Number Our Days

[so P bubble]

The Book Club Online is the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

They say that growing old is not for sissies. Are they right? When Anthropologist Dr. Barbara Myerhoff received a grant to study aging she decided to do it on subjects in the USA, and let them speak for themselves.

The result is an "often funny, deeply moving narrative of human dignity and courage."

 "One of those rare books that leave the reader somehow changed."-- Bel Kaufman.

Join us! 

Questions to Ponder on  Chapter 4

Chapter 4: "We Fight to Keep Warm."


1. Chapter 4, "We Fight to Keep Warm," is full of ideas.  Was there one idea that stood out for you over the others? If so what was it?

2. This is the chapter Jonathan referred to earlier when Myerhoff expresses irritation and impatience with the Center residents and their quarreling. Later she wonders why she was so irritated. What turned her around? What was the message of the apple skin? Do you find yourself irritated with the Center folks at the end of this chapter or more sympathetic?

3. The Evil Eye and Superstition are very well explained in this chapter. Were you surprised? Are YOU superstitious in any way? Or are you more like Basha, "Myself, I don't believe in these things, but it doesn't hurt to be careful." (page 154). Are there any superstitions in 2017 that people now  believe? What about Friday the 13th? Black cats? Walking under ladders. "Bread and Butter?" How many can you think of? But witchcraft? Was that a surprise?

4. Why is Anna so mysteriously silent always? What does that accomplish?

5. "A frontal attack would tail, but what that strategy might be, no one could foresee." What does that mean?  Page 158.

6. Why did Abe invite Dr. Cohen to try 4 sessions of group counseling? What was the result? Did he help the situation or make it worse? Is there anything he could have done to change the situation?

7. What was the funniest remark made out of at least 100 in this chapter? Which one made you laugh the most? Who made it?

8. Why does Myerhoff say the Jews give  so many nicknames: to people, towns, animals, families? 169.  What do nicknames normally show?

9. Myerhoff sees Anger as a positive thing in the lives of these Center people.   Many people would argue that  Anger is self defeating, and even harmful. What do you think? Do you agree with her about the role anger plays in establishing power  to the Center folks?  These things are discussed on 184, 185 and 187.

10. In this chapter Myerhoff talks about the personal Power we've been talking about and she also talks about the "Martha" effect I mentioned earlier in an old vaudeville joke.   On the latter she says, "For people in such straits as they, nothing is impersonal. Their condition swells until it fills the world. Solipsism is a certain mark of those too long abused. A rainy day  is an  unkind attack, a broken zipper a manifestation of the hostility of the universe. In many ways, these  small  challenges an be turned into triumph. Such misfortunes, minute in other people's lives, were enormous in theirs. Their affairs were not miniature to them, through in the larger arenas of the outside world, they would appear so. Our activities swell to fill the frames in which they occur." (189)

What do you think of this analysis? Is it only to those who have suffered oppression or can it be to anybody who is "down" about one thing or another? Do you think her last sentence is correct?

11.  What's the best vignette you took from this entire chapter?


 I have a new appreciation for the photo on the front of the book. Who do you think that IS?





What do YOU think?


 

http://www.oztorah.com/2009/08/36-hidden-saints-ask-the-rabbi/http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/gematria/

[ginny]

Sorry, have been off on an unexpected family matter, but what wonderful conversations and points here! Way to go!

Oh yes, Barbara, I've encountered this: Haha Oh oh oh - around here your cashé is who is or was your Daddy Absolutely. I know people who wouldn't buy a car unless they knew the father or family of the salesman, and who don't mind probing to get it. I think, as Barbara says later, they feel more trust, however misplaced.  You're absolutely right.

Worse is the one who starts out telling you who their "daddy" was. I've met them, too.  The first time was a shock, I must say, I had no idea who "dad" was, had never heard of him and had no idea how I should respond. Was he an ax murderer? Was he a Senator?  Why does it matter? REALLY not into that, or anything connected with it. I am not sure why, I don't lack family connections.

I agree with this, too: And so I can see another way the folks from the Center were feeling when some of their assumptions about behavior and intent were in their thinking disrespected. And so I can see another way the folks from the Center were feeling when some of their assumptions about behavior and intent were in their thinking disrespected.

Bellamarie, it WAS funny because it was so frustrating but it sure ended well. And today my DIL showed me some functions I did not know were on the Iphone, including the ability to lighten the photos THERE instead of the awful PSP 7.  OH I could write a book about my conversations with the tech people, the latest was DISH. Boy howdy.

That's a lovely story about your husband in his walking as mail carrier and meeting people. I really think it's cool how you are sharing the book and discussion with him. I talk about it to everybody, too, in fact last night I started reading Neither Here Nor There (Bill Bryson) for the sheer escapism of it and laughed so hard I could not go to sleep. The man is a HOOT.

This has been a good experience. It was Jonathan who recommended it and as usual he's right on, but you all have turned it into something memorable, and I'm really enjoying it.

more...

[bellamarie]

Thank you Bubble for the explanation of the Hebrew Alphabet and the link. 

It does answer my question about the Commandments some what.  As far as Moses, yes, I do believe he was appointed by God to be the leader to bring His people to the promised land.  I also believe Moses did go and receive the Commandments from God.  When I asked did non believers believe in Moses, I meant did they see him as appointed by God.  It's not a trick question, truly I am trying to see where there are similarities between different faiths/religions/beliefs. 

Thank you so much for clarifying differences.  Before this book I had never heard of Jews not believing in God, this is new to me.  I appreciate all the help you can provide.  I do understand it is personal, and in the book there are believers and non believers.  I guess for me being a Catholic Christian it is more simpler, because the guidelines to be a Catholic Christian, is to believe the same way, which is in the Blessed Trinity.  At every Mass we profess our faith through the Apostles Creed.  With this book learning a Jew is not of a faith or belief but of a birth is so new.  All I can say is look out Deacon Jim when our Bible study resumes in Sept., because I've got a whole lot of questions for him. 

Ginny are we ready to move on to the next chapter?

[ginny]

Bellamarie, there's worse on the small print. I pulled it out and showed it to my youngest son who immediately without glasses read it. READ IT!! I said how can you even SEE that? He said well it IS small.

SMALL is not the word.  THAT type of thing keeps reinforcing to me that I am getting...no...not getting, AM  old. And the words of Myerhoff there about how they had reached a point where accomplishment would be denied them in their old age scares me to death. I keep telling myself she wrote in the '70's, and she is dead wrong about elders not being able to learn. They may not learn like a child (the newest research says drink caffeine if you want your brain to react like a child's does, shuts off something or enhances something or whatever, I'm drinking it.)  _ But nobody wants a Walter Winchell over-voice telling THEM that the door has closed on any further accomplishment.

Max accomplished a lot  at 98 for me with his story.

__________________________

Hongfan, that was a lovely post about continuing traditions and China and Japan. I don't know whether to continue a culture in itself is a triumph or not. To me culture is formed with a reason, and when that reason changes, the culture needs to change.   That's a good point, too.  What IS a tradition?

I always think of the family that...I can never tell this story correctlyjjh, but they always cut a piece of meat the same way to make the same dish, cut the lower left corner off.  Finally a child asked the great grandmother why they did that. She said it was because when she was young they did not have a big enough pan to roast it in so they had to cut it. So all the following generations had done that, too.  I know I've mistold the story but that's the gist of it, a tradition formed of necessity, continued for sentiment's sake.

Imagine knowing the difference in Japanese and Chinese characters!! I would never have known.

Oh and thank you very much for the kind words on our Latin initiative. It's not all that unusual, actually. It just happens to be a field that you can continue your entire life, and a lot of people do.

I loved your quoting of Oyfn Pripetshik, thank you so much for bringing it here.

This post was a real eye opener for me:

For one, US is working on Industry 4.0 and trying to bring back the manufacturing industry from overseas, it all sounds good, but if people thinks that means manufacturing jobs will reappear, that is an illusion, those jobs are lost forever, the robots will be running the factories, China has speed up replacement of labors with robots, because China has become too expensive now for low skill labors. Some politicians make people think they can prevent future outsource to overseas, but that is not the issue for the future, young people have to be made known what are going to happen. Things have changed, the old days won't be back, it's not only for them, it's for everyone of us.

I did not know that and never would have considered it until you mentioned it! Thank you!

________________

Bubble, if the mother is Jewish, what was  Fiorello LaGuardia? His mother was Jewish and I think her father was a rabbi. Obviously his father was Italian. He was Episcopalian by choice. Does this make him a Gentile or a Jew?

 I am trying to get evidence to refute something somebody said to me when we started reading the book, that a  Gentile can never understand Judaism.

__________________________________

Hongfan, I thought your post on losing ability to machines was spot on. I just read something yesterday that measured the brains of people who only sit ant watch TV and the decline in cognitive waves in the brain or something.  SCARY! Get away from that TV and think. Calculators and iphones to do simple math. Nobody teaching the times tables any more. It's something else.

I read an article before, saying today people all feel they are entitled to privacy, but privacy was a relatively new concept in human history, it was a by-product of owning private properties. That made me think.

Really!  Isn't that interesting?

Oh The Joy Luck Club, I haven't seen the movie but I think I've read the book 5 times. I love it. I've read all her books except the last two.


_____________________________

Speaking of reading books, have any of you read Chaim Potok? I read all his on Hasidim, too. How beautifully and eloquently he writes of growing up in that branch if Judaism (is it?)

I've been wondering when or if they might appear here.  They were mentioned in the last chapter but now in this one Kominsky has brought an Hasid rabbi to announce the  Center would now keep kosher and who left abruptly when consternation broke out.

Where do they fit in to our picture here with the Ashkenazi and the  Sephardi? Are they another branch? How many branches are there? How do they differ? I  know Bubble mentioned them quite early on in the discussion.

____________________________

And finally, have  we talked about all the issues in this chapter (or book) so far and we're ready to move on?

In Edit: I see that Bellamarie has posted while I was laboriously typing these out, and yes, I agree: do  you all  think we could tackle Chapter 4 (it's 40 more pages) by Wednesday? We can still discuss anything you'd like till then?

[ginny]

One thing we might think to talk about while we read Chapter 4, which seems to be about a lot more wonderful conversations for us to relish are Shmuel's words on the last page. In fact the entire last page. This idea of "This means that anyone around you, how high or ugly, might be such a one...So from this you are learning to treat your neighbors with respect and an open mind.  Who knows, he might be Elijah or a Lamed-vavnik."

Except for that last part,  I know a priest who once told me he looks for God in everybody he meets.  I doubt he was  looking for a Lamed-vavnik, but I wonder how many religious beliefs this sort of thinking actually covers? Are there any others?

Is there anything in the fist 152 pages of this book you'd like to talk about or that we missed so far?

[Jonathan]

It's overwhelming. So many thoughtful posts. It's gratifying that y'all are finding so many discussion points in the book. And coming to it with so many viewpoints and backgrounds. How interesting to hear about Chinese tradition and history. Thanks, Hongfan, for joining the discussion. To the West, for centuries, China seemed like a slumbering giant. And then it awakened in the 20th century and has become a superpower. What would you say to the suggestion that Karl Marx is the father of modern China?

I liked this from Bellamarie: "All I can say is look out Deacon Jim, when our Bible study resumes in September. I've got a whole lot of questions for him." Hanging out with this Center crowd will do that to you.

And this from Bubble: " I think we are the most gossipy people on earth."  Perhaps that's arguable, but it certainly was a mistake on Kominsky's part to try to keep the gossip out of the minutes at business meetings. From the book:

'For Center folk "politics" was an idiom for seeking visibility and receiving attention...voting, holding office, running meetings, collecting dues, seconding motions, keeping minutes, and the like were the terms in which the elders could establish, and accredit their worth. But in the meetings he conducted, Kominsky regularly shut off these opportunities in favour of getting the Center's business done.'

And again, this from Hongfan: "It reminded me of a question that was asked, if you have only days to live what would you do?'

That made the rounds in the Jewish community years ago. In three days comes another flood. It will wipe out all life. The story had it thus. The atheist said: 'Let's have one last big party.' The Christian Ecclesiastic said: Let's pray and and get right with God. And the Jew said to his coreligionists: We have three days to figure out how to live under water.'

On to Chapter 4. I must look for the Chaim Potok book. Another good on the Hasidic Masters, Ginny, is, Elie Wiesel's Souls on Fire. One of the links led to  'the Hasidic doctrine that anyone can have latent messianic potential.' But I believe every Jew feels a moral obligation  to make the world a better place for everyone.

[bellamarie]

3.  What do you think the psalm "So teach us to number our days, that we may get us a heart of wisdom" means to you?  What does it mean to them?

I knew I had read this somewhere else and of course it is Psalms 90:12.  I found this article that gives a really good understanding of what it is intended for us, to realize we only have so many days in our lives, so we must use them wisely.

Teach us to realize the brevity of life, so that we may grow in wisdom.

Psalms 90:12

The New Living Translation of Psalm 90:12 reads, “Teach us to realize the brevity of life, so that we may grow in wisdom.” This captures the meaning of the original Hebrew, though not its poetic character. If you were to translate this verse more literally, you might come up with: “So teach us to number our days, that we might bring a heart of wisdom.”

What does it mean to number our days? It’s not the ability to count how many days we have lived or to predict how many days we have left. Numbering our days means, as the NLT indicates, realizing the brevity of life. It means knowing that we only have so many days on this earth, and therefore we want to “seize the day,” living each day to the fullest.

When we recognize that we have only so much time on this earth, that truth will help us think rightly about how to spend our time. This, in turn, will encourage us to grow in wisdom. We will want to judge well how to use the time allotted to us, and this requires godly perspective. It’s not just knowing what we can do, but also what we should do. When we number our days, we will strive to fill each one with value, living every moment for God’s purposes and glory.

QUESTIONS FOR FURTHER REFLECTION: What helps you to number your days? What helps you to live each day to the fullest? Are there regular activities in your life that you would eliminate from your schedule if you were to number your days wisely?

PRAYER: Gracious Lord, thank you for the gift of life. Thank you for the days you have given me. Thank you for the chance to live with purpose each day, to serve you in every facet of my life.

O Lord, I do need you to teach me to number my days. I can so easily live my life as if it will go on forever. In a sense it will, of course. But I don’t want to waste one moment of my life in this age. I want to experience all that life has to offer and to offer all that I am to you.

So teach me, Lord, to number my days, so that I might grow in wisdom, so that I might live each day in the best possible way. To you be all the glory! Amen.

https://www.theologyofwork.org/the-high-calling/daily-reflection/numbering-our-days

Here is another link that has explanations but ultimately saying the same thing. 
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/treasury-of-david/psalms-90-12.html

"Improve Time in time, while the Time doth last.
For all Time is no time, when the Time is past."

--From Richard Pigot's "Life of Man, symbolised by the Months of the Year", 1866.

I come away understanding it's telling the people that their days are numbered, to use them wisely.  Don't think you are here forever, and don't squander the time you have here on earth, use it as God has intended you to with wisdom.  Pray for God to show you that wisdom.   

[so P bubble]

Bubble, if the mother is Jewish, what was  Fiorello LaGuardia? His mother was Jewish and I think her father was a rabbi. Obviously his father was Italian. He was Episcopalian by choice. Does this make him a Gentile or a Jew?

I had to go and look who Fiorello LaGuardia was.  We have a main by pass and highway by this name in Tel Aviv but I never knew.

'Fiorello LaGuardia chose not to wear his Jewish heritage on his sleeve. In fact, he allowed the public to identify him as Italian, not Jewish, even under the most tempting of political circumstances. When issues of Jewish interest came up in New York or national politics, however, the "Little Flower" was an ardent advocate for Jewish rights. As mayor of New York, he was one of Hitler’s most outspoken opponents."
"In 1922, Tammany ran a Jewish candidate against LaGuardia and circulated a flyer calling LaGuardia "a pronounced anti-Semite and Jew-hater." Advised that he should publicly proclaim that his mother was Jewish, LaGuardia rejected the tactic as "self-serving." Instead, he challenged his opponent to debate him in Yiddish – an offer his opponent could not accept. LaGuardia won re-election."

It shows to me that he did not  completely renounced his Jewish roots.
His father was a Catholic. His maternal grandmother Fiorina Luzzatto Coen was a Luzzatto, a member of the prestigious Italian-Jewish family of scholars, kabbalists, and poets and had among her ancestors the famous rabbi Samuel David Luzzatto.
But  Fiorello La Guardia was raised an Episcopalian. So he practiced this religion, with being aware of his heritage apparently.  I don't know what that make him.  For me he is a mensch and that is enough!  I don't like to put labels on people.

Where do they fit in to our picture here with the Ashkenazi and the  Sephardi? Are they another branch?

Hassidim refers to the extreme orthodoxes, they could be Ashkenazi or Sephardi, but mainly Ashkenazi.  The Sephardi seem to me to be less intolerant.  Potok books are all about Ashkenazi, as are the books by Naomi Ragen.

Teach us to realize the brevity of life, so that we may grow in wisdom.

I am having a problem with that one.

[bellamarie]

The definition of the word according to :  http://www.dictionary.com/browse/brevity

brevity

1.  shortness of time or duration; briefness :
the brevity of human life.

2.  the quality of expressing much in few words; terseness:
Ironically, it is long-winded Polonius in Shakespeare'sHamlet who famously says that brevity is the soul of wit.

For me it's quite simple, we don't know how long we have on earth so in the amount of time, little or more we are urged, to use it wisely in the knowledge of the Lord.

I like this commentary I found:  https://www.studylight.org/bible/msg/psalms/90-12.html

"Let us deeply consider our own frailty, and the shortness and uncertainty of life, that we may live for eternity, acquaint ourselves with thee and be at peace; that we may die in thy favor and live and reign with thee eternally."

[bellamarie]

Jonathan, 

it certainly was a mistake on Kominsky's part to try to keep the gossip out of the minutes at business meetings.

'For Center folk "politics" was an idiom for seeking visibility and receiving attention...voting, holding office, running meetings, collecting dues, seconding motions, keeping minutes, and the like were the terms in which the elders could establish, and accredit their worth. But in the meetings he conducted, Kominsky regularly shut off these opportunities in favour of getting the Center's business done.'

You are so right Jonathan!  The Center people have little to no contact with their children and family, so for Kominsky to prevent them from sharing what they do have about their families, was sealing his fate. 

When I read this part of the chapter it immediately reminded me of the movie Doc Hollywood with Michael J. Fox.  I love the scene where the couple comes into his office every time they get a letter from their son from Pakistan.  They are just small town folk who don't know how to read, and don't understand the culture their son is speaking of, so they have Doc Hollywood (Dr. Benjamin Stone) read the letter to them each visit.  If Doc Hollywood would have acted like Kominsky and told this couple that his time is meant for business, and he did not have time to take with personal letters, can you imagine how offended they would have been?  What really touched me in this scene in the movie is that Doc Hollywood is a young plastic surgeon who is on his way to work for an upscale wealthy practice in California, but gets side tracked when he drives into the judge's fence in the small town in South Carolina.  He is stuck their to do community service as a doctor, for the damage he did to the fence.  Over time he begins to adapt to their culture, and realizes he could live in this small town with all these quirky people.  Too bad Kominsky wasn't a bit more adaptable, can you imagine the things he and the Center people could have accomplished had he been willing to interact with the Center people like Doc Hollywood was able to do?

[ginny]

Bubble, what a Solomon like answer.  Bless your heart (as they say here) we're really putting you on the spot here, having to speak for thousands of years of Judaism, thank you for your patience and kindness.

I love this: Instead, he challenged his opponent to debate him in Yiddish – an offer his opponent could not accept. LaGuardia won re-election."


Is that perfect, or is that perfect? That in itself should be in the book.  I love it.

I don't know what that make him.  For me he is a mensch and that is enough!  I don't like to put labels on people.

The PERFECT answer!!  Why can't I think of things like that?  What would we do without you here? I did not know all that about LaGuardia, no wonder they named an airport after him.

Jonathan, if you haven't read Potok, look him up first, he's extremely impressive. I'd start with The Chosen and see if you can stop reading any of his books.

Thank you Bubble for that definition of Hasidim, it makes sense, so it's a branch, an extremely orthodox branch.


On  the subject of Number our Days, I took it to mean the statement you often hear:  what would you do if  you found out you only had a week to live? What would you do, what would be your priorities? Would you act differently?


Bellamarie: Too bad Kominsky wasn't a bit more adaptable, can you imagine the things he and the Center people could have accomplished had he been willing to interact with the Center people.

 Yes and the somewhat puzzling thing to ME is that he already knew the culture, was a part of it from the beginning.

[so P bubble]

On  the subject of Number our Days, I took it to mean the statement you often hear:  what would you do if  you found out you only had a week to live? What would you do, what would be your priorities? Would you act differently?

Personally, I don't think I would change my routine. What difference could that make if I did?  I might just say good bye to those I enjoy and tell them to have a feast or a party in my memory! I am quite happy with how I live and have no wish to rush around trying to compete with  time for doing more.  What is unfinished can remain unfinished, that is all.  No regrets.
I am not trying to gain wisdom,  I only go day by day trying to be a good person and not hurting anyone. If I can be of help, I will.

[bellamarie]

It's interesting to imagine what you would do if you knew for some health reason your days were numbered.  I had a best friend who was my age, we shared everything in common, raised our sons together in our Catholic school from Kinderbible through Jr. high, we had another couple who was included with children the same age.  We were so inseparable sharing the same likes, faith, friendship etc.  She found out her cancer had returned with a vengeance and knew her days were numbered.  My friend Janet and I asked Ruthie what would she like most to do knowing we had limited days left.  She replied, "First I want the three of us to take a road trip to visit the Basilica and National Shrine of Our Lady of Consolation, and then I want you to throw me a big Celebrate Life party."  We did both, we spent the day at the Shrine, then we threw her a huge party at our church hall.  We sang Kareoke, laughed and had the best time ever at her party.  Just weeks later, Janet and I sat at Ruthie's bed on her last day, praying with her, giving her our love, comfort and support as she passed on.  I thought about how brave she was, but basically she reassured me many times she was ready to be with our Lord.  I would like to think I could be as brave and strong as Ruthie if I knew my days were numbered.  I feel I live my life for God, I do my best every day giving Him thanks and praise for all His blessings.  I fall short, but I do think basically I try to be the best Christ like person I can be by following His Commandments, and doing His works.  So I suppose what I might also do, would be to make certain my loved ones were reassured I am going to a place they will join me one day, but until then I would want them to have the happiest life possible, and to know I will forever remain with them in their hearts and in spirit.  God knows my heart, my every fiber of my being, so I would pray He would give me all that I need in my last days to receive Him in His glory. 

[hongfan]

a Jew is not of a faith or belief but of a birth

- I am curious how much this definition is formed by the Jewish community itself and how much is imposed onto them by external forces. For instance, in the holocaust, did they check belief or check birth? And through all the massacres and pogroms, did they spare Jews converted to other believing systems?

[hongfan]

Bellamarie,

I am not in any religion but I think a life fully dedicated to a meaningful cause which is to improve self and benefit others is a fully blessed life.

Very happy for you!

[hongfan]

And the Jew said to his coreligionists: We have three days to figure out how to live under water.'

Jonathan, I guess there is something here "so Jewish", what is it, you think?

[hongfan]

What would you say to the suggestion that Karl Marx is the father of modern China?

Jonathan, I don't know how you define "modern China", the China under Communism or the China under Capitalism (right now) - I guess to westerns China is still a communism country, to Chinese it is barely so any more, or you can say a capitalism country with one party called itself communist party.

And even we talk about China under Communism time, I don't know if Karl Marx himself will like that title, I think both Russia and China took some of the ideologic terms and theories from him (such as class struggles) but then morphed it into something quite different from Marx's theory. Marx's model predicted socialism/communism will only happen when the capitalism is fully developed and the wealth accumulation reaches to the point that it can afford everyone to take based on their need and contribute voluntarily based on their mental/physical capabilities. Both Russia and China skipped capitalism and jumped directly from feudalism to socialism/communism. Is this a confirmation or rejection of Marx's theory?

By the end of 1980's, the Chinese leaders realized that probably Marx was right, China shouldn't have skipped capitalism, so the communist party engineered the "return" to capitalism, isn't that an interesting social experiment? The thinking, I guess, is that let's go back to Marx's theory, let's have the capitalism fully developed, and then we move that to socialism again. The issue was how to systematically privatize state owned properties at that time (in early 90's), no one knew, this was all knew in history, and they wanted to do it relatively quickly but didn't want to repeat what happened in Russia at that time - a complete meltdown in social structure and economy. So the government tried to allocate among stake holders through stock ownership and other various methods, but by and large, the people who were in the rank and file at that time turned a big portion into their own pocket or among their relatives and social networks, that was the beginning of the large scale corruptions deeply penetrated into the party itself and went out of control, no one believes communism any more, it was all about making profit, and get rich overnight. It became so bad, by the time the current president Mr. Xi came into power five years ago, he was afraid the party was rotten to the point that it would collapse by itself, so his administration has focused on striking down corruptions, it is not unusual that all the top leaders in a province were arrested altogether on the same day, many party officials were sent to jails in the past five years. People were happy and have applauded his efforts. But also as a result, many business shut down, for instance, many restaurants closed because party officials no longer dare to go dine and wine with government fund any more, many gift shops closed too. I guess right now everyone is asking what is Mr. Xi's next step now that he has relatively made the party cleaner. China has been on a social experiment and continuing so, I don't know what Marx would think if he is alive today or watching from heaven. He might be smiling now - didn't I tell you so?

[Jonathan]

Hongfan, what a splendid, astute analysis of the modern Chinese political evolution and experiment. A return to Marxism following the Capitalist binge! Of course Marx must be smiling at his lusty, lively offspring, his own thinking having matured since leaving this earth. His ideas served so many as a new gospel.

'We have three days to figure out how to live under water.'

 I guess there is something here "so Jewish", what is it, you think?

I would say it's the vitality, the survival instinct. The first aphorism I committed to memory when I set out to learn Yiddish was: 'Zog nit keyn mol az du geyst dem letsn veg'. Never say it's the end of the road.

Bellamarie, what a truly moving post. Dying is such a mystery. I could tell you of the phone call I took from the Angel of Death from the  bedside of my dying wife. Not a word was said, but I got the message. By the time I got there she was gone. And yet I am certain she grasped the few words I whispered into her ear. For several days she had been absolutely incapable of speech or physical effort. Except for tiny efforts which made it plain that there was an unseen person in the room who was a comfort for her.

[hongfan]

SMALL is not the word.  THAT type of thing keeps reinforcing to me that I am getting...no...not getting, AM  old. And the words of Myerhoff there about how they had reached a point where accomplishment would be denied them in their old age scares me to death. I keep telling myself she wrote in the '70's, and she is dead wrong about elders not being able to learn. They may not learn like a child (the newest research says drink caffeine if you want your brain to react like a child's does, shuts off something or enhances something or whatever, I'm drinking it.)  _ But nobody wants a Walter Winchell over-voice telling THEM that the door has closed on any further accomplishment.

Max accomplished a lot  at 98 for me with his story.

Ginny - I don't know how Myerhoff developed these points, to me, in many places she has made assertions without sufficient data points or clear logic, here is one example. And to be honest, I found myself starting to skip more and more of her analysis now, often times I don't know what she is talking about anyway, I just want to enjoy the stories and think by myself.

I think everyone has its own way to define aging, by physical aspects, or by mental aspects. To me, as long as I am still curious about the world, still wonder about the world, I am as fresh as a child.

I don't know the theory about caffeine, I don't drink coffee, but I do see meditation helps people. I have been practicing meditation for 15 years, it helps my brain to stay more agile and my body more flexible. One of my mentors/friends tried meditation with his wife since last year and he happily reported that it helped calm him down and make him happier and more productive. He showed me, it was a smartphone apps (I forgot and just sent an email to ask), so he can follow the video/audio and do it at home any time he wants.

Related to meditation is Tai Chi, you can call it meditation in motion, I wish I can take a Tai Chi class if I have more time. My friends who learned and practiced Tai Chi all reported very positive improvement to their health.

And for thousands of years, Chinese, particularly elders, also use ginseng for improving overall health, I regularly bought American ginseng for my parents and relatives in China (and as I am writing now, I have packed all the ginseng in my suitcase and ready to jump into air tomorrow morning to Shanghai!) Chinese medicine particular stress ginseng's helpfulness to heart health. There is a well-known ginseng farm in Wisconsin that I usually buy from: https://www.hsuginseng.com/us/c_US100?PageName=Ginseng#. (but if any of you want to know how it works, do let me know, because it can be confusing at the beginning)

Another day, I had a lunch with a gentleman reaching 80, he is still working full time (he is an scientist), and he told me that he has bought five Amazon's Echo and put them in every room he stays, Echo can read audio books from audible. com (a part of Amazon now), he is like me, doesn't have a lot of time to sit down to read and he probably doesn't want to exhaust his eyes either, so wherever he goes, he asks echo to read aloud to him. He also uses Echo to send messages to his grandsons, and ask Echo to read out messages from them, etc. Apparently, that takes off some burden from him. I don't use Echo, but download lectures or audio books to my iPhone and play them whenever I can - when cooking, brushing teeth, dressing, driving, and you would amaze how much time we have spent on these and how fast you can finish a book. I am sure there are apps that can change text to audio, and read out to you. Oh, yes, there is one apps I found very helpful on Google Glass, you can pre-set for language translation, and when you focus the Google Glass on one menu say in Chinese, it will translate to English, or in Italian, translate to English, or Greek, translate to English, when I tried it 1-2 years ago, it was still a bit slow, needs a few seconds, but I am sure those apps are becoming smarter and smarter, Google Glass is stopped by Google now (at least for consumer market), but I am sure those apps are available somewhere in the apps store. I guess could be useful for frequent travelers?

Anyway, I guess I need to stop and get back to my packing for the trip. Somehow your words triggered my thoughts and thought just wanted to drop a few lines

[bellamarie]

Oh Jonathan I have no doubt she heard your whispered words.  I know exactly what you speak of about an unseen person in the room your wife was receiving comfort from.  Death is indeed a mystery, but from the books I have read where others have passed on according to medicine, yet with no clear explanation they return and share their experience, I have the utmost faith that God is using others just as he used His only begotten Son, the apostles and saints to reassure us there is a Heaven with Him and our loved ones, to be reunited with them. 

Hongfan,  Echo....well now you have taught me something new, and peaked my curiosity.  Safe travels! 

[bellamarie]

Hongfan, 

I don't know the theory about caffeine, I don't drink coffee

My theory on caffeine is this..........  I MUST have at least one cup, as soon as I wake up!

I just finished chapter five "We fight to keep warm" and oh my was that a barrel of laughs.  All I can say, as an Italian/American, the Jews aint got nothin on us.  The entire psychotherapy session could have been a page right out of my large Italian family's page book.  There's a reason we cloned the idiom, "fuhgeddaboudit,’  it's because Italians hold the longest grudges in history!!  Sadie and Anna could be my sisters, or aunts.  And it is worthy to note:

pg.  161  (Meyerhoff asks Shmuel)  "Doesn't this involve the men?"  "No, mostly these things are among the women, concerning jealousy__about a man or money or food.  Always somebody is jealous, someone else get too much, someone else gets too little.  Whose fault is it?" 

Don't get me wrong, the men can stir the pot, then sit back and watch the fireworks, but mostly it is the women always feuding about something.  I watch The Housewives of New Jersey and oh boy they are perfect examples of this whole chapter.  One season they actually brought in a psychotherapist to try to talk to the women feuding, just like Dr.  Cohen, her head was spinning.   

[ginny]

 Yes, Chapter 4 is something else!  I really don't even know how to start a discussion of it tomorrow, but I'll put a few directions in the next post and the heading and then you all can talk about anything you like, including the questions and anything that struck YOU!

Safe trip, Hongfan!

Every chapter I think can't get any better, and they always do.

 Shmuel says the perfect explanation of the joke about
'We have three days to figure out how to live under water.' when he says on page 193, "The Jew has a joyful life regardless of the oppression he walks through, because he is a good swimmer. He always comes back to the surface." hahahaa

And while I was temped in Chapter 3 to skim over Myerhoff's analysis, I have to say I think she makes some stunning points in this one and I personally think she's hit the nail on the head.  I have to commend her arrangement of these chapters. I am enjoying the book no end.

Beautiful posts here, all of them. There's nothing I can say to address any of them, they are all meangful and wonderful, thank you all. (With the possible exception of the Housewives of New Jersey part) hahaha I lived in New Jersey and never saw anything like any of them. I think most of that is for show.

 However, I can't talk at all,  because I watch Million  Dollar Listing, New York City, another Bravo  Reality Show,  and have since it came on, and love it, even without Luis who was  marvelous, but it's not "scripted," or that's the category it won an Emmy in this past awards.

I did watch the Housewives of New York, however, when it was on, so I can't cast stones, can I? hahahaha I only lasted one year,  tho.

So from Bravo "Reality" to the real thing tomorrow we begin Chapter 4, which, I think, in many ways, tackles the most important things in the book so far.

One of them is the way elders are treated. This chapter explains the defensiveness and the contention in a beautiful way.

There are so  many points I can't think where to start, but I'll put some starters in the next post as I have plumbers here at 8:30 in the morning.


Can't wait to hear what you think on THIS one!

[ginny]

1. Chapter 4, "We Fight to Keep Warm," is full of ideas.  Was there one idea that stood out for you over the others? If so what was it?

2. This is the chapter Jonathan referred to earlier when Myerhoff expresses irritation and impatience with the Center residents and their quarreling. Later she wonders why she was so irritated. What turned her around? What was the message of the apple skin? Do you find yourself irritated with the Center folks at the end of this chapter or more sympathetic?

3. The Evil Eye and Superstition are very well explained in this chapter. Were you surprised? Are YOU superstitious in any way? Or are you more like Basha, "Myself, I don't believe in these things, but it doesn't hurt to be careful." (page 154). Are there any superstitions in 2017 that people now  believe? What about Friday the 13th? Black cats? Walking under ladders. "Bread and Butter?" How many can you think of? But witchcraft? Was that a surprise?

4. Why is Anna so mysteriously silent always? What does that accomplish?

5. "A frontal attack would tail, but what that strategy might be, no one could foresee." What does that mean?  Page 158.

6. Why did Abe invite Dr. Cohen to try 4 sessions of group counseling? What was the result? Did he help the situation or make it worse? Is there anything he could have done to change the situation?

7. What was the funniest remark made out of at least 100 in this chapter? Which one made you laugh the most? Who made it?

8. Why does Myerhoff say the Jews give  so many nicknames: to people, towns, animals, families? 169.  What do nicknames normally show?

9. Myerhoff sees Anger as a positive thing in the lives of these Center people.   Many people would argue that  Anger is self defeating, and even harmful. What do you think? Do you agree with her about the role anger plays in establishing power  to the Center folks?  These things are discussed on 184, 185 and 187.

10. In this chapter Myerhoff talks about the personal Power we've been talking about and she also talks about the "Martha" effect I mentioned earlier in an old vaudeville joke.   On the latter she says, "For people in such straits as they, nothing is impersonal. Their condition swells until it fills the world. Solipsism is a certain mark of those too long abused. A rainy day  is an  unkind attack, a broken zipper a manifestation of the hostility of the universe. In many ways, these  small  challenges an be turned into triumph. Such misfortunes, minute in other people's lives, were enormous in theirs. Their affairs were not miniature to them, through in the larger arenas of the outside world, they would appear so. Our activities swell to fill the frames in which they occur." (189)

What do you think of this analysis? Is it only to those who have suffered oppression or can it be to anybody who is "down" about one thing or another? Do you think her last sentence is correct?

11.  What's the best vignette you took from this entire chapter?


I'll put these in the heading also. I have a new appreciation for the photo on the front of the book. Who do you think that IS?

[Jonathan]

Have a safe and pleasant trip, Hongfan. And please come back with more such engaging posts.

Bellamarie, congratulations. How perspicacious of you to see 'a barrel of laughs' in this chapter. 'We fight to keep warm.' What a case these people make for the therepeutic value of anger! And some people are too blind to see it. Who wouldn't be perplexed by the antics of these seniors? One almost feels sorry  for those trying to be helpful. People like Kominsky and Doctor Cohen, and Shmuel. And the trained anthropologist ruefully admits: 'How could I have found this place, these selfish, petulent, aggressive people interesting or charming?...No wonder these people's children stayed away from them.'

Ginny, thanks and congratulations on coming up with so many good questions. What an unusual book. Like you say, it keeps getting better. I've found two Chaim Potok books in the house and am wondering why I haven't read them. The Chosen, and My Name Is Asher Lev.

Who was the poet who said: 'Come, grow old along with me,
the best is yet to come.' Keep your sense of humor and stay away from The Center.

[BarbStAubrey]

The little bit about the power of the word reminded me of... "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God." Seems like John is showing their early Jewish roots.

[BarbStAubrey]

All the evil eye, curses, bad luck, supernatural was typical of many before WWII - I wonder why the difference - certainly science had a huge affect - cannot drop an atom bomb and still believe luck controls the universe.

Bellamarie remembers it from her heritage and I sure remember all the bits from both grandmothers - knocking on wood and throwing salt over the shoulder and reading things in the shape of soup leavings or the way the wind blew and when it was safe to eat this or that and when you could remove your undershirt, a day early and you had bad luck for seven years and God help you if you broke a mirror, your life was about over... 

[BarbStAubrey]

Thought about anger - you have to feel pretty safe to unleash anger - you do not usually show anger to strangers if for no other reason than not knowing how safe you would be if someone retaliated and so, that says to me that they each felt safe among the people in the Center regardless, how they judged each other since, they felts safe enough to show their anger.

Years ago, remember learning that anger was just hurt disguised in an acceptable expression. Hurt spells victim-hood with depression around the corner where as, anger harnesses and expresses power. 

[hongfan]

Hello from Shanghai! Now we are spreading over 3 continents and 4 countries!

Just to finish my post on the smartphone apps on meditation, I asked my friend, he said it is called "10% happier". My friend is in his 70's and felt the meditation has helped him.

[bellamarie]

Hongfan in Shanghai wow how exciting!  You mentioned Echo the other day, I was listening to Fox & Friends this morning and they were saying Amazon's highest selling product yesterday was Echo!  I guess I missed the info that all shipping was free yesterday through Amazon.

1. Chapter 4, "We Fight to Keep Warm," is full of ideas.  Was there one idea that stood out for you over the others? If so what was it?

Chapter five "We fight to keep warm" gives a real insight as to how much these folks really need each other, and the Center.  Sadie was upset and ready to leave with all her friends to follow, which would have brought an end to the Center, because they do so much work for the Center.  During the psychotherapy session if they would have named Anna, as the instigator of the feud, it would have been devastating.  It seems it was okay to continuously say "a certain person," but naming the person was unthinkable, even though everyone there knew exactly who they were speaking of. 

pg. 178 "No!  Naming names doesn't do anybody any good.  Now you are behaving as bad as she is.  Worse even.  If you name her, I am going to leave."  Sonya was adamant and Sadie was silent.  "This goes too far, No names, Sadie."  "Enough talk about leaving here!" shouted Moshe.  "This is a time when the Center needs everybody.  We harm each other this way.  We do the work for our enemies.  We have our differences here, but we all want the Center to survive.  These are very bad times for us.  We need all our members or we close down.  And we don't think only of the Center.  We got to think of Israel.  We raise a lot of money for Israel here.  Sadie is right, she worked hard and we all work hard.  We got to put our fights aside.  We got in common that we are Jews and that we support Israel.  That's enough."  "Moshe is right," said Basha.  "We are fighting for our life, and other people's lives, not just our own.  Now Sadie, if you really love Israel as much as you say, you won't hurt it that way."

What really stuck out for me in this chapter was, as much as these folks bicker, disagree, and insult each other, when push comes to shove, they realize the importance of staying together for their sake and Israel's.

[bellamarie]

Ginny,

I did watch the Housewives of New York, however, when it was on, so I can't cast stones, can I? hahahaha I only lasted one year,  tho.

I am a reality show junkie, I hate to admit the shows are my secret guilty pleasure.  I watch Housewives of New York, New Jersey, OC, and Beverly Hills.  Bravo T.V. Is always on my DVR.  Yep, even the Kardashians..... I kind of enjoy watching all the drama and sit back and laugh at how silly they all act.  This is why I found Chapter 5 so hilarious.  Talk about "evil eye" do you suppose the Center people would find my humor evil?  Anyone who survived growing up in my large Italian family, would have to have a sense of humor, to get them through the feuds and shouting matches.  We don't even have to be upset, and others around think our "loud" voices indicate we are angry.  😂😂😜🤣😀😳🙃

[hongfan]

The little bit about the power of the word reminded me of... "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God."

I guess the "Word" is translated from the greek "λογοσ", this greek word has many meanings, including logic, reason, story, etc.

Bubble, I am curious in Hebrew version, is the Hebrew word equivalent meaning "word" dominantly or has other meanings too?

I also read a few weeks back that Jesus Christ and his disciples mostly used and quoted the Greek version of the Torah called "Septuagint" (from Latin word Septuaginta meaning 70, it was said to be a translation by 70 Jewish scholars in Alexandria during 3 - 2 century BC). The reason is, the author said, that by that time not many people could read Hebrew any more. However, other places I read said Hebrew died out around the 1 - 2 century CE. So I am little confused now with the time line when Hebrew was stopped in use.

But Jesus Christ used Greek version of Torah, isn't that interesting? I gave a quiz to my two kids the other day, with Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, Latin as the multiple choices, and OF COURSE they thought it an easy question, it has to be either Hebrew or Aramaic, right? hahaha - we often assumed so much, isn't this interesting to know?

[BarbStAubrey]

Interesting because I thought Aramaic or Hebrew as well... sounds like you trip went well Hongfan... do you change planes in Japan or in another location?

[BarbStAubrey]

Recently read a book by Albert Ells - an American psychologist who in 1955 developed rational emotive behavior therapy. He held MA and PhD degrees in clinical psychology from Columbia University and the American Board of Professional Psychology.

This is a quote from the book that reminded me of the folks in the Center - I think they choose not to change for several reasons - not only the difficulty of changing - their age - and the reminder of their upbringing which at this point in their lives is security  - but to change puts them as odd man out since the entire group is not willing to change their views - we learned that in the last chapter when they ousted Kominsky who was injecting a new viewpoint -

"As Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius, ancient stoic philosophers, pointed out, we humans mainly feel the way we think. Not completely, but mainly.

We consciously and unconsciously choose to think, to feel, and to act in certain self-helping and self-harming ways. Not totally, not all together! For we have great help, if you want to call it that, from both our heredity and our environment.

We are hardly born with specific thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. Nor does our environment directly make us act or feel. But, our genes and our social upbringing give us strong tendencies to do (and enjoy) what we do. Although we usually go along with (or indulge in) these tendencies, we do not exactly have to. We definitely do not.

We do not have unlimited choice or free will. We cannot, no matter how hard we try, flap our hands, and fly. We cannot easily stop our various addictions to such substances as cigarettes, food, and alcohol, or to habits such as procrastination. We have a time of it changing any of our fixed habits. Alas, we do!

But, we can choose to change ourselves remarkably. We are able to alter our strongest thoughts, feelings, and actions, because unlike dogs, monkeys, and roaches, we are human. As human beings, we are born with (and can escalate) a trait that other creatures rarely possess: the ability to think about our thinking. We are not only natural philosophers; we can philosophize about our philosophy, reason about our reasoning, which gives us some degree of self-determination or free will. "

I liked the concept that Ells wrote that we are all natural philosophers and we can reason about our reasoning - found that information to be empowering while it appears the folks at the Center are empowered by using their age old views entailing curses and such.

[Jonathan]

I've changed my mind. The evil eye, curses, bad luck, superstitions, made sick and hospitalized by someone's evil thought.

Things have come to a sorry pass at the Center. I seem to sense some voodoo in the air. Using anger to alleviate pain, when love would serve as well.

Kominsky's Rabbi had it right. Bring back the kosher kitchen. Observe our ancient rites and beliefs. Exit God. Enter The Devil. Why, oh why, weren't the girls allowed to study Torah, like the boys.

[BarbStAubrey]

Jonathan my guess is studying the Torah would not have changed the girls - as long as girls were unequal in status and subject to their husband, father and for some their eldest son, in order to assert themselves they had to use another system. Just as, there was communication between blacks before their emancipation, by using phrases in church hymns to communicate, there are ways that girls not only communicated but exercised power differently than boys or differently then the public written word since, men wrote and their stuff was the acceptable and accepted truth.   

[bellamarie]

Ginny,  7. What was the funniest remark made out of at least 100 in this chapter? Which one made you laugh the most? Who made it?

I can't pick one in particular, but I can tell you this entire conversation had me laughing out loud:

pg.  166  "When we call people names like this__shmegegge, meshuggeneh__ this doesn't get us anywhere.  Now there is something I'd like to explain to you, something that takes many years for us to learn, that is, if I call you a name and your're hurt, well, you don't really have to be.  You can say, "Ok, that's the way he feels.  He's angry.  He wants to call me a name, but I don't have to respond to it."  This is a very difficult concept to learn.  It's one of the things we all have to try to grasp."  Dr. Cohen delivered his comments with great earnestness.  "You mean to say this is also difficult for you?"  asked Hannah  "Why, yes, certainly," he answered with a reassuring smile.  "You didn't learn this with all  your education, but you expect we should?"  Hannah rebutted.  "Well, that why I say it's very hard.  I'm only human, too.  Just like you, I have trouble when I am hurt and I know it is something I shouldn't let bother me.  Then I have to try to examine myself.  Why does it get to me that way?  When I know this, then it's up to me how I respond.  Does anyone here understand what I am trying to say?"  he asked.  "how should we know if we understand?  Isn't it your job to tell us?"  Sonya was obviously uneasy with his familiar approach.  "This is no way to talk to the doctor.  A bunch of am haaretz all of you.  Here is a learned man, a specialist.  He comes to instruct us and you insult him."  Jake jumped to the doctor's defense.    "Who asked him for instructions?  If I need a doctor.  I go to my son, the psychiatrist,"  replied Faegl.

pg.  175  "So why are we wasting our time?  No doctor can help us.  The doctor tells us we carry on like this because we are old.  Is this something he could cure?"  asked Olga.  "I didn't come here to be cure.  Who is sick?  If I am sick I go to my son, the psychiatrist,"  said Faegl."

It's like Shmuel said,  pg.  158 "When they finished with this doctor he wouldn't know what happened to him.  Maybe he will learn something.  Anyhow, you could be sure he wouldn't do them any harm, and this you couldn't say for all doctors."  Shmuel  permitted himself a rare laugh, his thin shoulders bouncing up to the bottom of his enormous ears.


All I can say is the word my Italian Grandmother used often when she was fed up,  "Madone!"

[Jonathan]

Barbara: 'It appears the folks at the Center are empowered by using their age old views entailing curses and such.' ...'my guess is studying the Torah would not have changed the girls.'

You make a good point, Barb. And women's Lib is changing the world. But all along, a Yiddishe Mama has always exercised tremendous influece - a formidable kind of power. Would a little Torah have diminished the power of Jake's neighbor?

'A woman there was on our street who could curse like Heifetz plays the violin. The things she could fix up for her enemies! May  your teeth get mad and eat your head off. May you inherit a hotel with one hundred rooms and be found dead in every one. May you have ten sons and all your DIL's hate you. May all your teeth fall out but one, and that one has a cavity. May your chickens lay eggs in your neighbor's house. May gypsies camp on your stomach and their bears do the Kazotskhi in your liver.' p156

On a different note:'It is said that when pious Jews left the old country, they would address God thusly: "And now, good-bye, O Lord; I am going to America.' The New Joys of Yiddish, p109

I don't know if it was the mop, or the Klezmer music blaring in the background, but I was spared an hour of listening to how my life was foreshadowed in the Bible, by a well-meaning neighbor this morning. I was working on the kitchen floor, listening to some freylekhe Yiddishe tapes, when the doorbell rang. You can't imagine the magic of hearing 'tralalala' sung in Yiddish. The neighbor must have thought: with music like that, who needs a new direction. And wished me a good day.

Surely there are far fewer curses in the air, since girls have been given the advantage of an education.

[ginny]

 Well this is just wonderful, you've all made SUCH good points. Between the books 1001 points and then your own ideas, it's a rich buffet, it really is. I love to go off and think about your posts and the book points. I am so glad we're reading and discussing this. I feel as if I've had a course in gerontology which apparently I could have used way back when, so much explained here IF we agree with her reasoning.


Jonathan, what a quote. Why do you think they said good bye O Lord I'm going to America?   I have a friend who told me when she came by ship to NYC for the first time (she was a young girl, I think she was 10 and alone) she wanted to turn around and go back. She had understood the streets were paved with gold and the wharves, the general area where the ships landed, the NYC ports back then (she's elderly)  (I guess from Ellis Island but I am not sure) was so far from "streets of gold" she wanted to go back. But she's still here, and loving it.

Curses. The Romans did curse tablets all the time. The sacred fountains and rivers are full of them. They are very creative, too.  Here's a wonderful site on them, I've put a  link to the main page, but you can go deeper and they will actually   show the curse tablet itself and then the translation:  http://curses.csad.ox.ac.uk/

 " Cenacus complains to the god Mercury about Vitalinus and Natalinus his son concerning the draught animal which has been stolen from him, and asks the god Mercury that they may have neither health before/unless they return at once to me the draught animal which they have stolen, and to the god the devotion which he has demanded from them himself. "

On this site there's an explanation of this, called Cursing for Beginners. I think they are most creative to read. May the person who stole my chicken break out in wens, etc.    Anybody could do one, it did not require a witch.

          Bellamarie, I totally agree with your selection of humor. i laughed out loud, too at that passage, loved the " If I am sick I go to my son, the psychiatrist,"  said Faegl."  There you are, the entire shtick in a nutshell. My son the psychiatrist. My son the doctor. My son the lawyer.

But I laughed out loud at this one, too: after Sonya tells how her mother put a spot of ashes on her face "So you shouldn't get no evil eye..." Moshe says, "maybe this is a reason I should be grateful for all the dark spots I get on my face from old age." hahhahahaaaaaaaaaaaaa  What a hoot. LOVE it.

I knew they were good for something!

And golly the Evil Eye is certainly not confined to old Jewish custom, it's alive and well in Sicily and parts of Italy.  And I wonder where else in 2017.

 What an interesting article on  Ells's philosophy, Barbara. I'm trying to recall where I have heard of him before and can't.  This is interesting: "We are hardly born with specific thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. Nor does our environment directly make us act or feel. But, our genes and our social upbringing give us strong tendencies to do (and enjoy) what we do. Although we usually go along with (or indulge in) these tendencies, we do not exactly have to. We definitely do not. "

I think anger like a lot of other things, is a learned response. So many things, how to act, how to treat people, how to react, are learned as a child.

But ANGER as Jonathan says to solve problems, surely is destructive, isn't it?  It elevates the BP, causes rapid flushes of adrenaline, and some people can't let it go and live with it as if it's another person, addressing everything TO it. Type A people are said to be angry.

But then I just read that cursing is actually good for you. Did you all see that?  Maybe anger if expressed gets out the repressed what not. I can't believe that is true. 


But the Center people clearly find it empowering, as  Barbara said, " anger harnesses and expresses power. "  And this is another great point, Barbara: Thought about anger - you have to feel pretty safe to unleash anger - you do not usually show anger to strangers if for no other reason than not knowing how safe you would be if someone retaliated and so, that says to me that they each felt safe among the people in the Center regardless, how they judged each other since, they felts safe enough to show their anger .

But on the other hand, the person who boils over and carries on shows a lack of self control, don't  you think? He who doesn't lose his cool...what's the expression about the one who doesn't fall victim to his anger, he's in control? I can't remember it.



 And there is hongfan!!  All the way from Shanghai, we are truly international now! What an interesting fact about the translation of the Torah used by Christ, I did not  know that.

A wonderful book on the history of the Bible is by  Christopher de Hamel (the famous curator) called  The Book: A History of the Bible. It's absolutely spectacular. What Jerome did takes one's breath away.

That's a great point about naming names, Bellamarie! That stood out for me, too. Oh you don't watch the KarTrashians, do you really?


Jonathan,  The Chosen and My Name is Asher Lev were the BEST books when i read them as a youth, like The Fires of Spring (Michener: autobiographical) and Revolutionary  Road, and A  Tree Grows in Brooklyn and Marjorie Morningstar and Arrowsmith but I wonder if they have stood the test of time. Since you've got them, if you get a chance to read them, let  us know?

 I find myself, now old, wanting to reread Babbitt again.  Lewis is dated, his speech is dated but I read it a few  years ago, (I had always hated it) and found to my shock that it was REALLY good and there were, I think two sequels. Small town America. I probably need to read Our Town again, too, hated it with a passion. I wonder why  now.

[ginny]

My book in this chapter is so underlined I think perhaps nothing is left NOT underlined, starred, decorated with exclamation points, etc.

This is what stood out the most to me:  "For people in such straits as they, nothing is impersonal. Their condition swells until it fills the world. Solipsism is a certain mark of those too long abused. A rainy day  is an  unkind attack, a broken zipper a manifestation of the hostility of the universe. In many ways, these  small  challenges an be turned into triumph. Such misfortunes, minute in other people's lives, were enormous in theirs. Their affairs were not miniature to them, through in the larger arenas of the outside world, they would appear so. Our activities swell to fill the frames in which they occur." (189)

This explains SO much.  Do you remember the old SenhiorNet? Holy smoke when they wanted to go to this type of bulletin board, remember that? People absolutely got apoplectic at the very thought, and every word was seen as a tremendous insult.... I have never seen anything like it before or since. THAT was a microcosm of Center people online. But now I see why, since I've read this book.

And I think this is the key: "Our activities swell to fill the frames in which they occur."

What does that mean, exactly, to  you? What is she saying? Is she saying that the smaller our lives are, the more circumscribed by age or ability or intellect, the less we get out, the less we have, the less we can do,  that we zealously guard what we CAN do and do have?

What is she saying? I'd really like to know what you think, and is she right? If that is so, what would be the cure for this? Is THIS what happens naturally?

[ginny]

"There's nobody in this room who didn't lose family in the Holocaust. Why are we left? So we shouldn't forget our Jewish way of life. Otherwise we finish off Hitlers work for him.  Sometimes we forget this asks of us sacrifices, all kinds, money and other things. This doesn't have anything to do with one person. It's for our parents.  It's for our children. it's for history. So for that reason I think everyone in this room who loves Israel should buy a ticket for the luncheon, even if they don't go."


Basha's words, and all this fund raising work they are doing for Israel for some reason reminded me of Bernie Madoff. Remember how Shmuel said you couldn't make money over somebody else's poverty?  When I read this I thought of Hadassah. Bernie Madoff was Jewish and " Hadassah connects Jewish women and empowers them to effect change through advocacy, advancing health and well-being, and support of Israel. Our members, from every congressional district in the nation, are activists, fundraisers and visionaries. They don’t just talk. Hadassah women DO.

HADASSAH, THE WOMEN'S ZIONIST ORGANIZATION OF AMERICA, INC"

 They invested 40 million dollars with him and  thought it had grown to 90 million.  It was part of a huge  Ponzi scheme to the tune of  "$64.8 billion, based on the amounts in the accounts of Madoff's 4,800 clients as of November 30, 2008. "

All that work by all those people. It's hard to believe how many were left truly impoverished of their life savings.  It's really hard to even fathom the destruction that ensued. And he seems remarkably unrepentant, unless it's a front. 

Here's where Myerhoff talks about personal Power:

(pages 181 and 182)


"The Center people approached the therapy session as another opportunity to demonstrate their moral qualities. They were not prepared to expose themselves beyond a certain point. The vulnerability and defenselessness implicit in too great a revelation were likely to give someone else privileged information about themselves, thus putting them in another person's power. People might use this information to  elevate their own standing, appearing to be knowledgeable about member's affairs, and receiving attention at the same time. For the old people, the therapy session was an occasion that allowed them to proclaim a self selected, highly controlled image,  for presentation to the outsider,  peers, and themselves."

I think this is  VERY perspicacious of her. Not long ago an article appeared in a national publication, I wish I could remember which one, called Why We Lie and showing a photo of an online site. I think it was intended to talk about "Alternative Facts," but as part of the focus of the article was the image  and persona we construct online about ourselves, which may,  in fact, be a long way from the truth.  But why? Why would somebody do that? Is it the anonymity of the internet?  Dating matchmaking internet services are full of this type of thing, the description and then the reality.

What about politicians? Are they who we think they are? Do we actually know who ANY of them really are?

And you'd be surprised how often it happens online. We've been in this since 1996, you'd be shocked at who was not who they said they were.  WHY would somebody do that? Make themselves up, so to speak?  To look good? Is it for the reasons Myerhoff shows above? Not to give others power? Or is it to give themselves power? Is it a chance at redemption, to BE the person one always hoped to be? To finally get some respect?

Why does a person put on a "face? in any situation? Are you sure all the people you are talking to in any online situation are who they say they are? Do we ever really know anybody, online or off?

 Is it because  it's unlikely anybody will ever find out the truth?  I think it's fascinating. I think it's fascinating in the case of the Center people who have to live with each other day after day and think they know everything there is to know about each other,  and it's fascinating on the internet,  too, where a lot of people are nothing like they say they are, in real life.

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