Author Topic: The Joy Luck Club ~ Amy Tan ~ Book Club Online for July ~ August. Opens July 16  (Read 19923 times)

ginny

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 The Book Club Online is the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.



The Joy Luck Club by Amy Tan

 "Powerful as myth." —The Washington Post Book World

"Beautifully written...a jewel of a book." —The New York Times Book Review

The Joy Luck Club won the National Book Award and the L.A. Times Book Award, and was made into a movie in 1993.



"Powerful...full of magic...you won't be doing anything of importance until you have finished this book." —Los Angeles Times


 Comment on Goodreads:  "I know this is really late, but I think this book would be perfect for a book club. I really wish I was buddy reading this with someone so I could..."



"Wonderful...a significant lesson in what storytelling has to do with memory and inheritance." —San Francisco Chronicle




Tentative Discussion Schedule:



Week II: July 23-29 Chapter 2:    The Twenty-Six Malignant Gates

  Week III: July 30- August 5 Chapter 3: American Translation

  Week IV: August 6-12  Chapter 4: Queen Mother of the Western Skies



Get a leg up this July and August  on the  PBS Great American  Reads voting in October by discussing  one of the candidates: The Joy Luck Club.

Be swept away into a different culture and world,  while at the same time examining how our lives and families are shaped by stories handed down which may or may not be true. 

How well can we  really ever know somebody else, no matter how long we've known them?

Join us for a wonderful trip to a strange culture...or is it?

 
May 13 is our last day of class for the 2023-2024 school year.  Ask about our Summer Reading Opportunities.

ginny

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What wonderful posts here, thank you  ALL!

Welcome Barbara!

See, this is just what I was talking about, the difficulties of communication and how it depends on knowing the background for real understanding of what's being said, in translation.

Here we have the real meaning of the Feather from a Thousand Li Away, the first chapter in the book. IF we were Chinese, doubtless that would immediately have rung a bell, but we're not, but thanks to Barbara and Amy Tan, now we, too, can enjoy this rich story.

So it wasn't a Swan on the boat to the US at all. But in the US story, the swan was taken away by border security, perhaps like the ability of the mothers to communicate the old Chinese ways to their daughters, most of whom, I am willing to bet,  don't know the origin of that story any more than we do. Our bodies are full of Coca-Cola too and  not Chinese stories, or for that matter, many stories of our own past heritage, some of us.

That one thing makes this so much more a rich experience to me, thank you, Barbara.

So how are the daughters to learn these famous legends,  if they are not told?

And how are they to be told in English when it has to be perfect English? Who has created the problem then?

This story is SO rich in layers, it's a perfect book club read.

I want to respond to everything everybody has said, but it will take a while and it will be long, sorry, I  know I introduce a  million subjects at once but I'm hoping that there will be SOMETHING in what I write that YOU can pick up on individually and want to talk about.

Just consider me one of O Henry's Four Million, if you know what that is, and pick out something that suits.

Wonderful stuff, Barbara!
May 13 is our last day of class for the 2023-2024 school year.  Ask about our Summer Reading Opportunities.

ginny

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This Monday we'll move to Chapter 2, and there we'll be startled to hear 4 different perspectives about the same  women, from their daughters. What fearful revelations await?

There used to be a TV show called The Naked City? Or something like that and this guy would say in a deep voice as the screen showed what I thought was NYC,  "There are 8 million stories in the Naked City and this has been (is?) one of them." That's kind of how I feel about this book, but it's obviously not haphazard or scattershot, it's been done with a rigid structure which organizes it. Otherwise I think it would have been out of control.

Bellamarie, you really did a JOB on that analysis of the 4 women and what they had in common, I have to take my hat off to you, that was a lot of work!

For all their different stories they seem to  have a lot in common which is probably why they stay in the club, somebody with a shared experience, who moved to America, and the difficulties of communication (welcome, PAT, that's a great point) with their daughters and not only them.

One wonders then where this is going? I really love the depth here while at the same time she is really talking about  us. We're not Chinese,  but we may as well be, sometimes,  in trying to convey to another generation the essence really beyond the facts of what we...have been, have seen, and are.
May 13 is our last day of class for the 2023-2024 school year.  Ask about our Summer Reading Opportunities.

ginny

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And that's a very good point,  Bellamarie in how children of one family see that family differently. What sadness there is in that. Can anything ever be done to rectify that?


Here we have 4 women making a club and telling their story hmmm but they each have a daughter - if there are only the one daughter in each family than the 4 and 4 does equal 8.



Wonderful point on the symbolism in Chapter 1, Barbara!

And then it occurs to me.  They are frightened.  In me, they see their own daughters, just as ignorant, just as unmindful of all the truths and hopes they have brought to America.  They see daughters who grow impatient when their mothers talk in Chinese, who think they are stupid when they explain things in fractured English.  They see that joy and luck do not mean the same to their daughters, that to these closed American- born minds "joy luck" is not a word, it does not exist.  They are daughters who will bear grandchildren born without any connecting hope passed from generation to generation.


What an insightful point, Pat! Frightened, of course, and since they are now nearing the ends of their lives, they are afraid it needs to be told before the end. Gosh if you made a list of the emotions in this thing it would stretch a mile.

Can you imagine how it is, to be neither inside nor outside, to want to be nowhere and disappear?

Hats, what a great quote, you could talk about that a long time,   I love your perspective on what this is about!

I've been on a nostalgic trip, myself, remembering stoops, etc. But even that was not without negativity and scorn, such as when one had not appeared for the washing of the stoop, they were put down, what a silly thing as Jonathan says about cultures of belching that some customs are, imagine having to wash (and there was no water source in the front of the houses that I recall) stone steps every day or face the condemnation of all.

I would like to say as a society we've come beyond that, going on appearances, but I don't think that's true, I think it's the opposite, actually.

I loved your take on Suyuan, Jonathan, I thought that was brilliant, even if it turned out not to be true. :)


I loved this: Where is this book taking us? It has to be more than coincidence. I found an inexpensive, used, airport edition for a buck. What an extraordinary bargain. What has me wondering are the two boarding passes in the book, going and coming. With date, seat, and flight numbers. but no destination. Are they chapter headings or short story titles in the table of contents? Just look at that last one:A Pair of Tickets!!

The posts here are almost as good as the book!

O Henry wrote,  as I said,  The Four Million, in which short stories  he shows some of the people living in a large city. "The Gift of the Magi" is one of the stories in it, a very famous tale.

 It's part of a set I inherited of my father's, from the early 1900's.  I looked it up, curious about the value, and found listings everywhere of the set, one on  etsy wanted $120 for the 12 volume matched set, in good condition, but green cloth in color,  another wanted $75 for one of the volumes and it wasn't in very good shape.  Mine are leather bound. I've read pretty much all of them and they remind me a lot of our opening chapter, lots of characters, lots of backstories, all interesting.

But our book goes on.

Bellamarie, I am sorry to hear about the dry socket, you don't hear of them much any more but boy do they hurt, don't they? I think they hurt more than the toothache did.  They used to say (in the Chinese tradition of tales) that if you talked after an extraction when the weather was cold (not an issue today, is it) then you got a dry socket. Apparently an Old Wives Tale.

Having now met the 4 women and having heard as much as we've been given about them, why do you think superstition plays  such a part in their lives  AND in their conversations with their daughters?

Is that the way you talk? Why are they talking this way? Are THEY ambivalent about adapting to America, despite the appearance (perfect English) of doing so?


Bellamarie, what a beautiful post:

I loved how Lindo refuses to wear nothing but twenty-four carat gold, to show she is worthy of more than fourteen carat. She is determined to hold herself in high regard, and wants to remind her daughter and grand daughters to do the same.  I see sadness surrounding each of these women.  As I grow older, I am finding, I do feel as if my daughter and grand daughters are losing sight of who I am.  We are not as active in each others lives, and I see how their lives move on, and they have so little time to squeeze me in.  The same little girls, who made me feel like I hung the moon, and set the stars in their sky.   




May 13 is our last day of class for the 2023-2024 school year.  Ask about our Summer Reading Opportunities.

ginny

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Now does anyone have any point about the first chapter they would like to make before we move on Monday with Chapter 2?

I see that Chapter 2 also begins with a story. I hope we can figure out the relevance of it to the 4 daughters who are about to speak.

Stories, they are all telling stories, some of them which change, are stories easier to remember than facts? I can remember the swan on the boat even now better than the individual women's lives, can you?

I really don't want to see the movie. I am afraid it would destroy the magic I have already built up about these characters.

But wouldn't this make a WONDERFUL play, but performed like that one in the King and I movie? That old kind of theater? I don't know what it's called, it's almost ancient Greek Theater... the masks, the chorus.  I'd love to see it that way.

Or  I can see it almost like a hyped up Our Town with all kinds of Chinese symbolism. I'd love to see it that way.

A Yuan for your final thoughts on Chapter 1.
May 13 is our last day of class for the 2023-2024 school year.  Ask about our Summer Reading Opportunities.

ginny

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I have one more thought, actually. Hats spurred it with her talking abou the trauma they have been though. When dealing with unrelenting stress or trauma, everybody handles it differently. Just in everday life, a huge, say, deep disappointment, a betrayal or what one feels is betrayal, an overwhelming situation, everybody has a different way of dealing with it.

You can probably name a million ways you have found to cope. Some people rely on their faith, others use tranquilizers, denial, alcohol or drugs, some people withdraw entirely into a world of their own, a world in which they can find peace, but our Joy Luck Club  members,  as they said at the outset, chose to seek Joy, chose to focus on the positives, and the Hope (Luck)  in their lives, AND, the big thing they did so wisely, to do it in the company of others, that supportive social bond which seems so important to longevity and survival, in the form of a club.

We haven't yet looked at their relationships to each other.  We've just started this trip, our tickets are freshly stamped, and we're wondering when they will bring the coca colas by on the cart (do we really have to PAY for them?), but as we sit here, between  us are several hundred years of varied experiences,  just like they have... it's just that we are meeting electronically.

If I had a dollar for every person who has written me since 1998 when we started that due to the...truly  overwhelming crises in their lives, the internet has been a Godsend, I would be rich. This, in its modest, liminted way,  is  also like our own Joy Luck Club,  and every person who comes in and sits with us just adds to the richness of everybody else's experience.

That's what I got out of the first chapter, too.

What a BOOK!
May 13 is our last day of class for the 2023-2024 school year.  Ask about our Summer Reading Opportunities.

bellamarie

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Barb, How interesting it was to read about the swan feather.
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However, there is also a traditional custom to attach a feather with or on the gift. This defines the gift as Qian-li-song-e-mao, literally, a swan feather from a thousand miles. meaning a gift which may be small but, carries with it the sincere wishes of the sender.

The fact Suyuan did not feel she could give her daughter the feather until she could speak perfect English, is a bit sad, because she ended up dying, and not giving her daughter the feather, and it's significance.  If I take anything away from this it is, Don't put off for tomorrow, what you can do today. It also makes me think of the quote/proverb:  The road to hell is paved with good intentions.   How often do our daughters need affirmation from us, and we withhold those words of praise, hoping for a more perfect moment?  In our next section, when June gives her story, we will see how important it would have been, had her mother not waited to give her the feather and praise, she so needed from her at an early age.

Responding the theory
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Here we have 4 women making a club and telling their story hmmm but they each have a daughter - if there are only the one daughter in each family than the 4 and 4 does equal 8.

We already know Suyuan has twin girls, and June, so that gives her three daughters, and we learn in the upcoming section that An-Mei also has three daughters.  I think it was pointed out in the beginning, the Joy Luck Club consists of the four women, because there are four corners to the mahjong table.  These women happen to have daughters around the same ages for them to discuss and compare with each other.  Oh how I know how that works.  At our Bunco meeting each month we all had to share our children's accomplishments.  We rarely ever spoke of their struggles, which is sad because I know my daughter and my friend's son struggled with school and social issues.  It was as if it were taboo to be negative.  Once our children grew up and were making not so good choices I remember a get together, where all of us women/mothers/friends, discussing what our children were going through.  No judgement, no shame, just a sympathetic ear, a hug, with prayers for better days.   

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Ginny, we were posting at the same time.  I have to agree with this:

If I had a dollar for every person who has wrwitten me that due to the...truly  overwhelming crises in their lives, the internet has been a Godsend, I would be rich. This, in its modest, liminted way,  is  also like our own Joy Luck Club,  and every person who comes in and sits with us just adds to the richness of everybody else's experience.

While some have used the internet for not so positive, healthy ways, I have reconnected to family and friends and they have reached out to me with many issues we were able to discuss in length privately through emails and messaging.  Not that a visit or telephone call was out of the question, it just seemed they were able to write it, more than talk about it, on the phone, or face to face.  I love our very own Joy Luck Club, here at Senior Learn!!
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

hats

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Yes, I am still thinking of stoops, Ginny. Now, I have added death to my thoughts. In washing stoops I wonder were the stoops washed before the dead were taken from a home? Would washing the stoops have possibly become a part of the death ritual? At the beginning of Chapter 1, Jing-Mei talks about her mother's death. She brings up two questions. Are our own thoughts,  if not controlled,  strong enough to take our lives? Perhaps, this is why heart attacks, ulcers an aneurysms reach very high on statistical Health lists. I would say yes what we think can take our lives. Regularly I fight with negative thinking. Thoughts that make me feel very insecure. It's not an easy battle. I don't remember having this struggle as a young girl or woman. I suppose some ethnic groups are more pessimistic than other ones.

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The doctor said she died of a cerebral aneurysm. And her friends at the Joy Luck Club said she died just like a rabbit: quickly and with unfinished business left behind.

Secondly, can we die unprepared? By unprepared I mean with our life roles as mothers, daughters, wives, etc. not fully developed. It's like a premature death, if there is such a thing. Having some sense of religion and God, I've always believed he would not let me die unfinished. I would love to know the Chinese thoughts about death. Can we rest in our present state knowing when death comes it is always at the right time? I am also thinking of the Heart Doctor's accidental death this morning or last night. He was the Heart specialist for Ex-President Bush. How should we think of accidental deaths versus a long illness before death?

PatH

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Barb, thanks for all the insights from your clients.  It's a tremendous help.  Ginny points out that we have a problem of cultural translation, and this helps our efforts to understand these people as they face the same basic problems that we have, or have seen friends have, but in a context of very different expectations and possibilities.

And the story of the swan!  Think how stunning that would be if you already knew the classic story.  The little prelude is an allegory of it, as are the stories that follow.

PatH

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Hats, we were posting at the same time.  Now to go think about your post.

BarbStAubrey

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hmm Hats your thoughts on death have me thinking - off the wall maybe but I am wondering why do we like to read about the past and why do we want to tell stories of our own past - the circumstances today and what is socially acceptable along with the changes in our everyday existence make our past not much more than nostalgia for a time that is no longer...

Yes, we can share through a story of how we handled something in our own life as an example of being brave or kind or noble or loving or self-sacrificial or scared or or or or but the circumstances of our life in the context of what life was has nothing to do with our daughter's lives.

So why this urge to fill in what we think the younger members of our family need to know about us? What is it we are hoping to achieve? Because another part of this is having told some stories of my childhood, both stories of fun and joy as well as some that were scary at the time or unexpected things that happened, I do not see that we can do much more than pass on the feather - there is no way without going on and on and on to get the flavor and what was socially 'the way' that made our stories what they were. We cannot drag the entire swan or goose to these story telling moments - time and the changes that came with time took away the swan or goose and left us with a few feathers.

I remember telling a story of forgetting something as a 5 year old going to the store - no note since I could not read and no note since the shopkeeper in a store that small that no one can even picture it today, that shopkeeper did not speak either English or German which is the only language Mom could have used to write a note - but more, the question came, why at 5 was I going to the store alone - because my mother was pregnant, that ended up a few weeks later being a bad miss-carriage however, as a pregnant woman she was not to leave her house - there were no maternity dresses but more it was considered unseemly for a pregnant woman to be seen in public - Plus the store was less than a mile away on roads that were covered in cinders and not paved, where a vehicle was on the roads maybe once or twice a week and where various services were provided by folks in horse and wagon, including the milk man who came every other day -

And still with all of that the flavor of what that meant to come home without one of the items is lost because it appears to be a vignette that is outside the way of life today. It does not tell how tar held together the cinders and during a hot summer day we kids took sticks and played with the tar and to our mother's chagrin we would get it in our hair and on our clothes - we also thought the road was our playground, that each evening the group of us who lived nearby played all sorts of games - red rover, red rover, first man over and tag and near dark we used a tree to count for hide and seek - on and on - all that is built into the walk to the store and seeing other kids on the way that were not part of the nightly games so it was a huge adventure. and to come home without getting it right was like Shackleton losing his ship during his polar expedition. 

Sometimes a move gets it right but still the feelings that go with these stories are difficult for even today's directors to understand and when we share our personal life stories we are talking, not showing a movie -

And so I see us only sharing our feathers with all the good intent and sincerity of the gift to the Tang Emperor - and I guess like any gift - we give but, the receiver decides its value for themselves - actually the value is more that they were given a gift out of love not, that we were able to give them more than a feather so that, we really cannot share the experience - and to tell a story for our children or grands to look at us differently is rather strutting our stuff thinking they do not know who we are or what we have experienced. Kind of egocentric on our part isn't it -

Maybe it is about ghosts - they say life experiences that affect our personality and even our character are passed on for three generations - I'm thinking of those who have alcoholism in their family - we learn in Al-anon that the affect of the alcoholism to the family alters our perceptions of life and others and it takes 3 generations for any sort of normality assuming those 3 generations do not also pickup an obsessive lifestyle and so it would be reasonable for any experience worth our memory that we pass along the story would affect the family for good or bad so maybe that is the gift we share when we tell the stories of our past.

I'm curious now - what do y'all think is the value of our telling the stories of our past - do you really think that the younger generations cares except, it is a gift to them, coming from love - do they listen only because they love and care about us since a story - a technicolor, adventure or romance can easily be seen by simply clicking on their computer, TV or even their phone.  Are stories about the past an oddity that is for enjoyment and therefore, are our stories of our past life in the same category, an oddity?   
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Wow, Barb, your story sure brought back a flavor of the past I hadn't thought about for years.  I too wonder how much someone younger would get from it, but I think some, at least.

I wouldn't worry about what younger generations will want to remember.  This gets more important as they get older.  Think how many times you've heard someone say "I wish I'd talked to grandma, or Aunt Minnie, or whoever more while I had the chance".  Maybe our job is to talk enough, or leave enough of a paper trail, so they have at least some of it when they're ready for it.

hats

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Hi Path and Barb and bellamarie, I am very anxious to read Barb's post. Unfortunately, it is thundering and lightening. I get nervous with the computer on. So I am going to print out the post and read it. Hope the storm passes quickly. Path, I like knowing we posted together. It gives a feeling that you're just around the corner. It always worried me that my children and grandchildren might never have a clear picture of the Old Philadelphia I grew up in. One son did make it back to the neighborhood which from what I understand had quietly died. In hand, he and his lady friend didn't have many personal stories from me. I regret having my boys so close together instead of distancing their births. Then, they could have known their mom when she carried a toddler in one arm while one crawled.

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We cannot drag the entire swan or goose to these story telling moments - time and the changes that came with time took away the swan or goose and left us with a few feathers.

Barb, My stories are like your stories too. I remember time after time my parents asking me to go to the corner store to buy a bag of onions and/or potatoes or to return an item because I didn't bring the right item.
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and to come home without getting it right was like Shackleton losing his ship during this polar expedition.
I like your illustration. On those days of going back and forth to the store, I see myself as Shackleton. I wasn't a happy camper. I would love to revisit the Shackleton discussion.

I have been afraid to touch the swan feather in my post. For fear my clumsy touch might damage it. Yet, you bring it along with gentleness and intact. It is sad that we can't share all parts of our stories. Perhaps, like Jing-Mei Woo's mother's stories the endings might change each time we tell the story almost like a fisherman's tale. Still, the tastefulness of that Coca-Cola would drive away a great bit of our children and grandchildren's pain whether physical or emotional.

In the past, my grown-up young men-sons haven't heard many of my family stories. It hasn't been until late in life that I have begun to gather parts of those yarns in my head. Now as they flow quicker and quicker through my mind my family are living in different areas and quite busy. However, I remember one of the poems written down by Barb. It spoke of the language of hope. Hope is a word that stays with me this year. It means more to me than ever. Yes, I am personally aware of Alcoholism. Not myself but...I wasn't aware of the three generation time limit. Those stories, although ugly, are important too. I doubt if there is any story without purpose and worthy of sharing when we are strong enough to do so. Thinking of death again, I suppose a story can die a forever death if not whispered to others in time. Is that true or false? Also, your mother's story of pregnancy reminds me of the Historical value of our stories. Times change. New ways come and go and come again.

I can't wait to see how these daughters stories will meet up and greet the mothers stories.

Jonathan

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Welcome to the matriarchal society. Popo is a dragon. 'All my life, Popo scared me.' says An-mei about her grandmother. Her widowed mother got out to save her life. What a revealing statement from An-mei:

Now I could imagine my mother, a thoughtless woman who laughed and shook her head, who dipped her chopsticks many times to eat another piece of sweet fruit, happy to be free of Popo, her unhappy husband on the wall, and her two disobedient children. I felt unlucky that she was my mother and unlucky that she had left us.'  Off to be someone's concubine. The lesser evil.

Ginny asks: 'Why do you think superstition plays such a part in their lives?' That's getting to the heart of the problem. Jing-mei, born in America, talks about her mother's  'Chinese superstitions'. Perhaps it's something else. Perhaps it's Chinese wisdom. Her sisters in China will, perhaps, one day, help her to understand their mother.

I sense a proccupation with Feng Shui in Barb's Chinese clients. How to live in harmony with the universe. Isn't this fun. What a read!!

hats

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Jonathan, thank you for reminding me about Ginny's question about superstitions. I will give much thought to it tonight. bellamarie, I couldn't think of the word "procrastination." You write so perfectly about our stories.
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How often do we find ourselves doing this very thing, procrastinating, thinking there will be a more perfect time to say or do something we find important, and want to share with a loved one or friend?  I have a few series collections of Ashton Drake dolls, which has meaning to me, which is why I decided to collect them.  I think about if my granddaughters will even care if I chose to give them to them.  They have seen them behind glass in the cabinet we never open all these years, but like Suyuan Woo's feather, will it/they have the same meaning, once passed down?  I say, no.  This new generation, who as Suyuan points out, "swallows more Coca-Cola than sorrow." doesn't seem to attach themselves to things, except for their cell phones.
I am really appreciating all the stories told here.

Winchesterlady

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I haven’t posted here for a very long time, but I’ve been following your review of The Joy Luck Club and enjoying it. I read the book years ago and it was one of my favorites. I thought you might like this short article from the Guardian newspaper, with Amy Tan talking about her mother and this book... https://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/nov/19/amy-tan-joy-luck-club-guardian-book-club
~ Carol ~

bellamarie

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PatH.,  Oh do I ever like this... 
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Maybe our job is to talk enough, or leave enough of a paper trail, so they have at least some of it when they're ready for it.

Barb, I so enjoyed the client stories in searching for their home to buy.  I do understand their reasoning, and I think Jonathon is correct in using  Feng Shui, to describe it.  I have to have certain furniture one way, windows in a room, and always lots of light coming through my windows during the daytime.  I have to also, have a balance to my rooms, and ONLY I know and feel that particular balance.

Winchesterlady, WELCOME!!!  It is good to see you have been following the discussion.  Thank you for the article it's nice to learn a little bit of Amy Tan's personal thoughts. The caption of the article: 

Amy Tan was on holiday when the news of her mother's heart attack arrived. The fear that she had lost her for ever made the stories pour out
‘The stories poured out. They were what I felt and had to say before it was too late’ … Amy Tan.

And so Amy Tan decides to write about the feather, that Suyuan never got a chance to give to her daughter June.  Regret, is a difficult thing to live with. 

When I returned, I gave my mother a freshwater pearl necklace. She admired it and murmured, "So expensive." It was not, but I knew she was talking about the amount of love it represented.

Isn't this what we all really want in life?  To see the love.  After my grandmother had died, I had gone to visit my grandfather, he took my hand, placed an owl pendant in it, and told me he had given this to my grandmother on their first date.  He said he wanted me to have it.  I looked down at it and it was not a pretty piece of jewelry, it was chipped and it had one large brown gem for an eye.  I still have this pendant, although I knew it was not expensive, I knew the love it represented.  I imagined how happy it must have made my grandmother the day he gave it to her, as a young girl, and how she kept it all those years.  They had been blessed to celebrate their 50th Golden Anniversary, six years before she died.  He died just a couple of years later.

Winchesterlady, I'm thinking this book just may end up being one of my favorites as well. 

Jonathan, Thank you for your kind words.  Popo seems loving, yet cruel, can't wait to discuss that section.

Hats,
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Thinking of death again, I suppose a story can die a forever death if not whispered to others in time. Is that true or false?


I think this is true, because if it's not retold, or is not written down, then how is it possible for it to live on?

And now I like you Hats, need to get off my computer, because we are getting a whopper of a much needed thunder storm.  Lightening just hit somewhere, with the loudest boom of thunder! 

 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

hats

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Still thinking about Philly and stoops, superstitions and of course, stories. An-Mei Su's home is constantly filled with thoughts and words about ghosts. When we think of ghosts, there is the thought of spirits dead and living again slipping through the halls and rooms with the power of invisibility. The more sophisticated of us think of Halloween only. It is a time for fun and pretend.
An-Mei Su's mother slips in and out of her life surrounded with the words of hate said by Popo, her Grandmother, about her Daughter - in - law. I think superstitions have the power to produce pain. There is the power in words or the way words are put together to destroy a living and thriving person. As a little girl I heard the words and maybe my children have heard the words sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me. What an untruth! How have we been allowed to say them over and over throughout the years never recognizing their strength? I doubt if An-Mei Su will find herself ever able to live without hearing that word spoken in reality or in a dream for the rest of her life. I worry that my mind has walked all over the wrong meaning for the stoops. Unbelievable since I love Philly so much.

bellamarie

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Hats, Thank you for your kinds words about my writing.  After reading your post about ghosts, I have to say I believe paranormals do exist, only I see them as spirits, rather than ghosts.  My daughter in law lived in a house that had activity in it, to the point they heard footsteps and voices in their upstairs.  My son, daughter in law, their friend and my granddaughter heard this activity and it scared them so badly they went outside, sat in their car and called 911.  While waiting for the police to come they saw the upstairs lights come on, and shadows.  The police investigated the entire house and found nothing.  They told them it is common for them to get these type of calls in this area of these historical type homes.  I talked to the Science teacher in our school about this, and he said he had done his thesis in college on paranormal activity.  He said through all his extensive research, never once did he find anything to indicate their presence, is there to do harm or frighten anyone, and if you ask them to leave they do so. 

One other incident my husband and I had personally was, we checked into very old bed and breakfast in Leesburg Va.  The bedroom was in the upstairs, we had to bend our heads to walk through the doorway.  It was like a small attic made into a bedroom.  I stood in the room and felt like there were spirits in the room.  I sat on the end of the bed, and immediately felt the presence of a man and woman.  It was such a powerful feeling, not scary, but not comforting for me, I sprang up and walked to the other side of the room.  I told my husband we have to leave this bedroom because I feel the presence of a couple here, and I felt we were being intrusive.  We went down to the manager's office and I told him we needed a refund, and were checking out due to what I experienced.  He told me most people who come here to stay are aware of the paranormal activity, and already are aware the bed and breakfast is known for this activity.  I said, "So, I was not imagining feeling there was a couple in that room?"
He assured me many people have felt their presence.  I told him I felt like this bed and breakfast felt like a funeral home.  He laughed and said I have a very open sense to spirits, and that it was indeed a funeral home, turned into a bed and breakfast.  This man told us many homes in Leesburg have paranormal activity.  When I told my friend who lives in Leesburg the next morning about what happened, and that we ended up not staying at the bed and breakfast, but checked into a Baymont Motel, she laughed, and said she wondered if I knew about the paranormal activity in Leesburg.  Hmmm.... maybe they need to start cleaning their stoops! 

I can't remember the name of that bed and breakfast, but this is an interesting article I wish I had seen before we booked our stay in Leesburg.

It’s been said that Virginia is one of the most haunted states in the nation – and given our history, including the Revolutionary War and Civil War, it’s not too much of a surprise that a few spirits might be hanging around.

https://www.onlyinyourstate.com/virginia/va-haunted-hotels/

I never liked that saying about, Sticks and stones may break your bones, but words will never hurt you.  My mother taught me, and I in turn taught my children and grandchildren, that while bones can heal, words can hurt a lifetime.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Hi, Winchester Lady, it's always nice to see you.  The Guardian article you sent me is a great help; it shows us just what Tan was thinking when starting the book.  And besides, we have the hilarious story of her mother and the fishmonger.

Now to read the next section.  I'll be posting sporadically, as days of thunderstorms are coming my way.

bellamarie

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Our next section The Twenty – Six Malignant Gates gives us the stories of each of the four daughters, Waverly, Lena, Rose, and Jing-Mei (June).  The lead in page gives us an insight to what we will be learning about the mother/daughter relationships: 

“Do not ride you bicycle around the corner,” the mother had told the daughter when she was seven.  “Why not!” protested the girl.  “Because then I cannot see you and you will fall down and cry and I will not hear you.”  “How do you know I’ll fall?” whined the girl.  “It is in a book, The Twenty-Six Malignanat Gates, all the bad things that can happen to you outside the protection of this house.” “I don’t believe you.  Let me see the book.”  “It is written in Chinese.  You cannot understand it.  That is why you must listen to me.”  “What are they, then?” the girl demanded.  “Tell me the twenty-six bad things.”  But the mother sat knitting in silence.  “What twenty-six!” shouted the girl.  The mother still did not answer her.  “You can’t tell me because you don’t know!  You don’t know anything!”  And the girl ran outside, jumped on her bicycle and in her hurry to get away, she fell down before she even reached the corner.

How many times in our childhood, teens and even adulthood did our mother try to warn us to keep us from getting hurt?  As a mother and grandmother, I can’t begin to count the times I have tried to give “fore warning.”  And just like this little girl, my daughter or granddaughter wanted proof.  But, I must confess, I was never brave or bold enough to ever question my mother to her face.  I was a child that trusted what my mother said was sacred, so I was not at all rebellious.  I can remember hearing her say to a sibling, “I am telling you for your own good.”  Or later once they did not listen, she would say, “Well, I tried to tell you, but you had to find out the hard way.”  How do we as mothers know when to let them learn for themselves?  Of course, we do not want them to get hurt or fail, but is it always in our control or their best interest for us to try to prevent it?  Sometimes, I think we have to let them make their own choices, even if we can see the inevitable outcome.  Reading the next four stories from the daughter’s perspective, I can see how in some cases the mother or even the grandmother was trying to protect, guide, warn, advise their daughters, but ultimately, they had to learn for their selves. I don’t think nationality, race, creed, etc., has a difference in teaching our children.  Telling the girl, it is in Chinese so she would not understand, is like saying I know more because I am Chinese.  I would find that a bit hurtful.  I realize there really is no book of twenty-six bad things that can happen to you if you do not listen to your mother, so the mother had to come up with a reason she could not show her the book.  Ironically, she goes out and defies her mother and falls down, just like her mother said.  So, do you suppose the girl had second thoughts about saying, “You don’t know anything!”  Or could she have decided at that point in time that she was going to prove something to her know-it-all mother? 

These next chapters or sections what ever we are calling them, are very insightful, and very emotional to read.  So much hidden hurt between the daughters, mothers and even the grandmothers.  They were difficult for me to read.  They have stayed with me and caused me to think and rethink, about ways I did or did not act, or react to my own mother, or daughter throughout my life. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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I'm with you Bellamarie on this way of protecting is common among mothers of all ethnic backgrounds - for us it was, 'just because I said so' and mostly from my Grandmother where as, my Mother had certain rules and we just obeyed them - like, we could not go past the field on the other side of our neighbor and good family friend's house or we could not use the steep hill to coast down without permission or we could not swim out past the boats or whatever the boundary according to where we were living - and we just did not question it - we really were not about challenging our mother and I do not remember my children challenging me -

Did they disobey? Yep, at times - mostly my youngest who always had a pal and it was he and his pal that got into trouble - I told them to stay out of the houses there were being built in our neighborhood and sure enough he got a nail in the sole of his foot and so he learned the hard way after an emergency trip to the doctor. By and large they obeyed and I just do not remember giving or receiving as a child, many directives. But those that I do remember always had these outlandish reasons why that, even as a child I questioned in my head but I would never say aloud.

Bottom line I do remember all the adults had the 'right' to scold us or guide us or shoo us with many bringing treats out like pitches of water with slices of lemon or fresh peppermint or a tray of fresh made cookies and the Italian family - it was mostly a German neighborhood - but the Italian family would often have a huge pan of just out of the oven pizza for all the kids - and so we really had lots of mothers. When my children were young there were other moms over seeing but not to that same family like atmosphere I remember however, it was more of a community than I see today.

I notice with my grands it was more that the kids would join each other's family for an outing or a movie or a trip to another state or part of the state to see the friend compete in some game rather than overseeing them playing out of doors - but then they did not play out of doors much past about the age of 7 - it was all organized like Little League and Junior Football or the Swimming League and such.   
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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I am way behind now because I was busy with other time consuming stuff. This afternoon looks like a good time to try to catch up some.

ginny

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Welcome, Winchester Lady, how wonderful to see you, and what a great article, thank you so much!  I  have become a new  daily reader of the electronic Guardian and their books sections are the best.

What an article: "My promise made only moments before, I felt, was the reason she was alive, and if I did not fulfill it, she still might die...." (Sound familiar?  But this time, however, it is the author, Amy  Tan, herself, speaking.)

  "I also kept my promise to take her to China, and there I allowed myself to become her little girl, listening to her warnings about the various ways I could ruin my life: being smashed flat on the road, or robbed blind by paying too much for dirty souvenirs, or poisoned by greasy plates and someone's unwashed hands. At times it was nearly unbearable. But I found I could also laugh at how predictable we both were and yet how much there was still to learn about each other."

This, possibly speaks to what I think is the point of the 26 Malignant Gates chapter which we, with a great deal of trepidation,  (at least on my part) are now discussing this week...When I first read it again for this discussion I was flummoxed. I could not see the connection between the pairs of mothers and daughters, and I could not see the connection between  the story for the 26 Gates preface and the pairs, and began to think perhaps I was slipping into some kind of senility, (and I'm not  yet sure that's wrong), but one thing I AM sure of, is that this is a very complex Chinese puzzle box rich story, but I trust our ability to suss it out. Possibly. hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

For the first time ever in any book I had to go back and write  the mother's name and story on the story of the daughters, and I'm bemused that BECAUSE? of the names and all the wild references to symbolism and superstition and culture differences I am also now having a "translation" issue, even though this is written in English.

But I DO have a theory, lame as it may be, it's what I think is an overarching theme, and as soon as I've addressed YOUR great points I will return to it and you all  can straighten me out.

At any rate, welcome and thank you! Hang around, we need your thoughts.
May 13 is our last day of class for the 2023-2024 school year.  Ask about our Summer Reading Opportunities.

ginny

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 Frybabe, I think, despite the relative shortness of the sections, the complexity really makes it very easy to get behind. Looking forward to your thoughts, and Pat's.

Bellamarie, that's a great point on communication and the fact why the 26 Malignant Gates could not be read by the daughter, I had not considered that it might not exist, but the fact that even if it does (how can we find out?) again a language barrier. The language barrier might in fact protect the mother's authority, perhaps it even gives her authority to worry, because I had to laugh over all these warnings, I did this myself. I really did. It's a wonder my poor children venture out in the world. I remember once telling my oldest son, don't  DO that you'll break your neck (I don't remember what it was but it wasn't anything remotely going to break his neck) and his little playmate of the day began to say like a parrot, break your neck, break your neck. hahaha

Where does this fear come from in those of us who don't have a Chinese book to fall back on?

Where did it come from in all 4 mothers?  Do you also feel as I do that each mother seems to be  evincing a fear, when you look at all 4 interactions, to me, the mothers are afraid.

In the first story, the chess story, the mother is afraid that her daughter might not be able to survive life's vicissitudes as the mother  has (this is the mother who was married to the  young man who treated her like a servant, etc.,  but whose inner fortitude and cleverness enabled her to get out of the situation). So this has colored her own feeling that she must give her daughter a   secret weapon: invisible strength.

 At the end of the first story the girl uses that strength, having ironically  dealt her mother a humiliating  defeat in her mother's  dreams of success in America, resulting in a crisis and the mother's saying,  "We not concerning this girl, this girl not concerning us."   

When that story ends, the girl has withdrawn mentally to her safe haven of her mother's gift of invisible strength, viewing the struggle as a chess game to win.

So one wonders how much the experiences of a parent tend to influence their hopes and fears for their own children. In this Pair One, so far, has the parental advice failed or succeeded? I want to watch the interaction between these mothers and daughters, this one is in the rebellion phase, has the mother "let go," or not?

Do you think the mother's pride is  for her daughter only or  for herself, too?
May 13 is our last day of class for the 2023-2024 school year.  Ask about our Summer Reading Opportunities.

ginny

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Barbara, that's an interesting point on the League sports and the kids not outside as they were when we were young. I thought of you with the arranging of furniture in one of the stories in this one, as you mentioned earlier in some of your clients. And I agree also on how there was more of a "community" as we see today, and I wonder why.

Hats, you are right on the "names will never hurt me," and I think perhaps that's one of the themes here, too, the power of language, and the problems when it's not understood for whatever reason.

In my neighborhood in Philly the women washed those steps every morning without fail. If you missed a day people wondered, worried and if you were seen to be ok, thought negatively of your laziness. Lots of negative labels on a set of concrete steps.

The second story The Voice From the Wall reminded me of that row house in Philly too, where you could hear every word next door, but did we actually understand what we heard?

In that story, the 2nd story, we hear from Lena St. Clair, whose mother was the one in the Moon Lady, who wished only to be found. I found this to be, in a sea of tragic stories, the most pitiful. Didn't take long to find out what happened to her. Because she could not speak English for herself, her husband spoke for her, and her daughter translated for her and they made up euphuisms so others would not be upset while she remained, lost forever in grief.  WHY did they do that? I mean really, the baby is born  deformed and dies and the mother says, "How I had given no thought to killing my other son! How I had given no thought to having this baby!"

Other son? There's more?  Again a loss of a child, what horrors these women have come through.

"I could not tell my father what she said.."

Why NOT?

Now here surely is a pitiful situation brought about entirely by the lack of  communication/ translation/ and lack of understanding.

But now how do you see this? The end sentence is: "And the girl grabbed the mother's hand and pulled her thought the wall."

IS the "Moon Lady" finally to be found, do you think? Why and how?
May 13 is our last day of class for the 2023-2024 school year.  Ask about our Summer Reading Opportunities.

ginny

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And Hats was very interesting on the ghosts, and Halloween. WE see it as a child's fun, but back in the day, Hats, do you remember Mischief Night? Where we lived it was not quite as much fun as one now thinks of at Halloween. As I understood it,  (and I never did) on Mischief Night you could go out and damage this or that homeowner's place IF he did not give you treats on Halloween. BUT Mischief Night took place before Halloween? Do I have that right?

SOME people might think of this as vandalism and begging, but now I think Halloween has become somewhat dangerous so is now,  as Barbara talked about, often done in "league" style, at churches, etc.

But back "in the day" where we lived, in PA,  all the store fronts were painted with Halloween scenes, by children of all ages and prizes were given for the best in each age group,  (I expect it was water colors) wonderful creations.  I can see them in my mind's eye today. One day I'm going to paint my own windows, at Halloween,  just to be....crazy.... I guess.

And Halloween, All Hallow's Eve of course brings up thoughts of death, or Resurrection depending on what faith you are; you're right, again, Hats:  Can we rest in our present state knowing when death comes it is always at the right time? "

What an interesting question!

 

On superstition, Jonathan, this is a great point:  That's getting to the heart of the problem. Jing-mei, born in America, talks about her mother's  'Chinese superstitions'. Perhaps it's something else. Perhaps it's Chinese wisdom. Her sisters in China will, perhaps, one day, help her to understand their mother.


What IS superstition, anyway?  A way to control what you fear? You're walking to the store and stop to examine a buttercup and a car careens out of control and had you kept on walking you'd have been killed. So from then on you consider the buttercup a lucky symbol and you can carry that to extremes. When walking you must always stop and look at a buttercup, otherwise you may be killed, etc., etc., etc. ?  Maybe you have a buttercup amulet  you carry with you like a rabbit's foot, hidden? An omen. We may not be Chinese with a long history of omens, but I would be surprised if we had NONE between us here.

Luck!  Do any of you do this type of thing? Or would you rather not admit it? hahahaa  I do hate to say  it in 2018, but I do have these same things going too. When XX happened well for me I was XXX and so to this day I do XXX in hopes YYY will turn out well.

Now you' ve had my take on two of the stories, do you agree or disagree and if so how?

But what of the other two stories? What do you think? How do the daughter's stories relate to the mother's? Do you think all four daughters understand their mother's lives and as they say now "where they are coming from?" If they DO understand it, does it help or hurt?

How does each pair succeed or fail with their goals of fitting into America, and if they fail, why?

Or anything else you'd care to say about this chapter The Twenty Six Malignant Gates,  or the one before it?

 A buttercup for your thoughts. :)
May 13 is our last day of class for the 2023-2024 school year.  Ask about our Summer Reading Opportunities.

BarbStAubrey

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I see the limited communication as the source of family secrets which I see as the product of creating social order by creating levels of allowed participation - as with foot binding the symbol of binding feet is to minimize the value of women to being totally dependent on the men and to limit her life to the distance her bound feet would allow which for many was the bed and a chair - that sense of having no power and no agency over your body much less your needs, wants, dreams or desires does not stop in one or two generations and so I see the mothers still tied to that tradition and some of it passed on to the daughters even if they are in a free Democratic nation - so the emotional needs of a woman are not shared with men who are the controlling powerful members creating the social order of their 'tribe'.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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hmmm just thought - I wonder if the attachment to their book of divination while house shopping allows the women to have a voice - it eliminates the men from assuming all decision making - they now have an outside power that they can both agree upon to help make the decisions. And maybe why the younger folks who were sent here to attend collage dismissed all that - they not only were alone making these decisions but they had attained a sense of worth and value that was not inline with the old traditional social hierarchy. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Barb, your neighborhood sounds like it was a wonderful place to grow up. I lived on a country road with acres and acres of land, and no friends to share my childhood with, only my five sisters, one brother, and two live in cousins.  We had so little rules to follow because we were not allowed to go to friends houses, go swimming, walk down the road where other children lived, no bikes to ride and certainly no sports to be involved in.  We had trees, and we were to spend our days outside under them in the summer.  Yep, as a child I grew up with imaginations of what it would be like to live in a neighborhood where friendships were formed, memories made, sleepovers and sports, playing in a park, having ice cream cones from the ice cream truck,  etc., etc.  I suppose that is how I became a writer...... I wrote about longing to have that kind of a life.

Ginny you asked where Waverly and her mother Lindo's relationship is concerned: 

Quote
Do you think n the mother's pride for her daughter only or herself?

I personally think it is both, the mother has much pride Waverly is her daughter and at nine years old is National chess champion.  But, I can see how Waverly thinks her mother makes it all about herself. 

pg. 99 "Why do you have to use  me to show off?  If you want to show off, then why don't you learn to play chess?"

I am so busted when it comes to showing off and bragging about my children and grandchildren's accomplishments in life.  I am just so proud of them, and yes, much like Lindo, I introduced them to this or that, I spent hours teaching them a sport before they began school or organized sports.  I encouraged, and I drove them to the sports on icy roads, inches of snow, or pouring rain, and I sat  in the stands, or at the ball parks in the freezing cold, boiling temps, poring rain to cheer them on, even at times they never got in the games.  So, as a parent who did all that and more, yes, I think it's more than acceptable to feel proud, not only for them, but for myself as well, as Lindo does.  What parent wouldn't and no child should deny their parent of that right. 

pg. 100 She (Lindo) wore a triumphant smile. "Strongest wind cannot be seen," she said. 

Parents are that invisible strong wind.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

hats

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Good morning Winchester lady, your great love for The Joy Luck Club by Amy Tan inspires me to read on to the end. Thank you very much for the article link. It is full of information I didn't know about Amy Tan. It is good to know she had the chance to share so many stories with her mother.

hats

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Yes Ginny, we share many of the same memories. I will never forget past conversations about our homes in Philly. I still spell the whole name because my father didn't like nicknames. When you mentioned the rabbit foot, I laughed. I can still feel the fur in my hands and see the pretty colors: lime, pink, blue, purple. Those little furry feet were suppose to bring us luck. Yes, yes, yes, I remember Mischief Night. It was the night before Halloween. Mischief did go on, but not as intimidating as today's night before Halloween. The stoops? I especially remember my Grandmother's stoops. Her stoops were kept spotless along with the inside of her home where I enjoyed many beautiful and delicious meals on Thanksgiving and other holidays. At my home, I remember the porch more than the stoops. Perhaps, this is because something ugly happened on the stoops that I don't like to remember. I do remember ladies sweeping the stoops and the sidewalks of our row houses. And yes, I did hear many conversations or parts of conversations whether I wanted to or not. I dream of walking through my row house again one day. Perhaps, it's good that dreams sometimes remain dreams.
bellamarie, I liked your link to the spooky hotels. I always think of Virginia as such a lovely state. I fell in love with Va. Beach during a time with our children. For some reason, I've always thought Virginia must own many pretty, wooded sites. There is a Cat Mystery. I can't think of the author's name. The mysteries take place in Virginia. There are one or two cats. The main lady sleuth is a Post Mistress. That fictional Virginia reminds me of the picture in my mind. Don't worry, I haven't forgotten China. I am literally sleeping with it. I'm trying to see the China of these four mothers. I have thought about listening to a piece of Chinese music at some point during the discussion. Just so I can stay in the mood of the discussion.
Ginny mentioned so many fine points for me to run and rerun through my mind. She said,
Quote
to me the mothers are afraid.
I feel the same way. Maybe there is more fear because their daughters are facing experiences on ground that is strange, not as familiar to the mothers. So the mothers lean on The Twenty - Six Malignant Gates. Their fears written in Chinese and retold to the daughters in translation. I hope that is the correct meaning. I can get ideas backwards after time goes past. I am also still recalling the ghosts. Again, the mothers confront fear. The ghost is what is not spoken. Of course, Amy Tan writes it more clearly than I'm writing it.
Quote
a ghost was anything we were forbidden to talk about.
Barb, your mentioning the Tang Emperor is very interesting. I wondered were there dynasties through which the mothers lived, and is this why you mentioned Tang? I do admit for a while resting my book. The mothers anxieties wore on me. I thought about how my anxieties must have worn on my children whether those worries were spoken or not. The Chinese mothers seem very outspoken. Are they in real life at least most of them? I guess all of you can tell. I like to stay place centered. China is my name at the moment. I did miss the beginning of the discussion. Did I miss seeing a Mahjong table or game? I have no idea what one looks like.

bellamarie

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Hats, you piqued my interest asking about a Mahjong table.  I have never seen one and never knew what the game was so I looked up a few pics.  I especially like the one with all the Chinese women sitting playing.













“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

hats

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Haven't read all the posts. Became fascinated with Bellamarie's lovely mah jong Table and objets D'Art.  Beautiful, meaningful and memorable. Thanks! Also, wanted to mention one of the ten Haunted Hotels. I would feel awfully frightened sleeping in one. Although, I would laugh my head off about the whole situation. So I tried to pick the one that seemed less frightening. I chose as my visit the Glencoe one. There are visits by an elderly lady and a scent of roses throughout the rooms. I had fun reading about you and your husband's experiences there.

bellamarie

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Hats,  I kid you NOT!  I seriously had to leave that room because I sensed there was already a couple in there.  lolol  I was not afraid, I just felt intrusive. 

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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I took some time to put together a synopsis of the four daughter's stories.  The one thing I noticed is there is little to no mention between the mothers or daughters of "love," it is not outwardly said verbally.  It is not customary for Chinese people to verbally express "love." 

Rules of the Game

Waverly and Lindo
I was six when my mother taught me the art of invisible strength. 
My mother imparted her daily truths so she could help my older brothers and me rise above our circumstances.
My older brother Vincent was the one who actually got the chess set.  I watched Vincent and Winston play during Christmas week.  The chess board seemed to hold elaborate secrets waiting to be untangled.  “Let me! Let me!” I begged between games when on brother or the other would sit back with a deep sigh of relief and victory
I read the rules and looked up all the big words in a dictionary.  I borrowed books from the Chinatown library.  I studied each piece, trying to absorb the power each contained.  A little knowledge withheld is a great advantage one should store for future use. That is the power of chess.  It is a game of secrets in which one must show and never tell.  Pg. 97 My mother place my first trophy next to a new plastic chess set that the neighborhood Tao society had given to me.  As she wiped each piece with a soft cloth, she said, “Next time win more, lose less.”  By my ninth birthday, I was a national chess champion.  Pg. 99 “Why do you have to use me to show off?  If you want to show off, then why don’t you learn to play chess?”  pg. 100 I heard my mother speak in a dry voice.  “We not concerning this girl.  This girl not have concerning for us.”  Opposite me was my opponent, two angry black slits.  She wore a triumphant smile.  “Strongest wind cannot be seen,” she said.  I closed my eyes and pondered my next move.


As much as Waverly resisted her mother’s advice and praise, she wanted it just the same.

The Voice from the Wall

Lena and Ying-ying
Pg. 103 I always thought it mattered, to know what is the worst possible thing that can happen to you, to know how you can avoid it, to not be drawn by the magic of the unspeakable.  Because, even as a child, I could sense the unspoken terrors that surrounded our house, the ones that chased my mother until she hid in a secret dark corner of her mind.  And still they found her.  I watched over the years, as they devoured her, piece by piece, until she disappeared and became a ghost. 
Pg. 104 My mother never talked about her life in China, but my father said he saved her from a terrible life there, some tragedy she could not speak about.  My father proudly named her in her immigration papers:  Betty St. Clair, crossing out her given name of Gu Ying-ying.  And then he put down the wrong birthyear, 1916 instead of 1914.  So, with the sweep of a pen, my mother lost her name and became a Dragon instead of a Tiger.
Pg. 105 I knew my mother made up anything to warn me, to help me avoid some unknown danger.  My mother saw danger in everything, even in other Chinese people.
Lena heard the family next door to their apartment constantly fighting, worrying if the girl was dead. Then she realizes this is the way the family is, the fight and go on as nothing happened.  She could see her mother was depressed after losing the baby, and was worried
Pg. 113 My mother was always “resting” and it was as if she had died and become a living ghost. 
Pg. 115 I would watch my mother lying in the bed, babbling to herself as she sat on the sofa. And yet I knew that this, the worst possible thing, would one day stop.  I still saw bad things in my mind, but now I found ways to change them.
And the daughter said, “Now you must come back, to the other side.  And the girl grabbed her mother’s hand and pulled her though the wall.


Does this give us, the reader hope that Lena will save her mother?  Are our imagined fears far worse than reality?  Has Ying-ying gone too far to be saved after losing two sons?  When we hear voices and sounds from another wall, house, yard, etc., can we really trust what we are hearing?  Like Mrs. Sorci and Teresa, fighting nightly because the mother feared here daughter would encounter danger, yet they had great love for each other, how was Lena to know there was really no fear or harm to be concerned about where Teresa was concerned.  If we are always looking for and expecting the worst, is it possible we can bring harm to ourselves by being trapped in our mind of fears like Ying-ying and Lena were?
 
Half and Half

Rose and An-Mei
As proof of her faith, my mother used to carry a small leatherette Bible when she went to the First Chinese Baptist Church every Sunday.  But later, after my mother lost her faith in God, that leatherette Bible wound up wedged under a too-short table leg, a way to correct the imbalance of life.  It’s been there for over twenty years. My mother pretends the Bible isn’t there.  But I know she sees it.  My mother is not the best housekeeper in the world, and after all these years that Bible is still clean white.
Pg. 124 My mother had a superstition, in fact that children were predisposed of certain dangers on certain days, all depending on their Chinese birthdate.  It was explained in a little Chinese book called The Twenty-Six Malignant Gates.
Pg. 125 My mother shout for me to stop them.  And right after I pull Luke off Mark, I look up and see Bing, walking alone to the edge of the reef.  Bing walks one, two, three steps.  His little body is moving so quickly, as if he spotted something wonderful by the water’s edge.  And I think, He’s going to fall in.  I’m expecting it.  And just as I thing this, his feet are already in the air, in a moment of balance, before he splashes into the sea and disappears without leaving so much as a ripple in the water.
Pg. 130 My mother had a look on her face that I’ll never forget.  It was one of complete despair and horror, for losing Bing, for being so foolish as to think she could use faith to change fate. 
I know now that I had never expected to find Bing, just as I know now I will never find a way to save my marriage.  My mother tells me, though, that I should still try. 
And my mother says, “You must think for yourself, what you must do.  If someone tells you, then you are not trying.” 
I think about Bing, how I knew he was in danger, how I let it happen.  I think about my marriage, how I had seen the signs, really, I had.  But I just let it happen.  And I think now that ate is shaped half by expectation, half by inattention.  But somehow, when you lose something you love, faith takes over.  You have to pay attention to what you lost.  You have to undo the expectation.  My mother she still pays attention to it.  That Bible under the table, I know she sees it.  I remember seeing her write in it before she wedged it under.  I lift the table and slide the Bible out.  I put the Bible on the table, flipping quickly through the pages, because I know it’s there.  On the page before the New Testament begins, there’s a section called “Deaths,” and that’s where she wrote “Bing Hsu” lightly, in erasable pencil.


Can you really lose your faith?  I think I know people who have decided to stop practicing their faith after a loved one dies, but I have also seen where a loved one’s death brought them closer to their faith. 

Two Kinds

Jing-Mei and Suyuan
My mother believed you could be anything you wanted to be in America.  “Of course, you can be prodigy, too,” my mother told me when I was nine.  “You can be best anything.”
At first my mother thought I could be a Chinese Shirley Temple.
In all of my imaginings, I was filled with a sense that I would soon become perfect.  My mother and father would adore me.  I would be beyond reproach.  I would never feel the need to sulk for anything.  But sometimes the prodigy in me became impatient.  “If you don’t hurry up and get me out of here. I’m disappearing for good,” it warned. “And then you’ll always be nothing.”
Pg. 134  And after seeing my mother’s disappointed face once again, something inside of me began to die.  I hated the tears, the raised hopes and failed expectations.  Before going to bed that night, I looked in the mirror above the bathroom sink and when I saw only my face staring back__and that it would always be this ordinary face__I began to cry,  Such a sad, ugly girl!  I made high-pitched noises lie a crazed animal, trying to scratch out the face in the mirror. 
And then I saw what seemed to be the prodigy side of me__ because I had never seen that face before.  I looked a t my reflection, blinking so I could see more clearly.  The girl staring back at me was angry, powerful.  This girl and I were the same.  I had new thoughts, willful thoughts, or rather thoughts filled with lost of won’ts.  I won’t let her change me, I promised myself.  I won’t be what I’ not.
Pg. 142  “You want me to be someone that I’m not!”  I sobbed.  I’ll never be the kind of daughter you want me to be!”  “Only two kinds of daughters,” she shouted in Chinese.  “Those who are obedient and those who follow their own mind!  Only one kind of daughter can live in this house.  Obedient daughter!”  “Then I wish I wasn’t your daughter.  I wish you weren’t my mother.”  I shouted.  As I said these things I got scared.  It felt like worms and toads and slimy things crawling out of my chest.  But it also felt good, as if this awful side of me had surfaced at last.  “Too late to change this,” said my mother shrilly.  “Then I wish I’d never been born!”  I shouted.  “I wish I were dead!  Like them.”
Suyuan and Jing-Mei never spoke about the disastrous piano recital. 
All that remained unchecked, like a betrayal that was now unspeakable.  So, I never found a way to ask her why she had hoped for something so large that failure was inevitable. 
Pg. 143 So she surprised me.  A few years ago, she offered to give me the piano, for my thirtieth birthday.  I had not played in all those years.  I saw the offer as a sign of forgiveness, a tremendous burden removed. 
Last week I sent a tuner over to my parents’ apartment and had the piano reconditioned, for purely sentimental reasons.  My mother had died a few months before and I had been getting things in order for my father, a little bit at the time.  I found some old Chinese silk dresses, the kind with little slits up the sides.  I rubbed the old silk against my skin, the wrapped them in tissue paper and decided to take them home with me.


The two songs Jing-Mei played, “Perfectly Contented” and “Pleading Child,” were two halves of the same song.
Jing-Mei struggled all her life to please her mother, only she had to at some point save herself from becoming someone she was not, someone her mother imagined her to be, her prodigy, all the while forgetting to allow her to be who she was, her daughter.

All of these mothers and daughters clearly do love each other.  The mothers do want what is best for their daughters, but.... do they even know what that is?  These daughters were raised in America, they know very little about the Chinese way.  The mothers seem to have so much fear, and so little trust in their daughters being able to make their own life choices.  As little girls the mothers job is to provide them as much opportunity to help them in ways that will give them the best future possible, but.... have they done so in such a way its made them feel their mother could not or would not accept them for who they were, rather than who they wanted them to be? 

I have an only daughter, and two sons.  My daughter grew up with hearing contantly, "Oh, you look JUST like your Mom."  She and I were very close, but I could tell she grew tired of feeling like she was in my shadow.  She chose to move from our hometown of Ohio to Florida when she was twenty-one years old.  I know she needed to get away from me and learn who she really was.  She has found at the age of forty-five, she is much like me, and seems very happy in her own skin.  Without her moving away, I don't think she could have ever learned who she really was, because I was so much a part of her life.  I just loved/love her so much I wanted only the best for her.  She rebelled ALOT, and went through some pretty tough years until she finally did move to Florida.  I was pleased to hear Barbara Walters openly admit she and her daughter love each other, but must live far apart, because they can only take each other in small doses.  My daughter and I are exactly like that.  We talk almost every day on the phone, but if we visit each other, we need our space after a few days.  We both say, "I love you," before we hang up with each phone call.  I love her with all my heart and she needs to hear that, as do I.  My boys hug me and say, "I love you," every time they leave my house or I leave theirs, and I always say it too.  I just felt that was missing in all these chapters we have read so far.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

hats

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Bellamarie, I wonder did you feel a sense of contentment in the rooms. Earlier I spoke about loving a sense of place. Now, as I read back over the posts and the book there is more of an appreciation of Amy Tan as an writer and author. My thoughts are telling me it is impossible to separate the place, China and America, from the women mainly the mothers. Their identity broils forever with the snatched swan and the leavings of one feather. The mothers have an extra task. They have to present two places, both important, to their daughters. And as Ginny wrote there is the language or communication problem and fear factor. How is it possible to leave home and not leave home at the same time? There is no way to not remember China. There is no way not to also remember the treatment here in America. So there are two different story strands made up of all sorts of colors. Popo seems cruel because she tells An-mei to forget her mother. To remember her mother was to spit on An-mei's father's grave.
I don't remember. What makes Popo so cold and cruel? Perhaps, she should have never left her country. At times, big decisions are so hard that we choose the wrong fork in the road.  Thinking of Winchesterlady's link. I wanted to read more about Amy Tan. https://www.shondaland.com/inspire/books/a12919749/amy-tan-interview/

bellamarie

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Hats, Yes,  there was a feeling that the couple in that room was a happily married, older couple, and that I was intruding in their space.  People may think it sounds crazy, but, it is what I felt, and I had no prior knowledge of the place having any spirit activity, so it was my personal instincts I felt.  Just like feeling the place was a funeral home, before I even knew that. 

I agree, the Chinese mothers are dealing with so much more than the daughters, due to leaving their homeland China. The communication gap is there with their daughters.  Up and until now, there is no indication the daughters were able to understand and appreciate their heritage of China, since they were born in America.  The entire Popo story just creeped me out.  Popo decided to outcast the daughter, and turn the granddaughter against her own mother.  I was glad the daughter at least knew her mother was forced out of her life, instead of leaving her willingly.  No matter how much Popo tried to stop her from loving her mother, she never did.

Thank you for the article, I love getting to know more about the author.   
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
great synopsis of each of the mother's and their daughters Bellamarie - and you nailed each - my thinking is it is difficult to pass anything on to our children - so much of what is socially the way of things changes in 30 and 35 years - If a daughter is born when your in your early 20s by the time she is 8,9 and 10 a mother is in her early 30s and to pass along not just the history of what happened but how folks thought and what were the circumstances we all adjusted to at the time is so different from generation to generation.

Any mother that has in her memory trauma is really in a difficult situation - even for her own sake she does not want to share how she really felt. Also, in some cases telling the story as if there is a bad guy' does not seem right and so the teller adjusts the story so as to not share their feelings at the time or thoughts since - difficult difficult. Just the telling often brings back the trauma as a flashback - no wonder most of the returning WWII GIs just wanted to get on with it and not share their war stories.

Sad to think though because of a traumatic childhood experience that should preclude any woman from having their own child and yet, it does bring with it the need to share the family history.   

Just the idea of spitting on something or at someone has little meaning today - we just do not use spitting as a way to express contempt and yet, I do remember as a child this was a typical way many expressed their disrespect as contempt for another.

Seems these mothers do not allow their daughters to think and decide but have specific and high expectations for the daughters to accomplish the specifics, which puts the daughters in a difficult position if they are to think and act for themselves.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe