Ovid's Metamorphoses

[JoanK]

Io by David Teniers the Elder (1582–1649)

Io, one of the 4 main moons of Jupiter. The others are: —Europa, Ganymede and Callisto.   All are featured in Ovid.

(The Lombardo translation is highly recommended, but there are tons of them available online, free.   Here is a sampling, or please share with us another you've found which you like:)


---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088---Translated by  A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...

---http://classics.mit.edu         /Ovid/metam.html...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al


----    http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html----Translated by Brookes More

Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:

-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm

-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm

For Your Consideration:

“Week” Three: Tales of Gods and Humans, February 9--?

  Second and Third Tales: Io, and Pan and Syrinx

 1) Bk I:568-587 Inachus mourns for Io
    Bk I:587-600 Jupiter’s rape of Io
    Bk I:601-621 Jupiter transforms Io to a heifer
    Bk I:622-641 Juno claims Io and Argus guards her
    Bk I:642-667 Inachus finds Io and grieves for her
    Bk I:668-688 Jupiter sends Mercury to kill Argus

 2) Bk I:689-721 Mercury tells the story of Syrinx
    Bk I:722-746 Io is returned to human form

1. What to  you is the saddest thing in the Io story?

2. This story is full of beautiful descriptions. Which lines particularly struck you? Do they interfere with the plot line?

3. What effect do the flashback elements and the interruption of the Pan and Syrinx have on the reader's feelings for Io?

4. What would you say is the tone of the Io story?

5. This is quite a story, it has two metamorphoses and two aetiological myths in it. Which one is the most important?

6. What might Io's struggles to communicate symbolize in our own time?

7. Who actually has the last word in this section?

8. What's your impression of Io's father?

9. If you had to choose between being Io or Daphne, which one would you choose? Why?

Discussion Leaders: PatH and ginny

[JoanK]

Yes, the description of Io as a cow is funny, but if the scene where she's trying to tell her father who she is, and lays a paw on her arm didn't arouse your pity ....

Notice, Ovid also says that Io's father didn't know whether to congratulate or commiserate with Daphne's father.

I'll give Ovid a tentative pass on the misogynist charge: and wait for what comes later. I suspect I know. I remember that view of Jupiter as the "hen pecked" husband who is always getting caught out. And the woman always the one who's punished -- never Jupiter. If this comes from Ovid, I'll take away my pass.

[PatH]

When I said slapstick, I only meant the interchange between Jupiter and Juno.  The description of Io is pathetic--guaranteed to move anyone.

[Frybabe]

A thought this morning,well, it's early. I wonder if calling a woman a cow, as a derogotroy reference, was originally inspired by the IO story.

[PatH]

I've been reading the first of those theses you found, Bellamarie.  In addition to the main arguments, which you summarized, there are some minor interesting points.  One is that some of the earlier stories are re-shaped and expanded into later stories, so the stories themselves undergo metamorphosis.

[bellamarie]

Yes, PatH., I agree Metamorphoses goes through a metamorphosis.  I found the theses very enlightening.  I do have to admit not ever knowing of them, or reading them before my searches, they did show me I was not alone in my thoughts on this poem and Ovid. 

JoanK., Keep in mind the part of being funny is a way the gods enjoyed their own cruel treatments while they were in their onset of pursuing the goddesses who were trying desperately to get away from them. It heightens their sexal arousal. It's a bit like the tormentor enjoys the pain he is inflicting. Like today's modern day story Fifty Shades of Grey. Satire or sadistic?   For me, sadistic comes to mind.

[Roxania]

I apologize for interrupting, because this doesn't have anything to do with the discussion at hand, but I wanted to share an amusing thing that came about as a result of our discussion on this thread.

If you cast your minds back to the very beginning, we were discussing the vexed question of the line segment in the third line that was translated as something like "for you changed them, too."  The Latin was "Nam vos mutastis et illas." 

I was curious as to whether anyone had commented on that line, so I started googling around.  It turns out that the British Museum has in its collection a piece of ephemera by that title--an 18th century broadside that has now been made available online.  Under "Curator's Comments," it said that the title was bad Latin that evidently was supposed to refer to the well-known tag, "Tempora mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis."

Certain that nobody in our group would be willing to let such a serious travesty of scholarship stand, I replied to their corrections link, pointing out that the phrase actually does occur in Ovid, and cited an online Latin edition to back up my assertion.  And I am happy to report that just this morning I got an e-mail from the mighty British Museum, assuring me that the correction had been made and will appear on the online version "in due course." 

Score one for the SeniorLearn Latin students!

[howshap]

I am just catching up with the conversation because of caretaker responsibilities.

Re Python I was intrigued by the discussion of snakes as symbols of both good and evil.  Had to look up agathos daimon  one of the "good spirit" forms of the snake that became an object of veneration in Egypt.  Also enjoyed Ginny's explanation of the etymological origins of the Pythean oracle at Delphi. 

The metamorphosis of Daphne and the ensuing discussion of rape, Ovid's attitude towards it, and the angry reactions to the story among the group reminded me once again that the major gods, the Dei Consentes, are not only immortal but immoral  under the standards of our day.  In the days when Ovid wrote of them, I believe, they were seen as amoral not immoral, simply  because they were gods. In their interactions with men their amorality was accepted because  everyone knew from their life experiences that "under the sun the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favor to the men of skill; but time and chance happen to them all."  Ecclesiastes, Ch. 8, v. ll.

The amorality of Ovid's  gods is  high-lighted by their very human traits of lust, mendacity, braggadocio, deceitfulness, selfishness, jealousy, anger and violence.  They are gods made in mankind's image.  That does not mean that Ovid endorsed their misconduct.

Ovid's description of them sets up  the moral contradiction between the gods' frequently cruel conduct and his sympathetic description of the pain they inflict on their victims.  His readers and listeners, both in his time and thereafter, could not help but be moved by that contradiction.  Artists like Bernini some 16 centuries later expressed the victims' anguish directly out of Ovid's words, as seen by the wonderful links to Bernini's Apollo and Daphne in the Galleria Borghese.  I was stirred by Inachus's words after he had recognized his daughter in bovine form:  Unfound you were a lesser grief than regained....And I cannot even end my sorrows with death.  It hurts to be a god, for death's door is shut, And my grief extends into eternity.

Of course in some of the stories, as in Io, the god makes right the wrong he (or she) has done.  When that happens in the Metamorphoses I am reminded of the Book of Job, wherein a good man is horrendously afflicted simply as a test of faith.  A number of Ovid's stories sound the same theme, although the party being tested is not always good, e.g. Lycaon.

   

[PatH]

Wow!  HOORAY FOR ROXANIA

You should be very proud.  SeniorLearn Latin students rock.

[PatH]

Lots of good points, Howshap.  Yes, Io is changed back, and ends up being worshipped as a goddess.  And we aren't shedding any tears over Lycaon.

It's funny about the fear of snakes.  It's supposed to be one of the most universal of fears (one I don't share).  They almost never get a good word, ancient Egypt excepted.

[PatH]

Inachus' recognition of Io is such a touching scene.  Notice that she manages to make herself known even though she can't speak, only moo, by finding another way to make words.  The importance and power of communication is a recurring theme in Ovid.

Unfound you were a lesser grief than regained

You gave me my cue there, Howshap.  I think I mentioned earlier that in his introduction Martin talks about the difficulty of translating some of Ovid's poetic devices, and that phrase is his example of the Golden Line, in which you have an adjective with its noun at the beginning and end of the line, with the verb in the middle.  This is easy to do in Latin, but almost never works in English.  Martin cites this as one time when you can make it work.  His translation is:

Lost, you were less a grief than you are, found.

Kline says:

There was less sadness with you lost than found.

[bellamarie]

Oh My Heavens!!!!   WTG  Roxania!!!!   What a great find and accomplishment.  Kudos to you and the SeniorLearn Latin students.   "An e-mail from the mighty British Museum", well I am impressed beyond measure.

I am terrified of snakes.  I seriously can not even look at a picture of one.

PatH.,  Yes, I felt so sad when Io was trying desperately to communicate it was she. 

[JoanK]

HOORAY INDEED, ROXANIA. YOU ROCK!

HOWSLIP: "I believe, they were seen as amoral not immoral, simply  because they were gods. In their interactions with men their amorality was accepted"

yes. everyday life was hard and capricious. No wonder they believed in similar gods. The one thing that gave tthem hope was that they could sacrifice to the gods, and hope that that would work.

No wonder they were scared of sounding too proud, or ignoring the gods.

[ginny]

Wow. What a joy! Our own Roxania, our own Latin student  finds a mistake in the British Museum label!!  We're ever so proud of YOU,  and the British Museum, too, for admitting it and changing it.

What a joyful day!

And just think, this is something the Books can share, too, because without this bookclub discussion it never would have happened, we don't read Ovid Book I in the classes.

Congratulations, Roxania for your spirit of investigation, knowledge,  and dedication to lifelong learning!!

Sure paid off.

[ginny]

Howard, this was beautiful: Ovid's description of them sets up  the moral contradiction between the gods' frequently cruel conduct and his sympathetic description of the pain they inflict on their victims.  His readers and listeners, both in his time and thereafter, could not help but be moved by that contradiction.  Artists like Bernini some 16 centuries later expressed the victims' anguish directly out of Ovid's words, as seen by the wonderful links to Bernini's Apollo and Daphne in the Galleria Borghese.  I was stirred by Inachus's words after he had recognized his daughter in bovine form:  Unfound you were a lesser grief than regained....And I cannot even end my sorrows with death.  It hurts to be a god, for death's door is shut, And my grief extends into eternity. And true, I can't add to it, it's so well said.

This entire section is so innovative and spectacular in Latin and contains many "firsts" in Latin.  But this story was not only Ovid's, it was done before, by an earlier Roman poet, Calvus, who built an entire epic around it.  But Ovid here does his own thing.

Joan K said , No wonder they were scared of sounding too proud, or ignoring the gods.

That makes a lot of sense. I'm not sure I ever looked at it like that. That is an element of so MANY old cultures. One wonders why. Ovid's work is quite sophisticated in terms of literary metaphor, and one forgets they aren't Just Like Us, like that disgusting magazine always proclaims: "Stars! They're Just Like Us!" (No they aren't.)

And then Pat said, The importance and power of communication is a recurring theme in Ovid.. And about that time I read "If only words would come/ She'd speak her name."

Somewhere I read and of course can't find it, but I will keep looking,  that Io here relates to every person who feels their personal identity, for whatever reason, is not perceived accurately by others. They struggle to express themselves but often feel frustrated, perhaps misunderstood, and that Io's situation is a physical embodiment, or symbolism, and overstatement  of what many feel in our over stressed and over pressured world: she's trapped in a personna in which she does not recognize herself and feels unable to get out.

I found that really fascinating. The fact that it's sort of humorous, while at the same time pitiful, her having to eat rough grass, she is disappointed with her appearance in the pond, (I feel the same way today without the pond),  "and when she tried to complain, she only mooed."

So through her own ingenuity and drive she manages to scratch her name in the sand and what's dad's reaction? He feels sorry for himself.

If you look at it that way, they all take on a different meaning. I'm quite enjoying the trope. I don't know if it will hold but it gives you a different slant on it instead of only seeing  those crazy ol heathen Romans, we can see ourselves in disguise and symbol  in it today.

And you could extend the metaphor to a lot of other things, too.

But now, what on earth is Argus? Do you have any kind of physical picture of HIM? And why has he been introduced now? I keep reading his description and could not draw him if I had to. His 100 eyes take turns sleeping 2  at a time while the others keep watch.  Are these eyes up in a fan like a peacock's tail or are they all over his head, and how big IS that head?

Nobody can say the ancients did not have an imagination. 
 

[PatH]

We should add on the rest of this section, deal with Argus, and get Io back to human form.

This section can get confusing to modern readers because the characters are called by so many names.  Kline has notes to them.  Io is called Phoronis once in Kline.  Mercury is the son of Pleiad or Pleiades, Jupiter's son, Atlas' grandson.  Diana is the Ortygian goddess, Leto's daughter.  Juno is Saturn's daughter or Saturnia.  Not all the translators do all of these.

[PatH]

Ginny, I find Argus hard to picture too.  Kline says he "had a hundred eyes round his head".  Must have been quite a fathead to have room for them all.

[ginny]

And Leto will shortly be known as Latona in Ovid, the Latona and Niobe story. The ORDER Ovid is putting in these stories might give a causal reader the wrong idea. He's got lovely stories to come. Perhaps once we get thru with this one we can embark on the Palace of the Sun King, (the beginning of Book II) and dazzle our way into a tale with a moral, and nothing to do with love, lust, or any carnal pleasure.

Strange. Perhaps Ovid is pandering to his readers who normally would be eager for  naughty doings, having read his TWO books on the subject previously. The entire 15 books contain stories that every English reader should know and his unforgettable way of describing them is magic. Countless artists, sculptors and authors have taken up HIS themes, not simply the themes of ancient mythology. I am glad we are reading this but I agree we do need to get over poor Io and peculiar Argus (why does that name seem familiar?) ..But has Ovid made his point with Io?

What was it?

Personally I thought it was unfair, I think Jupiter is unfair, to have killed Argus, who was just doing what Jupiter asked him to: watching the cow. Jupiter did that....why? To appease Juno? To make a front. But he got caught in his own front? Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we/he  practices to deceive?  That's all he's doing. It must be exhausting.

And he disliked Io's  being watched by this ancient private eye, so he kills him? Whatdid that solve? Poor Argus, doing his job, gone. So now what? Senseless. Jupiter here is senseless.

What else can Ovid do with Jupiter to convince us? Remember he compared Jupiter to Augustus and the pantheon of the Gods to the Palatine and the Roman senate early on in the composition. . Pretty clear, no?

 If you watch any of the UCONN film on Ovid, the Introduction to Ovid, you can see how Ovid is making parallels, particularly in the depiction of craftsmen (and women) to the unfair treatment they receive.

Jupiter here if I had to describe him is amoral, and he's also unfair, self centered  and vain. I loved I think it's the Introduction to Ovid D in Dr. Travis's film where he compares the other gods in Ovid's Pantheon of the Gods, his high council,  to the senate of Rome. Note the decision to flood was supposedly a council matter but it was Jupiter's decision (not theirs, but did they dare to object?)  to flood the world. That whole thing describes perfectly the condition of the Senate in Augustus's rule. Augustus is NOT who I think most of us picture, he's something else entirely.  There's a reason Classicist Mary Beard calls him "that old reptile" in her new book S.P.Q.R.

So we've been awash in seeing carnal pleasures, and, as  Barbara described, power plays,  described by Ovid in the BEGINNING of the first book. There are 15 books. What a way to start out a book, by giving his loyal readers more of what they have previously enjoyed to hook them to the greater work. Were they fooled? Are we?

 Good thing we live in 2016, huh? Where there is no pornography online or on TV or in any bookstore or in the movies. No "bodice ripping"  Romance novels. As Bellamarie said, no Shades of Grey. The people in Ovid's day had it somewhat lame in that department, for purchased reading materials. Good thing we don't have politicians playing god,  who are amoral, narcissistic, unfair, prone to making snap decisions or underhanded ones or  shady dealing...good thing OUR senate is above all that.   No sex-capades to be on the news. NO trips to the Appalachians. No...please. The next time you're in Amsterdam, a city I love, do NOT turn on the TV if there is a child in the room, that's all I can tell you.  Where we get Matt Lauer and the CBS eye and NBC Peacock, they get something a lot more startling on almost every channel. No joke. You can't get it OFF the screen and you don't know what you're looking at first. I'm not a gynecologist, thank God.

Good thing WE are  so evolved.

What can WE make of Argus? Of why he was killed? Of this story of yet another attempt like that of Apollo and Daphne, of conquering. Again turning into something else. The Pan story is so boring  Argus went to sleep.   Then why put it in there?

Is Ovid doing anything with these seques? If so, what?

[BarbStAubrey]

Be back later today - sorry for being AWOL - worked with a couple I met Monday night at a past client's home and finding them a loan was a huge challenge - have  training event this morning and will be back early this afternoon - lots of posts to read and get my head back into Ovid - as Joseph Campbell points out - like all the myth stories, a very patriarchal view of life. 

[PatH]

This section has another myth embedded in it.  To get Argus to sleep, Mercury plays his pipes, then starts to tell their story--that of Pan and Syrinx.  But Mercury doesn't actually tell the story.  Argus falls asleep at once, and the poem says "this is the story Mercury was going to tell", and tells it.

What's the purpose of doing it this way?

[ginny]

I didn't get that Argus went to sleep before the tale was told. Lombardo says:

So Atlas' grandson sat down and passed the day       Line 732
Talking about this and that and playing his reed pipe,
Trying to over come those bright, vigilant eyes,
But Argus fought hard against the languors of sleep.,
And though he allowed some of his eyes to slumber,
He kept some awake. And since the reed pipe, or syrinx,
Was a new invention, he asked where it came from.

Pan and Syrinx

So the god began...this is on line  738... and in the middle of the tale, about line 766, he says

Mercury was poised to tell the whole story
When he saw that all of the eyes had closed.
He stopped speaking and deepened Argus's slumber.

But up until that point,  the story was well under way.

People usually make a big thing of how boring it was.

I wonder if the different translations are doing something different? It's amazing what a translator can do to a story.

What do you all have on this? By the way Dr. Travis seems to prefer Melville's translation, do any of you have IT?

[PatH]

That's what I have--Lombardo and Martin--Mercury gets part of the story told.

[JoanK]

I see Argus as like a tall R2D2, a cylinder, with eyes all around his head, which can swivel 360 degrees. Poor Argus, minions and servants are disposed of easily in these myths; not surprising I suppose in a society run on slave power.

 have no idea why the story of the flute is interposed here. It's too similar to the two stories that precede it to have much dramatic affect. My reaction was "please, not again! Placed elsewhere, it might bee different. Please, lets have a break from all this fleeing from rape.

 

[bellamarie]

Do not ask me why, but I saw Argus as like the Octopus in the Little Mermaid.  But in actuality this is a pic I found

Mercury killing Argus


Not nearly as scary as I imagined, once Juno places the eyes on the peacock.

And Juno took the hundred eyes of Argus
and set them on her sacred bird: she filled
the feathers of the peacock's tail with jewels
that glittered like the stars.
   


JoanK., I am a bit tired of the fleeing of rapes as well. 

[BarbStAubrey]

We do not get far from rape do we - many women are today attempting to carve out their value and take the rape in Greek and Roman myth as an attack on women - the problem with this approach is we are then turning the discussion into weighing the historical damage of a patriarchal belief system and so we miss the analogies that rape is expressing.

Campbell says, - Rape over and over simply dramatize the will of consciousness, portrayed with male power, imposed on poignant natural frailty. Patriarchal domination gets identified with "love" in the West over and over through repetition and display. The Rape of Europa was one of the most popular classic subjects for Renaissance paintings.

Campbell than goes on to say that, rape in myth did not suggest it was about "love" but it is a masculine pubertal initiation rite... That all the rapes are actually one... that the myth is about the inner self and the role of Eros wanting to connect with others and the divine... Rape in patriarchal myths represents a spiritual quest driven by the need to regain the feminine aspect of self-hood.

His example is, Odysseus, coming from a world that he has rejected and denied the female principle, by trying to dominate it or absorb it into the patriarchal system, and now he is going to have to face the sheer force of this and submit to it.

Today, we object aloud to this domination where women were absorbed into the patriarchal system - however, Ovid did not live when women were either equal or fighting to show they were equal - our generation is conscious of what was but to read and get out of these stories what was intended I think we have to stop trying to force a patriarchal point of view into today's Egalitarian point of view. We will be offended over and over with every rape - or we can realize that in mythology rape is not a statement of "love" or an offense against women but a description of male power and the male initiation into his manhood.

Again, Campbell focused on the association of goddesses with the drive towards union.
“… Where the male come in, you have division, while where the female comes in you have union”

We also have Prof. Harris the Department of Classics in Brooklyn Collage and the Graduate School at CUNY tell us,

...There is no single word in either ancient Greek or Latin with the same semantic field as the modern English word "rape" (viol in French or Vergewaltigung in German).

The Greeks, for instance, used words like u(/brij and a)timi/a and the Romans words like stuprum and vis to refer to acts that we call rape, but each of these words possessed a much wider semantic field than our word "rape."

And many Greek authors may describe what we would call rape as an act of violence, yet do not always call it an act of u(/brij or a)timi/a (e.g. Apollo's rape of Creusa in Euripides' Ion, the rape of a wife at Aristophanes, or the rapes of young women in Menander's plays). True, ancient authors give us some information (not as much as we would like) about acts of rape and ancient attitudes toward sexual violence. But we should not assume they had a concept of rape similar to ours.

And so a difficult choice,  we can discuss the value of these stories as examples of bad behavior from the viewpoint of our Egalitarian point of view and miss the message of the stories or we can, as distasteful as it will feel, get the meaning of these stories by putting ourselves in the mindset of a masculine connection with his power. 

And I would suggest we could even take it a step further - since these stories are meant to explore our inner selves we have a masculine side just as man have a feminine side that many would prefer to ignore - I wonder are we as guilty preferring not to examine our masculine side.

[bellamarie]

Who actually has the last word in this section?

According to my estimation Juno has the final last word, because she chooses to return Io back into a goddess.

Now Io, with the goddess' rage appeased,
regains the form she had before: she sheds
the rough hairs on her body, and her horns
recede; her round eyes shrink, her mouth retracts,
her arms and hands appear again; and each
of Io's hoofs is changed into five nails.
There's no trace of the heifer that is left,
except the lovely whiteness of her flesh.
Content that just two feet now meet her needs,
the nymph stands up but hesitates to speak
for fear that, like a heifer, she will low;
then, timidly, she once again employs
the power of speech she had__for so long__lost.
And now she is a celebrated goddess,
revered by crowds clothed in white linen: Isis.

Jove begged Juno to end Io's punishment:

"You need not fear the future," so he pledged;
"she'll never cause you harm or grief again__"

Why do you suppose Juno decided to not only to end Io's punishment but she turned her into a celebrated goddess, revered by crowds clothed in white linen: Isis?  What convinced her?  Seems trite that she took Jove's word considering he had lied before and committed adultery.

[BarbStAubrey]

I particularly love pencil sketches - do my eyes deceive - it appears to me the trees have in their trunks drawings that remind me of humans and the one in the background as if a crocodile were the bark and the skin continues defining the fields behind - an interesting sketch.

We have many peacocks strutting their plumage, especially in the older part of town where some of the houses sit in a more spacious setting. Most folks have them here because they are great snakers and even take care of any rodents that are looking for a hidy-hoe to birth their spring litter. 

Joan just looked it up and will have to re-read now that I've read what a flute symbolizes - anguish - and the extremes of emotion. A flute is also an emblem of Europa and an attribute of the Sirens as both seduction and the emotions. Hmm interesting - need to see how that fits.

[bellamarie]

Barb,   

We will be offended over and over with every rape - or we can realize that in mythology rape is not a statement of "love" or an offense against women but a description of male power and the male initiation into his manhood.

We discussed this earlier, and I understand it has nothing to do with "love", but for anyone to deduce it down to say it is not an offense against women but a description of male power and male initiation to his manhood for me is ludicrous.  Jove is married, he has already come into his manhood, so this proves to not be a supportive argument, in my opinion.  And regardless of saying, it is not an offense against women, it is indeed an offense and assault, and Ovid tries to sympathize with the pain and horror the goddess is going through, even though he continuously has the attempts and actual rapes occur.  I personally will find no explanation mythological or other that will stop me from being offended by any such heinous act against a goddess or woman.

Barb we are posting at the same time....    I would love to have peacocks nearby strutting their stuff!   

[BarbStAubrey]

bellamarie - my guess is one aspect of the story is showing how when we are in rage we do not have access the our calm dignified self that is as described including the power of speech - it sounds like while in rage we are sounding like a cow lowing - all heavy with emotion.

I know when I am enraged I feel like a wild woman acting outside my self - I could see how a guy would shut you off since he is not going to punch you out as he would if it were a guy.

Two or more guys and one is enraged and there is often a fist fight or a physical attempt to calm the enraged guy where as with a women the guys want to run but know that is not what you do so they mentally shut you out - and for some I bet they do see us as an image of a cow lowing.

I think those secret images is how many a cartoonist creates a skit.

Ha ha peacocks sure make a mess with an annual costly cleaning of roof and fences -

Yes, we have discussed this and this is it - I see you are coming form the Egalitarian viewpoint - and that is a choice that this discussion can turn into the fault of Ovid's story not giving women their dignity - or we can read the stories as written with the Patriarchal viewpoint and realize also that the words used by Ovid did not even mean rape as we know it today. All the stories become analogies to our inner spirit. It may help to have both versions - my only concern is are we missing the message of these stories by rebelling against their patriarchal story-line. 

Married only means there is a union of our masculine and feminine side - not a marriage as we know it forever after in front of god and man. The stories were written by Ovid over 2000 years ago with a different set of values and morality and  they were to explain the inner self.   

[BarbStAubrey]

If we are seeing Lo as if the earth - she drinks muddy water in fact a nurturing earth as a cow she lives in and on grass with no human communication, she licks her father's hand, she would give milk as an example of sustenance to mankind - we have miss-used the earth and that miss-use can be seen a rape - and it can also be seen as a creative act as we bury seeds in the earth.

I need to read the entire bit again - now that there is a symbol for the flute I need to look into the reed pipe and how it relates to Lo. If Argus is her protector than what is the benefit of keeping him around unless Lo stays a pristine 'cow' that she then has no benefit - she has to brush up against something or someone and with Argus and his eyes all-around that is not going to happen. 

A thought Argus may be her protector but he was sent by Hera - and so Argus is an extension of Hera - her control over Lo - controlling Lo for her husband's shenanigans.  OK typical of the Patriarchal thinking - it is the women who entice the men and therefore a woman cannot be angry at the man but must seek revenge against the other women - hmm we saw that played out in the TV series Slander when the wife (forgot her name) blamed Olivia for her husband indiscretion - and only in last night's episode did we see how Olivia was a benefit to the wife and the two become friends supporting the wife writing her book and her run for the office of the president - only here we do not have Lo and Hera becoming friends but we do have Hera blaming Lo for her husbands dalliance with Lo.   

And so in order for Lo to travel the world and upon her death become the goddess Isis she has to be free of Argus - and that is arranged by Mercury. Hera also sends the gadfly to chase Lo around the world so that I guess we can say Hera is setting her up to become Isis.

[BarbStAubrey]

Wow Roxanne - a couple of days late but what a coup - and to be recognized by the museum - just grand.

Howshap I like this "They are gods made in mankind's image.  That does not mean that Ovid endorsed their misconduct." - I think I see them more as an allegory however they do show the images of man or we could not recognize their behavior could we - hmm but then when it comes down to it most folks give the Christian God the attributes and face of a mortal man and so I guess not too different. 

[PatH]

Seems trite that she took Jove's word considering he had lied before and committed adultery.

I'm glad you said that, Bellamarie, because there is a reason why she could believe him.

      "Put aside your fear.
In the future this girl will never cause you grief."
And he called as witness the waters of Styx.                   Lombardo

He swore on the river Styx.  This was a truly serious oath, one that not even a god would dare break.

[ginny]

The first time I heard a peacock I thought somebody was being slaughtered, it is the most awful shriek possible to listen to. They actually had them at Furman at one time.  At least they had them initially. They were gorgeous but one never knew if one was listening to a murder, and they disappeared.

Somehow Juno's selecting one as her symbol or bird seems logical.

LOVE those illustrations, Bellamarie!

[ginny]

Lots of great thoughts, Barbara, I do have something to say but it will have to be tomorrow. I came back IN to say that I'm sitting here with Love it or List it on and the Jimmy Dean Sausage people just did another one of their commercials featuring...da daaaa, the Sun God whom we're about to meet.

I mean that's a definite sighting in 2016. ahahaha

[bellamarie]

Aha!   Thank you so much for this: 

PatH.,

And he called as witness the waters of Styx.                   Lombardo

He swore on the river Styx.  This was a truly serious oath, one that not even a god would dare break.

You are always on your toes!!!   I missed this, and now it makes sense. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Ok reading and re-reading several times – Juno/Hera also called Saturnia because she is the daughter of Saturn is both the sister and the wife of Jupiter.

Jupiter creates fog to hide Lo so he can rape her – so if we use the Campbell, Jupiter is playing out the role of Eros wanting to connect with others and with the divine. As Odysseus, it appears Jupiter is trying to dominate the female principle or absorb it into the patriarchal system.

Then we have Juno/Hera looking into the heart of Argos, a city where there is a temple to her and in this temple is the shield of Euphorbias which was the incarnation of Pythagoras. Pythagoras teaches the doctrine of eternal flux, “You cannot step in the same river twice” He teaches the Four Ages of Man and – get this - he teaches the doctrine of transmigration of souls, metempsychosis. 

And so that is where Jupiter, following Pythagoras’ doctrine of metempsychosis turns Lo into a cow. Pythagoras is embodied in the shield of Euphorbias that is inside the temple to his wife and sister Juno/Hera.

Talk about a circle of events.

So, Lo is hidden by Jupiter in the form of a cow/Heifer and when he could not tell Juno/Hera what herd she came from so Juno, as the daughter of Saturn not only approves but, claims the heifer as a gift.

OK here we have our friend Cupid entering the scenario when Jupiter equates Amor over Shame – Amor being another word for Cupid. So if he spilled the beans and said Cupid darted him and he went after Lo than, he would have slighted the gift of the heifer to one of his own, which was his sister and wife Juno/Hera.

OK so, that seems to be saying a gift to your own is much more valuable than your shame of lying since Cupid could overcome the shame of lying, By sharing his shame of lying to the daughter of Saturn, his sister and his wife, would make the gift of the animal, the cow/heifer which was Lo, no gift at all.

So we have Jupiter making a gift to his sister and wife of his exploitation of the female principle, who he used the doctrine of metempsychosis taught by Pythagoras, who was incarnated in the shield of Euphorbias in her temple to turn lo, who he exploited to gain his own female side.

Seems like the entire story is making an offering to the female that is sought by the male principle – the male female union is exemplified in marriage and so Jupiter and Juno/Hero are brother and sister and husband and wife - strong union that is more than a sexual union but the union of male and female - however, the male wants to dominate the female so that outside this union he exploits another female.   

I was getting confused and then a thought, I wonder, if what Campbell says fits - he said, males divide and females unite – therefore, Jupiter, as a male god in a patriarchal society, must break out and divide to dominate and Juno comes along and unites. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Jupiter finally caves - as Kline says it; "Jupiter threw his arms round his wife’s neck and pleaded for an end to vengeance, saying ‘Do not fear, in future she will never be a source of pain’ and he called the Stygian waters to witness his words."

Well Juno/Hera played it cool - covered her vengeance by protecting her 'gift' that she knew was Lo - again, sounds like Olivia in the TV series Scandal. Olivia introduces Berkeley grad, summa cum laude, Jeannine Locke to the press as her loyal friend, sister and daughter who wink, wink, did not have sex with the president, thereby throwing the press off the scent that she, Olivia was the president's long time love affair.

[BarbStAubrey]

ah so... Mercury is the son of Jupiter by another wife Maia.

Driving the she-goat is also symbolic - the goat symbolize fertility, vitality and ceaseless energy. The he-goat (buck) is the epitome of masculine virility and creative energy, while the female (doe - she) typifies the feminine and generative power and abundance.

So we have Mercury stealing generative power and abundance symbolized by the she-goat - since in folklore, Pan's unseen presence brought a feeling of panic in men when they passed through remote, lonely places and Ovid says, Mercury is disguised as a shepherd - Pan is often depicted as a shepherd so that entire bit is simply saying the Mercury is disguised as Pan, who driving the feminine, the generative power and abundance to the place where men panic.

Is Argus calling to 'Pan' and his music to sit with him because he feels the female power stolen by Mercury and wants it close as he sits alone on the rocks while staying awake and vigilant, protecting Lo, as a heifer?

[howshap]

All-seeing Argus, Argus Panoptes, NSA Panoplies?

[howshap]

My computer keeps changing my typing of Latin words, ruining perfectly good (or bad) jokes:

All-seeing Argus, Argus Panoptes, NSA Panoptes?