Number Our Days

[ginny]

The Book Club Online is the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

They say that growing old is not for sissies. Are they right? When Anthropologist Dr. Barbara Myerhoff received a grant to study aging she decided to do it on subjects in the USA, and let them speak for themselves.

The result is an "often funny, deeply moving narrative of human dignity and courage."

 "One of those rare books that leave the reader somehow changed."-- Bel Kaufman.

Join us! 

Questions to Ponder on  Chapter 4

Chapter 4: "We Fight to Keep Warm."


1. Chapter 4, "We Fight to Keep Warm," is full of ideas.  Was there one idea that stood out for you over the others? If so what was it?

2. This is the chapter Jonathan referred to earlier when Myerhoff expresses irritation and impatience with the Center residents and their quarreling. Later she wonders why she was so irritated. What turned her around? What was the message of the apple skin? Do you find yourself irritated with the Center folks at the end of this chapter or more sympathetic?

3. The Evil Eye and Superstition are very well explained in this chapter. Were you surprised? Are YOU superstitious in any way? Or are you more like Basha, "Myself, I don't believe in these things, but it doesn't hurt to be careful." (page 154). Are there any superstitions in 2017 that people now  believe? What about Friday the 13th? Black cats? Walking under ladders. "Bread and Butter?" How many can you think of? But witchcraft? Was that a surprise?

4. Why is Anna so mysteriously silent always? What does that accomplish?

5. "A frontal attack would tail, but what that strategy might be, no one could foresee." What does that mean?  Page 158.

6. Why did Abe invite Dr. Cohen to try 4 sessions of group counseling? What was the result? Did he help the situation or make it worse? Is there anything he could have done to change the situation?

7. What was the funniest remark made out of at least 100 in this chapter? Which one made you laugh the most? Who made it?

8. Why does Myerhoff say the Jews give  so many nicknames: to people, towns, animals, families? 169.  What do nicknames normally show?

9. Myerhoff sees Anger as a positive thing in the lives of these Center people.   Many people would argue that  Anger is self defeating, and even harmful. What do you think? Do you agree with her about the role anger plays in establishing power  to the Center folks?  These things are discussed on 184, 185 and 187.

10. In this chapter Myerhoff talks about the personal Power we've been talking about and she also talks about the "Martha" effect I mentioned earlier in an old vaudeville joke.   On the latter she says, "For people in such straits as they, nothing is impersonal. Their condition swells until it fills the world. Solipsism is a certain mark of those too long abused. A rainy day  is an  unkind attack, a broken zipper a manifestation of the hostility of the universe. In many ways, these  small  challenges an be turned into triumph. Such misfortunes, minute in other people's lives, were enormous in theirs. Their affairs were not miniature to them, through in the larger arenas of the outside world, they would appear so. Our activities swell to fill the frames in which they occur." (189)

What do you think of this analysis? Is it only to those who have suffered oppression or can it be to anybody who is "down" about one thing or another? Do you think her last sentence is correct?

11.  What's the best vignette you took from this entire chapter?


 I have a new appreciation for the photo on the front of the book. Who do you think that IS?





What do YOU think?


 

[ginny]

 This is a big one!


(page 184)..."Yet Center folks experienced their connections with each other most convincingly and easily by the expression of anger and conflict.  Anger is a powerful indication of engagement between people ".... (this is what Barbara said above), the very opposite of indifference." It may be regarded as the most dramatic proof of responsiveness and caring. It is also a mode of relationship by people to allow them to deny that they are helpless victims of circumstances.  By demonstrating opposition, per se, one is asserting that he or she has some degree of assertiveness, autonomy, and  power over oneself and possibly others.  It is a basic form of remaining attached."

I've got so many exclamation marks on this page the book looks like hieroglyphics.

This explains everything, the kvetching, the quarreling, the opposition, but do YOU buy it?

What do YOU think about this assessment?!!?? Do you agree? Or disagree?

[ginny]

 Bubble, has your book come yet?

[so P bubble]

Yes my book finally reached me this week.  I am in the middle of reading.
Sorry, I'm not very active this week: family emergency to deal with. Hopefully after Shabbat  I'll have some answers.  Bear with me.

I will just add that superstition is very present here.  BTW, what about "keep your fingers crossed"?

[ginny]

Oh good, I was worried about  you. You've finally got your book! Take your time, sorry for the emergency.

I got up thinking if arguing is power and the way to assess power, why is Anna silent? Is it BECAUSE she is silent she is accused of ...is it being a witch? She can't win, can she?  Or perhaps she doesn't feel safe. Isn't she interesting? But they all say she's mean, really mean.   And we've all known, unfortunately, mean people. Do they tend to be chatty? Or is that pushing it a tad far?

I also got up thinking on this again:  Their affairs were not miniature to them, through in the larger arenas of the outside world, they would appear so. Our activities swell to fill the frames in which they occur."  I'm really hung up on it. Does this mean that we  need, all of us, in every way to expand our frames?  (Hopefully she does not mean physical frames).   Do we need to add to our must do list, Increase the Frame?

[bellamarie]

Ginny, 

My book in this chapter is so underlined I think perhaps nothing is left NOT underlined, starred, decorated with exclamation points, etc.

Mine looks the same way.  It's surely not a book I could lend to someone.  But that's okay, because it was used when I bought it.

They were not prepared to expose themselves beyond a certain point. The vulnerability and defenselessness implicit in too great a revelation were likely to give someone else privileged information about themselves, thus putting them in another person's power. People might use this information to  elevate their own standing, appearing to be knowledgeable about member's affairs, and receiving attention at the same time.

When I read this I immediately could associate with what they are feeling.  I have always been an open book with my family and friends, so much so that things I have confided to certain people, they have used that information at a later time to either hurt me with it, or use it to misconstrue, and put it in a context to suit their agenda.  It has taught me to be more cautious of what I am willing to confide in others, because people can use your information for their self purposes.  It amazes me how you can give someone a small piece of personal information, and that person can pass it on, making it appear as if they are closer to you than they really are,  "elevate their own standing." 

It's interesting the points you touch on about people not being themselves on the internet.  I use Facebook every day, I have reconnected with my high school alumni of 1970.  We worked and communicated through FB to put together our 45th class reunion, we have kept in touch and formed friendships we didn't even have while in high school, we are able to reach out to each other in deaths, births, birthdays, vacations etc.  I don't expect to ever know them completely. I don't think anyone really can ever know another person 100%.  There are parts of every person that they hold private, for what ever reason are not willing to share with others.  But, then there are those type of people who use the internet to prey on others such as pedophiles, human trafficking, cat fishing, and matchmaking to name a few.  I have watched more Dr. Phil episodes of people getting scammed on the internet than I care to count.  The elderly and young seem the most vulnerable.  I think of so many cases where the male or female has lost a spouse, they go on the internet and find a "friend" who becomes a lifeline after so much grief.  It amazes me how disgusting people can be to prey on others, but it happens every day.  My older sister when she lost her husband turned to the internet and was carelessly meeting so many men and going to meet with them by herself to places she had never gone to before.  I was so afraid for her safety I threatened to contact her two sons and let them know what she was doing if she didn't stop.  She was so much in grief and lonely that she refused to see how unsafe it was.  I lived in constant fear for her. I did a search on one guy she planned on letting travel from his state to hers and spend his time in her home.  He was NOT who he said he was!  When she confronted him on some information I was able to find, he suddenly was diagnosed with an illness he did not want to strap her with.  He was one of many.  The Center people at least have a bit of safety, in the fact they go there each day, face to face, knowing each other.  When an outsider comes into their Center they are cautious and careful.  They have each other to immediately question the outsider's motives and intentions including Kominsky and Dr. Cohen.   

[BarbStAubrey]

My thinking is to expand our frame is a challenge because at a certain point it is starting all over unless you are in the habit of making friends 15 and 20 years younger than yourself - as we age we loose our friends to death - nursing homes most often located in another city and to those who move close to their children - so unless you have younger acquaintances there is no one left. It is difficult because those who attend senior citizen centers most often have a lessor frame or network than your own experience - to me enlargening your frame is having more contacts - as we age it becomes more difficult to make those new contacts because not only are there less venues but our body does not allow us to accomplish as much and so we have to pick and choose -

I can see the value in volunteering if only to hold babies born addicted or to read to children at the library or go to the schools and have the children practice read to you - none of these activities require hand dexterity since many do get arthritis  - but then none of these activities offer a social exchange adult to adult and that is the challenge - so many adult groups meet in the evening and our eyes often do not let us drive at night - this is when being an active member of a church really helps - but that is it - to have a bigger frame means meeting more people and having more interests that involve different kinds of groups.

How many books have recently hit the shelves about usually a guy who is aged, lives alone with the result he is the neighborhood curmudgeon and some young person befriends him and his life changes - we even have Christmas ads of a neighbor stringing lights up for a lonely old guy and he smiles - at least this group has a wider frame than many but it is work to start all over and meet folks without the benefit of community activities to become involved in saving the school or the trees or the lake or whatever or as young parents it was easy to meet folks because of our involvement with our Children's school and sports activities.

I thought as a younger person working as we age was for those who never developed a hobby - now I can see it is a link to the outside world and keeps you more involved as well as forces you to clean up and dress rather than living in jeans and a shirt and best of all you feel necessary - that is the most important take away I have learned so far.

[bellamarie]

Anger......  Now this is an emotion I feel is such a waste of time.  There are so many scripture verses to help teach and guide us about anger and this is one of my favorites:

Ecclesiastes 7:9 - Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry: for anger resteth in the bosom of fools.  (KJV)

When I was younger I was always ready to do battle. I felt I had a passion to stand up for what I thought was right and hell hath no fury as an Italian girl who thinks she is right.  As I have aged, and possibly learned from my past mistakes, I am slow to anger.  When I am angry I do not allow myself to react immediately.  I stop myself, I tell myself to give it a few minutes, hours, overnight sleep on it, and pray for strength to understand why I am so angry, and what to do with it.  I have saved many family upsets among my grown children by being slow to anger.  One son may call me or come talk to me about how the other has hurt them or their wife.  I listen and try to see both sides, I then remind them we are family, and if you confront them while you are angry, you could split the relationship and have a very long time for it to mend.  While I think it's always important to discuss things that bother you, I also feel like sometimes when you give it more thought and time, it does not seem as huge as it was when you were angry.  From being raised in a large Italian family where everyone just screamed, yelled and confronted you on every little thing that bothered them, it was difficult for me to marry into a family that was slow to anger, and not express their feelings openly and loudly like mine.  Over the years I came to realize, not only do you look foolish when you are screaming and yelling and being angry, but you lose people's respect.  These people in the Center I think use anger as a form of communication like my Italian family, they know nothing different.  When Dr. Cohen comes in with is calm, slow, psychological techniques, they immediately start yelling at him.  The Center people will not change like I was able to because they are older, and not willing to change.  This is their way.... this is their means of communication, as the saying goes, "You can't teach an old dog, new tricks."  Not sure if I believe that to be true as far as dogs are concerned, but for argument's sake, it does seem to hold true with people.   

[BarbStAubrey]

Agree Bellamarie that they are not willing to change however I am not so sure it is because of age -you have to be getting something out of what you are doing or you stop - if the anger is not producing results then you stop - just like you stop hitting your fingers with a hammer - the result of any projected feeling can be how it affects others but it can also be what it does for the one being angry - it pumps the adrenaline and makes you feel powerful like a bull moose who bellows and blows up his body to scare rather than engaging in a butting battle. If the other is not scared then the battle ensues - however often on a frosty morning with no predator in sight the moose bellows and blows up his body to say I am alive and I am king of my surroundings. I think some folks do that by showing anger and so their anger is as much self serving as they notice it affects others and lets others know they will not give an inch or at least not give easily. 

[bellamarie]

Barb,  We were posting at the same time.  Oh my, your post on expanding your frame is so point on, it seriously brought tears to my eyes.  I love that commercial of the elderly man looking out his window watching the young kids string Christmas lights.  It just gets right to the heart of things.  It is so vital elderly people find ways of keeping in touch with others.  My hubby retired five years ago, it was two years for me this past April.  My biggest fear of retirement was being lonely, and having nothing to do.  Oh boy was I so wrong about that!  With having grandkids in sports and school activities, we can barely find time to get together with our senior friends.  I do volunteer at a Pro Life Pregnancy Center, and having contact with the young girls who are pregnant, educating them on their "first" and then having those come in who have been through it a few times, sharing their troubled lives with me, does give me a sense of value and importance.  I am able to share some of my life experiences as a mother, grandmother, teacher and day care owner with them.  I leave every time after my three hour shift feeling so alive and productive.  Then I have kept teaching CCD classes which I have done for accumulated over 30 years.  I love walking into the school, greeting my third graders who can not wait to tell me their story of "Guess what happened?"  On Tuesday mornings I can't wait to join our Bible Study members who are for the most part 60+, this is my adult time to share my faith and family time.  In between it's all about the grown kids and grandkids functions.  In the past couple of weeks we have had a bit of a lull in getting together, and of course my hubby and I are starting to feel a little lonely and restless.  I fear we have not yet managed to just sit back and enjoy the down time.  But if I did not have all these things to give my life meaning, I would imagine depression would set in quite quickly because I can be a pjs all day long kind of person, especially in the winter.  All the points you make as to why as we age we are not able to be more active are so spot on.  You have given me lots of insight to help me prepare myself, and hopefully consider how I will manage to continue being active in spite of the aging process, that will in time interfere with my capabilities of remaining active.

I can say........... we will always have SeniorLearn's book club to keep our minds active!!

[bellamarie]

Barb,   on anger....."it pumps the adrenaline and makes you feel powerful like a bull moose who bellows and blows up his body to scare rather than engaging in a butting battle."

Yes, indeed, I know that feeling oh so well!  Anger, while you are experiencing it, can make you feel like you can take on the world!  The sad reality is...... the world is not ready for you, while you are angry.  This president has a tendency to tweet when he is angry, oh how I wish he would count to ten, twenty or even to one-hundred before hitting the "send" button.  (Not to get political, just another reason for why we should stop and think, before reacting with our anger.)

[so P bubble]

The little bit about the power of the word reminded me of... "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God." Seems like John is showing their early Jewish roots.

This is not part of the old Testament. So I don't know i f you can really call it Jewish roots.

"Who is sick?  If I am sick I go to my son, the psychiatrist,"  said Faegl."
This is so typical of the way old people talk here as well. lol  always showing pride of their children accomplishments as if it was their own doing.

"Yet Center folks experienced their connections with each other most convincingly and easily by the expression of anger and conflict.  Anger is a powerful indication of engagement between people ".... (this is what Barbara said above), the very opposite of indifference." It may be regarded as the most dramatic proof of responsiveness and caring. It is also a mode of relationship by people to allow them to deny that they are helpless victims of circumstances.  By demonstrating opposition, per se, one is asserting that he or she has some degree of assertiveness, autonomy, and  power over oneself and possibly others.  It is a basic form of remaining attached."

I do agree totally with this, having observe it  so often, even among the readers coming to exchange their books in the library where I volunteer.  Some want to jump before the one who arrived before them, because "they are more busy", or they don't have "time for small talk" etc.  When they are denied to have their own way, then start the name calling, or unfriendly remarks.  It is not done to hurt, but to show ones worth and the will not to be "second class" as they call it

Barb,   It is so vital elderly people find ways of keeping in touch with others. ...
I can say........... we will always have SeniorLearn's book club to keep our minds active!!

.

So right. The internet has widen my life in unexpected ways.  I had just a few friends and acquaintances after I moved in Israel.  I had a hard time getting used to the people here, the different mentality.  Normally I am not very sociable either I suppose.  With the net, it was like a new world and I found it easier to open up and allow new exchanges. Now it seems I made many friends and even met with some.  So old age for me was richer than before.

About superstition - as I said, many have these fears, or beliefs.  All that was new for me.  The first time a neighbor tffu-tffu -tffu on me, I asked her why she was spitting at me and she explained it was to ward against the evil eye about what she was talking about!
Another is about getting a glass of water thrown on me when getting to the taxi taking me to the airport.  Apparently it guarantee a safe journey.  Lending a coin to the passenger  does the same effect: it ensure a safe return so as to give back the loan.
It was quite an education to immigrate!

[bellamarie]

Bubble, 

Some want to jump before the one who arrived before them, because "they are more busy", or they don't have "time for small talk" etc.  When they are denied to have their own way, then start the name calling, or unfriendly remarks.  It is not done to hurt, but to show ones worth and the will not to be "second class" as they call it.

Whoaaaa..... I can tell you that would not happen in the United States, and if someone tried it, I would be a bit shocked at what would happen.  Gosh, just a customer cutting in a line at Walmart has resulted in full blown fist fights.  There is a semblance of  etiquette regardless of what nationality, or where you are living, and to have the mind set to think you are entitled to act like this to show ones worth and not be "second class" is no excuse for such rude behavior. 

[hongfan]

sounds like you trip went well Hongfan... do you change planes in Japan or in another location?

Barbara, thanks for asking, yes it was smooth. There are now direct flights between Boston and Shanghai, 14-15 hours one way, but for one reason or the other, I have not taken the direct flights yet (schedule, frequent mileage, price, etc), this time I took UA with a transfer at Newark, NJ. End to end is about 20-22 hours, but I am pretty good at sleeping on the airplane and have very little jet lag, so it is not a big deal to me.

Haven't been able to come here in the past few days and last night I finally caught up with your posts. Seems a lot on anger.

My thinking on this is, let me use an analogy, I am not a runner, so if one day I get up to run for 5 miles, or even 2 miles, I will likely collapse totally. For runners, they HAVE to run, say 5-6 miles a day, otherwise, they just don't feel right, both the body and the mood. Our biology adapts to our habits. This is what I think I see in the Center People, they are fighters, they are survivors, they HAVE to fight to feel right. Each ethnic group has some unique gene makeup based on the environment their ancestors lived over a long time. For instance, they found Chinese, with western diet, much easier to get diabetes compared to westerners, because our ancestors have lived with vegetable diet for a long time, so the biology of modern Chinese is not good at handling western style diet. My hypothesis is that with Jewish people has been dealing with so much hostility and dangers in their daily environment (just to think about what Shmuel described about his childhood), their "fighting" genes are probably very strong, this is optimization for survival. Therefore, for us, living in that daily argument, angry, conflict may well likely cause damages to our body easily (like my case for running), for our Center people, it is probably their way of daily running (like the case for runners), this makes them feel "normal".

This may also applies to Bubble's description about the scenes in the library.

[hongfan]

2. This is the chapter Jonathan referred to earlier when Myerhoff expresses irritation and impatience with the Center residents and their quarreling. Later she wonders why she was so irritated. What turned her around? What was the message of the apple skin? Do you find yourself irritated with the Center folks at the end of this chapter or more sympathetic?

If I hold the hypothesis I mentioned in the above post, i.e., the Jewish people are strong survivors and great fighters trained by their experiences with thousand of years of adversities, then I could also understand the behaviors at the lunch table. Survivors don't wait for someone to ask nicely - if you do, you are already dead. You ACT.

But what is interesting, to me, is that the author seems to somehow start to feel or behave like the Center people. Why do I say so? The case for the bruised apple is interesting. The author was angry that other people left her at last a bruised apple, and she was NOT happy with that - while in the meantime she expected that someone else on her table should have taken the bruised apple and be happy with it? To me, I think at that moment, she was starting to behave like the Center People, maybe unaware of by herself?

Bellamarie, I wonder if we ship a group of Americans to Israel, and live there for some time, would they start to behave the same in the library?

It also reminds me what Barbara mentioned in her earlier post "our genes and our social upbringing give us strong tendencies to do (and enjoy) what we do."

[bellamarie]

hongfan, 

Bellamarie, I wonder if we ship a group of Americans to Israel, and live there for some time, would they start to behave the same in the library?

Well, if the people in Israel act like this due to what has been proposed for "their worth and not be second class because of their past history, it wouldn't seem Americans would feel the need to act like this if they moved there.  Unless, we can consider the possibility that people will conform to the environment they are living in, and will take on the same attitudes and behavior as others.  Myself, personally, I can't imagine treating others this way. 

I was a bit surprised how Meyerhoff acted about the apple.  Funny how the "apple" brought her to being a bit selfish and hateful.  Kinda reminds me of the temptation in the Garden of Eden where the "apple" is the fruit to cause Adam and Eve to misbehave.  It surely is a cute analogy, don't you think?   

It's a bit funny, because all this talk of acting differently in another country/environment had me remembering a cute story my friend Debbie told after coming home from Germany.  Mind you she is sixty-four years old and stands 4'9 inches counting her curly hair top.  She was with a group tour from the United States and they were in Germany, a teenage girl had to use the restroom, she was very nervous and asked Debbie to stand watch so no one entered the bathroom.  Debbie stood guard and was going to make sure no male entered the restroom where the teenage girl was in.  A very large security officer approached the door, Debbie stood with her arms outstretched preventing him from going in.  She said, "Excuse me but you can't go in there my friend is in there."  I have no idea if he spoke English or not, but he went to scoot her aside so he could enter.  She remained with her arms barring the door, saying he has to wait.  He was a bit perturbed with here, and stood staring at her.  Luckily, the teenager came out of the restroom and they darted off.  I was simply in shock thinking of what position Debbie was putting herself in while visiting another country.  I asked her if at any time she was afraid of being arrested or assaulted, her response was,  "I only had one thought, and that was to keep him out, because there was no way I was letting him in while that young girl was in there."   

So who knows, my little tiny American friend showed more guts and strength, as if she was David facing down Goliath.  Maybe Americans would act like those in your library.    

When is Rome, do as the Romans do...... in this case Israel or Germany.   

[hongfan]

Through those chapters so far and particularly in this chapter my favorite figure is Basha, she seems a natural leadership material, looked at how she eventually led the group to the reconciliation - isn't she amazing, at 89? She can be 29!

I wonder if there is research on Alzheimer's onset rate in Jewish group vs. other ethnic group. Seems to me with all these daily arguments, no one would have chance to get Alzheimer's?

The other day I got to learn that 20% of Nobel Prize winners are Jewish, given such a small percentage of population (less than 0.5%), isn't that impressive?  It makes me wonder how much Jewish brains benefit from those daily discussions and arguments?

By the way, I just started to listen to an audio book called Unfinished People: Eastern European Jews Encounter America. It included a story in the Old World, in a village, only one Jewish man subscribed the daily Hebrew newspaper, and the rest Jewish men came to the synagogue everyday, listened to him reading the newspaper and then interpreted among them; after some time, they didn't want to wait for him in the synagogue, so they went to his home to listen to his reading and discussed among them; after some time, they didn't want to wait for him in his home, they followed him to the post office, there they listened, discussed, shouted, and more than once the post master had to remind them that the post office was not their synagogue. I chuckled when I listened to this, it reminds me our Center people.

[BarbStAubrey]

Sorry I am going to be ugly - if you justify remaining as you are because of your history and your people's history that is the exact justification the the Irish used to stay drunk and in fact, it is what most alcoholics use as their rational for staying drunk - also, in the last 50 years or so, we have folks saying their childhood and the childhood of their parents  was so bad, (and for many yes, it was bad) that is the justification they use for being addicted to serious drugs till they end up in the morgue - just as there are criminal families that one generation after the other join the criminal ranks and all end up spending part of their life in prison or on the other side of the behavior coin, we have generations of circus folks and now most circuses are disbanded so they have to change.

We had poor folks who during the nineteenth century after generations of living what today we would call homeless, earning their daily keep as criminals till they were sent off to Australia or were indentured servants sent to America or Barbados or other locations populated with criminals - in the new location their environment changed and most could not stay alive in the new raw land using their old world thinking and skills - so I am sorry I do not buy it - anyone  can choose to become empowered with anger or they can learn to touch their inner power when they are living in a new environment -

I can understand questioning God but then, they chose a religion that is built on the belief of a single, vengeful and demanding God and so a lot of expectation from this God who let them down - Reading about the Center and the relationship of one to the other and to the whole group at the Center makes more sense thinking of the group as a Tribe just as other old cultures inter-marry and maintain their personal identities as a member of the group/tribe - These groups/tribes maintain a system of behavior indigenous to the group/tribe - the  group at the Center reject any change and so the initiation to this group appears to include a system of behavior that for me, does not make any of them endearing.

To use anger as a self empowering power grab is a choice - Yes, an easy choice, especially to those who do not have the influence of another way to express themselves - similar are drunks who never knew or saw men as teetotalers and to drink tea versus whiskey was less than manly... When you read about the early days of AA in Ireland and Scotland you learn just how difficult it was for men to go against hundreds of years of culture.

The opposite is also true. After 1000s of years of women operating as a second class with limited self expression and all of a sudden women have freedom and rights that take learning how to operate as well as, still feeling the need to pacify men who cannot let go and accept that women have rights - it's a power game, it's all the same thing - how we behave based in a historical context and then, justifying remaining the same because of that history!!??!!

And so, while reading further I understand where those at the Center are coming from and how they benefit from how they live their lives and I can see the argument for acting as they do - regardless that I like their behavior or not - I just see it as folks justifying what was as if it will always be and should always be what was because that is how we identify ourselves - which is the same as saying we accept that the world spins on an axis of the past - thinking and behaving as in the past does not move us towards a future with healthy behavior, self empowerment or the kind community relationships associated with world peace- assuming that we want world peace which requires among other behavior, kindness and emotional control rather than allowing our lizard brain free reign. 

[hongfan]

Barbara, your comments made me think.

I think we all agree on the power of old habits, and I also tend to think people can change and do change, but that needs a motivation. It seems that the Center people are capable to modify their behaviors either for the love of Israel or the care of the Center - that happened at the beginning of Kominsky's time and is also what Basha used to help make the reconciliation happen in this chapter.

And I bet in the case of "we only have three days to figure out how to live under the water", people can become very very cooperative. So I think it is the question of what kind of motivation needed to engineer behavior changes, and how long you have to keep that motivation in order to have the new behavior sustained and hopefully become permanent.

I have zero knowledge about curing addictions, I am curious how they treat addictive and how effective those methods are?

I heard that the big challenge for weight reduction programs is to keep people with the new behavior (dietary changes, exercises) for long time?

And I am thinking what motivation is needed for the sitting president to change his tweeting habit, for instance?

[hongfan]

I was a bit surprised how Meyerhoff acted about the apple.  Funny how the "apple" brought her to being a bit selfish and hateful.  Kinda reminds me of the temptation in the Garden of Eden where the "apple" is the fruit to cause Adam and Eve to misbehave.  It surely is a cute analogy, don't you think?

Bellamarie, I like your analogy, it is cute, and now you made me think about the apple in the Judgement of Paris which led to the Trojan War. Is apple the oldest fruit on earth? Or what is so special of apple?

[hongfan]

This is from Wikipedia:

Apples appear in many religious traditions, often as a mystical or forbidden fruit. One of the problems identifying apples in religion, mythology and folktales is that as late as the 17th century, the word "apple" was used as a generic term for all (foreign) fruit other than berries, but including nuts.[1] This term may even have extended to plant galls, as they were thought to be of plant origin (see oak apple). For instance, when tomatoes were introduced into Europe, they were called "love apples". In one Old English work, cucumbers are called eorþæppla (lit. "earth-apples'), just as in French, Dutch, Hebrew, Persian and Swiss German as well as several other German dialects, the words for potatoes mean "earth-apples" in English. In some languages, oranges are called "golden apples" or "Chinese apples". Datura is called 'thorn-apple".

My, my, now we don't know what apple was in the Judgement of Paris or in the Garden of Eden?

[ginny]

Wow, what a fascinating range of topics AND opinions. And there's hongfan from Shanghai and this morning's BBC news (which I start every morning with) includes a story from China, and I immediately thought of the Benches and Bellamarie's having said her husband likes to sit and wait when she shops and in that waiting he's talking to others (I think she said he's conversing, without looking back). Certainly at the Malls here you can see the same.

Well in Shanghai they have a new innovation, the "Husband Storage Pod," where the husband can while away the time amusing himself with video games and more.

According to the gentleman interviewed, however, it has no air circulation or air conditioning, so either they need to  put some in for the hot days or it will be of short duration. Which may be the intent. But isn't that a hoot? Obliviously he can play games here he couldn't on his phone or ipad (and there are such games) but the intent is different and once again technology intervenes with actual conversation. On the other hand perhaps he did not care to converse, it's obvious he's a younger man and most of them are tapping iphones at every opportunity. How we've changed!  http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-40609115

That makes me wonder  if the BENCHES outside the current Center are occupied with people conversing. I bet they still are! We need photos of Venice Beach, in the Center area, I bet Google Earth has them, I'll go see, but I also bet there are iphones and ipads too, and that more than one of the seniors are using them. Showing my son the doctor and my son the lawyer and the cutest grandchildren in the whole world.

Our folks, tho, are probably gone, and that's sobering.

[ginny]

Ok this is REALLY interesting. I went to look again and there are two Jewish Centers, a couple of blocks from each other. The one we're concerned with is the one we mentioned here before, now a Shul and family center, and it's SLAP on the beach.  There are no "benches" per se, but somebody has put up steps for sitting and chatting, here's a photo:


That is the Synagogue on the left, the white building, and you can see the seats  in the right hand picture. These are not, if I'm reading the map correctly,  DIRECTLY in front but a little to the left. 

That's 505 Ocean Front Walk, Venice Beach, CA. Looks like four people are already in place waiting for some companionship. Also looks to me like it's a full range of things to look at while they sit there.

The second one is a Jewish Center a couple of blocks down, at 201. The address says it's on the water, but while the building itself may be, the Center itself is a bit down another street. I am not able to get any satisfactory good images of it because I keep getting  lost in the side streets. You all can probably get a much better feel for it yourselves.  I have a feeling that the one people tend to congregate at daily  is our old Center location, the Shul, pictured above, whose program I put up before.

However the  Ira Levin Senior Adult Center at 201 seems to also  have a full range of activities and programs. Here's one list:

    Holocaust Survivor Support Group
    Second Gen Holocaust Survivor Support Group
    Domestic Violence Training
    Cafe Europa Valley July
    Cafe Europa City July
    FMMC Activities July
    WHCSC Spotlight July - September
    Israel Levin Activities July
    JFS { Israel Levin Venice Jam

    Get on Board with WeHo Transportation
    Paul Castro Attends Clinton Global Initiative
    JFS Voted Nonprofit of the Year by Assembly member Adrin Nazarian
    Watch our newest animated video!
    Jewish Journal article about the JFS { Lois & Richard Gunther Center

So from what I can tell from this, and it's not much, it seems that instead of only ONE center there are now two.

[bellamarie]

Ginny, this is interesting, but sad.  I know for a fact my hubby would never go inside a booth like this to play games, vs talking with strangers, while waiting for me to return from browsing in and out of stores at the mall.  He is too much of a people person.  Last week end he and I packed our picnic basket, grabbed a blanket, drove to Maumee Bay State Park, laid out our blanket and sat and people watched.  You would be surprised how many people get out to enjoy the beautiful weather, rather than stay in to watch tv on a Sunday afternoon.  I can tell you while there, we never saw anyone on their gadgets.  So just maybe the outdoors, walking, riding bikes, sailing, lying on their boats, eating ice cream cones, and having a fun time on a paddle boat under the fountain is enough for folks today.  I know it was a perfect three hours spent for us, eating our picnic lunch, reading my book, coloring in my spiritual book, sitting along the water, and strolling hand in hand with this wonderful man I have been married to for forty-six years.  Which brings me to wonder if any of our Center singles ever became more than just friends.  I would like to think they found companions through the years of seeing each other daily.   

Ginny, we were posting at the same time.  It's wonderful to see there are still Centers around.
   

[ginny]

Barbara has raised a big question here and Hongfan has a thoughtful response. I'm not sure I agree with the idea that the Jewish people are perpetuating old behavior by remembering the past. I thought that was what we did with our thoughts of "Lord God of Hosts be with us yet, lest we forget, lest we forget?"

I thought the "lest we forget" was a reminder TO remember. There hasn't been another Holocaust, but Antisemitism still exists, and I think that's what they are constantly warning about. And they are right. If it could happen once, it could happen again.

We can see in the programs of the Ira Levin Center, there are still survivors of the Holocaust. How could anybody ever forget something like that? And more to the point, why should they? WE in America did not  SEE all the film and testimony  of what really happened, but they did elsewhere in the world. I've seen some of  it and it's unbelievable. That's why Stephen Spielberg  set out to interview as many as he could. Lest we forget.

On alcoholism, has it not been proven that the susceptibility to alcoholism is genetic? That is, IF you start, genetically you are programmed not to do well in trying to stop? I THOUGHT I had read that, which I think is said as a warning, but perhaps some people might use as an excuse.

Of course again in some societies (that Tribes allusion, Barbara, was great) I do agree  alcoholism is a learned cultural  coping mechanism, like anger, and passive aggressive behavior, and is handed down. It may take a lot of strength to oppose it in those thus exposed.   LOTS more to say but a grandson has just entered the house (talk about expanding frames, full of happiness and joy and ENERGY so I will be this afternoon returning, re-framed.

[BarbStAubrey]

There are two parts to alcoholism just as there are two parts when addicted to drugs - the part that is physical where the substance affects the brain - forgot the name of the spot in the brain but it is where we strain out what is pleasant and what is not - so that we all prefer to feel good and to break that cycle of using a substance to feel good is one aspect - The other aspect, that is as big, is the behavior that is the lifestyle of an addictive person - changing behavior takes years and years because the addictive personality and the subsequent addictive behavior is insidious as part of our thinking - Folks who attend AA meetings and want to change have a sponsor to help but it takes attending meetings for years where daily experiences are shared and explored for better way to handle life. Then folks, like myself have learned this behavior since we are the children or grandchildren of alcoholics where that was the only behavior we knew. It is not easy - and it takes much effort but it can be done as millions will testify.

I do think there is a difference in the behavior we expect from others - if the other is a leader we have a different set of standards however, they are our standards that we use to measure and judge - others may not share our viewpoint therefore they have a different opinion. This goes for our president as well as reading a book about a group of people.

As I evaluate maintaining a posture of anger to me is like playing with fire - Anger leaves little room for calm thoughtful solution making thinking which is the skill we use to sort out differences and to realize we cannot expect others to agree with our expectations for behavior - if we could, there would be no need for laws, lawyers, courts, halfway houses etc.

Incessant tweeting is a symptom of a system of behavior just as anger is a symptom of a system of behavior just as dulling the pain of our lives by feeling good with alcohol or drugs is a symptom of a system of behavior - to understand the value of a system of behavior means shedding expectations of behavior using our own as the goal post - then we can decide if we admire or not the behavior and if we want to adapt any part of it to our own life.

Many today think the more drama the more important and necessary they and their life issue is to others - we are surrounded with folks who in order to gain free media and public attention are masters at creating drama and so too within families and within communities we have those who master the skill of creating drama - they know how to attract attention using drama - this group appears to outdo each other in creating drama rather than, outdoing each other in helpful service to each other and to the larger community. I just do not admire their choice.

If there is no choice in behavior because events prevent us from making choices than we are saying there is no free will and no individual power - we are all controlled by our circumstances.

[bellamarie]

Wow!  How did we get to the topic of alcoholism?  There has been extensive research on this topic and alcoholism is proven to be genetic.  People who are genetically predisposed to alcoholism have a higher risk of becoming addicted. Although people can inherit alcoholic tendencies, the development of an alcohol use disorder is also dependent on social factors.  I have alcoholism in my family, many family members belong to AA and have successfully not used any type of substances be it alcohol or drugs since the began AA.  I attended an Alanon meeting, brought home  phamphlets, and talked with professionals on this topic.  I have not cared for drinking, I may have an alcoholic beverage once in awhile, but could really care less about it.  I do see that in social situations many of my friends and family members abuse it, and because of this the younger generations are following in the same path.  I worry about my granddaughter who just turned twenty-one and drinks alcohol almost daily.  I do believe even though we can be predisposed to alcoholism, we do have the free will to chose to either not drink at all, or do it moderately. 

The world has become one huge drama queen, thanks to our media turning into a drama frenzy.  I refuse to turn any MSM channels on my tv.  I leave my tv off the entire day and watch only my selected shows on my DVR.  Yes, I prefer watching the Kartrashians as Ginny called them instead of News programs.  I refuse to have our local newspaper delivered to my house even when it is offered six months FREE because it is so biased.  Liberals own most of all the News networks, programming, magazines, newspapers, etc., and the bias is insane.  I like two sides to every story and all there is now is constant hate mongering.  It just makes my head spin.  At my age, I just don't need nor want the drama.  We do have free will and I exercise mine.  Okay, done with all this because it only upsets me to be reminded of where we are today.  I am off to a pleasant pool party with family & friends! 

[ginny]

Worlds of great posts, and so many thoughts!

I'll just pick a few,and not say who said it,  but feel free to respond to anything you see posted.

You would be surprised how many people get out to enjoy the beautiful weather, rather than stay in to watch tv on a Sunday afternoon.

  No I don't think so, it's common everywhere including Europe, the parks are full of people enjoying the day and the sun.

I thought your description of the picnic basket and day was just wonderful, Bellamarie!   


 I don't think anyone really can ever know another person 100%. I agree 100%. What do the rest of you think?

"Frames" is an interesting concept  for this author to take up. I think we see people through "frames," ourselves.  We see them through our own prisms, so we read into them or their words or their actions what WE think from our own experience they are and are saying.  We don't know THEM at all.

The Center people at least have a bit of safety, in the fact they go there each day, face to face, knowing each other.  When an outsider comes into their Center they are cautious and careful.  This is a very good point.

My thinking is to expand our frame is a challenge because at a certain point it is starting all over unless you are in the habit of making friends 15 and 20 years younger than yourself - as we age we loose our friends to death - nursing homes most often located in another city and to those who move close to their children - so unless you have younger acquaintances there is no one left.

Another excellent point, Barbara. I well remember the author who wrote 64 Charing Cross Road.  I still feel sad that we did not know she was alive when we read her book at least we could have reached out to her and let her know how much we loved it. From the article on her in  The New York  Times:

But ''84, Charing Cross Road'' could not provide its author with the economic stability she sought throughout her life. ''The one drawback about being a writer is that you never know in any month where the rent is coming from six months from then,'' Ms. Hanff told Publishers Weekly in 1985.

In her last years she was ''broke,'' by her own account, living on royalties and Social Security and accepting a $5,000 grant from the Authors League Fund to help pay her hospital bills.

No immediate family members survive.

So she died penniless in a home but she did not lack friends because she had made  friends who were a lot younger. When I first read of her death I thought oh she's so elderly. She was 80!!!!! She had expanded her frames all over the place.

These people in the Center I think use anger as a form of communication like my Italian family, they know nothing different.  When Dr. Cohen comes in with is calm, slow, psychological techniques, they immediately start yelling at him.

Why, do you all think?  Because they are afraid? Because he's from the City Health Department?  That's scary in itself.

Lots more, you've said a lot of great stuff.

[ginny]

we will always have SeniorLearn's book club to keep our minds active!!

I hope so.

always showing pride of their children accomplishments as if it was their own doing.  Good point, Bubble.  There are a lot of people who live thru their children's accomplishments. Especially noted are parents who themselves did not play sports well but who are determined their son or daughter will be a star athlete. Read the autobiography sometime of Andre Agassi. I am thinking of a neighbor on NJ now who was determined his poor son would be a star athlete. The boy had no interest or talent, it did not go well. Such mistakes we as parents make!!!!


With the net, it was like a new world and I found it easier to open up and allow new exchanges. Now it seems I made many friends and even met with some.  So old age for me was richer than before.

That is lovely,  Bubble!


It was quite an education to immigrate!  I can well imagine. It's an education to move to different parts of the US, too.


Whoaaaa..... I can tell you that would not happen in the United States,

Oh yes, ma'am, it would and did. When we as Book Clubbers and Latin students went to the last Bookfest in NYC it happened then. We had attended the Broadway Musical Million Dollar Quartet the night that Jerry Lee Lewis was himself to appear onstage. I think he was the only member of those 4 who was alive, Johnny Cash, Elvis Presley, Jerry Lee Lewis and  Carl Perkins (not sure about him) still alive.   Because Gay, one of our Latin students from England,  turned out to be a true Jerry Lee Lewis fan, I gave her my seat which was down front (and turned out to be the center of attention for the famous guest (s) who sat a couple of seats from her, too.)

So afterwards we had to meet up and wait for her and suddenly there was all this excitement, security pushing back the crowds, limo, etc., and a celebrity who had been in the building was coming OUT!! Crowd instantly becomes hysterical.  Who IS  it? I was on the front, the very front of the crowd, that had been pushed back.  I thought perhaps it might be Lewis, who would be interesting (the show was magnificent, the  young man who played him was out of this world,  and then Lewis also took the stage, it was great fun)...and anyway excitement rose to a fever pitch and they began to exclaim .....rumor flew it was Bill Clinton!!!  And his daughter Chelsea who had been at the same row Gay was in, with her fiance or husband or something.

I didn't care about seeing Bill Clinton, no offense, but I didn't. So I thought well how  to get out of this pressing crowd and not get stuck staring him  in the face with nothing useful to say or do. How to act? Because I literally would have been able to reach out and touch him.  I needn't have worried. The doors flew open, security burst out, and guess what? I was suddenly for no reason at all in the 6th or 7th rank of spectators. People, well dressed, elegant looking older people  pushed and shoved and crowded their way to the front and to be truthful all I saw was his white hair.

And again when we used to take the kids to Florida each summer at the beach and always go to Disney World, those shuttle buses to get to the outer parking lots? Forget it. We were pushed aside so many times it seems we would never get out. THAT has changed. I guess it has, we stay at the park now and Disney has been very clever with their lines so we are not taking shuttle buses anywhere. I did not see any pushing or shoving  last time on any of the transportation venues, Disney has a clamp on good manners but who knows what would happen if suddenly Bill  Clinton appeared? hahahaa

[ginny]

THIS, I thought, was fascinating!

But what is interesting, to me, is that the author seems to somehow start to feel or behave like the Center people. Why do I say so? The case for the bruised apple is interesting. The author was angry that other people left her at last a bruised apple, and she was NOT happy with that - while in the meantime she expected that someone else on her table should have taken the bruised apple and be happy with it?

I missed that, Hongfan, entirely.

Immediately I thought of a series of books for children that were sold in sets in the US by traveling salesmen in the 50's I think, handsome little books of homilies and moral tales called Uncle Arthur's Bedtime Stories. In these British Christian theology centered books, there was a story about a little boy who always took the largest apple or piece of anything, so his.....grandmother, I think, made a beautiful set of tarts and made one much bigger than the others and prettier, and of course he chose it, and it was hollow. I don't have to tell you the moral or the lesson the child needed to learn but it seems that in our modern tale, the author was not of the same persuasion. i find that fascinating!

But then what happened? I need to read that over again, there was a dream about an apple peel or something?

I tell you what, there is a medicine I've been given called Amlodapine  or something like that. It causes fatigue so I started taking it at night where it regales me with old memories I had hoped were long forgotten, but the mind remembers, it remembers and that handy little BP med will probably put me under the ground with its nightly nightmares. I read somewhere the brain keeps working over (here I am again with research with NO substantiation) what worries you or puzzles you until it resolves it, including all night long.

So what did Myerhoff's dream mean? I need to go back and read that again.

To me, I think at that moment, she was starting to behave like the Center People, maybe unaware of by herself?

Oh cool, I missed all this, I must go back.

I wonder if we ship a group of Americans to Israel, and live there for some time, would they start to behave the same in the library?

Good question. Nature vs nurture.

Germany, a teenage girl had to use the restroom, she was very nervous and asked Debbie to  This story confused me, Bellamarie? Was it a unisex bathroom?

Seems to me with all these daily arguments, no one would have chance to get Alzheimer's?

Or die early of a stroke.

Eastern European Jews Encounter America  That sounds like a good book. There is an Immigrant Museum in NYC right down from where we stayed when we went to NYC and I never got in it, it's a brownstone fixed up just as it would have been lived in then.

Anybody have a guess as to what this means? "A frontal attack would tail, but what that strategy might be, no one could foresee." What does that mean?  Page 158.


 What did you think about Myerhoff's take on Rain Dancing? (page 190, bottom)

I am hating to see the book ending. The next Chapter, Chapter 6 (how did we miss one or can't I count?) at any rate is called Number Our Days. I am afraid to read this because I worry that ends will be tied up and I hate to see our Center Folks ...go out. It starts on page 195 and goes to page 231,  and is followed by a big long Chapter 7 and then a short Epilogue and Afterword. (Like Scrooge and the Ghost of Christmas Future I fear these two the most. But it looks like we must gird ourselves and plunge in.

Should we say Wednesday, then for Chapter 7, Number our Days? Till then we can talk about anything you feel is important or what stood out for you in this chapter?

[bellamarie]

Ginny, 

This story confused me, Bellamarie? Was it a unisex bathroom?

Gosh, I'm not sure if she stated if it was a unisex bathroom.  We were all at our girl's luncheon, she got up to use the restroom and came back laughing that she had accidentally walked into the men's bathroom and then proceeded to tell us this story about when she was in Germany with the tour group, and the teenage girl went into the restroom and was nervous about a man coming in.  I'm assuming it was NOT a ladies ONLY restroom because she would have had no reason to be concerned. Sorry for the confusion.  We all found it quite amusing, and yet concerned for our tiny little friend to stand up to a very large security guard in a foreign country.

[Jonathan]

The moral of the rotten apple story surely is: don't be at the end of any line. Better pickings the closer you are to the front. Isn't it wonderful trying to understand Jewish behavior  among the seniors at the Center. First, a quote from the book:

'It seems that a woman nobody knew, a South American Jew, had stopped in the Center during one of their 'commotions.' She died shortly after and in her will left the Center five hundred dollars because she found the old people so wonderful, so full of life.' p191

Early in the discussion the question was asked, Do the Chinese and the Jews have something in common? It's well known that both urge their children to excel. Life is all about competing, whether it's in the marketplace or at the civil service examinations. Do they seem pushy? Shucks, no, folks. It's a race. My test of civilized behavior is, are they good drivers. How does the traffic move in Tel Aviv, Bubbles? Do they cooperate? Do they yield when it's wise to do so? Are drivers subject to road rage? Does one get a finger or a smile in tight situations?

I'm pondering the suggestion of tribalism in the community. My experience is that no race has a greater desire to be cosmopolitan than the Jew.

I like what Shmuel has to say about his compatriots, at the end of the chapter:

'We stay the same. It is our nature. We try to bring order out of things, but we are hopeless. We have pretensions, but we are not getting anywhere. Man cannot find order in his own bosom, that goes for the Jew and the Gentile....The Jews have not been tested in our day.

What a strange thing to say.

[so P bubble]

Early in the discussion the question was asked, Do the Chinese and the Jews have something in common? It's well known that both urge their children to excel. Life is all about competing, whether it's in the marketplace or at the civil service examinations. Do they seem pushy? Shucks, no, folks. It's a race. My test of civilized behavior is, are they good drivers. How does the traffic move in Tel Aviv, Bubbles? Do they cooperate? Do they yield when it's wise to do so? Are drivers subject to road rage? Does one get a finger or a smile in tight situations?

On the road, as in lines, you have to be pushy. Most drivers would take chances, just to be the first at the red light.  If you see the red light ahead and start to slow down, the one behind will start hooting if he has no free lane to overtake.  Hooting is general. My Canadian friend who was on a visit was stupefied by the hooting at all hours, even at night, on the street in front of my building.  Time is money, right?
And the worse drivers are taxi drivers and doctors who generally are very in-attentive. Maybe their mind is busy on their patients?  As for texting and driving, it is against the law and the fines  are heavy.  But who ever heard of obeying the law???

[ginny]

Gosh, I'm not sure if she stated if it was a unisex bathroom.  We were all at our girl's luncheon, she got up to use the restroom and came back laughing that she had accidentally walked into the men's bathroom and then proceeded to tell us this story about when she was in Germany with the tour group, and the teenage girl went into the restroom and was nervous about a man coming in.  I'm assuming it was NOT a ladies ONLY restroom because she would have had no reason to be concerned. Sorry for the confusion.  We all found it quite amusing, and yet concerned for our tiny little friend to stand up to a very large security guard in a foreign country.

Thank you for trying to clarify that, Bellamarie.  I do understand the intended point of the story. It's a good tale, but I think she was lucky in the man she encountered. As  you say, there are always two sides to every story.

Bubble, horn  honking!!! It's considered quite rude to do that where I live (admittedly not a large city), and it's dying out.  Usually if somebody does honk a horn, say, for a delayed reaction to a light turning green, it depends entirely on how the horn is honked. A light tap usually gets a wave, anything else gets something else. We have enough nuts on the roads as it is and Road Rage, we don't need any more.  Is there a lot of Road Rage in Israel?

Horn honking is just another example of anger, isn't it?

I agree, Jonathan, that IS a strange thing to say. What did YOU think Shmuel meant? (I misspell Shmuel every time because of the lack of vowels where I think they should be.)

[so P bubble]

"I misspell Shmuel every time because of the lack of vowels where I think they should be"

As you probably know, everyday Hebrew is written without vowels.  Reading is really a guessing game - it does keep the attention sharp.

Road rage?  Yes I suppose it exists.  Of late we  have an epidemic of drivers running over pedestrians, often killing them and sometimes fleeing the site without giving help to the victim.  This month, I hear a case on the news about every second day!  We a;so had 38 cases of husbands murdering their wife since the beginning of the year   I don't know how one can explain what is happening to people these days.  Too much violence.

[ginny]

 Striking pedestrians and leaving them there? Wow. Are they texting or just...?

I just saw one on TV on the evning news, the driver hit two girls and their little brother but miraculously , all survived!

I started to read the next chapter so I would be ready Wednesday and was stunned, I couldn't put it down. It's amazing  lessons  in how to grow old, and what makes for successful aging. I can't wait till we get there Wednesday!

(Did you just see that 100 year old woman break the record for the 100 yard dash? In her class?) Do I have those numbers right?  Man that makes me want to get out there.

 But I did reread the apple thing, hongfan, and you are right.  The author felt aggrieved with being left the bruised ones and angry in general toward the quarrelsome Center folks. But then...she had something of an epiphany. I had some problems with this issue so reread it.

She  DREAMED and here again, DREAMS are going to enter into the next chapter, but she dreamed that (this starts on page 188)   she had traveled to Poland, and that Carlos Castaneda opened a door to a hotel and pointed to some hieroglyphic writing on the wall. She was supposed to decipher it. There was a bowl of apples on the table.
She removed one, polished it on her sleeve, and held it up to the hieroglyphics.  Reflected  on the shiny surface of the apple, she could read the message.  But she forgot it when she woke up.

So a couple of days later she went back to the  Center, and did not know what she had been so upset about. "Then I understood the message on the apple skin. The selfish women at my table for lunch were themselves too bruised to graciously accept a damaged piece of fruit. The meal had been free-- a windfall-- but its conclusion  had threatened another disappointment and that was too much to bear. These people themselves were too much like rotten, unwanted fruit. Their struggle with the better apples was a small way of repudiating their own condition."

OK so....now I come back to hongfan's thought on  the author who also was...was she?.... disappointed in the bruised apple left, so much so that she became disenchanted for the first time with the Center folks themselves. So....what does that say?


And what are we to make of the dream?

[bellamarie]

I think this book may be getting to me just a little bit.  I told you all about my family friend Marilyn who moved into an elderly center last year.  Well, yesterday I was talking to my daughter in law's mother Sandy who just got her keys and will be moving into an apartment complex for elderly on fixed income.  He husband passed away in March and my son and her daughter have had her living with them since his death.  She was feeling like she was ready to try living by herself so she is letting her house go back to the bank due the the fact she can not financially keep it and afford to live alone there.  Talking with her yesterday was so sad, she is dealing with letting go of all her things she has gathered over her forty years living in her home with her husband.  She is apprehensive about living in this apartment living alone for the first time ever.  I was telling her about this book we are reading and how it is dealing with aging, loneliness, children growing up and the changes we all go through as we age.  I shared stories from the book and told her how these elderly people were all single and depended on the Center for friendship and interaction with others.  She told me of a couple ladies she has already met, and how excited they were to see a new person moving in.  They have a meeting room, a work out room, a little space outside her apartment she can plant flowers, which she was happy about.  I think after talking with her she felt so much better, but I am not sure my pep talk helped me.  I have been feeling a bit blue today.  I am just so thankful I still have my hubby, but watching Sandy go through these past few months has been such a reality check for me, and this book has really got me aware of things.  I can see how if you do not stay involved in activities, family, and friends you could slip into a depression and your health would start to fail quickly.  I am so proud of my son for welcoming his mother in law into his home when she needed their family so badly, to help her transition through this time of grief.  My/her grandchildren have been a huge help in keeping her busy and feeling needed and loved.  Her daughter has allowed her the time she has needed to be prepared to move out when she decided to.  We have all told her that at any time she feels she needs someone, just drive to their house and have dinner, visit or spend the night.  She will only be ten minutes away.  I think I will find her a copy of this book and give to her along with a housewarming (apartment) gift.   

[Jonathan]

God bless you, Bellamarie, for helping others in need. You truly are a good Samaritan. And Sandy is fortunate to have you and her daughter helping her through a difficult time. I have no doubt she will find this book a great distraction. It certainly is for me. I've just noticed that you and I posted at the exact same minute last night.

Bubble, I'm horrified to hear about the hazardous traffic where you live. Do take care. It reminds me of our traffic of years ago. We've found that driver etiquette moves traffic in everybodys favor.

Ginny, what a splendid thing to aim for. The dash at 100!!! Go for the Olympics!!!

I have a serious problem with an anthropologist becoming disenchanted with her subject. Do you think Shmuel is a bad influence? I don't know what to make of that curious dream of hers.

[ginny]

 That was lovely of you Bellamarie, why not invite her in here and everybody in her apartment complex to the book club?  This is kind of like a Center itself,  isn't it?
A Virtual Center.

When I first read your post I was so happy for Sandy's bold new direction, and her wanting some independence, because it seemed to me she was expanding her frame all over the place and I was glad for her. 10 minutes is nothing.  Unlike Sandy many of those at the Center do not live close to their children and feel (whether or not it's the case) somewhat on their own. She is not "abandoned." It worked for Marilyn, didn't it?

We have three here on SeniorLearn who have just done the same, 4 if you count moves in progress. So Sandy is in good company.

She's only been widowed  4 months if I read that right,  lots of changes for her. Hopefully if she has to move so soon  from her old home, which itself will be traumatic, she  will enjoy her new space and her new friends. I hope she finds a new world to enjoy,  and I admire her for wanting some independence.  How about let us know how it works out? Tell her the Virtual Center is pulling for her. hahaha

Jonathan, I have a serious problem with an anthropologist becoming disenchanted with her subject. Do you think Shmuel is a bad influence? I don't know what to make of that curious dream of hers.


Well on the other hand, even tho she's supposed to meld, she is entitled to be disenchanted, right? Does that show that she is becoming like them as hongfan thought, (perhaps the assimilation was TOO good and she's become one with the kvetching herself?) The Narrator as Kvetcher?

And really that type of thinking, the critical, negative, way of thought is contagious.

Funny on Shmuel (thank you for that reminder,  Bubble, about the consonants, I had forgotten that), being a "bad influence." IS he?  What do you all think?

I will say  I was somewhat surprised at his comments here, the  length of them and the  depth of them and what appeared to be the  burden of giving them. I think...hadn't he already died?   But this is not fiction and so he gave apparently a lot more thoughts than we saw before he died... I am sensing, critical negative thing that I am,  (and I AM working on it) there was more to those last interview comments than she originally said, you can see the weariness in these.

It was a series of interesting things about the apple, wasn't it? Three apples left, the almost fight over them, and the guilty looks they gave her..that alone I think I could riff on a long time. Why should they shoot her guilty looks and not shoot any at the other Center members? Why should SHE think of them as guilty looks and become angry and disgusted? Surely she is not starving? I wouldn't want one of the apples if they had been the best in the land, I just personally don't have a need to take one: let them have them. Maybe she did become one of them for a second, trying to politely fit in.  Not understanding this bit.

So she dreams: Carlos Castaneda opened a door to a hotel and pointed to some hieroglyphic writing on the wall. She was supposed to decipher it. There was a bowl of apples on the table.

She removed one, polished it on her sleeve, and held it up to the hieroglyphics.  Reflected  on the shiny surface of the apple, she could read the message.  But she forgot it when she woke up.

. "Then I understood the message on the apple skin. The selfish women at my table for lunch were themselves too bruised to graciously accept a damaged piece of fruit. The meal had been free-- a windfall-- but its conclusion  had threatened another disappointment and that was too much to bear. These people themselves were too much like rotten, unwanted fruit. Their struggle with the better apples was a small way of repudiating their own condition."
[/b]

I am having a lot of trouble with this interpretation. If "these people themselves were too much like rotten, unwanted fruit," then why did it bother her not to have one of the better pieces of fruit?   That's the $64,000 question.

Do YOU, with your lack of anthropological knowledge, see these people as "rotten, unwanted fruit?" She's not saying they felt like that, she's saying they were too much like that.  I have to object, my own frame of reference does not allow this, at all.

That's would never have occurred to me. My own inadequacy  here? I'm having a lot of problems with this facile Miracle of the Apple Dream. I mean we know that the mind does work all night while we are supposedly sleeping trying to figure out things that troubled or puzzled it during the day. So this may have, in fact, happened. But the interpretation of it  is really....  too much, for me at least, what do you all think?

[bellamarie]

"Then I understood the message on the apple skin. The selfish women at my table for lunch were themselves too bruised to graciously accept a damaged piece of fruit. The meal had been free-- a windfall-- but its conclusion  had threatened another disappointment and that was too much to bear. These people themselves were too much like rotten, unwanted fruit. Their struggle with the better apples was a small way of repudiating their own condition."

I did not like the whole apple thing at all.  As you noticed, I earlier commented about the apple causing sin, first in the Garden of Eden, and then now with Myerhoff in how she reacted and talked about the Center people being damaged and bruised fruit.  That shocked me when I read her expressing her personal feelings coming out in her dream.  I've heard dreams can be our subconscious thoughts. 

Thank you Jonathan and Ginny for all your kind words.  I would love to invite Sandy to our online book club, the only probably is she does not have wifi.  I'm going to talk to my son and daughter in law once Sandy has gotten moved into her apartment and see if there is any way they could provide her with wifi.  Sandy has never been on the internet before, she has no computer, tablet or smart phone.  Before her husband died in March they accumulated enormous medical bills and financially she has to give up her house.  She lived with my son and her daughter for these past four months, but I think as we all can attest to, once we are our age it's fun to be around our kids and grandchildren for a while, but living with them with all their busy lives with the kids she found it was too much for her.  As much as we at our age may feel lonely when our kids are not around, we do like our quiet time and alone time.  In a house of three grandchildren involved in school, sports, friends, etc., she felt overwhelmed.  I do think it takes a lot of courage for her to make the effort to find this apartment, and decide it was time for her to move out.  I was talking to Natasha her daughter and my son yesterday and they seem to be having a difficult time letting her go.  I know Natasha will worry about if she is okay, but like I pointed out, she is only minutes away.  I'll keep you all abreasted how it goes.

I have started the next chapter and oh boy Myerhoff has me shaking my head.  Seems she packed an entire thesis in one chapter.  Can't wait to hear what everyone has to say.

Bubble,  The traffic sounds horrid!!!  I can no longer drive on the expressway due to so much havoc, I can't imagine dealing with rude and impatient people on our local streets.

Taking the two grandkids Zak & Zoey, to see Despicable Me 3 today, so will check in later....