Author Topic: Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~  (Read 51834 times)

Jonathan

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #200 on: February 28, 2018, 09:56:41 PM »
'From the top of a parapet about to jump, he is now buzzing like a bee in flight of honey.  He seems to have taken to working and being called Comrade, which is a term used for all people of all status.  I would like to think the Count's, inner life has taken a turn.'

You're so right, Bellamarie. The revolution  has put some fun into  his life, like learning to sew and midnight rendezvous, and feeling Napoleonic when he's inspecting table settings as head waiter. To say nothing of comradeship and purpose. Let's keep our fingers crossed. His last words as he turned away from the parapet were: 'I'll be back.'

I'm finding more humor all the time. Mostly in the narrative style. Cozy little storyteller, isn't he? Or, I should say, all three of them. I've identified that many. He seems to be writing under some kind of compulsion. Very amusing.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #201 on: February 28, 2018, 10:23:56 PM »
Ah the fortunes of life - is it an age thing I wonder - there is the upswing or high tide and then the tide is out - Nina on the upswing and Anna, as the Count are heading for or are at low tide - I wonder why the Count becomes a working member of the hotel staff - did he run out of hidden gold coins, did his Greek Money Changer leave Moscow or did the Count just decide to join the going "Comrade" game in town. Appears secret bits of saffron keeps him still in an honorable and noble position white jacket or not.

I wonder if most who approach retirement and who had reached top positions in an organization feel nostalgic for their early years while watching younger personal, who will sit in their seats make a beeline for the door saying they are expected elsewhere. Do they emotionally struggle knowing they too have fallen from grace, knowing their beauty, good looks, influence, fame and privilege was borrowed by a corporation building success so that now, among their peers , they greet adulation with caution, ambition with sympathy, and condescension with an inward smile.

How many of us hang on to our image that was attained and appropriate during our high tide years and gradually, we let go as the tide goes out.

The Count is an example of how we most likely will not find or retain the class or type of work we engaged in during our high tide years therefore, to have the courage to make the most of a job without near the prestige in order to have some relevance, some meaning in our life. He certainly knows how to enjoy the pleasures of the simple, from the self-made breakfast to the choice of thread after eagerly learning the encyclopedia of stitches. All this as compared to his dear friend Mishka, who will cherish the last of his days pining for his lost love.

The second act is being played out for both Anna and the Count, who remain proud and unbent as they become part of the Confederacy of the Humbled.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #202 on: February 28, 2018, 10:31:25 PM »
Karen, am I right in thinking that we are reading through the chapter Adjustments, and stopping before Ascending, Alighting?  An action-packed section.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #203 on: February 28, 2018, 10:32:49 PM »
Thought long and hard and yes, I am prepared for differing outlooks - to me effect from cause has nothing to do with liking the Count - the story as told has to do with Revenge, 'Getting Even' and had it stopped at only getting even I would have seen it as a tit-for-tat or even karma. However, I saw a passion for revenge so calculating and overwhelming, and planned, so the act of revenge affected other innocent bystanders.

There was a huge disrespect for the wine growers whose work was dismissed as well as, taking joy from any future diners whose meal was made less than. - And greater, to humiliate and mistreat a women as in the earlier scene is unforgivable. Neither the servant nor Helena did anything and yet, they were damaged. I guess it would be called collateral damage but not even that, since the damage itself was using others to get even with the Count.

Just the logic about revenge is twisted, conflicted, and dangerous but these two instances were far more than one-on-one getting even. Yes, revenge is a primitive, destructive, and a violent response to anger, injury, or humiliation. It is a misguided attempt to transform shame into pride. However, defending one's honor with reprisal I can not see as fate or cause and effect - I see it as acting in passion without connecting to the one attribute we have as humans - the ability to think and control our behavior.

Yes, the Count humiliated his beloved sister's friend, a fellow officer, of the noble class who did not show noble character, and yes, the Count suggesting a wine, where innocent enough, made the waiter feel inadequate but the responses by both were over the top beyond tit-for-tat humiliation.

Unfortunately, the magnitude gap—the pain inflicted was far more intense than that of the original offense. We know losses cannot be restored or undone, and we know retaliation does not provide reparations.  Both instances saw, not 'getting even' but vengeance, pursuing ‘harm to others’ in retaliation for the wrong ‘they felt’ the Count caused.

"Avenging a wrong is pursing revenge to punish those who you hold responsible for a loss to yourself, or someone else you respect."

Another, softer quote “An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and the whole world would soon be blind and toothless.” ~ Mahatma Gandhi - The Count seemed to react closer to this quotes rather than set a course for further destruction.

It pains me that the word Karma is currently used to mean a natural push back that happens as a result of earlier collective behavior, good or bad. I think the concept needs serious revision in light of the 'Me To' movement - little girls are not receiving their just deserts. Therefore, it is a response I think we in the west or maybe even the philosophy of the east needs to re-visit.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Mkaren557

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #204 on: March 01, 2018, 10:06:15 AM »
Pat,  yes, read through Adjustments. 

BarbStAubrey

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #205 on: March 01, 2018, 11:43:40 AM »
For a man under house arrest he is living a full life - Now he plays 'uncle' to Sophie - something tells me he and Sophie will be in each other's company for far more than a couple of months.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #206 on: March 02, 2018, 08:47:27 AM »
This is an action-packed section, and also has a lot of humor, and scenes with amusing surprise twists.

It starts with a normal morning for the Count, but then, after a passage about the history of these days, the Count walks through the doors of the kitchen, carrying a white jacket over his arm.  He has become a hotel employee!

We aren't told how this happened--whether he did it voluntarily or whether the political climate demanded that every comrade do useful work, but it's the perfect place for him.  He's a genius at seating plans, food and wine pairings, and how everything about a dinner should function.  And he seems to enjoy it.

Mkaren557

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #207 on: March 02, 2018, 09:30:22 AM »
I think it's those bees again.  They work their whole life producing honey; the Count is producing nothing.  So, the day after the roof, he goes to Andrey, first in line when the door opened.  The one skill he has talked about is his ability to place people at tables which he learned at his Grandmother's dinner parties.  It is implied that he he asked Andrey to put him to work in the Boyarsky.  I don't think he has ever worked in his life, but a "life of leisure" is no longer fulfilling to him.

bellamarie

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #208 on: March 02, 2018, 10:50:56 AM »
Yes, this section is going at a fast pace.  The Count seems to be contented, working, sewing, and seeing Anna once again.  And what do you suppose will come of this new character Colonel Osip Ivanovich and the Count?  Interesting conversation they have:

pg. 211-12  "You would like to learn French and English?"  Osip raised his glass in confirmation.  "Yes, sir.  But I don't simply want to learn the languages.  i would like to understand those who speak them.  And most especially, I would like to understand their privileged classes__for that's who remains at the helm.  I would like to understand how they view the world; what they are likely to count as a moral imperative; what they would be prone to value and what to disdain.  It's a matter of developing certain diplomatic skills, if you will.  But for a man in my position, it is best to foster one's skills discreetly."  "How do you propose that I help?"  "Simple.  Dine with me once a month in this very room.  Speak with me in French and English.  Share with me your impressions of Western societies.  And in exchange. . . "  Glebnikov let his sentence trail off, not to imply the paucity of what he could do for the Count, but rather to suggest the abundance.  But the Count raised a hand to stay any talk of exchanges.  "If you are a customer of the Boyarksy, Osip Ivanovich, then I am already at your service."

Hmmm....sorta reminded me of this:

When policemen arrive, Renault pauses, then orders them to "round up the usual suspects." He suggests to Rick that they join the Free French in Brazzaville. As they walk away into the fog, Rick says, "Louis, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship".
Casablanca (film) - Wikipedia

Now I see why Jonathan mentioned the movie Casablanca when we first began reading this book.  So many references are in this book from Casablanca.  I am going to rent the movie this week end and watch it.  It has piqued my interest.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casablanca_(film)
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #209 on: March 02, 2018, 12:13:55 PM »
Karen, that was sort of my thought too--I didn't think of the bees, but in a way his old life ended when he didn't jump, and he's now taking a new direction and purpose.

Jonathan

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #210 on: March 02, 2018, 10:00:15 PM »
Karen: 'I don't think he has ever worked in his life, but a "life of leisure" is no longer fulfilling to him.'

Let's remember his reply at his 'trial', when he was asked, 'And what is your occupation?' 'It is not the business of gentlmen to have occupations.'

Just look at him now. He's a first-rate waiter. A foster parent. A budding seamster. What next? Take in washing? No. He's asked to be a conultant on dealing with foreigners. The Count would probably say, 'It's all a matter of mastering one's circumstances.' And in the process he is becoming a useful citizen. I wonder if there is a future for him in the Party.

I seem to remember a Bolshevik rallying cry: 'To each according to his needs. From each according to his ability.' Pol Sci 101.

Enjoy the movie, Bellamarie. I can't help wondering about it's relevance to the book. It's challenging.

Mkaren557

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #211 on: March 03, 2018, 08:53:57 AM »
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a slogan popularised by Karl Marx in his 1875 Critique of the Gotha Program.

Cold War Child that I was, I was supposed to hate Marx and the Commies. But, I thought this sounded like a great idea.  I formed liberal roots very young.
 

bellamarie

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #212 on: March 03, 2018, 10:08:06 PM »
Seems the whole attitude is changing in Russia, or at least at the Shalyapin Bar, three things are credited to the lighter, fun mood, they are 1.) Jazz has returned, 2.) the Foreign Press office opened up in 1928, 3.) And then there was that extraordinary development of 1929.  in April of that year, the Shalyapin suddenly had not one, not two, but three hostesses__all young, beautiful, and wearing black dresses hemmed above the knee.  With what charm and elegance they moved among the patrons of the bar, gracing the air with their slender silhouettes, delicate laughter, and hint of perfume. pg 213

So, we have hostesses eavesdropping and bringing information back to the little grey guy behind the little grey desk, and you have the Bishop suspicious of the Count, snooping and following him around like his shadow. 

Anna has up and left the Metropol with no good-bye to the Count. Nina has returned a married woman, with her little 5 yr old daughter Sophia in tow, asking the Count to take care of her while she gets her self settled, since Leo has been arrested in Lubyanka.  Mishka has gone and committed suicide, and the Count is now straddled with this sweet little clone of Nina at her age.  Sophia is beyond her years, just like her mother.

pg 239  "Would you like to hear a story about a princess?" he suggested.  Sophia sat upright.   "The age of nobility has given way to the age of the common man,"  she said with the pride of one who has recited her times tables correctly.  "It was historically inevitable."  "Yes,"  said the Count.  "So I've been told."

The Count is a true example of this statement.   Still a gentleman yes, nobility hmmmm.....more  a common servant at this point.

Sophia notices the clock and tells him it is broken because it struck the hour twelve in the afternoon, but did not strike the prior hours.  He explains it is a "twice-tolling clock." 

pg 245  Rather, having been suitably industrious before lunch, he should spend his afternoon in wise liberty.  That is he should walk among the willows, read a timeless text, converse with a friend beneath the pergola, or reflect before the fire__engaging in those endeavors that have no appointed hour, and that dictate their own beginnings and end.  And the second chime?  The Count's father  was of  the imind that one should never hear it.  If one had lived one's day well__in the service of industry, liberty and the Lord__one should be soundly asleep long before the twelve.  The the second chime of the twice-tolling clock was most definitely a remonstrance. 

What are you doing up?  it was meant to say.  Were you so profligate with your daylight that you must hunt about for things to do in the dark?

After reading this last night in the wee hours of the night, I had to laugh and wonder.....What am I doing up?

Where does the Count go from here?  Sophia is surely going to cramp not only his little room in the attic, but his daily life schedule as well.  What is he going to do with her while he has to work?  She seems a bit self sufficient, yet also very much needing to feel safe.  He seems to have taken to her like a fish takes to water.  Has his instincts of taking care of Helena kicked in, and he finds it natural to care for Sophia?   

When will we move ahead on the next chapters Karen?  I am not rushing ahead, I will wait patiently for everyone to catch up and post.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

rosemarykaye

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #213 on: March 04, 2018, 07:13:38 AM »
Hello - I'm just dropping in to say I am really sorry I haven't contributed to this. I had every intention of doing so, but I've had both my husband and my youngest daughter at home, stranded by snow, and somehow the days have just vanished (apart from anything else, there's suddenly all this cooking and laundry again! I've become accustomed to just one person's stuff, ie mine!).. It's lovely to have company, but time-consuming too - also all of our buses stopped, so for a few days it took longer just to get to/from work, etc (though luckliy I do at least live within walking distance).

Anyway, I think I'm too far behind now, but I really did enjoy reading the book, and I've bought Casablanca and Dr Zhivago to enjoy this week, when I think both of them will have been able to get on their ways (though of course I've also got some TV to catch up - it was no good watching things like Shetland with them, as we're half way through the story and I know my husband would've been asking questions approximately every 2 minutes...)

Thank you Karen for bringing this excellent book to our attention - I've recommended it to several people.

Best wishes to all,

Rosemary

Mkaren557

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #214 on: March 04, 2018, 08:44:11 AM »
I think, Bella, thay most are ready to move, so let's do it.  Let's try to finish Book 3 by Friday. Then we will start Book 4 on Saturday.  I am having spinal surgery later this month.  I will know more on Tuesday when I meet with the doctor so I will be able to give you all a date.

Rosemary, we missed you, but I am so glad that you enjoyed the book.  I don't know what the next selection is sho keep your eyes peeled.

bellamarie

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #215 on: March 04, 2018, 09:15:02 AM »
Rosemary, I am so sorry to hear you are leaving us.  Keep poking in and commenting if you can find the time, we are always excited to have your thoughts.  Sometimes when you read the entire book too soon, you have a tendency to drop out because you don't want to give away spoilers to those who have not read ahead.  Once all gets settled back to normal maybe you can come back in at least at the end to let us know what you thought about the book. 

Karen, Oh dear, I hope all goes well with your surgery.  Do let us know as far as scheduling etc.  My daughter was in a car accident a few months back and needs that type of surgery, but she must quit smoking for six months before the doctor will do it.

I was not able to get Casablanca this week end, so I will try to find it throughout this week and watch it.  My On Demand sells it for $15  which I think is a bit much.  I am going to try a rental store today.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Jonathan

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #216 on: March 04, 2018, 10:23:30 PM »
It's a new life for the Count, with five-year-old Sofia.

'She is no more than thirty pounds, no more than three feet tall, her entire bag of belongings could fit in a single drawer; she rarely speaks unless spoken to; and her heart beats no louder than a bird's. So how is it  possible  that she takes up so much space!'

'What is your dolly's name?' 'Dolly doesn't have a name.' 'Your dolly must have a name.' 'Why?' 'Why, so that she can be addressed. So that she can be invited for tea; called to from across the room, discussed in conversation when absent; and included in your prayers.'
p240

The experience has the Count rattled at 48. At 22, he remembers, he could not be 'inconvenienced, interrupted, or unsettled'. p241

Thanks again, Karen, for proposing and leading the discussion of this picturesque, provoking and entertaining book. May it serve as a distraction in a difficult time for you.

Bellamarie, you have something to look forward to. The critics raved about it as soon as it came out. 'The most beloved movie of all time.' 'The most romantic on-screen couple ever'. 'A picture which  makes the spine tingle and the heart take a leap.' Your posts on our book are such a pleasure to read.

Good to hear from you, Rosemary. We're getting such graphic reports of the winter weather your getting, with pictures of abandoned vehicles in snow drifts. I talked to someone in Switzerland the other day and she told me about the bitter cold. Think spring. Stay optimistic. My birthday next week, and I'll have only one more year to get to the gay nineties. I've heard so much about them.

bellamarie

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #217 on: March 05, 2018, 10:35:07 AM »
I have not finished Book Three just yet, but I am enjoying the relationship the Count and Sofia have formed.  She has him scurrying around the room searching for a small silver thimble, which she has secretly placed in his jacket pocket.  After he has searched to no avail I love this exchange:

pg 257  "Well done, Sofia" he said.  Sofia looked directly at the Count for the first time since he'd come into the room.  "Are you giving up?"  "I am conceding," said the Count.  "Is that the same as giving up?"  "Yes, it is the same as giving up."  "Then you should say so."  Naturally.  His humiliation must be brought to its full realization.  "I give up," he said.  Without a hint of gloating, Sofia accepted his surrender.  Then she jumped off her chair and walked toward.  He stepped a little out of her way, assuming that she must have hid the thimble somewhere in the bookcase.  But she didn't approach the bookcase.  Instead, she stopped in front of him, reached into his jacket pocket, and withdrew the thimble.  The Count was aghast.  "But, but, but, Sofia__that's not fair!"  Sofia studied the Count with curiosity.  "Why is it not fair?"  Always with that damnable Why.  "Because it's not." replied the Count.  "But you said we could hide it anywhere in the room."  "That's just it, Sofia.  My pocket wasn't in the room."  "Your pocket was in the room when I hid the thimble; and it was in the room when you hunted. . .  ."  And as the Count gazed into her innocent little face, it all became clear.  He, a master of nuance and sleight of hand, had been played at every turn.

Couldn't you just see the look on the Count's face, knowing he had been duped by this little 5 yr old.  Sofia is definitely her mother's daughter!

I have to wonder what has become of the Count that we saw in the beginning of this story, the noble, staunch gentleman?  He has turned into a commoner, working in a restaurant, running up the hotel stairs at the beck and call of the willowy Anna, sewing his own buttons on his waiter's coat, and now playing hide n seek with a thimble, being outwitted by a  5 yr old Sophia.   Oh my! 

Yes, Jonathan, it's a new life for the Count. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #218 on: March 06, 2018, 09:26:43 AM »
Jonathan I finally watched Casablanca!  Oh how my hubby and I enjoyed this movie.  Is there any other woman actress as beautiful as Ingrid Bergman?  Ilsa and Rick's love for each other was so selfless.  They sure don't make movies like this any more.  I purchased a new DVD/CD HDMI player for only 29.99 and the actual movie was only 7.99.  Now I can go back and watch a ton of my favorite DVDs I have collected over the years.   I have to say, now I know why you mentioned early on the similarities The Gentleman in Moscow and Casablanca have.  After watching the movie and remembering a few comments from a few of you in your posts here, I can't help but wonder if our Count will one day manage to leave Russia. 

Okay I am going to finish up reading Book Three today.   
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Jonathan

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #219 on: March 06, 2018, 11:07:37 AM »
Bellamarie, I'm very pleased to read of the enjoyment you and your husband had watching Casablanca. I've watched it several times now and it gets better with every viewing. Rick and Ilsa are now my most inspiring lovers, having replaced Heloise and Abelard. Have you read the letters exchanged by H and A? Heartbreaking.

On to end of Book Three.

'At two o'clock, when Marina answered her office door to find the Count at the threshold in the company of a little girl with a rag doll gripped tightly by the neck, she was so surprised her eyes almost came into alignment.

'Ah, Marina' said the Count, raising his eyebrows meaningfully. 'You remember Nina Kulikova? May I present her daughter, Sofia. She will be saying with us in the hotel a bit...'


Ah, how nice it would be to have a five-year-old around the house with her raggedy no-name doll. I suppose I too would soon realize a little help would be necessary for survival.

bellamarie

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #220 on: March 06, 2018, 03:43:35 PM »
Jonathan
Quote
Rick and Ilsa are now my most inspiring lovers, having replaced Heloise and Abelard.  Have you read the letters exchanged by H and A?

I have never heard of Abelard and Heloise.  Of course you have sparked my curiosity, so I have done a Google search.  I will have to delve into their letters after we finish this book. 

Speaking of finishing, I just finished reading Book Three.  Oh my heavens there is so much that is happening in these pages, I don't even know where to begin.  I take notes as I read and mark certain pages to remind me of things that I find interesting, and I think I lost track.  Mishka and Osip are very enlightening with their ideas, and then comes Captain Vanderwhile, who seems to be able to help the Count bring into focus the opinions of both Mishka and Osip, making him realize we can not hold back progress.  Progress will continue, whether we are ready for it or not, whether we protest against it, or whether we see it as a destruction of our past.  I think of how here in the United States this past year we have seen the protest of statues that have stood for centuries being destroyed, pulled down and symbols that reminded us of how far we have come as a nation. This millennial generation repudiates so much of what past generations fought and died for.  I can see that in this book, even then, the same fights are being fought, just different ideologies or causes, but in essence the same, resisting or introducing progress be it industrial, technology, physics or psychology.  I find myself relating so much to the Count, questioning how all this makes any sense.  What really made me stop and take note was this:

pg 293  Osip Ivanovich had actually mastered the English language right down to the past perfect progressive as early as 1939.  But American movies still deserved their careful consideration, he argues, not simply as windows into Western culture, but as unprecedented mechanisms of class repression.  For with cinema, the Yanks had apparently discovered how to placate the entire working class at the cost of a nickel a week.  "Just look at the Depression," he said.  "From beginning to end it lasted ten years.  An entire decade in which the Proletariat was left to fend for itself, scourging in alleys and begging at chapel doors.  If ever there had been a time for the American worker to cast off the yoke, surely that was it.  But did they join their brothers-in-arms?  Did they shoulder their axes and splinter the doors of the mansions?  Not even for an afternoon.  Instead, they shuffled to the nearest movie house, where the latest fantasy was dangled before them like a pocket watch at the end of a chain.  Yes, Alexander, it behooves us to study this phenomenon with the utmost diligence and care."

Like the seasoned scientist, Osip would coolly dissect whatever they had just observed. The musicals were "pastries designed to placate the impoverished with daydreams of unattainable bliss."  The horror movies were "sleights of hand in which the fears of the workingman have been displaced by those of pretty girls."  The vaudevillian comedies were "preposterous narcotics."  And the westerns?  They were the most devious propaganda of all: fables in which evil is represented by collectives who rustle and rob; while virtue is a lone individual who risks his life to defend the sanctity of someone else's private property.  In sum?  "Hollywood is the single most dangerous force in the history of class struggle."

"What is this?"  he would ask of no one in particular.  "Who is making these movies?  Under what auspices?"

From one to the next, they seemed to depict an America in which corruption and cruelty lounged on the couch; in which justice was a beggar and kindness a fool; in which loyalties were fashioned from paper, and self-interest was fashioned from steel.  In other words, they provided an unflinching portrayal of Capitalism as it actually was.  "How did this happen, Alexander?  Why do they allow these movies to be made?  Do they  not realize they are hammering a wedge beneath their own foundation stones?" 

These are pretty insightful words our author Towles has written.  He is placing them in a time frame of the 1930's and 40s, but look how they fit right into today's world.  Look at the attitudes of Hollywood, look at their lifestyles, look at how they are such hypocrites who stand before their award podiums and preach to those who are willing to even tune into them any more, and tell us how their political views are superior to the rest of us.  They have rapists, abusers, adulterers, sexual predictors, criminals among them, yet they continue to cast their stones out at the people who go to the movies to pay their wages.  They live in gated, guarded mansions, wear thousand dollar gowns and tuxedos, drink the finest wines, champagnes, and eat at the most expensive restaurants, send their children to the most elite expensive private schools, make their violent, vulgar sexual movies and music and then pass their judgement out to the very people who have made them the successful actors and actresses they are today.  They see their lives above reproach, they do not feel they are expected to live within a moral standard, they mock faith and family values, and now they intend to put someone like Oprah Winfrey up to run for the presidency, so they can control every aspect of the lives of the rest of us, when they don't even value or respect human life from conception.  Yes, Towles's words, coming from Osip's mouth, has enormous insight where Hollywood is concerned.  Dupe them, deceive them, and deflect them from their real life issues.  The show must go on..... there is only one difference today, the sleeping American people have awoken.  They no longer are willing to pay the price to go be entertained by Hollywood, they no longer find watching their self aggrandizing award shows entertaining, they no longer place value in their self-righteous speeches, and more importantly, the American people see them for who they are, and are rejecting them.  The Oscars had the lowest viewer ratings in history, this past Sunday night.  It was reported most of the movies nominated were not at all known to the average American.  Yes sireee times they are a changin, and Hollywood just may have lost their Midas touch.  Social media, internet, cell phones, ipads, etc., is the new induced narcotic, Towles speaks of.  People don't want to take two hours out of their day to sit in a movie theater, that charges them too much for a ticket, popcorn and drink, to watch actors and actresses who they have seen spew hatred and hypocrisy at them.  Nope like myself, I prefer buying a new DVD/CD player and the actual movie for less than what it would cost me and my hubby to go to a theater, and watch it in the comforts of our own home.  Sorry Hollywood..... You've lost that lovin feelin.  As Rick said to Ilsa, when saying his good-bye.....Here's lookin at you kid.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Mkaren557

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #221 on: March 06, 2018, 05:08:46 PM »
I found out yesterday that my surgery will be the 16th which is next week, so Pat has volunteered to smoothly glide into leading us.  I will be a participant until next Friday when I can focus and think clearly.  I do need to say how much fun this group has been.  I am sad that I may not be around at the end, or maybe I will.  I wish those who did not participate for various reasons will read and enjoy the book as much as I think we all have. I would love to have all of you sitting around a samovar or a bottle of Russian vodka  in my living room, but isn't Senior Learn a great option.   Karen

bellamarie

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #222 on: March 06, 2018, 05:54:36 PM »
Karen, thank you for bringing this book to our book club, and thank you for leading us thus far.  I hope your surgery goes well, and wish only the best of results and health for you.  Thank you Pat, for agreeing to lead us to the end of this book.  Our Count is such an interesting character, and I can’t wait to see how this book ends. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #223 on: March 07, 2018, 02:31:56 AM »
Sorry not been a part of things - had a buyer that we found a to-be-built on Friday and Saturday we spent all morning and early afternoon picking out brick, flooring, lights etc etc - all but the paint - then on Sunday writing the contract took another 6 hours - then I missed last week's class so Monday I had to get training in order to work the polls today - I am completely bushed and only started the second half of book 3 today during the dead time at the polls -

Wow - interesting seeing this time in history from the perspective of someone whose background is so far removed from our Jeffersonian thinking that heralds individualism versus collective anything - "Jefferson abhorred the idea of America becoming an urban, manufacturing nation, something that could happen rapidly under the Hamiltonian vision. Instead, he believed rural individualism, symbolized by the yeoman farmer, was the best way to sustain a republic. Small yeoman farmers were the exemplars of American virtue, he claimed. Having spent time in Europe, Jefferson witnessed the disease, poverty and filth of many cities and did not want America taking a similar course. Moreover, people who worked for others, rather than being self-sufficient farmers, were susceptible to pressure from bosses to vote a certain way. This lack of political independence threatened American democracy, according to Jefferson."

In the meantime after Lenin had his stroke and Stalin made the huge switch from a Socialistic idealism to Stalinism in the 1920s the outcome of the switch to collective farming sent 8 million Russians to their death from starvation.  Interesting the meeting with Osip in the 1940s is after Stalin's purge in the 1930s as a result of the death of Kirov, his best buddy and who historians think was killed by Stalin's orders because he, Kirov, was favored during the vote in 1934 that the unfavorable votes for Stalin magically disappeared. 

One movie that was not yet made that was made from the 1919 book by Reed, Ten Days That Shook The World, was the movie Reds with Warren Beatty and Diane Keaton.  Now that is a movie to rent - except for Trotsky's History of the Russian Revolution, Ten Days That Shook The World is the best account and written by an American Journalist.

Funny that Osip thought folks went regularly to the movie theater during the depression - not even taking into account that a movie showed in a theater for weeks - often up to 16 weeks and then went to the B theaters and finally the neighborhood theater so one move was available for a year - with kids saying they enjoyed a chicken dinner meaning their family had an egg for dinner most fathers were wanting the yoke of a job and so there were few movies for the average, who saw a movie as an escape, a fantasy, not a lesson but rather an idealistic view of non-reality.

I think back and all those westerns that we kids saw on Saturday afternoon in the late 30s and early 40s always had the white hat good guy as a loner and the bad guy, more often than not was the big rancher with his hired men.

As to the Communist party in the US - it was very active however, Roosevelt out did them and put folks back under the 'welcome' yoke of work - that was all folks wanted - and the CCC - WPA - CWA - HOLC - PWA - TVA etc. was like rain after a severe drought - Then, just as the unions that resulted from the Communist parties, that in the USA were called Socialists, were getting more than a toe hold, we were coming to terms with what to do about helping Europe since Hitler was at it... During the war, those in Hollywood and other intellects who did get their party card in the 30s were silent, followed by being blacklisted big time at war's end.

I think what Osip did not understand that like, Rick in Casablanca, during the 30s most Americans believed in neutrality and were mostly indifferent, with the Monroe Doctrine still a guiding force and the huge Atlantic Ocean our separation from Europe. But then again, like Rick Blaine, once we are caught up and see the job as ours there is a single mindedness similar to those in Leningrad, who, with the help of severe winter weather's affect on themselves as well as the enemy, they held off Hitler's army, as we crushed the Nazi's in Europe and Northern Africa.

My sense is Osip only sees the world, as he saw American movies through the eyes of a totalitarian Governing System with some Socialistic benefits, decided by the ruling Stalin and 'his' party, compared to a Democratic Governing System where Jacksonian Individualism holds equal sway with Hamilton Federalism, that pushes for a strong central government. As a nation we are still balancing those extremes and everyone, regardless of their work has an opinion.

I just had a gut feeling Sophie would be a guest for far more than a couple of months and now she is a teen - seems like being a part of a work or group environment, experiencing several kinds of love and a having purpose beyond keeping memories and manners alive is the key/message for a meaningful life. It also appears having an enemy here and there does not hurt either. 

OK need to finish reading book three...   
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #224 on: March 07, 2018, 09:41:38 AM »
Yes, I need to finish Book 3 too, now that I'm responsible for it.  I've spent the last few days dealing with the aftermath of last week's storm.  I had the tops of some large trees blow off, taking branches and smaller trees down with them, and making a super mess.  But now the stuff that couldn't wait, mostly a large branch on the roof, has been cleared, and the rest can wait until the tree people aren't so busy.  I was really lucky--no damage at all to the house, fence, etc.  The trees chose how they landed carefully.

bellamarie

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #225 on: March 07, 2018, 10:19:15 AM »
Barb so glad to see you back.  The Count had originally expected to have Sofia a month or so at the most.  He went from Uncle Alexander to Papa, now that Sofia is a teenager.  The little game of running up the staircases to see who could get there first turned out to be a dangerous game, and now poor Sofia has a concussion, and the Count without giving it a second thought has stepped outside the Metropol for the first time in twenty some years, to get help for Sofia.  I found it touching how his instincts were immediately that of a parent, and how all his friends came to his and Sofia's aide.  He really did get a good glimpse of how the outside world has changed when he realized the hospital that once was, is now no longer used for much, with a skeleton crew, along with being a shelter for the homeless. 

PatH., Again, thank you so much for stepping in for Karen.  I'm so glad the trees did not do any damage to your roof or house.  I woke up to the biggest snowflakes flying about, only to cease in a matter of minutes.  I feel Spring is pushing it's way through the scattered flurries we have been getting this past week.  My tulips and Easter lilies are pushing through the ground, and the blackbirds have returned to my feeders.  I am so ready for Spring.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #226 on: March 07, 2018, 01:48:16 PM »
Well, Book 3 is certainly action-packed.  It's got everything: drama, love, pathos, humor, even slapstick, philosophy and more, all against the political background of Russia's turbulent history.

One tiny incident struck me as significant.  When Sophia comes into the Count's life, just after Marina has pointed out that it is he who must supply the child's emotional needs, he is running up the stairs.  "I can do this" he says to himself.  This is the moment in which he accepts his strange new fate and truly commits to it.

Jonathan

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #227 on: March 07, 2018, 04:06:08 PM »
Karen, our good wishes go with you through the upcoming medical procedure. Of course you'll be there when we get to the end of this hilarious story. Just look at the great posts it's provoking.

For Marx religion was the opiate of the people. For the Bolsheviks it was Hollywood. It seems to me it was Hollywood that saved the country and enthralled the rest of the world with the American dream.

The book itself is great theater, told with great dramatic eloquence. As in the sceneAscending, Alighting, in which the man 'prone to pacing' comes on stage. Will the pacing end with 'judicious behavior' or 'impulsively'? And we're treated to a 'consideration of causes and consequences, of ramifications and repercussions.'

The scene comes to an end with the Count unable to fall asleep. The best remedy, 'the counting of sheep in a meadow' is not available to him, since he prefers his lamb 'encrusted with herbs and served with wine'. So he counts the many flights of stairs he has climbed and descended that day. 59! So why didn't he label the scene simply Up and Down? Sofia, no doubt, makes it 60 by informing him in the P.S. (Addendum) that she has left her Dolly in Aunt Marina's room downstairs.

The author is most certainly a city boy. Sheep aren't counted in the meadow. Only after they are gathered in the fold.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #228 on: March 07, 2018, 05:22:21 PM »
Karen
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #229 on: March 08, 2018, 09:39:34 AM »
Osip is amusing.  He quickly spots it when the Count hasn't read the assignment and tries to fake it.  He decides that American movies are a tool to control the masses, but he can't stop watching them, is so hooked on Humphrey Bogart movies that he snarls with fury when the Count interrupts him while watching one for the third time.

Even party functionaries can have good hearts, though.  When Sofia is concussed, he quickly arranges the best care in Moscow for her, and gets the Count smuggled back to the hotel, thus saving his life too.

PatH

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #230 on: March 08, 2018, 09:52:24 AM »
Has anyone read de Toqueville?  Would this hundred year old (at the time they read it) book give Osip a real idea of what Americans were like?

If I were picking, I would throw in some Mark Twain.  He shows a side of Americans that's very different from Europeans--a kind of frontier way of thinking, a feeling that we are the land of second chances, new opportunity, and self-reliance.  And his humor is a uniquely American sort.

bellamarie

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #231 on: March 08, 2018, 12:03:43 PM »
PatH., 
Quote
Has anyone read de Toqueville?  Would this hundred year old (at the time they read it) book give Osip a real idea of what Americans were like?

I have not read it, but based on the summary, it would have given Osip more about how the American government worked, more so than what Americans were like. 

The project Tocqueville undertook in writing Democracy in America was a highly ambitious one. Having seen the failed attempts at democratic government in his native France, he wanted to study a stable and prosperous democracy to gain insights into how it worked. 
http://www.gradesaver.com/democracy-in-america
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #232 on: March 08, 2018, 12:54:42 PM »
Some years ago we read Toqueville here on Senior Learn or maybe we were still SeniorNet. Robbie as the discussion leader - he jumped around in the book rather than reading it straight through and I was always going to go back and read it from beginning to end but like so many good ideas - "The best laid schemes o' mice an' men Gang aft agley."

I am imagining that every city has significant changes over 30 years - can you think back 30 years ago and envision the changes where you live - here in the USA I think even farm land has taken a major change in 30 years, between cities growing out and gobbling up what was pastures and small farms no longer the way of things, with large factory farms having taken over since the early 90s (looks like we followed the example of the Soviet Union) - about the only places that have not had a major change in 30 years is some ranch land - and yes, large city hospitals have been replaced, even small town hospitals have shuttered and no longer operating although, there are so many small emergency clinics but not in small towns.

The Count really had to depend on the taxi driver - can you just imagine finding your daughter unconscious and the panic trying to find a hospital with everything having changed - he really sees Sophia as his daughter - no word all this time from or about her parents - I wonder if we will ever learn or are we to realize the saved photo of the parents was the memorial?

Seems to me I am remembering back about 15 or 20 years ago reading how if you need hospital care in Russia you had to bring with you your own sheets and towels as well as the things used for personal care and arrange for meds on the Black Market - I am trying to remember when this was talked about - something to do with a ballet star needing care and Mikhail Baryshnikov explaining - let's see he defected in the 70s but it was later - Reagan did his Tear Down This Wall speech in the mid 80s - seems to me it was around this time - before the wall did come down and the Soviet Union was dissolved which was with Gorbachev in the early 90s.

I'm getting lost in the time frame of the story - I think this is supposed to be in the early 50s that Sophie was rushed off the the hospital - let's see, if The Count was under 'house' arrest since the early 20s - forgot, I think 1922 before Stalin took over and the originals, like Lenin were still organizing and this is supposed to be 30 years later than yes, it would be in the 50s that the Count was rushing Sophia to the hospital.

When was the last time you smelled fresh baked bread? Here in Austin we had a local bread company where the air was full of the smells of fresh baked bread in two locations - come to think of it I do not even know when they stopped baking - it has been years since driving along and smelling fresh baked bread - it is as if today everything is made in some factory in the sky and simply arrives in the stores packaged with no clue to a youngster that the bread was actually baked or that flour was milled. We do not even have on TV a Mr. Rogers any longer showing youngsters how things are made.

No wonder they have their nose in some devise or another - that is as real as anything in their daily existence. We used to have class outings with parents signing up to accompany the class as they visited places like the Bakery or if not the school at least the Boy and Girl Scout groups after school - I do not even see that taking place any longer - wow, I wonder what is left here in my area that even is reminiscent of the outings where my children saw how things were made.

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #233 on: March 08, 2018, 01:18:18 PM »
Well I had to look it up and attempted to use their chat line - seems all the Mrs. Baird bread locations are closed, even the one in Waco and in Dallas - there is one left in Fort Worth - never knew when Mrs. Baird's bread even served beyond Waco - times sure have changed - at least there are still tours made available at their Fort Worth location.

Tra La Mrs Johnson's Bakery that was never into mass production is still over on Airport Blvd since 1948 - need to check it out.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #234 on: March 08, 2018, 03:09:25 PM »
As nearly as I can figure out from the chapter headings, it's 1946 when Sofia has her accident.  I wish dates were scattered more thickly in the book.  The Count takes Sofia to what had once been a fine hospital, and finds almost no facilities left.

And he has no money, which reminds me, I wonder who pays for his room and board?  When he didn't kill himself, in 1926, he put the gold piece meant to pay for his funeral back in its desk leg, "...where it would remain untouched for another twenty-eight years."   So that's not what he's using.

Mkaren557

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #235 on: March 08, 2018, 04:40:22 PM »
I think at the beginning the leg was filled with gold coins.  I think that the man he called in the beginning sells them.

I had an exchange student who learned about America watching American tv.  He was a little disappointed when he came to live with me because he thought that everyone had houses and lived as they did on "Dallas". I told him that most people who live in Dallas don't live like they do on the tv show.  Ossip asked to learn not about the country but subtleties about Americans. Movies are good for that as long as you watch them with someone who knows Americans.  I think you can know English but find it difficult to speak with an American.  Remember "Throw MAMA from the train a kiss", one of  my favorites songs from the 50s.  my experience with regional colloquialisms was my first days as a freshman:  Maine girl goes to Catholic University, in DC.  The first week  and until the first soccer win, we had to wear a cap that they called a dink.  Now in Maine the word "dink"refers to the penis.  So every time a sophomore asked someone why her dink is not on her head, I burst out laughing.  Those kinds of things Issip would learn from watching movies. Thank you for all your good wishes.     

PatH

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #236 on: March 09, 2018, 11:45:50 AM »
Karen:
Quote
I think at the beginning the leg was filled with gold coins.  I think that the man he called in the beginning sells them.
Yes.  What wasn't clear to me was whether the man sold it all at once, or only some of it at first.  The man is given 3 pieces and told there's more.  But probably it was all sold, except the piece reserved for burial, and the count has now spent it all.

PatH

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #237 on: March 09, 2018, 11:52:38 AM »
The plan is to start talking about Book 4 tomorrow.  Tentatively, a week on 4, then a week on 5, but this can be shifted when we see what's needed.  They're shorter books.  As always, we can still talk about earlier stuff too.

bellamarie

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #238 on: March 09, 2018, 01:00:11 PM »
PatH., 
Quote
Yes.  What wasn't clear to me was whether the man sold it all at once, or only some of it at first.  The man is given 3 pieces and told there's more.  But probably it was all sold, except the piece reserved for burial, and the count has now spent it all.

I don't get the impression the Count has spent all his coins, he told the man there is plenty where that came from.  There are four desk legs that were filled with the valuable coins.  I think it would be enough to keep him in his lavish dining style, for the rest of his life.  I think taking the job at the restaurant was more to have something to do, not about an income.  He does not have to pay rent to the hotel because he has been put under house arrest in an attic.  I don't think money is an issue, he is a wealthy man.  He could sell some of his belongings that are valuable, if there was ever a matter of money issues.

I am going to begin Book Four today.  Can't wait to see what is next for Sofia and the Count.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: A Gentleman in Moscow~Amor Towles~Winter-Spring Book Club Online~
« Reply #239 on: March 09, 2018, 01:25:58 PM »
Yes, I agree with Bellamarie on the coins - my only thought was he may still have some however, is the Greek money changer still alive or in business - I think the idea he had no money for the hospital was more that he rushed out without thinking of money since he had little use for it all those years and so he was not in the habit of carrying around any cash - but then we are all imagining since Towles does not go into the background on why he had no money.

I thought the Count rushing out was such a testament that we all will put our life at stake for our children - with no concern for himself - he could be jailed or shot - he rushes Sophia to the hospital.

I think that is the challenge for most of singles who have aged and no longer have young grandchildren - we are fortunate if we still have a good friend that we would risk life or limb for their welfare but when close friends are gone I think it is a real challenge adding to the isolation similar to the isolation the Count experienced in Book One -

Count Rostov's life is full after he no longer is caught in memory and attempting to re-create the life he had - once he got into the swing of things that the old way of life was no more and that all people mixed with their moral values the only separator - so that a job not only gave him purpose but allowed him to mix and make friends (the Triumvirate) and then the big one - being made responsible for Sophia, all gave him a life changing purpose - it appears having a meaningful purpose is what makes life meaningful and a reason to live - which says to me no matter our age we all need a meaningful purpose to feel happy.

In the story there is so much trust between people - I'm thinking more than usual since their lives were under unusual circumstances - but the trust of a mother giving to a friend her daughter in order to be a support for her husband and then when the Count had to leave the hospital the trust he had to put in Marina to stay close and watch over Sophia and be his heart, arms and care - can you just imagine handing your child to another - oh oh oh.   
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe