The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online

[Jonathan]

Welcome to our Fall read,
Trollop's, Barchester Towers

November 5 - November 11 Discussing, Chapter 40 - to - Chapter 53 Barchester is an ancient but imaginary twenty-ninth dioceses to the medieval parochial and cathedral system of the Anglican Church in Britain. Central to the Victorian characters who occupy this factitious community is social conflict; both the trivial and the important are presented with equal respect and noble intent.  "'Wilt thou have this woman as thy wedded wife,' and 'wilt thou have this man to thy wedded husband, to live together according to God's ordinance?' We have no doubt that they will keep their promises, -- the more especially as the Signora Neroni had left Barchester before the ceremony was performed."

Please post your impressions, questions, observations and research ---

The schedule for our discussion     Oct. 8 - 14 ---- Chapter 1, Who will be the new Bishop? -  to - Chapter 9, The Stanhope Family Oct. 15 - 21 --- Chapter 10, Mrs Proudie's Receptions - Commenced - to - Chapter 19, Barchester by Moonlight Oct. 22 - 28 --- Chapter 20, Mr Arabin - to - Chapter 27, A Love Scene Oct. 29 - Nov. 4 --- Chapter 28, Mr. Bold is entertained by Dr and Mrs Grantly at Plumstead - to - Chapter 39, The Lookalofts and the Greenacres. Nov. 5 - 11 --- Chapter 40, Ullathorne Sports - Act II - to - Chapter 53, Conclusion -

Discussion Leader: Barb

There he is at the end, with his triumphant  hymn of thanks giving. His paean. 'He had girded himself with his sward, and gone forth to the war.' Archdeacon Grantly. We met him first, on his knees, after he had angered God with his self-seeking preoccupation.

But didn't they all fight their own war. Who could have thought that a community of clergymen and their wives, daughters and sweethearts could be so lively. And religion kept out of it, so as not to anger anyone. Comforting to read that the fishes and loaves will now feed 14 hungry Quiverfuls. Thanks to the press? It was the press that kept Mr Harding from accepting the Dean's office, just as it had hounded him into resigning as Warden. In a later volume, I've read, Bishop Proudie suffers a nervous breakdown. Small wonder. But they're all such vivid characters. I liked all the literary allusions, as much as I liked them in Byatt's Possession.

And Kidsal is reading Grant. He also fought a war. Did the archdeacon put you onto it? I have Grant's Personal Memoirs. [/iBeen meaning to read it for years. But first, another one I've been meaning to read. Lincoln and The Power of the Press.

Downton Abbey is pretty tame stuff, isn't it?

[BarbStAubrey]

Sorry about that Jonathan - now it is your turn to have the heading as company to your post - got caught up in the shooting at Southerland Springs and stopped before I got the heading up - back later...!

[bellamarie]

Oh Jonathan, A. Byatt's Possession, that book stayed with me for months after finishing it.  I remember reading somewhere, that the people became possessed, by the very things they were seeking to possess.  Darn if I can find it.

I love that you mention the Quiverful's family of fourteen children, get the loaves and fish.  Who could be more deserving.

Yes, Tollope was able to write a story about the church, but not about religion.  That takes talent!  And, I will go one step further, and say how he was able to show you can be a Christian, and yet lack in character, and indeed, harbor one, or all of the Seven Deadly Sins:

1.  Pride
2.  Greed
3.  Lust
4.  Envy
5.  Gluttony
6.  Wrath
7.  Sloth

Shows human flaws, and reason to go to church for redemption. 

[bellamarie]

Monday, the last week of discussion, and the last chapters of the book.  Is it weird that I am going to miss these quirky characters, and all of you who have stuck with the discussion?   But like all books, they must come to an end.....

Even though, the book began with Eleanor, a widow, Mr. Slope and Bertie seeing her as a great catch because of her income, and Mr. Arabin coming to Barchester falling in love with her, I do not see this as a love story.  It has been more about the interactions of the people of Barchester, and the politics in the choosing of placement in positions in the church, along with how the press can have influence.  Sounds like a typical day in the good ole USofA today.

 

[Jonathan]

Heartbreaking news from Sutherland Springs. What a lovely little church. What a senseless, cowardly act. What a sorry day for Texas and all the world. What is the world coming to?

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, Bellamarie have to agree - even the love story seems to be a political maneuvering over Eleanore's money and even Arabin acknowledges he will benefit from her substantial income.

What I also saw was this was Trollop writing a story that bottom line shows his support for maintaining class differences. There was Slope whose real crime was to bring new ideas and had the effrontery to take on the mantel of a class he did not belong - all the actions and ways that were attributed to his character I remember as being the attributions to Blacks before the 1960s - the picture at the time was the black man, usually a big black man pouncing on a white girl, being uppity by showing their education or having anything to say politically much less dressing well or living in a home typical of white middle class. Slope was given the attributes of every reason he should be banned from attaining a place among those in a higher class - thinking of it not as a character in the story but writing the character - he was written to epitomize someone climbing into another class just as the wife and daughters of the farmer who showed up in the 'wrong' dining room at the garden party.

Bertie, although a foolish clown was acceptable because he was included in the 'right' class. He lived on credit as someone in the upper class with all the trappings and not really having a job. Knowing Trollop had to leave the 'public' school system when the family had financial difficulties he probably saw boys like Bertie at Winchester and a piece of his way of accepting his downgraded station was to make others look like they were winging it to be included hobnobbing among their own in the class system.

I wonder how close to his own father is Reverend Harding who is rather a meek man without the income but with the education and breeding to be included - Trollop's father went to the very best and oldest traditional public schools Britain had to offer and he expected all his boys to also attend these schools but his financial reversal called short Anthony Trollop's continuing and he had to transfer to the local day school. And so maybe he had felt the sting of class differences and so rather then actually promoting it he was using his experience as a given in his story.

I remember reading Thackeray and shocked to my toes at how disparaging right there in print he was to the Irish - I knew that Britain considered the Irish as clowns which the Irish adopted at the time as a way to avoid harsh treatment but, to read it in literature shocked me and so I realize not living during the time in history that stories are written, it is so easy to confuse our moral certitude of today with the values and accepted morality of the times. For me an eyeopener, as in all history the story line of a novel is tied to the culture and morality of the times.   

Funny how I am not as shocked when I see blatant discrimination against women and the characterizing of cartoonish traits in women as I am when reading about abusive race relations - maybe because we are still dealing with the accepted and therefore, barely recognized abuses towards women - well this is not a philosophy discussion but it sure opened a can of worms in my head. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, Jonathan and what really got under my skin was the many, who I have admired and who think it was all a hoax - mostly because folks do not act as they expected with no realization this is a small town in another part of the country from where they live - folks do not go hysterical - they quietly do what must be done and they also do not think showing folks the wounded or dead is respectful - they will not allow their people to become bits of entertainment for the nation.

Those talking as if this is a hoax question why, being a gun state, no one used a gun to take him down without any concept of the gun culture that has always excluded guns in church. And then not finding some of the people whose names are mentioned online they think they are made up without realizing there are still many many folks who avoid not only the internet but any intrusion into their personal life and are not online, whitepage or otherwise.

And certainly a small town does not use or need sirens to let you know to get out of the way for any emergency vehicle - they know to pull over as soon as they see in their mirror an emergency vehicle if there is even another vehicle on the road. They also did not have a news team close by to be taking video - as soon as there was a realization something was wrong folks would quickly go to take care of the carnage not stop and take video.

This is when it comes home that not only do we have to stretch to learn about how people live in various parts of our own nation but between nations and how much we really do not know how to completely put ourselves in the various historical times we read - how people look at and carry out their simple day by day existence.

I dislike this new way of life of removing from your life anyone with whom you do not agree but to be this sinister, that  everything is a plot has gone too far. I cannot help wonder how much of the news feed both national and news groups that put web sites and have facebook sites really know what they are talking about - they no more have characterized the area that I know, much less now the media is describing folks who just did what was natural as if they are heroes and then making the shooter into a monster.  Again, making folks into a cartoon (unrealistically simplified and exaggeration) of who they are. Not sure today if I am more upset at what happened or how the town and those involved are being portrayed.

[bellamarie]

Barb, yes the abuse is a whole new can of worms opened, and not the place or time with this book.  But I will say, I often have asked myself, if women of those eras, or even today, who were/are comfortable and acceptable to their positions, how then do we judge if it is abuse, when they themselves do not see it as so?  Some women with stronger personalities would see situations as such, where milder more less expecting women would be appalled someone suggest their choice of living would be seen as abuse.  I consider myself a very strong individual, open minded, well educated, and well informed on abuse, especially where women are concerned, yet, I myself, see some women a disgrace in their thoughts and actions taking to the streets yelling, "We are nasty women!!"  Like you said,  "it is so easy to confuse our moral certitude of today with the values and accepted morality of the times."

Jonathan,  Yes, these are very sad times.  Vegas and now Texas shootings, killing yet more innocent people and injuring others.  Is this to be our norm?  I pray not.  I read he had a dishonorable discharge from the Air Force, for domestic violence against his wife and child, and was denied a permit to own a gun.  I know we'll hear more politicians ramp up gun control, but my take on this is.... evil will always find a way, no matter how many laws we pass.  Criminals do not abide by laws.  My heart breaks for all those injured, and the families of those whose lives were taken. 

Barb, we were posting at the same time.  Don't even get me started where the media is so irresponsible in their reporting today.  I am so sorry this has taken place in your state, and that this small town is being caricatured by the press.  It seems it's all about he "news" and nothing about the actual people anymore.   

[BarbStAubrey]

Can you believe - I never knew such a word even existed - Hebdomadal

There are a few others but late this afternoon - I've a training event I must attend - till later...

[CallieOK]

I finished the "Barchester Towers" we've been reading and began watching the You Tube episodes.   I was totally confused by the first episode (the 1982 series) because it focused on the 12 men living in the hospital while Mr. Harding was the warden - and Eleanor and John Bold weren't married..
After I saw that the series is based on both books, I checked out the e-book of "The Warden".  I've read the first couple of chapters and the YouTube series is now making sense.  "The Warden" is interesting background for what happens in "Barchester Towers".

[Jonathan]

Wow! What a book! Just the mention of  'can of worms', and 'seven deadly sins' reflects the complex socitey that Trollope writes about. And I would like to add 'the trials of the liberated woman.' It seems to me that in this book it's the men who take the abuse. It's the men who are seduced. Madeline is some spider.  There's something about her that's irresistably fascinating. Eleanor is lovable if only for her fondness for her little boy.

Trollope's book is not like all those other books, Bellamarie. His stories never end. There's always, 'to be continued'. And no doubt he could add more to their beginnings.

[PatH]

I was totally confused by the first episode (the 1982 series) because it focused on the 12 men living in the hospital while Mr. Harding was the warden - and Eleanor and John Bold weren't married..

Oh, yes, the 12 old men.  We shouldn't forget them.  Weren't they what the Hiram's Hospital bequest was supposed to be about?  Nobody seems to be thinking much about that as they spar over the next appointment.  It's looked at as a way of giving a living to a clergyman in the diocese, and as a way of gaining power in the organization.

Even there they aren't doing a good job.  If you want to provide for the clergy, the post should definitely go to Mr. Quiverful, who is trying to feed a family of 16 on three quarters of the income that lets the solo Mr. Harding live a quiet but modest life.  If you happen to remember the old men, you should figure out who would do the best job of seeing to all the little things that can make the difference in a person's life.  The only thing mentioned is that the choice must be willing to preach a sermon to them on Sundays.  Heaven forfend that they shouldn't be admonished once a week.

[BarbStAubrey]

Reviewing the notes, this is a list of books and authors referred to by Trollop in Barchester Towers - I attempted to group together some of the titles by the same author but it got away from me -

Several specific sections of the Bible are referenced that are King's James unless otherwise noted. Many of these books were used over and over as the source of phrases or references in Barchester Towers.

Using Jonathan's reference royal road to learning these books would be the royal road to what many reading Trollop in the mid-nineteenth century would have on their finger tips that allowed them to enjoy the wit of Trollop.

1.   Westward Ho -  Charles Kingsley
2.   Lycidas -  John Milton
3.   Helen of Troy
4.   A demonstration of the truth of the Christian religion, from the Latin of Socinius.
5.   Argus - Greek myth
6.   The Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy -  Laurence Sterne
7.   Judgement of Paris
8.   Homer’s - Iliad
9.   Thousand and One Nights
10.   The Book of Psalms - Bible
11.   New Testament - King James Bible
12.   The Eve of St. Agnes -  Keats
13.   The Caesars  - Thomas De Quincey
14.   Coningsby - Benjamin Disraeli
15.   Tancred - Benjamin Disraeli
16.   Roderick, The Last of the Goths - Robert Southey
17.   The Last of the Mohicans - James Fenimore Cooper
18.   Thoughts on the Ministerial Commission -  John Henry Newman
19.   The Frogs and the Mice or the Batrachomyomachia
20.   Luke, Matthew, Exodus - Bible
21.   The Mysteries of Udolpho - Ann Radcliffe
22.   Comedy of Errors - Shakespeare
23.   The Rivals - Richard Brinsley Sheridan
24.   Hamlet - Shakespeare
25.   Tartuffe - Moliere
26.   Little Dorrit - Dickens
27.   The Character of Credit: Personal Debt in English Culture - Margot Finn
28.   On the Plurality of Worlds - William Whewell
29.   Revelations - Roman Catholic Bible
30.   The Philosophy of Zeno
31.   Tom Jones - Henry Fielding
32.   The Anatomy of Melancholy - Robert Burton
33.   Essays - Michel de Montaigne
34.   Ivanhoe - Walter Scott
35.   Sophocles
36.   Gulliver’s Travels - Jonathan Swift
37.   Robinson Crusoe - Daniel Defoe
38.   Rape of the Lock - Alexander Pope
39.   The Faerie Queen - Edmund Spenser
40.   The Lay of the Last Minstrel - Sir Walter Scott
41.   Guy Mannering - Sir Walter Scott
42.   Oliver Twist - Dickens
43.   St. Paul’s Letter to Philemon
44.   Macbeth - Shakespeare
45.   King John - Shakespeare
46.   A Midsummer Night’s Dream - Shakespeare
47.   King Lear - Shakespeare
48.   Hippolytus - Euripides
49.   Phedre - Racine
50.   The Diary of C. Jeames de la Pluche, Esq - Wm Thackeray
51.   Aeneid - Virgil
52.   Nemesis - Greek Myth
53.   Charybdis - Greek Myth
54.   Pegasus - Greek Myth
55.   Odyssey - Homer
56.   Don Juan - Byron
57.   Troilus and Cressida - Shakespeare
58.   Troilus and Criseyde - Chaucer
59.   St Simeon Stylites - Tennyson
60.   Philip Van Artevelde - Henry Taylor
61.   The Fair Penitent - Nicholas Rowe
62.   The Victorian Church - Owen Chadwick
63.   The Legend of St. Denis
64.   The Cotter’s Saturday Night - Robert Burns
65.   Alexander’s Feast - John Dryden
66.   Henry IV - Shakespeare
67.   Romeo and Juliet - Shakespeare
68.   The Rape of Lucrece - Shakespeare
69.   Othello - Shakespeare
70.   The Taming of the Shrew – Shakespeare
71.   As You Like It - Shakespeare
72.   A Conjugal Lesson, Medea - Robert Brough
73.   Legend of Good Women - Chaucer
74.   The Clerk’s Tale - Chaucer
75.   The Sorrows of Young Werther - Goethe
76.   Maud - Tennyson
77.   Pickwick Papers - Dickens
78.   King Alisaunder - Anon. Middle English romance
79.   Dialogue of Proverbs - Thomas Heywood
80.   Paradise Lost - Milton
81.   Pilgrim’s Progress - John Bunyan
82.   First Book of Kings - Bible
83.   Paul and the Corinthians - Bible
84.   Irish Melodies - Thomas Moore
85.   She Stoops to Conquer - Oliver Goldsmith
86.   Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard - Thomas Gray
87.   Sir Charles Grandison - Samuel Richardson
88.   The Gondoliers - W. S. Gilbert (Gilbert and Sullivan)
89.   The Busybody - Susanna Centlivre
90.   Alexandre Dumas - Eugene Sue
91.   Thirty-Nine Articles - John Sumner
92.   Doctor Faustus - Christopher Marlowe

[PatH]

Wow, Barb, that's quite a list.  Thanks for keeping track.  Not counting the many references to Greek myths and the Bible, I'm surprised to see I've read 30 of them.  But I sure didn't catch all the references.

[bellamarie]

In Chapter 45 we really do see the inner workings of a family, scrambling to survive their own demise.  I don't think anyone in the Stanhope family is evil, they just all seem to be a bit selfish and self centered.  Charlotte, thought in persuading Bertie to propose to Eleanor it would solve his financial problems, yet she never considered Eleanor's feelings.  The father is abhorred at Bertie's carefree, careless lifestyle, but then is confronted with this statement from Charlotte:

And then she added, getting up and whispering into his ear, "Is he only to blame?  Think of that.  We have made our own bed, and, such as it is, we must lie on it.  It is no use for us to quarrel among ourselves,"

Bertie is being reamed out by his father, yet sits drawing caricatures of the women of Barchester, as if he has no care in the world, while Charlotte is trying desperately to defend him.  The one who surprised me the most in this family is Signora Madeline Neroni, telling Eleanor how much Mr. Arabin loves her. 

"Well, then, I will ask you one more singular still," said Madeline Neroni, raising herself on her elbow and turning her own face full upon her companion's.  "Do you love him, love him with all your heart and soul, with all the love your bosom can feel?  For I can tell you that he loves you, adores you, worships you, thinks of you and nothing else, is now thinking of you as he attempts to write his sermon for next Sunday's preaching.  What would I not give to be loved in such a way by such a man, that is, if I were an object fit for any man to love!"

"What I tell you is God's own truth; and it is for you to use it as may be best for you own happiness.  But you must not betray me.  He knows nothing of this.  He knows nothing of my knowing his inmost heart.  He is simple as a child in these matters.  He told me his secret in a thousand ways because he could not dissemble, but he does not dream that he has told it.  You know it now, and I advise you to use it."

"And remember," continued the signora, "he is not like other men.  You must not expect him to come to you with vows and oaths and pretty presents, to kneel at your feet, and kiss your shoe-strings.  If you want that, there are plenty to do it, but he won't be one of them."  "With him, yea will stand for yea, and nay for nay.  Though his heart should break for it, the woman who shall reject him once will have rejected him once and for all.  Remember that.  And now, Mrs. Bold, I will not keep you, for you are fluttered.  I partly guess what use you will make of what I have said to you.  If ever you are a happy wife in that man's house, we shall be far away, but I shall expect you to write me one line to say that you  have forgiven the sins of the family."

Yes, as complex the Stanhope family seems, it appears they all do sincerely care about each other.   I so loved this chapter.

[BarbStAubrey]

Pat it was not so much keeping track as it was reviewing the notes that were the annotations to the book, page by page - extracting from those notes the books and authors that were included in the paragraphs that explained the verbiage in Trollop's Barchester Towers.

Yes Bellamarie, explaining the inner dynamics of the Stanhopes was well summed up in chapter 45 wasn't it - actually we heard more about the father in chapter 45 than we had in the entire story - he would be referenced in their conversations or present during a 'do' but nothing about a 'reader to character' bit where we the reader saw first hand his actions.

These last chapters were really page turners - If interrupted I could not wait to get back to the story to see what was happening next where as, the earlier part of the book was nice and the language used was riveting however, I was not glued to the story to find out what next.

As to Bertie drawing, I thought how sad and how we still do that to others - rather than recognizing their true talent and giving them confidence to pursue their talent we are more concerned they live up to the social expectations or the parents expectations of how to live.

There is the dichotomy though within Bertie - most artists unless of independent means are not only depending on family members for sustenance living but are willing to live in garrets which is what Bertie is taking on by choosing to go back to Italy. However, he likes his comforts so that he is not focused with all his energy into his art. What he needs is a manager or an agent who will get his work into the public eye.

Amazing that Madeline does not take on that task - but then we would not have a story plus she seems to be so busy keeping herself relevant. Folks who have been shamed in their intimate relations do seem to focus on rebuilding and never accepting that they have done enough to rebuild. With Madeline's handicap she is left with a daily reminder of her shame.   

Not sure what chapter but I was fascinated with the idea that folks would rewrite a story into a comedy or take a comedy and write it into a drama as a fun activity - made sense remembering what life was like before TV much less the internet. But it also explained how folks remembered not only the plot of a story but the characters by name and how they could have at their finger tips quotes from the story - I remember as a young housewife looking forward to the monthly magazines that I subscribed to that always included chapters of an ongoing story plus a couple of short stories. While my babies napped I would gobble up those stories and some I read more than once - With one vehicle, going to the library was not easy plus there were no free libraries - it was usually ten cents a book for a week and reading a book within the week while caring for babies was seldom possible so, for a few years those magazines were my reading material and while washing and sweeping etc. I carried in my head my picture of those stories.

Interesting, maybe there is something to be said for reading material that is a bit more difficult to obtain - we make more out of what we do read so that within a few years more than the plot is half remembered. Today we seldom quote characters from books when we write or chat with each other.  Thinking on it, I must say, there are many whose intimacy with the Bible is so great they can quote chapter and verse and quote they do from the Bible - equally or more folks today do not value this practice - talk about bullying - they sure like to puff up their superiority and put down those quoting from the Bible.

This idea though of rewriting a story as a comedy has me by the tail - that means you must have a knowledge of how to write comedy - that is quite an exercise hmmm   

[BarbStAubrey]

What did y'all think of Slope sliding into a cushy situation in London with everything he could not attain in Barchester - reminded me how even today the big, usually liberal city is considered by those who live in the hinterland to be the den of iniquity.  As soon as  attend anything just outside Austin the disparagement is not hidden - ah so... If Slope is on the tongues of any in Barchester I can hear it now - Slope and London deserve each other...   

[bellamarie]

Why do I feel Bertie went off to Italy and would never really take his his artistry serious?  He just seems to want to be as they say, "Fancy foot, and carefree."  He really had no choice but to leave, since the father is throwing him out of his house.  Lucky for him Charlotte was able to convince the father to fund him monthly.  Maybe Neroni did not take on promoting Bertie because she could very well see he would never live up to his talent.  I've seen many a talented person not succeed, but for they would not put the needed work into it.  I noticed Trollope did not feel the need to let us know if Bertie became successful in Italy.  Hate to be a Debbie downer, but my guess, is he didn't.

Interesting point about reading.... one thing is for certain, I am not willing to quote from the Bible, unless I can attach the scripture book and verse which means I remember "who" wrote it.  Not so with many of my books I have read.

[Jonathan]

But did Barchester deserve Slope, from London, and the Stanhopes from Italy? Wasn't it Mr. Slope's doing that the Stanhopes were recalled?

Such dazzling posts. And they only confirm what a unique book we've been discussing. Do those old men at Hiram's need a sermon? Wasn't Mr. Harding wiser in playing his violincello for them? And that great quote from the Madeline/Eleanor tete-a-tete: 'He knows nothing of my knowing his inmost heart.' She's a fascinating character, so are they all. But this bit of information was special. I've started reading the biography of Trollope's mother, also a writer of note, and here's something about her style:

'Her book would be pervaded by a woman's spirit, for she believed that the study of manners, "and the minutiae of which it is composed, suits better the minute  and lynx-like optics of the female...." ' Something inherited from his mother, obviously.

What a stunning list of references, Barb. I was well along in scanning it and thought...you've missed 'she stoops to conquer', (Goldsmith), worked casually into his story by the author...but there it is, near the bottom. We certainly have travelled a highway of literary magnificence.

[Jonathan]

Just read your post, Bellamarie. Bertie, for me, is the bee who goes from flower to flower, sampling everything, trying to be everything, described so well in an early chapter.

[bellamarie]

Jonathan, how telling of Trollope's mother, and how he was able to use her to help him with such great writing for women voices.  He did a fine job in showing the strengths of each woman, yet her gentle and kind side as well.  I think I loved the little sit down between Madeline and Eleanor more than ever!  Madeline has great experience in what a man thinks, she plays with every man's mind that comes in her presence.  They are like putty in her hands, but, our dear innocent Mr. Arabin, reveals more by his actions than he knows, and only someone as cunning and perceptive as Madeline would see all that she sees. 

What a perfect line to create! Bravo to our author! 

"He told me his secret in a thousand ways because he could not dissemble, but he does not dream that he has told it."

Then these words just hit home for me......Madeline is revealing more of herself, but she does not dream that she has told it.

For I can tell you that he loves you, adores you, worships you, thinks of you and nothing else, is now thinking of you as he attempts to write his sermon for next Sunday's preaching.  What would I not give to be loved in such a way by such a man, that is, if I were an object fit for any man to love!"

Signora Neroni, longs to be loved as Mr. Arabin loves Eleanor, instead of being jealous, she graciously cautions Eleanor not to play games and have greater expectations from the innocent Mr. Arabin, or she may lose him. 

Again I have to say......Bravo!, to our author, for excellent creation of one woman's dreams, to another woman's reality.

[bellamarie]

So here we are at the end of our novel, and the end of our discussion, and what better way to conclude than with our brilliant author's own words:

The end of a novel, like the end of a children's dinner party, must be made up of sweetmeats and sugar-plums.

And what better way to end a novel then to have a wedding! 

"Wilt thous have this woman to thy wedded wife," and "wilt thou have this man to thy wedded husband, to live together according to God's ordinance?"  Mr. Arabin and Eleanor each answered, "I will."

The Stanhope's have all moved back to Como. Mr. Slope lives on Baker Street and has a church in the vicinity of Red Road a famed eloquent preacher and pious clergyman in that part of the metropolis. The Archdeacon and Mrs. Grantly are happier than ever to have Mr. Arabin the new Dean, as their brother in law, passing out lavish gifts to everyone.  Mr. Harding is still precentor of Barchestor and still pastor of the little church of St. Cuthbert's.   As for the twelve old men, they are now five with loyalty to Mr. Harding, but willing to accept the new warden.  The Bishop and Mrs. Proudie are happy with giving a dinner party or two yearly.  The Quiverful's are settled into their new home, and all is well with the world in Barchester.

[bellamarie]

Trollope sure has a way with words, I simply loved these paragraphs:

Chapter XLIX

He, however, soon relieved her from her embarrassment. He came up to her, and taking both her hands in his, he said, “So, Eleanor, you and I are to be man and wife. Is it so.?”

She looked up into his face, and her lips formed themselves into a single syllable. She uttered no sound, but he could read the affirmative plainly in her face.

“It is a great trust,” said he, “a very great trust.”

“It is — it is,” said Eleanor, not exactly taking what he had said in the sense that he had meant. “It is a very, very great trust, and I will do my utmost to deserve it.”

“And I also will do my utmost to deserve it,” said Mr. Arabin very solemnly. And then, winding his arm round her waist, he stood there gazing at the fire, and she, with her head leaning on his shoulder, stood by him, well satisfied with her position. They neither of them spoke, or found any want of speaking. All that was needful for them to say had been said. The yea, yea, had been spoken by Eleanor in her own way — and that way had been perfectly satisfactory to Mr. Arabin.

And now it remained to them each to enjoy the assurance of the other’s love. And how great that luxury is! How far it surpasses any other pleasure which God has allowed to his creatures! And to a woman’s heart how doubly delightful!

When the ivy has found its tower, when the delicate creeper has found its strong wall, we know how the parasite plants grow and prosper. They were not created to stretch forth their branches alone and endure without protection the summer’s sun and the winter’s storm. Alone they but spread themselves on the ground and cower unseen in the dingy shade. But when they have found their firm supporters, how wonderful is their beauty; how all-pervading and victorious! What is the turret without its ivy, or the high garden wall without the jasmine which gives it its beauty and fragrance? The hedge without the honeysuckle is but a hedge.

There is a feeling still half-existing, but now half-conquered by the force of human nature, that a woman should be ashamed of her love till the husband’s right to her compels her to acknowledge it. We would fain preach a different doctrine. A woman should glory in her love, but on that account let her take the more care that it be such as to justify her glory.

Eleanor did glory in hers, and she felt, and had cause to feel, that it deserved to be held as glorious. She could have stood there for hours with his arm round her, had fate and Mr. Thorne permitted it. Each moment she crept nearer to his bosom and felt more and more certain that there was her home. What now to her was the archdeacon’s arrogance, her sister’s coldness, or her dear father’s weakness? What need she care for the duplicity of such friends as Charlotte Stanhope? She had found the strong shield that should guard her from all wrongs, the trusty pilot that should henceforward guide her through the shoals and rocks. She would give up the heavy burden of her independence and once more assume the position of a woman and the duties of a trusting and loving wife.

And he, too, stood there fully satisfied with his place. They were both looking intently on the fire, as though they could read there their future fate, till at last Eleanor turned her face towards his. “How sad you are,” she said, smiling; and indeed his face was, if not sad, at least serious. “How sad you are, love!”

“Sad,” said he, looking down at her; “no, certainly not sad.” Her sweet, loving eyes were turned towards him, and she smiled softly as he answered her. The temptation was too strong even for the demure propriety of Mr. Arabin, and bending over her, he pressed his lips to hers.

I sense our author is a bit of a romantic at heart.

[BarbStAubrey]

Love the way you summed it up Bellamarie - perfect - just perfect - what really caught my attention was, with all the words Trollop uses to tell his story, two of his main characters at the apex of their storyline have only a few words - lots of understanding silence between them with the actual proposing almost a marginal addition to what was understood by each from other sources. No snap, crackle and pop between these two. Perfect imagery having them gaze into the warming and comforting fire.   

Reading this reminded me of the themes in Steinbeck's Winter of Our Discontent Was this Barchester's Summer of their Discontent with Slope setting fire to the community ship.

In one breath I'm so enamored with Trollop's writing that I'd like to read another this winter but in the other breath I am also fascinated with the list of books Trollop referenced - some of the writers and books I have never heard of and others have been on my reading list for years. Where I have read much of Shakespeare, I never read him to actually remember and use some of the dialogue and yet, most consider him the greatest word master. The Busybody sounds like a fun read and what is this The Diary of C. Jeames de la Pluche, Esq by Thackeray all about. Then Jonathan brings to our attention She Stoops to Conquer by Oliver Goldsmith which must be another addition to my 'to-be-read' pile.

Which by the way, She Stoops to Conquer and the Rivals and Tartuffe are all available as movies on DVD - the wonderful Hal Holbrook does Tartuffe.

Well we did it! - Some of us floated in and out during our conversation and the faithful few saw it through - Thanks to everyone, we did have a fine discussion - After this read it will be difficult to see political maneuvering without seeing the humor - When it comes down to it no matter what the give and take and ego's bruised or otherwise, life goes on and it appears mankind has a similar drive to satisfy their needs, wants, and concept of propriety along with many who cannot leave well enough alone and push to change others to their liking regardless, the profession, the time in history, their power, their wealth or their lack of wealth. 

Officially we are open through tomorrow, Saturday, November 11 - We will leave it open for comments through Monday and then our, really wonderful discussion, will be archived. 

[Jonathan]

Thanks to all who participated. You've been wonderful company. Must it end? The last few posts are overwhelming. Such glorious 'sweetmeats and sugar-plums' represented in your quotes, Bellamarie. 

'She had found the strong shield that should guard her from all wrongs, the trusty pilot that should henceforward guide her through the shoals and rocks. She would give up the heavy burden of her independence and once more assume the position of a woman and the duties of a trusting and loving wife.'

It can't get any more romantic than that. Romance, the most extravagent, most luxurious of all human emotions. And happening to the two most level-headed characters in the book. My head is spinning. So familiar. But all, so long ago. A world left behind, that would leave a younger generation laughing.

Barb, your list of literary works mentioned in the book, leaves me smacking my reading lips. From Westward Ho to Dr Faustus. I'm going to keep it handy for inspiration. And reference, for something to discuss. How about Paul's Letters to the Corinthians? Burton's Melancholy is a vast odyssey through human experience. And not at all melancholy.

Your post #194 quotes Victoria Glendinning as saying: 'Trollope was capable of anything with a pen in his hand.' I would like to quote her, from her biography of Trollope:

'I have never been so happy researching and writing any book so much as this one....If even part of my pleasure is conveyed to the reader, and if she or he is influenced thereby to read or reread Trollope's work, I shall be well satisfied.'

[bellamarie]

Oh Jonathan, you are so right in saying, "A world left behind, that would leave a younger generation laughing."
Sadly, I fear this generation has no clue to the beautiful feeling of simple romance.  They rush into relationships before even knowing a person's name, and the next morning wake up not remembering their face.  I pity them, because, I, like you, know and have experienced the love Mr. Arabin and Eleanor have, and I can't ever imagine never having it. 

Barb, I too loved the fire scene, with so little words spoken. The mouth need not speak, when the heart has so much more to say.

I will have to keep both of your lists of books to add to my TBR pile.  After reading these last chapters, I suspect I may have the urge to give Trollope another try.  Victoria Glendinning can rest assured, she completed her mission with this reader, and she should be well satisfied.

Thank you Barb for leading this discussion, as always you were full of insight, and brought so much information to us.  We are ending just in time for you to have more time to work on your Christmas gifts for your grandchildren, which reminds me, I need to get busy on making stencil tee shirts, my new found craft, for my grands for Christmas gifts.

Jonathan, I am so happy you were here with us reading this story.  Your enthusiasm kept me plugging through ,when I could easily have given up.  I am so glad I did not, because now I have one more favorite fictitious couple, to add to my list of favorites.

To all of you who dropped in, it was nice to hear from you.  It turned out to be a wonderful book, and I hope you all finish it, if you have not already done so.  I can say, the video helped me put a face to the characters, but it does not do justice for the actual book. 

Since many of our characters left for Italy, I will end with.........  Ciao for now! 

[PatH]

Well, I've caught up just in time to say goodbye.

Bellamarie:

I sense our author is a bit of a romantic at heart.

Yes, he gives us a fine romantic finish, plus a lot of wonderful romantic slapstick in the gardens of Ullathorne as a preliminary.  Slope presumes too much and gets his ears boxed, Bertie makes a non-proposal, and everyone leaves the party frustrated.

The couple will be happy; in addition to their love, they have the same ideals and standards, and the same understated way of expressing their emotions, plus enough money to make life secure.

But look at Trollope's super-Victorian attitude toward women.  They are the clinging vine, unable to flourish alone, needing the strength of a man to twine around.  (To be fair, he feels the man is incomplete without the woman too, but he is always the strength.)  Life isn't always that neat, and a woman who can't call on considerable strength of her own is in trouble when disasters strike.

[PatH]

Mr. Harding is still the one with the strongest moral compass.  He insists on turning down the deanship merely because he feels himself unfit.

"Mr. Harding seemed to have a foolish idea, not only that there were new duties to do, but that no one should accept the place who was not himself prepared to do them"  (Grantly's thoughts).  Goodness, how foolish!

And although it's painful for him to do, he accompanies Mr. Quiverful on his first day as Warden, praises him to the old men, and does what he can to get the new Warden off to a good start.

[bellamarie]

PatH. 

But look at Trollope's super-Victorian attitude toward women.  They are the clinging vine, unable to flourish alone, needing the strength of a man to twine around.

Hmmmm..... I'm not so sure I was the women in this story as you describe.  If anything I saw them stronger than the man, and willing to stand and fight for not only what they wanted, but what they believed in.  The mere fact our sweet little Eleanor boxed Bertie's ears showed she did not need any man to cling to let alone propose to her.  She was very content with her baby and father.  Mrs. Proudie, well, let's just say she will be clinging to no man, if anything she has the poor Bishop groveling in the bedroom.  Charlotte as meek as she seemed, she too, not only stood up to her father, but took charge of Bertie's situation.  Signora Neroni could never be considered weak or clingy, if anything she turned men into mush.  She could have had many a man at her beck and call, but was comfortable remaining single even with her handicap.  The dear old Mrs. Quiverful,  full of piss and vinegar bursting into the Bishop's house demanding Mrs. Proudie to stand by her promise to give her husband the warden position.  If anything I saw strong spirited women, much like Jane Austen's women.  Ahead of their times.... I sense Trollope's mother was a strong image in his life and he was able to give each woman in this story strength, without jeopardizing their gentleness as well.

I think the vine paragraph was to show how when two are meant to be, they, together will only flourish and strengthen each other, and beauty shall become of it, this was Trollope, the romantic painter, creating a masterpiece with the strokes of his pen, rather paintbrush and palette:

When the ivy has found its tower, when the delicate creeper has found its strong wall, we know how the parasite plants grow and prosper. They were not created to stretch forth their branches alone and endure without protection the summer’s sun and the winter’s storm. Alone they but spread themselves on the ground and cower unseen in the dingy shade. But when they have found their firm supporters, how wonderful is their beauty; how all-pervading and victorious! What is the turret without its ivy, or the high garden wall without the jasmine which gives it its beauty and fragrance? The hedge without the honeysuckle is but a hedge.

[PatH]

For that matter, Eleanor has been running her own house capably for the two years since her husband died, including having a baby, and maybe this is lonely, but she's coping perfectly well.

[PatH]

I wonder how Bertie coped?  After his non-proposal, it's stated that Eleanor didn't see him again for many years, so he didn't completely come to grief.

[Jonathan]

Bertie, I'm sure, is off to explore and conquer new worlds and always needing support.

Pat and Bellamarie, your exchange of views is priceless. No doubt the roles played by the men and women in the book were ardently discussed by Trollope's readers. And not least a line such as:

'She would give up the heavy burden of her independence and once more assume the position of a woman and the duties of a trusting and loving wife.' Quoted earlier by Bellamarie.

Women give up their independance? Women call the shots in this tale, along with the editor of The Jupiter. He hounded Mr Harding out of his position as Warden and would do it again if Mr Harding were made Dean. Something Mr Harding dreaded. What Mr H needed was a wife.

Hasn't the traditional marriage vow gone out the window long ago?

[bellamarie]

I too suspect Bertie is off jutting around Italy, without a care in the world.  He did not seem the least bit interested in a relationship with any woman, and only proposed to Eleanor because Charlotte insisted, to get him out of debt.

Some may see a woman losing her independence once she marries, but I see women gaining even more power, with her arm reaching into whatever position her husband holds.  Show me one woman who does not meddle in her husband's affairs.  What is that saying..... 

Behind every successful man, you will find a strong woman.

Yes, Jonathan, I think there is no "traditional" wedding vow to be found.  As a matter of fact, couples aren't even interested in getting married as much today, since living together is socially acceptable.

I am so glad I grew up in the baby boomer era.

[BarbStAubrey]

Interesting dialogue - the issue of women - I see strength but controlled within the framework of propriety -

For readers then as now, it was a surprise to see the kindness of Madeline, who was depicted as a rather wanton woman, who, lord forbid, attracted men. No hanky panky that of course was assured in the minds of most readers by her permanent injury; but, just the fact she flirted and she could read people, which was OK as long as it was not the men, the Signora fits the Classic femme fatale, considered dangerous. To this day some women see making themselves attractive with hair products and makeup dangerously close to appearing as if they would be considered projecting a femme fatale image. 

Then we have the widow of independent means, who, although she lives alone, makes her decisions with her father's approval. There also appears to be an expectation that since she does not have a big brother and her father is considered  too humble, other men should become her advisor and treat her as such so that like a teenager she rebels - which is the basis of the misunderstanding as like the rebelling teen she asserts her views that supports the story line of war between the clergy. Then to be proper she cannot declare her love or lack of love - to declare her love she must be spoken to first and she is defined then as a vine - regardless clinging or flowering or thorny, still a vine attached to a man. Another traditional caricature for a woman where the doors of commerce and business are closed to her if she is to be a proper woman and loving, caring mother among the upper middle class.

And then how often we saw strong women like Mrs. Proudie characterized as the joke, with her appearance being overbearing and anything but attractive - even her name in Trollop's story is used to make a comment about someone stepping out of bounds - Yes, she is strong and many women were strong but even the TV series Slander about folks in the White House today, have the male President advising the male Attorney General that he should not despair because in fact he is actually attracted to strong women who can upset the apple cart and they do... over the retiring and acceptable wife who wears a hairband.

All these caricature roles for women are so ingrained in stories and are the stuff of comedy that we have taken them for granted - I always think if we reverse the role and see how it works for a man than we have a better idea of what is going on.

However, like y'all I do see the strength and power of the women in this story within their prescribed classic roles. Through out history we have women who stepped out of their socially accepted roles and made a difference as well as, many a women who held a family together during all sorts of catastrophes or abasement.

I'm remembering having married and my early motherhood roles in the 50s and how shocked I was to be treated and expected to act in ways that were far from my expectations based on my education - no one prepared me for being a second class citizen where I could not buy anything over $100 - remember the shock and embarrassment shopping for the holidays and the grocery bill was over 2 times the usual - before they would take my check they had to call my husband. There was no credit allowed for a woman and no legal document required my signature - in Texas since so many men sold their RE to pay off a gambling debt, women were brought into a private room to under oath explain they knew about and were OK with the sale of their home and that only came to be the way of things after WWII.

Most parties and after dinner conversation quickly became the guys in the living room and the gals in the kitchen since we were not supposed to understand politics or business or finance or sports - until just the last 10 or 15 years, over and over we helped widows sell their homes and had to accompany them to get the legal documents and talk to their bank since they had no idea how their finances worked.

To me it was a saving grace that during the nineteenth century at least girls were not educated side by side with the boys - I never understood how learning math and being good at it and learning History and Latin and Economics and English lit the same as the boys we were supposed to all of a sudden know how to maintain a house and successfully develop, without an annual interview, with no boss unless we wanted to humiliate ourselves and consider our husband our boss, that some unfortunately, like it or not, their husbands did take on that role - however, on our own with no guidance and with the exact same education as the men, know how to keep, a house, the health and welfare of the family, have babies etc etc. while throwing out the window all that we learned in school. Every professional that I can remember simply patted women on the head.

Then, to add injury to insult, in the 70s when women started to carve a place for themselves in the workplace they successfully dumb down the curriculum and throw out most of classical learning - I guess to meet the conceived idea that women were not up to the kind of education that was normal before the 60s and 70s. All we have to do is look at an old McGuffey or Hillard Reader and see what was normal in 3rd grade is not even taught till you are in 7th or 8th grade today and what was normal in the 6th grade is maybe, maybe taught in high school.

Yes, I am still growling at this phenomenon of classifying women as magical learners of Home Ec. and not just the welfare of their children but to be as if trained psychologists for children. Some families are lucky that they escape the bullying etc. that can destroy a child or some of the other family catastrophes that are so disruptive that children fitting into society is no longer easy.

To be as Eleanore was not universal in that, many a young widow turned to her father for guidance and to obtain credit to buy a vehicle much less a house into the 1970s when so much changed for women. And then, to this day many women cannot change a tire or fix a sticky window or change out a dryer without hiring a handyman or mechanic to do it for them. They were not included in industrial ed. classes.

As to Charlotte, what could be more traditional than the idea of women as the peacemakers - so much so, that folks are fooled into thinking if they have women in D.C. there will be no wars - the realization, that women are as influenced to vote for war or support political war between nations as are the men, is still not understood by those who are caught in the traditional views of women.

The 70s brought a new culture for women that yes, took away the romanticism of earlier times when a gallant gentleman took care of the women and women played or were dumb to what really powers society - if she showed her strength or power she became a well worn caricature, fit for the silent movies or, if she accomplished something significant she was no longer among the women washing up after dinner - instead, her name was in the newspaper or on a building - she traded in casual friendship among women to be included among the very few who rubbed shoulders with the men.

Yes, I do see Trollop elevating the power of each of these women but within the boundary of preconceived characterizations that probably followed the norm but also, increased the acceptance of the traditional views about women.

[bellamarie]

I was a 70's woman, and loved it!  We still could enjoy the romantics, and believe me that was the era of tons of romantic comedies, but we could also assert out independence.  I was not into the Gloria Steinem feminists movement, I like being a woman, and do not need to measure my worth up next to a man. 

Great discussion! 

My hubby has all my Christmas boxes in the kitchen, so it's deck the halls with boughs of holly for me today!   

[BarbStAubrey]

Goodness Pat you really had us do a last round up that struck at the core of our thinking - we all have our opinion on the status of women don't we - Bellamaire, you and Jonathan's thoughts are right there on the progression or lack of, for women - how, by gaining independence we have lost much that was valued and now the difficulty of keeping things like romance alive when tradition is no longer the glue.

This is one of those books that slowly brings us face to face with how we view change on many fronts - I'm wondering how a few months from now we will look at some issue of change. This story helps us realize throughout history one of the big tug's of war socially and therefore politically is change. The other biggie the story brings to our attention is noting that politics plays in every institution.

Jane will be archiving the discussion sometime this afternoon or this evening - just in time for any last minute thoughts - Looks like we read and discussed more of a winner than we realized as what appeared to be a benign gossip column in book form when we started turned out to be a far more in-depth reach into change.

I love it Bellamarie - I too have been looking forward to the Christmas season - no big discussion this year if November is too early to start - the music is on - have fun decking your halls

[PatH]

Judging from my own life and that of my children, there's still plenty of romance around, but a lot of stereotypes are gone, and you have to figure out your own assumptions.  Anyway, I'm glad I don't have to fit in the mold of a nineteenth century woman; it would be a poor fit.

[PatH]

To end with a really trivial point: throughout the book there are references to the bishop's apron, and it's sometimes used as a symbol for the office ("he expects to acquire a wife first, and the apron will come").  It turns out this isn't the sort of thing we think of, that you might use when cooking, it's a somber knee-length black tunic.

[BarbStAubrey]

haha thanks Pat for the explanation of the Bishop's apron - maybe those of us who still wear an apron in the kitchen are symbolically letting folks know the Kitchen is our domain and we wear the apron to prove it... 

[PatH]