accept good and evil as divine forces? It was St. Augustine in the 5th century (over 500 years after Ovid's Metamorphoses) whose views on Satan as the Devil with all its symbolic representation of evil was accepted by the Christian community.

[bellamarie]

I'm just curious why Ovid would say, " earth, against her will,"  I wasn't thinking along the line of the good vs evil symbol, more so I was wondering why earth would create something if it were against her will.  I'm sure there is a reason for this to appear, other than:

To keep the memory of his great feat
alive, the god established sacred games;
and after the defeated serpent's name,
they were called Pythian.  Here all young men
who proved to be the best at boxing or
at running or at chariot racing wore
a wreath of oak leaves as their crown of honor.

The serpent being created and then destroyed made me think of St. Patrick driving all the snakes out of Ireland.  While searching you can find many arguments of this being a myth and that there actually were no snakes in Ireland. 

St Patrick banishes the snakes from Ireland
The absence of snakes in Ireland gave rise to the legend that they had all been banished by St. Patrick chasing them into the sea after they attacked him during a 40-day fast he was undertaking on top of a hill.  However, all evidence suggests that post-glacial Ireland never had snakes.  Water has surrounded Ireland since the end of the last glacial period, preventing snakes from slithering over; before that, it was blanketed in ice and too chilly for the cold-blooded creatures. Scholars believe the snake story is an allegory for St Patrick’s eradication of pagan ideology.
The snake was the symbol of the Celts and their spiritual elite, the Druids - who inhabited the island of Ireland long before the arrival of Christianity in the 5th century AD.  When Patrick arrived, the only “pesky and dangerous creatures” that St Patrick wished to cast away were the native Celts.   
Since snakes often represent evil in literature, "when Patrick drives the snakes out of Ireland, it is symbolically saying he drove the old, evil, pagan ways out of Ireland [and] brought in a new age," said classics professor Philip Freeman of Luther College in Iowa.


Read more: http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-general/day-st-patrick-and-myth-snakes-being-cast-out-ireland-001455#ixzz3zUf8xACQ

Not intending to discuss St. Patrick, or if he did or did not banish snakes or what the snakes represented, my wonder is what or why does Ovid have earth create something against her will, "a horrid serpent" and then destroy it?  I'm suspecting the serpent had a political, or some other meaning to Ovid.  I'll defer this to the rest of you to tackle, it's too early for my brain to work with my two little grandchildren calling, "Nonnie, Nonnie" every two seconds.  Back later once they have been picked up, and there is more time to concentrate.  Just wanted to get this thought down before I forgot it, since it came to me in the middle of the night. 

[PatH]

Bellamarie and Barb, I wondered about the python too, and it's part of a bigger question I have.  All the animals are killed in the flood, and afterwards new species are generated spontaneously from the earth.  Of my three translations, two say "spontaneously generated", the third "spontaneously created".  This implies natural processes, and Ovid gives an example of how life forms are created in the mud of the Nile.  (They aren't really, of course, but it looks like it if you don't know much about life cycles.)  Are the gods even involved here?  They could be, if the earth is acting as a goddess, not as mud.  Was the theory of spontaneous generation around then?

If the python was spontaneously generated, it would be against earth's will because anything with any consciousness would be revolted at something so disgusting.

[bellamarie]

PatH.,  That is a good point.  I was hoping others would tell me what their translations said in regards to this so I could maybe get a better idea of what Ovid is trying to make a point of.  Like you said, if it was spontaneously generated, and it was revolting and disgusting, I could see why they would not want it to exist.  Hmmm....going on a Google search now that the grankids are gone.  Wasn't sure I was going to make it through Mass with those two little munchkins.  God love em.  What's that saying about grandkids, spoil them and send them home.      

[bellamarie]

After seeing a couple more translations which are different than mine, I can see the serpent was enormous in size, and was very frightful.  Makes sense now why it would be killed off. 

In this production of life, the earth even formed a great serpent never seen before. Men called this monstrous snake, Python, and it sprawled across an entire mountainside striking fear into the hearts of mortals everywhere.
http://www.bookrags.com/notes/met/part4.html#gsc.tab=0


Anthony S. Kline:   Indeed, though she would not have desired to, she then gave birth to you, great Python, covering so great an area of the mountain slopes, a snake not known before, a terror to the new race of men.

[BarbStAubrey]

I think to get it we have to remove from our thoughts the idea that the snake represents evil - that did not come about till later -

At this time the snake represents power and fertility often it was a phallic symbol - representing immortality

The staff of Moses turned into a snake while others only refer to the crook as the head of a snake and it represented leadership.

The shedding or the snake's skin represent transformation and rebirth.

But it just dawned on me - there are serpent mounds - the mound would be like a mountain - most are found here in the states but there are some in Europe - 

But most of all there are many ancient works of metal and wood carvings depicting the coiling snake


The last being a picture of a roman snake bracelet.

[Jonathan]

The Python. Blame it on the sun. My translation reads: 'under the kindly radiance of the sun in heaven she (Earth) brought forth countless forms of life' including 'this snake that struck terror into the new-born race of men.'

An evil if ever there was one, and Apollo, with his thousand arrows, makes short work of him. No great moral victory for him, but a chance to show off his skills. In commemoration athletic games are instituted. For the boys. For the girls...it was enough to get into the sun to get impregnated. I can't get over what Ovid finds in all the old myths. He cuts all the gods down to size in one way or another. Why he has even Jupiter consulting the scroll of fate before taking action. Is he making fun of the whole pantheon of gods? Was he being disrespectful?

But I see fresh posts. More to think about. I'm still wondering what to say to this:

'A sacred phallus was among the objects considered vital to the security of the Roman state which were in the keeping of the Vestal Virgins.'

I thought it was the Roman legions that lookd after national security.

[bellamarie]

Barb,

I think to get it we have to remove from our thoughts the idea that the snake represents evil

I did not see in Ovid's poem the snake representing evil, more so I see he says it caused fear in people because of it's enormous size.  Anything that is stretching down the side of a mountain would surely scare me.  I am scared to death of any snake small or large.  I grew up in a rural area where my sister, brother and I were playing and came across a huge snake wrapped near a tree where we always played.  We ran home as fast as we could and never played there again.  I seriously to this day can not even look at a picture of a snake.

I am more than ready to be done with this section of the poem and move on to the next.......