Our Souls by Kent Haruf ~ July 18 ~ July Book Club Online

[marcie]

The Book Club Online is the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

July Book Club Online
Start date: July 18 Discussion Leader: Ella Gibbons 

Our Souls at Night
by Kent Haruf

Only 149 pages but not one of them wasted.  Haruf writes simply, beautifully, exploring human relationships; all the myriad emotions of life.  An original writer, I think it a wonderful book, best book I've read in a long time, and I want to discuss it with others, share and explore our own emotions.  Addie makes a proposal! Join us, you'll be shocked at the first page, but do keep reading. Read the entire book and then we will begin our discussion on July 18th.

[marcie]

Welcome Radioman and SoPbubble. Congratulations on your engagement. What joyful news!

Regarding "dreamlike" or "realistic," I think it's a story that has both qualities. My overall impression after reading the book was one of sympathy for Addie and Louis. Overall I think they are portrayed as decent people who have particular flaws as we all have. Their spouses and children had/have their own issues too. My initial reaction to the book was that Addie and Louis were coping with their lives, sometimes having "failures of character" (as Louis says at the end of Chapter 11) and trying to reach for something more, together.  I think that the good in them and between them outweighs the negatives.

[Jonathan]

Thanks, Marcie, for taking us back to Chapter 11, where Louis talks about 'failure of character'. Addie and Louis have been talking about Connie's tragic death while playing with her brother Gene, Addies's grandchildren. What I had missed on an earlier reading, was Addies's comment that Diane, Louis's wife 'came over a number of times to check on me. That was kind of her. I appreciated it. I was grateful to her.'

Now let's turn to Chapter 29, and the tragedy of Diane's death. Louis's account of it is heart rending. Ultimate reality. I've been there. What moved me really was his admission:

'She never really got what she wanted from me. She had a kind of idea, a notion of how life should be, how marriage should be, but that was never how it was with us. I failed her in that way. She should've had somebody else.'

Isn't life for many an endless search for the right one? How lucky I was to have found her.

[JoanK]

DON, SOAPIE: WELCOME!

MKAREN: "a lonely old woman, a passive, self-defeated man, a spoiled adult-child, a hurting child....I do relate to these characters because I have them in my family. I have worked with them. They go to my church, live in my building, walk on streets near my house, and shop in the same grocery store as I do."

Yes. The characters are one sided and idealized, but we recognize them as showing one aspect of people we know. That's why, for all of us, it's brought up questions about parts of our own lives, our relationships with our neighbors, children, spouses and significant others.

[JoanK]

I'm just thinking how closed in and mean every one around Addie and Louis is. No one is simply glad for them and their happiness. The people who know them either ignore the situation or are mean about it.

Is that the authors picture of life in this small ttown. If so, I'm glad I don't live there.

[Radioman]

 So many responses and so many points of view! As I mentioned, our engagement was received with overwhelming acceptance, so what would I have felt had the response been otherwise?  I actually expected some negative responses,so when Gene reacted
the way he did I was not surprised. Gene is selfish and cruel; to  use emotional blackmail on his mother to end her search for happiness is despicable.

Addie demonstrated her strength by opting for family over personal happiness which bears out Bubble's comment.

[ginny]

OH golly what good points!

Karen:  Even this is like real life: what we see when we encounter anyone is all we know.

  That's the problem here, isn't it? We know too much, perhaps to like them. Of course we don't have to "like" any of them, they are existing in their own world.

However, as much as I can see why they are the way they are, I don't want to be around any of them.

Me, either.

I loved your thought there about they are not going to buck up, make lemonade, etc. hahahaa  They aren't, are they? No matter how many times we shout at the book. hahaha

I have to question why I want them to.

[ginny]

Soap Bubble! What a delight to see you here!! Welcome! It was a joy to see you here this morning.

I thought this was brilliant and finally explains Gene to me:

My view on Gene:  He is an insecure character and so has the need to control others - the easiest one being his mother. This especially because he needs the security of her money but also because he is afraid of losing her.

There's Leah's fear again and Marcie's idea as well. Fear.  I'm wondering if any character here is without fear. How about Louis? What is Louis afraid of?

Aren't  the women always the stronger in life and they have to make those hard decisions?

I'd say yes normally. I've seen Addie is in control the entire story, she's calling the shots, but strong?

I'm not sure. Do you all see Addie as strong?

[ginny]

Marcie says: My initial reaction to the book was that Addie and Louis were coping with their lives, sometimes having "failures of character" (as Louis says at the end of Chapter 11) and trying to reach for something more, together.  I think that the good in them and between them outweighs the negatives.

Joan K said:
Yes. The characters are one sided and idealized, but we recognize them as showing one aspect of people we know. That's why, for all of us, it's brought up questions about parts of our own lives, our relationships with our neighbors, children, spouses and significant others..

I keep thinking of Agatha Christie's characters. She'd do a couple of words sand we felt we knew the character. When you go back and read her again, there's almost nothign there. We might know the character or we might be fleshing out the character by our own experiences.  But we're relating to them based on our own lives, and our own experiences,  each of us, in different ways, I think. Louis particularly and Gene seem to be litmus tests.

I love all the different reactions here, a perfect book to discuss! Ella really hit it this time!

[ginny]

Jonathan and Radioman, our two men of the hour here!

Radioman says: As I mentioned, our engagement was received with overwhelming acceptance, so what would I have felt had the response been otherwise?

I got the impression that Louis would not have cared and would have gone forward regardless. But Addie's loss would have been greater than Louis's. I agree with you that   Gene is selfish and cruel; to  use emotional blackmail on his mother to end her search for happiness is despicable.

Seen from your perspective  Addie does look strong as she  demonstrated her strength by opting for family over personal happiness which bears out Bubble's comment.  But I contend that the tragedy here is the way she went about her relationship with Louis in the first place. THAT to me was, and remains, odd.

Jonathan, you seem to have tempered your thoughts now that you've finished the book. I had forgotten this part, too:


'She never really got what she wanted from me. She had a kind of idea, a notion of how life should be, how marriage should be, but that was never how it was with us. I failed her in that way. She should've had somebody else.'

Again, I have problems with Louis here. Poor thing, he can't win. He bashes himself up and down and now this reader is unable to support him either. So Louis's marriage was never Diane's idealistic...he, the Knight, was supposed to supply "how life should be, how marriage should be and it's all his failure."

 I have problems with that.

I wonder what Diane would say to his thoughts now if she could hear them. Is there no lemonade maker in this  entire piece?

[ginny]

Joan K says:

I'm just thinking how closed in and mean every one around Addie and Louis is. No one is simply glad for them and their happiness. The people who know them either ignore the situation or are mean about it.

Is that the authors picture of life in this small town. If so, I'm glad I don't live there.

When I first read this I thought how is it any of their business? Why should they have an opinion  at all? If they like Addie or Louis they should be glad, right? Happy for them?

And then I thought but THEY are here in the book  representing "normal,"  right? They represent real society and real reactions?

I'm going to play  Devil's Advocate here, and I hope I can be forgiven for it but before Addie gets her halo on too firmly, I think  the way she went (notice I'm saying she) about this relationship is what has caused her problems with the neighbors and with Gene in the first place, and ultimately caused her losing what she wanted.  SHE above all other people, us included, knows Gene. She knows what he is and who he is.

Nobody in the world would have been unhappy for them (except jealous Gene, I now see him differently) had they had what  ....well how to say this....normally signals a normal relationship?  What is "normal?" A small town.  Rigid codes of conduct?

My house is full of noise. People coming and going. Lots of noise. I know I'm lucky. Last night I sat in a lull and looked at those glass windows at the dark and thought what if it weren't?  I agree the night is a different time. There are books I can't read at night, one's imagination takes hold. But starting out a new relationship with a man I don't even KNOW? Skipping the steps as Marcie said. Actually lying in a bed, a bed is an intimate thing, with a perfect stranger talking over the day? Are  you kidding? You can tell this was written only a few years ago, in our new age of dental hygiene, because he brings his toothbrush. No teeth in a glass jar here.  And all the other things which go with it.  Starting out in the bed, when we haven't talked before ever?  And yes, he IS a stranger, she knows very little about him.

I mean, come on. I don't know if the neighbors are shocked or not, they seem to find it amusing. Is that mean? It's outre behavior and not their norm.  Addie is flaunting the norm with this man sneaking in at night, she doesn't want sneaking she wants it her way. Come to the front door, I'm not sneaking, I don't care what they think, but come to the front door at night and leave in the morning. 

What's wrong with sharing ideas over dinner on the porch on long walks, phone calls, writing letters, and going home at night? What's wrong with going to the movies or out to dinner? Really, let's be realistic, what ARE the neighbors supposed to think? They are being "normal."  If Addie decided to run out naked in the street or suddenly took to wearing 3 dresses at once,  what would they say?

What should they say?  How is it their business? Unless they are concerned for her mental welfare and that would depend on how much they care about her and her welfare? When I am an old woman I shall wear purple.  Go for it. Do what you please, (I read the other day that sometimes as we see in the older person a sudden lack of inhibitions actually signals beginning dementia.) I've thought of that ever since when I do something I normally would not hahaha. And it is true you do feel freer as you age. Which I think is good.

I wish I could articulate WHY I think Addie is not being "strong" here at all with the bed time beginning stuff, or her final decision, and that she caused her own problems with a lack of thought. We all do that.

And I  include Gene in that. She of all people knows Gene. She knows him better than we do.  Should she have cared, at least tried to take  steps to include him, taken it slowly, done this differently? Would it have made any difference?

  She says Jamie is the only person (note Louis included) that loves her. So she chooses to not see Louis again.

I am seeing a word I know nobody wants me to use. It starts with a U. I think perhaps more than one character here has this trait, for whatever reason.  I don't see it as strength. I see it as selfishness, which is fine, she can be selfish.  But as a character in a book,   she backs away from her new found solution to  life  because, and she says this outright: Jamie is the only person who loves her.  That,  to me, does not signal strength.

Would you say this is a tragic ending? I bet a lot of people read this and immediately project the countless times they personally have sacrificed something they wanted for the good of others. So they see her as selfless and brave.

I don't see that happening here. I really don't. I do  think I am in a discussion with a lot of very fine, uplifting positive thinking people,  and I may  be the only one seeing the negative here.

Don't kill the messenger! I'm only playing Devil's Advocate, remember.

[so P bubble]

" I don't know if the neighbors are shocked or not, they seem to find it amusing. Is that mean? It's outre behavior and not their norm.  Addie is flaunting the norm with this man sneaking in at night, she doesn't want sneaking she wants it her way. Come to the front door, I'm not sneaking, I don't care what they think, but come to the front door at night and leave in the morning.  "

Addie is lonely and does not want to see life seeping away without feeling companionship again.  She is not usually forward or flaunting but time is running and how many years does she still have? so she jump into the water so to speak and it is all or nothing for her.
Why did she not do it gradually for Gene? Because she knows him and is sure he would stop her from the start.  Maybe shocking him will silence him ? all his life people had excuses for him, so maybe this would be different?

In the end the dare was too much, she is not sure Louis is strong enough to give what she needs. She hide the certitude that Jamie needs her protection by saying he is the only one who loves her. To be there for J. would be  her primary concern over her own selfish happiness.

People will talk anyway, even after all is ended... that is the way people are, nosy and gossiping!  Isn't that what make magazines sell?

[Leah]

so P bubble: "Addie is lonely and does not want to see life seeping away without feeling companionship again.  She is not usually forward or flaunting but time is running and how many years does she still have?"

This idea highlighted a notion that perhaps people can feel the pressure of the so-called 'biological clock' at a variety of ages - not just during the childbearing window.

[Leah]

OK, Ginny, I give: "I am seeing a word I know nobody wants me to use. It starts with a U."
Am I the only one who hasn't figured out the "U" word.   🤔
Do tell!

[Jonathan]

Will you come to bed with me? That would seem to be a rash beginning, Ginny. But of course! It's the ticking clock. For whom does it tick louder than for the aging.

Addie is in a hurry. She yearns for a soulmate. She wants to get intimate. Pysically and emotionally. She knows Louis well enough, as a neighbour and as the husband of her friend Dianne. He's a good man. 'Good, but not great' in his own words. As a teacher. And by the way, some of world's smartest students and greatest achievers come out of those small town, country high schools.

Gene? Perhaps we're too hard on him. I'm inclined to see him as Addie's own conscience.

Yes, Ginny. What is the "U" word? What a book. More twists with every reading, and just amazing what you all see in it.

[JoanK]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has no idea what the "U" word is. maybe I should ask my grandchildren -- if it's naughty, they're sure to know it.

[Mkaren557]

      Ginny, you are very right that you are so blessed to have a "full house" most of the time.  There was a time when I did; I used to wish that I would have some quiet time to be by myself.  "Be careful what you ask for because you might get it"  And I got it.  Days on end when I only talk to store clerks, servicemen, or other dog owners I meet on my walk. I have filled my life with teaching myself calculus, learning Latin, reading, everything but cleaning. I get very tired of eating, watching movies, and making decisions all by myself.  At times I am very lonesome.
      At the risk of being considered a "wanton woman" but when I read the first chapter of this book I thought,"What a great idea!"  Here is a woman who is taking charge of her life.  It isn't as if Louis is a total stranger.  They have lived as neighbors for decades.  His wife used to visit Addie, so she knows who he is and, living in this small town, probably knows a lot about him.  From the way she explained to Louis what she was asking him to do,  I believe that this is not a spur of the moment decision and had considered the town's reaction when they inevitably find out.  So, rather facing lonely nights for the rest of her life, she acts. 
      So I wasn't shocked by what Addie did.  I find the actions of her son intolerable.  I almost threw the book when he, for whatever reasons, gave his mother the ultimatum.  I wanted her to defy him and continue this relationship which I think was good for both of them.
       
 
 
 

     

[ginny]

OK here comes the U word and as I said, you are all not going to like it. But first I want to explain it and address what you all are talking about.

We're winding down here and I want to be sure there is no stone unturned. As Ella said initially (and she is out of the hostpital and getting well, hopefully she can rest and relax and not worry about a thing, you've done a fantastic job)..but she said when we run out of things to say we can stop.

This is kind of a new experiment, Ell's idea, for our Books and Lit and I have to say I've loved it. I've got something new for our last day,  whenever it is, which is also different, lots of surprises in this one.

But for now let's talk about first two/ three really issues the publisher Knopf (hopefully that's spelled correctly) put in THEIR Reader's Guide for this book.

1. Did Louis's revelation that he wanted to be a poet change anything between him and Addie? Did she look at him differently (this is a paraphrase) . Did you?

2. On page 145, Addie mentions the Denver Center for the Performing Arts production of Benediction, based on the author’s own novel. Addie and Louis discuss the fact that it’s set in Holt, the fictional town in which they live. Why do you think Haruf slipped this into the story?

Wow, I missed that entirely! What do you think of that plug? Or is it not one?

3.  In his final interview, conducted a few days before his death from interstitial lung disease, Haruf discussed Our Souls at Night: “The idea for the book has been floating around in my mind for quite a while. Now that I know I have, you know—a limited time—it was important to me to try to make good use of that time. So I went out there every day. Typically, I have always had a story pretty well plotted out before I start writing. This time I knew generally where the story was going, but I didn’t know very many of the details. So as it happened, I went out every day trusting myself to be able to add to the story each day. So I essentially wrote a new short chapter of the book every day. I’ve never had that experience before. I don’t want to get too fancy about it, but it was like something else was working to help me get this done. Call it a muse or spiritual guidance, I don’t know. All I know is that the trust I had in being able to write every day was helpful.” How does reading this affect your understanding of the book?

I thought these were worthy of their own post, so am putting it in here. I realize this discussion has a lot of green ink and I apologize for that, but at least you know your thoughts are read and addressed, I hope.  They deserve to be, they are good.

[ginny]

I was heading out of town this morning after my  post here when I hit discussions one last time and saw SoapBubble's post. I did not have time to address it then and I'm glad I didn't because I've been able to think about it all day. I think it's very interesting and lends itself to my theory of the U word. Brace yourselves.

I'm going to do responses to everybody in this one post, too.

The first thing I thought when I looked at it was, this woman (Soapbubble)  is smarter than I am because I did not see that in this, at all. And then I realized why I had not seen it. It wasn't said, it's still brilliant but it wasn't articulated in the text.  It's a conclusion of the reader. Yet I agree STRONGLY  with one of the two assertions, and it hits the very nerve that I could not articulate so I am very grateful to see it.

First off, I'm inclined to think, SoapBubble,  you are right also about Gene. It's possible that nothing she could do, no approach would have worked. And as somebody said earlier (who was that, it was good!) none of these people are going to make lemonade, they are what they are. So she can't talk frankly to her son and she's stuck, hoist on her own petard.

Jonathan and Leah! Both of you? With Soapbubble? That's three powerful thinkers and from you the biological clock? I feel like Methuselah here! . The woman is only 70 years old!!! She's ONLY 70 years old!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 70 is the new 40! WHAT biological clock?  Even if the Grim Reaper has one hand in the door, that doesn't mean she needs to run naked thru the streets, what IF she lives to be 100? This does so remind me of what I used to say to my mother. Mother, I'd say in all my wisdom, you're ONLY 86!!

I still contend that she did not have to start a relationship with Louis in the bed. NO Grim Reaper knocking on the door caused that!!! Her decision to do that cost her that relationship. Did she know that at the outset? Does that make you think differently about her? She knows Gene. I mean if we can read XX and YY into it we can read ZZZ, too.

Karen, hahaha I've thrown books across the room before, the last one was the Liar's Club. Hated that almost as much as the one by the New Zealand author about child abuse. Threw both where they deserved: the trash.

But here, what or who are you really angry at in Gene's attitude? ADDIE did not have to do what her son said. I'll get to Jamie later on. I still contend that Gene is NOT going to stay in town (where DOES he live? He's put Addie in Assisted Living in
Grand Junction, is that where he lives?)  and Addie has given up her own new life in vain. WHY can't she talk to him as one person to another? Something is really wrong with that picture. Give the dolt every cent you have, every single one, give him the house with the condition in writing that you have free access and visitation with Jamie, and move with Louis your new husband, to the BEACH! BE this free spirit you claim to be.

What Addie did didn't shock me at all.   The U word again. I'm half afraid to say it now because everybody has Addie  on a pedestal on the shelf  as a healthy example of freedom in old age. Do you all think people really CHANGE as they get older? I don't. I don't at all.

Jonathan again,  And by the way, some of world's smartest students and greatest achievers come out of those small town, country high schools.

Yes they do.  There's no doubt about that. But it's highly unlikely in Louis's case because of his sorry attitude.  Why  can't Louis take some pride in it instead of calling himself a failure in a second rate high school in a podunk town  or whatever he said back there? He put it, his profession, his life, his school and his town  down. That does not, I don't care who says it, produce students who are outstanding. It's an excuse. HE obviously was meant for better things. Don't get me started on Louis, I know we all  love him.

I am taking these characters at their word! I believe what they say. Every single  one of them. This presents itself as an Our Town simplistic kind of thing where the townspeople, good at heart (or at least not ax murderers)  tell us who they are. They are Everyman. We are constrained from saying anything about them except the execrable Gene because when we do we are being nasty or judgmental.

We can't argue with them as they are presented. We can't second guess them. I'm about to, tho. I'm about to.  I think there are some things unsaid here which  WE the reader should be picking up on.


Karen, by the way, you can always talk to us!! We're always here, and we have the benefit of being real people who meet in person and have over the years many times, so now you can talk/ type (on my IPad it's the same thing even if SIRI prints gibberish).   We're all friends here and that's not small change.

Joan K, it's naughty. hahahaha

All right, so what IS it?

[Leah]

Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we're here we should dance.
 ~ Author Unknown

My Mom lived to the age of 96 (and a half!! ☺️). She used to say something similar: Since death is certain and life is uncertain, we should dance!]

I guess my point is: Life's clock keeps on ticking and we never know if we have the Duracell battery of one from the Dollar Store.

[ginny]

Leah! We were posting together, what a hoot!! I love that!

OK the U word: I have taken these characters at their word, as I said. I have seen Addie in control since the beginning.

And then Soapbubble said:

Because she knows him and is sure he would stop her from the start.

Yes. There's the first of two  missing pieces. She knew Gene would put the kibosh on this relationship that's why she called Louis to come over and hear it for himself. MAYBE that's why she went about it as she did, too: the bed. 

And so Louis who doesn't need to be reminded that he has failed yet again and this time he really hopefully tried, is back in the dumps but hey they can still converse on the phone. And he  nicely tells her she's changed his life. He really IS too perfect.

And then  Soapbubble dropped the second shoe:

In the end the dare was too much, she is not sure Louis is strong enough to give what she needs


THERE it is. The real explanation for the end of the affair.  I agree totally with this. It's ADDIE again. It's NOT Gene, folks, it's Addie.  She used Gene to get her out of it. Do you know what the Urban Dictionary's definition of  a person who does these things is?

..... uses a friend or acquaintance
solely for the purposes of gaining a type of advantage.


someone who toys with [ the  emotions of another]  just to receive what they desire from that person

(Unfortunately the "Urban Dictionary" has so many grammatical errors I have had to edit the definitions. hahahaa)

The U word is "user." In the old sense, not in the new sense of using drugs.

Addie is a user. How do I know? Where is her compassion for poor Louis in this?  She KNOWS he feels a failure. She has SEEN him blossom, the dog, the projects with the child.  But now she feels he's not enough for HER for  whatever reason. So... he's out. Oh she still wants to chat on the phone.  I can't articulate how...annoyed I am at HER.  She's using him and that's not love. That's not even like. And he's putting up with it, the poor schmuck.

She breaks up with Louis with the explanation (to us?)  and to  him that Jamie is the only one in her family (I looked that up again)  who loves her. Why should we doubt her here? I think here she's speaking from the heart. Nothing Louis has done has resonated, he's just...a plaything. He doesn't matter. He's not family. It's all about her like it has been since the start.

Back on page 92: they are talking in the bed.

"So talk to me, she said.

Is there anything specific?

Something more about yourself.

Aren't you tired of that?

Not yet, I'll tell you when I am."

Really? No doubt who the dominant one here is, is there?


It's continual, too, it's like a drum roll. Where is Louis's pride?

Page 131:

"But you might get tired of me, too, and want out.

If that happens, we can stop, she said. That's the understood agreement for us, isn't it. Even if we never actually said so."

The "understood agreement?" Wow. Even if we never actually said so? I knew when I saw this that Louis would soon be history, if the other hints weren't enough.

She hides the certitude that Jamie needs her protection by saying he is the only one who loves her.

I don't believe this. I think she says it because she believes it.  The only one of her family who loves her.   Louis says I can be your family. She says and then what  if something happens to you? Who is she looking out for HERE?

It's all about her and always has been.

And he says you can go live with Gene.  And she says No, I have to do this now.

And then she calls him. Page 174.

"I thought we weren't going to talk anymore.

I have to. I can't go on like this. It's worse than before we ever started.

What about Gene?

He doesn't have to know. We can talk on the phone at night.

Then this seems like sneaking. Like he said. Being secretive.

I don't care. I'm too lonely..."

First to last this story has been about Addie and her feelings, wants, and needs. I'm not saying she's some kind of Vampira. I'm not saying she's deliberately done this in a cold hearted way. I am saying she's using Louis and has been all along, whether she or we know it or not.   She's been in control and is still in control. She's used Gene. This is her way.  Tears or not, heck, she makes ME want to cry but not with sympathy. Now she's in Assisted Living, ergo there will not be any overnight visits again, but she can have almost the same thing if he'll only talk to her.

It's all about her.

[ginny]

And here's another question, going back to one of the 3 new ones from Knopf:


The author Kent Haruf (pronounced like sheriff)  wrote this literally on his deathbed.

Given that, what to YOU is the overarching message he wanted to impart?

[ginny]

And here's another question, going back to one of the 3 new ones from Knopf:

The author Kent Haruf (pronounced like sheriff)  wrote this literally on his deathbed.

Given that, what to YOU is the overarching message he wanted to impart?

[Mkaren557]

The title Our Souls in the Night leads me to what I think is the theme of this novel.  Kent Haruf was dying as he wrote this novel.  At one point in the text he says that it was not yet "deep dark." Both Addie and Louis are in the "evening" of their lives.  They are both alone and lonely as the dark approaches.  Intimacy (holding hands and talking in the dark) can relieve the loneliness that comes as the light fades.  We leave Addie talking to Louis on the phone.
          "She looked out the window.  She could see her reflection in the glass.  And the  dark behind it."
And then we conclude the novel the same way we entered it--- exiting as the conversation and both lives go on,  "Dear, is it cold out there tonight."

[Radioman]

I agree with Mkaren's take on what seems to be Addie's aggressive approach to establishing this new relationship. I regard Louis as rather weak, if not indecisive. Addie recognises these traits and realises that it is she who must take the initiative if she wants the relationship to blossom.
If Louis were made of sterner stuff I think he would have been more ardent in his efforts to protect their union, even if it meant a confrontation with Gene

[so P bubble]

Louis  would be reluctant to confront Gene, first because of his own limitations, but also because that would mean more problems/animosity from Gene toward his mother.  Gene would project his anger on Addie more than on Louis although for sure he would have enjoyed crushing Louis too.
Louis's love for Andie would make him circumspect in any initiative he would take.

Yes 70 is just a number - but when you see peers around you disappearing, some even younger, it makes you more aware of the time fleeing.
Additionally, if Addie's relationship with her husband had not been the ideal one and she saw a chance for experiencing "real companionship", that would have been an irresistible temptation when being aware   solitude in old age.  At that age, gossips and "what will they say" is much less a priority in one's behavior.

Even when one does not fear the end, the  thought is present, maybe not acknowledged conscientiously.

[ginny]

Oh Karen, this is lovely and brings up a lot of the symbolism in the thing that I completely missed, like references to the "dark" and "night."

he title Our Souls in the Night leads me to what I think is the theme of this novel.  Kent Haruf was dying as he wrote this novel.  At one point in the text he says that it was not yet "deep dark." Both Addie and Louis are in the "evening" of their lives.  They are both alone and lonely as the dark approaches.  Intimacy (holding hands and talking in the dark) can relieve the loneliness that comes as the light fades.  We leave Addie talking to Louis on the phone.
          "She looked out the window.  She could see her reflection in the glass.  And the  dark behind it."
And then we conclude the novel the same way we entered it--- exiting as the conversation and both lives go on,  "Dear, is it cold out there tonight." 

Radioman and SoapBubble, what super input. I am so glad you have both joined us. I really enjoyed Radioman's take on Louis, we haven't really looked at Louis closely, at all, as a person.   If Louis were made of sterner stuff I think he would have been more ardent in his efforts to protect their union, even if it meant a confrontation with Gene

I had not thought of this and I now realize it's what I was waiting for. Addie wanted Louis to be there, you better come over she said, and I see that I was waiting to see what he would do. Maybe she was, too? Her Knight in shining armor? I thought he would, for a while.

But then as Soapbubble points out,  he was constrained: Louis  would be reluctant to confront Gene, first because of his own limitations, but also because that would mean more problems/animosity from Gene toward his mother.  Gene would project his anger on Addie more than on Louis...

And that's another good point, lovely discussion here, I am so enjoying it.  And you are also right on the 70's thing, and let's face it, the author definitely  proved that point with his own life. So not everybody is blessed with a long life or the prospect of one.

I am not sure, even now, why Haruf mentioned his own book or  production of a play on same in this novel in the town of Holt (quote a couple of posts earlier).  I wonder what this might mean?

It really didn't mean anything to me because I have not read it and did not make the connection. Is it a commercial? Is it a joke? A fun plug?  Is he saying as Jonathan did that a lot of outstanding things come from small towns? You don't have to go somewhere else to have...?

I have no idea.

[ginny]

So I'm still struggling with the "message," or if you must, the "moral, " the point of this book.

I spent a lot of time this morning reading the negative reviews of this book, and there are many among the mostly positive ones.  Most of those who threw the book across the room (believe it or not) were disappointed in the ending. They seemed to feel, in their great disappointment in how the book ended,  a need to criticize the characters themselves and the writing. Among other things they said:


1. Addie's change from a brave new person into a wimp was disappointing and not realistic.

2.  Gene's portrayal was not at all realistic in this day and age (I don't think the average age here of readers was 70 and up, by the time you're 70 you've seen or heard of a Gene).

3. There was more than one suggestion that the book gave out,  and somebody else finished it.

The feelings people voiced about Addie, I now see, are the reasons I was determined to see the U word because in that supposition  Addie is still strong, don't you see? I wanted Addie to end strong and in control.   So in the U version she still is. Is that better than her being defeated, a complete "wimp" as one put it, (is that accurate?) a turn around which was not "believable or realistic?"  Do all exciting new brave ventures HAVE to end this way?

     "Do not go gently into that good night, rage, rage against the dying of the light."

(Paraphrased and too lazy to look it up, but it does fit what I wanted to see her do). People were quite disappointed that the "fairy tale for adults" as one called it, ended so disappointingly. Were YOU disappointed?

Let's think about what the heck the book is actually ABOUT? What message, what conclusion do you think  the author wants us to take away?


IS it that people in their 70's CAN have a new beginning? If so why did the last quarter of the book let them down?

IS it that family is always first and it's inevitable?

Is this book  positive? Is it negative? What do YOU think?

[Leah]

I don't feel inclined to looking for a moral in what I read. As for themes, well, that seems to me to be a pretty personal experience. So, when it comes to assessing the characters' motives and such, I always seem to be facing myself.
Here is what I shared in a previous discussion.
It is inevitable that the roster of characters in a book or short story, memoir or biography all act as mirrors that offer opportunities to get a clearer view of all the 'parts' of myself.
I read the narrative, and one 'part' or another has a response. It could be a knee jerk reaction accompanied by any number of emotions, or a less obvious one like pity or empathy. I might be surprised by a flare-up of fear disguised as anger or judgment.
If my internal observer self is in play, I may be able to become more aware, more open, more able to perceive my own inner workings: like conflicts, assumptions, prejudices, defenses, sensitivities, among other tendencies.
I can do this all in private so when I go out into the 'real world' I can take what I've learned from the characters as I experienced them.

[Jonathan]

I'm overwhelmed by the story and by the insights posted by all of you.

From the reviews: 'One called it a fairy tale for adults.' Anonther could see it as a cautionary tale. The title Our Souls At Night is very suggestive. I would have liked 'A Sad Affair'. In any case it's Kent Haruf's beautiful swan song. The ending is perfect, right down to Addie's broken hip and Louis's impotency. The beginning was marvellous in setting the mood: 'It was an evening in May just before full dark.' Two seventy-year-olds feeling springish as winter comes on.

All the characters are only too human, and the small town setting is perfect. Just look what Jane Austen did with village life. It's Louis's sad fate to be left behind, with his memories. It still is and will always be 'Ruth's house' and 'Addie's house'.

[Ella Gibbons]

I'm just home from the  hospital and have read your posts - your wonderful opinions.  What fun it is to share ideas, particularly about aging.   Addie says she has to make adjustments in her life while she is still able.  I've been there, I 've made adjustments, it's lonely at times.  I understand Addie, she is only - what, 70 something?  I'm almost 88 and still making adjustments, I understand.  Loved this book and thank you all for participating!

[so P bubble]

"
IS it that people in their 70's CAN have a new beginning? If so why did the last quarter of the book let them down?

IS it that family is always first and it's inevitable?

Is this book  positive? Is it negative? What do YOU think?"

I want to answer that but I need some more reflection time to organize my thought.  So... it will be for tomorrow, as it is already night here!

[Radioman]

"IS it that people in their 70's CAN have a new beginning?"

Indeed they can; I'm 82 and look what happened to me.

"IS it that family is always first and it's inevitable?"

I am inclined to say no. First of all I will make the assumption that couple were raised in the Christian tradition, and in accordance with the biblical admonitions they were enjoined to leave their fathers and mothers to become one flesh.  And I'll make a poetic assumption that "fathers and mothers" could be extended to include all members of the family.  It would therefore follow that husband and wife come first and all else is secondary.


Is this book  positive? Is it negative?


I would say it is positive because it lays bare the harsh reality of the emotional cruelty of which man is capable. Sad endings do not necessarily make a book negative and I believe that is the case here.

[marcie]

 I can understand how those of you who see Addie as selfish and Louis as weak can read those traits in the story. There are a lot of specific details that Haruf uses to flesh out the characters. For me these are not the traits that I'm finding as overarching. Maybe the "dreamlike" quality in the story that some of us mentioned before is a symbolic level that brings the characters up a level to portray universal hopes and sorrow.

Karen's take on the story resonates with me.

The title Our Souls in the Night leads me to what I think is the theme of this novel.  Kent Haruf was dying as he wrote this novel.  At one point in the text he says that it was not yet "deep dark." Both Addie and Louis are in the "evening" of their lives.  They are both alone and lonely as the dark approaches.  Intimacy (holding hands and talking in the dark) can relieve the loneliness that comes as the light fades.  We leave Addie talking to Louis on the phone.
          "She looked out the window.  She could see her reflection in the glass.  And the  dark behind it."
And then we conclude the novel the same way we entered it--- exiting as the conversation and both lives go on,  "Dear, is it cold out there tonight."

I'm seeing a portrayal of the power of reaching out to another human being and making a connection. I think that the setting of the story is very much influenced by the fact that Haruf wrote the story as he was dying. He was under the pressure of his biological clock and his two main characters are also. They want to seize the opportunity for a close relationship, an intimate sharing of conversation, that they have missed in their earlier lives.  They make the connection between each other and deepen it with Jamie.

The story also portrays the hurts and sorrows of connections lost or betrayed, the death of a child, people unable to look past their own hurt, an affair. At the end we see the price of Gene and Addie's inability to connect and Gene's inability to allow others to connect.

Addie is forced to choose her grandson or Louis. The loss of Louis in her life is another way of showing the power of connections.  I think that Haruf might not have added the phone call to Louis on his own. I've read an interview with his wife that seems to say that she thought that scene would provide a more hopeful ending.  See http://knopfdoubleday.com/2016/06/28/cathy-haruf-on-her-husbands-final-novel-our-souls-at-night-an-exclusive-qa/

[ginny]

Just loving these fantastic posts and points of view, (loved that, Radioman),  and just peeking in to say I'm on my way out of town this morning but will be back this afternoon, all the while thinking over all your wonderful perspectives  (that article is eye opening, Marcie, thank you for that) and hearing what else you all have to say in conclusion. I have a strange new thing to spring on you, too.

Welcome back, ELLA!! We have missed you and are so glad you are out of hospital!


Back this afternoon.

[so P bubble]

1. IS it that people in their 70's CAN have a new beginning? If so why did the last quarter of the book let them down?

I personally thought, after Ben passed away following a debilitating illness that now I would get used to not share all my thoughts and daily occurrences on the spot.  I did get used to sleeping alone even though often I patted the bed next to me.
 Then a great friendship turned to something more, to a form of companionship with the help of the internet and YES I started to believe in a new beginning, though aware of the many obstacles or difficulties. 
If I was reluctant at first to see it as a reality and not a dream, that book really made it possible for me.

No, I did not feel  let   down by the ending, more like sad for Addie.  She  dared enough to start the relationship, but not enough to oppose Gene's blackmail. That blackmail infuriated me!


2. IS it that family is always first and it's inevitable?

That depends of each individual case I suppose.  I lived isolated - in a different country- from all my extended family.  I only met aunts, uncles, cousins, grand parents after I was 23.  So the links to them cannot be that strong as if we had memories or childhood experiences together. No bro or sis, so my friends were my family then, probably today as well.
I don't think I exactly know what a family life is really like.  So ... I am much attached to my only grandson, but then I don't expect to be in such a dilemma.

3.
Is this book  positive? Is it negative? What do YOU think?"

For me, very positive, very realistic, very true to life. It can be an eye opener in that it shows different aspects of what is happening, of the connecting threads between people.  It was written with great insight. 

Thanks Marcie for the article, it added to my understanding of the book.

In short it illustrates how I see life overall:  we each are like a different colored thread forming the tapestry of life, each helping form the image while crossing and mixing together before diverting in different directions.

Because of circumstances in my personal life, I had to live   in different countries time and again and each time  there was the painful parting with friends, routine, surroundings. It made me feel at times without roots. Thus I know the importance of connecting with others, and how that can be missed so much  when we have no alternative but to accept what fate inflicts on us.

[ginny]

Back at last, and the eyes have now returned to normal so I can see and what super posts and points, it's a pleasure to  read them again!

I'll start with Leah.

What an interesting post you put here. It's almost like a "poem should not mean, but be." I had read it before in another discussion and  that was why I had said, "if you must, moral," because I knew you did not like those. And not every story has one but most eery story has a theme. Or more than one.

don't feel inclined to looking for a moral in what I read. As for themes, well, that seems to me to be a pretty personal experience. So, when it comes to assessing the characters' motives and such, I always seem to be facing myself.  What an interesting statement this is and one like it later on.

I have a feeling that most authors want their readers to be just like this. To get swept up in the book, the creation of the book , and not bother with  the mechanical means, the Cliff Notes type analysis of plot and theme, etc., or the articulation of the  art or skill or dexterity which caused it. I know a lot of people don't care for that, some of them writers!

But when we read a book here as a book club, I personally  love the analytical approach. To me it's all about plot, characters, all the technical mechanical  things. I love Literary Criticism, I really do and once was good at it. I am now wondering what THAT means. hahahaha That doesn't mean I am right (ever) it means that I enjoy that approach. So what you're saying here is new to me, I don't think I've seen it expressed this way before. I loved that "facing myself."

Something more to think about. It's harder your way than mine.

 I think my addiction TO a book club discussion IS so that I can  see vicariously what you all  see personally in the book, because I learn from that and I also learn from making mistakes in my own assessment.  I really learn who I am from them.

[JoanK]

BUBBLE: "Thus I know the importance of connecting with others,"

Yes, you do. Your friendship has always reached out, in Seniornet and then Seniors and friends.

I have always mostly lived in or near big cities, where people are more isolated from their neighbors, and moved about a fair bit, making friends, leaving friends behind and making new ones. I have always wondered what it would be like living in a small town with the same people all my life. I was shocked at how isolated Addie and Louis were in this situation. They had known these people forever, but no one seemed to really CARE about them, except as a source of gossip. We on Seniorlearn who have never even seen each other care about each other more than they do.

[ginny]

Jonathan, poetic as always, I liked your interpretation of "Addie's house."  The house I live in is still known as the house of the former owners and we've lived here 33 years. Small towns, I guess, or what IS it about our need to preserve things like that?

There are really so many touchstones in this book, to be a short book he really notched them all, didn't he?

So you see it as perfect as it stands, I like that, too.

Radioman, that was beautiful. I can't tell you how glad I am that you and SoapBubble joined us and I hope it won't be the last time. I found this particularly interesting: I would say it is positive because it lays bare the harsh reality of the emotional cruelty of which man is capable. Sad endings do not necessarily make a book negative and I believe that is the case here.

I think Soapbubble is a lucky person.

Marcie, again a super post with great points: I'm seeing a portrayal of the power of reaching out to another human being and making a connection. I think that the setting of the story is very much influenced by the fact that Haruf wrote the story as he was dying. He was under the pressure of his biological clock and his two main characters are also. They want to seize the opportunity for a close relationship, an intimate sharing of conversation, that they have missed in their earlier lives.  They make the connection between each other and deepen it with Jamie.

The story also portrays the hurts and sorrows of connections lost or betrayed, the death of a child, people unable to look past their own hurt, an affair. At the end we see the price of Gene and Addie's inability to connect and Gene's inability to allow others to connect.


Just beautiful! The hurts and sorrows of connections, a major theme, and the reaching out to another human being. I am feeling very honored to even be in a discussion with you all if you don't mind my saying so.

The news of Haruf not having added the phone calls at night was electric!! I read the article with a slack jaw. Did you see his reaction to something she had said earlier about a character? He went to bed for 2 days. Golly when I read that I thought I sure am glad he didn't see the U word, huh?

Soapbubble, when I saw your post I thought I really hate to have to come in after that profound thing, as it should stand alone as a coda to the entire piece but here I am.

I thought this was electric: If I was reluctant at first to see it as a reality and not a dream, that book really made it possible for me.

I do wish you both every happiness, you are both spectacular, and both very lucky,  and I hope that you'll come back often and talk to us as it has been a marvelous experience.

For me, very positive, very realistic, very true to life. It can be an eye opener in that it shows different aspects of what is happening, of the connecting threads between people.  It was written with great insight.

Lovely. It's amazing how differently different readers see this book, which makes for the very best discussion.

In short it illustrates how I see life overall:  we each are like a different colored thread forming the tapestry of life, each helping form the image while crossing and mixing together before diverting in different directions.


I can't improve on that, I couldn't actually have said it.

I hope that each of you here has enjoyed this discussion. The floor is still open for any last remarks. Many thanks to Ella for discovering this book for us and to each of you for taking time to give us your thoughts, and more than that, sharing your feelings. what a rich experience. I was thinking it might be fun to give stars to the book, our ratings, so I'll add that at the very end, some frivolity in the midst of the true profundity here.

On a scale from 1-5 stars, how many stars would you give:

Our Souls at Night: 

Addie

Louis

Gene

[ginny]

JoanK, we were posting together and I am SO glad to see you because I missed your final remarks.

This is a great comment:  I have always wondered what it would be like living in a small town with the same people all my life. I was shocked at how isolated Addie and Louis were in this situation. They had known these people forever, but no one seemed to really CARE about them, except as a source of gossip. We on Seniorlearn who have never even seen each other care about each other more than they do.

Absolutely right and how astute of you to notice about Holt! I didn't. Yes surely the so curious neighbors  should have cared about them. Was it the scandal (aka the bed) or what? I still don't know where Gene lives.

When I saw  Soapbubble's post I also felt a kinship to growing up away from any extended family, an only child, moving not as much as many here,  but enough, and now living far from where I grew up. I think that's why I was so set on having a "home" my  children could come home to.

I actually think it's a benefit to move from where you were raised, however,  the different types of people you encounter, the different mores and cultures, the different size towns from large to small or small to large requires adjustment and  can't help but add to your knowledge of the world. Or so I think.

And through SeniorLearn, as JoanK has said, we can talk to people we'd never have met if we had stayed in our own towns, were it not for the internet. Benefit upon benefit.