Author Topic: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses  (Read 34459 times)

PatH

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #120 on: April 20, 2016, 10:09:38 AM »


We'll begin again, then, Monday May 2 with Jason and Medea, and this is probably a Medea that was never covered in any school, so brace selves.

We think of Jason and the Golden Fleece but our retold stories for children do not include much of the reason he managed to do his deeds: the witch (and she was) Medea.

The intro lines are in the previous chapter and they are:

....the young men sailed
With the Minyans as Argonauts, on that first ship,
Seeking the shining wool of the Golden Fleece.

And we're OFF on another adventure!
See you on the 2nd of May~

Bk VII:1-73 Medea agonises over her love for Jason     
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106435

Bk VII:74-99 Jason promises to marry Medea
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106436

Bk VII:100-158 Jason wins the Golden Fleece
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106437

Bk VII:159-178 Jason asks Medea to lengthen Aeson’s life
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106

This will be our first section to cover so we have a lot to talk about and not just a few things.




PatH

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #121 on: April 20, 2016, 10:10:13 AM »
I learned the story of Pyramus and Thisbe when I was in grade school, but had no idea until now that it comes from Ovid.  It's retold in A Midsummer Night's Dream, but you certainly don't feel the tragedy.  It's acted as a play by a bunch of amateurs who don't really know what they're doing, and it's all low comedy, with the audience making fun of them.  An actor plays the wall, with his fingers as the crack, which he tends to hold at the wrong height, so the lovers can't look through.

ginny

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #122 on: April 20, 2016, 10:12:27 PM »
The children were both outstandingly beautiful.  Perhaps each set of parents hoped their child would marry someone richer or more important, thus improving the family's fortunes.

Could be. I noticed that myself, they were both beautiful and then what? What I thought immediately was Agatha Christie. Christie if you look at her books, the characters are sketchily drawn but the reader feels an immediate connection to them, the reader fills in, as it were, the details and thus feels a connection.

But I don't feel that here. It's almost as if Ovid has deliberately held us back by some wall, there's no connection. You don't care. They are almost the Stock Characters of Roman plays. But those plays are usually comedies. This one is a tragedy.




ginny

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #123 on: April 20, 2016, 10:28:27 PM »
Barbara, what wonderful quotes, this one is so apropos, isn't it?


“Even paradise could become a prison if one had enough time to take notice of the walls.”

I'm still coming back to the walls. I was thinking of Frost today on the drive back: (paraphrased)  "He will not go beyond his father's saying,  and he likes it so well, he says it again, 'good fences make good neighbors.'"

Because they keep you apart.

That's not what happened here.

Pat said:   This story is an example of a kind of tragedy I find very frustrating; you could call it tragedy by rash thoughtlessness.  Pyramus finds Thisbe's blood-stained cloak surrounded by lion tracks.  "She's dead!  It's my fault!  I'll kill myself too!"  Hold on, Pyramus, there's no body.  Look for her.  Maybe she's dying and you can comfort her.  Maybe she's just wounded and you can save her.  Maybe she is dead, but find out what happened before you do something stupid.

I thought that exact same thing.  Maybe THIS is his "tragic flaw?"


Quote
Tragic Flaw - Definition and Examples of Tragic Flaw:

literarydevices.net/tragic-flaw/

Tragic flaw is a literary device that can be defined as a trait in a character leading to his downfall and the character is often the hero of the literary piece. This trait could be the lack of self-knowledge, lack of judgment and often it is hubris (pride)
.

It wouldn't be a tragedy without his misjudgment. I spent a good bit of time thinking about why he wouldn't look for her? But I guess a lion could have dragged her off?

He feels guilty because he talked her into it but that's not what Ovid says, he says they agreed together. But it may have been at his instigation.

, the risk taken, also the prerogative of Love

That's right on, too, Barbara! One of the themes in the Metamorphoses is the sadness of love. This one is surely sad but why did Shakespeare do it over as Pat describes in  a Midsummer Night's Dream as a comedy? He must have sensed something in it.

Of course Romeo and Juliet, which also comes from it, is not funny.  I have read there are only a few plots in the world, this is one: boy meets girl, boy loses girl...and then what?

And it's also true as Barbara says that in a crisis we may not react as we expect. I have seen three motorcycle accidents on the road and one caused the death of two people right in front of me. I was thinking of that the other day. It was so fast. You are stunned, you can't think.  I think Pyramus jumped to major conclusions, but there are people like that.  I was in slow motion, I really wonder how these poor people in these war torn areas ever survive without lasting scars. I am sure I couldn't.

Halcyon I LOVE that chink in the wall representing  a metamorphosis or symbolism. I always have the feeling that something is being symbolized in these and I've never heard that one before, super idea!

I am obsessed with that wall for some reason.

My email does work but it's an ipad and SIRI makes me look like an idiot. but TOMORROW at 4 my real  computer will be back! It's fixed and the hard drive is OK thank God, so after 4 I will be "normal," or what passes for normal with me. :)

BarbStAubrey

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #124 on: April 21, 2016, 02:04:19 AM »
I bet you will be glad when your communication machine is back to what you are used to...

OK had a thought tonight when watching a couple of actors and a director talk of their new movie - in this story by Ovid - who is the protagonist and who is the antagonist?

The Glossary of Literary Terms says that Personification: Attaching human characteristics to something that is not human. Which in the story they talk to the wall as if it was human. Therefore, it is easier to see the wall as a character. But as a character, is the wall the protagonist or is Thisbe and Pyramus the protagonists.

The Glossary says... The Protagonist is, The good person in a story.  Usually the central character. And the Antagonist is the bad person in a story who opposes the protagonist.

Do we consider Thisbe and Pyramus good or did they go around their parent's wishes where as, the wall does what it was intended and did not falter - or do we consider the crack in the wall the fault line and therefore, the wall also fails as the good character.

The only character in the story that did no harm and was as it was created is the Tiger - out of fear, because of seeing evidence that Pyramus assumed was the evidence of a dark incident, Pyramus takes his life - do we consider because he acted out of love that there is nothing bad about taking your own life?

Is fear, in the form of a Tiger, the only pure 'good' character and is the protagonist, in response to both Thisbe and Pyramus act not in their best interest - however, the Tiger appears briefly and is not a major character. 

Or is the wall, crack and all which, the crack could represent imperfection of the parents authority therefore, the wall representing the parents authority is the Protagonist and the lovers are the Antagonists whose own weakness of fear and guilt and forbidden love trips them up and they pay dearly for their disobedience?

An elongated definition of Antagonist  - "An antagonist is a group of characters, institution, or concept that stands in or represents opposition against which the protagonist(s) must contend. In other words, an antagonist is a person or a group of people who opposes a protagonist."

And then this... "An antagonist may not always be a person or persons. In some cases, an antagonist may be a force, such as a tidal wave that destroys a city; a storm that causes havoc; or even a certain area's conditions that are the root cause of a problem. An antagonist also may or may not create obstacles for the protagonist."

And so, the other way round, the wall is the antagonist and the couple are the protagonists who must contend with an institution or concept that represents the opposite against the protagonist which is the wall. Today, we can easily see the wall symbol for the parent's authority as the antagonist however, for most of history the wall is the  symbol for an institution that said, it is the duty and responsibility of "good" parents to arrange the marriages of their children. Love was not a basis for Marriage till the 18th-century Europe when love gains ground.

"For most of history it was inconceivable that people would choose their mates on the basis of something as fragile and irrational as love. When someone did advocate such a strange belief, it was no laughing matter. Instead, it was considered a serious threat to social order."

"As late as the eighteenth century the French essayist Montaigne wrote that any man who was in love with his wife was a man so dull that no one else could love him.

Courtly love probably loomed larger in literature than in real life. But for centuries, noblemen and kings fell in love with courtesans rather than the wives they married for political reasons. Queens and noblewomen had to be more discreet than their husbands, but they too looked beyond marriage for love and intimacy.

This sharp distinction between love and marriage was common among the lower and middle classes as well. Many of the songs and stories popular among peasants in medieval Europe mocked married love." from Marriage, A History.

It appears only we, who live in this time of history see the choice made by Thisbe and Pyramus as "good".  And so their action was not only foolish but threatened the social order and so, of course society had to see that this behavior did not go unpunished - like the bad guy we have grown to like in a movie who ends up dead before the law hangs him as in the story of Jessie James.

And so the metamorphous would be Thisbe and Pyramus going from bad to good by killing themselves which preserved the social order.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Halcyon

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #125 on: April 22, 2016, 09:42:04 AM »
Quote
It wouldn't be a tragedy without his misjudgment. I spent a good bit of time thinking about why he wouldn't look for her? But I guess a lion could have dragged her off?
[/color]

We also need to remember their ages......teen-agers, raging hormones, drama.

JoanK

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #126 on: April 22, 2016, 02:48:30 PM »
Exactly. Note that this story has become the classic symbol of thwarted young love through Shakespeare's adaptation in "Romeo and Juliet." No one seems to blame the young lovers for jumping to conclusions. The blame is on the parents (i.e. forces of society) keeping them apart.

ginny

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #127 on: April 25, 2016, 11:32:43 AM »
What wonderful points you've raised.

You're so right, JoanK, I think a lot of the Metamorphoses (just my opinion) is symbolic, maybe we can get all of the symbolism, maybe not. The issue of who is at fault makes for a good discussion.

The parents might have been acting in their own children's behalf (or so they thought). Who could not relate to that?

And then hormones, you are so right, Halcyon, don't we all shudder at some of the things we did? I do.

The children might have been rash and impulsive, who couldn't relate to that?

Who hasn't been?

And there's that wall again. 

Robert Frost. 1875–
 
64. Mending Wall
 
 
SOMETHING there is that doesn't love a wall,   
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,   
And spills the upper boulders in the sun;   
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.   
The work of hunters is another thing:          5
I have come after them and made repair   
Where they have left not one stone on stone,   
But they would have the rabbit out of hiding,   
To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean,   
No one has seen them made or heard them made,   10
But at spring mending-time we find them there.   
I let my neighbor know beyond the hill;   
And on a day we meet to walk the line   
And set the wall between us once again.   
We keep the wall between us as we go.   15
To each the boulders that have fallen to each.   
And some are loaves and some so nearly balls   
We have to use a spell to make them balance:   
"Stay where you are until our backs are turned!"   
We wear our fingers rough with handling them.   20
Oh, just another kind of outdoor game,   
One on a side. It comes to little more:   
He is all pine and I am apple-orchard.   
My apple trees will never get across   
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.   25
He only says, "Good fences make good neighbors."   
Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder   
If I could put a notion in his head:   
"Why do they make good neighbors? Isn't it   
Where there are cows? But here there are no cows.   30
Before I built a wall I'd ask to know   
What I was walling in or walling out,   
And to whom I was like to give offence.   
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,   
That wants it down!" I could say "Elves" to him,   35
But it's not elves exactly, and I'd rather   
He said it for himself. I see him there,   
Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top   
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.   
He moves in darkness as it seems to me,   40
Not of woods only and the shade of trees.   
He will not go behind his father's saying,   
And he likes having thought of it so well   
He says again, "Good fences make good neighbors."   
 
  I absolutely love this poem, and, unless restrained, will apply it to anything and everything.

Love that moves in darkness. How many people move in darkness , walled in by their own ...what would you call it? Lack of knowledge? Opinions? Perceptions?

None so blind as those who will not see?

And here's another wall  which is overcome to a tragic ending.

The problem is, that it's true: good fences do make good neighbors, that's the conundrum of the entire thing. It did in this 2000 year old romance/ tragedy, too.


 

ginny

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #128 on: April 25, 2016, 11:45:52 AM »
Barbara, that was a spectacular bit of reasoning about the symbolism!

And this is an interesting question:

Do we consider Thisbe and Pyramus good? The whole element of "good and bad" here is an interesting one.  It MAY have tie ins with Ovid's own experience, too, in encouraging young lovers as he did, married or not to others.

I can't figure out how the parents knew to bury the two of them in the same grave.

I can't figure out why Pyramus pulled out the sword from his own wound. I know Ovid needed that to make the blood spurt up on the berries, but that seems quite unusual to me. Who DOES that? In the movies somebody else is always pulling it out so the person can get on and get better. I don't think that's the thing here or is it? Did Pyramus regret at the last minute? We won't ever know.

An amazing thing was said about  the San Francisco Golden Gate Bridge upon which they have put,  suicide nets to stop attempted suicides.

The engineers who designed these were asked during the planning if the nets would stop somebody determined to kill themselves who were able to then crawl out. The answer was they wouldn't do it in the first place, because falling into the nets would cause injury, some of it very serious and they didn't want to get hurt they just wanted to kill themselves. I have never forgotten that. So I wonder if Pyramus despite everything, recanted at the last minute.

One thing that struck me about the characters is that they are not well defined. They are barely sketched out. That reminds me, as I mentioned earlier, of Agatha Christie who did the same thing. With a brush stroke here and there she created characters of no particular description (if the reader had to describe them)  but enough that we felt we all could relate to them, we all knew them, that takes art. I am not sure Ovid here intended that we relate completely to these characters, and I don't think we do, do you? That leads me  to wonder why we don't particularly feel for these young people.

I never liked Romeo and Juliet for that matter, nor the Midsummer Night's Dream.


I'm enjoying our leisurely yet interesting (thanks to your comments) journey through Ovid's Metamorphoses.

Are we ready to  move on?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #129 on: April 25, 2016, 01:17:56 PM »
so many of these stories have been done in a synopsis version including Shakespeare so that reading the original is a shock to realize we have been reading others preconceived notions as they shared their slant on these stories and when you read them for yourself there is so much more depth.

Yes, in this one the wall and its crack is described as well as the human characters and therefore, to me the wall and its crack is a passive character in the story.

I did not know that the Golden Gate Bridge had nets to catch jumpers - I remember as a teen, we lived on a small island that there was two substantial piers - the one folks would use as a fishing pier and at the end of the pier there was a floating platform where boats could pull up and get gas  - on the one side of the pier was an old three mastered schooner that had not been in use for years and years - many of the boys used to sneak on and climb those masts that the top of the masts were still a bit lower then the walkway on the pier - One year we got it in our heads to dive off the side of the pier just past the schooner so we did not risk hitting it - I remember the first dive I took which was at least as high as a 4 story building my legs wanted to crumble and I had all I could do to stay straight so I would not hit the water and hurt myself - from then on I thought anyone jumping off a bridge had a lot of time on the way down to think of how their body was responding and if they were not an experienced swimmer, as we were, they would not know the damage they were heading for because controlling the body to avoid damage when hitting the water took a lot of effort.

In recent years when I thoughts of 9/11 slip into my consciousness I still wonder falling from a great height like that if those who jumped were dead before they hit the ground. There were times when I was standing at the edge of some great height and would think how easy it would be to take that step - almost as if something was drawing me and yet, I have never had any thoughts of suicide - the idea of killing yourself with a sword seems brutal but I wonder if using a sword was such an everyday occurrence that it was like the pull of a great height making it seem easy to take that step.

The concept of being locked in a room for me gave the story an out of world fantasy story - can you imagine really what that would mean with no indoor plumbing and who brought them their food - no exchange with the outside world, no music or books -  the media brings us more information about what happens to people in isolated confinement so no wonder once out of confinement fears were exaggerated, but more their isolation sounds too much like punishment rather than simply keeping them apart. I think this is one story we just cannot dwell on the particulars but rather on the over all arc of the story.

Well looking forward now to reading and discussing our next story. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #130 on: April 25, 2016, 01:45:05 PM »
We'll begin again, then, Monday May 2 with Jason and Medea, and this is probably a Medea that was never covered in any school, so brace selves.

We think of Jason and the Golden Fleece but our retold stories for children do not include much of the reason he managed to do his deeds: the witch (and she was) Medea.

The intro lines are in the previous chapter and they are:

....the young men sailed
With the Minyans as Argonauts, on that first ship,
Seeking the shining wool of the Golden Fleece.

And we're OFF on another adventure!

See you on the 2nd of May~





Bk VII:1-73 Medea agonises over her love for Jason     
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106435

Bk VII:74-99 Jason promises to marry Medea
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106436

Bk VII:100-158 Jason wins the Golden Fleece
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106437

Bk VII:159-178 Jason asks Medea to lengthen Aeson’s life
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106

This will be our first section to cover so we have a lot to talk about and not just a few things.




BarbStAubrey

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #131 on: April 28, 2016, 06:03:57 PM »
Why Did China survive for over 2000 years while the Roman Empire did not?

During the First Balkan War in 1912 the Greek navy captured the island of Lemnos from the Ottoman Empire and promptly sent soldiers to every village and stationed them in the public squares. Children from all over the island ran to see what these so called Greeks looked like.

    "What are you looking at?" one of soldiers asked. "At you Greeks" one of the children replied. "Are you not Greek yourselves?" said the soldier. "No, we are Romans" replied the child.

The above story was told by Peter Charanis, a well known historian, himself born in Lemnos in 1908. At that time, more than half of all Greeks still identified themselves as Romans and lived outside the official Hellenic Republic, in the Aegean, Thrace, but mostly in Asia Minor.

In the following decade, as the Hellenic Republic expanded and encompassed those areas as well (and eventually lost them in 1923), every child was taught to think of itself as Greek, not Roman. Thus ended the world's most ancient national identity, over 2700 years old since the founding of Rome.

However, if the original author is inquiring as to why there is a Chinese nation-state in existence today but no Roman nation-state, then the answer interestingly enough may be found in medieval and modern Greek history.

The gradual collapse of the western half of the Roman Empire forced the remaining East to redefine itself by a predominantly Greek population. Indeed, Roman citizens in the Middle Ages would commonly refer to themselves as Greeks as well as Romans and call their land Greece and Rome (Romania) alike.

This relatively homogeneous state with a sense of common identity among the people, stood in stark contrast to the earlier massive multi-ethnic Empire.

This is the defining characteristic of nationalism, which was growing all over Europe during the middle ages and eventually culminated with the French Revolution in 1789 and the world's first nation-state, France. In Greece proper and Asia Minor however, the totalitarian rule of the Ottoman conquerors hindered Roman nationalism from maturing and prevented it materializing in a Roman nation-state.

When the Ottoman Empire began dissolving in the early 19th century, the Roman people came together and finally did form their nation-state, which they named Greece instead Romania which was the de facto name the people used.

This break in tradition is attributed to the Renaissance on the one hand, which gave birth to admiration of the Classic era, and the increased reliance on the Great Powers for help on the other, who frankly found the prospect of aiding the descendants of Pericles and Leonidas far more appealing than helping the descendants of Basil and Constantine.

More importantly, by identifying themselves as Greeks, they renounced their claims to all and any Roman lands and titles their forefathers held, which put the great monarchs of Europe a little bit more at ease and inclined to help.

Still, once the political integrity of this newborn state was no longer at stake, the Greeks began a series of all out wars against the Ottomans anyway, in an attempt to reclaim all remaining Greek speaking territories in Asia Minor. Had they been successful, the final form of modern Greece would look surprisingly similar to the medieval Roman Empire on a map (The above is a real map published by the Hellenic Republic in 1920).
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #132 on: May 01, 2016, 02:13:41 PM »
I didn't get around to reading about Thisbe and Pyramus, but I sure liked reading the discussion.

Don (Radioman) just played Saint Sean's Phaeton on his weekly classical music show; it reminded me to look in on the discussion again.

I am not going to read Jason and Medea since we already covered it in Latin class. It isn't one of my favorite stories, but I'll be peeking in on the discussion.

JoanK

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #133 on: May 01, 2016, 05:05:09 PM »
t's y least favorite story oo, but I'm interested to see his take on it.

ginny

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #134 on: May 01, 2016, 08:05:56 PM »
I thought perhaps I would begin tonight with a few thoughts to get us launched tomorrow  on Medea and Jason and I see that this story is not a fave with the group at hand, why not?

What is it about it that you dislike? Medea's ceaseless whining?

I thought also in our time honored way of discussing a book that it might be fun  instead of having questions just to talk together about what WE see in it and what strikes us the most initially in this first section. I read the Kline this time and enjoyed it very much, he's got a way about him, doesn't he?

Here's a Greek hero that needs a woman to accomplish his labors, that's interesting. Very. Not much done, was it?

And here's Medea, who has the first dramatic soliloquy in the Metamorphoses, and it's about her feelings and love. Here Medea is, as Anderson put it, "a victim of her own passions, not [a] helpless target of amoral deities."

In addition Medea was Ovid's favorite character and he even wrote a play about her which is lost.

So given all that, what do YOU think of her so far?

PatH

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #135 on: May 02, 2016, 12:13:38 AM »
Medea was Ovid's favorite character?  Wow, I'll have to think about that one.

I'll be here tomorrow, but since I'm in Portland, OR, at the moment, my bright andearly is lunchtime formost of you.

Frybabe

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #136 on: May 02, 2016, 06:47:06 AM »
I guess I am just not into stories about women getting used and abused and then dumped. I guess the Greeks and Romans weren't much into happy endings, especially for women, when it comes to drama. There were parts of it I liked, but as a whole? No.

I liked Iphigenia (Euripides) better. If I remember correctly, we saw some courage and, eventually, some revenge.

Halcyon

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #137 on: May 02, 2016, 08:43:45 AM »
Medea certainly was no shrinking violet.  She knew what she wanted and used all her powers to get it.  She was more powerful than Jason and he did keep his promise by marrying her but did that mean that he truly loved her?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #138 on: May 02, 2016, 09:46:41 AM »
but I thought he did marry her and she was responsible for Jason's success and he acknowledges that she was the one who allowed him to be successful... When he goes home to his parents with his wife finding his father very aged this sentence...

"Then Jason, his son, said ‘O my wife, to whom I confess I owe my life, though you have already given me everything, and the total of all your kindnesses is beyond any promises we made, let your incantations, if they can (what indeed can they not do?) reduce my own years and add them to my father’s!’ He could not restrain his tears. Medea was moved by the loving request, and the contrast with Aeetes, abandoned by her, came to mind.

I am not a seeing what you see Frybabe - how is Media "used and abused and then dumped."

It was Bacchus who wanted to use the powers of Media, not Jason,   "Bacchus saw this wondrous miracle from heaven’s heights, and realising from it, that the Nymphs of Mount Nysa, who had nursed him, could have their youth restored"

Media saw that the daughter of Jason's half brother was disingenuous and set her up to kill her father rather than restore him as Media had restored her grandfather - Media says, "You father’s life and youth are in your hands. If you have any filial affection, if those are not vain hopes that stir you, render your father this service, banish old age with your weapons, and drive out his poisoned blood with a stroke of the iron blade!" And they both proceed to use their blades with Media actually slitting his throat.

There was no explanation in this part of the story why Media joins in the killing of Pelias but it has to do with him driving Iolchos from his throne in the city from which the Argonauts sailed. Sounds like loyalty to Jason but misplaced - "When Jason, the son of the dethroned King of Iolchos, was a little boy, he ... King Æson, had been deprived of the kingdom of Iolchos by Pelias, who would also have killed Jason, had he not been hidden in the Centaur's cave."

Media "would not have escaped punishment had she not taken to the air, with her winged dragons"

Evidently Jason is quick to remarry - "After Jason’s new bride Glauce had been consumed by the fires of vengeful Colchian witchcraft and both the Isthmus’s gulfs had witnessed flame consuming the king’s palace, Medea impiously bathed her sword in the blood of their sons."

Media finds her haven "It was Aegeus who gave Medea sanctuary there, damned thereafter by that one action: and not content with taking her in, he even entered into a contract of marriage with her."

Media seems to have known what was in the heart of duplicity added to her own revenge she acts and escapes punishment, remarries and goes on with her life or whatever it is that the gods experience.

I also think to read these stories and find within ourselves these characters in the form of our feelings, our weak and strong thoughts that are part of our self-esteem. At times we make choices that come from our weakness and other times our strength and still other times the feelings of power, revenge, caring, inquiry that leads to increased skill. At times we try to kill off the aspect of ourself that we do not like and go through all the steps to change etc.  So that taking these gods at face value I think is like reading a fairytale rather than, opening ourselves to accepting human nature, more easily seen and understood by reading these stories.   
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #139 on: May 02, 2016, 10:24:00 AM »
I guess I am just not into stories about women getting used and abused and then dumped. I guess the Greeks and Romans weren't much into happy endings, especially for women, when it comes to drama. There were parts of it I liked, but as a whole? No.

I liked Iphigenia (Euripides) better. If I remember correctly, we saw some courage and, eventually, some revenge.


Where do you see that in Ovid's story, Frybabe?  Nobody beats Ovid's Medea for revenge, good heavens!! I've never seen anything like her for revenge.

ginny

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #140 on: May 02, 2016, 10:58:57 AM »
Halcyon I agree with you, Medea certainly was no shrinking violet.  She knew what she wanted and used all her powers to get it.  She was more powerful than Jason and he did keep his promise by marrying her but did that mean that he truly loved her?

What a Pandora's box that one opens up. I am not sure why we expect the ancient stories to be like Cinderella. Of course they ARE when Walt Disney does them but if you've ever noticed, Disney scares the pants off kids.

If you all have not seen Jim Henson's work you might need to hold on to your chair, yes the Muppet Man did a series on Orpheus which is absolutely horrifying, gave me nightmares for weeks and so did his Daedalus and Icarus. And I am not a child.

Medea is a powerhouse and yet, she's waylaid by love.  She's...what is she in the opening monologue? She drives me CRAZY with her whining, she really does, I can't stand it. The woman is like no other and yet she's flummoxed by "love." She even asks herself IS this what's called love? (That was a nice touch).  We can see why Cupid and his arrows can bring down the mighty, it sure does with her.

I was surprised in reading this passage last week with one of my face to face classes that a couple of people took up for her, after all she IS losing everything. She does face turning her back on her father, and brother, family and home. She's a perplexed maiden at this point.

Would you describe her that way?  But boy howdy she's not the innocent maiden for long.

(Can you not see that coming tho? If he leaves with another, let him die, the ingrate!) hahaha Is THAT love or something else?

ginny

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #141 on: May 02, 2016, 11:11:55 AM »
I thought this was a great point, Barbara: but I thought he did marry her and she was responsible for Jason's success and he acknowledges that she was the one who allowed him to be successful... When he goes home to his parents with his wife finding his father very aged this sentence...

We really don't get into the ramifications of his request but I'm glad you mentioned it because it suddenly makes me see something I didn't. And when we get here, we need to look at HER metamorphosis and what caused it.  Good point.

My gosh, what a question he asked her!

And this is beautiful: I also think to read these stories and find within ourselves these characters in the form of our feelings, our weak and strong thoughts that are part of our self-esteem. At times we make choices that come from our weakness and other times our strength and still other times the feelings of power, revenge, caring, inquiry that leads to increased skill. At times we try to kill off the aspect of ourself that we do not like and go through all the steps to change etc.  So that taking these gods at face value I think is like reading a fairytale rather than, opening ourselves to accepting human nature, more easily seen and understood by reading these stories. 

That's a wonderful point. The characters in fiction (which this is) often embody our own feelings and we can then relate to them. I think that's why a lot of people read, period. To find themselves in the characters, and to be able to identify with the characters. I thought I had never had that need, but boy Medea gets on my last nerve with this whining and complaining  and vacillation so maybe all this time I have been wrong and I AM relating to it, actually.

We have fairy tales in 2016 too. One has spawned a best selling series of books concerning witches and warlocks, in Harry Potter.

I did notice she wanted a pre-nup. Now that, I thought was funny. Or is it? Is it sad?

Does anybody here feel any empathy for her at all in these opening lines? Why or why not?

PatH, why would Ovid's liking Medea  surprise you?

 

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #142 on: May 02, 2016, 11:48:33 AM »
Mea Culpa. Too early in the morning. I must be confusing her with another story. I did think I remembered Jason abandoning her after he got what he wanted, though. Maybe I ought to read it again. I hate it when I remember things wrong.

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #143 on: May 02, 2016, 12:32:48 PM »
It's not so obvious in this telling, but after some years Jason did leave Medea to marry someone else.  That's why she killed their children in revenge.  He seems to have treated her properly up to that point, though.

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #144 on: May 02, 2016, 01:25:23 PM »
Pat, I read that too.

I don't know how accurate this is but the following is taken from:Document belonging to the Greek Mythology Link, a web site created by Carlos Parada, author of Genealogical Guide to Greek Mythology
Characters • Places • Topics • Images • Bibliography • PDF Editions
About • Copyright © 1997 Carlos Parada and Maicar Förlag.

Having been expelled from Iolcus, Jason and Medea settled in Corinth, where they are said to have lived happily for ten years. But then Jason, having grown weary of being married to a foreign sorceress, felt ready for a younger and more representative wife. He found her in Glauce , daughter of King Creon  of Corinth. But this sort of humilitation and betrayal was more than Medea could bear, and consequently she prevented the new marriage by causing the death of both princess and king in one of the following ways: Pretending that she had accepted her husband's decision, Medea sent to Glauce , as a wedding present, a bridal robe steeped in poison, and when the girl put it on, she caught fire. Creon  then, tried to rescued his daughter, but died in the attempt. Others say that the king fell upon her daughter's corpse and could not separate from her, as his flesh was torn from his bones when he tried to rise. And still others say that Glauce  died when she threw herself into a well in the belief that its water would be a remedy against Medea's poison. It has also been told that when Medea saw that she, who had been Jason's benefactress, was treated with scorn, with the help of poisonous drugs, made a golden crown, and bade her sons give it as a gift to their stepmother, who, having taken the gift, was burned to death along with Jason and Creon. Apparently, the whole palace was on fire, when these events took place.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #145 on: May 02, 2016, 01:50:53 PM »
Did not occur to me she killed them because he remarried since she left first flying with her dragon all over what was Greece and parts of nearby territory when she escaped after having been a party to killing Pelias

"She would not have escaped punishment had she not taken to the air, with her winged dragons. Through the high sky, clockwise, she fled,"

aha great Halcyon to fill out the story of what happened after she does all that flying to the Aegean, the Cyclades, the Peloponnese, Aetolia, and Arcadia, to finally Corinth - so it took 10 years.

Unless there is a magic to how children are born that took a couple of years and the boys do not appear to be babies "Medea impiously bathed her sword in the blood of their sons." Aha again so the explanation you found Halcyon does say the sons are hers and Glauce is their step mother --- according to the Kline annotations he says the sons were hers "There she kills Glauce her rival, and then sacrifices her own sons, before fleeing to Athens where she marries King Aegeus."

Well a witch she is - I guess the original witch - she does not die - she vanishes in a mist conjured by her magic spells. Do you think she resurrected during the middle ages when witches not only were famous for their herbal brews and boiling pots of strange 'stuff' but they were supposed to kill off folks who probably died naturally and with no idea how, it was easy to call it witchcraft. Hmm was Medea the prototype for Snow White's step mother do you think?
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #146 on: May 03, 2016, 09:40:41 AM »
I'm going to go back to the first chunk of the story, 1-73, Medea agonizes over her love for Jason.  This isn't whining, it's a genuine internal struggle between love and duty.  It's her duty to follow her father's wisheshelp him guard the fleece, go along with whatever plans he has for her,  NOT to circumvent his plans and run off with some stranger.  But love says otherwise.  She doesn't even know if it's love or lust or what, all she knows is that it's so powerful that she thinks some god must have had a hand in it.

So she wrestles back and forth, and finally, down at the temple of Hecate, duty wins, and Cupid lowers his bow.

Then Jason walks by, looking particularly handsome, and poof!  Duty flies out the window.  She will help him.

ginny

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #147 on: May 03, 2016, 10:40:36 AM »
We don't go beyond the first bit, do we, where Jason asks her to help his father not age and regain his youth.   That's all I can talk about this time anyway.

I saw a wonderful cartoon about that in the New Yorker a couple of weeks ago, a doctor  is having a consult and he says to the woman, I can't make you look younger but I can make you look as if you've had expensive plastic surgery. hahhaa

Love that background, Halcyon, and Barbara, that's very useful! Because Ovid seems to be choosing very carefully what he wants to say about this myth and what he doesn't.

Pat, I  think it's really interesting how differently people see her deliberations here. Apparently it was quite startling when it was done, but today we're familiar with somebody in the throes of love, from soap operas, where not only women but men freely ruminate about just about everything. I'm  trying to decide what to do. Should I or shouldn't I? I'm giving up a lot if I go with him, I could marry somebody here. What to do?

It IS typical of somebody in first love, especially somebody young. He's nailed that.

The lines here I see the better things and I approve them but I go after what is worse are the most famous lines in Ovid and have been quoted since by many famous men. This dichotomy of being able to realize what one should do and then not do it is familiar to anybody on a diet.

But that's not what she's talking about.

And this "sensitivity" to women's feelings apparently indicates Ovid is in tune with the powers of love and understanding of women.

I find it interesting as she deliberates, however, what comes out of those deliberations. Oh I can't decide what to do changes pretty rapidly into so if he is that ungrateful let him die.

Even for 2016 that's a bit...er...off kilter?  Sort of along the thinking of Jodie Arrias. Or is it normal?

I find it fascinating to see her "other side," which the stress of her deliberations seems to bring out, I guess because in the next section she transforms from an innocent maiden into a witch/ sorceress/ say what you will.

I also thought the expression, "I am born of a tigress," I will admit, the Latin says,  that I was born of a tiger.... was electric. The first thing I thought of was that Tiger Mother book that came out a couple of years ago. Did any  of you read it?

I wonder when you get right down to it,  how she can win with either choice?


BarbStAubrey

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #148 on: May 03, 2016, 11:40:51 AM »
Sure nails the limitation of choice - either carry out the father's wishes or live your life from your passion - seems like this is the question of today with SO MANY find your passion and work from your passion TED talks and books written. Today's focus appear to be, find meaning in your life by realizing your individual passions - on and on - as if responsibility is now as obsolete as a Victorian button down collar.

And yet, there are many good insights into how, if we live with responsibility as our focus, denying our natural passion we end up sabotaging ourselves. We are told how we make up for the loss of self by giving into alternative activities like eating too much, drinking too much, not developing good relationships, being co-dependent, loosing our ability to feel many emotions including compassion, loyalty even love.

I can see that for Medea - I think when she gives her all to revenge Justin's childhood loss by assisting in the killing of Pelias - it is as if her flying from pillar to post all over the Aegean and other sites she is actually flying from herself and yet, attempting to reconnect with herself through memory of place. Today we would say she had lost her soul. She had lost her feelings except the feelings of revenge so that her life became a fireball of destruction to even destroying her own children.

Is that it - we read today about destroying our inner child, often only to appease another because, we want their love - if we are denied love then, any love offered will suffice so, we give up ourselves for the love of another - hmm back to responsibility versus passion - few of us are taught to be responsible to ourselves and our passions - instead, we are taught to be responsible to what society believes is 'right' and, we still function as King Author questioned - 'right' means 'might'...and we know how that leads to the stories of might clashing with might for superiority from within a home to world power and domination.

Wow so, like a spiral we are still caught in the maelstrom of passion versus responsibility and to whom do we owe our responsibility. How do we balance honoring our inner passions versus, being all that is expected that allows us to receive the love of another as well as, to have the opportunity to love another.

I've been questioning the concept of "live from your passion" that is the mantra of folks like Steve Jobs where as, Mark Cuban says, "Don’t follow your passion; follow your effort." hmm sounds like a similar choice that Medea wrestled with over 2000 years ago.   
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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #149 on: May 03, 2016, 02:34:20 PM »
Quote
Oh I can't decide what to do changes pretty rapidly into so if he is that ungrateful let him die.
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This may be just be her way of rationalizing her argument to stay and do her duty.  Kind of blaming him if she stays.

Quote
I wonder when you get right down to it,  how she can win with either choice?
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I don't think she did win in the end.  She picked love and eventually he picked another woman.

ginny

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #150 on: May 03, 2016, 04:26:54 PM »
Just for fun to see how differently Ovid starts his Jason from the normal sequence:

http://www.mythweb.com/heroes/jason/jason01.html

PatH

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #151 on: May 03, 2016, 05:49:55 PM »
That's amusing.  Ovid seems to do a lot of this--taking one segment of a well-known story and concentrating on it.  In this case, the whole first part is summarized in compressed form, mostly strings of names that make no sense if you don't already know, which Ovid's readers did.

And Medea was right to suspect some god of making her fall in love.  Hera/Juno, acting through Aphrodite/Venus, was responsible.

marcie

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #152 on: May 04, 2016, 11:41:10 AM »
Barbara, your point about how these myth-stories about gods and witches and magic work for us struck a chord with me. You say "I also think to read these stories and find within ourselves these characters in the form of our feelings, our weak and strong thoughts that are part of our self-esteem. At times we make choices that come from our weakness and other times our strength and still other times the feelings of power, revenge, caring, inquiry that leads to increased skill. At times we try to kill off the aspect of ourself that we do not like and go through all the steps to change etc.  So that taking these gods at face value I think is like reading a fairytale rather than, opening ourselves to accepting human nature, more easily seen and understood by reading these stories."

A friend of mine is taking a class on Medieval Romance-literature. She's reading a book by Geraldine Heng, "Empire of Magic: Medieval Romance and the Politics of Cultural Fantasy."  In the book Heng says that romance literature didn't really have a beginning. It was renewed in medieval times by the social milieu and incidents during the Crusades. I see a comparison with Ovid's stories which I had not thought of in terms of "romance."

This definition of "romance" could fit the Jason and Medea story. "The focus of romance is the psychologically flawed and un-self-aware individual hero on a quest or journey….The female characters of romance…are sometimes peripheral objects of exchange between men, sometimes the goal of the quest, sometimes catalysts to disaster as temptresses, and sometimes the ultimate reward for the ennobling behavior they elicit from the knightly protagonist. Antagonists are either monsters—giants, mythical beasts…or pathological version of the self." http://omnilogos.com/medieval-europe-814-1450-literature/

The following part of Heng's book is what I see in your post, Barb. "romance represents a medium that is neither wholly fantastical nor wholly historical, but in which history and fantasy collide, the one vanishing into the other, almost without trace, at the location where the advantage of both can most easily be mined. For romance does not repress or evade the historical—as has sometimes been claimed—but surfaces the historical, which it transforms and safely memorializes in an advantageous form as fantasy." The violence of family usurpers to the throne, the killing of children, individuals crossing family boundries and siding with strangers or former enemies... are events that were occurring in the time of Ovid and continue to occur. Heng's work posits that framing violent or taboo-breaking historical events in the setting of "fantasy" (heroes, gods, magic, dragons, etc) transforms them and enables us to look at them and learn.

Whether or not we want to think of Ovid's stories as "romance," I think that the idea of transforming violent historical events  by placing them in fantastical settings so that we are able to bear looking at them is a useful one in interpreting the stories.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #153 on: May 04, 2016, 02:24:12 PM »
Wow - fabulous - never thought but yes, I can see how it is easier to look at behavior when it is in the form of fantasy - sorta as we attempt to teach children by having characters play act out the unacceptable behavior and a hero/heroine comes along and shows how to handle the unacceptable.

OK trying to parse the quote -

"The focus of romance is the psychologically flawed and un-self-aware individual hero - the word hero - is that suggesting the flawed character is the masculine partner? on a quest or journey….I am assuming the quest or journey may not involve miles to travel but it could even be an inner journey which I guess would be described as a quest - not sure that in the story of Eloise and Abelard there was a journey although at that time in history he was flawed for allowing himself, a monk to fall in love and the other I am thinking of is the may whose quest was justice or understanding of life as in the quest of many philosophers but then a quest may be broader and I am attempting to be too specific - The female characters of romance…are
sometimes peripheral objects of exchange between men,
sometimes the goal of the quest,
sometimes catalysts to disaster as temptresses, and
sometimes the ultimate reward for the ennobling behavior they elicit from the knightly protagonist.

Antagonists are either monsters—giants, mythical beasts…or pathological version of the self."


Antagonists - a person who actively opposes or is hostile to someone or something; an adversary. Seems to me we see more romances that have human adversaries like parents or society's expectations. Do you think these human adversaries are really pathological versions of the lovers that is really reflecting their own inner hesitation or giving them a cause to rebel against?
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #154 on: May 05, 2016, 08:53:49 AM »
hahaha look Marcie what the Guardian put out today - right in line with Antagonists are either monsters—giants, mythical beasts…

http://www.theguardian.com/childrens-books-site/2016/may/05/top-10-dragons-in-fiction?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Bookmarks+base&utm_term=170633&subid=2902654&CMP=EMCBKSEML3964
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marcie

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #155 on: May 05, 2016, 11:34:11 AM »
Thanks for the link to the dragons, Barbara. Yes, very timely! I think there is a lot of symbolism in most fantasy and myth that is rich enough--layered enough-- to speak to us differently at each re-reading.

I think in the Jason and Medea story, Ovid uses particularly descriptive, almost soaring, language to portray and evoke passionate emotions. I think  early on his description of Jason's encounter with the bulls is wonderful: "The next day’s dawn dispelled the glittering stars. Then the people gathered on the sacred field of Mars and took up their position on the ridge. The king was seated in the middle, clothed in purple, and distinguished by his ivory sceptre. Behold, the bronze-footed bulls, breathing Vulcan’s fire from nostrils of steel. At the touch of their heat the grass shrivels, and as stoked fires roar, or as broken limestone, that has absorbed the heat inside an earthen furnace, hisses explosively, when cool water is scattered over it, so the flames sounded, pent up in their heaving chests and burning throats. Still the son of Aeson went out to meet them."  I could really envision the scene.

Are there other passages that struck any of you as particularly "poetic"?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #156 on: May 05, 2016, 12:00:26 PM »
Best description for a Texas summer day when temps start the day at 98 and quickly hit triple digits. The sun coming up is like the fire of the blacksmith hitting the anvil that is the parched earth. The grass shrivels and the limestone that we live on west of the Balcones fault absorbs the heat so that if a quick rain blows in it looks like steam rising all around us.

Behold, the bronze-footed bulls, breathing Vulcan’s fire from nostrils of steel. At the touch of their heat the grass shrivels, and as stoked fires roar, or as broken limestone, that has absorbed the heat inside an earthen furnace, hisses explosively, when cool water is scattered over it,

I love the first sentence - The next day’s dawn dispelled the glittering stars.

Another lovely - Three nights were lacking before the moon’s horns met, to make their complete orb. When it was shining at its fullest, and gazed on the earth, with perfect form...  through midnight’s still silence. Men, beasts, and birds were freed in deep sleep. There were no murmurs in the hedgerows: the still leaves were silent, in silent, dew-filled, air. Only the flickering stars moved.


“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #157 on: May 05, 2016, 11:15:56 PM »
"Three nights were lacking before the moon’s horns met, to make their complete orb. When it was shining at its fullest, and gazed on the earth, with perfect form...  through midnight’s still silence. Men, beasts, and birds were freed in deep sleep. There were no murmurs in the hedgerows: the still leaves were silent, in silent, dew-filled, air. Only the flickering stars moved."

Wow, Barb, that description is beautiful. The translation is so alliterative and emotive. Is the original wonderful in those or other ways too?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #158 on: May 05, 2016, 11:53:34 PM »
Do not have any Greek and although studied Latin in High School and used it off and on over the years I am no longer able to translate well enough that a Latin dictionary would have to be my companion so that the idea of knowing how the original was written I too wonder. This look at the words is an eye opener - so busy getting the story line that it is easy to overlook the skill and gift of these translators who can bring the poetry of words to their translation.

I do not think I will ever look again at a quarter or less moon without thinking of bull horns - I grew up talking of the moon when it is less than half full as being a toenail moon.

Medea really does a turn about doesn't she - knowing the Jason story of how he took the Golden Fleece I did not carefully read that bit - but just looked closer and here Medea is described as, "You also, princess among the Barbarians, longed to hold the victorious man: but modesty prevented it. Still, you might have held him, but concern for your reputation stopped you from doing so. What you might fittingly do you did, rejoicing silently, giving thanks, for your incantations, and the gods who inspired them."

So meek and proper and then with the success of her magic you can read how she grows her power with each action putting together the "potent mixture is heating in a bronze cauldron set on the flames, bubbling, and seething, white with turbulent froth."

It is when she joins Pelias’s daughters essentially sacrificing the old man - but what greater evil was he expected to carry out I wonder - we need Halcyon - I bet her book goes into the story of Pelias evil - "the more love each had for him, the quicker she was to act without love, and did evil, to avoid greater evil." From this point on Medea is the opposite of the meek, mild and proper wife. Up until this point the only one calling her a witch is Bacchus.

Seems to suggest the old adage you become how you act - so that regardless everyone was better off with Pelias gone it was still a destructive heartless act and to change fate with herbs would be seen as another destructive act so that she becomes a bundle of flying destruction worthy of being called a witch.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

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Re: New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #159 on: May 06, 2016, 12:59:24 AM »
Just hit me - that is the metamorphose in this story - the change in Medea from a meek and proper wife to this killing banshee.  Where Jason is flying high after obtaining the Golden Fleece and is at the mercy of Medea he is still around for a Bear Hunt in a later story. So his change is not near as dramatic as the change is for Medea.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe