Author Topic: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!  (Read 27631 times)

Frybabe

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #120 on: May 12, 2018, 12:39:14 PM »
WELCOME
EVERYONE!
Please, join our
Discussion of

Winter Garden
by Kristin Hannah
The story of a Family
 learning and connecting
to its history and
to each other.
Discussion Dates

Prologue 1972 - Chapter 6...April 30-May 3

Chapter 7 - Chapter 13...May 4-May6
Chapter 14 - Chapter 20...May 7-May12
Chapter 21 - Epilogue 2010...May 13-May

Discussion Leader: Barb




Okay, the book went back to the library so you haven't gotten to the evacuation yet?



Frybabe

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #122 on: May 12, 2018, 01:00:32 PM »
I am assuming that Olga worked at the Hermitage. The following website looks like it is conjunction with the previously mentioned novel, The Madonnas of Leningrad It has some good WWII photos of the museum. https://kingmadonnasofleningrad.weebly.com/the-hermitage.html

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #123 on: May 12, 2018, 01:27:07 PM »
Just a quicky - shortly expecting Paul and Sally up from Magnolia - tomorrow is Mother's Day - I put in the heading that we go onward with the discussion of the last section as of Tomorrow - However, if you are celebrating tomorrow it will probably be Monday for most of us before we really get into the meat of this story - or at least tie down all the loose ends - so please lets finish out today and then get into it as of tomorrow.

Hope you can manage Frybabe since you have read the entire book - the links you provide are awesome - thanks - have you or have any of you visited the Hermitage? I remember back right after Reagan's Berlin Wall speech it was 'the thing' to visit Russia - seems to me I am remembering so many church groups going to bring Bibles into the country and to help renovate churches that for 60 years had been used to store hay etc.

Both you Pat and Bellemarie are pointing out that Evan is still a dark horse in this saga - my gut says he was a soldier during WWII and found Vera/Anya in some displaced person's camp - but we shall see what we shall see - of course Frybabe you know don't you  ;)
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #124 on: May 12, 2018, 02:22:25 PM »
We already know that Evan was a soldier.  I can't remember where, but someone tells one of the sisters that before he enlisted, Evan was seeing (I forget the name), and when he came back from the war, he was married.  So we still don't know the story of meeting Vera.

bellamarie

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #125 on: May 12, 2018, 02:27:14 PM »
Frybabe, those links are fantastic!  I am amazed at how huge the museum and library are.

PatH.,  We were posting at the same time.  I had forgotten it being mentioned Evan was indeed a soldier.  So like you say, now we need to find out how they met.  Barb thinks in a displaced person's camp.  We know Vera went off to help in the war, so possibly she and Evan met while she was doing some sort of duty.  We will have our answer soon, I suspect.

Today we woke up to cloudy skies, hubby and I went to our youngest granddaughter Zoey's soccer game.  By the time we got to the fields it was pouring down rain.  She so looks forward to us coming, so we plopped down in our chairs with umbrellas and afghans and watched the game go on.  Just seconds after Zoey scores her 1st goal ever, the officials had to call the game due to thunder.  YEA for Zoey!!  On our way home we stopped by the library and I bought a couple of hardcover books on sale for a dollar each.  Home now, and ready to snuggle in on this rainy Saturday to finish Winter Garden.  I will be busy tomorrow celebrating Mother's Day with my family, so may not get a chance to check in til Monday.  You all have a Happy Mother's Day!
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #126 on: May 12, 2018, 02:42:03 PM »
Frybabe, where we are, the children have been evacuated from Leningrad, and Vera has brought hers back, left them with her mother, and gone off to serve in the war effort.  We're in Alaska, have just celebrated Anya's birthday, but haven't contacted the professor, assuming we do.

I had assumed Vera's children died, but we don't know how or hen.

lindahart

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #127 on: May 12, 2018, 06:17:12 PM »
Hi.  My name is Linda and I've been following a few book discussions for several years (heavy on "few").  We have recently retired and I plan to read along more often.  I am reading Winter Garden and have been able to read all of your posts.  I'm really enjoying the book.
I'm so new to this that I'm having trouble figuring out how to post. This is a test.  Wish me luck.  I never did figure out how to post my picture or create an online name.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #128 on: May 12, 2018, 08:11:31 PM »
Welcome Linda - so glad you found us... yes, this time we did things a bit differently - most often we have some questions to get the discussion going and most often we look up all sorts of background information about what we are reading - this story is not lending itself to our usual discussion format.

We did follow one thing - we always break a book into sections and only discuss what we have read up to the last section for the week - example - if a book has 12 chapters we may discuss the first 3 chapters the first week and then proceed adding additional 3 chapters for each week taking 4 weeks to discuss the book.

That is about the only thing we have kept to while discussing Hannah's Winter Garden. Our timing has been off based on  moving on in the story since this author left little to discuss the during the first chapters - we are nearing the end and starting tomorrow, Sunday May 13 Mother's Day we are reading and discussing the last chapters that are listed in the heading on top of the page - Chapter 21 - Epilogue 2010...May 13-May

We discuss anything we have already read and since we are on the last group of chapters that means any part of the book can be discussed without giving anything away.

So please, join us and let us hear what you know and think about the characters, the setting, the history of this time period and what you think the themes were in this story.

Since several of us only read up to that weeks group of chapters, we are busy reading these last chapters and along with Mother's Day tomorrow we may not really get into discussing the last of the book till Monday but please, do not let that stop you - please, add your thoughts - we will be anxious to include you in this discussion - we will have another book to read starting in June - the book had been decided upon a week or so ago and it will be The House of the Seven Gables by Hawthorn - hope you join us for that one as well.

Again, so glad you found us - we all started where you are starting with our first discussion and our first posts so step right in and all will smooth out as you add your written thoughts -

Welcome Lindahart
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #129 on: May 13, 2018, 09:32:24 AM »
Well I am speechless - I feel like I've attended a Requiem High Mass - This is the first book in all these over twenty-five years or reading on SeniorNet/Senior Learn that I can remember reading anything so intense.

The epilogue was to me simply tying it up for the reader's satisfaction that I did not find satisfying - nor was the added bit of their visits as a family - I was ready for it to stop when the recognition of the long lost daughter was complete. OH and yes, learning that Sasha waited his entire life - no words can describe - even suggesting tragedy is too kind a word. 

The author filled in all the bits and pieces covering every bit of these characters emotions - I'm not sure I even want time for it to sink in - Some folks feel a heavy heart hearing the story of the crucifixion and for me this is the ultimate sacrifice. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #130 on: May 13, 2018, 12:45:07 PM »
Lovely tour of Sitka, AK from the air, starting with St. Michael's Russian Orthodox Church.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEBBccZqx-0

Wikipedia's entry about Sitka which includes some photos of the original church and the fire that destroyed it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Michael%27s_Cathedral_(Sitka,_Alaska)

I was vaguely disappointed that there wasn't more about Sasha and how he and Anya/Stacey got to Alaska. Also, other than telling us how Evan and Anya/Vera met, we weren't given any more information about their early years together. But then, the story is about Meredith, Nina, and Anya/Vera and their journey to understanding, acceptance, and reconciliation, not extended family history the would have been interesting but not pertinent to the main focus. I wonder, Barb, if some of that is why you were less than satisfied. Considering that the book has such an emotional component throughout, I think that the ending seems a bit less so. At least for me, the scene where they discovered their long lost sister/daughter had a lot less of an impact.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #131 on: May 13, 2018, 04:50:50 PM »
Agree Frybabe - the ending was so like one in a couple of million meetup's - it carried more fantasy than the descriptions of war and existing in Leningrad - then we read how they continue to see each other as sort of a, 'they lived happily ever after' with no real picture of how that came about which probably could be another story.

Another aspect of the story we do not hear about is her experience as a captive and what was it that drew Evan to pick her out of the many prisoner's of war. Sure it is about her but how was she conscious of him. What was she thinking to agree to go with him and marry him. Granted she was emotionally dead but it had to have been something if only that his kindness allowed her to start to heal.

But to me the war story shared so tore me up that I was numb to even care for further details and frankly the ending that was shared annoyed me, it seemed all bits were homogenized into a feel good, you, the reader are safe, don't have nightmares, I'm leaving on the nightlight - it all turns out fine.   
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Jonathan

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #132 on: May 13, 2018, 09:42:27 PM »
Well!! Hasn't this been the strangest book on mothering. Reading the last chapters, especially Ch 23, has made this the most memorable Mother's Day for me. As well as Anya/Vera's story, it is also the story of Mere and Nina, the two motherless girls. Aren't they bright and independent.  And Evan's, who tried to be both father and mother. One has to read between the lines to see what Evan saw in Anya. She was smart and very good looking. I don't think I've ever read anything so imaginative. We might have been told more about Mere's two girls. I've learned a lot with this book.

PatH

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #133 on: May 14, 2018, 07:55:42 PM »
Whew!  That was so emotionally draining I didn't even want to talk about it for a day.  And I can't forget that 700,000 people starved to death in the siege, and had some version of this story.

I agree with Barb and Frybabe about the flaws.  She's really good at describing the hardships, the incredible things they have to do to survive, feelings--the family's intense love for each other, which gives them the strength that keeps them going.

She's also very good at describing the voyage of discovery of the three women, as Vera/Anya tells her story, and the daughters realize what their mother is really like, which teaches them who they really are, and what they want.  The emotional part is totally believable, but the way it plays out is too neat and picture perfect.  I believe they would feel all those things, and change as they did, but not so slickly.  Not like clicking a switch.

And when we get to Alaska, the long arm of coincidence is stretched so far it's being pulled out of its socket.

More later.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #134 on: May 14, 2018, 09:25:44 PM »
Jonathan reading between the lines I can see for Evan to admire Anya/Vera but that would not be what he saw when he met her would it - that whole scenario seems to beg a few chapters - she was supposed to be so worn she looked like an old woman when Leo was dying and she walked into the Nazi front lines and I just do not see being captured and treated as a prisoner her appearance would have improved plus she was so out of it between seeing her son die and sending her daughter off with a wish and a prayer into the unknown it is difficult to see anything but a broken women.

The question is how does a young man, a young soldier fall in love or even just want to take personal care of this broken haggard looking woman to the point of marrying her - I can see a marriage of convenience that would allow her to come to the US - and with her family gone and Leningrad destroyed, there was no returning for her - but we are given to understand Evan chose her to marry because he loved her. What would attract her to him so that he could find out enough about her that he would fall in love - did she tell her story and if so why did he not help her find her daughter - there is a story here that is not revealed by Kristin Hannah.

Pat yes, you say it so much better - the long arm of coincidence is stretched so far it's being pulled out of its socket - she did a wonderful job of writing down every minutia of human starvation and being trapped by war as well as, a political system that brutalizes people. But to tie the story together there are huge chunks passed over with a sentence or two.

Been thinking on it and to do justice to the missing step by step continuation of the story I think this could have been more than one book - maybe even enough for a trilogy - she must really be caught in the drama of PTSD since her new book is about a soldier who returns home to Alaska and dies suffer from PTSD as the main theme.

I thought of the plots she has going and at first thought it was unnecessary to have the whole arch of relationship between the two girls till I realized she needed the two girls to question and be an audience for the story. The two husbands were also needed in order for her to have the two girls - the solution I think would have been to flush out the meeting of Evan and Anya and then another story would be how Sasha and her daughter found each other and how did they get to Alaska and how their life evolved so that she owned the restaurant and how did the professor know about her to direct Anya to her long lost daughter. All that was squished into a chapter and the Epilogue with none of the day by day storytelling that went into the siege of Leningrad and the starvation and death all around them as well as, the death of the grandmother, the mother and Leo.  And then sending your young child off - beyond my emotional capacity to contemplate.

If she lived than whose red coat was that Anya found and if I remember correctly she found the photo in that torn up red coat - what was that all about since we learn the daughter nor the father were blown to bits

Bottom line it will take me reading a couple of books and watching a few movies before I can rid myself of this book - not fun... had no idea and if I had, not sure I would have tackled it - enough misery in life much less, have to read about this too real death and deprivation.  brah... a chill/shiver for sure...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #135 on: May 14, 2018, 11:24:28 PM »
Barb, you're not sure you would have tackled it, but thank you for sticking with it.  I'm not sorry I read it, or won't be in another day or so when it settles down.

I can figure out the answers to some of your questions.  The coat: it was Anya's coat.  Remember, it was only part of the coat.  It had probably been ripped off her by the explosion, and people gathering up the seriously wounded wouldn't bother with parts of clothing.

I can see why Evan fell in love with Vera.  She had been a prisoner for several years, had recovered from starvation.  He was attracted by her courage.  She probably managed to tell him at least some of her story, and everyone who knows it is overawed by her strength and bravery.  And she is always beautiful, no matter how sad or haggard.  Evan is a very loving, nurturing person.  I can see his urge to love her and heal her.

Frybabe

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #136 on: May 15, 2018, 06:44:39 AM »
I don't know about recovering from starvation, PatH, considering the pix from WWII liberated POW/concentration camps. However, she would not have been there as long as others. By the time the Germans figured they were losing and their supplies were dwindling, I don't suppose they were as willing to feed prisoners. In fact, I found this interesting article about the treatment of Russian POWs by the Germans. http://www.historynet.com/soviet-prisoners-of-war-forgotten-nazi-victims-of-world-war-ii.htm

This sentence stands out in my mind. "On June 29, Field Marshal Günther von Kluge ordered, ‘Women in uniform are to be shot.' " It's a good thing Vera/Anya was not in uniform or Jewish (at least I assume she wasn't).

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #137 on: May 15, 2018, 08:12:37 AM »
Interesting Frybabe and it seems we could fight the war on the eastern front all over - the article showed the behavior of the Germans but according to a good friend whose husband was the head chef at Transylvania Collage in Lexington, Ky. they lived on the eastern edges of Germany and was so frightened of the Soviets, who evidently according to them, acted as barbarians that the German families fled on foot to Central Germany burning everything behind them and later they walked to Western Germany - they burned everything so the Soviet Troops would not have any animals or fields of wheat or thing in houses to live off, hoping it would slow down their invasion that listening to my friends was likened to the hoards of Genghis Khan with those in their path hacked to death -

Since Russia, although an ally, enacted Stalinism with Stalin our enemy before the war even ended, I'm thinking the Russian side of WWII was never explored properly to know the full story -

The story of Leningrad has been written about and that siege is about the only thing I can think of that the west gave Russia its due however, I am thinking the WWII Russian soldier was probably the child of the Bolshevik peasants who brought down the Tsar and was not nearly as educated or trained as the average German soldier who had a couple of generations out of rough living on the edge; they were not servants to the King/Emperor as the father and grandfathers of the Russian troops were to the Tsar. And so, the Russian soldier was probably frightening in their manner and not at all as we think of a soldier today. I'm thinking they would not have endured as prisoners for instance as the captured Civil War soldiers endured at Andersonville - Regardless starving, from what I heard and the little available to read, Russian soldiers found ways to continue fighting even as prisoners.

There have been a very few but, a few stories that have leaked out over the years that American Troops killed rather than keep prisoners because they needed ever soldier to fight rather than oversee or feed prisoners. I'm not excusing only saying, fighting a war is more complicated than an article written from the viewpoint of one side or the other and so where it is an atrocity to have killed that many prisoners, keeping them alive over the vast thousands of miles of barren snow fields was probably impossible. From what I hear the German prisoner soldier caught by Russian troops were left in the open to freeze to death since preserving ammunition was their priority - however, we have no records as to numbers.

Maybe that is why Kristin Hannah did not write about Anya's experience as a prisoner - there is such little written about what happened, that as a writer her research would have taken many years and probably visits to Russia to interview anyone alive who could help fill in the story of the eastern front. Trying to imagine what Anya would be like other than a rag doll is for me a challenge - and for a soldier to be kind, in awe and altruistic I can imagine but to fall in love I think as a give and take rather than simply taking care of someone and that is the part I'm having difficulty understanding. After Anya becomes healthy and they are married for awhile with children coming I can understand - it is just the initial attraction I'm having a difficult time understanding - of all the prisoners why Anya... and where was she when he found her... on and on the questions in my head but then OK I said it didn't I that the author probably had little information to flush out that part of the story.   
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #138 on: May 15, 2018, 11:57:01 AM »
Oh dear I feel the last person who has shown up at the party, and all the festivities have been completed.  All your thoughts are so interesting to read.

I finished the book after I came home from celebrating a very festive Mexican Mother's Day dinner with my family.  I was feeling so excited from the beautiful thought-out gift my children gave to me, and the sweet home made cards my two youngest grandchildren made for me, not to mention the beautiful sentimental card my one son picked out that just tore at my heartstrings. because he has never been a boy/man of many words, especially when it comes to expressing his feelings, but he always gives me a card, that allows me to see into his soul, his love for me.  So about the gift.... I had saw this special painting on Facebook at a friend's reuse shop called Encore.  I fell in love with this painting as soon as I saw it, and posted a comment under it asking if it was still for sale.  The owner Birdie, my friend who I came to know through my daughter in law some twenty years ago, responded after awhile and said, "I am sorry Marie, that painting just sold."  Feeling a bit sad and disappointed, I told my hubby, "Drat, I was sure that painting was meant for me!"  Lo and behold.... after we ate our dinner at the restaurant, the kids say, "We have one more gift for you, we have to give it to you outside, and you have to close your eyes."  We walk out to their car, my eyes closed, my hubby guiding me.  We stop and they all say,  "Okay, open your eyes." I thought I was going to faint..... there was the beautiful painting in front of me.  My daughter in law had seen my post online, and had contacted Birdie, and secretly purchased the painting, to give it to me, from all of them.  Oh how my heart was filled with love and joy! 

So.... I come home, snuggled in on the couch, and decide to finish reading Winter Garden. I closed the book after reading the last page, and tears were rolling down my face.  My hubby happened to come walking into the room at that very moment, and asked what was wrong.  I could barely speak, this book and all the happenings on Mother's Day, just did me in emotionally.  I read him the last chapter of the book, and he teared up and said, "It's touching the family found the daughter/sister, and that the husband waited for her all those years."

I've read all your comments and without being influenced by what I have read, I will try to express my thoughts..... I all along thought Dr. A., would be a link to Anya/Vera finding out what happened to Sasha and her daughter Anya, even though we were told she saw them blown up in front of her eyes. Something inside me, felt they survived, hence my thinking Dr. A., would bring them together.  Wishful thinking, insight, a writer's intuition to a happy ending..... call it what you like.

Stacey meeting Anya, Meredith and Nina in her diner, and served them like they were royal made me question, what the heck, why would she react so strongly to total strangers, only because Anya had a Russian accent, which was never mentioned prior to this time, considering her voice was described many times, when telling the fairy tale and not.  So, why didn't Anya, and Stacey see the resemblance in each other at that very moment?  Yet, on pg. 180 we are told:

Meredith saw what had gotten her mother's attention.  There were two framed photographs on the corner table.  One was a black and white picture of a young couple.  In it, the woman was tall and slim, with jet-black hair and an oversized smile.  The man was blond and gorgeous.  There were pale white lines that quartered the picture, as if it had been folded for many years.  "Those are my parents,"  Stacey said slowly.  "On their wedding day.  My mother was a beautiful woman.  Her hair was so soft and black, and her eyes. . . I still remember her eyes.  Isn't that funny?  They were so blue, with gold . . ."  Mom turned slowly.  Stacey looked into Mom's eyes and the teacup she was holding fell to the hardwood floor, spilling liquid and breaking into pieces.  Stacey's plump hand was shaking as she reached for something on the table, but not once did she look away.  And then she was holding something out to Mom:  a small jeweled butterfly.  Mom dropped to her knees on the floor saying, "Oh my God . . ."  Meredith wanted to reach out and help her, but she and Nina both stood back.  It was Stacey who knelt in front of her.  "I am Anastasia Aleksovna Marchenko Koontz, from Lenningrad.  Mama?  Is it really you?"  Mom drew in a deep breath and started to cry.  "My Anya . . ."

While it is all good and sentimental the two of them have found each other, my mind could not grasp how they could spend time with each other in the diner, and not see or feel anything to connect them, especially the "blue eyes with gold" she never forgot? 

The replica of Sash's summer garden being the same and Anya's winter garden was a sweet touch to add to the story, since the name of the book is Winter Garden, and it had to eventually tie into something meaningful, as did the butterfly which is on the front of the book cover.  To hear Sasha had waited for Anya all these years, and had recently died months prior, was so romantic and heart wrenching.  The first thought that came to my mind was to ask, what if Anya would have found out Sasha and Anya had survived the explosion, after her marrying Evan and having Meredith and Nina, when Dr. A. had contacted her some twenty years prior to this? 

Think on that for a bit while I take a short break......
 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #139 on: May 15, 2018, 12:41:24 PM »
Drat, I just can't let this go, all your comments and my thoughts are rumbling around in my head and I need to get them out.
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Jonathan
Quote
One has to read between the lines to see what Evan saw in Anya.

Barb,
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Trying to imagine what Anya would be like other than a rag doll is for me a challenge - and for a soldier to be kind, in awe and altruistic I can imagine but to fall in love I think as a give and take rather than simply taking care of someone and that is the part I'm having difficulty understanding.

PatH.,
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I can see why Evan fell in love with Vera.  She had been a prisoner for several years, had recovered from starvation.  He was attracted by her courage.

Frybabe,
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I don't know about recovering from starvation, PatH, considering the pix from WWII liberated POW/concentration camps. However, she would not have been there as long as others. By the time the Germans figured they were losing and their supplies were dwindling, I don't suppose they were as willing to feed prisoners.

page 369  "They take me prisoner instead,"  Mom said, still staring out the window.  "Prisoner,"  Mom muttered, shaking her head.  "I try to die.  Try. . .  Always I am too week to kill myself. . . "  She turned away from the window at last, looked at them.  "Your father was one of the American soldiers who liberated the work camp.  We were in Germany by then. It was the end of the war.  Years later.  The first time he spoke to me, I was not even paying attention; I was thinking that if I'd been stronger, my children would have been with me on this day when the camp gates opened, so when Evan asked me my name, I whispered Anya.  I could have taken it back later, but I liked hearing her name every time someone spoke to me.  It hurt me, and I welcomed the pain.  It was the least of what I deserved.  I went with your father__married him__because I wanted to be gone, and he was the only way I had to leave.  I never really expected to start over__ I was so sick.  I expected, hoped, to die.  But I did not.  And, well . . .  how can you not love Evan?  There.  That is it.  Now you know."

I felt so cheated when this is all we got to learn about Evan and Anya's relationship.  Did I want more?  Yes, of course I did, but what difference would it have made in the story?  Sasha was Vera's first and great love. Sasha was who she mourned for, longed for, missed all these years, and thought was dead, seen with her own eyes blown up.  Sasha was her Prince Charming, no man no matter who he would have been could have ever replaced Sasha, could have given Vera those first girlhood feelings when you first see that one boy/young man and feel your heart leap, wanting to be in his presence knowing it's a peasant girl who could be arrested at any time, dating a Prince who is a poet, who also could be arrested at any time.  There is no need to learn any more about Anya and Evan for me.  Evan saved Vera, and she became Anya.  Anya loved Evan for taking her from the hell she was in, for loving her when she felt she was unworthy of any love, after what she felt she had done to her children.  She would have gone with anyone who made the offer to get her out of there.  Evan was a man of character, he saw a wounded, war torn, ragged, dirty, starving, haggard old woman, and his sense of character saw beyond what his eyes showed him.  That is what we can take from Evan.  A man who was able to protect this woman, love her, have children with her and protect those two daughters, just as he protected their mother.  As our author says.....

But now the story was over, or mostly told, and from here on, it would be a different story anyway.  From now on, it would be their story.



“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
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PatH

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #140 on: May 15, 2018, 12:48:52 PM »
Oh, Bellamarie, what a gorgeous Mothers Day.  I'm chuckling and choked up at the same time.  You're blessed, and you've certainly earned it.

I had a less spectacular, but very love-filled three generational brunch, with popovers made by the youngest generation for the mothers.

Frybabe

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #141 on: May 15, 2018, 01:06:13 PM »
The Germans did well to be afraid of Russian troops. At the beginning of WWI, Russia was the first to declare war on Germany after the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand of Austria. During that war, the Russian government put out propaganda about how badly Russian soldiers were treated in German POW camps as well as German orders (fake?) to shoot rather than take prisoners. You are right, Barb, that many of the Russian soldiers were simple, uneducated peasants while the German armies were populated with much better educated men. I'm guessing that the Russian government put out that propaganda to discourage their soldiers from surrendering or deserting. Who knows!

The whole history of conflicts in the European area is long and tangled from very early on. I never did have a real grasp of the events, alliances and conflicts immediately leading up to WWI.

While I was nosing around the internet while writing this post I see I missed some new posts. Reading now.

Frybabe

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #142 on: May 15, 2018, 01:41:51 PM »
Bellamarie, I definitely got the impression that Vera/Anya didn't love Evan at first. I expect she would have been dependent, needy and depressed at the time of her rescue. Once she discovered she wasn't going to die, her feelings for Evan became something more over time. Too bad we weren't given any kind of time line from meeting Evan to their marriage.

I am still not sure just how much she really loved him. She certainly was still dependent upon him and learned to adore him for his kindness and patience with her. I am not at all clear on what she gave to the relationship to keep them together so long, excepting for the two girls. Faith perhaps?

bellamarie

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #143 on: May 15, 2018, 02:21:04 PM »
Frybabe,  I agree, I don't think for either Vera, or Evan, it was about " being in love," it was about survival, and protection.  Some time later, I think Evan fell in love with Anya, and she felt love for him, as much as she possibly was capable of, and allowing herself to love.  She loved her two daughters as well, just did not allow herself to feel those deep feelings again.  She felt unworthy of any love.  The ending shows she was finally able to allow herself those feelings from all three of her daughters.  I wonder... had Stacey/Anya never survived and reconnected, would Anya have allowed herself to become close and feel love from Meredith and Nina?   I think the author wants the reader to think it was happening before Stacey came into the story, which seemed possible. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #144 on: May 15, 2018, 08:33:50 PM »
PatH.,  Family is what Mother's day is all about, and three generational with popovers sound just perfect!

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #145 on: May 16, 2018, 02:34:10 PM »
Well at this point I just want to shuck this story - too many ghosts in this book - the butterfly on the cover to me is now deceptive - there is no fixing the situation, if they just did this or that - it is what it is and all I get out of it is when you are responsible for life in the midst of evil there are no good choices so that no matter your choice there is nothing except bone numbing pain and no one, absolutely no one, can fix it. This was a Sophie's Choice problem and with the best intentions there is no fixing bone numbing pain.

Even if it is all tied together years and years later with understanding and learning of a different outcome, that pain is more than a scar - everytime there is an inkling of a reminder, that pain can paralyze your ability to move. What the life lesson in that is, I do not know - it all feels futile and a waste - cannot even pinpoint the evil to one thing that could be changed - it comes down to protective love or life - because in the face of evil, life is often an act of love and that life is than crippled no matter what future face you adapt for yourself and for others. The story is about the second family Anya/Vera created but, the remains of the first family found in Alaska does not tell us about the pain of loss and the wide hole of unknowing that her first family lived with - at least Leo died with his mother - Sasha dies having lived in limbo and never knowing. 

And bottom line Vera and Evan were never married which begs the discussion what is marriage - a man-made legal devise for responsibility and property rights? Love has nothing to do with 'marriage' - to care for another out of love is not necessarily a legal matter.  The question of life in the face of evil exploits the normal or at least easy expressions of love.

Did not like Sophie's Choice and do not like Winter Garden - both leave too many unanswerable questions of bone numbing pain - the best thing that can be said is, too bad we have to have these explanation to make acceptable these aspects of humanity that show up in our families - I have liked how the morning show personality Robin Roberts says, 'everyone has something'. I'm not comfortable thinking to be acceptable that 'something' has to be shared. Ah so... and we each have our opinions. 

So now I need to read and read some books to repair my heart so I can look at the questions of guilt, retribution, and atonement that are the theme's in The House of Seven Gables - I'll take retribution and atonement any day of the week over concluding a story that like a winter's snow only covers for a season unforgiving pain, and survivor's guilt.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #146 on: May 16, 2018, 03:52:24 PM »
Barb,  I feel some of your same frustrations.  The author did a shoddy job with trying to tie all this up in a nice big pretty ribbon in the end, although she left the wrapping paper all wrinkled and torn.  The best analogy I can come up with.  Did she cheat her readers?  Kristin Hannah has a knack for drawing you into the emotional human suffering of her characters, only to leave you feeling exhausted at the end of the book. Firefly Lane and The Nightingale left me feeling this same way.  I may take a break from not only war stories, but also from Hannah for awhile.  I myself am ready for a fictitious, romantic novel, that takes place in Nantucket, that requires no real thinking.

My sister is losing her husband to cancer, hospice has come today, and my niece their married daughter is not accepting this is their reality.  Their son was arrested for DUI and is in jail, after being there for his mother and father non stop for the past ten months, driving her to the hospital, which was thirty minutes away.  I know God has His plan all laid out for my brother in law, a Vietnam war hero, with silver stars, purple hearts and other medals.  He was at one point declared dead while in the Viet Cong as a sniper, led his entire platoon and ended up in a tree for four days, while the Vietnamese soldiers were searching right below him.  God surely saved him back then, but there is to be no saving him now, the cancer has spread throughout his entire body, thankfully he still is very aware and conscious and is still managing to sit up and watch TV.  My daughter in law's mother who is sixty-years old, just had a heart attack the day after Mother's Day.  So, needless to say, I am done with Winter Garden.  Vera and her entire family suffered at the hands of war, she survived and dealt with her survivors guilt the best she knew how.  Evan was her saving grace, and her daughters being the adults they are as the ending says, will live on knowing the truth finally, as to why their mother was the way she was.  Hopefully lessons learned, and will not be repeated. 

Reading Winter Garden and living in my reality, there is one important thing I will take away from all of this...... life is a gift, it is precious, life can not be taken for granted, and to take advantage of every opportunity you can.  I believe in marriage and love.  Maybe Evan and Vera/Anya did not start out that way, but over the years it was obvious to me they did love each other.  This story does not take away anything of my beliefs, values, and faith.  Life happens, wars happen, death happens, but in the middle.... there is a lot of joy, happiness, fun, love, and goodness, to outweigh the bad.  I don't need all of my movies or stories to answer all my questions, to be satisfied with the endings.  I'm okay with not knowing the what about this or that.  Sophie's Choice did leave me with feeling of wanting to know more, but so has many other movies and books, and all I do is say, okay, it is what it is. While working in my yard today thinking about my sister in the throws of losing her husband, and I think of him and what he must be thinking right now, and how such a war hero could kick the crap out of the Vietnamese, but can't kick cancer, I realize like Winter Garden, some things don't make sense, some answers I will never have, and life goes on........I remember going to the movies with some friend's and the ending left me frustrated and asking, "But what about...?"  My male friend looked at me and said,  "It's over Marie, that's THE END."
I laughed so hard I cried, and we still joke about it today when we go to the movies together. 

My other online book club has decided to read The Lake House by Kate Morton for our June discussion.  I sure hope it's a lighter read than this. 

https://www.amazon.com/Lake-House-Novel-Kate-Morton/dp/1451649355/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1526501140&sr=8-1&keywords=the+lake+house+kate
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BarbStAubrey

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #147 on: May 16, 2018, 04:42:10 PM »
Thanks Bellamarie for the tip on Kristin Hannah's other books - I do not necessarily look for cotton candy writers but for instance could cope with the likes of Dr. Zhivago or even Crime and Punishment, that I got stalled reading, better than this kind of sacrifice.

My thoughts and prayers for your Sister's husband and family

Looked up The Lake House and it does not sound like a walk in the park either - I've a couple of book started from our original list and think I will get back to The Hideaway and I think I will download a copy of The Tour - both sound like I can come away with something worth thinking about.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #148 on: May 16, 2018, 10:39:38 PM »
Barb and Bellamarie, I totally agree with your reaction to and assessment of the book, don't think I could have coped with it if there were anything bad going on in my life just now.

The House of the Seven Gables: it's been at least 60 years since I read it, but "guilt, retribution and atonement" makes it sound much more serious than I remember, and so far in my rereading, my memory of it as a gentle, mildly humorous tale of a supposed family curse seems to fit.  Now I have time to continue reading, I'll go through it quickly, and if I'm mistaken, I'll look for another book.  We don't need any more suffering.  But I think our main problem is going to be how wordy Hawthorne can be, even in a short  book.

PatH

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #149 on: May 16, 2018, 11:25:45 PM »
Bellamarie, I'll add my prayers to the many for your brother in law.  Although he couldn't fight his way out of the cancer, it's obvious that the courage and spirit he had in Vietnam are helping him now, to deal with his illness and make the most of the time left to him.  All honor to him, and to your sister in such a painful time.

Frybabe

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #150 on: May 17, 2018, 06:03:03 AM »
Bellamarie, I also add my thoughts and prayers for your BIL and the family.

bellamarie

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #151 on: May 17, 2018, 01:16:43 PM »
Thank you all for your kind thoughts, words and prayers. 

PatH., I do agree, we need a lighter type of read after Winter Garden, and our last couple of books.  Time to get out of the Russian war times, suffering, and PTSD, etc.  It probably did not help reading Before We Were Yours at the same time, yet another sad book about kidnapping children, taking them from their birth mothers and telling her that her baby died during birth, molestation in the orphanage etc.  Someone suggested a while back to read Lilac Girls, no thank you, no more suffering for me for awhile. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Jonathan

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #152 on: May 17, 2018, 02:57:31 PM »
Coincidence saved the book. Bringing all this woe to a happy conclusion was a literary feat. Actually, Stacey was the icing on the cake. Bellamarie was right, I believe, when she posted:

'would Anya have allowed herself to become close and feel love from Meredith and Nina?   I think the author wants the reader to think it was happening before Stacey came into the story, which seemed possible.'

A happy ending had come about with Anya telling it like it happened rather than go on with the fairy tale. But all those lost years...how sad.

You're right, Barb. It's going to take several books to get this one out of one's mind.

Pat, how about Charlie and the Chocolate Factory? By Roald Dahl.

Frybabe, thanks for all those informative links.

But it was a fascinating read. Should we start over? Was it ever explained why they didn't go to Alaska twenty years earlier, in response to the invitation?

bellamarie

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #153 on: May 18, 2018, 10:23:35 AM »
Jonathan, Indeed it was a fascinating read..... had real life issues not plagued me at this time, I may have dealt with all this sadness differently.  It brings to mind.....

Ecclesiastes 3 New International Version (NIV)
A Time for Everything

3 There is a time for everything,
    and a season for every activity under the heavens:


2     a time to be born and a time to die,
    a time to plant and a time to uproot,

3     a time to kill and a time to heal,
    a time to tear down and a time to build,

4     a time to weep and a time to laugh,
    a time to mourn and a time to dance,

5     a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
    a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,

6     a time to search and a time to give up,
    a time to keep and a time to throw away,

7     a time to tear and a time to mend,
    a time to be silent and a time to speak,

8     a time to love and a time to hate,
    a time for war and a time for peace.


Anya, Meredith, Nina and Stacey's time was to finally become a family, before their mother died.
Bittersweet...... now for our book club, it's a time for a light fun read, to get us out of Russia, war and sadness.

I bought a few used books at the library last week: 
Family Album by Penelope Lively     "A flawlessly constructed mini-epic."   __The Telegraph

One Fifth Avenue by Candace Bushnell   "Bushnell is. . . the philosopher-queen of the social scene."  __New York Times Book Review

Even This I Get To Experience by Norman Lear  "Norman Lear could never write a more dramatic, touching, or funnier tale of his life than he's done in Even This I Get To Experience."  __Carl Reiner

PatH.,  Let us know what you decide for our next read.  Take your time, it seems we all need to thaw a bit, from Winter Garden.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #154 on: May 18, 2018, 12:27:25 PM »
Jonathan
Quote
Was it ever explained why they didn't go to Alaska twenty years earlier, in response to the invitation?

Nope, it was just passed over, like many other things that leave you wondering, why the author didn't give more clarity.  It would have been a perfect time for Anya to explain to them about the letter, and why she chose not to go, when they decided to take the trip. The daughters never asked, and she never offered.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #155 on: May 18, 2018, 12:57:17 PM »
With so many dangling issues I really think this could easily have been a trilogy - and yet, frankly with the subject matter, I'm not sure I would read it - one book was enough even if there are dangling unanswered questions.

Looks like we have another school shooting south of Houston - my gut says these kids are copycatting along with their answer to the confused life they may be living - sorry, I know, judgemental on my part but anyone living in a mobile home park is more than likely living with a lot going on in their life - and now is not like years ago when cities were smaller and folks knew each other and took kids under their wing - today kids get lost in the shuffle and everyone is buried in the smart phone even the kids who could use the caring arm of an adult in their neighborhood who could have been a support.

My pet peeve is so many now are judgemental and are quick to find fault and share a viewpoint that is hopeless - we have lost our knee jerk ability to both, lean on faith and to put a positive face on everything so that new ideas can take hold and everyone can move forward as a caring community. I think another is the disappointment and feeling of loss that we struggle with over learning how many of the institutions we looked to for direction and comfort are riddled with deviant behavior and so we often feel like lost orphaned children. Its like neighbors that made up our close knit communities have lost their way and do not know how to cope with today's reality.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #156 on: May 19, 2018, 10:42:29 AM »
These school shootings are out of control, and I personally think the news media gives way too much coverage to the shooter, wondering if it gives others the thoughts of five minutes of fame, causing copy cats, of these horrible tragedies.  We have to consider more security in our schools, and possible have only one entry into the schools with metal detectors.  Don't know if I have any answers to help prevent these shootings.

Well, today is the big day, the Royal Wedding of Prince Harry and Meghan Markle who will have the title of Duke and Duchess of Sussex.  I have been following the Royal family since Princess Diana's wedding day.  I've read tons of books on her and the royals, and have the entire Ashton Drake Princess Diana doll collection, a beautiful plate that plays the music of Elton John's The Rose, and my hubby actually gave me a replica of Princess Diana's beautiful blue sapphire diamond ring from Danbury Mint, for an anniversary gift a few years back, and the replica of HRH Duchess of Cambridge Kate Middleton's diamond bracelet from Danbury Mint.  So, needless to say I have set my DVR for the entire event at St. George's Chaple in Windor today.  Anyone else watching?
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
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BarbStAubrey

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #157 on: May 19, 2018, 11:03:41 AM »
Yes, was up in time for the very beginning - do not remember Prince William and Kate's wedding being that long but it was just a wonderful warm celebration - he looks at her with such love and kindness and awe and the message of the sermon was spot on for today.

Yes I too think metal detectors However, when I mention that solution I get push back from teachers saying it is like a prison but thinking on it - do not want to argue but is flying going into a prison and is going into the larger public libraries or the UT library or most art museums walking into a prison environment, all requiring a walk through a metal detector plus a backpack exam and no backpacks carried in some of these public spaces.

I cannot think of another answer - even arming a teacher the gunmen would shoot to kill the teachers first and we are certainly not training every child and supplying them with a weapon - there is no getting rid of guns - after all this talk on automatic weapons this was a simple shot gun no automatic anything. The problem it is like gorilla warfare where the assailant can walk in as any other student and no one is the wiser.

As much as teachers are rebelling against a closed campus with metal detectors after Sutherland you have to think of places of public worship as well. Because like you Bellamarie I do think it is copycat behavior for their 10 minutes of national attention that I think is to say - so there - to all those who they feel slighted them. Over a hundred years ago these kind of kids would have become gun slingers like Billy the Kid in order to carve out their attention getting behavior.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Tomereader1

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #158 on: May 19, 2018, 01:10:35 PM »
I had found a line (in the Winter Garden) which, to me, perfectly explained the lack of communication between Nina, Meredith and Vera.  I turned the corner down on the page, ( I know, my bad), but when I went back for it, it wasn't there.  I don't think I could handle re-reading this just to find the quote.  I liked the book regardless of all the "missing links" (explanations) in the story.
My current reading includes "Brunelleschi's Dome", a mystery by Ruth Ware, and just beginning for f2f book club,  "Dictator" by Robert Harris-a novel about Cicero.  Is that an eclectic list or what?  LOL
The reading of a fine book is an uninterrupted dialogue in which the book speaks and our soul replies.


André Maurois

Frybabe

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #159 on: May 19, 2018, 04:17:55 PM »
TomeReader, I could have sworn I have Dictator in my TBR pile somewhere, but I can't find it. I did read Robert Harris's novel, Imperium, which is a fictionalized account of Cicero's life as seen through the eyes of his slave Tiro. I also read Anthony Everitt's biography, Cicero, the Life and Times of Romes Greatest Politician. After reading that, I wasn't sure I liked the guy much. However, I did like reading his letters which we were translating in Latin class last year. Let me know how you like Dictator.

Bellamarie, I can see a reluctance to use metal detectors in schools. Just think of the thing going off every time a student walks through with all their jewelry, piercings, keys, cell phones and tablets, etc. The students would have to do like in the airports, put everything into a basket and pass through before picking up their stuff again. In large schools, that could take a considerable amount of time.