Number Our Days

[so P bubble]

The Book Club Online is the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

They say that growing old is not for sissies. Are they right? When Anthropologist Dr. Barbara Myerhoff received a grant to study aging she decided to do it on subjects in the USA, and let them speak for themselves.

The result is an "often funny, deeply moving narrative of human dignity and courage."

 "One of those rare books that leave the reader somehow changed."-- Bel Kaufman.

Join us June 15! 

Questions to Ponder on  Chapter 1

Chapter 3: The Rise and Fall of Kominsky: Mop Up Thoughts and Questions:


1. What do you think the Center means to the Folks in the book?  (I think of them now as extended family).   If they did not have this Center, what would they do?

2. What made for successful aging among the elders?

3.  What do you think the psalm "So teach us to number our days, that we may get us a heart of wisdom" means to you?  What does it mean to them?

4. The title of the book is actually: Number Our Days: A Triumph of Continuity and Culture Among Jewish Old People in an Urban Ghetto. I just noticed that word Triumph this morning. IS this a triumph so far? We have half of the book left yet. So far, is it a Triumph of Continuity and Culture?

Why or why not?

 5. And here's one expressed in a letter to a website talking about the book (but unfortunately not discussing it or providing questions): The elders emphasize that they do not believe in the teachings of Judaism due to the consequences of religion during the Holocaust. However, they still hold dearly to their traditions. Myerhoff observes and explains that although the Jewish elderly are not religious, they still practice and uphold the Jewish practices in order to keep their culture alive. They cherish education and scripture study in order to keep their culture rich for the generations to come.

Is THAT why they are holding to their traditions?

What do you think?


 
http://www.oztorah.com/2009/08/36-hidden-saints-ask-the-rabbi/

[ginny]

Bellamarie, you misunderstand me. What do you all think of the story of Itzak? How could Kominski live with that? How could anybody live with having caused that? How DID he cause it?

I'm not talking about the physical manifestations or causation  of a stroke?

You say: I'm not so sure Kominsky "caused" Itza's stroke.  I never like placing blame on anyone, due to a person's health condition.  When you are as old as Itzak, it seems inevitable he would have some health issues, and maybe the excitement and hurt did bring on the stroke, but I just don't think it would be fair to say it was Kominsky's fault, and expect he should have to live with this.  No different than Shmuel dying after his last emotional talk with Myerhoff.  These are elderly people with health issues, in time something will result from them. 

You have mentioned several times in that post you think Shmuel is "level headed," and "right on" in this insights.

Here's one he gave on the Itzak situation:


"Izak was a simple man, a good enough man, that's all. Is Kominsky's blood redder than Isak's he somehow has the right to destroy him?

To destroy a man is as though you destroy the whole world. This is from the Talmud. '"

Destroy is the word I'd use.  No matter how strong  a person might be or thinks he is, for a religious leader to publicly shame, humiliate and condemn a person in the very place of worship...

1. "Meekly Itzak turned to the people around him. 'Does he think I line my pockets with this money? Does he calls me a gonif?'" (Thief). (page 133)

2. "Itzak's wife had gone home and brought back his box of receipts and money. He was shuffling bits of paper from his pockets into piles on the table, tears sliding steadily from beneath his glasses into the cigar box." (136). [/b]

for no other reason than the method of accounting does not fit somebody else's  own vision, to denigrate and slander that person to the other members... 

3. ("Evidently Kominski had managed to insult quite a few people on these short visits.  Basha reported that he head told her that Itzak, once a butcher, was always known to have a heavy thumb, before with his meat, now with the Center's money'") (139)

 is shameful and disgusting, to me.

The result:

Said Rachel, "He thinks we murdered him because we insulted him (Kominski). He never gives  a think to the insult he gave to Itzak.  After that happened Itzak cried for a  week." (139-140)

They voted in a new treasurer. "And Itzak refused to continue as treasurer. His eyes had grown steadily worse. Shortly after, he had a stroke."  (140).

but I just don't think it would be fair to say it was Kominsky's fault, and expect he should have to live with this. 

I  think it's fair to say  that crying for a week does nothing for one's blood pressure at any age, nor does public humiliation,  and slander, and I doubt it did anything for Itzak, given that as we age, so do our blood vessels and the capacity for standing this kind of stress.


 No different than Shmuel dying after his last emotional talk with Myerhoff.

Please show me where Myerhoff did the same to Shmuel.  I see her treating him with respect, almost the exact opposite of Kominsky's treatment of Itzak.


But perhaps there is a light at the end of the tunnel?  The book is not over, I have not read beyond this chapter but hopefully there may yet be something  ameliorating or kind from Kominsky. Nobody  can tell me he didn't feel guilt over that. Perhaps when he became an old man himself and the sins of his youth which he thought he'd long forgotten or done for a good reason wake him up in the middle of the night, like they do for everybody else.

  I am a firm believer in "what  goes around, comes around. "

[ginny]

You know what strikes me about this book? The people in it are  talking about important things. It's quite different from the normal summer fare, I'm glad we've tackled it, because of our thoughtful posters who are not afraid to tackle such issues.

Barbara, what a post! You've got a million jumping off places for discussion, I can hardly wait to tackle some of them!

You gave a wonderful comparison to the book Two  Women,  too.

What do the rest of you think about some of these points?

I'm wondering if it is more the author's views that bother me than the life choices and views held by those who are part of the Center...

I think that's a fair question at this point. How do the rest of you see the author's interpretation of the people and the events here? Is she right? Wrong? Does her interpretation help? Is it accurate, do you think?

and lived to protect themselves from the disdain of others - is that true or is that only the author's interpretation of what she thought was important -

That's a good question, too.  What do the rest of you think?



I'm not following this logic as well as I might be here, help me out?  You say:


It is not about measuring your worth based on other's approval or disdain

But then you say:

, and not to do so is  but to buy into that, is giving power to all the people and systems in their lives that made them feel worthless - where as, some folks dig deep and find their worth and do not worry about saving face but rather use their accumulated knowledge and their lifetime of developed skills to create a life where there is no room for being honored or judged.

There's something here that doesn't add up, to me. I don't think that being honored or judged by others is my fault or has anything to do with my own sense of worth.  I don't think that if I don't stand up to people who do criticize or condemn me that I am giving them more power to "make me feel" worthless.  They can't "make" me feel anything about myself.   I don't understand the logic there, the giving of "power" to somebody over me if I don't stand up for myself.   What am I missing?

What of the people who don't want to spend their lives in an every day struggle especially in our now contentious world (and I think that is one thing the author got right, see next post)  fighting for what everybody deserves: respect and to live in peace? Is there no place for them? Do the meek Itzaks then deserve to be crushed? Stand up for yourself, Itzak? Why should he have to? Why can't everybody treat him the way they would like to be treated themselves? I don't see the fault here as Itzak's. Do you?

Jonathan, LOVE the Centurion story, how clever. Did you make that up yourself? Why did your Father found this home?

Hongfan, those are good questions.  139, Kominsky said "To insult a man is like a murder", he quoted in Hebrew. then later "The great Maimonides said, 'When there is no way to give the truth except to insult ten thousand fools, overlook the anger of the fools and save the truth."

I guess in old culture, we have all kinds of quotes that you can employ for your purpose even some times seemingly conflicting with each other? Does this sound conflicting to you? Or shall I read them together as - When there is no way to give the truth other than murder ten thousand people, then just go ahead?

What do you all think? The 10,000 fools issue is really something. I've been thinking about that since I read it.

Here's another question (I have more questions than answers): There seem to be so many things in Judaism which we can relate to as human beings, regardless of our own faith. I wonder: is there an ancient culture or religion which does not have schisms and sects which believe different things because of the various teachings of the people in it?


For that matter is there an ancient culture or religion without people who do the wrong thing, say the wrong thing, act badly? .

I am struggling with the idea that here we have more commonality with the people in the Center regardless of our own religious beliefs than we do differences, but I've been struggling with that since we started. What are your thoughts on that?

[ginny]

I believe I understand this statement now that the author made, but I may not be interpreting it correctly, what do you think?

"It would seem that there is often a direct, inverse relationship between people's actual effective power and their passion for publicly enacting their honor." (page 142).

Barbara addresses this in her last post, very well. But I think the root cause is founded in something else. Maybe one causes the other.  Remember Scrooge and the Ghost of Christmas Present?

  "This boy is Ignorance. This girl is Want. Beware them both, and all of their degree, but most of all beware this boy."

We are all different people. I think the root of a person's wanting to defend his honor vociferously in public (especially in 2017) is his own  Ignorance. (Here  I am not talking about somebody who has been assaulted criminally, or wrongly,  I am talking about somebody who just feels "disrespected" in general.) Is there a term for that Discontent? It's a chip the size of Maryland on their shoulder in general.   Think of the Mafia, in the movies. You say the wrong thing and BINGO you're dead, because you didn't show RESPECT.


It reminds me of the old Vaudeville Routine: "Martha." Man is standing on the porch. For some reason in his past the  name "Martha" sets him off. So he's standing there in the skit talking to a man on his porch,  and somebody says "Martha," and he's relating what happened. The person said "Martha," and he says "Martha? Slowly I turned, step by step I crept up on him, and then.... " (he begins beating the man he's talking to with some kind of balloon or something. The audience laughs.  Then the poor man says something and the word Martha is mentioned again and it happens again, and everybody laughs.

But there's nothing funny about it in life. And that's what's happening to us in 2017, I think. It doesn't take much to trigger an outburst.  I personally think it all stems from Ignorance,  (and to me, Ignorance and amount of education are not the same thing). It's a simple lack of knowledge about others,  or wanting to learn about  or understand others, and their beliefs and cultures, and moreover their right to have them that causes it. 


The thinking seems to be, I feel  no respect or...what's the word, attention.....? to my needs from others in life, I also want to be a star, why am I not a star?  Why not me? How are they better? Who speaks for me? I want  to stand out and to have my 15  seconds of fame. I  have no reason to expect this attention,  I've done nothing,  so I will demand it. I am entitled to it.  I've got a good sense of self worth, and you better acknowledge it. Once I demand it publicly,  I will feel better after I've shot off my mouth. I feel aggrieved by things in general.  I'm going to tell the world.  And I admire people who do the same. 

These people don't seem  understand that speechlessness that results at such Ignorance is not the same as winning (accomplishing their goal of earning attention or respect or whatever they think it is).  There, they think, I've done it, nobody is saying anything: I've won..

 Er...no, that's not what's happened. People are speechless because they can't fathom such ignorance.

I mean think of the movie Amadeus. Mozart says, "One hears such sounds, and what can one say, but: 'Salieri.'"

One hears such sounds, and what can one say? Where can one even start?   Turn on the TV:  such ranting on TV, it's pitiful. Our country is now beset by Media Screamers, desk pounders, the Outraged.  When Khrushchev did it at the UN, we thought he was comical. Maybe we need to think again before it's too late.

I'll step off my soapbox and stop ranting, myself, now, but how did YOU interpret that line and, more importantly IS the author right?

[hongfan]

Bubble, thank you very much for the links. I have listened to some lectures on Judaism before but the more I read this book, the more I feel I have known so little, so I ordered three more audio books/lectures on Judaism and Jewish histories last night, I am very glad that we have picked this book! I guess by the end of the summer, I will be a much wiser person!

I'm wondering if it is more the author's views that bother me than the life choices and views held by those who are part of the Center...

- I tend to think it's author's views, I somehow feel she is trying to squeeze the Center people's life into some anthropology theory or model - this is a funded anthropology project, so she needed to make it a scholarly looking report in some ways, I guess, and in doing that, her interpretation did come sometimes questionable to me.

"It would seem that there is often a direct, inverse relationship between people's actual effective power and their passion for publicly enacting their honor." (page 142).

Ginny - your interpretation is interesting, I haven't thought about it from that angle and need to think more about it.

What came to my mind when I first read this line is the following: it is about the motivation of the leader and the trust that he/she earns. When people sees the motivation of the leader is not for himself/herself (including earning fame or monetary return), they would put more trust into this person and thus the leader becomes more effective in influencing his/her people. The moment people suspects the motivation of the leader connected to personal fame ("passion for publicly enacting their honor") or other personal gains, they will start to withdraw their trust and thus the leader's influence will wither and she/her becomes less effective.

It is all more interesting that we read one thing in the book somewhat differently, that itself adds fascinating perspectives!

I wonder: is there an ancient culture or religion which does not have schisms and sects which believe different things because of the various teachings of the people in it?

- In ancient Chinese literatures we tend to think in the early days people were living in harmony - I remember that Greeks also have this five stages of human phases with the first stage everything went well (Ovid then adopted it into four stages)? Seems since then human kind has been on a continuous decay with increasing dividing and confrontations. So if you ask me for today, I am not aware of a big culture or religion with ancient lineage that doesn't have schisms and sects, but what about small groups of people in a very remote place on earth which has a long history and we don't know, supposedly they were relatively on a much slower decay rate? Maybe.

In my mind, I am thinking if one day I am walking and see an ant, and I tell the ant who I am. I wonder what the ant will tell other ants about me, and what the story will be among the ants after 100 years? I would imagine by then there will be  100 versions about me? But maybe for the first year or two there was only one version?

[bellamarie]

Ginny, I only meant that I don't think anyone can be to blame when someone of Itzak or Shmuel's age has a stroke.  I'm a firm believer in it's how we our selves react to how a person treats us, is more to the point.  Kominsky was only trying to make Itzak and the Center realize you can't keep records by carrying around pieces of paper in your pocket or a small box.  A ledger is the proper way to keep records and it needed to be done that way.  Yes, it was humiliating, hurtful and offensive since the people have trusted him for all these years, but to cry over it for a week seemed a bit extreme. 

Please show me where Myerhoff did the same to Shmuel.  I see her treating him with respect, almost the exact opposite of Kominsky's treatment of Itzak.

I did not mean to intimate that Myerhoff treated Shmuel the same as Kominsky did Itzak.  I only meant that Shmuel also died after having an emotional talk with her.  I don't think someone can be blamed for an elderly person dying, who possibly already had underlying health issues.  These people at the Center seem to treat each other badly all the time.  It's their second nature, so to point out one person's faults seems a bit hypocritical when many of them ridicule, humiliate and treat each other abrasively.  I'm not defending Kominsky's behavior or excusing it, I'm only saying this type of behavior is not something unexpected in the Center. They publicly humiliated Shmuel and Kominsky as well. In my opinion there is a lot of blame to go around when it comes to behaving badly in the Center. They seem to have a love/hate relationship in the Center.

You see it one way, I see it another, no one has to be right or wrong, it's simply our own personal perception of the cause and effect. 

[bellamarie]

hongfan, 

It is all more interesting that we read one thing in the book somewhat differently, that itself adds fascinating perspectives!

We were posting at the same time.  I completely agree with this statement, and we must respect each other's fascinating perspectives, even when they are not the same as our own. 

I am very glad that we have picked this book! I guess by the end of the summer, I will be a much wiser person!

I'm going to be wiser or even more confused than ever!   

I am also feeling the author is interjecting her own interpretation in places that could be viewed differently if we sat and observed ourselves, but then again, it is her project. 

[so P bubble]

Barbara, what a great post.
I agree with you that the group of people in the center do not see themselves as something special, as worthy of attention. But, and that is a big but, they have pride of who they are, they cling to the past and their small achievements and that is why they can be hurt very deeply.  I think it is a feeling very much found among the seniors in homes, and possibly among all of us.
When you have nothing, face is very important and you look for approval and appreciation, no matter exactly for what, being  baking a cake, arranging flowers or giving a home made recipe for curing a cough.
So yes, I think Itzak was totally crushed by K.'s words in front of all.

I relate to that personally.  I had been working for over three years in an office where I dealt mostly with English speaking people.  Then the "boss" favored another secretary who was always praising him and doing "favors" while complaining about me not being  efficient. Over the week end I got a phone call telling me I did not need to come back as they thought I was not good enough in English! I go severance but I was in depression for six months.  I pulled myself together in finally realizing I was not incompetent.  The image on how we see  ourselves and  that we want present to others is very important.

Hogfan, I really don't know what to answer about Zionism.  I suppose we all want  the Jewish people to come back here, I am not sure this is Zionism.  I never thought about it.  As a routine, we had a blue box at home when I was a kid, and regularly put coins in it  after the creation of Israel, so as to help buying land, or sending that to help the new immigrants.



"With God, without God, with kosher, without kosher, a Jew is a Jew" (Basha on page 138)

It sounds to me that a Jew here is defined ultimately by ethnicity or bloodline, not by observing Judaism or not. "

Right!  A jew is one by birth, from a Jewish mother since we follow the matriarchal line.  Also we do not push or encourage others to convert.

About living in harmony, I am told that that is the precept taught and believed in the Bahai religion.

[BarbStAubrey]

I need to re-read these posts - we are each picking up, even from each other, a slightly different take - what a great group of individuals we are as we each see something in the story - love it - Bubble loved the story of the 12 righteous men - scratching my head - is having a different opinion, that is shared by even another author making you righteous - yep, I can relate to Velma Wallis' version of elderhood far more than how Barbar Myerhoff is presenting her interpretation of elderhood.

Ginny to me the two sentences relate perfectly - my thinking is that to measure your own worth based on receiving the honor or disdain of others is going to sink you - it is as if using others as your mirror and what they mirror back - then you accept as your worth their opinion, their mirrored back image of you - rather than looking inward and assessing your own contributions to life of the community (after all these folks all successfully raised children to be professionals even if their own formal education was lacking and they each contribute to the fund for Israel to plant trees - my point is if you cannot see your own worth why in the world would you expect anyone else to do that job for you...? And if you are using others as your mirror you are giving them power that is taking from your own agency!)

OK I am trying trying trying to get Earthlink to understand my problem for 3 days now - seems my email messages are not being received by others and here I am in the middle of a transaction with a seller in Georgetown, which on a good day with low traffic is 40 minutes away and so we depend on email -  grrr - Those employees whose job it is to answer are easy to talk with and get it but, then she has to type or text or whatever she does the problem to the tech nerds who speak a totally different language and insist that I should receive bounce back notices when my email does not go through and I do not have that experience - so of course they do not want to own it - I would switch except this email address is printed on everything I use... onward to tackle the world of technology .

It may be this evening before I can get back to re-read and get into the way we are each seeing this story.

[hongfan]

Barbara, is Earthlink your internet service provider and that is why you are using them for your email server? You might want to think about using GMail. I used to use verizon.net for my email because Verizon is my internet service provider, but it has got very bad - lost emails and couldn't receive emails while overseas, etc. And finally Verizon has announced they will shut it down. I guess providing email service is no longer helping them the business and thus they are treating it as a cost loss item, and it can only become worse from there on. Your experience with Earthlink seems similar.

It's a pain to switch email account but it might be better to do it sooner than later? Also, I find GMail is much better in filtering out junk mails (given Google some appreciation for that their cleverness on figuring out who is who), my Verizon email is 90% junk mails by the time I closed it.

But just one thing you want to keep in mind, Google saves all our data, their machines read our emails and everything we do on the internet. So don't be surprised if one day if you write in your email says "attached for your reference" and forgot to attach a file, then after you hit "send", a window pop saying "hello, you said attached, but I don't find any attached file, are you sure..." But, all of us who have been in high tech industry know that our privacy has been lost long time ago anyway, so nothing more to loose, right?

[hongfan]

Have you heard of "mirror neuron"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron

I think biologically we are wired to mirror each other particularly on emotions - why we smile when we see smiles? To "decouple" from others need training, particularly decouple from ones that you care, this is a bit go against biology, but reasoning and rationale faculty we have would help somewhat, I think, whether you can completely decouple is questionable.

This may not directly related to posts from Barbara and Ginny, but something triggered my thoughts.

[hongfan]

Bahai religion - it is founded in 19th century and thus a religion in its infancy?

[BarbStAubrey]

I need to re-read these posts - we are each picking up, even from each other, a slightly different take - what a great group of individuals we are as we each see something in the story - love it - Bubble loved the story of the 12 righteous men - scratching my head - is having a different opinion, that is shared by even another author making you righteous - yep, I can relate to Velma Wallis' version of elderhood far more than how Barbar Myerhoff is presenting her interpretation of elderhood.

Ginny to me the two sentences relate perfectly - my thinking is that to measure your own worth based on receiving the honor or disdain of others is going to sink you - it is as if using others as your mirror and what they mirror back - then you accept as your worth their opinion, their mirrored back image of you - rather than looking inward and assessing your own contributions to the life of the community (after all these folks all successfully raised children to be professionals even if their own formal education was lacking and they each contribute to the fund for Israel to plant trees - my point is if you cannot see your own worth why in the world would you expect anyone else to do that job for you...? And if you are using others as your mirror you are giving them power that is taking from your own agency!)

OK I am trying trying trying to get Earthlink to understand my problem for 3 days now - seems my email messages are not being received by others and here I am in the middle of a transaction with a seller in Georgetown, which on a good day with low traffic is 40 minutes away and so we depend on email -  grrr - Those employees whose job it is to answer are easy to talk with and get it but, then she has to type or text or whatever she does the problem to the tech nerds who speak a totally different language and insist that I should receive bounce back notices when my email does not go through and I do not have that experience - so of course they do not want to own it - I would switch except this email address is printed on everything I use... onward to tackle the world of technology .

It may be this evening before I can get back to re-read and get into the way we are each seeing this story.

[bellamarie]

Barb, I totally get what you are saying about giving others the power, of your worth.



Someone please feel free to resize this.  Thank you.

Not to beat a dead horse, but Itzak should have known he was a trustworthy person, he questioned his own self worth.  Everyone at the Center has trusted him all these years.  To take what Kominsky was saying as an insult against his integrity, about wanting to keep legal, ledge-able, records, to me was not necessary. 

pg.  133   "Does he call me a gonif ?(theif)"   

It is how Itzak reacted that caused the most commotion.  He could have understood that records are something that should be considered, instead of carrying pieces of paper around in his pockets that could fall out and be lost, or stuffing them in a cigar box, instead he took it as a personal attack, and became emotional. 

Kominsky did have good intentions, he just did not realize he needed to approach his changes in a way for the people to feel like they were involved and were being respected.  He started showing favortism, ignoring their wishes, bringing in outsiders making the Center people feel like outsiders themselves, and accepting charity making them feel like paupers to the outside world, this was too much for them to continue to work with him.  This told me a lot of the Center people:

pg.  125  "The Center people had a strong appetite for questioning authority of all kinds, in part developed in response to exile, in part issuing from their theology, which encourages each individual to actively scrutinize even the teachings of the Lord of the Universe.   It was the kind of talk that Kominsky meant when he spoke of "davening" over the minutes.  It was a source of excitement, and opportunity for competition, a chance to display one's learning. But it was not conducive to making decisions and using time efficiently.

You can't argue and disagree just for the sake of it.  You have to at some point be willing to listen, sort through what is being said, and then find a common ground.  I feel like when these people in the Center were feeling like they were being silenced, overlooked, and then asked to bring back the practices of their religion they decided Kominsky was no longer who they wanted as their president.  It's like the saying goes,  "They threw the baby out with the bath water." There was no compromising on either side, so now we will see what becomes of the Center that was in dire straits before Kominsky took over.  I have not read ahead, so it will be interesting to see how they are able to keep it going.     

[hongfan]

hahahaa - I wonder how many of us will be confident in opening a clinic for anger management?

I wonder how behavior changes with what we call the "private space"?

If you observe a waiting line in US vs. in China, you would quickly find Americans leave a lot more space between each other than the Chinese - that is also applicable to the two cultures. That makes me wonder if that applies to Jewish culture and whether that is related to how Center people behave with each other.

[ginny]

Thank you, Barbara, I see now what you meant. It seemed to me at first for some reason you were advocating something else. I've never heard of the "Personal Power" thing but if it works, I'm all for it so long as it doesn't hurt anybody else, and I don't see how it could. Unless it were carried to extremes.

I think that was Kominsky's problem. I really do  think there was something wrong with him.  He has a lot of odd symptoms: the chosen one, the only  one who knows how to do things, the lack of concern for Itzak...I mean how could anybody sit and watch that happen, let alone escalate it,  alone shows something not quite right. I am glad the Center folks stood up for themselves  and voted him democratically out. I think that must have taken a lot,  given their situation.

Bubble, I am so sorry to hear of your distress following that unfair termination. I completely understand that. but I was in depression for six months.  I pulled myself together in finally realizing I was not incompetent.  The image on how we see  ourselves and  that we want present to others is very important.

  Yes and there's along with it in that situation  the grief of losing something you did well to underhanded means.  The unfairness of it. You are a nicer person than I am. I tend to get angry. Of course they do say that depression is repressed anger, but either way,  it, like a lot of other things that happen to people, was not right. And I don't see anything wrong with saying so and standing up to the bullies of the world and calling them out, either. THEY won't like it, but hey.

Bellamarie, what you've said there, the "should have, would have, could have" remarks  as to Itzak's behavior,  seems to imply that Itzak, who I thought was the victim, caused his own abuse?  I may not understand what you're saying, that seems to be an issue with me today, for some reason.  Sorry if I have misunderstood. But if  that is the idea, I don't agree with it.

It's interesting when we discuss books how some minor character becomes a litmus test, and that makes it all the better.

Oh that's a good point, hongfan, on the space issue. You are dead right on that one. What do you think that indicates and why?  Americans like space between them and the other person, and it's interesting as one travels to see the people in  which countries do and don't need space. And which ones, to carry it further, seem to allow YOU space.

I mean we've all seen the film of the Japanese and their metro piling in.

As to how the Center people relate to each other, and their need for a sense of worth among their peers,  the author has a paragraph near the end which I found interesting. What do you all think of this, this seems to the point:

"The Center people had two special problems in applying their standards of worth, both associated with their advanced age. In stable societies where the elderly have lived together for their entire life span, one's accomplishments during the productive year can be used as standards of worth and honor. Those accomplishments are ever present in the memory of peers who serve as natural witnesses. Everyone knows and remembers what has gone before. The past record of successes and failures is automatically used in valuing the elderly. When people have been uprooted and no longer live among those who witnessed their life, where no future accomplishments are possible because there is not enough time left them, they become completely dependent on their colleagues to voluntarily agree on their worth."

 I think that's a very wise statement.

" Others are needed to attest to one's claims concerning the past. Lacking peers or family who had witnessed their history, Center people for the most part could only turn to each other for validation, and it was usually given grudgingly. Hannah's comments on this were apt. "You notice around here you can always find someone who wants to kvetch." But halevai you get news that your grandson got a scholarship to medical school, you want someone to kvell with, all of a sudden everyone goes out the window". Sofie agreed sadly but rationalized, "You know what this is, Hannah?  To sing a song of joy to one whose heart is breaking is to pour vinegar on a wound. What else could you expect?"

"To allocate respect publicly to a peer when one feels ignored or disdained takes great character and generosity, perhaps more than can be expected of ordinary mortals. Center people shared each others griefs and struggles more easily then their joy or successes."

We've talked about the author's analyses of the situation. On this I think she makes a lot of sense, and I think it applies to more than the Center people, (for instance small towns or living in the same place for a long time) but what do you think? This, to me, explains a LOT and not only about the Center people but as Bubble says other types of Senior Homes.

[ginny]

We haven't talked, either, about who,  of the many people telling their stories at the beginning of the chapter, we found the most interesting or moving and why?

My gosh what stories. It's hard to pick one. Imagine being in one room with all those stories and backgrounds. I think, after long thought, I would choose Max, whose story is on page 115,  who gave his story in Yiddish, who walks 5 miles a day at 98. Whose father gave him away at 5.  Who ran away when he was 9. He ran to Vienna going there on the bottom of trains. ..who taught himself to read the papers...what a story, what endurance. Absolutely amazing. We should all tell our own stories to somebody if we haven't. I'm glad the author came along and wanted to do this study, these stories would have been lost. Wouldn't they?

Maybe we should tell a bit about our own stories here as part of the study experience? Or maybe just one interesting bit?  Some of you have lived very interesting lives. I'd like to hear more about them. I would personally be hard pressed to come up with much, about my own,  I have to be honest.

Whose story in the book seemed the most interesting or striking to you and why?

[bellamarie]

Ginny,

  Bellamarie, what you've said there, the "should have, would have, could have" remarks  as to Itzak's behavior,  seems to imply that Itzak, who I thought was the victim, caused his own abuse?  I may not understand what you're saying, that seems to be an issue with me today, for some reason.  Sorry if I have misunderstood. But if  that is the idea, I don't agree with it.

Yes, Ginny, I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. I do understand your point of view, and don't see it the same as you. I don't see Itzak as a victim, nor causing his own abuse, because I don't see what transpired as abusive. We can agree to disagree, and move on. 

Bubble, that is a very disheartening story of being let go over the phone and so unfairly.  I am so sorry and can see how it would cause you to feel depressed.  I'm glad you came to realize you were competent and deserved to be treated much better than this.

[Jonathan]

'And Itzak refused to continue as treasurer. His eyes had grown steadily worse. Shortly after, he had a stroke.'

'This afternoon Kominsky was not wearing his  lower denture. His once glorious smile was now lopsided and distubing. Flesh on his face hung loosely, but his eyes blazed as brightly as ever.'

'Whose story in the book seemed the most interesting or striking to you and why?'

For me it would be Kominsky himself. A man on a mission. Whose life, when he was a boy, was saved by the miraculous intervention of Elijah the prophet. A 'macher'. 'Someone who arranges, fixes, has connections; a big wheel; an operator'  (Joys of Yiddish) A man who wants to get the community back to its Jewish roots. Perhaps he was an advance scout for the Messiah. "The world is not ready.' would probably be in his report.

And so, he gets his chapter. And the author is proud of her artistry. Like Picasso, she reports it as she finds it. Could she have done it without Shmuel? Another great story. There are so many. Can we find some Chagall in the picture?

[BarbStAubrey]

Hmm I cannot say there is one story that gripped me more than the others - it was a tapestry of the early 20th and late 19th century in areas of Europe where Jews lives as a tribe.

As Sebastian Junger in his book, Tribe says, "Tribe is a chance to prove my worth to my community and my peers, but I lived in a time and a place where nothing dangerous ever really happened... How do you become an adult in a society that doesn't ask for sacrifice? How do you become a man in a world that doesn't require courage?" And their individual stories were full of sacrifice and courage.

He goes on to say, the book is about "what we can learn from tribal societies about loyalty and belonging and the eternal human quest for meaning. It is about why__ for many people__ war feels better than peace and hardship can turn out to be a great blessing and disasters are sometimes remembered more fondly than weddings or tropical vacations. Humans don't mind hardship, in fact they thrive on it, what they mind is not feeling necessary." 

That feeling of being "necessary" is how I see all of these characters - they no longer feel "necessary" to their children and so in order to feel "necessary" they challenge each other as they have developed into a new Tribe - the Tribe of the Venice Beach Center.

The stories of their childhood come from their experience living in small villages or a section of town that is all Jewish therefore, a village within a town. This is an anomaly to life in 20th century USA. Again, quoting from Sebastian Junger's book, "It's revealing, then, to look at modern society through the prism of more than a million years of human cooperation and resource sharing. Subsidence-level hunters aren't necessarily more moral than other people; they just can't get away with selfish behavior because they live in small groups where almost everything is open to scrutiny. Modern society, on the other hand, is a sprawling and anonymous mess where people can get away with incredible levels of dishonesty without getting caught. What tribal people would consider a profound betrayal of the group, modern society simply dismisses as fraud."

My thinking is that is what unknowingly Kominsky brought to the group - a modern approach that chaffed at the trust factor and integrity of group members - he represented the American Modern Society that those in the group looked at out of the corner of their eye, not trusting the moral quality of the new, certainly in face of their childhood memory where selfish behavior was from the outsider not from their fellow Jew.

Junger points out other differences that I think say a lot about the confusion those in the Center must feel - He says, "A modern soldier returning from combat -- or a survivor of Sarajevo -- goes from the kind of close-knit group that humans evolved from, back into a society where most people work outside their home, children are educated by strangers, families are isolated from wider communities, and personal gain almost completely eclipses collective good." 

I think the individual stories are collectively reinforcing their concept of a close-knit community where others, in their caring for each other, did not allow their 'brethren' to get away with anything. That is the bulwark against being swallowed up and made un-necessary in modern USA.

I like how Myerhoff says, "Kominsky left behind a few lasting achievements, a few lasting blows to individuals, but his most significant heritage was giving the old people an opportunity to resist him, in that way, renew their commitment to their beliefs, thier ties to each other, and clarify their understanding of their identity by having once more performed it." 

To me that says, they renewed their commitment to their California based Jewish Tribe.

[so P bubble]

Which character is  most interesting or moving?   I find it impossible to answer because they all are so familiar here.  I have heard a few versions of Max's experiences in early life,  I have seen honest people gloriously managing important tasks in their own way and being totally destroyed when challenged by "authority".  They were diminished and because maybe of their honesty  never defended themselves.  It is a sad fact that this is not an isolated story.

It makes me wonder if those vignettes of people in the Center are maybe a mirror of the Jewish society in Israel as well. I wonder if we are different from Americans, or other nationalities?

"I wonder how behavior changes with what we call the "private space"? "
hongfan, you hit it on the nail! 

The thing that was very hard for me to get used to when I first came to Israel was how people were all the time asking personal questions. Total strangers wanted to know your whereabouts, your family status or what you did in your past.  This could be the greengrocer where you were buying fruit,  the man putting gas in your car, or the person giving you directives on the street on how to get to a certain place.  It seems every body knows (or want to know) everything about others and they relish the time when they can share the information with their friends.  It probably increase their importance in their eyes?  I think we are the most gossipy people on earth!

Now this is changing.  The country has grown immensely since the 60s and with the succeeding waves of immigration, mainly the Ethiopian and the Russian, we are not the "small village" familiar to all.  Now we are a big country, the neighbors are not  any more friendly souls who would pop in at any time for a talk or a request for some sugar.  Seniors feels more isolated if living by themselves.  Life is not safe as it used to be:  it would be unthinkable nowadays to leave your front door unlocked day and night and open to all.

But I digress...  The Center people for me are a microcosm of what Israel was in the 50s and 60s. Today I feel at home with them.

[ginny]

I absolutely love what you all have said here. This is a Virtual Center. I want to take each in turn because they are wonderful.

But first, a seque: I  believe this book and discussion are taking over my life.  hahahaa  Last night I thought I am going to miss these Center people when they are gone (we've finished the book and the discussion is over) and suddenly realized (1)  they ARE gone and (2) we have no other knowledge of them because they all have fictitious names. That seemed a blow.

For a supposedly cast off old decrepit greenhorn ways bunch these folks are fascinating and very alive, aren't they? They have their own microcosm and it's interesting. Some of this is due to Myerhoff's really beautiful writing, whether or not we agree with her theories,  and I myself don't, with all of them, she's presented it masterfully and they are pretty unforgettable.

But in reading back over your posts:

Barbara and technology,  is there ANYTHING more frustrating?   But yesterday something happened which immediately made me think of the Center folks and Barbara's struggle with technology: Walgreen's Drug Store! YES!

Have you had dealings with the infamous CLOUD? oh yes the CLOUD? If you're on a trip or an outing,  and have taken too many photos with the iphone which are such good quality instead of the camera whose batteries keep running out, it innocently asks if you want to put the pictures on the CLOUD? Sure, why not? Yeah, sure, I need to catch this moment on film: do what you want.

You can't get them back off, that's why not. DIL says she puts hers on a flash-drive and takes that to the photo place: Eureka! Buy  a flash drive.  No dice, they will not come off.  Buy Omar's famous Flash drive guaranteed to get them off. Nothing. NOTHING. Is there ANYTHING that makes you feel as helpless and old  and left behind as  TGR:  Technology Gone Rampant?

 So down to the local drugstore which can print the pictures directly from the phone.  No they can't. Their HP computers where you can do it yourself have not kept pace with Apple, too many new changes, they can't get them OFF the ICLOUD.

Here comes the manager. He says I'll tell you how to do it, you look like a person who can follow directions.

I do? I perk up.  Zero track record so far after trying three days.  Nothing I've followed has worked. The print on the instructions for the new Omar's Lightning Stick (do NOT buy one unless you have a stationary magnifying glass), the print is -2 font and I'm not kidding.  It is NOT readable even with magnification.  To give you an idea, the manual is 2 1/2 inches square. The only way I can read it is to photograph it and blow it up on this website:

At any rate he says do you have a Walgreen's  App?

No?

Download it and it will tell you how to do it.  Oh more instructions that don't work.

No, he says, it's easy. He walks me thru it on his phone. It IS easy, when he does it.

Will it get my photos off the CLOUD?? The infamous CLOUD?

Yes and you can send them to us from home and we'll have them ready to go, all 606 of them in the morning. And you can edit them, choose this or that...and use the coupon there is always a coupon (yes there was for 30 percent off, no less).

So I went home, sat in the living room, downloaded the APP, renewed my prescriptions, and then sent them 550 photos, in sets, one of which was ready last night and now this morning they are all  ready. It's 9:26.

What this means is this: autonomy. Here I am nowhere near anything including a drugstore? But now I don't have to go in and sit there waiting for them to print my photos,  as I've seen everybody else does, that's a half hour trip one way (gas!)_ I can send them from the comfort of my home in lickety  split time TO the drugstore who will then print them with a 30 percent coupon off, and write me when ready and I can pick them up when I next go in and  I can also pick up my prescriptions, because the phone just rang as I was writing this and they are ready, too... (which they will also mail me free if I want), and what THIS means is I can stay here in my old age (assuming I survive) BECAUSE of technology which was not available to our Center Folks in the 70's. And it's easy. Technology as hongfan said earlier, to the rescue making our lives in old age more doable.

That is a very freeing thing that just happened all because of the kindness of this Walgreen's manager.

BUT here's the deal: if I do remain here on the farm,  I will lack the Center. Now how important IS a "Center" to the lives of the elderly?

  A couple of those "generic" questions remain unanswered.  Let's mop them up, or you can suggest another theme, before we move on.

Here's some we haven't touched yet, I am interested in your take on them?


1. What do you think the Center means to the Folks in the book?  (I think of them now as extended family).   If they did not have this Center, what would they do?

2. What made for successful aging among the elders?

3.  What do you think the psalm "So teach us to number our days, that we may get us a heart of wisdom" means to you?  What does it mean to them?

4. The title of the book is actually: Number Our Days: A Triumph of Continuity and Culture Among Jewish Old People in an Urban Ghetto. I just noticed that word Triumph this morning. IS this a triumph so far? We have half of the book left yet. So far, is it a Triumph of Continuity and Culture?

Why or why not?

 5. And here's one expressed in a letter to a website talking about the book (but unfortunately not discussing it or providing questions): The elders emphasize that they do not believe in the teachings of Judaism due to the consequences of religion during the Holocaust. However, they still hold dearly to their traditions. Myerhoff observes and explains that although the Jewish elderly are not religious, they still practice and uphold the Jewish practices in order to keep their culture alive. They cherish education and scripture study in order to keep their culture rich for the generations to come.

Is THAT why they are holding to their traditions?

What do you think?

It's like a Pandora's Box to come in here, wonderful comments, they are next up once the heading is restored.

All this for the weekend. I'll restore the heading and get this up and then enjoy talking  about the wonderful points you've all made.

[ginny]

Hahhaah, Jonathan with Kominsky as the story that made the greatest impression on you, what a HOOT.

It's strange but I found myself last night wondering what happened to him? How he ended up. And again I found myself frustrated that we will never know because the names are changed. I hope Myerhoff gives us some Coda (she could have from the outset, but the book is really masterfully written). I wish I could find out who they really WERE, I'd like to know how he ended up but maybe she will tell us.  I wish she were alive, we could ask.

You make a very good point, too. Could Myerhoff have done it without Shmuel? He's become another narrator hasn't he? I forgot about HIM and he's the one who really has stood out from the beginning. It IS hard to pick.


__________________________________
Barbara, another fabulous  post, I am so glad your eyes allow you to be among us again, we've missed that.

Junger points out other differences that I think say a lot about the confusion those in the Center must feel - He says, "A modern soldier returning from combat -- or a survivor of Sarajevo -- goes from the kind of close-knit group that humans evolved from, back into a society where most people work outside their home, children are educated by strangers, families are isolated from wider communities, and personal gain almost completely eclipses collective good." 

There's a very interesting set of letters this morning in the Wall Street Journal if anybody can see it about this very thing, how America is not what it was because the culture has changed. And it's not a case of sitting down to a table and talking because there is no misunderstanding, each side understands the other, it's about the divide in cultures, the writer was formerly an immigrant who now resides in America.  I thought that was striking. He says the predominant culture of America was once Christian but now is not and it's that that is causing misunderstandings..he doesn't use the word Tribe but he's talking about it. Fascinating. All the letter writers call for a de -escalation of the strident self aggrandizing rhetoric which they see in the Media and among the leaders.  Many worry there won't BE a  unified America when it's over. Fascinating thoughts for the morning.

This was wonderful: I think the individual stories are collectively reinforcing their concept of a close-knit community where others, in their caring for each other, did not allow their 'brethren' to get away with anything. That is the bulwark against being swallowed up and made un-necessary in modern USA.


I love that. We should put that in the heading. Do the rest of you agree or disagree?

And this one: I like how Myerhoff says, "Kominsky left behind a few lasting achievements, a few lasting blows to individuals, but his most significant heritage was giving the old people an opportunity to resist him, in that way, renew their commitment to their beliefs, their ties to each other, and clarify their understanding of their identity by having once more performed it."

How ironic is that? I would argue he didn't "give" that to the Center elders, they took it as their right. I agree his failure empowered them and apparently the Center is still there, as we've seen.

Good stuff!

[ginny]

And it's Saturday, and about time for our Ann to reappear and tell us how the move went and how things are going with her.  I'm looking forward to it.

__________________

Bubble: The thing that was very hard for me to get used to when I first came to Israel was how people were all the time asking personal questions. Total strangers wanted to know your whereabouts, your family status or what you did in your past.  This could be the greengrocer where you were buying fruit,  the man putting gas in your car, or the person giving you directives on the street on how to get to a certain place.  It seems every body knows (or want to know) everything about others and they relish the time when they can share the information with their friends.  It probably increase their importance in their eyes?  I think we are the most gossipy people on earth!

Yes yes yes, isn't it startling, and all these years I thought it was a characteristic of the North East: it's common there, not here? It's something I haven't seen in a long time. I thought it was to establish from the get go one's credentials so they could place you. I now think perhaps it's as you say, for the benefit of the person asking to increase their own importance by this knowledge.

What do the rest of you think?

I overheard a conversation  at a National Classical Conference 2 years ago between  a VIP in the field and a young PhD who had eagerly approached the VIP  and asked him a civil and happy question. The very first words out of the Eminent Personage's mouth were "where did you take your PhD?"  Not hello, not nice to meet you, "where did you take your PhD?"

My first thought was how rude, my second thought was that's old school, and is not like the norm, the people who now are the leaders are as unlike that as a cow is a butterfly...that approach  is  dying out, it certainly startled the questioner, but he had impeccable credentials and bounced right back and they were able to converse.  But I still wonder why it was necessary. I thought initially  it was a put down where this personage  was trying to establish his own credentials. It's like anything else: the bigger they are,  the nicer, especially in Classics, so that put him (and he may have been totally innocent) way down in my estimation.

BUT I am  finding in my old age I need to work on negativity  and being critical (it's so easy) and in this situation, in retrospect, I need to give the poor guy a break, he's  an éminence Grise, he might have felt intimidated, too, in such company, and like Kominsky, eager to show he still had game and was a VIP. Which he was.  And to be fair, in such situations I also have made ridiculous statements with no such need,  at such meetings,  and usually I end up  saying the most stupid things sometimes . So  I can't throw stones, but that IS what he said. And I would never have said that, can't imagine why anybody would, but then, again, he probably  would cut off a toe than say the stupid things I have said, so there!

But that WAS the norm in conversation, certainly at Tennannah Lake  House in the early 60's,  you were lucky to get past 2 people without giving your entire life story.

And your thoughts there  on what is changing, not only in Israel but in America is right on with the letters to the editor this morning I mentioned above.

Things are changing,  our dollar bills proclaim Novus ordo seclorum, the Center people were keeping them the same. Which is the best way?

____

And this was a good point, Bellamarie: There was no compromising on either side, so now we will see what becomes of the Center that was in dire straits before Kominsky took over.  I have not read ahead, so it will be interesting to see how they are able to keep it going.     


Yes, it's fascinating to me that this non fiction analysis really reads with all the interest of a novel. I'm looking forward to finding that out, too. I do wish I could type Kominsky without spell check underlining it in red. No matter how I spell it, it's red.


_______________


Hongfan, "I wonder how behavior changes with what we call the "private space"?

Now THERE is a question!  I've been thinking about it since you asked. What do YOU think? What do you all think? What does the answer mean?

[ginny]

Just in case you missed this I've just added this to the above post: the manual shown here is 2 1/2 inches square:

 The only way I can read it is to photograph it and blow it up on this website:

[BarbStAubrey]

Haha Oh oh oh - around here your cashé is who is or was your Daddy - it starts with hearing your name when introduced and then, Oh are you related to - or - I know folks up in Caldwell County named ..... do you know them - or - my daughter went to school with a ... any relation? Oh then your daddy must be....

In a round about way it always gets back to who is or was your daddy and then that is the start of a shared conversation that spins off into anything from gardening to politics often as the result of the interest that was known and associated with your Daddy. You could be the Dean of the Law School at UT and it would not matter if your Daddy was a small town sheriff the Daddy has more clout when folks meet and ever after the first thing out of people's mouths is - How is your Daddy do'an...? Or 'How is...whom ever it was that started the connection that made you a part of their 'tribe'.

Of course with the tremendous growth, with folks moving from all areas of the country, mostly California you have to get out of town now to hear this as the typical conversation starter. With so many moving here as part of the tech or medical community - each of those groups have their look and only after exchanging some observation within their field using language that no one but those in the field understand and there is an enthusiastic agreement about the issue raised, then and only then do they shake hands, look each other in the eye and introduce themselves. So again, the 'Tribal' cashé appears to be specific language describing specific issues or event.

What was that book that was all the rage last year about how neighborhoods develop into a certain political leaning since Dems prefer one set of conveniences and culture as the Pubs have their needs and preferences so that neighborhoods become conclaves of political party leanings and therefore, it cannot all be blamed on Gerrymandering. 

[BarbStAubrey]

As to what they would do if the Center were not there - hmm - the question then would be did they move to the area because of the Center or did the Center evolve because many elder Jewish folks moved into the area.

I could be wrong but it seems to me that Jews share a common speech pattern and so without the Center I'm thinking they would just have to open their mouth and a deeper conversation would ensue that would be followed by sitting and talking for hours on the benches along the beach that would soon evolve into meeting for coffee or breakfast - there is usually some kind of AARP or Retirement group that meets and I could see them joining and with enough going to whatever the senior activity center it soon would have Jewish personality.

I had not seen that natural flow of introduction with Jewish folks but we had seen this 'happening' when a small group of us toured the museums and great houses in England - we were a small group and one of the ladies was originally from Louisiana - I believe we were at Hatfield but maybe not - where ever we were, there was a lunch room - here we were commenting and discussing the needlework on the bed canopy and some young guy comes up and asks our friend if she is from Calcasieu Parish - astounded she turns and they struck up a conversation with him saying it was awhile and it brought back his memories of home - well they went on and on into their memories - sat together as we took lunch and of course exchanged contact information - ever after he was on her Christmas card list. And so, if the way we speak, the pattern of our words, binds us than, once out of our 'Tribal' land we are identified as member of a land based tribe as soon as we open our mouths. 

Funny is how we not only trust someone in the midst of strangers who we had found some connection but I know I have expectations of behavior and just cannot imagine anyone from Austin ever carrying out some sort of criminal activity - I think that is the shock we all feel when our local news tells us about folks we know or know of that were apprehended for something that we assume happens over there but certainly not in our town. And so I can see another way the folks from the Center were feeling when some of their assumptions about behavior and intent were in their thinking disrespected.

[bellamarie]

Oh Ginny, I am right there with you feeling as if this book has taken over my life..... or at least my mind.  I find myself constantly thinking of quotes from the book and rethinking the posts all of you here are so eloquently sharing.  I feel so blessed to have Bubble and Hongfan with us to help us with seeing their views from another culture, not to mention having Bubble give us her very own personal insights into being a Jew.  This book has fascinated and frustrated me at the same time.  I keep sharing it with my hubby and he is now asking me,  "So how's the book coming along?" It's got him thinking too.

Barb, As always you bring more thought provoking material from yet another book to the discussion.  How perfect timing is this to hear from Sebastian Junger in his book, Tribe.  "Humans don't mind hardship, in fact they thrive on it, what they mind is not feeling necessary."

Isn't this the angst of it all?  I so believe this truly is the pinnacle of  life.  Every individual regardless of their age wants to feel necessary.  As we age and our children have lives of their own, we do sit back and wonder if we matter to them as much, since they no longer need us in the ways they did before.  I have to crack up because my hubby and I were sitting out on our patio swing yesterday just watching the birds, squirrels and rabbits in my sanctuary I created this Spring.  This is the first day we actually were alone, no plans, no grandkids, and nothing on the agenda that needed to be done, so what do you think he says to me...."Do you feel like the kids just don't want us around as much since they moved?"  I looked at him and said, "Are you kidding me?  This is the first day we have had in months, maybe years to just sit and not have to run to one of the grandkids sports/school events, we just were at their house having a huge 4th of July celebration,  our other son is having a big swim party next week end and our family get together for my birthday will be the following week end.  I think they want us just as much, you just have forgotten how to enjoy down time away from them."  I know the changes are going to be difficult for him, he has been so very active and close to our son who has had him as an assistant coach in every sport our grandkids have played the last ten years.  He will miss that time with him and being active.  I know he will have to find ways to fill those hours, but mostly, I think he wants to still feel needed.  Necessary!

Ginny, forgive me when I tell you how your situation with the photos made me laugh out loud.  I knew where it was all headed before reading each step you had to take to successfully get your pictures.  Technology, we have a love/hate relationship with it.  I have kept myself up to date with all of it because after teaching computers when they first began in the schools back in the 80s I have been fascinated with them.  I just spent three hours at Verizon refusing to allow the salesman to take advantage of me thinking I was too old and ignorant to know what was what.  He was young, knowledgeable and thought he had me hook, line and sinker with his sales pitch.  I let him go on, and on, and on, then when he was finished I responded,  "So can you please show me the lowest price plan with the most updated apps android, since I no longer am emotionally attached to Apple products?" He laughed and said,  "I can see you are a person who likes the nicer products but not willing to pay the price."  I said,  "In the end, my hubby just needs a smart phone that will ring, send a text and keep him connected." I got out of there with a lower plan than anyone could believe, including the fast talker salesman.  He just shook his head, smiled at me and said,  "You are one tough cookie." I smiled back and said,  "You betcha, have a nice day."  I feel like that is pretty much how the Center people felt deciding to reject Kominsky and all his modern, up to date ideas.  Ultimately, they knew there were only certain things they needed, and all the bells and whistles were not necessary for them to live in the Center with each other.  Just the basics to keep them together, connected and feeling necessary.

Jonathan,  I am with you, Kominsky's story touched me in a way I can't explain.  He truly is a person I would have loved to have met and sat down and got to know better.  I would love to know what happened to him.  The fact he was touched as a child by the great Prophet Elijah just gave me chill bumps.  That's a story you can't make up!  He knew his life would and must have meaning, a purpose, and he knew he must do for others.  He had the best of intentions, he just maybe didn't have the wisdom yet to know how to go about it as Shmuel pointed out.  So far, Kominsky and Shmuel have had the greatest impressions on me. 

Bubble,   

The thing that was very hard for me to get used to when I first came to Israel was how people were all the time asking personal questions

.

I had to giggle when I read this because my hubby was a letter carrier for the U.S. Post Office for forty years, he knew everything and everybody on his route and in our parish.  He has been retired for five years and seems to now know everybody and everything about the people in our neighborhood.  He had a walking route all those years, he always took the time to talk to all his patrons, the same as when he takes our dog for his daily walk, he takes the time to get to know the neighbors.  When I go shopping at the mall he sits and talks to total strangers and comes away with more personal information in just a short amount of time, and it always amazes me.  I've come to the conclusion from watching him, that if we don't ask questions we will never get to know the person.  I don't mind at all when someone asks me questions in general or personal.  I really am an open book, and if any part of my experiences in life can help someone else by sharing it, I am all for sharing.  Believe me, I could write a book with what all I have gone through in my lifetime..... as a matter of fact I have two chapters already written. 

[bellamarie]

Ginny it really is unbelievable how small fonts are.  What I am finding more upsetting as I am aging, is the problems with being able to read small text.  I get so upset when I am in the store or at church, and can't read the price on items, or sing the words in my hymnal.  I have bifocal glasses, the lower part for reading and the upper part for far away.  The reading is fine, but I HAVE to remove them when I am not reading because the far away part does not give me as clear vision, as when they are off.  I am so glad everything worked out for you.

Barb, Interesting point about the Jewish people having their own pattern of speech and would probably end up forming yet another group somewhere else.  I just think having this Center at this time is vital to them and I would hate to think of it closing. 

[hongfan]

2. What made for successful aging among the elders?

I think, Ginny, this is among the original questions that has drawn you to this book? I have thought about this on and off since Chapter 1, I can tell you what I think right now but may evolve as we go along with the book.

I see in them something they held so dearly in their hearts, something very meaningful and much bigger than their own lives - for the nation of Israel, for holding up their dignities to the outside world, for keeping an important identity - being a Jew, a good Jew. I think that connected them with a source of energy, a source of vitality. It reminds me something I read before, in China, at the end of the Ming Dynasty and the beginning of the Qing Dynasty (from early 17th century and the last dynasty in China), there were quite a few famous scholars who were actively involved in anti-Qing activities. And you know, 90+% of Chinese belongs to one ethnic group - called Han (which is the same name of the Han Dynasty), and Qing Dynasty was founded by what called "barbarians" from the north, a much smaller ethnic group. Those scholars were trying to get the people to raise up to "expel the barbarians" out of the land. Many of them were from wealthy and noble families, under Qing, they got jailed, got exiled, ran from place to place, lost all the wealth, lost families and always in danger of losing their lives. But many of them lived into their 80s, this was significantly long compared to the average life span at that time, and this made me think about the Center people, and also what Barbara mentioned earlier "Humans don't mind hardship, in fact they thrive on it". These scholars certainly thrived on it!

Now this is surely one case of "being needed", and I think the more significant the cause that one feels about, the bigger life force that one is connected to, that makes one forget about the aching joints, the weaker legs, the blurring visions, and the question of aging itself?

3.  What do you think the psalm "So teach us to number our days, that we may get us a heart of wisdom" means to you?  What does it mean to them?

I don't have a clue. I don't know. But if I look at what before that line:

Man is like a breath,
His days are as a fleeting shadow.

In the morning he flourishes and grows up like grass,
In the evening he is cut down and withers.

So teach us to number our days,
That we may get us a heart of wisdom.

It reminded me a question that was asked "if you only have three days to live, what would you do?"

I don't have an answer for this question either, I wish those who have faced those situations would tell us what they have decided to do, that I think will lend me some wisdom. But if you have thought about it and know what you would do, I am curious to know?

4. The title of the book is actually: Number Our Days: A Triumph of Continuity and Culture Among Jewish Old People in an Urban Ghetto. I just noticed that word Triumph this morning. IS this a triumph so far? We have half of the book left yet. So far, is it a Triumph of Continuity and Culture?

I don't know whether to continue a culture in itself is a triumph or not. To me culture is formed with a reason, and when that reason changes, the culture needs to change. I lamented earlier that China has thrown out its traditions but I never think we need to bring all the traditions back, some shall be let gone, but a lot still relevant and even more relevant than before shall be brought back. I remember a few years back some Japanese claimed that Japan is the true preserver of Chinese traditions, that certainly enraged so many Chinese folks. But I did see some merits in that claim, when I was in Kyoto some years ago, in the park, the famous one (I need to search up the name, I forgot now) which it's so lovely that you saw the big red maple trees, the temples, and many beautiful teenage girls in their pretty kimonos, it's just so lovely. And you turn around, you see all the Chinese characters around you, on the temples, on the stones, in the names, I almost forgot I was in Japan.

China has thrown away its traditions in a wholesale way for reasons, and if we bring some of them back some day, it will also be for reasons. It is all about adaptation. To stick to a tradition itself doesn't tell me a lot. But in the case of the Center people and in the context of what Jewish collectively has gone through in the history, I do see the significance for the continuity of tradition, or the Jewish identity, I do see why the author called it a triumph. And I admire that courage and resilience, that "toughness" in adversity. Hats off to the Center people and Jews around the world!

[hongfan]

Hongfan, "I wonder how behavior changes with what we call the "private space"?

Now THERE is a question!  I've been thinking about it since you asked. What do YOU think? What do you all think? What does the answer mean?

I have a hypothesis: older cultures and/or homogenous cultures have smaller "private space" than newer and/or heterogeneous cultures, I see this in Chinese vs. Americans. I see this in the book. How about other older cultures? Do you know?

I read an article before, saying today people all feel they are entitled to privacy, but privacy was a relatively new concept in human history, it was a by-product of owning private properties. That made me think.

I tend to agree with the author, and I guess in ancient times, privacy was a nonexistence and a very strange concept, it is "un-nature", because, and this is a because you are entitled to a big laugh, I won't mind at all, that I think our ancestors could sense each other's thinking and see through each other. Now we all know that, when we think, our thoughts are coming out as electrical waves. You can use equipment to detect them, and many researchers are working on this - capture the brain waves and use them to direct the artificial limbs to do things. I forgot the term for this, but it has been in research for years, so for instance, a person with an artificial arm, when he looks at the water bootle and thinks "I want to get that bottle", the arm connected with a circuit that captures and decodes it to a command that directs the arm to reach out to the bottle. Some people with Qigong practice can sense other people's thinking - probably their inner environment become much quieter and thus their antennas become much more sensitive. This seems magic to us now but probably was a very common ability in very ancient time. As an analogy, today we all start to use navigation systems, I never have a good sense of direction, so I tend to think I gained all and lost nothing. But my husband has a good sense of directions and now he is also using GPS, so I think his brain muscle related to directions will be used less and less, and eventually will be weakened. Think about 1000 years later people may loose the of sense of directions all together? I think we have been on the decline curve for loosing abilities for a long long time, every time we use a new tool, we offloaded a chunk of our ability, lost a chunk of intelligence, and we have been accelerating on that curve in the recent history.

So, I further think, our ancestors didn't need languages either, their connections between each other were directly biological, which means they fully understood each other, there was no room for misunderstanding.

Why do I think they could see through things. Well, look at Chinese acupuncture,  those meridians or acupuncture points. How did ancient ancient Chinese know where those 300+ acupuncture points are? You cannot open the body and see them. Now people say if you measure the electric-magnetic field around those acupuncture points, they tend to have stronger field. Some of the ancient Chinese literature says those acupuncture points were observed by ancient Chinese by naked eyes, those are the points that can emit lights!

So my hypothesis is that at the beginning human kind were connected with each other directly and in that sense was a unity, a "one". Along the way, we started to loose that ability, and then languages were invented, misunderstanding appeared, confusions, divisions, wars followed, and more tools were invented, more confusions were introduced, and it's continuing this way to this day.

Privacy was one of the human inventions in that process. I tend to think the older cultures have maintained the smaller "private space" along the time line as a component of their traditions? This inevitably have people bounded to each other, sometimes not so willingly, sometimes not so comfortably, and some times led to conflicts, more easily stepping onto each other, hurting each other; however ironically you do feel more grounded, you lost freedom in exchange of stability and security. If you ask any first generations of immigrants, including myself, no matter what you may achieve in the new land, that sense of security you can never gain back again, I guess it is a sweet and sour thing.

By the way, have you seen the movie The Joy Luck Club, if you haven't, I highly recommend it. It is a wonderful movie, about 4 pairs of mothers (born in China) and daughters (born in US) and how they struggled to keep close and understand each other across the chasms between Chinese and American cultures. I guess the Center people may very well resonate with what are depicted in the movie.

[BarbStAubrey]

Like  you Hongfan I had no clue what was the meaning of,  "So teach us to number our days, that we may get us a heart of wisdom" - You at least put in context but still it flies above my head - what the value of numbering your days is that it should be taught I cannot even guess and by numbering your days you get to the heart of wisdom - ??!!??

A calendar number's our days but checking the calendar did not especially bring any insight or wisdom any more than watching the hands of a clock or as the old saying about 'watching a pot boil' suggesting 'a watched pot never boils'.

I'm thinking that goes for life - looking and checking for success never gets you there - doing and improving your best is the way to fulfilling work that piles up and success creeps in without you even noticing.

And so I am really not sure what the quote is getting to but if it is watching your days is a way towards wisdom then I see another side. You do not watch you do... even after observing unless you do the observed is stuck in your thoughts with no visible sign it even exists.

[hongfan]

America is not what it was because the culture has changed. And it's not a case of sitting down to a table and talking because there is no misunderstanding, each side understands the other, it's about the divide in cultures, the writer was formerly an immigrant who now resides in America.  I thought that was striking. He says the predominant culture of America was once Christian but now is not and it's that that is causing misunderstandings..he doesn't use the word Tribe but he's talking about it. Fascinating. All the letter writers call for a de -escalation of the strident self aggrandizing rhetoric which they see in the Media and among the leaders.  Many worry there won't BE a  unified America when it's over. Fascinating thoughts for the morning.

I am actually interested in what if this topic is written by US born American white, if he/she would agree with the view. I think for an immigrant, like myself, and if non Christian, I may not have the proper breadth and depth to provide a fair assessment on the culture changes. At least myself won't have that confidence.

But I do tend to agree with the statement "All the letter writers call for a de -escalation of the strident self aggrandizing rhetoric which they see in the Media and among the leaders." I think many of our politicians are giving out false hopes and illusions to people who may not know what is going on around the globe, and lead them to be less prepared and more hurt when the reality kicks in later. For one, US is working on Industry 4.0 and trying to bring back the manufacturing industry from overseas, it all sounds good, but if people thinks that means manufacturing jobs will reappear, that is an illusion, those jobs are lost forever, the robots will be running the factories, China has speed up replacement of labors with robots, because China has become too expensive now for low skill labors. Some politicians make people think they can prevent future outsource to overseas, but that is not the issue for the future, young people have to be made known what are going to happen. Things have changed, the old days won't be back, it's not only for them, it's for everyone of us.

[hongfan]

Barbara,

I love very much the last long post you have written analyzing what is going on among the Center People, when I was reading it yesterday, I was thinking: if I were the editor, I would want to put Barbara's in and take some of the author's analysis out. I had some similar feeling but I couldn't have articulated that well as you have done. Love it!

[hongfan]

Bellamarie, this morning I was thinking to myself, I felt so honored to be with all of you here - you all have so much more experiences than I have, and have so much more that you can teach me. I am very grateful. I don't know why it jumped into my mind, maybe we had some channel connected?

Ginny, if you don't have much to say about your life, I guess nothing of my life is worth of mentioning. I have a few close mentors/friends in their 70s and they have been very active in their volunteer services, but whenever I mentioned that my  wonderful Latin teacher has volunteered to teach Latin for 12 years, day in and day out, 12 classes for the past year alone, everyone was a WOW. I think it is not difficult to do something for some time, but to do it for 12 years and still so passionate about it, I don't know how many of us can do that. I am pretty sure you are an angel, I just don't know which class you are in?

[hongfan]

The other day I was listening to the song Oyfn Pripetshik, it's just so beautiful, tears came to my eyes. I heard this song from Schindler's List but never knew what it is. Thanks to our book, I know now.

I copied the lyrics here, isn't it so beautiful?

Oyfn Pripetshik
[At the hearth]
By Mark Warshavsky

In the little hearth flickers a little flame,
Warmth spreads through the house,
And the rabbi teaches little children
The Hebrew Aleph-bet.
 
Listen carefully, remember, little ones,
What you're learning now,
Repeat it once again, again and yet again,
The sign under the Aleph is O.
 
Study, children, with great desire,
Don't let your learning lag;
Whoever learns the lesson very quickly
Will receive a flag.
 
Study, little ones, do not be afraid,
Every beginning is hard,
Happy is the man who studies Torah,
Great is his reward.
 
When, dear children, you will older be
You will understand it all:
The pain that lies within these letters
And the tears that fall.
 
As you endure our years of suffering,
Their burden you will bear,
Be inspired by these little letters,
Their message for all to share.
 
In the little hearth flickers a little flame,
Warmth spreads through the house,
And the rabbi teaches the little children
The Hebrew aleph-bet.

Barbara, I have an idea, if this is the song for Hebrew class, probably the poem on Number Our Days is for Arithmetic class

And if I am still clueless by the time we finish the book, I at least gain the wisdom of knowing I don't have the wisdom? 

[hongfan]

A jew is one by birth, from a Jewish mother since we follow the matriarchal line.

Bubble - do Jewish carry on mother's family name? do a Jewish couple live with the bride's parents? does the groom need to change his last name to the bride's last name? and does a child's name bear anything from the father side at all?

I am curious how it works.

[bellamarie]

hongfan,  I love the song.  Now I have to ask Bubble, does the Hebrew aleph-bet letters each have a significance rather than spelling words like our English Alphabet? 

And if I am still clueless by the time we finish the book, I at least gain the wisdom of knowing I don't have the wisdom? 

I simply love this statement.  I too will have gained the knowledge I still do not have the wisdom, and I will continue to search for answers.  I am not Jewish, but I do continue to study the Bible for more knowledge and wisdom. 

[bellamarie]

Well now Hongfan and Bubble you have me thinking...... I know it was important for Jesus's bloodline be of the line of David, hence that is the matriarchal line, Mary's genealogy, but  I am confused when you say: 

A jew is one by birth, from a Jewish mother since we follow the matriarchal line.

I always thought it was through the male lineage. 

http://www.thecatholictreasurechest.com/geneal.htm
Jewish law required that genealogies were to be through the line of the males, and not the females...

Num 1:17-18, "So Moses and Aaron took these men who had been designated, and assembled the whole community on the first day of the second month. Every man of twenty years or more then declared his name and lineage according to clan and ancestral house."

Keeping accurate records of genealogies was very important to the Jews. The Jewish historian, Josephus, wrote that Public Records* recorded genealogies from the oldest to the youngest, and Private Records went from the youngest back to the oldest, and these genealogies were passed down through the generations. This was done in part in order to prevent unqualified persons from gaining positions through their ancestry. See Ezra 2:61-63, and Neh 7:63-65 where some priests were rejected because they could not prove their Levitical ancestry.

When I was at Mass today I was thinking of this book, questions started coming to my mind and one of them were,  If some Jews do not believe in God, then do they believe in the Ten Commandments, or in Moses?  I know Shmuel stated that the Jews in Heaven would be arguing with the Lord about His Laws, so does that mean they don't follow the Ten Commandments?  I am just curious.

[so P bubble]

If the mother is Jewish, then her children will also be. The father could be Jewish or not.  I was told that is is because you can always be sure of who the mother is, not the same about the father.  I suppose that nowadays with DNA testing... but that is the rule from way back.

honfan, no the family name is the one from the father like everywhere else in the world. And yes, often the young couple live with the bride's family until they can afford a place of their own.

bellamarie, the Hebrew alphabet is more that just letters.  another use is that each letter represent a digit.  The latin digit do not exist in Hebrew, so the 1st letter is = to 1, the next =2, etc.  Dates are written in the value of the letters.
Apart from that, there is a special meaning attached to different groups of letters.  This is called Gematria

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gematria  And that gives a hidden meaning to some texts. 

now look at this-  Just the beginning, not the further French commentaries.  It explain the hidden messages of letters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF6hZJvsfc4

About Jews who do not believe in God.  How can we generalize, since belief is so personal?
In the book somewhere, it is said that it is not the belief in God, but the fact that one is good, try to help others, be considerate etc that is the important point. Yes, it is part of the commandments, but one follow that not because they are the commandments but  because it is part of a line of conduct to be good and respectful of others.   I am not sure that answer your question.

Do YOU believe in Moses? After all he is not God, I think mainly a real man who was a leader.