The Joy Luck Club ~ Amy Tan ~ Book Club Online for July ~ August. Opens July 16

[BarbStAubrey]

 The Book Club Online is the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

The Joy Luck Club by Amy Tan

 "Powerful as myth." —The Washington Post Book World

"Beautifully written...a jewel of a book." —The New York Times Book Review

The Joy Luck Club won the National Book Award and the L.A. Times Book Award, and was made into a movie in 1993.



"Powerful...full of magic...you won't be doing anything of importance until you have finished this book." —Los Angeles Times

 Comment on Goodreads:  "I know this is really late, but I think this book would be perfect for a book club. I really wish I was buddy reading this with someone so I could..."


"Wonderful...a significant lesson in what storytelling has to do with memory and inheritance." —San Francisco Chronicle

Tentative Discussion Schedule:

  Week III: July 30- August 5 Chapter 3: American Translation

  Week IV: August 6-12  Chapter 4: Queen Mother of the Western Skies



Get a leg up this July and August  on the  PBS Great American  Reads voting in October by discussing  one of the candidates: The Joy Luck Club.

Be swept away into a different culture and world,  while at the same time examining how our lives and families are shaped by stories handed down which may or may not be true. 

How well can we  really ever know somebody else, no matter how long we've known them?

Join us for a wonderful trip to a strange culture...or is it?

 Thank you, Barbara.

[BarbStAubrey]

Beautiful thoughts shared in your post hats - of course had to look up and find the symbol of a peach blossom

The peach of immortality in Chinese mythology can make people perpetually young. The sacred tree of immortality (longevity) is a peach tree. In Chinese Taoist mythology, the peach of immortality grew in the garden of Hsi wang mu; “Queen Mother of the West”. “Queen Mother of the West” (Hsi Wang Mu), in Taoist mythology of China, is queen of the immortals in charge of female genies (spirits) who dwell in a fairyland called Xihua (“West Flower”).

http://www.chinasage.info/symbols/flowersandfruit.htm#XLXLSymPeach

Interesting on the main page it says; "the four virtuous plants are Spring: orchid or magnolia, Summer: peony or lotus, Autumn: chrysanthemum and Winter: plum or bamboo. These make up the four ‘flower tiles’ of Mahjong."

[bellamarie]

Well, I spent the entire day gone, having lunch with my high schools gals, visited my Aunt, and then spent the rest of the day with my younger sister, who just lost her husband six weeks ago.  Finally got home, and came in to read your posts, and all I can say is, WOW!  Ginny, Barb, and Hats, the three of you make some really valid points, and like Ginny said, I think we could spend a month on this section.  It is packed with so many things to discuss.  Unfortunately, I am going to have to start fresh tomorrow morning, I am just way too tired to tackle this with droopy sleepy eyes, and a tired brain.  So, let me sleep on this, and I'll have lots of time tomorrow, with it being a no grandkids day,to post.

[hats]

Barb, thank you for information about the Peach of Immortality and the Queen Mother of The West. The painting and the link are beautiful. I can't wait to spend time with the link.  Bellamarie, I'm glad you're back again. I don't blame you. After having gone out, I would want to sleep first too. Then, I could gather my thoughts. By the way, good morning.

[bellamarie]

Good afternoon all!  I finally finished the four sections, and I am a bit frustrated with all these mothers and daughters. 

Pg.  147 The epitaph:  "This mirror sees that mirror__haule!__multiply your peach-blossom luck."  "What is peach-blossom luck?"  The mother smiled, mischief in her eyes.  "It is in here," she said, pointing to the mirror.  "Look inside.  Tell me, am I  not right?  In this mirror is my future grandchild, already sitting on my lap next spring."
And the daughter looked__and haule!  There it was: her own reflection looking back at her.

Rice Husband  (Lena & Ying-ying)

I don't know much about "peach luck," or a mirror at the foot of a bed bouncing back all your marriage happiness, turning it the opposite way, but what I do know is, as a married woman, I do not want my mother or anyone else buying me things to place in my bedroom.  My bedroom is my sanctuary, and has all things that I have chosen to be in there to bring comfort to my hubby and I.  A mirror over my bed bought by my mother, expecting it to bring her grandchildren, is just a little creepy for me.  These Chinese mothers, seem to get away with a lot of boundary crossing, for the sake of their made up Chinese beliefs.  As we have learned, Ying-ying seems to be able to see things before they happen, yet does not ever do anything to prevent them from happening. 

pg. 151 I remember something else she saw when I was eight years old.  My mother had looked in my rice bowl and told me I would marry a bad man.

"Aii, Lena,"  she had said after that dinner so many years ago, "your future husband have one pock mark for every rice you not finish."

Oh, as my Italian Grandmother would say, "Mama Mia!"  It's no wonder Lena becomes anorexic and bulimic as a teenager.  After living with a mother who constantly made her feel so little and unworthy, does it not surprise us that Lena would marry Harold, who says to her, "I don't think I've ever met another woman, who's so together . . ."  He is incredibly controlling, keeping the money separate. 

pg. 157  "I wouldn't want a handout any more than you'd want one.  As long as we keep the money thing separate, we'll always be sure of our love for each other."

Not allowing her to move up in the company she suggested he start, paying her less, but expecting her to pay equal to him in everything they purchase.  Red flags every where, yet Lena can not see any of this, because her mother has raised her to feel so unworthy.

pg. 156 All I can remember is how awfully lucky I felt, and consequently how worried I was that all this undeserved good fortune would someday slip away.  And I think that feeling of fear never left me, that I would be caught someday, exposed as a sham of a woman. 

But recently, a friend of mine, Rose, who's in therapy now because her marriage has already fallen apart, told me those kind of thoughts are commonplace in women like us.  "At first I thought it was because I was raised with all this Chinese humility."  Rose said.  "Or that maybe it was because when you're Chinese you're supposed to accept everything, flow with the Tao and not make waves.  But my therapist said, Why do you blame your culture, your ethnicity?  And I remembered reading an article about baby boomers, how we expect the best and when we get it we worry that maybe we should have expected more, because it's all diminishing returns after a certain age." 

pg. 163  "She become so thin now you cannot see her." says my mother.  "She's like a ghost, disappear."

Hmmm..... and where was Ying-ying when Lena first began using her not eating, as a way to control her own life?  I am so frustrated reading this....Ying-ying and Lena refuse to do anything to prevent things from happening, when the table falls, Lena says, pg.165 
"It doesn't matter,"  I say, I start to pick up the broken glass shards. "I knew it would happen."  "Then why you don't stop it?" asks my mother.
And it's such a simple question.

Like mother, like daughter. 
 

[bellamarie]

I am beginning to wonder if Amy Tan wrote this book as a Self-help book for mothers and daughters, of what NOT to do in your relationship.  These daughters lack so little self esteem, self worth, self confidence, and independence as adults.  I seriously believe that as a parent you must allow your children to make their own mistakes, let them see cause and effect, let them experience the losses and the wins, and allow them to know, you are there for them if needed, proud of them no matter what, and that your love is unconditional.  These four mothers, have from the beginning, placed conditions on their love, for their daughters to earn.  It is so sad.

I agree with the therapist... "Why do you blame your culture, your ethnicity?"
It seems like we are always looking for someone, or something to blame.  Yes, these mothers are dealing with their cultural ways, and yes, they think what they are doing is protecting and helping, but this author tells us they also know when they are purposefully hurting their daughters.  These daughters are grown now, as the saying goes, "Put on your big girl panties, and cope with it."

[BarbStAubrey]

I think it is helpful to realize as children the mothers were not taught bounderies - they did not even have boundaries over their own body - so I am inclined to give them a break and be happy they came through their ordeal with a desire to care about, care for and protect their daughters - and for a guy to not love and respect what a wife's mother has to offer - ouch.

Again I may not be a good contributor to this conversation - having known childhood sexual abuse and having to work through these issues for nearly 40 years now I see the lack of appreciation in the story for what these mothers can offer and where they are coming from - it only reminds me how the public has still no clue and have no idea what it is like to have no control over their own body that reacts regardless the mental gymnastics you go through to make it stop - and so to live with that and no therapy as these mothers are doing is to me bigger than all the work of a Mother Theresa - and it only makes me angry that here we have guys in this story showing their true colors - sheesh - I really think for all our sake I better bow out of this... thanks everyone -Sorry Ginny this turned into something where I feel the sting of public lack of knowledge and understanding that put me in a bad place taking a few sleepless nights to get past - thanks everyone...

[bellamarie]

Barb, I am so very sorry this story has caused you sleepless nights. I understand completely, you feel you must leave the discussion, for personal reasons.  We will miss your insightful posts, research and knowledge you have been sharing.     

 

[ginny]

 What wonderful, thoughtful posts, thank you all.

My knee jerk response:

Am I the only one who sees the mothers doing this behavior as a desperate attempt to matter in their daughter's lives? I think that is the prime reason.

And they are doing the only thing they (the mothers)  know how to do.

I'm not assigning blame to anybody for anything. I think this is an overt manifestation of very common desires. The fact that these mothers lack ...the education and the resources for whatever reason...to act differently or more...what's the word....acceptably in our eyes does not lessen their need here in the book to do it.

I am sorry to hear this book also has pulled unpleasant memories out, Barbara,  but I don't think their behavior is solely caused by past trauma, and the reason I don't is that I know people without past trauma who do the same thing, for the same reasons,  and they are a lot more prevalent than we think.

That's not to say that trauma does not induce this or leave lasting memories, and behavior, we all know it does and are not minimizing it. and I'm heartily sorry for it. I did not see any child sexual abuse here, I will need to reread it again.


I am saying that I know for a fact that people without past trauma in their lives but also without the resources or ability to do differently ("he will not go beyond his father's saying," (Robert Frost Mending Wall) "and he likes having said it so well he says it again..." fall back on what they know. And what they know here is not only the Gates and the Feather and the Peach Blossoms and the Queen, uniquely  Chinese, either. Yes it's Chinese, but it happens in other cultures, too, without those props.


As far as anorexia goes, all anorexia is a desire to control, period.  It's one of the few ways a person can control their lives: what they put in their mouths. Control and reaction to trauma in the daughter's cases is not the same thing. I believe that these  daughters are not traumatized by a nagging mother, but the ones choosing not to eat  are showing her who is boss.

I see desperation to be important again, set off by the author's having the daughters having said the contrasting themes of how important their mother's opinions used to be to them, how the daughters felt the mothers  saw right through them, (I've heard mothers say that to their children, it's a matter of control), how they seek to be the all wise one, still, in their daughter's lives.

That's my take on it, it's something in varying degrees which to me spans cultures, it  has more to do with  the mother's having a lessening role in their daughters lives than being strictly Chinese, tho that does seem to provide an easy platform to fall back on.

[ginny]

 Wonderful thoughts here today, and all are appreciated.

Thank you,  Barbara, for this peach blossom luck explanation:


The peach of immortality in Chinese mythology
can make people perpetually young.
The sacred tree of immortality (longevity)
is a peach tree.
In Chinese Taoist mythology,
the peach of immortality grew in the garden of
Hsi wang mu; “Queen Mother of the West”.


“Queen Mother of the West” (Hsi Wang Mu),
in Taoist mythology of China,
is queen of the immortals in charge of female genies (spirits)
who dwell in a fairyland called Xihua (“West Flower”). 

http://www.chinasage.info/symbols/flowersandfruit.htm#XLXLSymPeach

Interesting on the main page it says; "the four virtuous plants are Spring: orchid or magnolia, Summer: peony or lotus, Autumn: chrysanthemum and Winter: plum or bamboo. These make up the four ‘flower tiles’ of Mahjong."

Isn't that something? THERE is not only the peach blossom but the Queen Mother of the West, which is the title of  Chapter 4, Queen Mother of the Western Skies. So that leaves us the first two chapters, and Barbara has already explained the Feather,  so I have to ask what is  Chapter 2's title in aid of?

And could, just possibly, all these be somehow related  Mahjongg tiles? Wouldn't THAT be something!!??  Probably too much to ask.

[bellamarie]

Ginny, 

I did not see any child sexual abuse here, I will need to reread it again.

I agree, no where, did I feel Amy Tan gave us, the reader, the indication any of these four mothers or daughters, were sexually abused in their childhood.

Ginny,

I don't think their behavior is solely caused by past trauma, and the reason I don't is that I know people without past trauma who do the same thing, for the same reasons,  and they are a lot more prevalent than we think.    Yes it's Chinese, but it happens in other
cultures, too,

The author is letting us know by her own words the mothers are over stepping, over bearing, over controlling, and do indeed want to brag about their daughters, and will do things on purpose, knowing it will hurt or shame their daughter.  These girls have a clear vision of who their mothers are, and their motives, as far as what we have read up to this point.  I would like to think at some point in time the author takes us in a direction that can give us better clarity, and understanding, but, if the last chapters gives us a happily ever after feeling, I am going to be very disappointed, because I just don't think in reality a mother and daughter can go through life with these type of relationships, and tie up the stories in a pretty bow.  I have family and friends who have these type of relationships, even after their mother has died, they still will talk of their hurt and pain they felt because their mother did not accept them for who they were.  Freud, would have a field day with these mothers and daughters.  Amy Tan has even chosen to tell us readers, not to use them being Chinese, as an excuse for this behavior. Again, Rose's therapist says, "Why do you blame your culture, your ethnicity?"

Ginny,

As far as anorexia goes, all anorexia is a desire to control, period.

Eating disorders are indeed about control.  My daughter suffered from anorexia, and going to counseling with her, talking with her doctors and gaining much knowledge, it is about control.  When they feel they have lost control of so many areas in their lives, they then resort to the one thing no one can force them to do, and that is "eat."  Lena's mother telling her she will marry a no good man if she left rice in her bowl, was so very, very sad. Dr. Phil has done many shows on this, and it is incredibly sad to watch these girls sit and say they are fat, when in fact their bones are jutting out.

If we recall, Ying-ying's wish from the Moon Lady, "was to be found."  I suspect if Lena could see the Moon Lady,  her wish would be the same.

 

[ginny]

 This is an interesting thought, Bellamarie:  I am beginning to wonder if Amy Tan wrote this book as a Self-help book for mothers and daughters, of what NOT to do in your relationship. '

I might be wrong, it's been a  long time since I've read this but I believe in subsequent books it's revealed that Amy Tan's mother (somewhere I thought I saw that Amy Tan's Chinese name was Mei, like Jing Mei) is the mother here of Jing-Mei, and did have to leave two babies behind. I think at least some of this may be (correct me, somebody ) semi- autobiographical. I think she is writing what she knows, the mythological stories and how they are woven by the mothers into American culture.

American Translation: these stories  can't be translated, that's the whole point, perhaps? There are always things that don't translate.

Bellamarie brings up the mirror over the bed. I didn't quite get the meaning there, she looked into the mirror to see the grandbaby and saw herself. How do you all interpret this? It's certainly a tasteless move on the part of the mother, we all know where babies come from, and maybe a desperate one.

Hats, I agree: One of the changes each woman here experiences is not letting go. They know now about loss of things and people. They have been to the altar of sacrifice. Rereading the Joy Luck Club is becoming more meaningful each day.

Letting go. Until I read your post I never considered that neither will let the other go, will they?

But recently, a friend of mine, Rose, who's in therapy now because her marriage has already fallen apart, told me those kind of thoughts are commonplace in women like us.  "At first I thought it was because I was raised with all this Chinese humility."  Rose said.  "Or that maybe it was because when you're Chinese you're supposed to accept everything, flow with the Tao and not make waves.  But my therapist said, Why do you blame your culture, your ethnicity?  And I remembered reading an article about baby boomers, how we expect the best and when we get it we worry that maybe we should have expected more, because it's all diminishing returns after a certain age." 

Bellamarie seems to have a knack for hitting on live wires in this thing. Here the question is why do you blame your culture, your ethnicity?

Why not? People use all kinds of excuses, not many are anywhere near this exotic, for not doing things, for not dealing with things. I can't do XXX I  have a live in cat. I can't do YYY I have dogs. I can't do ZZZ because...because...because.... If you want an excuse, being inundated by this colorful and exotic Chiese culture is really a good one, I think.  Am I wrong?

And I remembered reading an article about baby boomers, how we expect the best and when we get it we worry that maybe we should have expected more, because it's all diminishing returns after a certain age." IS this so?

Diminishing returns. I just read that the happiest people are those in their 60's and 70's with the 70's being the most contented with their lives. Diminishing returns...what a statement.

Maybe it's the opposite. Maybe if you didn't expect to wake up a billionaire at 60 you won't feel those "diminishing returns?"

Oh and don't you love the fact that two of the girls are now friends just making their own Joy Luck Club type of thing and competing with each other? I absolutely LOVED the little competition  over the submitted ad, just loved it.

[bellamarie]

Ginny,

I didn't quite get the meaning there, she looked into the mirror to see the grandbaby and saw herself. How do you all interpret this?

My interpretation of Lena seeing only herself when she looked into the mirror, was just like the other  Chinese myths being debunked.  These daughters question the myths, because they are American, they don't believe, and they don't buy into the myths, also, because they see these Chinese myths, seem to always benefit their mother, and keep them in charge of their lives in some way.

Hats, you are so right about them not letting go.  Even the daughters, as much as they fuss and complain, they still live close to their mothers, invite them over, want their approval, etc., etc.  It's a normal feeling I think we all experience at some point in our lives with our children as they grow up and away from our homes.  I will share a very funny story about my mother not wanting to let go. 

When I was engaged to be married, I told my mother that I would be moving to Toledo, Ohio my hubby's hometown, just thirty minutes away from our hometown of Monroe, Michigan.  Now mind you, my mother saw Toledo, as another planet.  I had been stricken with infectious hepatitis weeks before my wedding day.  So just a few days before my big day, my mother says to me, "You can go ahead with the wedding, but you can not leave the house to go live with him until you are well."  I was aghast at her saying this.  I went to the phone, called our family doctor, and told him what she had said.  He first laughed, then said to me, "You tell your mother, I have heard of a lot of different ploys from mothers trying to keep their daughters at home, but this one is certainly the most unique ever.  You  most certainly are well enough to go live with your husband in Toledo, just keep your appointments with me." My mother had six girls and one boy, and wanted every one of us to live in the same small hometown as her. 

[hats]

Words and culture have power. There is no guarantee that these visible or invisible strengths will lead to understanding. Different ways of suffering have led to a loss of hearing. More simply the women and daughters are sliced by using the knife named a lack of communication. I think Ginny spoke of this lack earlier. This leaves us who choose to peek into their homes frustrated. Like Barb,
you wish to throw up your hands and go away from it. Because although words are not communicable they are still able to destroy our insides with pain.

My mother knows how to hit a nerve. And the pain I feel is worse than any other kind of misery.

I see the daughters fighting to forgive their mothers. The daughters are the ones feeling the need to pull away and make new worlds. However, the mothers due to years of trauma and further lacks of translation are less vulnerable. Perhaps, this is why their anger shouts the loudest to me. All need Feng Shui. This is balance. Maybe this is what the mothers are wanting for their daughters. They want them to experience balance. Balance there, Chinese culture, balance here, American culture. This is as difficult to achieve as speaking the American language. In one part of Amy Tan's novel, there is an inability to translate two words into English. The words most likely mean confusion and foggy. Both mothers and daughters are screaming for help. The men are getting a baptism not asked for in exact terms. Perhaps, marriage has brought them more challenges then ever expected. Like the daughters, they find themselves ill prepared to deal with what's going.
There is a limited amount of relaxation. We have come away from our worlds where culture is always under threat, where husbands refuse to understand and where dreams rarely come completely true and where some times there is a wish for a Mr. Chou to bring us many dolls, more choices. Is it better to have the chance just to listen or to find ourselves in the center of the storm? The truth is we will take part in both places before this life is ended. I haven't taken time this week to live again through our family's misunderstandings and arguments. There have been brutal ones. Ones where I only knew how to pick myself up and run or just stand and cry. Is it true? The saying is if it doesn't kill you,...

[bellamarie]

Oh shucks!!!  I left my computer to go do some laundry, and came back to continue posting and found out my time had expired to modify my post.  Ginny if you could be so kind to delete my one above this I would greatly appreciate it.  I will post it in it's entirety now.  Thank you.

I was curious about where in these eight stories, we have read there was sexual assault/abuse, so I researched many different sites that discussed this entire book, and could not find anything, that would give a direct place, that directly said anyone of these eight women were actually sexually assaulted or abused.  Yes, one of the mother's were forced to marry into a family of social standing, but she did not even consummate the marriage because he was "like a little boy," and she tricked her way out of the marriage, without ever being touched by her husband. The one thread that runs through this book for all four mothers and daughters is "sexism," and not only by the men in their lives, which we saw clearly in Lena's marriage, but also in the work place.

I'm wondering if the movie touches more on sexual abuse/assault?  I have not watched the movie, but intend to once we finish the book.  I don't want the comparisons and spoilers to sway my first impressions, as I continue to read.

Four Directions  (Waverly and Lindo)

Waverly is divorced and is ready to marry again to Rich.  She is afraid to tell her mother for fear she will not accept him.  pg. 167 "Why are you so nervous?"  my friend Marlene Ferber has asked over the phone the other night.  "It's not as if Rich is the scum of the earth.  He's a tax attorney like you, for Chrisssake.  How can she criticize that?"  "You don't know my mother," I said.  "She never thinks anybody is good enough for anything."

Waverly invites her mother to her house so she can see Rich's clothes, and belongings lying around to indicate to her they are already living together. Lindo does not say anything, accept insults the mink jacket Waverly shows her Rich has bought her.  pg. 169  "This is not good," she said at last.  "It is just leftover strips.  And the fur is too short, no long hairs."  "How can you criticize a gift!"  I protested.  i was deeply wounded.  "He gave me this from his heart."  "That is why I worry," she said.  And looking at the coat in the mirror, I couldn't fend off the strength of her will anymore, her ability to make me see black.  The coat looked shabby, an imitation of romance.

This was so hurtful of Lindo.  Why take the JOY away from her daughter?  Does Lindo think she is the ONLY person who can give her daughter JOY and love? 

Waverly comes up with a plan, to use her Auntie Suyuan to get her mother to invite her and Rich to dinner, by dropping by her Auntie Suyuan's house to eat with them, knowing Suyuan would go back and brag to her mother about having them there.  It works and Lindo does invite them to come to dinner. 

pg. 176 I knew she would do this, because cooking was how my mother expressed her love, her pride, her power, her proof that she knew more than Auntie Su.  "Just be sure to tell her later that her cooking was the best you ever tasted, that it was far better than Auntie Su's,"  I told Rich.  "Believe me,"

I immediately thought.....O, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive! Walter Scott

Her little plan backfires, pg. 178  But the worse was when Rich criticized my mother's cooking and he didn't even know what he had done.

This entire dinner was a fiasco, but what occurs the next day is probably the most vulnerable and touching part of this entire book:

Waverly finally gets up the nerve to tell her mother after she saw her mother on the sofa thinking she is dead.  She panics. 

Pg. 180 "Ma!"  I said sharply.  "Ma!"  I whined, starting to cry.  And her eyes slowly opened.  She blinked.  Her hands moved with life.  "Shemma?  Meimei-ah?  Is that you?"  I was speechless.  She had not called me Meimei, my childhood name, in many years.  She sat up and the lines in her face returned, only now they seemed less harsh, soft creases of worry.  "Why are you here?  Why are you crying?  Something has happened!"  I didn't know what to do or say.  In a matter of seconds, it seemed, I had gone from being angered by her strength, to being amazed by her innocence, and then frightened by her vulnerability.  And now I felt numb, strangely weak, as if someone had unplugged e and current running through me had stopped.
"Nothing's happened.  Nothing's the matter.  I don't now why I'm here,"  I said in a hoarse voice.  "I wanted to talk to you. . . I wanted to tell you. . . Rich and I are getting married."  I squeezed my eyes shut, waiting to hear her protests, her laments, the dry voice delivering some sort of painful verdict.  "Jrdaule"__I already know this__she said, as if to ask why I was telling her this again. 

The two of them go on to talk and Waverly realizes her mother does not hate Rich, and wonders why she would think she would hate her future husband  Here is where the lack of communication is so vivid.  Waverly tip toes around her mother for fear of pain and disapproval.  She is confused and says,

pg 182 "I just don't know what's inside me right now."  "Then I will tell you, she said simply.  And I stared at her.  "Half of everything inside you," she explained is Chinese, "is from your father's side.  This is natural.  They are the Jong clan, Cantonese people.  Good, honest people.  Although sometimes they are bad-tempered and stingy.  You know this from your father, how he can be unless I remind him."  Why is she telling me this?  What does this have to do with anything?  But my mother continued to speak, smiling broadly, sweeping her hand.  "And half of everything inside you is from me, your mother's side, from the Sun clan in Taiyuan.'  "We are smart people, very strong, tricky, and famous for winning wars."I shook my head.  And although I still didn't know where this conversation was going, I felt soothed.  It seemed like the first time we had had an almost normal conversation.

pg. 183 And really, I did understand finally, Not what she had just said.  But what had been true all along.  I saw what I had been fighting for: It was for me, a scared child who had run away a long time ago to what I imaged was a safer place.  And hiding in this place, behind my invisible barriers.  I knew what lay on the other side:  Her side attacks.  Her secret weapons.  Her uncanny ability to find my weakest spots.  But in the brief instant that I had peered over the barriers I could finally see what was really there:  an old woman, a wok for her armor, a knitting needle for her sword, getting a little crabby as she waited patiently for her daughter to invite her in.

This truly brought tears to my eyes.  How beautiful these two could finally take a moment to be vulnerable with each other.

[bellamarie]

Hats, 

All need Feng Shui. This is balance. Maybe this is what the mothers are wanting for their daughters. They want them to experience balance.

It's interesting you bring up, "balance,"is this what the mothers are hoping for, with their interference in their lives?  Reading Rose's story I get the feeling, An-Mei not only wants balance for Rose, but she wants her to stand up for herself, find inner strength, trust in her and her own decision making, to find her own joy. 

Without Wood  (Rose and An-Mei)

Rose's marriage has fallen apart, much like the gardens her husband kept perfectly tended, which have now gone to weeds.  Rose is passively accepting Ted dictating the way they will split up their assets, and allowing him to send her a check to tide her over.  An-mei is concerned and suspects Ted is having an affair. She questions her as to why she is not standing up for herself.

pg. 188 "Why does he send you a check?"  "He is doing Monkey business with someone else."  "No, I don't think so," I said.  "Why not?"  "I don't think we should talk about Ted now, not here."  "Why can you talk about this with a psyche-atric and not with mother?"  "Psychiatrist."  "Psyche-atricks."  She corrected herself.  "A mother is best.  A mother knows what is inside you," she said above the singing voices.  "A psyche-attricks will only make you hulihundu, make you see heimongmong."  Back home, I thought about what she said.  And it was true.  Lately, I had been feeling hulihudu.  And everything around me seemed to be heimongmong.  These were words I had never thought about in English terms.  I suppose the closest meaning would be "confused" and "dark fog."

pg. 191  My mother once told me why I was so confused all the time.  She said I was without wood.  Born without wood so that I listened to too many people.

This was an interesting article about the Taoist's Five Elements:

Chinese Taoist cosmology is structured on five, not four elements: fire, earth, metal, water, and wood. These five elements are the basis of Chinese metaphysics and philosophy and have practical applications including feng shui, astrology/astronomy, and traditional Chinese medicine.

Wood

The element wood is masculine and considered less yang than fire. Wood’s planet is Jupiter, the largest planet, symbolic of wood’s growth in springtime. Wood’s season is spring, the time of planting seeds, beginnings, and new growth. Wood corresponds to the three earthly branches of springtime: Tiger (February), Hare (March), and Dragon (April). Wood’s direction is east. Wood’s position on the feng shui ba-gua represents ancestors and family relationships. Wood’s symbol is an azure Dragon.

Although wood is a less yang element, it can exist in either a yang or a yin state. When wood expresses masculine yang energy, its color is green and is symbolized by a pine tree-sturdy, upright, and enduring. When wood expresses feminine yin energy, its color is blue and is symbolized by the flexible bamboo that gently bends with the wind.

Wood qualities are bold actions, planning, initiating new projects, idealism, imagination, compassion, and competition. Wood types possess decision-making skills and the ability to create change. From an Asian perspective, the go-getter, do-or-die, pioneering spirit of American culture is very wood. The challenge for a wood type is to learn to control anger and channel it into positive work that benefits all people.

The emotion associated with wood is anger. Other wood emotions are tension, criticism, discouragement, regret, excitement, dislike of self and others, negative judgment, and repressed anger related to thwarted affection.
________________________

Rose is finally listening to her mother, she does not sign the divorce papers, or cash the ten thousand dollar check.  Ted is shocked she has finally decided to do their divorce her way, and keep their house.  It is good to see Rose find her inner strength.  I liked the Old Mr. Chou dream in the end where she sees her mother was planting weeds in her garden.  I see this as a semblance that weeds take root, and no matter how many times you pull them, they come back in other places.  Sort of like Rose and her newfound courage, she has decided to be strong, come back from this ruined marriage, and take charge of her own life.   

[hats]

Bellamarie, I will lengthen my answer you have quoted. Silly me, here it goes. I should have written both daughters and mothers wish balance from one another. There is where the lack of communication happens. The word balance or some such word  is never mentioned. Also, the daughters wish for that equality or Feng Shui within their marriages as well. I hope equality is a good word to use in the place of balance. The older I get the more words are not remembered. Perhaps, they have never been known. I think Ginny describes and writes perfectly what I am trying to write here. What's required in translation in the above situation or in any situation is a willingness to emphasize or communicate. We're losing that in this country, I think. We immediately fly into a defensive fury, we don't even try to see the other side. I love this book for showing me this. Ginny loves the book ; I love her translation of the book. By the way, I'm not really happy with my use of the word equality.

[hats]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIh07c_P4hc Ordinary???

[bellamarie]

Hats,  That's a sad video.  I like the message in John Legend's song, take it slow, don't react so  quickly.
Ginny, Makes a perfect point,"We immediately fly into a defensive fury, we don't even try to see the other side."

With these daughters being American, they just don't understand the Chinese language or ways.  They want their mothers to accept them for who they are, "American."  The mothers in turn want the daughters accept them, and know them for who they are, "Chinese."  I like how An-mei told Rose she is part her father, and part her mother, they each being Chinese.  For once Rose took the time to hear her mother, with all her defenses down, even when she did not understand the Chinese symbols, An-mei wrote down, Rose still listened to her message.  Trust in your mother and yourself, not all the other outside people who does not know her inside.  For me this was one of the most beautiful scenes in the book.

Hats, your choice of words are perfect, I understand fully what you are saying.  Everyone hopes that in their marriage there will be the balance, equality, Feng Shui, unfortunately for Rose and Ted, they both went into their relationship, and marriage thinking if they "balanced the income 50/50, then their relationship would be good.  No marriage or relationship is ever 50/50 all the time, some times we have to give more, and when money is the major factor from the start of a marriage, I feel it is doomed.  Love should be the most important thing in the beginning, throughout and to the end of every marriage.  Ted treated Rose this way because she allowed it, she allowed it because she thought it was okay and fair.  When he sent her the ten thousand dollar check to tide her over til the divorce is final, she thinks that he sent it because he truly loved her.

pg. 192  Then I got a little sentimental and imagined, only for a moment, that he sent me ten thousand dollars because he truly loved me; he was telling me in his own way how much I meant to him.  Until I realized that ten thousand dollars was nothing to him, that I was nothing to him.

Again, it was the "money" that she measured her self worth, love and fairness on.  Once she realized that was nothing to him to write her a ten thousand dollar check, it finally sank it.  Without her mother questioning the check in the first place, Rose may have never realized that the money value was attached to her own self worth.  There is no doubt about the fact Ted is a creep, and I feel sorry for the next woman who ends up with him.  But Rose is going to be just fine!

[ginny]

I am really enjoying this discussion. I thought after reading  Hat's post on Mr. Chou and the dolls and this statement: I see the daughters fighting to forgive their mothers. The daughters are the ones feeling the need to pull away and make new worlds. However, the mothers due to years of trauma and further lacks of translation are less vulnerable. Perhaps, this is why their anger shouts the loudest to me. All need Feng Shui. This is balance. that there was really nothing I could say or add to that one, it blew me away but then Bellamarie followed with some insights on wood (thank you very much) and this which  I had not noticed about 
Waverly: In a matter of seconds, it seemed, I had gone from being angered by her strength, to being amazed by her innocence, and then frightened by her vulnerability.  And now I felt numb, strangely weak, as if someone had unplugged e and current running through me had stopped.

In in that moment the balance of power changed, and the all powerful parent became what she was, and Waverly saw her for the first time. I think it happens to everybody? Perhaps?

an old woman, a wok for her armor, a knitting needle for her sword, getting a little crabby as she waited patiently for her daughter to invite her in.


And so now the issue is, WILL her daughter invite her in, and the answer is not long coming.

That IS a beautiful moment, Bellamarie,  a turning point for Waverly and her mother, and perhaps it's one of the acts of kindness I was asking for, but it's not the one I was thinking of.

To go back to my original questions, I want to answer one:


1. What is the kindest act by any person in this chapter?

2. What does the title "American Translation" mean?  Who or what is being translated?

3. Have any of the characters in this story changed? Who and why?

4. What did you make of the "peach blossom luck" little parable at the beginning of this chapter?

5. What do you think the green jade pendant means?


To me, it's right at the end of  this same subchapter, Waverely's  Four Directions, the last several paragraphs where Waverely and Rich are thinking of going to China and Lindo, her mother, says "I am thinking of going back then too," and hastily corrects herself saying "Of course not with you.." and then after Rich says that would be great, and makes some pleasantries about what she could save them from, she says "No this is not my meaning. I really am not asking."

And I know what she really means. She would love to  go to China  with us. And I would hate it. Three weeks; worth of her complaining about dirty chopsticks and cold soup, three meals a day--well it would be a disaster.


Yet part of me thinks the whole idea makes perfect sense. The three of us, leaving our differences behind, stepping on the plane together, sitting side by side, lifting off,  moving West to reach the East. "

THAT to me is one of the most beautiful passages in the book. That  is love, right there.  That is forgiveness which Hats mentioned, too, it's all coming together.

The title of the subchapter is Four Directions and I love what the author did here titled American Translation in moving from the West to the East.

Just brilliant writing. That's one of the 4 daughters, what of the rest?

I travel a LOT and I know how miserable, absolutely miserable the wrong companion can be on a trip. Ruins it. Waverly knows, too and still she considers it. Impressive.

I see these mothers as survivors.  I don't see that any of them, not one, have repeated the traumatic events on their children which  they suffered themselves, and that alone takes a lot of effort.

So lacking positive examples in their own lives, they fall back on other things.    No, they are not our picture postcard mother, (if she exists)  one of them is a Tiger Mother, we have those today, pushing their children to be prodigies. None of them are perfect but neither are we.

Yesterday's  British newspaper i which I like to read had the  Quote of the Day as

"The dead might as well try to speak to the living as to the old to the young."  (Willa Cather)

I think that American Translation captures that beautifully along with the difficulties of translation from one Chinese culture to the American experience.

Great book. Great discussion, I'll be baaack to comment more on what you've said.

 (That video made me so sad, Hats. It shows the difficulty communicating, the effect on children and possibly why you should never push anybody in an argument. We're just ordinary people, it says. What a sad thing.  At least they appear to  try to make up.  We're much too prone to anger and violence in this country, we lack self restraint. I am sorry that's ordinary. I think he meant everybody feels these emotions and acts them out, sometimes inappropriately, but things can and should work out for everybody's sake.  I hope he's not condoning it?) What did you get from it?




 

[bellamarie]

Ginny, Good Morning!  We were posting at the same time, which tells me this book is one of the first things that was on our mind today.  I too loved how Waverly and Rich decided to postpone their wedding til July, so they could go to China with her mother.  That was huge!!

I think my computer has a mind of it's own, moving, deleting, text disappearing.  Grrr....

Ginny, you ask about change. Change is a slow process.  You have to be open and acceptable, in order for change to happen.  I see these daughters and mothers, are finally listening and hearing each other,  they are finally "communicating in spite of their barriers!"  So, yes, in some ways, each of them are gradually changing. I'm finally, seeing hope for all these relationships.

I go back and forth on how I feel about this book.  There have been times I have been so frustrated I want to throw it against the wall, there are times I have found it informative, there are times I have wanted to scream at these mothers and daughters, and also cry for the way the mothers lives were before coming to America.  There are times I have thought it will rank up there with some of my favorite books I have ever read, and to be honest, there I times I have felt it to be redundant.  It probably will not be up there in the top ten favorites of mine, but it won't be forgotten for a very long time.

[ginny]

I totally agree with you. And that begs the question what IS a "good book?"

I also agree with the Goodreads poster that this is a perfect book for a book club discussion. I think so  simply because it's so complex and deals with so many issues which are just as important today as they were 30 years ago. It's WE who have changed, not the book.

I was somewhat startled to see on Goodreads, too, in another  review I think it was for Howard's End, one of the reviewers chastising the other's dissing of the book very strongly, saying something like "not every book is about YOU."

Is THAT our opinion of a "good book?" That it's about US? That it contains something WE can relate to? Do we read to find US?

Fascinating questions. But one thing is for sure, I think:  this thing is a BOOK!

[bellamarie]

Ginny, I don't think when I read a book, or even consider if it is a good read or not, I consider myself persa.  I look for how well written it is, does it convey a message, does it allow me to be in touch with the characters, and is there enough interest to keep the reader to want to continue, to finish the book. Sometimes I can tell in the first chapters, sometimes I have to be willing to go beyond those first dry or slow chapters, and then sometimes, I get to the ending and feel let down, and ask myself, why did I waste my time.  I used to think I had to complete every book I started.  No more!!  I give myself permission to stop at any time it is doing nothing for me.

The Joy Luck Club is a very complicated book.  Just keeping the right daughters, with the right mothers from the very beginning, presents a challenge to the reader.  Breaking it up into these vignettes, is also challenging.  It being redundant is challenging, then we have all the different issues each character is dealing with, is challenging.  Being lost in translation, is challenging.  But, for me, I also find it informative, and well written, believable, and can see the author in parts of the characters, which makes me think it is a bit, autobiographical, before ever reading an article, which Amy Tan admits to.  I can't wait to see how Tan ties up all the loose ends, and bring this book to a close.  But before I can go on, there is one last daughter's story to discuss.  Jing-Mei (June)

[bellamarie]

Best Quality (Jing-Mei/June and Suyuan)

Five months ago, after a crab dinner celebrating Chinese New Year, my mother gave me my "life importance," a jade pendant on a gold chain.  I stuffed the necklace in my lacquer box and forgot about it.  But these days, I think about my life's imortance.  I wonder what it means, because my mother died three months ago, six days before my thirty-sixth birthday.  And she's the only person I could have asked, to tell me about life's importance, to help me understand my grief.  I now wear that pendant every day...

Jing-Mei sees others with a similar pendant and asks where they got it and they say their mother, but they really have no idea what it means either.

pg. 202  I was not fond of crab, every since I saw my birthday crab boiled alive, but I knew I could not refuse.  That's the way Chinese mothers show they love their children, not through hugs and kisses but with stern offerings of steamed dumplings, duck's gizzard, and crab.

Waverly and June have a tit for tat at the dinner table, and Suyuan says to Waverly, pg. 206 "True, cannot teach style, June not sophisticate like you.  Must be born this way."  

June is humiliated when she hears her mother say this.  As they clean up the kitchen, they talk about why her mother never uses the dishes June gave her, and she says,
pg. 208  "Of course, I like, she said, irritated.  "Sometimes I think something is so good, I want to save it.  Then I forget I save it."

Then Suyuan gives June the necklace and June does not want to accept it, she thinks her mother is only giving it to her because of what happened at the dinner table.

pg. 208.  "You're giving this to me only because of what happened tonight."  I finally said.  "What happened?"  "What Waverly said.  What everybody said."  "Tss!  Why you listen to her?  Why you want to follow behind her, chasing her words?  She is like this crab."  My mother poked a shell in the garage can.  "Always walking sideways, moving crooked.  You make your legs go the other way."  I put the necklace on.  It felt cool.  "Not so good, this jade," she said matter-of-factly, touching the pendant, and then she added in Chinese:  "This is young jade.  It is a very light color now, but if you wear it every day it will become more green."

I was curious about what meaning a green jade had with the Chinese and found this:

Jade
The jade is important in Chinese culture and has many meanings such as bringing balance, blessings, a new life, spiritual beliefs, beauty, and to keep bad chi away.
Jade seems to be the most popular choice in Asian cultures when it is used as "feng shui" cures. Various carvings are engraved to represent different meanings in life.
It can come in many forms and sizes of jewelry for example, earrings, bracelets, rings, and necklaces. Jade is actually two separate gems: nephrite and jadeite. In China, a pierced jade disk is a symbol of heaven.
https://prezi.com/9d5yyfxpnkqc/the-meaning-of-the-jade-pendant/

I feel Suyuan gave Jing-Mei that pendant that night, because she wanted to show her how much she accepts her for who she is, she loves HER, she does not have to compare herself to Waverly, or anyone else.  In Suyuan's eyes, Jing-Mei is the BEST QUALITY daughter, a mother could ask for.  She said:

pg 208  And then she continued in Chinese.  "For a long time, I wanted to give you this necklace.  See I wore this on my skin, so when you put it on your skin, then you know my meaning.  This is your life's importance.'

This brought tears to my eyes, because when my mother died, my older sister was in charge of her estate.  I was sitting in my sister's living room waiting for the rest of my sisters and brother to come so we could go through my mother's personal belongings.  My sister came up to me and said, "I have something I need to give to you."  Puzzled, I looked at her and asked what it was?  She took and placed a jewelry box in my hand and I opened it.  Inside was my mother's diamond necklace and matching diamond stud earrings, she wore every day.  I was shocked!  I said, "Are you sure I am suppose to have these?" Patricia, my sister said, "Yes, Mama left a book with all the items she wanted to make sure each of us received, and put our name along side the items."  She showed me the book, and where the diamond set was written down in my mother's own handwriting, and my name along side it.  I asked, "Why would she leave these to me?"  I had never felt like a favored child.  I had older sisters who I would have considered more worthy, or at least more expected to be given these diamonds to.  I knew my mother never had expensive jewelry all her life, and in the past few years before she died I had noticed her wearing this beautiful set, and told her how beautiful they looked on her. My mother never looked for compliments, and the smile on her face, made me feel so loved that day. When I wear her diamonds, I feel her so close to me.  They are very special, so like Suyuan, I have put them in a special place, and sometimes forget to wear them.  I think I will get them out and place them with all the rest of my every day jewelry, so I remember to wear them more often.  My biggest fear has been, I will lose them when I wear them, and feel empty and lost.  My mother gave me my grandmother's wedding band the year she was going to remarry, and it came up missing.  I never had the heart to ever tell my mother I no longer had it.  So, when I received her diamonds, I vowed to never lose, misplace, or give anyone the opportunity to take them from me.  I was almost certain my young nephew stole that wedding band when he housesitted for me.  My neighbor told me months later, her son admitted to them stealing it and hocking it for money.  It broke my heart to think he would do that to me.

Ginny, I don't always choose books for "me," but sometimes, books find a way to be for "me."   
 

[ginny]

What a beautiful story, Bellamarie, that's lovely about the diamonds. I think there would be something wrong somewhere if a person could not relate in some way to this book, it seems to cover a lot of bases.

I think what the poster wrote to the other reviewer who had given an awful sort  of self centered review of Howard's End (not a book that echoes many modern experiences) which pretty much consisted of her not being able to relate to it,  that the admonition was read it for the wonderful book it is, it's not about YOU every time.

I don't think that's the case here at all. If we do find something in a book which really resonates with us as this has you, that just makes it a great experience.

I hope you prosecuted those boys before they got ensnared in  a life of crime.

[hats]

Reading the posts and thinking and thinking about each one. The song by John Legend seems to sum up, for me, how much all people are alike. We may look different but those basic emotions are the same. I think this is why there are different races in the video. Whether we admit it or not in marriage and in earlier life moments there is sadness, pride and the need to make our voices heard. In the end,

we are just ordinary people

struggling with life as it comes upon us suddenly like a storm that is not in the forecast. What makes us different from one another is culture. This is one reason I am enjoying the novel. It brings the beauty of Chinese landscape shared with us in words by Amy Tan and by Frybabe with the pictures of that land. There is the Peach Blossom Song and the meals and much more that is different from where and how we have lived or live. Perhaps, culture identifies us more than skin color. Skin color proves we are just Ordinary People.

[bellamarie]

Good morning! 

Ginny, no, we did not prosecute, because I had no proof.  The neighbor who told me, was the mother of one of the boys, who I am sure would not testify against her own son. The other boy being my nephew, we let it go.  We had already had family issues with my hubby's brother and his wife (the parents of the nephew) so we did not want to add to it.  Their son did go on to cause them much pain and expense, and now that he is grown and has kids, all three of his sons have followed in his footsteps, one just was killed in a car accident a year ago due to drugs and drinking, the other two have been in and out of jail and rehab, more times than I can count.  He attempted to let them live with him after they would get out of jail or rehab, and they continued to steal from him.  It's sad, but yet it seems it came back full circle, and continues to this day.  I don't think us not pressing charges would have altered his life choices.  His parents allowed him to break the law, skip school, do drugs, and never gave him consequences.  Like the scripture says..... "Spare the rod, spoil the child."

Hats, Yes, I agree, when you get right down to it...... we are all, just ordinary people.

I am going to read the remaining sections of the book, so I will be ready to discuss it on Monday. Ya'll have a great day!

[hats]

Good morning! I also need to finish for Monday. I also need to try and read through comments I have missed. I love gems. So, I am anxious to read about the Jade. As I have read the chapter, I notice that Waverly's mother, Lindo Jong, changed a great deal. Waverly tells clearly how much her mother, Lindo, has changed. The part I'm pondering is the invisible wall Waverly says her mother has erected. I suppose an invisible wall is more deadly than one we can see. If you can't see it, how is it possible to climb, or how is it possible to look over? I am sure there are walls in my life. I am thinking walls are put up out of fear. The idea of a lack of communication comes up again. If only it were possible to quietly over dinner or after dinner talk about why we are this way, and why we are that way. If that were possible maybe we would climb to a new level of the pyramid. It all shows life is a learning process, and we can't speed through life. It takes time.

[ginny]

Oh well said on Ordinary People, Hats. The shock to me in travelling is how alike we all are, all of us, no matter where we live or how exotic a situation.

Bellamarie, I'm sorry to hear that, and of the sadness in that family.

I also need to read for Monday, and I appreciate both of you sticking with it to the end!!! The Three Musketeers, or maybe we need a Chinese title, make up our own legend hahha now that we've come through, ourselves, survivors of this complicated complex book.  As Bellamarie said, The Joy Luck Club is a very complicated book.  Just keeping the right daughters, with the right mothers from the very beginning, presents a challenge to the reader.  Breaking it up into these vignettes, is also challenging.  It being redundant is challenging I agree: it's  not a normal book club read, I think, hard to keep up with, and it's hard to discuss a book you haven't read, particularly this one, so it has its own...sort of trial by fire.

For instance, until I read Bellamarie's post on the Wood, I had totally missed the sub chapter title Best Quality and what it meant.

But this morning I was looking at my (now) worn copy with the pages askew and very few pages not marked or underlined...have never SEEN so many quotable quotes in my life in a book....and feeling somewhat sad to realize that this time next week I won't BE picking it up and sinking into this magical fantastic world she has created, and I'll miss  your comments, too. Honestly, Hats, you chose a good one for your debut among us and I'm sure glad you did, you and Bellamarie have astounded me by your insights.  And yes, I am  STILL having to write next to each daughter's chapter, who the mother was and something of her life so I can keep it straight. Even now.

But I don't want to leave Chapter 3 without talking about some of the many quotes we've not had time for.

(But first: Bellamarie, where are  you seeing this redundancy you speak of?)

Hats started it this morning, tho, with this in "invisible walls:"

The part I'm pondering is the invisible wall Waverly says her mother has erected. I suppose an invisible wall is more deadly than one we can see. If you can't see it, how is it possible to climb, or how is it possible to look over? I am sure there are walls in my life. I am thinking walls are put up out of fear. The idea of a lack of communication comes up again. If only it were possible to quietly over dinner or after dinner talk about why we are this way, and why we are that way. If that were possible maybe we would climb to a new level of the pyramid. It all shows life is a learning process, and we can't speed through life. It takes time.

So I'm now thinking all the mothers have an invisible wall, maybe we all do in response to trauma? It protects us? Or so we think.   Why, do you think, can't we talk about why we are this way?

Here are some of the more startling quotes in this chapter that we've not covered, that stood out to me: Lena's fear:

"Why gosh, you aren't the girl I thought you were, are you?"
And I think that feeling of fear never left me, that I would be exposed some day as a sham of a woman.

This supposedly is at the root of all those dreams of being naked in front of people, exposed for what one is, rather than what one seems to be..I found this fascinating.

And Waverly: "To our family friends who visited she would confide "You don't have to be so smart to win chess. It's just tricks. You blow from the North, South,  East, and West. The other person becomes confused. They don't know which way to run."I hated the way she tried to take all the credit. And one day I told her so...I told her she didn't know anything,  and she should shut up. Words to that effect. "

I don't think that is what her mother was doing or trying to do  in that scene, do you?

And here is Waverly at the end of Four Directions:

Oh her strength! her weakness! --both puling me apart. My mind was flying one way, my heart another. I sat down on the sofa next to her, the two of us stricken by the other."

It can be so difficult sometimes, dealing with somebody you love, can't it? The Four Directions is a great title for this feeling.  There is a wonderful book out on how to deal with your elderly parents, by a psychologist, tackling issues such as the car keys and why dad puts up such a fuss over every tiny little thing, and it's strangely healing for the elder who may be facing such decisions, too. And in this small scene  30 years ago Amy Tan beautifully explains the dilemma.

And there are SO many more, all of them applicable to any culture, any people, any time. Ordinary people.  Like us.

I'm half afraid to read the last chapter. I can't recall how it comes out after 30 years, and I'm going to be VERY interested in your take on it, good or bad.

[hats]

Yes, yes, yes. Ginny writes As Bellamarie said, The Joy Luck Club is a very complicated book.  Just keeping the right daughters, with the right mothers from the very beginning, presents a challenge to the reader.  Breaking it up into these vignettes, is also challenging. It is very challenging. I remember one mother and daughter's name. Then, the other set of names fall to the wayside. No matter, it's all worthwhile. I like the novel. Still reading posts.

[bellamarie]

Ginny

(But first: Bellamarie, where are  you seeing this redundancy you speak of?)

I just felt like the relationships of the mothers/daughters/aunts and cousins were defined and done in the first sections, and here we are again hearing about them. The Waverly/Jing-Mei tit for tat at the dinner table for example in BEST QUALITY, we have already been there done that, and now yet again, we are seeing where Suyuan and Waverly are making Jing-Mei feel less, or the need to defend herself, and her success, or lack there of, to Waverly.  It's like a thread throughout the book.  There were a few times I felt, we already have been told things, why are we having to hear it again.  Just my opinion. 

Ginny, 

And Waverly: "To our family friends who visited she would confide "You don't have to be so smart to win chess. It's just tricks. You blow from the North, South,  East, and West. The other person becomes confused. They don't know which way to run."I hated the way she tried to take all the credit. And one day I told her so...I told her she didn't know anything,  and she should shut up. Words to that effect. "

I don't think that is what her mother was doing or trying to do  in that scene, do you?

It took me a while to locate this, but if you read it, in it's entirety, pg. 170 FOUR DIRECTIONS, in context, then yes, I did think that Waverly was justified, in saying, her mother was trying to take the credit, and diminish Waverly's "gift," at knowing the secrets to the chess game.

"She used to discuss my games as if she had devised the strategies."
"I hated how she tried to take all the credit."

As you continue to read on, this actually leads up to Waverly deciding to quit playing chess.

[bellamarie]

Ginny, 

The Three Musketeers, or maybe we need a Chinese title, make up our own legend hahha now that we've come through, ourselves, survivors of this complicated complex book.

Ginny, Hats, we can be called The Three Jewels! 

Or if you prefer,  Three Old Worthies

三 sounds similar to 生, which means “life” or “to give birth” in Chinese. Chinese culture puts emphasis on family and strong, healthy children, so 生 has a positive connotation. In Buddhism, which is widely practiced in China, 3 is a significant number because it relates to the "three jewels", a foundational ideal.Oct 8, 2015
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS722US722&q=three+in+chinese&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiFkuOmsNHcAhUH9YMKHZXqAEsQ1QII9AEoAw&biw=1229&bih=585

3 Three : 三 sān
三 3  ThreeSounds like: 'san' in sanity (1st tone)
Another heng stroke adds 1 to two to make it three.

It is one of the luckiest numbers and is often found in phrases and slogans. In characters the same element repeated three times indicates very many as in 森 sēn 'forest' made up of three 木 mù 'trees'. Three represents the trinity of heaven; earth and man. The three main Chinese religions (Confucian, Daoist, Buddhist) have each 3 main teachings 三教 sān jiào. Buddhism has many trinities of objects; sayings and deities. Daoism has the trinity of Three Pure Ones. There are three friends of winter: pine, bamboo and plum as well as three lucky fruits or abundances: peach; pomegranate (sometimes lychee) and finger lemon. For centuries the San zi jing Three Character Classic was the first book children used to start writing Chinese, the exercises all had 3 characters. Village elders were called the ‘Three old worthies’.
http://www.chinasage.info/langnumbers.htm

Like we see the characters changing in these last sections, I too am finding my opinion of the book changing.  I do think it's a self help book for mothers and daughter's relationships, and it is showing how when you react without knowing, you assume someone's words mean what you are feeling, when you refuse to communicate, really listen and hear what each other is saying, you are most likely going to not know for certain the motive or the actual meaning of what is being said.  Most of these characters are "reactive."  They respond to what they feel, rather than think, and clarify what is being said.  The fact they are American and Chinese speaking, the lost in translation only makes it more difficult to give the person the benefit of the doubt. 

But, in being fair to the author's message, there is the theme of over stepping, over bearing, over protective, and crossing boundaries between these mothers with their daughters.  For what ever the reason being, it has caused rifts in the relationships.  Now that we are coming to a close, we are seeing how the author is paving a way, or shall we say building a bridge, for these mothers and daughters to come to a better place, for their future relationships.  Unfortunately, it is too late for Jing-Mei to accomplish this, although I feel in the section BEST QUALITY, it was established.  Now let's see if Jing-Mei can find her sisters in China, and if they can manage a relationship, in spite of their language and cultural differences.

Ginny states,  "The shock to me in travelling is how alike we all are, all of us, no matter where we live or how exotic a situation."

You are known as a world traveler in our group, me, not so much, so I will take you on your word, and experience.   

[hats]

Bellamarie, I will gladly accept the very positive name of Three Jewels. Many women and men love jewelry. Add me to the bunch. Bellamarie, There are three friends of winter: pine, bamboo and plum as well as three lucky fruits or abundances: peach; pomegranate (sometimes lychee) and finger lemon. For centuries the San zi jing Three Character Classic was the first book children used to start writing Chinese, the exercises all had 3 characters. Village elders were called the ‘Three old worthies’. Those fruits and bushes or trees are fit for a poem when read together at one time. Lemons are bright and have an odd shape. My father loved lemons squeezed on his fish and in his tea. Pine smells delicious. Pine Lysol, Pine refreshener and of course, Christmas trees give the chance to breathe in cool freshness. It's possible Pine can clear the mind.
Ginny asks un to think of who changes. There is Waverly, a daughter. She seems to have grown older  and wiser. Now she has the ability to see her inner self more clearly. She also has a better understanding of her mother, Lindo Jong. It is a blessed gift to become able to see ourselves and others in a true light. Waverly describes herself:

I saw what I had been fighting for: It was me, a scared child, who had run away a long time ago to what I had imagined was a safer place.

Then, Waverly describes her new way of seeing Lindo, her mother.

I could finally see what was really there: an old woman, a wok for her armor, a knitting needle for her sword, getting a little crabby as she waited patiently for her daughter to invite her in.

If I look far, far back, I can not see changes in my mother as she grew older and sicker. She waited patiently for her daughter to invite her in.[/quote] If I look far, far back, I can not see changes in my mother as she grew older and sicker. Simply because that is around the time I married and moved to another state. As for myself, yes I can see changes. Now I did not say positive or negative changes. There have been steps forward in growth and backward in growth. While my children were growing up, I laughed more. It was important for me to teach them that in every day there is a little bit of happy. After they moved away from home, I began to take life more seriously. Now I find myself trying to get back to joy. With all that is happening in the world it is easy to worry about what if...
Then, there is a lack of smile, smile, smile because life is growing shorter. As life grows shorter, the body grows weaker. This causes one to need longer time to search for something or someone who can bring back a sparkle to your side of the yard. So, listening more closely and spending more time thinking becomes a part of every day growth and still, there is a smile. I suppose no one would mind owning magic arrows like Genghis Khan owned. [q]He went to battle with Genghis Khan. And when the Mongol soldiers shot at Sun Wei's warriors --heh! -- their arrows bounced off the shields like rain on stone.[/quote]http://www.writeopinions.com/genghis-khan

[bellamarie]

Hats, 

While my children were growing up, I laughed more. It was important for me to teach them that in every day there is a little bit of happy. After they moved away from home, I began to take life more seriously. Now I find myself trying to get back to joy. With all that is happening in the world it is easy to worry about what if...

I really like this!  I am a very upbeat, positive type person.  I laugh with my grandchildren, til they bring me to tears.  My grandson knows just a way to get me in a fit of laughter, that I seriously can not stop.  There is a song that came to mind reading your post Hats, it's called, "Smile" a song based on an instrumental theme used in the soundtrack for Charlie Chaplin's 1936 movie Modern Times. Chaplin composed the music, inspired by Puccini's Tosca. John Turner and Geoffrey Parsons added the lyrics and title in 1954. 

https://www.quora.com/What-movie-has-the-song-with-the-lyric-smile-though-your-heart-is-breaking

Here is the music: 
https://youtu.be/jl7jxT_Aurg

Lyrics to the music:
Smile
Nat King Cole

Smile though your heart is aching
Smile even though it's breaking
When there are clouds in the sky, you'll get by
If you smile through your fear and sorrow
Smile and maybe tomorrow
You'll see the sun come shining through for you
Light up your face with gladness
Hide every trace of sadness
Although a tear may be ever so near
That's the time you must keep on trying
Smile, what's the use of crying?
You'll find that life is still worthwhile
If you just smile
That's the time you must keep on trying
Smile, what's the use of crying?
You'll find that life is still worthwhile
If you just smile
Songwriters: Charles Chaplin / John Turner / Geoffrey Parsons
Smile lyrics © Bourne Co.

[hats]

Bellamarie

Crying. Don't know what to say. Nat King Cole, Diana Ross and Charlie Chaplin all together. My goodness! It's fitting. Needed it. Thank you again.

I really like this!  I am a very upbeat, positive type person.  I laugh with my grandchildren, til they bring me to tears.  My grandson knows just a way to get me in a fit of laughter, that I seriously can not stop.  There is a song that came to mind reading your post Hats, it's called, "Smile" a song based on an instrumental theme used in the soundtrack for Charlie Chaplin's 1936 movie Modern Times. Chaplin composed the music, inspired by Puccini's Tosca. John Turner and Geoffrey Parsons added the lyrics and title in 1954. 

[ginny]

Love the smile theme, Hats, and Bellamarie!

They do say that if you put a smile on your face for  no reason, during the day,  (obviously not in  a crisis),   it makes things go better and improves your mood and things somehow seem brighter.  (Either that or you look like the Joker in the Batman movies), hahaha, but I have found it does seem to help us think of happy things, who knew?  We need to  use the smile muscles more.

Love the Old Worthies or Jewels, Bellamarie!! Great suggestion.

Let's be the Two Old Worthies (you two) and One Old Crock (me) and I can go with that!

hahaha

I WAS going to put our symbol enlarged in red, but something stopped me, remembering Pearl Buck's books and sure enough, to write a person's name in RED in Chinese is BAD BAD BAAAD luck! Who knew?

So I won't be doing that!

World traveler? No I'm not a world traveler. I have been lucky enough to go all over Europe each year for the past 35+ years without tours and stay a pretty good while each time but I will never ever get to see and do  it all. All I can say is, as Hats so eloquently put it in her post, time is growing shorter: if anybody has a vague interest at all in travelling anywhere,  don't put it off, go while you can still navigate and enjoy it, the clock is ticking. Every year I fear it's my last, and one  year it will be. Making plans now, however for the next one.

I do see, now, Bellamarie,  what you are saying on the redundancy.  I thought at first these bits had some meaning, some clarification, or contrast to the previous bits, and I'm not sure they don't, but that defeats me at the moment. She may, having switched narrators 8 times, (or is it 7?) just be trying to let us know which one now we're dealing with. Like Hats, I find this a challenge.

  The author is always present for me in this book, I am not sure if that is good or bad, but she is.

I thought this was interesting: and it is showing how when you react without knowing, you assume someone's words mean what you are feeling, when you refuse to communicate, really listen and hear what each other is saying, you are most likely going to not know for certain the motive or the actual meaning of what is being said.

Yes and therefore there is not going to be any communication at all, either, in any language. I thought that was  a super point, lots of layers here of miscommunication. I just read that Khrushchev did not pound his shoe and say we will bury you, what he said was we will outlast you and the translator got it wrong.

On Weverly's mother's remarks about her prowess in chess, I  may have read too many Pearl Buck books, but modesty in her books is a Chinese trait and no parent would brag to others in front of the child (tho somebody else did, I need to go back and find that)  about her daughter's prowess in chess if they were Chinese lest she be cursed in some way, they would say oh anybody can do that, and I think that's what Waverely's mother was trying to do: keep the bad luck away. I don't think for one minute she was trying to take credit for chess mastery, she had none, and I am not sure Waverley understood her motive there.

But now on to the last chapter, I find I have totally forgotten after 30 years how it turns out and am eager to see!

[bellamarie]

Ginny, yes, go back and read it in it's entirety.  We have Waverly's words to go by, and clearly the author wants us the reader, to see how Waverly felt like her mother was indeed trying to take all the credit.  Now again, we have to consider the "lost in translation."  Waverly does indeed let her know in other parts of the stories that she doe NOT, have any mastery skills in chess.  It's something Waverly knows she and she alone has the gift, and has done ALL the research to become an expert at the game.  This is one area of Waverly's life she is adamant about NOT allowing her mother to take any credit, to the point of deciding to stop playing any more.  Waverly states:

"She used to discuss my games as if she had devised the strategies."
"I hated how she tried to take all the credit."

What her mother's intent is/was, we can only speculate, because the author does not give us clarity into Lindo's thoughts.  We the reader can take it as, just a proud mother bragging, but we can't discount the author giving us Waverly's feelings, and how she is expressing them vehemently. 

I've read Pearl Buck's books as well, and Lindo is far from being modest. IMO 

[hats]

Ginny

I WAS going to put our symbol enlarged in red, but something stopped me, remembering Pearl Buck's books and sure enough, to write a person's name in RED in Chinese is BAD BAD BAAAD luck! Who knew?

I had no idea about the red either. Glad you gave that information in your comment.

Bellamarie,

Your comments about Waverly and Chess are wonderful. Usually, I think of Chess and my family. Now, I will always remember Waverly. I think further back Bobby Fischer is mentioned. Remember him? Some one might have mentioned him. He made, I thought, in the book a very chauvinist remark.

[bellamarie]

These last sections are rough to read.  I can see if Barb read ahead, why she felt she needed to drop out of the discussion.  Ughh..... be back tomorrow with my thoughts.

[ginny]

Bellamarie,

I think Barbara mentioned she was barely into Chapter 3, I can go back and read that, but I believe that's what she said.

Really? I must admit the last scene brought tears to my eyes which surprised me.

And here's something you won't ever hear on the Internet, to the point that it's now a joke: I was wrong.

I was wrong about Waverly's mother, she did brag but you were wrong, too, in why she quit chess.  So we're both wrong.

She got angry with her mother about the seeming to want all the credit for the chess success and staged a strike. She is clear she did not quit for this reason: "Of course I did not mean to quit forever." Page 171 in the American Translation chapter.

She won her mother back when she became ill, but when she recovered she discovered her mother had changed.

 "She no longer hovered over me as I practiced different chess  games. She did not polish my trophies every day. She did not cut out the small newspaper items that mentioned my name. It was as if she had erected an invisible wall and I was secretly groping each say to see how high and wide it was..." and so when  Waverly began playing chess again, her mother remained uninterested and  unsupportive,  and Waverly began  to lose her games. She lost and lost and finally quit when a boy whom she had beaten twice before beat her twice.

 That's the reason she quit chess, she did not have her mother's pride in her work, her mother's support and, ironically, her mother's bragging...Because the one depended on the other, they were co dependent,  in my opinion.  I still don't think, with no provable reason, that trying to take the credit is  why her mother bragged on her. But the teenager did, no one is disputing that. Teenagers think a lot of things which are not true.

 The strange irony here is her losing seems to suggest she DID owe her mother, because when her mother lost all interest,  she began to lose.

I've read an article on Amy Tan and all I can say is her real life and history  was a lot more stressful than anything we're reading here:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2001/mar/03/fiction.features