Author Topic: Classics Forum  (Read 370690 times)

Bow_Belle

  • Posts: 1376
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #120 on: April 25, 2010, 07:36:07 AM »

Paestum, a complex of Greek Temples in  Southern Italy.

Interested in Latin Courses? Learn More About Our Latin Courses


Please share here news, clips, magazine or newspaper articles you find that would be of interest to those of us who love the classics world.




After Seven months I have only just discoved this bulletin board. wonderful interesting topics which I have spent ages reading.

I would like to add to what others have written about the super teaching I have received from Ginny! Her patience and abilty knows no bounds!  Many many thanks to you

I loved the article about Vespasian and how he is remembered still We had a window tax in this country (UK) from 1696 until 1851 and you can still see bricked up windows to this day (done to save money!) Vespasians tax however is more Bizarre than William II's !

Gay hector


Athena

  • Posts: 2722
  • Hello from Atlanta, GA~USA
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #121 on: May 01, 2010, 05:43:57 PM »


Flora Fresco, Castellammare di Stabia, Varano Villa Arianna
First Half of the First Century C. E.


Today is May Day. Even though spring officially begins in March, today is the day that celebrates the height of spring, a day of spring festivities and celebrations.

Like many of our modern holidays, May Day has its roots in ancient, pagan celebrations.

Beginning in the third century B.C. in Rome, the festival Floralia, for the goddess Flora, was held in the days around May Day, April 28th to May 3rd. Flora was a goddess of flowers and fertility, and the festival was held to please her so that she protected flowers and other blossoming plants. There was a circus and theater performances, there were prostitutes and naked dancers, and a sacrifice to the goddess. Deer and goats were let loose to symbolize fertility, and beans and lupines were scattered for the same reason. Romans usually wore white tunics, but during Floralia, they got to wear bright colors. Although Floralia wasn't instituted until the third century B.C., it evolved from an ancient celebration of spring and fertility traditionally held at that time. Ovid wrote: "Mother of flowers, Flora, present be, / We raise the chant midst jocund games to thee. / Begun in April, unto May deferred, / For both are thine, the jocund song is heard. / Upon the confines of both months we stand / Embellished with the bounties of thy hand."

In the Celtic British Isles, May Day was celebrated as the festival of Beltane, or Bealtaine or Bealtuinn — Bel was the Celtic god of light, and taine or tuinne meant fire. It was the summer half of the year — a time when the sun set later, when the earth and animals were fertile. Beltane lasted from sundown the night before to sundown on the first of May. On the eve of Beltane, people lit bonfires to Bel to call back the sun. People jumped over the fires to purify themselves, and they blessed their animals by taking them between bonfires before leading them to their summer pastures the next day. It was a day to walk around the property lines and assess your land for the summer season, to mend fences. Women washed their faces with the spring dew so that they would stay beautiful, and there was dancing, tournaments, parades, feasting, and general revelry. There were lots of flowers — men walked around the fires with rowan branches to keep evil spirits at bay, and May trees, or Maypoles, were set up covered in rowan or hawthorn flowers as a blessing. People danced around the Maypole, seen to be a phallic symbol to promote fertility, and villages would compete with each other to see who could produce the tallest maypole. Young couples went off into the forest to spend the night together and came back the next day with flowers to spread through the village. A young woman was crowned May Queen, and she would ride naked on horseback through the village.

Many of these celebrations continued as late as the 17th century — the Puritans were not too pleased, especially since so many young women went off into the woods and came back pregnant. Maypoles were made illegal in 1644.

Since the Puritans discouraged May Day, it was never a major holiday in America. Eventually it was reinvented as a holiday for children, with flowers and candy. And elements of it — rabbits for fertility, colored eggs (also for fertility), which had been scattered around the Maypole — were incorporated into Easter traditions. But May Day has its followers in America. The largest May Day celebration is in Minneapolis, where up to 50,000 people turn out for puppets, dancing, and music in a joyful community parade and a ceremony calling back the sun, put on by In The Heart of the Beast Puppet Theater with the help of about 2,000 volunteers.

(Thanks to Garrison Keillor for above quotation)
"Better by far you should forget and smile than that you should remember and be sad." ~ Christina Rossetti.

ginny

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 91499
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #122 on: May 08, 2010, 02:56:31 PM »
Thank you all for taking the time to put such wonderful submissions here. They make fascinating reading, don't they?  And there's a new discovery in Carlisle England as well. It seems something is turned up literally every day which casts interesting new light on the  Romans.

Thank you also for the kind words to our Latin students who did so spectacularly on the National Latin Exam. We have always thought we would do well; we know our program is strong and filled with exceptional people,  but even we  never dreamed of such a result and there's even more:

We have now received word that 4 of our students attained a perfect score on the 2010 National Latin Exam!

Over 150,000 students of all levels  from all over the United States, Australia, Zimbabwe, Canada, England, Italy, New  Zealand, Poland, Korea, Bulgaria, China, Japan and Singapore took the National Latin Exam in 2010.

Of the 18,800 students  taking the Introductory Latin,  only 795 attained the distinction of a perfect score, and one of them was ours:

Congratulations to Melandra II for that incredible feat!

Of the 138,000 students who took the National Latin Exam in Levels 1-  VI, only 568 achieved the distinction of having a perfect score.

Of those 3  are our students!

Congratulations  to Christy Molzen, Jim F and Hidaroupe for that incredible achievement!

I love the way the letter from the National Latin Exam (who will be sending on a certificate for this accomplishment also) ends the letter and want to share it with you:

"At this time of such honor and pride for you, the teacher, the student, and your school, permit us to say, Gaudeamus igitur!"

YAHOO!!



 All of our students this year deserve applause because of their hard work and accomplishments!

____________________________________

This summer, as just another example of the strength of our students,  we have 4 Summer Latin Book Clubs operating, entirely student led, another first for us.

Gaudeamus (let us rejoice), indeed! :)







Maryemm

  • Posts: 629
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #123 on: May 30, 2010, 11:10:28 AM »

     Re: Classics Lounge
« Reply #557 on: May 25, 2010, 01:38:45 PM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Exciting news!




Divers explore sunken ruins of Cleopatra's palace 


Tuesday's dive explored the sprawling palace and temple complex where Cleopatra, the last of Egypt's Greek-speaking Ptolemaic rulers, seduced the Roman general Mark Antony before they committed suicide upon their defeat by Octavian, the future Roman Emperor Augustus.
Dives have taken Goddio and his team to some of the key scenes in the dramatic lives of the couple, including the Timonium, commissioned by Antony after his defeat as a place where he could retreat from the world, though he killed himself before it was completed.


http://www.mail.com/intl/Article.aspx/world/middleeast/APNews/Middle-East/20100525/U_ML-Egypt-Sunken-Treasures?pageid=1

Frybabe

  • Posts: 10032
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #124 on: May 30, 2010, 12:28:44 PM »
Maryemm, thanks for posting the article. I knew they were diving in the area to see what they could see, but I had no idea what if anything they found.  Someone posted in another discussion the upcoming exhibit at the Franklin Institute in Phila. George and I are planning on going, when is still up in the air. Anyone planning on going to the NY book shindig in Sept. may want to plan and extra day and mosey on down to Phila to see it. 


http://www.fi.edu/cleopatra/?gclid=CIyCm66c-qECFUJx5QodlTeoEQ

Frybabe

  • Posts: 10032
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #125 on: May 31, 2010, 06:37:58 PM »
Heads up! In case you haven't heard, the Roman colosseum is opening more areas previously not open to the public beginning in August.

http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/rome-colosseum-underground-areas-open/story?id=10760310

Maryemm

  • Posts: 629
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #126 on: June 07, 2010, 10:55:52 AM »
LATEST REPORTS ON YORK'S SKELETON FIND


ROMAN GLADIATORS LINK

(photo from article)



Frybabe

  • Posts: 10032
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #127 on: June 07, 2010, 01:11:10 PM »
Really neat, Maryemm. I wonder how long it will take for them to show the program listed at the bottom over here.


I remember that one of the Didius Falco series (forget which one off hand) included gladiatorial combats in London.

Maryemm

  • Posts: 629
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #128 on: June 07, 2010, 02:45:19 PM »
Quote
I remember that one of the Didius Falco series (forget which one off hand) included gladiatorial combats in London.
 Frybabe

That was "The Jupiter Myth".

Lindsey Davis describes the death of a female gladiator and writes:

Quote
"Gladiators are outcasts from society. Their infamy means their graves lie not just beyond the town, as happens with all adult internments, but outside the public cemetery too. Established and wealthy groups of fighters may buy their own tombs, but Londinium so far possessed no townships of elaborate mausoleums for the dead."

See:

 Roman burial site suggests that female gladiators fought in Britain      

at: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/roman-burial-site-suggests-that-female-gladiators-fought-in-britain-698754.html          

Note that Dr Mary Beard of Cambridge University's faculty of Classics, said:
Quote
"The evidence for this particular grave being that of a female gladiator seems thin. Lamps with images of gladiators are 10 a penny in the Roman world and we have no idea whether gladiators were buried inside or outside cemeteries."

Maryemm

  • Posts: 629
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #129 on: June 10, 2010, 09:39:24 AM »
Roman finds 'are unique'

Quote
THE discovery of what look to be two Roman settlements have helped the campaign to stop increased gravel extraction in South Oxfordshire.

 Reg Little


http://www.oxfordtimes.co.uk/news/8209959.Roman_finds__are_unique_/


Maryemm

  • Posts: 629
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #130 on: June 26, 2010, 09:56:48 AM »

Frybabe

  • Posts: 10032
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #131 on: June 29, 2010, 03:07:03 PM »
Just discovered that History International will have a History's Mysteries program on the homes of the Roman Emperors at 6pm today on Comcast in my area.

Frybabe

  • Posts: 10032
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #132 on: June 30, 2010, 12:08:54 AM »
What a bust. The History's Mysteries program was mostly about the emperor's with just cursory mention of the palaces, at least as far as I watched. I would have thought that they would have concentrated a little more on the palaces since it was billed as such. They said a little about Augustus' home, but very little about Tiberius' place on Capri. I gave up on it before they started on Nero.

Maryemm

  • Posts: 629
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #133 on: July 04, 2010, 05:30:53 PM »

Maryemm

  • Posts: 629
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #134 on: July 08, 2010, 03:22:12 PM »



 

Hoard of Roman coins unearthed

See:











 

Frybabe

  • Posts: 10032
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #135 on: July 08, 2010, 05:45:50 PM »
WOW, Maryemm. I had to go look Roman coin hoards to see if it was the largest. It isn't but it isn't much smaller that the over 54,000 coins in the largest found.

Carausius' name is all over a bunch of the coins in the hoard MaryEmm just posted.
He was the first Roman Emperor to mint coins in Britain. I am going to have to reread the chapter about him in Defying Rome by Guy de la Bedoyere. It includes a lot of information about his coin making and earlier hoards found. In the meantime, the first link is a history of Carausius and the second more specifically addresses his coins.


http://www.roman-empire.net/decline/carausius.html

http://www.romanbritain.freeserve.co.uk/CARAUSIUS.HTM

roshanarose

  • Posts: 1344
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #136 on: July 11, 2010, 09:33:07 PM »
I love this Board, but thought I would bring some Classical Greek to it.

The link below will take you to the story of Athena's little owl.  The owl and Athena's head appear on many ancient tetradrachms from Ancient Greece.  I am karahaz on Flickr.

www.flickr.com/photos/roxanataj/2077495526/
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

Maryemm

  • Posts: 629
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #137 on: July 24, 2010, 06:40:21 AM »
Golden bulls horn pestle 'used by rich Roman to mix ancient Viagra' unearthed in Cornish field

By Daily Mail Reporter
(Last updated at 3:11 AM on 24th July 2010)




Read all about it at:



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1297131/Golden-bulls-horn-pestle-used-mix-Roman-Viagra.html






Maryemm

  • Posts: 629
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #138 on: August 01, 2010, 07:28:48 AM »

Remains of Roman villa near Aberystwyth* discovered







Villa outline as seen from the air.


(BBC NEWS : MID-WALES)
* mid-Wales.

 

Frybabe

  • Posts: 10032
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #139 on: August 13, 2010, 11:33:53 PM »
I am now a little more than half way through the free Yale U. course on Roman Architecture. The Pompeii and Herculaneum lectures were great. Lecture 13 really held my interest. It is about the Domitian Palace on the Palatine Hill and Trajan's Arch. Ginny, have you been there?


catbrown

  • Posts: 152
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #140 on: August 19, 2010, 10:42:40 AM »
Ahh, Frybabe, you're way ahead of me. I came in here to post about having just watched the first lecture in the Roman Architecture series and how much I liked it and how much I am looking forward to the rest.

I have one of the books for the course already, the Oxford Archeological Guide, but am wondering if I really need the other one. Do you have it? What do you think?

Cathy

Frybabe

  • Posts: 10032
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #141 on: August 19, 2010, 06:13:09 PM »
Catbrown, I haven't bought the books, but I may later for reference. The lectures are really holding my interest.

ginny

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 91499
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #142 on: August 19, 2010, 08:16:12 PM »
Thank all of you for keeping us up to date here with the amazing finds being discovered all over the world and the great things available on the internet pertaining to classics.

Quote
I am now a little more than half way through the free Yale U. course on Roman Architecture. The Pompeii and Herculaneum lectures were great. Lecture 13 really held my interest. It is about the Domitian Palace on the Palatine Hill and Trajan's Arch. Ginny, have you been there?


Trajan's Arch in Benevento, Italy? Yes I've been there, if it's the one you're talking about, took an entire day to go and see it, it's harder to see than one might think. There's a fabulous tiny museum there too in the old church with the curled columns in the cloister, very interesting town,  Benevento, ancient Beneventum.  I've been to the Palatine, too,  many times.

I must get beyond the Africa segment which just blows me away, I keep starting it and having to quit because of storms and the loading time.  I wish these were available in another format, even with satellite it takes me forever to see them. I wish they could be purchased. I'd buy them!

I am so glad you found them for us.

Cathy, I don't have that  book, do I want  it?  (Need I ask?  Anything with "Oxford" on it is fabulous), do you recommend it?

Frybabe

  • Posts: 10032
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #143 on: August 19, 2010, 10:03:55 PM »
http://oyc.yale.edu/history-of-art/roman-architecture/content/downloads

Ginny, I didn't see any lectures on disk to buy, but I did find this. You can get the lectures in text, audio and video. I haven't downloaded  Adobe Reader on my new machine yet so I can't open them, but I did download the text files. Hopefully they will include the floor plans as well.

ginny

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 91499
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #144 on: August 20, 2010, 08:40:22 AM »
Frybabe, I see, by watching the first part of 13,   you are not  talking about the Arch of Trajan at Benevento but rather the Arch of Titus in Rome, oh yes you can't miss that and I've been to the Forum more times than I can count, but never with her own commentary ahead of it.

 (Note her use of Google Earth, I just attended a half day seminar on the use of this thing and it's absolutely amazing what you can do. You can route,  for instance, Caesar's progress thru France, using the modern day city names,  and then it will plot and take YOU on a magic carpet trip thru the alps or the valleys, the very places he went,  at any speed you like-- (they recommend 10,000 mph!)

It's incredible what resources you can find on the internet to enhance your own understanding of the classics. I love it.

 Amazingly,  this morning using this link: http://academicearth.org/courses/roman-architecture.  I am finding that when you click on one of the photos of the individual lectures,  the thing just rolls out like a movie  with no loading and no problems, it's awesome.

Just like renting it with Netflix. Had you not mentioned the text on Adobe, I would not have found it at all, thank you!! If anybody is having trouble loading these lectures from another site, use this one, it's fast and SO much more enjoyable. What a gift!

 I am so pleased to have found, thanks to your mentioning the text, this site which allows one to just watch the lecture!!! Thank you!


kidsal

  • Posts: 2620
  • Howdy from Rock Springs, WY
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #145 on: August 20, 2010, 09:37:40 AM »
If you download the free software DVD Video Soft Free Studio you can download YouTube files.  You must find the Yale courses on YouTube, then under Share a URL appears.  Right click on the URL and then enter as download in the DVD software after selecting where you want to store it.  I put mine under my pictures.

Also when you are watching the lecture be sure to find above the picture the place to "dim the lights" or find the icon on lower right to fill the screen with the picture.  ESC to get back to normal.

catbrown

  • Posts: 152
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #146 on: August 20, 2010, 11:17:08 AM »
Ginny, the 'Oxford Archeological Guide: Rome' is definitely worth having in your arsenal. The second edition is just published in the UK (Aug 10) and is available from Amazon UK, but in the US the pub date is listed as Oct. 15. I have the 1998 edition, and even though I just bought it about 3 weeks ago (from Amazon UK), I'll probably get the updated edition when it finally arrives at Amazon US.

Cathy

Frybabe

  • Posts: 10032
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #147 on: August 20, 2010, 03:57:43 PM »
Thanks, Kidsal, for the DVD Video Free Studio info. I will definitly look into it.

Ginny, Kliener briefly mentions the Trajan Arch at Benevento near the end, I think.

For those interested in Greek history, there is a free lecture course on Ancient Greek History.

roshanarose

  • Posts: 1344
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #148 on: August 21, 2010, 09:29:03 PM »
catbrown - I really do adore your cat image.  Did you do it?

ginny - I think we kind of touched upon what the Roman World offers in relation to the Greek World.  Was it aquaducts?  (Monty Python).  I remain intrigued, but must I complete the first part of your Latin course in order to know?  Because I studied Modern Greek for four years full time at Uni, I came away with a certain bias against Romans and Turks.  I learned a lot of Modern Greek poetry, much of it written when Greece was occupied by the Turks.  There is a very strong sense of hatred towards the Turks.  Unfortunately, that hatred is still very much in evidence, particularly in Cyprus.  As for the Romans - the Ancient Greeks called them "Blockheads".  I have always been interested to know what the Romans thought of the Greeks.  Come to think of it the Greeks called anyone who didn't speak their language "oi barbaroi".  I love their arrogance.   :o  Stirring the pot!
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

ginny

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 91499
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #149 on: August 22, 2010, 03:55:28 PM »
Yep, you have to take the course. hahahaa  But you can make a case here for the Greeks, the controversy is actually taken up in all 12 chapters. :)

Thank you Kidsal, that's good information to know, I'd like to do that and have it on my own computer.

Thank you Cathy, Amazon uk owes me an adjustment, so I can actually have it shipped free, yahoo!

I saw something in the new Smithsonian about Pompeii graffiti in the Smithsonian online and went to look: voila!

There appear to be two articles, this one: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/Reading-the-Writing-on-Pompeiis-Walls.html#

And this one which is a slide show apparently with explanations:

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/multimedia/photos/?articleID=99324199&c=y

The Romans are so HOT right now, even the Wiki leaker has a Roman alias, I mean really. Everybody wants IN on the Romans. :)

ginny

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 91499
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #150 on: August 22, 2010, 04:42:16 PM »
Well my goodness my goodness. One of the additional books Amazon.uk thought I might like is called A Cabinet of Roman Curiosities: Strange Tales and Surprising Facts from the World's Greatest Empire.

The author is JC McKeown. Turns out  http://www.jcmckeown.com/contact.php  he's the author of a new text Classical Latin and he's also got a neato website with pig sounds where appropriate and fabulous audio recordings of many authors.  Here's the website:  
http://www.jcmckeown.com/contact.php

He's a Professor of Classics at the University of Wisconsin Madison

His Cabinet of Curiosities is not available in the US yet.

Here's his Caesar De Bello Gallico 6:27 with the Latin text: http://www.jcmckeown.com/audio.php

As I'm in the middle of making new  audios for our classes, I can't help but totally enjoy his readings. He does not roll his Rs (90 percent of the time),  and since I can't either, I am chuffed to hear it,  and he hesitates here and there, how well I know the feeling, took me 25 takes on the last one I did. :)

I love it! One thing leads serendipitously to another in the Classics.

 http://www.jcmckeown.com/la5103d1t04.php/la5103d1t01.php

roshanarose

  • Posts: 1344
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #151 on: August 22, 2010, 11:07:22 PM »
Ah Yes the Romans are hot!  Surely we can thank an Australian for that, and, of course Harry Potter.  In truth the Greeks seem much too ethereal to be "Hot".  Although Sam Worthington showing his loins has helped  Greek mythology no end.  If you haven't seen "Clash of the Titans" you surely must.  The man who plays his rather aloof offsider is a Danish actor who "undoes" Medusa, the guy who played Le Fevre in the latest "Casino Royale" and Sam is Australian.  Ah ... movies!!  Tongue firmly in cheek re this para.  Ginny.  I didn't know that Latin rolled its "rrrrrs".  Greek does too and it drives me batty, also gamma and chi are both a challenge.  Just when you think you are getting it right they appear and completely ruin your little speech.  Talking about speech, my comments in this discussion are most definitely and firmly tongue in cheek.
There are many others here who are much more erudite than I on this subject.


Back to the Greek/Roman thing:

Well, we need to ask ourselves what has each civilisation done for us?  And, what is each still doing?

 Democracy, Theatre, Philosophy, Mythology

Of course their Democracy was skewed, as slaves, women and aliens weren't allowed to vote, but it did sow the seed.  

Theatre was/is the "big one".  Greece's playwrights were/are beyond comparison with the Romans.  Only Greece could promote the brilliance of Aristophanes and make fun of themselves in the process.  The first satirist?

Philosophy:  What needs to be said?  Perhaps that Greek philosophy idealised thought and the search for truth, where Roman philosophy was philosophy with "its sleeves rolled up".  Practical, more suited to daily life.  More "applied thinking" than the Greeks, although the Milesian philosophers' were certainly seeking explanation for the basics.  Philosophy and all that it purports to be is good whether it is Greek or Roman.  They are even on that score.

Mythology:  The Romans were on the right track with Romulus and Remus and Aeneas, but why? oh why? did they copy the Greek gods by just changing their names.  It is not as if they are just translations like Heracles and Hercules, but how can Artemis be Diana and Aphrodite be Venus in translation.  Very disappointing.  Mythological names, both Roman and Greek continue to enrich our vocabulary and our literature.

Leaving it at that today.  Comments most welcome.  

How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

roshanarose

  • Posts: 1344
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #152 on: August 22, 2010, 11:26:21 PM »
I forgot to mention re Democracy.  In Australia it is compulsory to vote.  If you don't you get fined.  We are still waiting for a result on the Australian Federal Election held on Saturday.  They are talking about things like "hung parliaments" and other esoteric terms.  Sounds like a Western movie to me. :-\
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

ginny

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 91499
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #153 on: August 23, 2010, 09:44:27 AM »
Well that is beautiful. So beautiful I think I'll save it for when we get to the "Great Debate," as I am short of Greek background and  appreciation and that will be easier and shorter  to read than what I usually put up. :)

I also had lofty ideals of the noble Greeks till I spent two weeks in Greece touring archaeological sites and learning some much needed  history. (Since I knew virtually nothing).  The Democracy depended on who you were in Greek society, and the Greeks had slavery long before the Romans, and killed each other incessantly. For all their lofty thoughts, they  seemed always contentious on every level, every single level, no matter how small, and always  at war, bitter awful war,  with each other,  (unlike the "blockhead" Romans who also called any foreigner barbarus). (Tongue also in cheek here).

 In fact the Greeks and their perfectly awful phalanx, (still trying get over the image of their own soldiers held up dead on  their spears because of the tightness of the formations, carried forward),   for all their noble lofty philosophy actually (think Athens and Sparta) ...well I won't go into it.

Who is smarter, one wonders? The one who comes up with an idea or the one who actually improves on it and makes it actually work? The one who thinks up a concept which  many times, is then undeveloped, a theory,  or the one learns from it,   adapts it,  improvises it and improves it to a new standard?  The Romans respected Greek learning, literature and art,  and made them their teachers (as slaves), they took what they found,  from history, from the Greeks and the Etruscans,  and used it to create new and dazzling innovations, too.

I love watching the classes decide, who has given more to OUR society in 2010,  the Greeks or the Romans, it's a fascinating debate. Sometimes classes decide on the Greeks (mathematics, astronomy, science, literature) sometimes the  Romans (our Senate, our House, our  system of government, engineering, building, Caesar still studied in military academies, their inventions, on and on.. on both sides......it's fascinating).



catbrown

  • Posts: 152
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #154 on: August 23, 2010, 10:46:33 AM »
Roshanarose, I'm glad you like my kitty. Yes, it's my creation and in one iteration (as an animated gif) it wiggles its ear.

Ginny, thanks for the audio links. Super cool. And, I'm jealous that you'll have the new edition of the Oxford guide before I do, but it's my own fault because I got tired of waiting and just gave up and bought the old edition only to find out that the new one arrived in the UK virtually days afterward. Dammit.

As for which civilization is cooler, Roman or Greek, well, I've always just adored the Romans and found the Greeks just a little too full of themselves. But that's an emotional response, not a considered one. But it's the only one I will ever have, because, for me, the discussion leads nowhere. Romans are different from Greeks; Greeks are different from Romans; but they share a great deal as they were close neighbors in what was first a Hellenistic world and then a Roman one, with concepts and technology never confined by geographic or political boundaries.

And that's my rant for the day!

roshanarose

  • Posts: 1344
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #155 on: August 23, 2010, 09:19:34 PM »
ginny - Cool comments.  I loved the pic of the phalanx and the image you described could easily be one of Monty Python's.  I agree with all you said, esp improving on what has gone before.  "Standing on the shoulders of giants" and the Greeks were indeed  Giants.  A two week archaeological tour of Greece is not enough, sadly.  You merely scrape the surface.  But at least you went and your opinions are valid. 

What you said about the killing is correct.  Greece was divided into "power groups" polis, and killing was going to be inevitable.  Greece had also been invaded by the Persians twice, once when the Persians won at Thermopylae, and again when the Persians destroyed Athens, but  lost at Salamis to a much smaller and lighter armed Greek navy.  They had to know how to fight, their cities and lives were at risk.  The Peloponnesian War was the worst and much blood was spilt there and treachery abounded.  However, when the Greeks colonised Naples, c.700BC, Syracuse, Nice and Marseilles their arrival was bloodless.  The Greeks did not invade and seek to conquer on a methodical basis to expand an Empire as the Romans did.  Their conflicts were internal.  So how can one measure blood-letting?  The Greeks were good at fighting, the Romans were good at conquest.

Slavery:  The Greeks had slavery earlier because as a culture they developed earlier than the Romans.  Some say that if it hadn't been for slavery that the Greeks would not have had the time to develop "the glory that was Greece".  This holds a grain of truth.

I have more arguments Ginny.  But I enjoy your emails, so if you need more just email me. ;)  I just wish I could meet the great people on here f2f and thrash this out.  I would love to visit NYC again.

catbrown:  Your kitty is so beautiful.  You have caught the moods and nuances of the cat so well is no easy task.  It may have been T S Eliot who remarked that he could just watch a cat all day and admire their lissome grace.

A tactful response about the Greeks and the Romans.  I think that ginny and I are so passionate in our love affairs with these two cultures that we could never be swayed.  You are right though, of course they are different.  The Greeks, like Australians, will bet on two ants walking up a wall and argue about if afterward.  Greeks remain "political animals" as noted by Aristotle.  When I arrived in Greece for the first time the first thing I was asked was my political persuasion; then if I was married and then how many children I had.  The second time this didn't happen - maybe because I looked older.





 
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

roshanarose

  • Posts: 1344
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #156 on: August 23, 2010, 10:55:13 PM »
Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit.
- Horace
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

ginny

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 91499
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #157 on: August 24, 2010, 06:37:36 AM »
hahaha  touché!

Dana

  • ::
  • Posts: 5350
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #158 on: August 25, 2010, 05:45:17 PM »
Hi Roshanarose, it is nice to read some comments about ancient Greece.  I don't know whether I prefer the Greeks or the Romans really, or why I find them both so fascinating--for me its not so much the archaeology etc, its the literature, which I am only getting started on, really.  There's a great Greek textbook, Athenaze, which I can highly recommend.  Since finishing it I have been able to read some Greek lyric poetry and at the moment Xenophon on "the training of a Greek housewife" which is fascinating.  The trouble with ancient Greek is that many of the verbs are irregular and both the beginnings and the ends change so memory is  important as often the particular variation one is translating cannot be found except in one's mind!  But the grammar is quite simple and translating it is pleasant because ideas are usually expressed in a very  direct way which almost translates intuitively (unlike Latin where I find one has to follow the grammar accurately to make sense of it).
Ginny I don't know why the classics are hot right now, perhaps there was just an aberration for a while, because I think they were always hot before  !!  Have just been reading something on Shakespeare --didn't realize some of his early plays are based on Plautus.......which gave me an idea for our class reading.....how about Plautus (and Shakespeare)??!!

ginny

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 91499
Re: Classics Bulletin Board
« Reply #159 on: August 25, 2010, 09:40:37 PM »
 Yeow, how about  them!  hahaa   Certainly an intriguing idea.  :)
 
hahaa What IS it about Plautus? I think he also is enjoying a renaissance somewhat akin to the one he enjoyed with Henry VIII and Shakespeare of course (Menaechmi) and Moliere.  It seems everywhere you go anymore somebody is performing the Mostellaria. I bet I've seen it 5 times in as many years.

He'd be a nice bridge between Greek New Comedy and Roman but given a choice I'd go for Medieval any day,  perhaps: he's diffy. Very.  That's one reason he fell into disuse, after the early Empire: nobody could read him.  Very old Latin. Somewhere I've got a great quote about that. I haven't read him in years!  I think the last revival of Plautus in Rome was in Cicero's day.

Since we're talking about him and I seemed to remember a lot of grunts and ejaculations in his plays, lots of exclamations, I got out my copy of Rudens and find that (no grunts in this one I must be thinking of another) in this tiny sweet book (it's a very small size book, the kind Oxford used to print out in 1901, called Editio Minor) but of the 176 little pages, 66 are the play and the other 110  are notes trying to explain the play. hahahaaa

A course in himself, is Plautus.  Fabulae palliatae, plays in Greek cloaks. Maybe someday. :)